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paul young
09-23-2010, 05:29 AM
i have become increasingly uncomfortable with how veterans are being treated by some on this forum.

these people have made sacrifices that are, in many cases, far beyond anything most of us can imagine. we all owe them a great debt, yet some would belittle their service and/or question their patriotism.

this has to stop. people, think before you hit "submit", PLEASE!-Paul

P.S.-stumpholehunter, check your pm's.

dnf777
09-23-2010, 06:10 AM
I'll second that wholeheartedly.
Even if someone mentions "I was there", that does NOT open the game for attacks or smears, as some have taken license.

Thank you to all the veterans, active duty, and reservists on POTUS for your sacrafice, months or years away from family and dogs, and all you do.

Hew
09-23-2010, 06:31 AM
For starters, I know I have never belittled anyone's service so I'm not responding in defense of any previous comments I've made. That said....

It is entirely possible to respect someone's military service while at the same time commenting unfavorably on that same person's opinions about, well, anything. I read something recently that I thought was pretty profound....that every veteran once signed their name to a blank check made payable to the United States for "up to and including my life." What sane or rational person wouldn't respect that? But that service doesn't grant them a lifetime free pass against saying or doing stupid things, and it sure doesn't grant them immunity from others commenting on those stupid things. I can respect the fact that Charles Manson once signed on the dotted line while at the same time think he's murdering lunatic.

I haven't been keeping up with every thread/post, so I really don't know what prompted the original post, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone here degrade another's service/sacrifice.

subroc
09-23-2010, 06:50 AM
For starters, I know I have never belittled anyone's service so I'm not responding in defense of any previous comments I've made. That said....

It is entirely possible to respect someone's military service while at the same time commenting unfavorably on that same person's opinions about, well, anything. I read something recently that I thought was pretty profound....that every veteran once signed their name to a blank check made payable to the United States for "up to and including my life." What sane or rational person wouldn't respect that? But that service doesn't grant them a lifetime free pass against saying or doing stupid things, and it sure doesn't grant them immunity from others commenting on those stupid things. I can respect the fact that Charles Manson once signed on the dotted line while at the same time think he's murdering lunatic.

I haven't been keeping up with every thread/post, so I really don't know what prompted the original post, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone here degrade another's service/sacrifice.

I agree. service does not give carte blanche to stupid statments. service does not give moral authority above others.

Clay Rogers
09-23-2010, 07:04 AM
I think the original post was meant to cover personal attacks, maybe like what RP said in the powell thread. I agree that service to this country doesn't give us free reign(it should, but it doesn't) to say and do as we please. I thank Paul for caring enough to say it though.

What Roger said didn't even bother me, as a matter of fact, I expected nothing less from him. He, like myself, believes what he believes(even if it's wrong) with all his heart, and if he can't debate without resorting to remarks like that then I am ok with that.


I had a woman at work last night call me an "elitist" because I served in the military. She said "You think you are better than the rest of us because you served in the military, don't you. You think you deserve special treatment." I thought about that the rest of the night and I came to this conclusion, she is right.:cool:

Just kidding.

ducknwork
09-23-2010, 07:05 AM
i have become increasingly uncomfortable with how people in general are being treated by some on this forum.

this has to stop. people, think before you hit "submit", PLEASE!-Paul

P.S.-stumpholehunter, check your pm's.

Why single out veterans? Everyone deserves to be spoken to and about respectfully, regardless of whether or not they served in the military.

road kill
09-23-2010, 08:10 AM
i have become increasingly uncomfortable with how veterans are being treated by some on this forum.

these people have made sacrifices that are, in many cases, far beyond anything most of us can imagine. we all owe them a great debt, yet some would belittle their service and/or question their patriotism.

this has to stop. people, think before you hit "submit", PLEASE!-Paul

P.S.-stumpholehunter, check your pm's.


Paul,
I appreciate your post as I have stood up for Veterans here on both sides of the political spectrum.
Both Roger Perry & stumpholehunter.

The issue is not really just Veterans.
The handful of people that are disrespectful to Vets are equally disrespectful to just about everyone at just about every chance.

I'll never forget what I saw, ever......and I will never forget the reaction when certain people (we will just call them "hippies"/progressives) found out where I had been.
Raised eyebrows and comments like "OOooohhhhh!!"
You see the media had painted a picture of us that was somewhat different than the reality.
Almost as if we were evil baby killers.
I would offer in my case I killed no one, but I was credited with the saving of a few.
But the comments hurt.

You never know what someone faced in the military.
Everyone faced something.

My favorite quote on our war is "All gave some, some gave all!"

That "ALL" can be different for each guy.


Your sentiments are appreciated, Paul.

Welcome Home stumpholehunter!!
Thank you!


RK

Clay Rogers
09-23-2010, 08:13 AM
Why single out veterans? Everyone deserves to be spoken to and about respectfully, regardless of whether or not they served in the military.

Very well said.

ducknwork
09-23-2010, 08:28 AM
Very well said.

Thank you...

That being said, I don't want it to appear that I meant to downplay veterans and current members of our military. I truly appreciate what all of you have done for all of us.

YardleyLabs
09-23-2010, 10:56 AM
Why single out veterans? Everyone deserves to be spoken to and about respectfully, regardless of whether or not they served in the military.Absolutely.

I respect acts of service and self sacrifice, even when I do not necessarily agree with the cause. I support our troops because we owe that support for those who sacrifice at the behest of their nation. However, I may still believe that the leaders who demanded that sacrifice are idiots and that the cause is not just.

Our country is defined by the beliefs and cultures of our citizens. No group owns the right to define what is or is not American. It is a moving target and has been since the nation was first formed by radicals who rejected the standing order and sought to change our nation to make it better. Our flag flies above all of us and our Constitution provides a flexible framework for working through our differences in peace.

Those who attack the patriotism of others and those who declare a person a hater of America because of their beliefs are themselves violating the spirit that has made is strong. Ad hominem attacks are generally used by those who are unable to put together arguments with substance. While the character of a person may reflect on their motives and on their honesty, it does not necessarily have anything to do with the validity of their positions.

Franco
09-23-2010, 11:10 AM
Ad hominem attacks are generally used by those who are unable to put together arguments with substance. While the character of a person may reflect on their motives and on their honesty, it does not necessarily have anything to do with the validity of their positions.



Though I consider myself Right-Of-Center and an Independent, there is a lot of name calling and internet bullying by the right here on POTUS. And yes, I agree it is because many of them can not articulate thier counter points so they resort to name calling and inuendos.

This is one opinion I agree with Paul about. A well respected General makes a slip of the tongue and gets chastised for it. Like the folks on the Right have never done likewise.

david gibson
09-23-2010, 11:13 AM
i'll go on record as accepting all the blame for starting a thread on a very touchy subject, and being the mean internet bully who pushed everyone around afterwards. but it must also be said as Pete did that i in no way disparaged any veteran in a manner with respect to their service. as pete said, he is now in the political forum. i disparaged a man making a political statement about an illegal activity and his attempts to backpedal and cover it up, like a bad politician. some took offense to that, but again, and i am sorry, but i never said a word about his military service.

so i misspelled his name in an offensive manner. i apologize for that too. either i am the only person who has ever used a play on words for a political adversary , or he is the only person for which that is strictly forbidden, i am still not quite clear on that. whichever it is, i am clearly wrong.

road kill
09-23-2010, 11:15 AM
Though I consider myself Right-Of-Center and an Independent, there is a lot of name calling and internet bullying by the right here on POTUS. And yes, I agree it is because many of them can not articulate thier counter points so they resort to name calling and inuendos.

This is one opinion I agree with Paul about. A well respected General makes a slip of the tongue and gets chastised for it. Like the folks on the Right have never done likewise.

I may be wrong, but this thread was also in reference to some pretty personal stuff posted about and towards a veteran posting here on the board.

RK

Franco
09-23-2010, 11:18 AM
I missed that as I only glimpsed at that thread as I consider the entire premise of that thread to be dumb.

Who here has never made a slip of the tongue or faux pas?

Ken Bora
09-23-2010, 11:31 AM
so i misspelled his name in an offensive manner. i apologize for that too. either i am the only person who has ever used a play on words for a political adversary , or he is the only person for which that is strictly forbidden, i am still not quite clear on that. whichever it is, i am clearly wrong.

No you are not the only one David,
Problem is, is doing it, and then denying it and using the key next to the other key defense.
It would seem, at a glance, what you did and what the General did are exactly the same.
If, when typing, your not ready to stand on a box and yell “I said that, it was ME!”
Then just hit delete and move on, don’t blame your typing skill. That’s all.






.

ducknwork
09-23-2010, 11:42 AM
No you are not the only one David,
Problem is, is doing it, and then denying it and using the key next to the other key defense.
It would seem, at a glance, what you did and what the General did are exactly the same.
If, when typing, your not ready to stand on a box and yell “I said that, it was ME!”
Then just hit delete and move on, don’t blame your typing skill. That’s all.







.
If you re read the posts he made, he claimed he did it on purpose to prove a point.

david gibson
09-23-2010, 11:46 AM
No you are not the only one David,
Problem is, is doing it, and then denying it and using the key next to the other key defense.
It would seem, at a glance, what you did and what the General did are exactly the same.
If, when typing, your not ready to stand on a box and yell “I said that, it was ME!”
Then just hit delete and move on, don’t blame your typing skill. That’s all.

.


ken. that was a joke. do you really think i was using that as an excuse? it was in parody of "oops, i simply mistyped" just like Powel when he said "oops, i simply misspoke". all was supposed to be forgiven for him, why not me? irony, sarcasm, parody, a little bit of each - the parallel is lost on you in that? apparently it was lost on a few others, even after i explained it. oh never mind. no wonder things get out of hand in here.


now the "tardley" thing was just that, i literally typed it wrong, liked it, and stuck with it. ;-)

Ken Bora
09-23-2010, 11:53 AM
If you re read the posts he made, he claimed he did it on purpose to prove a point.

So he was for it before he was against it?
John Kerry posts on RTF?:cool::cool::cool:


.

ducknwork
09-23-2010, 11:56 AM
So he was for it before he was against it?
John Kerry posts on RTF?:cool::cool::cool:


.

And poses as a right wing "extremist"! Now THAT took some real brains to figure out, Ken! :p

Ken Bora
09-23-2010, 11:59 AM
And poses as a right wing "extremist"! Now THAT took some real brains to figure out, Ken! :p

it was the hair that tipped me off ;-)

Uncle Bill
09-23-2010, 12:12 PM
i have become increasingly uncomfortable with how veterans are being treated by some on this forum.



Is this a reference to veterans in general? Like the US military? Or is this referring to 'selected' vets like the late John Murtha, or the ever present John Kerry?

Like HEW and others, It's my opinion also that once a "veteran" assumes political staus, their military record is no longer a shield they can hide behind if they are being challenged or denigrated. In most cases, their military record is not in question...it's their political record.

Furthermore, having been in the military, I can tell you there are plenty 'leaders' I served under that I wouldn't take a dimes worth of their advice, especially if it's political. Several of them fell into the category of the first Sgt that said to a GI getting discharged, "I suppose you'll look me up when I'm gone and Pi$$ on my grave." The soldier said he would not, but the Sgt wanted to know why? The soldier said "I made a promise to myself that when I get out of the service, I will never stand in line again."

UB

Clay Rogers
09-23-2010, 01:38 PM
Is this a reference to veterans in general? Like the US military? Or is this referring to 'selected' vets like the late John Murtha, or the ever present John Kerry?

Like HEW and others, It's my opinion also that once a "veteran" assumes political staus, their military record is no longer a shield they can hide behind if they are being challenged or denigrated. In most cases, their military record is not in question...it's their political record.

Furthermore, having been in the military, I can tell you there are plenty 'leaders' I served under that I wouldn't take a dimes worth of their advice, especially if it's political. Several of them fell into the category of the first Sgt that said to a GI getting discharged, "I suppose you'll look me up when I'm gone and Pi$$ on my grave." The soldier said he would not, but the Sgt wanted to know why? The soldier said "I made a promise to myself that when I get out of the service, I will never stand in line again."

UB



That's funny. I made two promises to myself when I got out. One, I would never use the bathroom outside again, except to urinate. Been steady on that one. Two, I would never stand outside in the rain again. Broke that one a time or two, duck hunting and such.

M&K's Retrievers
09-23-2010, 02:20 PM
That's funny. I made two promises to myself when I got out. One, I would never use the bathroom outside again, except to urinate. Been steady on that one. Two, I would never stand outside in the rain again. Broke that one a time or two, duck hunting and such.

I'm still pretty firm on that standing in line thing which means I don't go to movies much and at restaurants it's OK provided they have a bar,:-P

dnf777
09-23-2010, 02:23 PM
That's funny. I made two promises to myself when I got out. One, I would never use the bathroom outside again, except to urinate. Been steady on that one. Two, I would never stand outside in the rain again. Broke that one a time or two, duck hunting and such.

You don't stencil you name on your truck's windshield, do you?

david gibson
09-23-2010, 06:10 PM
You don't stencil you name on your truck's windshield, do you?

can i ask what you mean by that question?

road kill
09-23-2010, 06:11 PM
can i ask what you mean by that question?

He doesn't really know, it's just something he heard the big kids talking about at recess.:D




RK

david gibson
09-23-2010, 06:28 PM
He doesn't really know, it's just something he heard the big kids talking about at recess.:D

RK

i really dont get it. come on little tardley - explain - you said:

"You don't stencil you name on your truck's windshield, do you?"

i'll ignore the typo, but what are you asking? who stencils their name on their windshield???

latinos commonly stencil their names on their rear window in old english...so what, its a cultural thing.......hmmmm....dude, where are (or were) you going with this?

david gibson
09-23-2010, 06:42 PM
That's funny. I made two promises to myself when I got out. One, I would never use the bathroom outside again, except to urinate. Been steady on that one. Two, I would never stand outside in the rain again. Broke that one a time or two, duck hunting and such.

regardless of our differences/etc, i hear ya. i hate pooping on the ground. totally. but i have to do it all the time because i love the backcountry and thats part of the price.

no where near the same when you have to do it as you did. despite our differences please know where my heart lies. i have a nephew that was an MP kicking down doors in Falluja (sp?) he saw it all, did it all, and now enjoys catching some bass a few times week as a natural eraser.....but as i am sure you know it never really works.....................

dnf777
09-23-2010, 07:12 PM
i really dont get it. come on little tardley - explain - you said:

"You don't stencil you name on your truck's windshield, do you?"

i'll ignore the typo, but what are you asking? who stencils their name on their windshield???

latinos commonly stencil their names on their rear window in old english...so what, its a cultural thing.......hmmmm....dude, where are (or were) you going with this?


Its a joke. There's a common sheet of "you've been in the army too long if..."
One of the items is "you stencil your name on the windshield"
Most Humvees have the officer and driver's name stenciled on the window.

Other hints you may have been in the army too long:


• you think "camouflage" is a primary colour.
• you tell your kids you’ll pick them up at "sixteen-forty hours" instead of "twenty to five".
• carrying your rifle, which used to be "cool", is now a pain in the butt.
• the first thing you notice about a civilian is hair length.
• you hesitate to fire your rifle...because then you’d have to clean it.
• you iron creases in your T-shirts.
• your hairstyle would not look out of place on "Happy Days."
• you hate camping...because it reminds you of your day job.
• you look at a persons collar or sleeve before you look at their face.
• you divide people into two groups: "us" and "civilians".
• when you relax, you unconsciously adopt the position of "stand at ease."
• you can't enjoy watching war movies because you spend too much time nitpicking the errors.
• you want to buy stuff "for the field" because it’s olive green, no matter how useless ("Hey, look! A camouflage melon baller!").
• your entire civilian wardrobe consists of blue jeans, a pair of non-descript polyester dress pants, and an infinite number of T-shirts with military badges or slogans on them.
• you get irritated seeing civilians – especially long-haired ones – wearing things like combat pants or jackets with badges still on.
• you can say things like "butt party" or "action to the rear" with a straight face.
• when walking with others, you automatically fall into step.
• all matter is divided into two groups: "somethin' I can eat" and "somethin' I gotta clean."
• you can remember wearing work dress...and your subordinate hasn't even heard of garrison dress.
• you believe the four major food groups to be pizza, beer, cigarettes, and "other".
• your favourite cologne is "Eau de Deep Woods OFF."
• even in civilian clothes, you feel weird going outside without a hat.
• the sound of a car horn blaring makes you look for the nearest trench.
• the only way you can remember your girlfriend’s birthday is to think of it as her "civilian TOS date".
• your idea of a makeover is switching what parts of your face get dark green camouflage and what parts get olive.
• you find it almost impossible to carry on a conversation without resorting to acronyms or jargon.
• you buy extra pieces of uniform, just to hang in your locker for inspection.
• you beep your car horn twice before backing up.
• you put hospital corners on your bed...at home.
• you find out you have been "in" longer than some of your co-workers have been alive.
• you ever start saying things like, "Yeah? Well, back when I joined..."
• you run out of room on your CD ribbon for clasps, so you start using them as tie clips.
• you say you remember when "Centurion was a rank, not a tank"...and your subordinates don’t get it.

dnf777
09-23-2010, 07:14 PM
He doesn't really know, it's just something he heard the big kids talking about at recess.:D




RK

Read my reply to big Gibson, you might learn something, lil' gibby! :D

road kill
09-23-2010, 07:17 PM
Read my reply to big Gibson, you might learn something, lil' gibby! :D

Like I said, it's something you heard the big kids talking about!!:D


RK

david gibson
09-23-2010, 08:00 PM
whatever dnf - obviously no one else got it either.


great joke though! (not)

dnf777
09-23-2010, 08:06 PM
whatever dnf - obviously no one else got it either.


great joke though! (not)

Dave, I don't mean this in any type of mean spirit, but honestly, you wouldn't understand. Just like I wouldn't understand your geology jokes....

But just to show I'm a good sport:


You Might Be a Geologist If ...

You can pronounce the word "molybdenite" correctly on the first try.
You don't think of "cleavage" the same way everyone else does.
You have ever uttered the phrase "have you tried licking it" with no sexual connotations involved.
You have ever used the phrase "dropping acid" to refer to something other than drug use.
Your map for your next roadtrip is marked with the locations of a series of interesting road cuts.
You find yourself compelled to examine the gravel in other people's driveways.
You are willing to cross eight lanes of freeway traffic on foot to see if the outcrop on the other side of the highway is the same type of rock as the one on the side you're parked on.
You have ever intentionally taken a 15-passenger van (preferably containing more than 15 passengers) over "roads" that were intended only for cattle.
You consider a "recent event" to be anything that has happened in the last hundred thousand years or so.
You have ever had to respond "yes" to the question, "What have you got in here, rocks?"
You get upset when movies have glaring geological inaccuracies, and point them out to everyone else in the theatre (*cough*Dante's Peak and Volcano*cough*).

david gibson
09-23-2010, 10:01 PM
Dave, I don't mean this in any type of mean spirit, but honestly, you wouldn't understand. Just like I wouldn't understand your geology jokes....

But just to show I'm a good sport:


You Might Be a Geologist If ...

You can pronounce the word "molybdenite" correctly on the first try.
You don't think of "cleavage" the same way everyone else does.
You have ever uttered the phrase "have you tried licking it" with no sexual connotations involved.
You have ever used the phrase "dropping acid" to refer to something other than drug use.
Your map for your next roadtrip is marked with the locations of a series of interesting road cuts.
You find yourself compelled to examine the gravel in other people's driveways.
You are willing to cross eight lanes of freeway traffic on foot to see if the outcrop on the other side of the highway is the same type of rock as the one on the side you're parked on.
You have ever intentionally taken a 15-passenger van (preferably containing more than 15 passengers) over "roads" that were intended only for cattle.
You consider a "recent event" to be anything that has happened in the last hundred thousand years or so.
You have ever had to respond "yes" to the question, "What have you got in here, rocks?"
You get upset when movies have glaring geological inaccuracies, and point them out to everyone else in the theatre (*cough*Dante's Peak and Volcano*cough*).



ok, still dont get it. all the above is normal to me. its not my fault that i still think you are full of schist, but dont take that for granite.

sorry you had to work so hard to get your point across. :rolleyes:

Clay Rogers
09-23-2010, 11:12 PM
You don't stencil you name on your truck's windshield, do you?


I get it Dave. Guess your right, just had to be there. Never got my name on any windshield though. Always had to walk every where I went. Even airborne troops become "legs" once they hit the ground.;)

depittydawg
09-24-2010, 03:17 AM
Why single out veterans? Everyone deserves to be spoken to and about respectfully, regardless of whether or not they served in the military.

I'll second that.