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Eric Johnson
10-14-2010, 04:40 PM
In the case of

STATE OF FLORIDA, by and through
Bill McCollum, et al.;
Plaintiffs,

v.

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF
HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, et al.,
Defendants.

The preliminary order is in. (Case No.: 3:10-cv-91-RV/EMT)

>>The plaintiffs advance six causes of action in their amended complaint, and
they seek declaratory and injunctive relief with respect to each. They contend that
the Act violates the Constitution in the following ways: (1) the individual mandate
and concomitant penalty exceed Congress’s authority under the Commerce Clause
and violate the Ninth and Tenth Amendments (Count I); (2) the individual mandate
and penalty violate substantive due process under the Fifth Amendment (Count II);
(3) “alternatively,” if the penalty imposed for failing to comply with the individual
mandate is found to be a tax, it is an unconstitutional unapportioned capitation or
direct tax in violation of U.S. Const. art. I, § 9, cl. 4, and the Ninth and Tenth
Amendments (Count III); (4) the Act coerces and commandeers the states with
respect to Medicaid by altering and expanding the program in violation of Article I
and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments (Count IV); (5) it coerces and commandeers
with respect to the health benefit exchanges in violation of Article I and the Ninth
and Tenth Amendments (Count V); and (6) the employer mandate interferes with
the states’ sovereignty as large employers and in the performance of government
functions in violation of Article I and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments (Count VI).
See generally Amended Complaint (“Am. Compl.”)<<

According to Judge Vinson, there are reasonable grounds to proceed to trial on Counts One and Four. This is far from over but the most important count (Count One) has survived a motion for dismissal.

Eric

PS: The order is too large to upload and I can't give you the URL to the site where I got it because it's a subscription site.

depittydawg
10-14-2010, 07:51 PM
In the case of

STATE OF FLORIDA, by and through
Bill McCollum, et al.;
Plaintiffs,

v.

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF
HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, et al.,
Defendants.

The preliminary order is in. (Case No.: 3:10-cv-91-RV/EMT)

>>The plaintiffs advance six causes of action in their amended complaint, and
they seek declaratory and injunctive relief with respect to each. They contend that
the Act violates the Constitution in the following ways: (1) the individual mandate
and concomitant penalty exceed Congress’s authority under the Commerce Clause
and violate the Ninth and Tenth Amendments (Count I); (2) the individual mandate
and penalty violate substantive due process under the Fifth Amendment (Count II);
(3) “alternatively,” if the penalty imposed for failing to comply with the individual
mandate is found to be a tax, it is an unconstitutional unapportioned capitation or
direct tax in violation of U.S. Const. art. I, § 9, cl. 4, and the Ninth and Tenth
Amendments (Count III); (4) the Act coerces and commandeers the states with
respect to Medicaid by altering and expanding the program in violation of Article I
and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments (Count IV); (5) it coerces and commandeers
with respect to the health benefit exchanges in violation of Article I and the Ninth
and Tenth Amendments (Count V); and (6) the employer mandate interferes with
the states’ sovereignty as large employers and in the performance of government
functions in violation of Article I and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments (Count VI).
See generally Amended Complaint (“Am. Compl.”)<<

According to Judge Vinson, there are reasonable grounds to proceed to trial on Counts One and Four. This is far from over but the most important count (Count One) has survived a motion for dismissal.

Eric

PS: The order is too large to upload and I can't give you the URL to the site where I got it because it's a subscription site.

Just can't seem to get my mind around the conservatives mission to deprive people of healthcare. And lets not forget the fact that most of the uninsured in this country are children. Kind of weird. But then, considering what these people are all about, it isn't surprising.

road kill
10-14-2010, 07:58 PM
Just can't seem to get my mind around the conservatives mission to deprive people of healthcare. And lets not forget the fact that most of the uninsured in this country are children. Kind of weird. But then, considering what these people are all about, it isn't surprising.
Clever, total BULL SHAT....but clever!!

(BTW...the children card, is that page 5??)


RK

Raymond Little
10-14-2010, 10:13 PM
Just can't seem to get my mind around the conservatives mission to deprive people of healthcare. And lets not forget the fact that most of the uninsured in this country are children. Kind of weird. But then, considering what these people are all about, it isn't surprising.

Dickety, you know every uninsured child in America has insureancea bought and paid for by the people who WORK! Sell your Straw dog somewhere else.

M&K's Retrievers
10-14-2010, 11:25 PM
Clever, total BULL SHAT....but clever!!

(BTW...the children card, is that page 5??)


RK


Dickety, you know every uninsured child in America has insureancea bought and paid for by the people who WORK! Sell your Straw dog somewhere else.

Darn it! Once again, someone quotes DS's mindless babblings which as always includes unsubstantiated and link less misinformation.

"Ignore" doesn't always work regards,

depittydawg
10-15-2010, 12:24 AM
Darn it! Once again, someone quotes DS's mindless babblings which as always includes unsubstantiated and link less misinformation.

"Ignore" doesn't always work regards,

Hey flybreath. Suppose you explain why it is that conservatives have such an issue with forking out a little support for the 10 million or so children in this nation who don't have healthcare? Dispute that numbers? Look it up yourself. Suppose you also include in your answer how you don't give a rats ass about those who go without so you can make your pathetic living peddling bogus insurance fraud products to decent Americans. Ignore only works if you've got the self restraint to not peak you mindless drone.

road kill
10-15-2010, 11:53 AM
Hey flybreath. Suppose you explain why it is that conservatives have such an issue with forking out a little support for the 10 million or so children in this nation who don't have healthcare? Dispute that numbers? Look it up yourself. Suppose you also include in your answer how you don't give a rats ass about those who go without so you can make your pathetic living peddling bogus insurance fraud products to decent Americans. Ignore only works if you've got the self restraint to not peak you mindless drone.

Yeah, what he said.

Tell this to dnf will ya???
He claims to have put me on ignore and responds to more of my posts now than he did when he read them.......:rolleyes:



RK

ducknwork
10-15-2010, 12:07 PM
Ignore only works if you've got the self restraint to not peak you mindless drone.

Or...it could be because someone quoted you, genius.;)

WaterDogRem
10-15-2010, 01:30 PM
Hey flybreath. Suppose you explain why it is that conservatives have such an issue with forking out a little support for the 10 million or so children in this nation who don't have healthcare? Dispute that numbers? Look it up yourself. Suppose you also include in your answer how you don't give a rats ass about those who go without so you can make your pathetic living peddling bogus insurance fraud products to decent Americans. Ignore only works if you've got the self restraint to not peak you mindless drone.

So DD, why do you think those 10 million or so children do not have healthcare (think you mean insurance)????

dnf777
10-15-2010, 02:11 PM
Or...it could be because someone quoted you, genius.;)

Could someone please tell RK to drop his DNF fetish? I haven't posted on this thread, yet he still uses my name??

Cody Covey
10-15-2010, 02:28 PM
Since when did I become responsible for 10 million children...I was smart enough not to have one what happened to the parents of those children!

Hoosier
10-15-2010, 03:32 PM
Since when did I become responsible for 10 million children...I was smart enough not to have one what happened to the parents of those children!

They're hiding behind those kids, and using them as an excuse to be fed, clothed, and have shelter provided for themselves. Can't feed the kids without momma stuffing her face too.

code3retrievers
10-15-2010, 07:11 PM
Just can't seem to get my mind around the conservatives mission to deprive people of healthcare. And lets not forget the fact that most of the uninsured in this country are children. Kind of weird. But then, considering what these people are all about, it isn't surprising.

What a bunch of BS. I can not find one state that does not offer free or extremely reduced health care for poor childern. AZ has ACCSS and other states have similar programs. The programs are already in place on the local level. No body is withholding health care from anyone, at least it is no worse then the federal plan will be and a lot cheaper too.

I love the way you phrase "conservatives mission to deprive people of healthcare", thats just as bad as saying the liberals aggenda is to enslave the masses. Both statements are stupid.

Eric Johnson
10-15-2010, 09:45 PM
Hey flybreath. Suppose you explain why it is that conservatives have such an issue with forking out a little support for the 10 million or so children in this nation who don't have healthcare?

This rather clearly shows the gap between liberals and conservatives today. To liberals, this suit is about healthcare as if the suit attacks the only way healthcare can be delivered. To conservatives, this suit is about preserving constitutional relationships and issues and the marketplace. The same suit would have been brought if Congress had passed a Universal Auto Ownership Act and required people to pay into a fund that gave some members of society free autos.

Eric

M&K's Retrievers
10-16-2010, 12:44 AM
Hey flybreath. Suppose you explain why it is that conservatives have such an issue with forking out a little support for the 10 million or so children in this nation who don't have healthcare? Dispute that numbers? Look it up yourself. Suppose you also include in your answer how you don't give a rats ass about those who go without so you can make your pathetic living peddling bogus insurance fraud products to decent Americans. Ignore only works if you've got the self restraint to not peak you mindless drone.

Since RK quoted you, I guess I should respond. You have taken the liberty to show your ignorance while accusing me of selling "bogus insurance fraud products to decent Americans". Kiddo, you have insulted me, my profession as well the companies I represent while exposing your total lack of information about this and every other subject you attempt to address. I and the companies I represent have provided valuable protection to individuals seeking to buy coverage rather than live off the government or other hand outs. You, on the other hand, would rather have someone else give you something for nothing. Go see your parents if you need help. Not everyone feels they deserve to be cared for by others like you do. Should we provide your groceries, your utilities, your legal fees, housing? Why stop with insurance? Let's just give you everything you need for nothing. Now that I think about it, if you had everything you want, you wouldn't have anything to biotch about on POTUS.

One other thing. Where do you come off attacking someones profession when you know nothing about it? Where do you come off complaining about insurance when I bet you have collected more than you have paid in premiums (your employer probably paid most of that).

Grow up little man and get a grip and stop insulting posters regards,

depittydawg
10-16-2010, 01:25 AM
Since RK quoted you, I guess I should respond. You have taken the liberty to show your ignorance while accusing me of selling "bogus insurance fraud products to decent Americans". Kiddo, you have insulted me, my profession as well the companies I represent while exposing your total lack of information about this and every other subject you attempt to address. I and the companies I represent have provided valuable protection to individuals seeking to buy coverage rather than live off the government or other hand outs. You, on the other hand, would rather have someone else give you something for nothing. Go see your parents if you need help. Not everyone feels they deserve to be cared for by others like you do. Should we provide your groceries, your utilities, your legal fees, housing? Why stop with insurance? Let's just give you everything you need for nothing. Now that I think about it, if you had everything you want, you wouldn't have anything to biotch about on POTUS.

One other thing. Where do you come off attacking someones profession when you know nothing about it? Where do you come off complaining about insurance when I bet you have collected more than you have paid in premiums (your employer probably paid most of that).

Grow up little man and get a grip and stop insulting posters regards,

Tell you what, you quit insulting me at every opportunity that comes your way, and I'll do the same. I have never insulted you other than to RESPOND to an insult you've flung my way. Keep doing it, and I'll keep letting you have it back.
As far as your profession. You represent an industry that has shut out nearly 50 million Americans from access to healthcare over the last 20 years or so. And it gets worse every year. Your industry has CEO's retiring with Billions of dollars of ripped off money, while their clients go bankrupt, suffer and even die because guys like you sift through legal mumbu jumbo searching for loopholes to defraud your customers. Your industry saddles America with the HIGHEST cost healthcare system in the world with one of the lowest outcomes of any industrialized nation. The fact that you make a living selling insurance is not dishonest. The fact that you defend the status quo of a corrupt, dishonest, industry that is ripping off consumers speaks volumes for your lack of decency.
I know a lot of insurance salesman and women who are fighting harder than I am for reform of the Health Insurance industry. They live it everyday. They see the customers who have paid all their lives all of a sudden cut off when the need the insurance. They see claims denied and have to deal with the back offices that exist only to deny claims. These people have integrity, are honest, and are hard workers. They see the flaws in the system and are trying to change it. They live everyday within the environment of self serving greed from the far distant offices that try to dictate who is, and who isn't illegible, among their paying customers, to receive care. These decent folks are not sitting back on their haunches trying to defend or perpetuate a failed industry. They see the flaws in their industry and are trying to fight it.
The fact that you work in the Health Insurance Industry and understand how it works, and persist in defending it, isn't something you should be bragging about. What company do you work for? I've dealt with several over the last several years. By far the worst company for its customers is United Health Care. Regency Blue Cross / Blue Shield was a decent company except that they tried to deny just about every claim until pushed back against. I now have Aetna. They have proven to be a decent company. Yes, you are correct. I have insurance through my employer. I have no choice in the matter. Since I'm over 50 years old, no insurance company will take a personal policy out on me or my wife. Neither of us has ever been seriously ill. A few years ago I had United Healthcare. Never saw such a callous organisation in my life, in any business. They denied claims, lost paperwork, caused so many roadblocks and obstacles that I tried to drop it from work and buy my own. That's when I found out NO insurance company would sell my family a policy. Now isn't that a nice twist. I've never been uninsured in my life. I've paid premiums for 35 years and other than a few office visits and a broken leg never used the insurance. But, no, they can't sell a policy to someone my age. Hell, I might actually get sick. So keep on defending your industry. Sooner or later you won't have an industry to defend.

depittydawg
10-16-2010, 01:45 AM
What a bunch of BS. I can not find one state that does not offer free or extremely reduced health care for poor childern. AZ has ACCSS and other states have similar programs. The programs are already in place on the local level. No body is withholding health care from anyone, at least it is no worse then the federal plan will be and a lot cheaper too.

I love the way you phrase "conservatives mission to deprive people of healthcare", thats just as bad as saying the liberals aggenda is to enslave the masses. Both statements are stupid.

Let me spell it out for you. Conservatives, Republicans, whatever you want to call them, BLOCKED all attempts at reforming the system that currently denies about 50 million people healthcare coverage. Not a day goes by on this site that conservatives don't rant and rave about somebody getting a handout that didn't earn it.
It's not a lack of resources. It's not a lack of money. Hell, while United Healthcare was busily trying to deny every office visit my family needed, their CEO retired with like 7 BILLION dollars. How in the world did this guy get so much money? Where did that money come from? Was it providing healthcare? Not... It was because he created an empire of 'professionals' who made a science out of collecting premiums from their customers and then getting out of upholding their end of the contract when it came due.
So let me ask again. What is it about conservatives that makes them so appalled at reaching out a hand to help others in need?
The Republican Party, its representatives, whom you place in their positions, have fought against not only healthcare, but every other system that is designed to help people who can't help themselves. So, what the hell. Are you all so greedy you can't stand the thought of helping someone else? Have you completely lost or forgot the meaning of sacrifice? Take a step back and just look what you guys are advocating. You want to turn the clock back to 1920?
You mention the State run systems that provide services to children and others. Conservatives have fought, and continue to fight these programs at every level. The fact that they exist is not a credit to ANY conservative initiative that I've ever seen. They exist only because Republicans, and conservative LOST those battles.
So one more time. What is it about HELPING people in need that gets the blood of Conservatives boiling? A simple question.

depittydawg
10-16-2010, 02:00 AM
This rather clearly shows the gap between liberals and conservatives today. To liberals, this suit is about healthcare as if the suit attacks the only way healthcare can be delivered. To conservatives, this suit is about preserving constitutional relationships and issues and the marketplace. The same suit would have been brought if Congress had passed a Universal Auto Ownership Act and required people to pay into a fund that gave some members of society got free autos.

Eric

On its merit, this lawsuit does expose some legitimate questions to various parts of the healthcare changes. Which, BTW, I was against it in its final form. Specifically, the fine, or whatever it is that is imposed for not paying into the system. Now, keep in mind that we ended up with this 'fine' because conservatives, and also some Democratic congressional leaders would NOT budge in adopting a single payer system in any form. Without total participation, it becomes extremely expensive to cover everyone. So we end up with this ridiculous idea of collecting fines from people who opt out of coverage (which they should be mandated to pay for in the first place)

On these merits, I actually side with the states. But make no mistake about it. This law suit is NOT driven by constitutional principles. It is an orchestrated attempt to stop reform of the health industry in its tracks. The constitutionality issues are secondary. The same coalition who is trying to use the constitution now, has in the past, and will continue to shred the constitution when it becomes necessary to their end.
I hope the courts throw the entire healthcare package out. I also hope the Republicans win control over one or both houses. Remember that 70% of Americans want a single payer system. That's a huge number. Let the Republicans figure out how to make that happen. Instead of playing the obstructionist game, and being the party of NO, they will be the party in power. And they will be charged with getting the job done. Should be fun to watch them squirm again.

david gibson
10-16-2010, 05:33 AM
ok all you liberal dipwits - spin this one, please

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Medicare loses seven times as much money in fraud every year than the combined profits of the 14 health insurance companies on the Fortune 500." Yet here's Harry Reid getting paid off on a land deal in Vegas, impugning insurance companies for seeking profit and "almost destroying our economy" when he and his buddies in the Democrat Party are in the process of doing just that.

In the systems they devise for our health care -- Medicare, Medicaid -- there's so much fraud (and who knows who's getting paid off on this) that it dwarfs the combined profit of 14 health insurance companies in the Fortune 500. This is just an out-and-out outrageous, despicable lie and is typical of what we've been getting of the Democrat Party for as long as I've been listening to 'em speak. Government great! Government God! Profits destroy! Profits destroy economy. Profits destroy the country. Companies, corporations want profits. They don't care about people. Only Democrats care about people. Only Democrats care about the little guy -- unless you're unborn in the womb and then you're on your own. "
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"As 60 Minutes reported last week, Medicare fraud is rampant and has now replaced the cocaine (ahem) business as the major criminal activity in South Florida. Both 60 Minutes and the Washington Post report that Medicare fraud now costs American taxpayers roughly $60 billion a year. That may sound like a lot of money, but surely it pales next to the extraordinary profits of private insurance companies, right?

Well, let's see.... Last year, the profits of the ten largest insurance companies in America were just over $8 billion -- combined. No single insurance company made even five percent of what Medicare reportedly loses in fraud."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

so, dippity doo dah, actually it is doctors and their fraud (do we have any here?):confused: that are and have been the real culprit, so instead of harping on MK for his profession, why not place the blame where it really lies - the doctors that have medicare fraud down to an art form.

depittydawg
10-16-2010, 11:06 AM
ok all you liberal dipwits - spin this one, please

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Medicare loses seven times as much money in fraud every year than the combined profits of the 14 health insurance companies on the Fortune 500." Yet here's Harry Reid getting paid off on a land deal in Vegas, impugning insurance companies for seeking profit and "almost destroying our economy" when he and his buddies in the Democrat Party are in the process of doing just that.

In the systems they devise for our health care -- Medicare, Medicaid -- there's so much fraud (and who knows who's getting paid off on this) that it dwarfs the combined profit of 14 health insurance companies in the Fortune 500. This is just an out-and-out outrageous, despicable lie and is typical of what we've been getting of the Democrat Party for as long as I've been listening to 'em speak. Government great! Government God! Profits destroy! Profits destroy economy. Profits destroy the country. Companies, corporations want profits. They don't care about people. Only Democrats care about people. Only Democrats care about the little guy -- unless you're unborn in the womb and then you're on your own. "
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"As 60 Minutes reported last week, Medicare fraud is rampant and has now replaced the cocaine (ahem) business as the major criminal activity in South Florida. Both 60 Minutes and the Washington Post report that Medicare fraud now costs American taxpayers roughly $60 billion a year. That may sound like a lot of money, but surely it pales next to the extraordinary profits of private insurance companies, right?

Well, let's see.... Last year, the profits of the ten largest insurance companies in America were just over $8 billion -- combined. No single insurance company made even five percent of what Medicare reportedly loses in fraud."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

so, dippity doo dah, actually it is doctors and their fraud (do we have any here?):confused: that are and have been the real culprit, so instead of harping on MK for his profession, why not place the blame where it really lies - the doctors that have medicare fraud down to an art form.

I have spoken to several Doctors, nurses and healthcare providers over the last few years. Every one of them is an advocate of single payer healthcare. They live the life, and bare the expense of dealing with the fraudulent health insurance companies on a daily basis. Not once, has a healthcare professional responded to my inquiries with a positive assessment of the current state of healthcare, as administered by the Insurance Companies of America.
The fact that Medicare has issues is just another factor presenting the need for healthcare reform in America. Why did the Republican Party BLOCK all attemps at reform. Why did they NOT offer up any proposals for reform of their own?
I'll say one more thing, then I'm done with this topic. We can agree to disagree. When reform is necessary, a public institution, such as Medicare is directly responsive to the political leaders we put in place. They can clean it up. When an private industry, such as healthcare today (their are many other examples), spins out of control it is a much more difficult task to initiate change. Another good argument for a public option.

caryalsobrook
10-16-2010, 02:21 PM
I have spoken to several Doctors, nurses and healthcare providers over the last few years. Every one of them is an advocate of single payer healthcare. They live the life, and bare the expense of dealing with the fraudulent health insurance companies on a daily basis. Not once, has a healthcare professional responded to my inquiries with a positive assessment of the current state of healthcare, as administered by the Insurance Companies of America.
The fact that Medicare has issues is just another factor presenting the need for healthcare reform in America. Why did the Republican Party BLOCK all attemps at reform. Why did they NOT offer up any proposals for reform of their own?
I'll say one more thing, then I'm done with this topic. We can agree to disagree. When reform is necessary, a public institution, such as Medicare is directly responsive to the political leaders we put in place. They can clean it up. When an private industry, such as healthcare today (their are many other examples), spins out of control it is a much more difficult task to initiate change. Another good argument for a public option.

You say you have asked for a healthcare professional's opinion of insurance companies and have not gotten any. Well, here is mine. In 35 years of practice, I had EXACTLY 2 disagreements with insurance companies (excluding government policies and I will get to them later), that were not easily resolved. One was handled by me by filling out the insurance claims in such a manner that that portion of the claim in question was paid, and the other portion was never meant to be done and was not even turned in for payment. Hard to explain what I did but never the less the claim was paid and the insurance company said that I should not submit claims in that fashion again. The second was resolved by telling the patient that if the insurance company continued to refuse to pay the calim that if he would take them to small claims court, I would testify as an expert witness on his behalf for nothing and if he lost then he would owe me nothing. He subsequently gave the company 10 days to pay the claim or he would take them to court. They paid the claim. They were so long ago that I can't even remember the insurance companies. Now fo the government sponsered insurance that I agreed to participate in.

During the Bush 1 presidency when the US went to war with Iraq to free Kuwait, I decided to sign up as a provider with United Concordia in order to treat the families of our soldiers. The reimbursement was quite low and barely covered my cost. I had been in the Navy reserve from 1961-1967 and had seen and had been the beneficiary of Lyndon Johnson's policy of drafting kids out of high school and sending them to Vietnam when I who had years befor the war along with those during the war were exempted from serving on the battlefront. I am sure I could have volunteered for active duty but did not. This haunts me to this day. Inany event I felt that maybe this would in some measure make up for this. In three years, I had 3 claims that were never resolved. Two of them resulted in the patients having to pay the bill. The other one resulted in me having to mark of the bill as no payment at all. The standard response from the insurance company was "you have to understand that this is government insurance". Totally dissatisfied by the treatment of both my patients and me by this insurance, I sent them a letter terminating my participation. Some of the patients stayed with me and and paid the increased costs. Some probably sought treatment elsewhere but probably had to drive quite a distance to find a provider who would accept their insurance.
THis is the extent of the significant difficulties that I had with dental insurance- 2 with employer based insurance in 35 years and 3 with military or government insurance in 3 years.

On a personal note I would suggest that you not hide behind the statement that you only responded to posts by M&K Retrievers (I think this is his handle) rudely when he had ridiculed you. I remind you that the very first post which had nothing to do with you (I don't even remenber the topic of the post and I had not even seen one of your posts and knew nothing of you) brought a response form you that "ALL THE DENTISTS YOU KNEW PLAYED GOLF ALL THE TIME AND NEVER WORKED", implying they were paid greatly for doing little work. I responded that "if dentistry was so easy and so lucritive they why weren't you a dentist"?
It is easy to criticize other people's profession and their rewards of their success and I will say again that 5% of the people I worked with caused 95% of the problems and 95% of the people caused 5% of the problems. If I were you I would not take a poll on which group you fall in.

You talk about care of children. I like MOST other dentists have provided care freely for those who we have decided are disadvantaged. This was done along with the grateful help of other concerned citizens who felt a need to make their community a better place to live. Most of these people don't talk about their service nor do they bitch about the lack of it. They just pitch in with their time to help those who can't help themselves. In my experience, they aren't the ones who bitch, they are the ones who donate their time and effort and they don't use as an excuse that the government is responsible. Conservative or liberal has nothing to do with it. There are two types- those that are too lazy to pitch in and help and expect the government to do it and those who are willing to pitch in and help those who CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES. Each of us has to decide which group they fall.

depittydawg
10-16-2010, 02:51 PM
You say you have asked for a healthcare professional's opinion of insurance companies and have not gotten any. Well, here is mine. In 35 years of practice, I had EXACTLY 2 disagreements with insurance companies (excluding government policies and I will get to them later), that were not easily resolved. One was handled by me by filling out the insurance claims in such a manner that that portion of the claim in question was paid, and the other portion was never meant to be done and was not even turned in for payment. Hard to explain what I did but never the less the claim was paid and the insurance company said that I should not submit claims in that fashion again. The second was resolved by telling the patient that if the insurance company continued to refuse to pay the calim that if he would take them to small claims court, I would testify as an expert witness on his behalf for nothing and if he lost then he would owe me nothing. He subsequently gave the company 10 days to pay the claim or he would take them to court. They paid the claim. They were so long ago that I can't even remember the insurance companies. Now fo the government sponsered insurance that I agreed to participate in.

During the Bush 1 presidency when the US went to war with Iraq to free Kuwait, I decided to sign up as a provider with United Concordia in order to treat the families of our soldiers. The reimbursement was quite low and barely covered my cost. I had been in the Navy reserve from 1961-1967 and had seen and had been the beneficiary of Lyndon Johnson's policy of drafting kids out of high school and sending them to Vietnam when I who had years befor the war along with those during the war were exempted from serving on the battlefront. I am sure I could have volunteered for active duty but did not. This haunts me to this day. Inany event I felt that maybe this would in some measure make up for this. In three years, I had 3 claims that were never resolved. Two of them resulted in the patients having to pay the bill. The other one resulted in me having to mark of the bill as no payment at all. The standard response from the insurance company was "you have to understand that this is government insurance". Totally dissatisfied by the treatment of both my patients and me by this insurance, I sent them a letter terminating my participation. Some of the patients stayed with me and and paid the increased costs. Some probably sought treatment elsewhere but probably had to drive quite a distance to find a provider who would accept their insurance.
THis is the extent of the significant difficulties that I had with dental insurance- 2 with employer based insurance in 35 years and 3 with military or government insurance in 3 years.

On a personal note I would suggest that you not hide behind the statement that you only responded to posts by M&K Retrievers (I think this is his handle) rudely when he had ridiculed you. I remind you that the very first post which had nothing to do with you (I don't even remenber the topic of the post and I had not even seen one of your posts and knew nothing of you) brought a response form you that "ALL THE DENTISTS YOU KNEW PLAYED GOLF ALL THE TIME AND NEVER WORKED", implying they were paid greatly for doing little work. I responded that "if dentistry was so easy and so lucritive they why weren't you a dentist"?
It is easy to criticize other people's profession and their rewards of their success and I will say again that 5% of the people I worked with caused 95% of the problems and 95% of the people caused 5% of the problems. If I were you I would not take a poll on which group you fall in.

You talk about care of children. I like MOST other dentists have provided care freely for those who we have decided are disadvantaged. This was done along with the grateful help of other concerned citizens who felt a need to make their community a better place to live. Most of these people don't talk about their service nor do they bitch about the lack of it. They just pitch in with their time to help those who can't help themselves. In my experience, they aren't the ones who bitch, they are the ones who donate their time and effort and they don't use as an excuse that the government is responsible. Conservative or liberal has nothing to do with it. There are two types- those that are too lazy to pitch in and help and expect the government to do it and those who are willing to pitch in and help those who CAN'T HELP THEMSELVES. Each of us has to decide which group they fall.

Well here a few comments on what you said here.

1. I've have not heard an outcry from American citizens for reform of Dental Insurance coverage. I have never spoken to my dentist, or others whom I know about it. I personally have never had an issue with an insurance company disqualifying me, or anyone I know, for purchasing Dental Coverage at reasonable rates. Perhaps this model could be used for Medical Insurance, which is what the nation has been debating for about 20 years now.

2. I said I HAVE received several opinions from Doctors and nurses in the healthcare profession. All of those whom I have spoken with have expressed frustration over the dealings and expense they have to incur with insurance companies. They have also stated that a single payer system of some type would be an improvement over what we have today. Granted, I have not done surveys, or polled large numbers of people, but I do believe several physicians organizations were in the front line of pushing the federal government for healthcare reform.

3. I have never written anything concerning Dentists or Doctors playing golf. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. I state here that I will refrain from insulting others on this site. I know I will continue to be assaulted from time to time; but I will make another attempt to ignore it.

caryalsobrook
10-16-2010, 04:44 PM
Well here a few comments on what you said here.

1. I've have not heard an outcry from American citizens for reform of Dental Insurance coverage. I have never spoken to my dentist, or others whom I know about it. I personally have never had an issue with an insurance company disqualifying me, or anyone I know, for purchasing Dental Coverage at reasonable rates. Perhaps this model could be used for Medical Insurance, which is what the nation has been debating for about 20 years now.

2. I said I HAVE received several opinions from Doctors and nurses in the healthcare profession. All of those whom I have spoken with have expressed frustration over the dealings and expense they have to incur with insurance companies. They have also stated that a single payer system of some type would be an improvement over what we have today. Granted, I have not done surveys, or polled large numbers of people, but I do believe several physicians organizations were in the front line of pushing the federal government for healthcare reform.

3. I have never written anything concerning Dentists or Doctors playing golf. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else. I state here that I will refrain from insulting others on this site. I know I will continue to be assaulted from time to time; but I will make another attempt to ignore it.

I apologize about the golf statement. You are right, it was another person who made the comment in april. Concerning dentistry, it has less government involvement with government than medicine, optometry, chiropracticnursing home, hospital or any other health profession that I know of. It doesn't even come under medicare but is covered my medicaid but with very small participation by dentists. Maybe that is the reason it doesn't have the problems the other fields have- less government involvement.
Like my liberal economics college professor sister who I love dearly, you support socialized healthcare(alias single payor) system. As she didn't realize, there will be no charitable treatment under such a system since the level of care will be determined by bureaucrats. Doctors will be allowed to work only for the government and cannot be paid by a private person. By fee structure, they will be controled where they can live and practice. To understand this fully look at the Canadian system where canadians are forced to come to the US for treatment in order to avoid long waits or denial by bureaucrats of the level of care they seek. If that is too far from you take a look at the system in the state of Mass where doctors are forced to perform medicaid services in order to retain their licenses'. I don't thing even George Romney, the republican Govener at the time they implemented the system will praise that system since costs and wait time have increased greatly.
I wonder if you realize that if the US implements socialized healtcare then the provider no longer works for you, he works for the government. I for my part if I am made to work for the government and not the patient then I think I will care more about meeting gov. goals than the patients and if they don't like it then TS.
Again, not knowing where your live, I am sure that if you contact a dentist or physician they will be glad to refer you to a number of groups who provide charitable treatment to those who are unable to help themselves. Lay services are always need and any time you donate will be greatly appreciated.

code3retrievers
10-16-2010, 07:46 PM
Let me spell it out for you. Conservatives, Republicans, whatever you want to call them, BLOCKED all attempts at reforming the system that currently denies about 50 million people healthcare coverage. Not a day goes by on this site that conservatives don't rant and rave about somebody getting a handout that didn't earn it.
It's not a lack of resources. It's not a lack of money. Hell, while United Healthcare was busily trying to deny every office visit my family needed, their CEO retired with like 7 BILLION dollars. How in the world did this guy get so much money? Where did that money come from? Was it providing healthcare? Not... It was because he created an empire of 'professionals' who made a science out of collecting premiums from their customers and then getting out of upholding their end of the contract when it came due.
So let me ask again. What is it about conservatives that makes them so appalled at reaching out a hand to help others in need?
The Republican Party, its representatives, whom you place in their positions, have fought against not only healthcare, but every other system that is designed to help people who can't help themselves. So, what the hell. Are you all so greedy you can't stand the thought of helping someone else? Have you completely lost or forgot the meaning of sacrifice? Take a step back and just look what you guys are advocating. You want to turn the clock back to 1920?
You mention the State run systems that provide services to children and others. Conservatives have fought, and continue to fight these programs at every level. The fact that they exist is not a credit to ANY conservative initiative that I've ever seen. They exist only because Republicans, and conservative LOST those battles.
So one more time. What is it about HELPING people in need that gets the blood of Conservatives boiling? A simple question.

You asked so you get a response. I help out the poor every day in my profession. I also see the abuse as well as those in need. I will spell it out for you. There are programs in place already. There is not a need for a national federal program.
The difference between liberals and conservatives is not that one does not want to give, it is how it is given. Conservatives believe in charities and your type believe in stealing it from the working and giving it to the lazy or irresponsible.
I have had insurance since the age of 21 not because I had a high paying job but because I had priorities. For those that can not afford it there are already programs.
The reason the health care system is so screwed up is because your types have been meddling in it for years. Every time you attempt to fix something you make it worse. Obamacare is just the latest.
I can't wait to see the abuse the system cause in the next few years and your 50 million number is a bunch of B.S. like the rest of your quotes. You become more extreme every day. Can't wait for next month to send your types packing.

Gerry Clinchy
10-16-2010, 08:17 PM
dippity doo dah, actually it is doctors and their fraud (do we have any here?)

Actually, the NY Times reported on the largest single Medicare fraud yesterday (I think) ... a bunch of Hungarians (!) who stole identities of both doctors & patients & submitted billings to Medicare from bogus clinics. No services were ever provided to anyone.

They collected $35 million before anybody caught on. They had billed about $100 million. When queries arrived from Medicare (after the bills had been paid), the clinic simply disappeared. It was never more than a post-office box. And the criminals opened up another "clinic" & continued the scam.

I wonder why we never hear of fraud in UK or Canada? Nobody has figured out how to bilk the system? Doesn't seem likely.

Gerry Clinchy
10-16-2010, 08:23 PM
Only in the United States ... the Fed is suing Arizona. Florida is suing the Fed. And the latest is that Holder doesn't think that MJ should be legalized for recreational use, so even if the electorate favors legalization, the Fed will continue to enforce Fed laws against MJ. Will the Fed have to sue California, too? Holder's position is that it would be impossible to enforce laws differently in different states.

Not to mention that law enforcement is fighting a battle to substitute GPS for the old-fashioned stakeouts and "tails" of suspected criminals. Holder and Obama are siding with law enforcement on that one.

depittydawg
10-16-2010, 09:00 PM
I apologize about the golf statement. You are right, it was another person who made the comment in april. Concerning dentistry, it has less government involvement with government than medicine, optometry, chiropracticnursing home, hospital or any other health profession that I know of. It doesn't even come under medicare but is covered my medicaid but with very small participation by dentists. Maybe that is the reason it doesn't have the problems the other fields have- less government involvement.
Like my liberal economics college professor sister who I love dearly, you support socialized healthcare(alias single payor) system. As she didn't realize, there will be no charitable treatment under such a system since the level of care will be determined by bureaucrats. Doctors will be allowed to work only for the government and cannot be paid by a private person. By fee structure, they will be controled where they can live and practice. To understand this fully look at the Canadian system where canadians are forced to come to the US for treatment in order to avoid long waits or denial by bureaucrats of the level of care they seek. If that is too far from you take a look at the system in the state of Mass where doctors are forced to perform medicaid services in order to retain their licenses'. I don't thing even George Romney, the republican Govener at the time they implemented the system will praise that system since costs and wait time have increased greatly.
I wonder if you realize that if the US implements socialized healtcare then the provider no longer works for you, he works for the government. I for my part if I am made to work for the government and not the patient then I think I will care more about meeting gov. goals than the patients and if they don't like it then TS.
Again, not knowing where your live, I am sure that if you contact a dentist or physician they will be glad to refer you to a number of groups who provide charitable treatment to those who are unable to help themselves. Lay services are always need and any time you donate will be greatly appreciated.

Actually, a single payer system does not have to be a government run system. If all Americans were required to buy into healthcare insurance, and Insurance companies were not allowed to cherry pick their customers and disqualify others, I believe a private system of insurers could work.

depittydawg
10-16-2010, 09:18 PM
You asked so you get a response. I help out the poor every day in my profession. I also see the abuse as well as those in need. I will spell it out for you. There are programs in place already. There is not a need for a national federal program.
The difference between liberals and conservatives is not that one does not want to give, it is how it is given. Conservatives believe in charities and your type believe in stealing it from the working and giving it to the lazy or irresponsible.
I have had insurance since the age of 21 not because I had a high paying job but because I had priorities. For those that can not afford it there are already programs.
The reason the health care system is so screwed up is because your types have been meddling in it for years. Every time you attempt to fix something you make it worse. Obamacare is just the latest.
I can't wait to see the abuse the system cause in the next few years and your 50 million number is a bunch of B.S. like the rest of your quotes. You become more extreme every day. Can't wait for next month to send your types packing.

Give some examples of the "meddling" please. Just how did Government "meddling" cause Insurers to disqualify 50 million US citizens from coverage? Please provide the Government actions that led to record profits for healthcare providers while their clients were denied benefits. Please provide ONE example of a system of support for children or poor that was initiated by the GOP.... Ever.
And please explain how the Medicare Expansion into the drug business orchestrated by the conservatives and their failed leader, Mr Bush helped bring down the cost of medicine. Yes, the program with the wisdom to PREVENT Medicare from negotiating prices. Where was the "free market" your kind worships?
And while your at it, could you justify the GOP's never ending efforts to pass subsidies and what amounts to welfare to Giant, wealthy, Corporations while they steadfastly criticize, block, chastise, and humiliate those who advocate Public resources be used to help people.

luvmylabs23139
10-16-2010, 11:30 PM
Public resources?
I'd love your definition of this. Are you refering to the money the gov't confiscates from me that I have earned and then gives it to someone who sits on their fat ass? That is theft.

depittydawg
10-17-2010, 12:06 AM
Public resources?
I'd love your definition of this. Are you refering to the money the gov't confiscates from me that I have earned and then gives it to someone who sits on their fat ass? That is theft.

In your world view, is their no need for Government? Just curious.

Nor_Cal_Angler
10-17-2010, 12:40 AM
In your world view, is their no need for Government? Just curious.

When it comes to the theft of my money, that I work for....NOPE!!!!

Taxes, to my city, county and state are fine by me....becasue that is where I draw my resorces from....but on a federal level...other than to provide for the GREATEST MILITARY IN THE WORLD....the people of the other 49 (or 56 if your Mr Obama) states DONT DESERVE ONE NICKLE.....

but hey I live in COMMIEFORNIA and you live in OREGON so we are BOTH up the creek there...broken states with their eye on everything other than the ball.

NCA

M&K's Retrievers
10-17-2010, 01:52 AM
Tell you what, you quit insulting me at every opportunity that comes your way, and I'll do the same. I have never insulted you other than to RESPOND to an insult you've flung my way. Keep doing it, and I'll keep letting you have it back. I have tried to educate you and help you through several threads but all you can do is gripe, moan and make false accusations.
As far as your profession. You represent an industry that has shut out nearly 50 million Americans from access to healthcare over the last 20 years or so. The insurance industry cannot force people to buy coverage. They offer products which people can purchase if they so desire. You went from 10M kids uninsured to 50M people uninsured. Which is it, DS? Actually it's neither. There are about 17M which cannot either afford coverage og are uninsurable. As I have said before, these people should be taken care but not by the insurance companies but by government programs. And it gets worse every year. Your industry has CEO's retiring with Billions of dollars of ripped off money, while their clients go bankrupt, suffer and even die because guys like you sift through legal mumbu jumbo searching for loopholes to defraud your customers.This is total BS and you have no facts to prove your claim. Your industry saddles America with the HIGHEST cost healthcare system in the world Insurance companies do not determine the cost of health care they determine the cost to reimburse insureds for their health care with one of the lowest outcomes of any industrialized nation.I don't know what you are refering to here but we do have the best health care in the world. The fact that you make a living selling insurance is not dishonest. The fact that you defend the status quo of a corrupt, dishonest, industry that is ripping off consumers speaks volumes for your lack of decency. Where are the law suits, the news reports, etc to support this claim?
I know a lot of insurance salesman and women who are fighting harder than I am for reform of the Health Insurance industry.I bet you cannot name three agents or you would know that your claims are ridiculous.I know hundreds of agents through my general agency and my association with the Life and Health Underwriters associations that work every day to improve the industry. They live it everyday. They see the customers who have paid all their lives all of a sudden cut off when the need the insurance. They see claims denied and have to deal with the back offices that exist only to deny claims. In 30+ years I have never seen a client terminated for health reasons nor have legitimate claim issues that could not be resolved These people have integrity, are honest, and are hard workers. They see the flaws in the system and are trying to change it. They live everyday within the environment of self serving greed from the far distant offices that try to dictate who is, and who isn't illegible, among their paying customers, to receive care. These decent folks are not sitting back on their haunches trying to defend or perpetuate a failed industry. They see the flaws in their industry and are trying to fight it.
The fact that you work in the Health Insurance Industry and understand how it works, and persist in defending it, isn't something you should be bragging about. I am very proud of the products and services I have provided my clients over the years. I've never been sued nor have I had a client canceled for anything other than non payment of premium. What company do you work for? I am an independent agent and own my agency. I've dealt with several over the last several years. By far the worst company for its customers is United Health Care. Regency Blue Cross / Blue Shield was a decent company except that they tried to deny just about every claim until pushed back against. I now have Aetna. United HealthCare, Blue Cross and Aetna all enjoy excellent reputations. They have proven to be a decent company. Yes, you are correct. I have insurance through my employer. I have no choice in the matter. Since I'm over 50 years old, no insurance company will take a personal policy out on me or my wife. Neither of us has ever been seriously ill. There are 28 companies in Oregon that offer individual health policies. Many will quote on line. If you and your spouse have no health problems, you can purchase coverage from any one of them. A few years ago I had United Healthcare. Never saw such a callous organisation in my life, in any business. They denied claims, lost paperwork, caused so many roadblocks and obstacles that I tried to drop it from work and buy my own. That's when I found out NO insurance company would sell my family a policy. Like I said above, 28 companies offer individual coverage in Oregon. Have you ever applied and been declined? I doubt it. Why would you since you employer foots the bill? Now isn't that a nice twist. I've never been uninsured in my life. I've paid premiums for 35 years and other than a few office visits and a broken leg never used the insurance. But, no, they can't sell a policy to someone my age. Hell, I might actually get sick. So keep on defending your industry. Sooner or later you won't have an industry to defend. If Obamacare stays unchanged, you are correct. I think the insurance companies will tire of collecting $1 and paying out $1.50

Well. I have been told by several PM's that you have continued to show your apparent ignorance about the insurance and health care industry. I'm not sure if it's ignorance or hate. My comments, which you either can't or don't want to comprehend are in bold above.

M&K's Retrievers
10-17-2010, 02:13 AM
I have spoken to several Doctors, nurses and healthcare providers over the last few years. Every one of them is an advocate of single payer healthcare. Why do I doubt this crock? I have several physician clients all of whom despise the thought of a single payer system. Why would an entrepreneur want to work for the government as an employee? Many age 50+ are considering closing their practices rather than deal with Obamacare. They live the life, and bare the expense of dealing with the fraudulent health insurance companies on a daily basis. Not once, has a healthcare professional responded to my inquiries with a positive assessment of the current state of healthcare, as administered by the Insurance Companies of America. Health care is not administered by insurance companies. Health care is administered by the providers. Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend?
The fact that Medicare has issues is just another factor presenting the need for healthcare reform in America. Why did the Republican Party BLOCK all attemps at reform. Why did they NOT offer up any proposals for reform of their own? They better after 11/2.
I'll say one more thing, then I'm done with this topic. One could hope but you never quit beating a dead horse. We can agree to disagree. When reform is necessary, a public institution, such as Medicare is directly responsive to the political leaders we put in place. They can clean it up. When an private industry, such as healthcare today (their are many other examples), spins out of control it is a much more difficult task to initiate change. Another good argument for a public option.

Stick with manufacturing regards,

M&K's Retrievers
10-17-2010, 02:19 AM
Actually, a single payer system does not have to be a government run system. If all Americans were required to buy into healthcare insurance, and Insurance companies were not allowed to cherry pick their customers and disqualify others, I believe a private system of insurers could work.

Who pays for those that can't afford it?

M&K's Retrievers
10-17-2010, 02:27 AM
Give some examples of the "meddling" please. Just how did Government "meddling" cause Insurers to disqualify 50 million US citizens from coverage? Please provide the Government actions that led to record profits for healthcare providers while their clients were denied benefits. Please provide ONE example of a system of support for children or poor that was initiated by the GOP.... Ever.
And please explain how the Medicare Expansion into the drug business orchestrated by the conservatives and their failed leader, Mr Bush helped bring down the cost of medicine. Yes, the program with the wisdom to PREVENT Medicare from negotiating prices. Where was the "free market" your kind worships?
And while your at it, could you justify the GOP's never ending efforts to pass subsidies and what amounts to welfare to Giant, wealthy, Corporations while they steadfastly criticize, block, chastise, and humiliate those who advocate Public resources be used to help people.

ARRRRRGGGGGGH!! The insurance industry did not disqualify or decline to cover 50M US citizens. You misspeak more than Obama and Biteme combined.

luvmylabs23139
10-17-2010, 01:31 PM
In your world view, is their no need for Government? Just curious.

The gov't should defend our country. They should not be stealing my money and giving it to someone else. I believe in a limited gov't. I DO NOT suport redistribution of wealth, socialism or anything like that. One is entitled to what one earns. GET THAT? EARNS!
If someone is going to have 5 kids they damn well better be prepared to pay for them. It is not my job to pay for the fact that they can't keep their urges under control.

Gerry Clinchy
10-17-2010, 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by depittydawg http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?p=691256#post691256)
Actually, a single payer system does not have to be a government run system. If all Americans were required to buy into healthcare insurance, and Insurance companies were not allowed to cherry pick their customers and disqualify others, I believe a private system of insurers could work.


I cannot imagine how a single-payer system could run with a private system of insurors. If no one insuror has ALL the insureds, then how could one assure thqat all private insurors would have a random selection of high & low risk insureds

Take Company A and Company B ... Since neither can deny insurance to anyone, A may be unlucky enough to end up with an overabundance of high-risk insureds & may have to offer higher premium costs. Company B, OTOH, might end up with many low-risk insureds and offer lower rates. Company A's insureds would quickly leave A and buy coverage from B for the lower rates. Once B's client-mix changed, their rates would increase to offset the higher cost client-mix. Meanwhile, A's rates might decrease until they were approximating those of B.

So the consumers would bounce back and forth between A and B ... and the insurors would always be a bit "behind" in raising their rates to account for the client-mix change.

Either you have a single-payer system or you don't so that the risk is truly evenly spread over one entire system.

Make no mistake, however, if you want to insure everyone the young & healthy are going to have to pay more than they do now to offset those who have health problems & cannot now afford insurance. SOMEbody has to pay for it ...

Right now the insured (and their insurors) pay for the uninsured by paying higher prices to doctors and hospitals so that they can treat the uninsured who cannot pay for the services they are rendered.

And let's not forget that services are also provided for 12 million illegal residents. Doctors and hospitals will continue to treat those patients with no compensation ... so who will pay for those services?

Illegal residents will not be able to receive subsidies for health care under O-care, so how do we handle that problem? We already know that the Fed can't figure out how to deport them now. Since the illegal population is so large, how could the Congress even dream of a health care bill that didn't first address immigration reform simultaneously, when maybe more than 1/3 of the uninsured are illegal residents?

I'll refer again to the Florida hospital that provided milliions of dollars of intensive care treatment to illegal residents & could get no help from the govt in returning the patients to their home countries. Not to mention that the home countries didn't want these sick people back either!

Another hospital in NYC had the same issue with their charitable dialysis unit ... and it finally closed and still sent some of its dialysis patients temporarily, at least, to some other hospitals. Patients involved averred that if returned to their home countries, it would be a death sentence. Their home countries would not be able to provide them with care needed to survive ... at least one of those countries was Mexico, as an example.

While Mexico may have a form of govt health care (that is attracting seniors from the US), it doesn't work well for people who have zero money ... like their own citizens.

For all the maligning our health care system gets from everyone, it seems that the US health care providers are among the most caring people in the whole world. Many, many doctors, nurses and hospitals provide charitable care to those who need it desperately ... even when they can't pay for it.

And, yes, some of that cost is paid by other patients who have coverage or means to pay for care ... so we all share a part of that with the health providers. And isn't that really true of any "business" ... the price of a product includes overhead which includes accounting for those customers who don't pay their bills.

When they constructed this enormous bill, did no one try to analyze the actual problem of the uninsured ... even at 30 million that is 10% of the total population (and substract another 10 million who are illegal residents). It would have simply been easier (and saved a whole lot of time) to assess 1/4% tax to set up a special "pool" for those uninsured for low-cost insurance ... like auto insurance high-risk pools.

And a bill that made no provision for tort reform? Incredible! And now there is under discussion a new income tax break for personal injury attorneys that will make it MORE lucrative for them to pursue frivolous suits. Having been involved in a frivolous lawsuit, I can say firsthand, you have NO idea what an attorney can get away with & profit from as well.

david gibson
10-17-2010, 10:39 PM
its all the insurance companies fault.

doctors are never involved in medicare fraud....:rolleyes: