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Marvin S
09-16-2010, 10:19 PM
The previous thread got waylaid quickly but there were some observations posted that I believe invalid. While I have some info on most public professions in this state I am most familiar with education.

The School District I live in just adopted it's budget for the next year:

Average salary for certificated staff (meaning those staff member with teaching credentials) is $66,650.
Average cost of benefits is $25.000 (note this is without the district contributing anything to the employees retirement plan which is all assumed by the state, I believe there is a minimal contribution by the employee)
Average contractual hours are 69% of an individual receiving 3 weeks vacation in the private sector & 10 days sick leave.
Educators can retire after 30 years at 60% of their top 2 years salary (which includes just about anything they can get tacked on)

For this the public generally receives a product that is deficient in math & science (as few are qualified to teach the subjects) in a nation that is falling behind the rest of the world on the curve.
Educators generally come from the lower 25 percentile of those who take the SAT & graduate from college. As an example: Engineers, Doctors, scientist generally come from the upper 15 percentile of those who take the SAT & graduate from college.

In reading "A Patriot's History of the United States" there was a comment about the original education money coming from the feds. It was meant to prop up the Science & Engineering communities to keep us competitive in world markets, we see what happened to that :(. BTW, anyone who hasn't read this book needs to, it is very informative :cool:.

I'd like to hear of others experiences within the public realm!! Facts & numbers please ;-).

depittydawg
09-17-2010, 12:04 AM
The previous thread got waylaid quickly but there were some observations posted that I believe invalid. While I have some info on most public professions in this state I am most familiar with education.

The School District I live in just adopted it's budget for the next year:

Average salary for certificated staff (meaning those staff member with teaching credentials) is $66,650.
Average cost of benefits is $25.000 (note this is without the district contributing anything to the employees retirement plan which is all assumed by the state, I believe there is a minimal contribution by the employee)
Average contractual hours are 69% of an individual receiving 3 weeks vacation in the private sector & 10 days sick leave.
Educators can retire after 30 years at 60% of their top 2 years salary (which includes just about anything they can get tacked on)

For this the public generally receives a product that is deficient in math & science (as few are qualified to teach the subjects) in a nation that is falling behind the rest of the world on the curve.
Educators generally come from the lower 25 percentile of those who take the SAT & graduate from college. As an example: Engineers, Doctors, scientist generally come from the upper 15 percentile of those who take the SAT & graduate from college.

In reading "A Patriot's History of the United States" there was a comment about the original education money coming from the feds. It was meant to prop up the Science & Engineering communities to keep us competitive in world markets, we see what happened to that :(. BTW, anyone who hasn't read this book needs to, it is very informative :cool:.

I'd like to hear of others experiences within the public realm!! Facts & numbers please ;-).

I've never worked in the Public Sector so I won't comment on it. But I have worked in the private sector for large corporations most of my adult life. And I can attest that there are MANY people grossly overcompensated in the private sector. There are also many who are under compensated. No system is perfect. I'm sure public positions are no different.

It has been my experience that except for the very top of the corporate ladder, things have a way of balancing out over time. :p

badbullgator
09-17-2010, 06:21 AM
I've never worked in the Public Sector so I won't comment on it. But I have worked in the private sector for large corporations most of my adult life. And I can attest that there are MANY people grossly overcompensated in the private sector. There are also many who are under compensated. No system is perfect. I'm sure public positions are no different.

It has been my experience that except for the very top of the corporate ladder, things have a way of balancing out over time. :p

But the private sector is spending THEIR MONEY (most of the time barring bailouts and such) and the public sector is spending OUR MONEY. You (private sector) are free to do what ever you want with YOUR money, over pay, under pay, I don't care it is YOUR money. The private sector only has to answer to its own stake holders. Spending MY money to run YOUR business (public sector) is another matter.

Terri
09-17-2010, 07:17 PM
My husband is a Civil Engineer working for our state. His has made less money that Engineers in the private sector and in other public sector jobs. Several years ago the state promised to bring his salary in line with other Engineers who work for cities and counties in our state. It was going to take four years to balance out. A couple years he did get a raise. Then some employees got a raise and he did not because of his classification, supervisor, which he does not supervise anyone he is really a specialist. Only several people in the whole state do the same job as him. His title was supervisor specialist, until his last evaluation when the specialist was dropped. All this to help balance the state books. Now he has three Fridays a month off, 15% pay cut. Civil Engineers who work for our state transportation are Federally funded so it does not affect the state's general funds. Why has he worked for the state for 22 years, if he can make more money in the private? When he started working for the state he was proud to be working for one of the top transportation departments in the world. Now he has put so much time in. At his age it is too risky to start over. Retirement is right around the corner.

As for as teachers being at the bottom, I'm sure there are many. Our son is going to college to be a teacher, he has always been at the top of his peers in IQ and on the state tests. What will make him a great teacher is not how smart he is, but that he has a real passion for teaching children. He started teaching swim lessons when he was 14 years old. Now he is 21, he is the cities year round pool manager. He is going to school part time to finish his education. He has 40 employees under him and makes under $14 per hour with no benefits.

The public is getting a bargain and we (parents and son) pay taxes, too.


Terri

luvmylabs23139
09-17-2010, 07:42 PM
Personally I think teachers are way over paid. They have more days off, all summer off and a shorter work day.
I'm tired of busting my butt to pay for them. By the way my brother is a teacher in the Bronx and teaches ESL. I told him ESL is total BS and taxpayers should not be paying for that crap.

YardleyLabs
09-17-2010, 08:22 PM
I think there is a lot of variability. Over time, in most of the country, public employee salaries have increased faster than private sector salaries and public sector benefits have remained much higher than private sector benefits. While 20-30 years ago, public sector employees were grossly underpaid, that is no longer the case. In one school district near me, teachers are involved in a job action after working for a year without s contract. The union proposal would bring the top salary to 110,000/year over the next four years and the average salary to 101,000. This excludes the value of a very generous pension and the value of a luxury health plan with $10/visit co-pays and no employee contributions to premiums. The district's offer is for slightly higher pay levels but with teacher assumption of 18% of health premium costs over the next five years. In my mind, both are out of line.

I worked in the public sector until 1980, when I moved to the private sector. When I left government I lied about my salary. I told people I was earning less than I actually was so that I would have a better opportunity to get the type of job I wanted and I took a job with a salary cut of 25%. Ultimately, I ended up earning much more in the private sector than I would have in the public sector for a job with less responsibility and an easier schedule. In the public sector I worked an average of 80 hours/week and controlled about $1.5 billion/year with 140 direct staff, for a salary of about $50,000. In the private sector I worked about 60 hours per week, earning many times that amount while controlling a revenue stream of about $10 million/year with less than 100 employees. In my experience, public sector jobs overpay people in the middle relative to comparable private sector positions. People at the highest levels are paid a small fraction of their private sector counterparts, and people at the lower levels are paid less, but with better benefits.

subroc
09-17-2010, 09:20 PM
http://www.fedjobs.com/pay/pay.html

charly_t
09-17-2010, 09:38 PM
Personally I think teachers are way over paid. They have more days off, all summer off and a shorter work day.
I'm tired of busting my butt to pay for them. By the way my brother is a teacher in the Bronx and teaches ESL. I told him ESL is total BS and taxpayers should not be paying for that crap.

Wow, I like most of what you say but teachers are the most over-worked people I know.
Their day does not stop when the kids go home. Their required continuing education for themselves takes a lot of theirSummer time.

Brad Turner
09-17-2010, 09:53 PM
This is the salary scale for sullivan county, TN. Try raising a family of four on this, without having to supplement family income during your "vacation" time.

yrs BS MA MA+45 ED. S ED. D
0 32,096 35,306 38,515 39,799 41,725
1 32,481 35,730 38,977 40,277 42,226
2 32,872 36,158 39,446 40,761 42,733
3 33,266 36,592 39,920 41,249 43,246
4 33,665 37,031 40,399 41,745 43,765
5 34,069 37,476 40,883 42,245 44,290
6 34,477 37,926 41,374 42,753 44,821
7 34,892 38,440 41,869 43,266 45,359
8 35,474 39,160 42,373 43,785 47,198
9 36,814 40,386 43,960 44,850 47,765
10 37,255 40,871 44,488 45,388 48,338
11 37,701 41,362 45,021 45,932 48,938
12 38,255 41,952 45,561 46,483 49,504
13 38,954 42,688 46,108 47,041 50,200
14 40,262 43,732 47,201 47,607 51,240
15 40,745 44,256 47,767 48,177 51,853
16 41,235 44,787 48,340 48,756 52,476
17 41,235 44,787 48,340 48,756 52,476
18 41,235 44,787 48,340 48,756 52,476
19 41,396 44,949 48,502 49,083 53,218
20 41,728 45,335 48,920 49,340 53,351
21 41,728 45,335 48,920 49,340 53,351
22 41,728 45,335 48,920 49,340 53,351
23 41,728 45,335 48,920 49,340 53,351
24 41,890 45,497 49,082 49,501 53,512
25 42,229 45,940 49,506 49,932 53,512
26 42,229 45,940 49,506 49,932 53,512
27 42,229 45,940 49,506 49,932 53,512
28 42,229 45,940 49,506 49,932 53,512
29 42,229 45,940 49,506 49,932 53,512
30 42,391 46,101 49,669 50,095 53,512

Terri
09-17-2010, 09:53 PM
I think there is a lot of variability. Over time, in most of the country, public employee salaries have increased faster than private sector salaries and public sector benefits have remained much higher than private sector benefits. While 20-30 years ago, public sector employees were grossly underpaid, that is no longer the case. In one school district near me, teachers are involved in a job action after working for a year without s contract. The union proposal would bring the top salary to 110,000/year over the next four years and the average salary to 101,000. This excludes the value of a very generous pension and the value of a luxury health plan with $10/visit co-pays and no employee contributions to premiums. The district's offer is for slightly higher pay levels but with teacher assumption of 18% of health premium costs over the next five years. In my mind, both are out of line.

I worked in the public sector until 1980, when I moved to the private sector. When I left government I lied about my salary. I told people I was earning less than I actually was so that I would have a better opportunity to get the type of job I wanted and I took a job with a salary cut of 25%. Ultimately, I ended up earning much more in the private sector than I would have in the public sector for a job with less responsibility and an easier schedule. In the public sector I worked an average of 80 hours/week and controlled about $1.5 billion/year with 140 direct staff, for a salary of about $50,000. In the private sector I worked about 60 hours per week, earning many times that amount while controlling a revenue stream of about $10 million/year with less than 100 employees. In my experience, public sector jobs overpay people in the middle relative to comparable private sector positions. People at the highest levels are paid a small fraction of their private sector counterparts, and people at the lower levels are paid less, but with better benefits.

I can not speak for everyone, but I can compare my husband with a masters degree, a seismic specialist, and 22 years makes as an Civil Engineer working for the state with what our daughter's friend makes. Her friend has under fives years, assistant Engineer, and a BS degree. The young guy makes about $15,000.00 less base pay, has the same benefits, and he gets paid for working overtime. He told us that many private firms are paying more and offering better benefits to attract and keep the better Engineers from going to work for the state. He would like to work for the state because the types of jobs you get to do and be involved in are greater than what he gets to do in the private sector. He designs parking lots verses interstates. He just does not want to take a pay cut and with talk of reducing benefits for state employees he doubts he will even try for a state Engineering job now that he has a monthly mortgage payment.


Terri

dnf777
09-17-2010, 09:54 PM
Wow, I like most of what you say but teachers are the most over-worked people I know.
Their day does not stop when the kids go home. Their required continuing education for themselves takes a lot of theirSummer time.

Not to bust on teachers, but many of us have much more continuing ed requirements, and don't get all summer off to complete it!

Like any profession, there are some who are overworked and underpaid, and some who are underworked and overpaid.

On a related note, I don't think anyone's retirement wage should be based on the last year or two of padded, overtimed, stipened, inflated pay. A fair percentage of BASE PAY is how the military does it, and that seems fair.

We have bus drivers in Pittsburgh making more than they did most of their careers, except for the last two, when they pulled overtime to pad their retirement. No wonder the fund is going under.

T. Mac
09-17-2010, 11:04 PM
More than anything, I think the salaries of public employees have become skewed, in part because of union envolvement and also based on public sympathy.

Consider
Teachers. Starting salary for Sacramento is around $41k per year. Requirements are possession of a valid teaching credential which requires a BA degree plus classes in education and a student teaching assignment all paid by the would be teacher.

Firefighters. Starting salary for Sacramento is $53.5k per year. Requirements are a 16 week acadamy training during which time they are paid $3,185 per month, and a high school diploma or GED plus 20 college units which include EMT courses. A EMT certificate is also required. Paramedic certificates add about $2500 /year to salary. Also get special retirement plans

Police cadet: Starting salary of $3680 monthly while going through the police acadamy. High scholl diploma or GED with 60 college units.

Police officer : Starting salary $56k. Requires graduation from ploice acadamy. Also get special retirement plans

Sanitation worker (refuse truck operator) Starting salary $41k. Requirements 3 years experience in the operation of trucks, tractors, or other types of public works equipment.

Terri
09-18-2010, 12:22 AM
Personally I think teachers are way over paid. They have more days off, all summer off and a shorter work day.
I'm tired of busting my butt to pay for them. By the way my brother is a teacher in the Bronx and teaches ESL. I told him ESL is total BS and taxpayers should not be paying for that crap.

I would rather pay for some one to learn English than for me to have to learn another language. My mom told me the other day she went to the local Sears store, located in the mid west, and the signs were all in Spanish. When she told the clerk she did not understand the sign, she was told some people who come to the store only speak Spanish. When my mom told her she only speaks English the clerk found some one else to assist my mom. Also I was listening to the radio the other day. A painter called in and he told the host of the show that when he goes to look for painting jobs you have to be able to speak Spanish to get a job. When a person wants to learn English I think it is a good thing because I'm too old and too happy just speaking English. When someone want to learn English it shows that they want to adapt to our culture. Not all people in ESL classes are here illegally. Should we also be against legal immigration? I'm against illegal immigration, but I have no problem with legal immigration. Nothing wrong with the best and the brightest coming from other countries. My family came here for a better life, four generations ago. The first generation learned English and made sure their kids learned English. My grandparents, the first native born Americans, learned proper English at school, by the time my parents came along all they spoke in their homes was English. My grandparents could hardly remember a word of their first language when I was a kid. They wanted to get ahead and that meant learn the language and never look back to the old country. Be American and die for her if the need arises. My grandfathers both served in WWII, they were not drafted, both were in their 30's with wives and kids. The old countries, Germany and Italy, were our enemies.

Terri

dnf777
09-18-2010, 05:45 AM
I'm against illegal immigration, but I have no problem with legal immigration. Nothing wrong with the best and the brightest coming from other countries.
Terri

It really needs to be limited to special skills and expertise nowadays. Its not like the 19th century, when we had vast open spaces. Look around at urban sprawl. WE'RE FULL!

Unless we want to see more and more wilderness fall to the dozer blade, we need to put the brakes on population growth, else we end up like Japan. Wall to wall development, crowding, and more leash laws.

subroc
09-18-2010, 07:05 AM
http://www.federalnewsradio.com/?nid=35&sid=2055749

TN_LAB
09-18-2010, 07:39 AM
This is the salary scale for sullivan county, TN. Try raising a family of four on this, without having to supplement family income during your "vacation" time.

yrs BS MA MA+45 ED. S ED. D
0 32,096 35,306 38,515 39,799 41,725
1 32,481 35,730 38,977 40,277 42,226
2 32,872 36,158 39,446 40,761 42,733
3 33,266 36,592 39,920 41,249 43,246
4 33,665 37,031 40,399 41,745 43,765
5 34,069 37,476 40,883 42,245 44,290
6 34,477 37,926 41,374 42,753 44,821
7 34,892 38,440 41,869 43,266 45,359
8 35,474 39,160 42,373 43,785 47,198
9 36,814 40,386 43,960 44,850 47,765
10 37,255 40,871 44,488 45,388 48,338
11 37,701 41,362 45,021 45,932 48,938
12 38,255 41,952 45,561 46,483 49,504
13 38,954 42,688 46,108 47,041 50,200
14 40,262 43,732 47,201 47,607 51,240
15 40,745 44,256 47,767 48,177 51,853
16 41,235 44,787 48,340 48,756 52,476
17 41,235 44,787 48,340 48,756 52,476
18 41,235 44,787 48,340 48,756 52,476
19 41,396 44,949 48,502 49,083 53,218
20 41,728 45,335 48,920 49,340 53,351
21 41,728 45,335 48,920 49,340 53,351
22 41,728 45,335 48,920 49,340 53,351
23 41,728 45,335 48,920 49,340 53,351
24 41,890 45,497 49,082 49,501 53,512
25 42,229 45,940 49,506 49,932 53,512
26 42,229 45,940 49,506 49,932 53,512
27 42,229 45,940 49,506 49,932 53,512
28 42,229 45,940 49,506 49,932 53,512
29 42,229 45,940 49,506 49,932 53,512
30 42,391 46,101 49,669 50,095 53,512

Folks working at the bank don't make this kind of money. Same goes for the accounting firm I used to work for. And let's not even go there with the benefits package.

badbullgator
09-18-2010, 08:15 AM
Folks working at the bank don't make this kind of money. Same goes for the accounting firm I used to work for. And let's not even go there with the benefits package.

I agree. A laboratory technologist, with a lot more requirments than a teacher, makes about the same as do office managers, and many other professions. When did starting at 32K and going up to 52K become sub standard earnings for someone with a BA that only works 9 months? As far as teachers days not ending when the kids go home....come on the day does not end for most profession when they go home. Teachers love to tell you how much more they work when in reality it is the same in most professions with the exception of having the summer, Christmas, and spring break off..... boo freaking hoo

luvmylabs23139
09-18-2010, 08:36 AM
. Should we also be against legal immigration? I'm against illegal immigration, but I have no problem with legal immigration. Nothing wrong with the best and the brightest coming from other countries. My family came here for a better life, four generations ago. The first generation learned English and made sure their kids learned English. My grandparents, the first native born Americans, learned proper English at school, by the time my parents came along all they spoke in their homes was English. My grandparents could hardly remember a word of their first language when I was a kid. They wanted to get ahead and that meant learn the language and never look back to the old country. Be American and die for her if the need arises. My grandfathers both served in WWII, they were not drafted, both were in their 30's with wives and kids. The old countries, Germany and Italy, were our enemies.

Terri

I'm first generation LEGAL immigrant. I moved here when I was 4 years old.
I think the big difference is that those who come here legally whether by their choice (an adult) or their parents' choice make a great effort to assimmilate ASAP to their new country. Or maybe that is the way it was 40 years ago.
We never expected anything special. The attitude was we moved here so we should do everything to conform to our new country not that the new country should change because we moved here!

depittydawg
09-18-2010, 10:05 AM
I'm first generation LEGAL immigrant. I moved here when I was 4 years old.
I think the big difference is that those who come here legally whether by their choice (an adult) or their parents' choice make a great effort to assimmilate ASAP to their new country. Or maybe that is the way it was 40 years ago.
We never expected anything special. The attitude was we moved here so we should do everything to conform to our new country not that the new country should change because we moved here!

Most people who come here illegally are here for only one reason. A JOB. Take away their job, and they will quietly go back home. Simple problem, simple answer. It won't happen because the people who control the congress, WANT THE ILLEGAL LABOR IN THE COUNTRY.

Terri
09-18-2010, 11:35 AM
I was not trying to get off topic with legal verses illegal immigration. That is a whole different can of worms. Just trying to make the point that ESL classes are a good thing. If you choose to come here to live I would love you to know how to speak English. At the schools they pay teachers to teach Spanish, German, French, Russian, and the list goes on at the University level, so what is so wrong with paying for people to learn English?

Terri

dixidawg
09-18-2010, 11:49 AM
How did my grand parents generation learn to speak English without all the ESL classes?

Where there is a will, there is a way. If the family values demand English, then English it shall be.

Terri
09-18-2010, 02:31 PM
How did my grand parents generation learn to speak English without all the ESL classes?

Where there is a will, there is a way. If the family values demand English, then English it shall be.

The family values can demand it all they want, but you still have to have someone to teach you how to speak and read English properly. My grandparents were tutored by the nuns. These women had/made the time to work one on one with kids, before and after school. My grandmother had to repeat first grade because the language was harder for her, but then she told me she became a very good student after that experience.
ESL is just a label the school districts use. There are all kinds of labels used in the school to describe classes. When I was in school they had the smart class, the slow class, and the tiny class. It is just a label. We use to call people retarded now they are special, it is just a label. When my kids were in grade school and high school I did not want them to work at a slower pace just because someone else needed more help.

The fact is not everyone was blessed to have English as a first language and not everyone learns at the same rate or will achieve the same no matter how hard they try. The same with dogs. Every dog is different. My dog has a first time Labrador owner and this is my first time training for hunting. She has all the natural talent, but I'm just not a good enough handler to get her to the top. I have a will for her to be great, but I still need a good teacher to help her. Same with learning English, you do need a good teacher, especially if your parents are first timers.

Terri

dixidawg
09-18-2010, 03:45 PM
Do you not believe that English immersion programs can have better outcomes than traditional ESL programs? There are very big differences in the two besides what label they are given.

Terri
09-18-2010, 07:27 PM
If you are asking me which program I like, then my answer is the program that gets the job done, teaching everyone who wants to live in this country how to speak English. You can call it what you want it is still just a label. ESL is just English as a Second Language program. Some teachers, districts, and states do a better job of teaching required subjects. The names are always changing. I'm not in education, but I did take education classes back in my college days and that is what one of my professors taught us about educational labels. I always thought the education professors were the best teachers, but the education students all drove me crazy. I'm sure that is why I did not major in the subject.

Terri

Gerry Clinchy
09-19-2010, 10:53 AM
Do you not believe that English immersion programs can have better outcomes than traditional ESL programs? There are very big differences in the two besides what label they are given.

Young children are exceptionally adept at learning a second language!

Short story to illustrate: a friend was a teacher at a military-based school & was told to ONLY speak English to the children in her class because that would compel the children to learn English. After a couple of months, she was called in by a superior and "accused" of speaking French to her students instead ... because most of the children in her class were now speaking French. The accusation had no basis since the teacher did not speak French! She could only speak to her students in English! The children, themselves, in order to play and interact had taught themselves French. (since the French-speaking students outnumbered the English-speaking students, the French became the language the group adopted).

It becomes harder to learn a second language as we grow older, so the key is starting children with a "second language" as soon as possible.

As a child, my grandmother spoke only Italian, and no English. Everyone else in the family, however, spoke English (and without any accent as well). Before starting school, I could speak both languages interchangeably ... because I spent a lot of time with my grandmother. Once I started school I gradually lost my fluidity in Italian. However, I found out later that the grammar remained in the remote areas of my brain, and made it much easier for me to learn Latin, French and German in high school and college.

Yes, I believe that "emersion" and "compelling" children to learn English is as effective as having classes. I suspect that the problem in some locations is that there are more non-English-speaking children in a classroom than there are English-speaking children.

If we want to see the results of having "two languages" ... just ask how well that works in Quebec.

Marvin S
09-19-2010, 12:52 PM
My husband is a Civil Engineer employed by our state. His has made less money that Engineers in the private sector and in other public sector jobs. Several years ago the state promised to bring his salary in line with other Engineers who work for cities and counties in our state. It was going to take four years to balance out. A couple years he did get a raise. Then some employees got a raise and he did not because of his classification, supervisor, which he does not supervise anyone he is really a specialist. Only several people in the whole state do the same job as him. His title was supervisor specialist, until his last evaluation when the specialist was dropped. All this to help balance the state books. Now he has three Fridays a month off, 15% pay cut. Civil Engineers who work for our state transportation are Federally funded so it does not affect the state's general funds. Why has he worked for the state for 22 years, if he can make more money in the private? When he started working for the state he was proud to be working for one of the top transportation departments in the world. Now he has put so much time in. At his age it is too risky to start over. Retirement is right around the corner.

All opinions though I did fix one part :). You don't talk about what state you are from so we have no base to see if you might have a grievance! What numbers do you base your private sector claim on? I believe we have several engineers who frequent PP so can add credibility or $^$##^&* to your claim.

I for example know that teachers in SD receive considerably less in the rural areas, but are still paid quite well compared to those in the community. They also turn out a superior product!




As for as teachers being at the bottom, I'm sure there are many. Our son is going to college to be a teacher, he has always been at the top of his peers in IQ and on the state tests. What will make him a great teacher is not how smart he is, but that he has a real passion for teaching children. He started teaching swim lessons when he was 14 years old. Now he is 21, he is the cities year round pool manager. He is going to school part time to finish his education. He has 40 employees under him and makes under $14 per hour with no benefits.

I sense a little parental pride but that don't stand up well when negotiating a contract with a group of those who do not share your son's passion :confused:.


The public is getting a bargain and we (parents and son) pay taxes, too.


Terri

Again an opinion backed with no substance ;-).

depittydawg
09-19-2010, 01:51 PM
.

I'd like to hear of others experiences within the public realm!! Facts & numbers please ;-).

While many people seem to scornfully focus on Public employees compensation as compared to the private sector, I'd suggest that public employees represent the last vestige of the once formidable American Worker. The decline of worker compensation in the private sector is the problem. We've seen a generation pass by as the attack on the US worker has steadfastly erroded the portion of profit that is allocated to workers pay and benefits. At the same time we've seen the rank and power of the very wealthy grow. The Greatest Generation of American's not only stood up to and defeated the Nazi's and Japanese; they also stood up to and defeated their generations versions of Wall Street Barons.

Unfortunately the tables have turned on us again, and the US worker is in a serious decline. The answer is NOT to dumb down the public sector to match the dwindling compensation of the private sector. The solution is to rejuvinate the Private workforce and take back what has been lost over the last 30 years.

http://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/rlawrence/Lawrence%20for%20Brandeis.pdf
Grouping earnings by education reveals for example that from 2000 to 2006, an
astonishingly small fraction of workers—just the 3.4% with doctorates and professional
graduate degrees (JD’s, MBAs, & MDs) enjoyed any increases at all in average inflationadjusted
take home pay. For workers with a college education, this recent slow real wage
growth is a relatively new experience because these workers had seen their real pay rising
steadily between 1980 and 2000; but for most other workers, the recent weak wage
growth actually continues a longer run trend, in which, with the exception of the late
1990s, average hourly wages have failed to grow.
At the same time as wages were stagnating, though, rich Americans were clearly
getting richer. In 2006, the share of corporate profits in national income was higher than
at any time since 1947. And the inequality was not only reflected in the behavior of
profits. The share of wage income reported in the very top one percent of US tax returns
in 2005 was almost double that recorded in 1980.

One way of vividly illustrating the concern about the fate of the typical worker is
to contrast the growth in output per worker against real average hourly earnings over the
past quarter century. One might have expected that the two series would track each other.
1Yet, they tell strikingly different stories. Labor productivity growth has been robust and
output per hour has risen by over 50 logarithmic points or 70 percent.2 By contrast,
average real hourly wages have been virtually flat: measured in 1982 dollars, they grew
just 4.4 percent-- averaging $7.88 in 1981 and $8.23 in 2006

So why are US workers doing so poorly?

The views of Stephen Roach, chief economist at Morgan Stanley are typical:
“Globalization hasn’t exactly lived up to its win-win” billing. While the developing
world has benefited from the first win, in the rich countries the spoils of the second win
have gone mainly to the owners of capital.”…… “The global labor arbitrage has put
unrelenting pressure on employment and real wages in the high-cost developed world”

This decline in compensation as heretofore bypassed the Public Jobs sector. Probably in part because of strong unions, and also because of the lack of direct control from Wall Street. INHO, the attack on public employees did get under way during the Clinton administration, and escalated rapidly during the Bush years.

Terri
09-19-2010, 06:35 PM
All opinions though I did fix one part :). You don't talk about what state you are from so we have no base to see if you might have a grievance! What numbers do you base your private sector claim on? I believe we have several engineers who frequent PP so can add credibility or $^$##^&* to your claim.

I for example know that teachers in SD receive considerably less in the rural areas, but are still paid quite well compared to those in the community. They also turn out a superior product!





I sense a little parental pride but that don't stand up well when negotiating a contract with a group of those who do not share your son's passion :confused:.



Again an opinion backed with no substance ;-).

Marvin,

Is not this whole post about opinions? The posted public incomes are the only facts, but is it too much or too little is an opinion. When you say people are over paid that is your opinion, which you have a right to have, but it does not make it a fact. How do you compare different types of jobs or similar jobs located in different states? Different jobs require different skills and training. There is more a demand for some skills and less for others. Each state has a different cost of living. Some states cost more to live in and some state cost less. The great think about this country is we have the choice to make career choices and live in any state we choice. It is a balancing act. A give and take. To make money involves a lot of factors.
I do have a lot of pride for my son. I consider him a public employee because he works for the city as a pool manager, he is not a teacher, yet. The bargain I was referring to in my post goes to our city. Yes, it was only an opinion. It was my opinion. I also have a right to an opinion. The fact is my son makes under $14 an hour with no benefits and a staff of 40. Do you think he is making too much money? If you do not have kids, you may say yes. If you have kids and my son taught your kid to swim 25 yards in two weeks or saved your kid from drowning you might think he should get a raise. Either way it is still just an opinion.
We live in California. I base my information about an husband's level of pay off of information we have received from state reports. The reports explained why they were phasing in raises over several years. The plain was to bring the Engineers income in line with other public agencies, cities and counties in the state. With state budget problems the cost adjustments were stopped, classifications changed, and several days off per month. The department of transportation is a specially funded agency, not part of the general fund. I think you should be able to fact check this information. To compare his income to the private sector came from information obtained from our daughter's friend who is a civil engineer working for a private company in our state. He had looked up my husband's salary, which is public information, and he couldn't believe how close their salaries where to each other. Then they had to discuss the benefits and again he told us my husband was being under paid and his benefits were not what he had expected. Yes this part is hear say from a guy who works in the private sector. Sorry his income and benefits package is not subject to public viewing. As for as a grievance on classification changes, this case is before the courts. Will the lawyers make out like bandits, yes. Will the state have to back pay? Only the judge knows.
Our oldest daughter is in her third year of law school. In several years I will have a lawyer and a teacher as children. I think the third wants to be a nurse. Just my parental opinion, but I hope nurses get paid too much too? In all seriousness, when I choose to stay home with my kids I never thought about them making a lot of money. I'm a college graduate, who choose to be a stay at home mom instead of having a career. My husband use to tell me I was under paid, just his opinion. I'm no longer called a soccer mom, instead I'm the mom who runs the dog to daily activities- hunt test training. My dog does all the work and I just stand at the line trying to look like I'm part of the team. My main job is to keep her line manners in check. Again, my husband things I do not take enough credit for our success. Do not ask the dog because she would tell you I could go sit in the truck and she would get the job done and she would not be leaving that duck on the rack for the club to use later.
Another thread asked why are you not training the dogs? We are home because she has a hot spot and I haven't figured out how to keep it clean out in the field or how to fit her into the crate with the Elizabethan collar on.
Marvin, do not take my post too serious, besides I think you named my dog. She is my real pride and joy, do not worry the kids already know. My husband shares my feelings about the dog, but the kids are still in the dark on that point.
Terri

Marvin S
09-20-2010, 05:22 PM
I'd like to hear of others experiences within the public realm!! Facts & numbers please ;-).

I just post this for your benefit, Terri. this is what most have been able to do!


Marvin,

Is not this whole post about opinions? The posted public incomes are the only facts, but is it too much or too little is an opinion. When you say people are over paid that is your opinion, which you have a right to have, but it does not make it a fact. How do you compare different types of jobs or similar jobs located in different states? Different jobs require different skills and training. There is more a demand for some skills and less for others. Each state has a different cost of living. Some states cost more to live in and some state cost less. The great think about this country is we have the choice to make career choices and live in any state we choice. It is a balancing act. A give and take. To make money involves a lot of factors.
I do have a lot of pride for my son. I consider him a public employee because he works for the city as a pool manager, he is not a teacher, yet. The bargain I was referring to in my post goes to our city. Yes, it was only an opinion. It was my opinion. I also have a right to an opinion. The fact is my son makes under $14 an hour with no benefits and a staff of 40. Do you think he is making too much money? If you do not have kids, you may say yes. If you have kids and my son taught your kid to swim 25 yards in two weeks or saved your kid from drowning you might think he should get a raise. Either way it is still just an opinion.
We live in California. I base my information about an husband's level of pay off of information we have received from state reports. The reports explained why they were phasing in raises over several years. The plain was to bring the Engineers income in line with other public agencies, cities and counties in the state. With state budget problems the cost adjustments were stopped, classifications changed, and several days off per month. The department of transportation is a specially funded agency, not part of the general fund. I think you should be able to fact check this information. To compare his income to the private sector came from information obtained from our daughter's friend who is a civil engineer working for a private company in our state. He had looked up my husband's salary, which is public information, and he couldn't believe how close their salaries where to each other. Then they had to discuss the benefits and again he told us my husband was being under paid and his benefits were not what he had expected. Yes this part is hear say from a guy who works in the private sector. Sorry his income and benefits package is not subject to public viewing. As for as a grievance on classification changes, this case is before the courts. Will the lawyers make out like bandits, yes. Will the state have to back pay? Only the judge knows.
Our oldest daughter is in her third year of law school. In several years I will have a lawyer and a teacher as children. I think the third wants to be a nurse. Just my parental opinion, but I hope nurses get paid too much too? In all seriousness, when I choose to stay home with my kids I never thought about them making a lot of money. I'm a college graduate, who choose to be a stay at home mom instead of having a career. My husband use to tell me I was under paid, just his opinion. I'm no longer called a soccer mom, instead I'm the mom who runs the dog to daily activities- hunt test training. My dog does all the work and I just stand at the line trying to look like I'm part of the team. My main job is to keep her line manners in check. Again, my husband things I do not take enough credit for our success. Do not ask the dog because she would tell you I could go sit in the truck and she would get the job done and she would not be leaving that duck on the rack for the club to use later.
Another thread asked why are you not training the dogs? We are home because she has a hot spot and I haven't figured out how to keep it clean out in the field or how to fit her into the crate with the Elizabethan collar on.
Marvin, do not take my post too serious, besides I think you named my dog. She is my real pride and joy, do not worry the kids already know. My husband shares my feelings about the dog, but the kids are still in the dark on that point.
Terri

FYI, I do not take your post too serious except too many have your entitlement mentality. I'm here, I have a degree, now pay me! or I could add an early refrain from one of the lefty's on this forum, I went to the best schools, why isn't that recognized? It's a cruel & competitive world, the cream needs to be allowed to rise to the top. One of the really neat things in the past is that government employment was very frustrating for those with talent, hence they left & created something in the Real world.


3 of my 4 sons are independent business people - they deal on a constant basis with those from government whose only thought is to thwart productivity as they do not recognize it! While being in the professions you claim for your family may all be honorable occupations, they are part of a group that is homogenous, hence they will never achieve their full capability because the system does not allow that. Those who may have been able to contribute to a better society that stuck around for security are getting it, but at what price? When my sons were young I told them, you do what you want to do in life, if you are good enough at it you will have all you need. Those who enter professions just for the money are condemned to a miserable life!!!!!!!!!!!

When groups demand constant improvements in their working conditions with little to show in the way of increased output, they become expendable. All we have to do is look at the American factory worker who listened to the union boss & is now unemployed. Public employees are on that road & some bright person will figure out how to replace them with their fat contracts & fringe benefit packages :o.

Terri
09-21-2010, 01:46 PM
Marvin,

I do not know how I have an entitlement attitude. I'm pretty sure I told you my son wants to be a teacher because it is a passion. I think you poo pooed that idea. He does worry a bit about not making enough money to live on, which is only natural for most men. He could go into other fields, but he wants to do what he likes. Isn't nursing also a passion field? If you don't care to help people in need you will not last long. There is not enough money in the world you could pay me to do that job. As for as lawyers, it can be a passion. I think we have lawyers on this form that can speak of their passion for the rule of law and seeing justice carried out. The truth is we will always need nurses, teachers, and lawyers. I do not see any where that my kids are looking for a free hand out. I know we are not getting any free hand out to pay for their education. Yes, my husband works for the state, but he also has a small business, which is in the Engineering field. He makes more money per hour doing his business than he does at the state job. He took the state job and continues at it for several reasons. Raising three kids and putting them through college without government help cost a lot of money. Working so your wife can save at home with the kids, cost a man a lot of extra hard work. He enjoys staying up to date and being part of new developments that only a bigger organization can afford to offer. Designing and completing a parking lot is fun the first time, but some people need more of a challenge day after day.

Maybe I should start a new thread.

Do you think you make too much money at your present job? Is your benefit package over the top? Do you pay too little in state and/or federal taxes? What facts do you use that make you have that opinion?

I have only meet one person who thought her husband made too much money. I know a lot of people would rather keep their employer health care package than have the president's health care package. I have meet people that think we all should be paying more taxes, but not one of those people were willing to write a check to the IRS to help cover the taxes for cheap entitlement minded people like me who thing my family pays too much in taxes.

What my family has they worked for and I think that is something to be proud of. It sounds socialist to say no matter how hard you work to get an education you should make no more money than the person who did not graduate from high school because he was too busy smoking weed on the corner. Nothing wrong with making money. It should not be a dirty word. Not working hard should be the dirty word. There are a lot more lazy people than the ones who work for a government agency. Let us not forget that police, fire fighters, and the people in the military all are government employees.

I'm no liberal, Mr Marvin.

Now you have a nice day,

Terri

dnf777
09-21-2010, 02:19 PM
All we have to do is look at the American factory worker who listened to the union boss & is now unemployed. .

How dare they not work for a sac of rice and 50 cents per day like their Asian replacement is willing to do!

The world is flat. Wake up!

Marvin S
09-22-2010, 08:33 AM
Marvin,

I do not know how I have an entitlement attitude.

Terri

4 posts about your personal situation says more than any of your denials :eek:.


How dare they not work for a sac of rice and 50 cents per day like their Asian replacement is willing to do!

The world is flat. Wake up!

I would have thought someone with your vast knowledge, a critic of NAFTA, could provide something a little more eloquent than the old rice burner analogy :rolleyes:.

dnf777
09-22-2010, 08:47 AM
I would have thought someone with your vast knowledge, a critic of NAFTA, could provide something a little more eloquent than the old rice burner analogy :rolleyes:.

Such countries often don't publicize labor statistics, so I'm left to rice-burner alnalogies. Our workers, union or not, if they expect to earn a decent wage to support a household, cannot compete with people who gladly accept what we would refuse.

Buzz
09-22-2010, 09:02 AM
I for example know that teachers in SD receive considerably less in the rural areas, but are still paid quite well compared to those in the community. They also turn out a superior product!




State Rankings

Average Teacher Salary Rank: 50th
Starting Teacher Salary Rank: 47th
Salary raise last year: 2.0%
Salary raise over 10 years: 31.7%

Starting Salary: $26,111
Average Salary: $34,709

I can't find average salary for the state, only median income. It's interesting that back in the early 1990's I knew some public school teachers in the Cincinnati area. I'd thought about teaching, and there was a serious shortage of teachers qualified to teach math & science in the state. I was working as an engineer making around $55k at the time as an engineer. When I looked into it, the starting salary was $25k with the average being around $45k after around 20 years of experience. I told them that they weren't serious about getting qualified math and science teachers with that kind of pay scale. They were insulted, telling me that they want people who are interested in teaching kids, not making money. I imagine that the salaries were cast in stone by a union contract.

Here is some data on math and reading scores by state. I'll let you all sort it out for yourselves.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0260.pdf

My daughter Liz recently had an assessment for reading level. She just started 6th grade and she has a reading level of 12.3, which means she has the reading proficiency of a 12th grader in the 3rd month of school. Her best friend tested at a 12.6. If I had to put the credit with anyone, I would put it with Liz's mom, not the school system.

ducknwork
09-22-2010, 11:25 AM
Such countries often don't publicize labor statistics, so I'm left to rice-burner alnalogies. Our workers, union or not, if they expect to earn a decent wage to support a household, cannot compete with people who gladly accept what we would refuse.

You can support a household for a hell of a lot less than unions demand. I know what I make and I support a stay at home wife and three kids. I know what a friend in PA makes as a union carpenter and what he says a lot of the other union workers he works with gets paid. Let's just say he's got it waaaaay better than I do. However, it is not necessary to make that much money to support a family. Don't get me wrong, they have it really good with their benefits and all, but if the union would get their head out of their butt (maybe you can help)(calm down, not a knock on your profession) maybe they would realize that if people made 10% less, they could employ 10% more people, have less delays on job completions, make more money on union dues, perhaps help improve their image, etc...

Terri
09-22-2010, 03:06 PM
Marvin,

I'm glad you did not bring any of your personal life into your post. Isn't it funny that you counted my post, go back and read your own post. I'm pretty sure you did talk about your family along with others on this post who have brought their family and life experiences to this thread. I can talk about my family experience because that is what I know. Everyone has had different experiences in life and that is what they bring to this thread. You do not know me, but you are the one who claimed I didn't give enough facts only opinions. You think I have an entitlement attitude from my post, your opinion. Where are the facts to support that claim? After reading your post I found you to be a socialist. This is based on your post that just because a person has an education he should not make any more money than some one without an education. That sounds like a socialist to me, just my opinion. Lets pay everyone the same, do what you love, and we will all live as one. No thank you. I want people to be paid for their hard work, people can do what they love, but they better be able to pay their own way. I do not live in LA, LA Land. My husband works for the state, but he also has his own business, we do not have all our eggs in one basket. He will find a way to make it work because he is willing to work and I have been willing to save for the future. No government hands outs coming our way.

For the RTF form:
I have no problem with the private sector, but I also see a need for government jobs as well. Does that mean that I want a big government that controls everything? No, All I'm saying is that not all the economic problems we face are caused by the amount of money we pay government employees. What about the private sector who gets government contracts and over charges for the work they do? I hate to think how many times I have read about the government being charged $16 for one nail, bailing out private sector companies, $800,000 plus for a new execution room for the state of California (When was the last time we executed anyone in this state?), the blame can be shared by many. We give too much money to foreign aid and in country aid. Abuse and waste of government money happens all the time. There is blame to be shared by many.
How many people in the private sector do work for the government for free or give the government a discount on the services they provide? I'm sure some do, but most do not. The private sector is a for profit group. How many business owners start a business to loss money? How many people take jobs to not make money? If you did not really care about working for money you would not be called an employee, but a volunteer. I do not know anyone who applies for a job in the private sector and says I was offered several jobs with several different companies all in the same field, same amount of duties, equal driving distance from my house, and I choose the one that offered me the lowest salary, lowest benefit package, and when I retire I agreed to forfeit the gold watch. A business owner many hire this person, thinking I made out like a bandit on this deal. How long do you think it would take a wise owner to realize, he made a mistake? A person too stupid to look out for himself is not the person I want watching my back (building my business), again just my opinion.

Terri

road kill
09-22-2010, 03:11 PM
Such countries often don't publicize labor statistics, so I'm left to rice-burner alnalogies. Our workers, union or not, if they expect to earn a decent wage to support a household, cannot compete with people who gladly accept what we would refuse.
That is 100% incorrect.
We just refuse to do what needs to be done.




RK

Marvin S
09-22-2010, 05:42 PM
I'd thought about teaching, and there was a serious shortage of teachers qualified to teach math & science in the state. I was working as an engineer making around $55k at the time as an engineer. When I looked into it, the starting salary was $25k with the average being around $45k after around 20 years of experience. I told them that they weren't serious about getting qualified math and science teachers with that kind of pay scale. They were insulted, telling me that they want people who are interested in teaching kids, not making money. I imagine that the salaries were cast in stone by a union contract.

Here is some data on math and reading scores by state. I'll let you all sort it out for yourselves.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0260.pdf

My daughter Liz recently had an assessment for reading level. She just started 6th grade and she has a reading level of 12.3, which means she has the reading proficiency of a 12th grader in the 3rd month of school. Her best friend tested at a 12.6. If I had to put the credit with anyone, I would put it with Liz's mom, not the school system.

The NEA is adamant about not wanting to partition talent :( so math & science though they sit on the right side of the Bell Curve are lumped right in their with History & other subjects from the middle of the curve. The education system will gladly take credit for your daughter's achievements though in most cases it is no longer their credit. I along with my friends were fortunate enough when young to have some very good country school teachers. They took the best from the local schools who normally went to normal school for 12 weeks & they taught us when they were fresh out of high school. They then picked up an additional 18 weeks, 6 weeks at a time over the next 5 years. They were then a fully accredited elementary school teacher & most that I knew were quite good.

The last time I saw rankings, SD was in the top 5 in the nation, so it shows money is'nt the full answer.

I'd like to see more charter schools so kids would have a choice & a decent start in life.

Marvin S
09-22-2010, 05:52 PM
Such countries often don't publicize labor statistics, so I'm left to rice-burner alnalogies. Our workers, union or not, if they expect to earn a decent wage to support a household, cannot compete with people who gladly accept what we would refuse.

Man Up & think for yourself :confused:!!!!!!!! For a guy who wants to act like the forum BS artist you showing yourself as a little shallow. I guess that's why they call you little Yardley ;-). There are lots of things I would have liked to have done in life, but when what you do is easily copied you need to get on to something with a higher price of entry. Those who chose to continue on the easy path did so at their own risk except that the enablers have allowed them to sit around & commiserate rather than doing something useful. Maybe we need another CCC to teach people useful skills?

caryalsobrook
09-22-2010, 06:24 PM
How dare they not work for a sac of rice and 50 cents per day like their Asian replacement is willing to do!

The world is flat. Wake up!

look up the LAW of comparative advantage. You might learn something about free trade and the fact that both sides benefit from trade no matter what the level of salaries of each country only that product which that country has a comparable advantage relative to the othere products it produces. Wikipedia has a good description if you choose to look it up. Higher general wages in one country as to another country does not have any affect on what country has a comparable advantage. Free trade between the countries raises the overall standard of living of both of them. Thankfully all presidents both democrat and republican have understood this LAW. oNLY UNIONS AND OTHER PROTECTIONISTS eithere don't understand it or don't care about the standard of living of society as a whole but only care about protecting those who produce those goods and services who can't compete and as a result do not have a comparable advantege.

depittydawg
09-22-2010, 10:54 PM
You can support a household for a hell of a lot less than unions demand. I know what I make and I support a stay at home wife and three kids. I know what a friend in PA makes as a union carpenter and what he says a lot of the other union workers he works with gets paid. Let's just say he's got it waaaaay better than I do. However, it is not necessary to make that much money to support a family. Don't get me wrong, they have it really good with their benefits and all, but if the union would get their head out of their butt (maybe you can help)(calm down, not a knock on your profession) maybe they would realize that if people made 10% less, they could employ 10% more people, have less delays on job completions, make more money on union dues, perhaps help improve their image, etc...

I'll take that 10% pay reduction and raise you another 40%. Now, if CEO's take a 50% pay reduction, they will still be making 250 X what they pay their workers. And the workers can all have a raise, free healthcare, and a pension. And the CEO still has enough for several mansions, a nice Yacht, and his membership at the Best Golf Clubs in the country.

DL
09-24-2010, 08:51 PM
What would happen if the state prisons paid prison guards minimum wage? Would anybody work in a prison for minimum wage? The wage has to attract workers. Personally I think that being a high school teacher would be very unpleasant. I think being an engineer would be relatively stress free. If someone truely gets paid solely on what they know and not for putting up with manure, that is the best deal going.