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dnf777
10-24-2010, 03:14 PM
Steelers-Miami.
Ben's TD fumble.

Ok, they overturned the TD. Suppose they then HAD video showing Miami recovering the ball? During the play on the field, they blew whistles and signaled touchdown, ending play.

How can they go back and say, 'the play wasn't over, and a change of possession occurred, despite signals and whistles being blown?'

That's an issue they'll have to answer, as its not impossible to happen again. They can deny the touchdown, but how can you have a dead-ball change of possession?

Thankfully, that didn't happen THIS time.

BonMallari
10-24-2010, 05:25 PM
I saw that and the ball should have gone over to Miami at the twenty, the line judge was very premature on his call of Ben crossing the plane of the goal line...blown call cost the Dolphins the game...their conclusion was a real chicken**** way out if you ask me

dnf777
10-24-2010, 05:31 PM
I saw that and the ball should have gone over to Miami at the twenty, the line judge was very premature on his call of Ben crossing the plane of the goal line...blown call cost the Dolphins the game...their conclusion was a real chicken**** way out if you ask me

Based on the NFL's rules, I don't think there was conclusive evidence from any ONE shot. Combining two views indeed did seem to show the ball coming out.
So ok, take away the touchdown.

But there is NO WAY you can award a turnover for events that happened after the ref signaled touchdown on the field. The play was over as soon as his arms went up, and anything that happens after that is dead ball. It should have been ruled a loss of possession at the 1/2 yardline, and retained possession, as it was.

I was shocked that they even entertained awarding a turnover on a dead-ball event. Ben better spend some time with the anti-fumble coach this week before heading to NOLA.

I'll cut the line judge some slack. From where he was, he couldn't see the ball as it began to come out, and it is his job to call the ball crossing the plane as soon as it occurs, and stop the play. Yes, I'd be pissed if I were a Miami fan, but I think given the bad call, the replay did its job correctly.

BonMallari
10-24-2010, 06:04 PM
but dnf777 it wasnt a dead ball, it was clearly a fumble and therefore a live ball, clearly a change of possession, whether they give the Steelers the ball on the one yard line or the original line of scrimmage is irrelevant..Steelers lost the ball in the end zone , recovered by Miami -touchback- Miami first down on their own twenty yd line

thats my call and I'm sticking to it..or I can take my ball and go home:p:p

dnf777
10-24-2010, 06:13 PM
but dnf777 it wasnt a dead ball, it was clearly a fumble and therefore a live ball, clearly a change of possession, whether they give the Steelers the ball on the one yard line or the original line of scrimmage is irrelevant..Steelers lost the ball in the end zone , recovered by Miami -touchback- Miami first down on their own twenty yd line

thats my call and I'm sticking to it..or I can take my ball and go home:p:p

I hear you. But ON THE FIELD, DURING THE PLAY, when the ref raised his arms, most quit playing, looking for balls, and even the other officials shifted out of mode, so the play is DEAD. Sure, he may have blown his whistle too soon, I agree, but once it blew and signals went up, you can't continue to judge the ball or players. Its over. Even if its wrong, its over.

Just like if a pass is whistled incomplete, but the guy thinks he caught it and gets up and runs as all the whistles are blowing and guys are slowing down and returning to the huddle. Even if the play is overturned and ruled a catch, you don't allow for the events that occured after the play is whistled dead on the field, and give him a touchdown.

I agree with you, it was a bad call from the start, but the remedy was almost worse than the call. The NFL needs to get a grip on these things. Personally, I think the easiest way would be to eliminate IR altogether, and let the guys in stripes call the game.

Its getting to where when the officials issue the call, it sounds as if they're reading a legal opinion before a court. Next they'll be carrying brief cases and petitions on the field.

BrianW
10-25-2010, 09:03 AM
The NFL needs to get a grip on these things. Personally, I think the easiest way would be to eliminate IR altogether, and let the guys in stripes call the game.

It seems to me that the network coverage is affecting the challenges/affecting the outcome of the game as well. NBC doesn't replay a bobbled GB "TD" until after the PAT, no challenge.
They do replay 2 Vikings "TD's", GB challenges the ruling before the next play and they're overturned.
How about no replays until after the next play or coach disputes/officials decide to review first? Wasn't that the intention?

Roger Perry
10-25-2010, 09:12 AM
Steelers-Miami.
Ben's TD fumble.

Ok, they overturned the TD. Suppose they then HAD video showing Miami recovering the ball? During the play on the field, they blew whistles and signaled touchdown, ending play.

How can they go back and say, 'the play wasn't over, and a change of possession occurred, despite signals and whistles being blown?'

That's an issue they'll have to answer, as its not impossible to happen again. They can deny the touchdown, but how can you have a dead-ball change of possession?

Thankfully, that didn't happen THIS time.

I gotta disagree with you there. I have seen many times where a ball came loose with the ref thinking the player was down before the ball was out ending the play only to have the play challenged and the ref go under the "hood" only to see that the player was not down before the ball came out and the other team recovered the fumble and the call was reversed.

Roger Perry
10-25-2010, 09:18 AM
Based on the NFL's rules, I don't think there was conclusive evidence from any ONE shot. Combining two views indeed did seem to show the ball coming out.
So ok, take away the touchdown.

But there is NO WAY you can award a turnover for events that happened after the ref signaled touchdown on the field. The play was over as soon as his arms went up, and anything that happens after that is dead ball. It should have been ruled a loss of possession at the 1/2 yardline, and retained possession, as it was.

I was shocked that they even entertained awarding a turnover on a dead-ball event. Ben better spend some time with the anti-fumble coach this week before heading to NOLA.

I'll cut the line judge some slack. From where he was, he couldn't see the ball as it began to come out, and it is his job to call the ball crossing the plane as soon as it occurs, and stop the play. Yes, I'd be pissed if I were a Miami fan, but I think given the bad call, the replay did its job correctly.

The Steelers got a gift:(

"When we were down in the pile, (an official) was calling, 'White Ball! White Ball!' " said Alama-Francis, who was in the home team's white jersey. "I was the first person on the ball, had possession of the ball. I wasn't going to let that thing go, because I knew I had possession."
Linebacker Karlos Dansby saw that Alama-Francis had possession. Linebacker Channing Crowder saw it, too.

Cody Covey
10-25-2010, 09:25 AM
The Steelers got a gift:(

"When we were down in the pile, (an official) was calling, 'White Ball! White Ball!' " said Alama-Francis, who was in the home team's white jersey. "I was the first person on the ball, had possession of the ball. I wasn't going to let that thing go, because I knew I had possession."
Linebacker Karlos Dansby saw that Alama-Francis had possession. Linebacker Channing Crowder saw it, too.

All the defense "saw". Odd considering Rothlesberger claimed he was under the pile with the ball and he never let it go...all perspective i suppose

Roger Perry
10-25-2010, 09:59 AM
All the defense "saw". Odd considering Rothlesberger claimed he was under the pile with the ball and he never let it go...all perspective i suppose

If you watched the replay, Roghesberg was sitting on his ass looking around for the ball nowhere near the ball. And you can bet your ass that if a Pitsburg player recovered the football, he would never have let it go as the Miami player held the ball high in the air as he ran off the field. The only call that should have been made was Miami ball at the 20 or a Pittsburg touchdown. Had to be one or the other. We will see in the days ahead because I have a feeling that this will be talked about for awhile.

BonMallari
10-25-2010, 11:00 AM
If you watched the replay, Roghesberg was sitting on his ass looking around for the ball nowhere near the ball. And you can bet your ass that if a Pitsburg player recovered the football, he would never have let it go as the Miami player held the ball high in the air as he ran off the field. The only call that should have been made was Miami ball at the 20 or a Pittsburg touchdown. Had to be one or the other. We will see in the days ahead because I have a feeling that this will be talked about for awhile.

^^^^^^ THIS....

I watched Big Ben claim today that he was on the bottom of the pile with the ball...almost laughable he was no where near the ball...:razz::razz:

Roger Perry
10-25-2010, 11:06 AM
You decide, here is the replay

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVo4HM1sMnE

Cody Covey
10-25-2010, 12:03 PM
You decide, here is the replay

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVo4HM1sMnE

Looks exactly like they said a fumble where they have no way of knowing who gained possession.

Roger Perry
10-25-2010, 12:28 PM
Looks exactly like they said a fumble where they have no way of knowing who gained possession.

I'll say it again, the only 2 possible right calls were either Pittsburg scored a touchdown by recovering the fumble or a touchback where Miami recovered the ball and has possession on the 20. The replay clearly shows 2 Miami players on top of the ball with 2 to 3 Pittsburg players diving in on top. The only time the ball should have gone back to Pittsburg on the 6 inch line is if the ball went out of bounds and no one gained possession before it went out of bounds.

Usually after a fumble there are a stack of players on top of the ball and the officials do not know who has the ball until they unstack the players. The officials did not unstack the players but a Miami player came up with the ball and it should have been a touchback.

Cody Covey
10-25-2010, 01:27 PM
I'll say it again, the only 2 possible right calls were either Pittsburg scored a touchdown by recovering the fumble or a touchback where Miami recovered the ball and has possession on the 20. The replay clearly shows 2 Miami players on top of the ball with 2 to 3 Pittsburg players diving in on top. The only time the ball should have gone back to Pittsburg on the 6 inch line is if the ball went out of bounds and no one gained possession before it went out of bounds.

Usually after a fumble there are a stack of players on top of the ball and the officials do not know who has the ball until they unstack the players. The officials did not unstack the players but a Miami player came up with the ball and it should have been a touchback.
But thats not how the rules work. The call on the field was a touchdown. They overturned that and said it was a fumble but there are a couple problems. First the play was called a touchdown meaning end of play. Second in a NFL replay to overturn an on field decision there must be completely conclusive evidence, clearly there wasn't since it became a pile of 15 people.

Roger Perry
10-25-2010, 01:55 PM
But thats not how the rules work. The call on the field was a touchdown. They overturned that and said it was a fumble but there are a couple problems. First the play was called a touchdown meaning end of play. Second in a NFL replay to overturn an on field decision there must be completely conclusive evidence, clearly there wasn't since it became a pile of 15 people.

So if a loose ball came out at the 50 yard line and the official blew the whistle ending the play saying the ball carrier was down by contact and there were 15 people on top of a loose ball and the official could not see who was at the bottom of the pile with the football and the recovering team challenged the call that the ball carrier was not down by contact that it actually was a fumble and replay showed it was clearly a fumble are you saying that the ball would go back to the team that fumbled the ball because replay could not determine which team recovered the ball?

Every time I saw a play like that the officials unstacked the pile to see who ended up with the ball. The Miami player clearly came out of the pile with the ball. I can't imagine that a Pittsburg player would hand the ball to a Miami player if he had recovered the ball himself.

YardleyLabs
10-25-2010, 02:26 PM
So if a loose ball came out at the 50 yard line and the official blew the whistle ending the play saying the ball carrier was down by contact and there were 15 people on top of a loose ball and the official could not see who was at the bottom of the pile with the football and the recovering team challenged the call that the ball carrier was not down by contact that it actually was a fumble and replay showed it was clearly a fumble are you saying that the ball would go back to the team that fumbled the ball because replay could not determine which team recovered the ball?

Every time I saw a play like that the officials unstacked the pile to see who ended up with the ball. The Miami player clearly came out of the pile with the ball. I can't imagine that a Pittsburg player would hand the ball to a Miami player if he had recovered the ball himself.
When there is a pileup with the ball at the bottom, the ref's blow the ball dead and then sort out who has it. The play is dead.

If the ball is knocked out of the QB's hands and the ref blows the whistle, ending play, before anyone covers the ball, the play is dead regardless of whether replay shows that it was actually a fumble. The ref should not blow the whistle in that case until the ball has been covered by one side or the other.

BTRW, Biran Dawkins used to brag about how often he stole the ball at the bottom of the pile. If necessary, he would try to break the fingers of the player with possession.

It is completely unfair. However, the players are supposed to stop play when the whistle blows whether it it right or wrong. You have no way of knowing what might have happened if the whistle has not been blown and cannot allow the players that ignored the whistled to be rewarded. That is why a ref call of down by contact is not open to challenge, while a ref's failure to stop play when a player is down by contact is subject to review.

Roger Perry
10-25-2010, 03:00 PM
When there is a pileup with the ball at the bottom, the ref's blow the ball dead and then sort out who has it. The play is dead.

If the ball is knocked out of the QB's hands and the ref blows the whistle, ending play, before anyone covers the ball, the play is dead regardless of whether replay shows that it was actually a fumble. The ref should not blow the whistle in that case until the ball has been covered by one side or the other.

BTRW, Biran Dawkins used to brag about how often he stole the ball at the bottom of the pile. If necessary, he would try to break the fingers of the player with possession.

It is completely unfair. However, the players are supposed to stop play when the whistle blows whether it it right or wrong. You have no way of knowing what might have happened if the whistle has not been blown and cannot allow the players that ignored the whistled to be rewarded. That is why a ref call of down by contact is not open to challenge, while a ref's failure to stop play when a player is down by contact is subject to review.

I have heard many times an official saying "runner was ruled down by contact, such and such is chalenging that ruling."

dnf777
10-25-2010, 03:07 PM
I can't imagine that a Pittsburg player would hand the ball to a Miami player if he had recovered the ball himself.

Not unless he looked up and saw the official signaling "touchdown" and heard whistles!

And that's my point. Once the play is dead, and people stop playing, and officials stop officiating, you cannot award a change of posession or any other action that occured! It altered the activity on the field. Dead ball at the point of the call. Fix it, but don't retroactively allow the play to continue.

I admit. Bad call. But they made the best they could out of it.

Ben should have just hung on to the damn ball!

dnf777
10-25-2010, 03:12 PM
I have heard many times an official saying "runner was ruled down by contact, such and such is chalenging that ruling."

That is in the event of a ball that pops loose. Since the ground cannot cause a fumble, if a team thinks the ground did NOT cause the fumble, ie the player was not down, they will challenge "down by contact". Different situation altogether. If a change of posession is awarded, it is at that spot. They do not allow the play to continue in retrospect if half the players are mulling back to the huddle and some showboat is strutting down the field with the ball.

The signaling of "touchdown" definitavely ends all play. Some guys might have been fighting for the ball, others may have been trying to get up and celebrate or pout.

Roger Perry
10-25-2010, 03:40 PM
That is in the event of a ball that pops loose. Since the ground cannot cause a fumble, if a team thinks the ground did NOT cause the fumble, ie the player was not down, they will challenge "down by contact". Different situation altogether. If a change of posession is awarded, it is at that spot. They do not allow the play to continue in retrospect if half the players are mulling back to the huddle and some showboat is strutting down the field with the ball.

The signaling of "touchdown" definitavely ends all play. Some guys might have been fighting for the ball, others may have been trying to get up and celebrate or pout.

Your only saying that because your team benefited.;) However had the shoe been on the other foot ----------then it would have been sour grapes

BonMallari
10-25-2010, 04:07 PM
the signal of touchdown was for the ball crossing the plane of the goal line, unfortunately it was not in anyones possession until a WHITE JERSEY pounced on it...and the ground didnt cause the fumble , it was the defensive hit on Ben's arm..

Dolphins got robbed...end of story

Cowboys fan regards

dnf777
10-25-2010, 04:11 PM
Your only saying that because your team benefited.;) However had the shoe been on the other foot ----------then it would have been sour grapes

I fully admit it was a bad call....several times. Lets not mention the holding calls (one of which was so absent, they wouldn't even show a replay b/c they couldn't find anyone holding)

I've said since the day...I'm against IR altogether. I wish we'd go back to letting humans call the game. Most calls are good. A rare few are bad. They even out at the end of the day. And if they don't....hey, its just grown men playing a game! :D

Roger Perry
10-26-2010, 11:09 AM
I fully admit it was a bad call....several times. Lets not mention the holding calls (one of which was so absent, they wouldn't even show a replay b/c they couldn't find anyone holding)

I've said since the day...I'm against IR altogether. I wish we'd go back to letting humans call the game. Most calls are good. A rare few are bad. They even out at the end of the day. And if they don't....hey, its just grown men playing a game! :D

And it doesn't hurt that 2 officials were from the Pittsburg area. ;)

DAVIE Gene Steratore was not messing around Monday.
When he answered the phone at his Western Pennsylvania-based company, Steratore Sanitary Supply, he demanded that the caller give his full name, address and telephone number.
Some Dolphins fans found further reason for outrage because Bergman is from Pittsburgh and Steratore lives a half-hour from the city.