PDA

View Full Version : Super Sized Pensions



Gerry Clinchy
11-12-2010, 07:05 PM
http://redtape.msnbc.com/2010/11/in-new-york-a-44-year-old-firefighter-retired-with-a-101000-a-year-pension-for-life-near-chicago-a-parks-commissioner-q.html#tp

MSNBC



In New York, a 44-year-old firefighter retires with a $101,000 a year pension, for life. Near Chicago, a parks commissioner quits and begins collecting a $166,000 pension – a sum sweetened by $50,000 thanks to a one-time retirement year windfall of $270,000. And in California, a former city manager pulls down $500,000 in retirement checks every year.




The economic struggles of the past decade lit the fuse for the pension fund time bomb. In 2000, half of the 50 states had enough money socked away to cover future pension costs, according to Pew. By 2008, only four states -- Florida, New York, Washington and Wisconsin -- could make that claim. The other 46 are potentially on the road to insolvency.



Joshua Rauh, associate professor of finance at at Northwestern University, estimates that 20 states will run out of pension money by 2025.

The pension doomsday clocks in Illinois and New Jersey will strike even sooner, in 2018, he said (http://kelloggfinance.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/the-day-of-reckoning-for-state-pension-plans/).




Another common pension abuse is “double-dipping” – a practice in which employees retire and start collecting their pension, then are rehired to perform their old job at their old salary. It’s a common practice for government workers around the country, despite many rules forbidding it. Workers often argue that they have earned their pension and their right to retire, and if they decide to work during retirement, they're entitled. But the logic there is deeply flawed, said Dean.

"Pensions were designed to make sure government workers were allowed to grow old with dignity, not to make them rich," he said.




The outrage, and the actuarial problem
In this series on super-sized government pay, we’ve already met Phoenix police chief/public safety manager Jack Harris, who’s become the nation’s poster child for “double-dipping.” He retired as chief in 2007 and began collecting a $90,000 pension. Two weeks later, he was hired for essentially the same job, retitled “public safety manager,” and granted a salary of $193,000. Harris attracted nationwide attention after a lawsuit was filed by conservative interest group Judicial Watch. The lawsuit claims the public safety manager’s job was manufactured expressly to circumvent both pension rules and a state law aimed at curbing the practice.

Peter Tom is a municipal compensation specialist who’s worked in New Jersey’s complicated government worker environment for three decades. New Jersey even has rules designed to enable double-dippers, he said. Yet, he’s seen all manner of pension-stuffing through the years.

“This would not be allowed in the private sector because pension committees are third party administrators who have fiduciary responsibilities,” Tom said.

While the outrage factor on six-figure pensions and lucrative loopholes is high, Tom also points to a more practical, actuarial problem: Pension recipients aren’t paying their fair share, creating unfunded liabilities. For example, he said, a worker who pays 5 percent of a $10,000 salary into the system for 24 years, then 5 percent of a $140,000 salary for one year, doesn’t cover the costs of a $70,000 pension.

"These loopholes create unfunded liabilities that have helped damage the pension pool.”," he said. "Pensioners are never asked to make up the difference.”




Dean’s website maintains a $100,000 club roster, listing pensioners who enjoy six-figure annual payouts. But life expectancy is forcing him to consider new list: the $1 million club, for retirees who will collect seven-figure pensions during their lifetime.

”We have a police chief who will pull in $5 million in California (before he dies),” he said.



But in the end, pensions are about power. Elected officials from local and state governments maintain power by doling out favors and perks, and there is no perk like a pension.

Next week, Tom will be our guide as we delve more deeply into particularly egregious forms of pension loopholes, such as a county sheriff who retired in 1999 but still holds his six-figure-salaried office, the judge with 11 state jobs and the convicted mayor with the $125,000 pension and multiple other sources of state income.


Just cut and paste ... but the article speaks for itself, I think.

YardleyLabs
11-12-2010, 08:03 PM
The politics of pensions, particularly for teachers and uniformed forces, has always been crazy. When dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was working in the budget office in NYC, our pension costs for these groups averaged more than 45% of compensation and the real number should have been higher. The pensions were never part of the negotiated collective bargaining agreements and they were not set by the City. Instead, the pensions were set by a Republican controlled legislature over the opposition of the City which was forced to pay the bill with no state assistance.

Almost none of the teachers or uniformed workers actually lived in the City. They lived in the surrounding suburban counties. Those legislators allied with upstate legislators to impose pension agreements on the City that were far in excess of what was allowed anywhere else in the state. It was not unusual for uniformed forces to begin working with the City following high school, work for 25 years, and retire with a net annual paycheck exceeding the average of their final three years of employment. The actual calculation was based on the final year of pay including overtime, and those in their last year were given lots and lots of overtime. in addition to lifetime medical benefits. The average retiree was under 50. We had good people in thise jobs, but not that good.;-)

Uncle Bill
11-13-2010, 11:18 AM
Your omniscience has no boundries.OF COURSE it was a REPUBLICAN legislature controlling NEW YORK STATE.

"Instead, the pensions were set by a Republican controlled legislature over the opposition of the City which was forced to pay the bill with no state assistance."

About the only shred of believability in this post would be that the elephants were in control during the dinosauer era.

But beyond that, just read what you are wanting us to believe. You are railing against BIG government setting up unfunded mandates, and in the current era, you are supporting Obamacare.

And you wonder why you come across hypocritical! Is there no end to your wishy-washy belief values?

Just like Obama, eventually your ilk will come to realize you are just the epitome of the snake oil salesman, and they will become bored with your flowery prose, and recognize it as just another attempt to baffle them with your bullcrap.

UB

YardleyLabs
11-13-2010, 11:59 AM
Your omniscience has no boundries.OF COURSE it was a REPUBLICAN legislature controlling NEW YORK STATE.

"Instead, the pensions were set by a Republican controlled legislature over the opposition of the City which was forced to pay the bill with no state assistance."

About the only shred of believability in this post would be that the elephants were in control during the dinosauer era.

But beyond that, just read what you are wanting us to believe. You are railing against BIG government setting up unfunded mandates, and in the current era, you are supporting Obamacare.

And you wonder why you come across hypocritical! Is there no end to your wishy-washy belief values?

Just like Obama, eventually your ilk will come to realize you are just the epitome of the snake oil salesman, and they will become bored with your flowery prose, and recognize it as just another attempt to baffle them with your bullcrap.

UB
The fact that the legislature was controlled by Republicans at that time was a statement of fact, not ideology, and it had a lot to do with why those actions were taken. At that time, NYC generated almost 80% of all state tax revenues and was a net subsidizer of the upstate regions. At least with Obamacare, the taxes and spending cuts needed to finance the program were made part of the bill.

It seems you prefer the Republican approach of cutting taxes, increasing spending and borrowing the difference. That was the policy under Reagan and the policy under the younger Bush. The older Bush rejected that approach, made an effort to actually pay our bills, and was rejected by his own party as a result.

I actually have no issue with spending cuts. My brief career in government was as part of the team that helped bring NYC out of bankruptcy. I directed thousands of layoffs, and did a large number of them face to face. I closed hospitals and met directly with the communities and workers affected. It is not pretty, it is not fun, and it has massive, life changing effects on everyone involved. Unfortunately, sometimes it is needed.

However, the purveyors of bullcrap are those who pretend that there is somehow a free lunch and that all problems can be fixed without pain if only the unworthy are thrown off the free ride. The reality is that there will be lots of pain, and the primary job losses will be in the private sector and the military, because that is where most government money goes today.

I believe that the government should not do anything that expands our deficit further, including over turning the Bush tax increases next year (remember, he was the one that demanded those increases), unless the full cost is paid simultaneously with spending cuts. No more cutting taxes now and complaining about spending later. That is how we got here to begin with.

Tim Thomas
11-13-2010, 12:44 PM
All this crap sets a tone that is not the standard Country wide. Certainly there may be pockets of departments that resemble the suggestion, but these type of extravagant #'s are not the rule. As an example, I work for Houston Fire Department whose pension is currently 95% funded and extremely sound. After 35 years (4 more until retirement) as an officer, I'll leave with @$5500 a month pension. That’s after putting 8+ % in for my entire career. If anyone thinks this is extreme for the time spent and job done, you're delusional....not to mention the average lifespan of a firefighter is 58 (last I heard).
Also, the issues of pensions and benefits are typically voted in and supported by the Dem's....I should know, our Dept. always encourages us to vote that way....crazy!

Uncle Bill
11-13-2010, 01:01 PM
"and the primary job losses will be in the private sector and the military, because that is where most government money goes today"

Really??? The governmental unions are void from any responsibility in all this indebtedness? The pension programs of all the political yahoos don't have any responsibility?

It's sad for me that I won't be around here long enough to gloat after you Soros/Obama apologists have run this nation into the ground. But I am hoping to hold out for the elimination of your pathetic man-child from the POTUS. By whom you ask? Any conservative with a heartbeat would do better than what you enablers have allowed to run the country.

The next two years will be quite a barometer of things to come. If you are blind to the facts that the tax cutting WAS the reason for the high employment, which brought in far more tax money than a tax hike ever would, then for your sake, I hope all the idiots in congress continue along the path of high taxes, that will send the country into a complete depression, and will doom the entire Democrat party to what your simple-minded liberals in the press were contemplating was about to happen to the Republicans a couple years ago.

Why would any business want to hire on lots of employees with the cloud of impossible costs for all those government mandates staring them in the face? How stupid must the believers in this Obama idea that $250,000 is the benchmark over which draconian taxes will be levied, and those companys will bend over and grab their ankles? Are you all nuts???

Since I'm not part of that equation anymore, I hope you succeed. Then, like so many voters in this recent election realized, they had been sold a bill of goods with zero value. Only after you have shot down every chance for a recovery, will you begin to see the folly of your ignorance. At that time, I hope there are enough real Americans still standing that will force all the liberal/socialists to eat crow, or move in with Reid and Pelosi. That part of the USA is beyond redemption.

UB

helencalif
11-13-2010, 01:11 PM
"Double Dipping". About 12 years ago an acquaintance of mine took early retirement and "retired" from the sheriff's department with a pension.

Within a week, he was back working as a vacation or sick-time fill in at the county jail being paid at the same salary level.

Helen

Tim Thomas
11-13-2010, 01:43 PM
Quote:
Another common pension abuse is “double-dipping” – a practice in which employees retire and start collecting their pension, then are rehired to perform their old job at their old salary. It’s a common practice for government workers around the country, despite many rules forbidding it. Workers often argue that they have earned their pension and their right to retire, and if they decide to work during retirement, they're entitled. But the logic there is deeply flawed, said Dean.

"Pensions were designed to make sure government workers were allowed to grow old with dignity, not to make them rich," he said.


This is just another example of twisting the truth....the fact is, when one enters this type of deferred retirement program they no longer increase their % of salary determining the monthly pension check.....(their pension check amount ceases to increase, with the exception of cola's) The city also no longer deposits their contribution into the fund. In reality the city gets (in my case) the expertise from an employee necessary to train/guide younger employees in what are typically dangerous circumstances while not incurring the contribution costs. This reduces the number of employees cities must contribute for to the fund. The negative to this is two fold...one issue pertaining to our department, typically the firefighter attempts to remain longer than they normally would, alot of the time not living to enjoy his/her efforts. The other (not a problem with Houston) is pensions underfunded needing bailouts from the city.

Tim Thomas
11-13-2010, 01:52 PM
"Double Dipping". About 12 years ago an acquaintance of mine took early retirement and "retired" from the sheriff's department with a pension.

Within a week, he was back working as a vacation or sick-time fill in at the county jail being paid at the same salary level.

Helen

There are loads of instances where one retires from one job and goes to work for someone else....what you're leaving out is I'd bet (as with my circumstances) he no longer increases his pension nor can he start another with his department. Your suggestion would seem to be that anyone that retires from a career should go sit on a porch or load up a travel trailer and cease to contribute to the workforce. I don't know about your circumstances, but what I've seen from this generations work ethic...quoting Jack Nicholson, " you need me on that wall ".

dnf777
11-13-2010, 04:10 PM
The Pittsburgh Post Gazette ran an expose (don't know how to put the accent over the e) on abuse of pensions. Pittsburgh, like many cities, is facing a looming pension crisis, with no real solution in sight.

The article showed how Port Authority (the bus service) employees would preferentially give extra routes and overtime to drivers in their last year of employment, to boost their salary, and hence, their pension calculations. Several retired with pensions greater than any annual salary they ever earned, excepting for that last year. They were well into 100,000+ range.

Unfortunately, you can't take away ex post facto, so all we can hope to do is curtail this behavior in the future. The ones who got away with it, are still getting away.

BTW, Jeff, you're sounding like a fiscally responsible conservative, with that cut-tax and spend liberal, UB arguing your budget actions, wanting to drive up deficits more and more just like his heroes, Reagan and Bush II.

zeus3925
11-18-2010, 08:33 AM
Some egregious cases have been cited above. But, there is a temptation is to extend the "sin" to all retired government workers, which is not the case.

In most cases, government employees have nothing to say about their pensions. In many cases the policies are set by the pols or a board. In fact, pension funds are frequently raided and/or under funded to cover budget short falls, leaving the pensions in dire straits. I was president of two union locals in two different states. The pensions were not negotiable by law.

In both states, the pension rates were 1.5% of the an average salary per year served-- the average salary being computed on the five highest years. I also worked in private industry. My spouse worked for several major corporations. The computation of retirement benefits, private and public, were essentially the same.

YardleyLabs
11-18-2010, 11:25 AM
Some egregious cases have been cited above. But, there is a temptation is to extend the "sin" to all retired government workers, which is not the case.

In most cases, government employees have nothing to say about their pensions. In many cases the policies are set by the pols or a board. In fact, pension funds are frequently raided and/or under funded to cover budget short falls, leaving the pensions in dire straits. I was president of two union locals in two different states. The pensions were not negotiable by law.

In both states, the pension rates were 1.5% of the an average salary per year served-- the average salary being computed on the five highest years. I also worked in private industry. My spouse worked for several major corporations. The computation of retirement benefits, private and public, were essentially the same.
The difference is that almost all private companies began eliminating defined benefit plans 20 years ago and fewer and fewer people have them each year. However, they have remained the norm in the public sector even as public sector salaries, excluding benefits, have become increasingly competitive with the private sector.

pat addis
11-20-2010, 06:41 AM
i didn't work in gov. long about 9 yrs.i was a mechanic and get 500 per mo not a lot but it helps.i have back problems from many years of heavy work. most that retire get more but they were there 30 yrs or more

Marvin S
11-22-2010, 05:55 PM
All this crap sets a tone that is not the standard Country wide. Certainly there may be pockets of departments that resemble the suggestion, but these type of extravagant #'s are not the rule. As an example, I am employed by the Houston Fire Department whose pension is currently 95% funded and extremely sound. After 35 years (4 more until retirement) as an officer, I'll leave with @$5500 a month pension. That’s after putting 8+ % in for my entire career. If anyone thinks this is extreme for the time spent and job done, you're delusional....not to mention the average lifespan of a firefighter is 58 (last I heard).
Also, the issues of pensions and benefits are typically voted in and supported by the Dem's....I should know, our Dept. always encourages us to vote that way....crazy!

It sounds fairly extravagant to me !!!!!!!!!!!


Quote:
Another common pension abuse is “double-dipping” – a practice in which employees retire and start collecting their pension, then are rehired to perform their old job at their old salary. It’s a common practice for government employees around the country, despite many rules forbidding it. Employees often argue that they have earned their pension and their right to retire, and if they decide to work during retirement, they're entitled. But the logic there is deeply flawed, said Dean.

"Pensions were designed to make sure government employees were allowed to grow old with dignity, not to make them rich," he said.


This is just another example of twisting the truth....the fact is, when one enters this type of deferred retirement program they no longer increase their % of salary determining the monthly pension check.....(their pension check amount ceases to increase, with the exception of cola's) The city also no longer deposits their contribution into the fund. In reality the city gets (in my case) the expertise from an employee necessary to train/guide younger employees in what are typically dangerous circumstances while not incurring the contribution costs. This reduces the number of employees cities must contribute for to the fund. The negative to this is two fold...one issue pertaining to our department, typically the firefighter attempts to remain longer than they normally would, alot of the time not living to enjoy his/her efforts. The other (not a problem with Houston) is pensions underfunded needing bailouts from the city.

Fixed it for ya :) .


Some egregious cases have been cited above. But, there is a temptation is to extend the "sin" to all retired government workers, which is not the case.

In most cases, government employees have nothing to say about their pensions. In many cases the policies are set by the pols or a board. In fact, pension funds are frequently raided and/or under funded to cover budget short falls, leaving the pensions in dire straits. I was president of two union locals in two different states. The pensions were not negotiable by law.

In both states, the pension rates were 1.5% of the an average salary per year served-- the average salary being computed on the five highest years. I also worked in private industry. My spouse worked for several major corporations. The computation of retirement benefits, private and public, were essentially the same.

You could have knocked me over with a feather when you posted that!!!!!!!! Your knowledge of the private sector is either lacking or you are cherry picking to prove your point.

Tim Thomas
11-23-2010, 02:46 AM
It sounds fairly extravagant to me !!!!!!!!!!!

What exactly sounds extravagant.....The couple of private sector examples I'll offer is my father and ex-wife. My father retired after 29 years from a large gas co. with close to 70% of his salary upon retirement...this after putting away less a month than my current withdrawal. My ex-wife working for a large oil co. has put away an equivalent amount with her 401k....the withdrawal and matching amounts basically the same.

Fixed it for ya :) .

What you fixed was actually the MSNBC quote from the OP. I'm sure MSNBC appreciates it. ;-)



You could have knocked me over with a feather when you posted that!!!!!!!! Your knowledge of the private sector is either lacking or you are cherry picking to prove your point.

As far as my point, the examples up to when I posted were what I would call extravagant numbers. A firefighter retiring at 44 with 100k a year is extravagant. An officer in the Houston Fire Department retiring after 36 years with 66k a year before taxes and before the $750+ (and rising) for insurance is not....in fact, % wise, my father did better on less time while putting away less. Go figure! All in all, I wouldn't trade it for the world! I've appreciated the opportunity to serve and will forever cherish the group of men and women I've worked along side all these years. The problem with the extravagant examples is that it's not the norm.....most guys retire with pensions no where near these #'s. Personally, I believe the rhetoric is isolated examples given headlines by politicians drumming up support to go after pension funds. As I stated earlier, there are funds that are underfunded, mainly from being sucked dry by those drawing enormous $$.

zeus3925
11-23-2010, 06:31 AM
You could have knocked me over with a feather when you posted that!!!!!!!! Your knowledge of the private sector is either lacking or you are cherry picking to prove your point.

Marv, you better get to know my background better and who I am before you go on a rant. You think all retired public employees are ripping you off. It is you that needs to go back to school.

In case you want to know, I get a grand sum of $1900/ mo, before taxes, based on 30 years of service, most of that was in protection of children and vulnerable adults. Some of that came out of my pocket as an involuntary contribution. During that 30 years, pulled kids out of incredible dangers and houses filled with indescribable filth. I have had guns pointed at me, butchers knives thrown at me and had numerous threats of violence from people that beat their kids and throw their blind mothers down flights of stairs. I've been called by every name that is unfamiliar to the clergy. Frankly, Marv, I am not going to apologize for a single damn penny of what I get.

Gerry Clinchy
11-28-2010, 11:35 AM
Much as I respect the danger and devotion of policemen and firemen, they are also a group of people that can have their bad apples.

A few years ago, one of our local cities accepted a pension plan for police that would base retirement income on their last year of service. Some whose retirement was imminent realized how to tweek the game. There is an annual tourist event that requires overtime for police. The near-retirement police volunteered for this substantial overtime. Early in the next year many then took their retirement at much, much more than their "regular" annual salary ever was ... as they had inflated their last year with enormous amounts of overtime. We're talking numbers like $90,000/year.

It was all perfectly legal, so I fault the city jerks who were dumb enough to approve the negotiation that led to this system without provisions for preventing abuse.

Marvin S
11-28-2010, 10:47 PM
is An officer in the Houston Fire Department retiring after 36 years with 66k a year before taxes and before the $750+ (and rising) for insurance is not.....

You keep telling yourself that! You forgot to add the opportunity to participate in a 403B, SS + the widow benefits that go to all without a nickel of contribution. All in All, a very generous package. BTW, what you talk about is what someone in the private sector would do along with their real job.


In case you want to know, I get a grand sum of $1900/ mo, before taxes, based on 30 years of service, most of that was in protection of children and vulnerable adults. Some of that came out of my pocket as an involuntary contribution. During that 30 years, pulled kids out of incredible dangers and houses filled with indescribable filth. I have had guns pointed at me, butchers knives thrown at me and had numerous threats of violence from people that beat their kids and throw their blind mothers down flights of stairs. I've been called by every name that is unfamiliar to the clergy. Frankly, Marv, I am not going to apologize for a single damn penny of what I get.

If you want to convince yourself, go ahead, I've heard the same pitch from just about every venue on the public teat. If the problem is/was so bad, why didn't you fix it?

But we recently had an election in our leftist state, results were mixed, but in the Whatcom County part there was a contest for State Representative between someone from the private sector & the chief architect of last years failed budget & I'll quote you an exchange from the Bellingham Herald website:


This is the same guy who pointed to a room full of social workers & angrily asked us "what have you done for the community". Of course, he asked us this after he went off about how he travels to ANOTHER COUNTRY to dig wells. Shame on you Mr. Conservative Republican candidate. Most of us don't stop working at 5:00 PM, we take our work home with us. We do more in a year than he will do in a lifetime. What has Mr Conservative Republican candidate done for Whatcom County? Nothing, unless you consider being a well to do white Christian family consisting Mom, Dad & two kids.

Birdfeeder responded about 45 minutes later with this:


Did you respond to the candidate by saying you fed from the public trough, felt benevolent & indignant because liberals have been in power in Olympia for a long time, see him as a threat to your gravy train, & look forward to taxes raising because that means a pay raise for you? Did you tell him how you recognized how many hours per day & days per week a contractor has to work in order to be successful, all without begging for more & higher taxes to support his career? Did you tell him how much you resent average Americans that come from stable homes? Did you tell him you were a single mother who embraces an alternate lifestyle?

Of course you didn't. You expected tolerance & acceptance of your diversity without affording him the respect you should offer a successful individual businessman from a stable decent home with traditional ethics & values. Instead you verbally attacked him & became more indignant when he responded with equal enthusiasm. Face it Cupcake, your gravy train is about to become derailed & it really pizzes you off.

Before you go off again you might consider this - there is little that I haven't experienced in life, from being very poor & unwanted to choosing where I would put my experience to work. The trip on the turnip truck has been long & eventful. One thing I figured out, on my own, was that too many guarantees lead to sloth. I am no fan of unions, as I believe their bureaucracy is probably more crooked than any politico that comes down the pike. But enjoy your SEIU friends, at least we know where you're coming from :o.

Tim Thomas
11-28-2010, 11:37 PM
You keep telling yourself that! You forgot to add the opportunity to participate in a 403B, SS + the widow benefits that go to all without a nickel of contribution. All in All, a very generous package. BTW, what you talk about is what someone in the private sector would do along with their real job.

Thanks Marv, I will....BTW, the deferred comp you mentioned is an option for those that want to put away more. Myself, I didn't get much of a chance. I didn't have the extra income to allow for increased investments.....instead, I put away the $$ to put my son through college and afford my wife staying home. As far as SS...we (HFD) don't contribute, so I won't be benefitting from that program. As I said earlier, not all Firefighters, Police Officers, or Teachers fit into the mold you and others have forged. In fact, you are a prime example of the problem with this notion....the idea that all those serving in the public sector are getting rich.....if you only knew.

Chris Miller
11-28-2010, 11:40 PM
You keep telling yourself that! You forgot to add the opportunity to participate in a 403B, SS + the widow benefits that go to all without a nickel of contribution. All in All, a very generous package. BTW, what you talk about is what someone in the private sector would do along with their real job.


In California while working in public sector you don't pay into SS and you don't receive SS benefits when we retire. Even it you work in the private sector for 20+ and have 20yrs in the public sector you do not receive the total SS benefits that you would have they are reduced significantly. Yes we can contribute OUR money to a 401k of 457 just like you can but our employers do not match the contribution.

Tim Thomas
11-29-2010, 12:26 AM
Before you go off again you might consider this - there is little that I haven't experienced in life, from being very poor & unwanted to choosing where I would put my experience to work. The trip on the turnip truck has been long & eventful. One thing I figured out, on my own, was that too many guarantees lead to sloth. I am no fan of unions, as I believe their bureaucracy is probably more crooked than any politico that comes down the pike. But enjoy your SEIU friends, at least we know where you're coming from :o.

Another example of your limited knowledge or effort to research a little before typing. We are not a true union...actually, we're an association. We can't strike, have sick outs, or manipulate the city for any benefit we would prefer. We can meet at the table to discuss our desires for inclusions in the contract. Rest assured, these negotiations mainly include maintaining safety issues provided by manpower and trying to keep our insurance from going through the roof. Just a little history for you Marv, we didn't receive a pay increase for 10 years from '82 - '92. This while the private sector was getting their usual bumps. I certainly don't harbor any bad feelings for those that were receiving their increases....that was simply a bad time for us...mainly due to the cities leadership at the time. With that said, if you'd like you're welcome to hop on your turnip truck and head down south to ride along with me and experience my "real job".:-P

Marvin S
11-29-2010, 04:55 PM
Thanks Marv, I will....BTW, the deferred comp you mentioned is an option for those that want to put away more. Myself, I didn't get much of a chance. I didn't have the extra income to allow for increased investments.....instead, I put away the $$ to put my son through college and afford my wife staying home. As far as SS...we (HFD) don't contribute, so I won't be benefitting from that program. As I said earlier, not all Firefighters, Police Officers, or Teachers fit into the mold you and others have forged. In fact, you are a prime example of the problem with this notion....the idea that all those serving in the public sector are getting rich.....if you only knew.

Woe is me - I just didn't have the money - had to help Jr get a college Education - for your info 3 of my 4 sons graduated from college & own their own businesses, All on their own dime, as did I. Wasn't that hard & prepared them for real life where they get to deal with those feasting on the public teat.


In California while working in public sector you don't pay into SS and you don't receive SS benefits when we retire. Even it you work in the private sector for 20+ and have 20yrs in the public sector you do not receive the total SS benefits that you would have they are reduced significantly. Yes we can contribute OUR money to a 401k of 457 just like you can but our employers do not match the contribution.

Soooooooo - neither of you get the benefit of the worlds greatest Ponzi scheme known as SS, where you & your employer are legally obligated to put 15.3% of your income into a general pot for the government to mismanage? Makes Tim's measly 8% for a Generous pension look like a great return. That's really too bad that neither of you have 1st hand knowledge of how that program operates :(. Don't believe a 401K is such a big deal, unless you have control over fund allocation with good choices it also is a money loser.

But did manage to put the maximum required into SS for 33 years & have my writeoff years taken by being a paperboy & all the other jobs I held before reaching maximum earning capacity.


Another example of your limited knowledge or effort to research a little before typing. We are not a true union...actually, we're an association. We can't strike, have sick outs, or manipulate the city for any benefit we would prefer. We can meet at the table to discuss our desires for inclusions in the contract. Rest assured, these negotiations mainly include maintaining safety issues provided by manpower and trying to keep our insurance from going through the roof. Just a little history for you Marv, we didn't receive a pay increase for 10 years from '82 - '92. This while the private sector was getting their usual LUMPS. I certainly don't harbor any bad feelings for those that were receiving their increases....that was simply a bad time for us...mainly due to the cities leadership at the time. With that said, if you'd like you're welcome to hop on your turnip truck and head down south to ride along with me and experience my "real job".:-P

So you're saying there is no binding arbitration? But I am familiar with guilds, associations, etc which are all Unions by a different name. Like Sarge I have done more than my share of negotiating, understand compounding of expenses & the like, but unlike Sarge my goal was protecting the taxpayer.

Don't believe the 82-92 years were all that great - at the big kite factory we had to layoff some very talented engineers due to lack of work, again a concept you would not understand ;-).

Tim Thomas
11-29-2010, 06:38 PM
Woe is me - I just didn't have the money - had to help Jr get a college Education - for your info 3 of my 4 sons graduated from college & own their own businesses, All on their own dime, as did I. Wasn't that hard & prepared them for real life where they get to deal with those feasting on the public teat.



Soooooooo - neither of you get the benefit of the worlds greatest Ponzi scheme known as SS, where you & your employer are legally obligated to put 15.3% of your income into a general pot for the government to mismanage? Makes Tim's measly 8% for a Generous pension look like a great return. That's really too bad that neither of you have 1st hand knowledge of how that program operates :(. Don't believe a 401K is such a big deal, unless you have control over fund allocation with good choices it also is a money loser.

But did manage to put the maximum required into SS for 33 years & have my writeoff years taken by being a paperboy & all the other jobs I held before reaching maximum earning capacity.



So you're saying there is no binding arbitration? But I am familiar with guilds, associations, etc which are all Unions by a different name. Like Sarge I have done more than my share of negotiating, understand compounding of expenses & the like, but unlike Sarge my goal was protecting the taxpayer.

Don't believe the 82-92 years were all that great - at the big kite factory we had to layoff some very talented engineers due to lack of work, again a concept you would not understand ;-).

Nope, no binding arbitration...and when did I say "woe is me"?....you goober! Sounds like you're the one wanting all the acknowledgement....perhaps you spent just a little too much time on the teat yourself. Have you not got the coddling you feel you deserve? Well here goes...soak it up you big V!....Sounds like you got everything figured out....gosh, if we could all be like you!!...seeing how myself and the others you've lashed out at as being on the "public teat" have never given anything to society, we should all be indebted to you.....the all knowing that has seen and done it all! Thanks Marv! BTW, my son graduated A&M and went to Medical School and currently runs his own practice....I'm sure it's petty next to The Marv and co.'s accomplishments...also, the offer still stands...anytime you'd like to head down and catch a seat, I'll make sure there's plastic on it for ya!

Chris Miller
11-29-2010, 08:05 PM
Soooooooo - neither of you get the benefit of the worlds greatest Ponzi scheme known as SS, where you & your employer are legally obligated to put 15.3% of your income into a general pot for the government to mismanage? Makes Tim's measly 8% for a Generous pension look like a great return. That's really too bad that neither of you have 1st hand knowledge of how that program operates :(. Don't believe a 401K is such a big deal, unless you have control over fund allocation with good choices it also is a money loser.



Nope I guess that leave you as the true socialist.

Chris Miller
11-29-2010, 08:10 PM
Don't believe the 82-92 years were all that great - at the big kite factory we had to layoff some very talented engineers due to lack of work, again a concept you would not understand .



So I guess your pension from the "Kite factory" was paid for fully by you? And the Union never represented you or your co-workers?

People in Glass Houses regards,

Buzz
11-29-2010, 08:34 PM
So I guess your pension from the "Kite factory" was paid for fully by you? And the Union never represented you or your co-workers?

People in Glass Houses regards,

I did not realize that engineering was a profession that had union representation.

Marvin S
11-29-2010, 08:52 PM
I did not realize that engineering was a profession that had union representation.

SPEEA - Seattle Professional Engineering Employees Association which was just that until others, not engineers, were allowed to join the ranks. A concept that I voted against, which though close, passed.

The engineers were fairly passive negotiators, they had their responsibilities which were quite fulfilling & the company took very good care of them under Bill Allen. Being a Lead Engineer in that climate of excellence was in itself a reward. As you are aware, they seem to have an issue with getting anything done in a timely manner today & have had for several years.

It was not until TA Wilson, founder of SPEEA & a fellow engineer became Chairman that engineers began to get the shaft. This culminated in the longest strike in US history of white collar employees a few years back. It is a union today with the same name, just not what it was when I was there. Mostly run by the lightly educated :(.

Marvin S
11-29-2010, 08:57 PM
So I guess your pension from the "Kite factory" was paid for fully by you? And the Union never represented you or your co-workers?

People in Glass Houses regards,

Rest assured that if those on the public teat had to deal with "for profit" negotiators there would be few fiscal problems in state & local government :cool:.

Chris Miller
11-29-2010, 09:19 PM
Rest assured that if those on the public teat had to deal with "for profit" negotiators there would be few fiscal problems in state & local government :cool:.

I guess that every time a call for service was placed for fire or police a resident was charged we could be for profit. Could you imagine the cost that a single family resident fire would cost the home owner. Or when a heart attack was suffered the family would not call for help because of the possible cost if it was not a true emergency?

Our pensions were negotiated and we didn't receive COLA's for many yrs. One of the reasons we received our current pension was because PERS (Public Employees Retirement System) investment were doing well state, county, and cities were not making contributions. When firefighters negotiate for enhanced retirement benefits other potential benefits or salary enhancements are given up. This is the nature of collective bargaining. The cost to a city or municipality is no higher than if a comparable salary increase were negotiated in place of retirement benefits. Benefits are paid by the retirement system, which is not a government agency, from employee and employer contributions while the employee was working, and from market growth and interest from investment of those contributions. PERS (Public Employees Retirement System) have billions of dollars of assets from emploee and employer contributions. PERS is the single largest investor in the stock market, and their investments have beaten the market even during recent economic downturns. When an employer (a city, county or district) pays "catch up" arrears to the retirement system, it is reported widely in the media because of the short-term spike in cost to a municipality's budget. This occurs when investments return less than actuarial predicted. What is NOT reported is that during economic upswings (most of the past 15 years) employers often paid NOTHING into the retirement system, because investment returns exceeded expectations.

The VAST majority of high pensions ($100,000+) are received by top level management - not ordinary working folks like line firefighters, police officers, nurses or teachers.

Tim Thomas
11-29-2010, 09:56 PM
I guess that every time a call for service was placed for fire or police a resident was charged we could be for profit. Could you imagine the cost that a single family resident fire would cost the home owner. Or when a heart attack was suffered the family would not call for help because of the possible cost if it was not a true emergency?

Our pensions were negotiated and we didn't receive COLA's for many yrs. One of the reasons we received our current pension was because PERS (Public Employees Retirement System) investment were doing well state, county, and cities were not making contributions. When firefighters negotiate for enhanced retirement benefits other potential benefits or salary enhancements are given up. This is the nature of collective bargaining. The cost to a city or municipality is no higher than if a comparable salary increase were negotiated in place of retirement benefits. Benefits are paid by the retirement system, which is not a government agency, from employee and employer contributions while the employee was working, and from market growth and interest from investment of those contributions. PERS (Public Employees Retirement System) have billions of dollars of assets from emploee and employer contributions. PERS is the single largest investor in the stock market, and their investments have beaten the market even during recent economic downturns. When an employer (a city, county or district) pays "catch up" arrears to the retirement system, it is reported widely in the media because of the short-term spike in cost to a municipality's budget. This occurs when investments return less than actuarial predicted. What is NOT reported is that during economic upswings (most of the past 15 years) employers often paid NOTHING into the retirement system, because investment returns exceeded expectations.

The VAST majority of high pensions ($100,000+) are received by top level management - not ordinary working folks like line firefighters, police officers, nurses or teachers.

Well said......BTW Marv, what was the office you ran for? Just curious.

zeus3925
11-29-2010, 10:51 PM
Marv, the people who work for government are not Little Sisters of the Poor. Many of them have highly specialized skills that they should be properly compensated for. Some of those skills are only applicable in government.

My college education was paid for by myself, every dime of it, by working in sculleries and auto plants on the line. I'll make no apologies for that.

I never sought a local presidency in the unions. I did speak out forcefully from time to time on issues and that got me nominated but I did not actively seek those positions. Once in those position I endeavored to represent my members to the best of my ability--that is what I was elected to do. I did so so that we could keep our experienced employees --nobody wants to work with a bunch of newbies that turn over in a year or less.

You imply that since it was government that we did not keep our eye on the bottom line. The goal is to make sure our members are fairly compensated without breaking the budget. When I went into negotiate I know pretty much what we have to work with and I didn't plan to piss off taxpayers by playing "bandit".

Marv, you said,"If the problem is/was so bad, why didn't you fix it??"

It ain't exactly like fixing an airplane. People problems are a little bit like shooting coyotes. You can try to extirpate them all on one day, but sure as the sun rises, there will be more tomorrow. If you ignore them, the problem only gets worse. Victory in human services is one family at a time. I am proud to say, very few of the families I worked with were ever seen in the system again. The taxpayer got what they paid for.

depittydawg
11-29-2010, 11:22 PM
Marv, the people who work for government are not Little Sisters of the Poor. Many of them have highly specialized skills that they should be properly compensated for. Some of those skills are only applicable in government.

My college education was paid for by myself, every dime of it, by working in sculleries and auto plants on the line. I'll make no apologies for that.

I never sought a local presidency in the unions. I did speak out forcefully from time to time on issues and that got me nominated but I did not actively seek those positions. Once in those position I endeavored to represent my members to the best of my ability--that is what I was elected to do. I did so so that we could keep our experienced employees --nobody wants to work with a bunch of newbies that turn over in a year or less.

You imply that since it was government that we did not keep our eye on the bottom line. The goal is to make sure our members are fairly compensated without breaking the budget. When I went into negotiate I know pretty much what we have to work with and I didn't plan to piss off taxpayers by playing "bandit".

Marv, you said,"If the problem is/was so bad, why didn't you fix it??"

It ain't exactly like fixing an airplane. People problems are a little bit like shooting coyotes. You can try to extirpate them all on one day, but sure as the sun rises, there will be more tomorrow. If you ignore them, the problem only gets worse. Victory in human services is one family at a time. I am proud to say, very few of the families I worked with were ever seen in the system again. The taxpayer go what they paid for.

I get annoyed with people who think that there is no such thing as a important work in government. Or that people who work in government are somehow not pulling their share or don't deserve their wages. Many critical jobs are performed everyday by people on government payroll.

And no, they don't deserve any special honors or recognition for it either. The idea that they are "serving" their country any more than any of the rest of us is a farce. They are just people doing their jobs. Some are good at it. Some aren't. No different than private industry. They are compensated by and large about the same as anyone doing similar work in the private sector. In many cases in the past they have taken smaller pay increases to increase benefit packages. People who want to whine and complain because someone else has a better job, better pay, or better benefits are the true sluggards.

david gibson
11-30-2010, 06:56 AM
I get annoyed with people who think that there is no such thing as a important work in government. Or that people who work in government are somehow not pulling their share or don't deserve their wages. Many critical jobs are performed everyday by people on government payroll.

And no, they don't deserve any special honors or recognition for it either. The idea that they are "serving" their country any more than any of the rest of us is a farce. They are just people doing their jobs. Some are good at it. Some aren't. No different than private industry. They are compensated by and large about the same as anyone doing similar work in the private sector. In many cases in the past they have taken smaller pay increases to increase benefit packages. People who want to whine and complain because someone else has a better job, better pay, or better benefits are the true sluggards.

then please explain/spin this:

"Federal employees earn higher average salaries than private-sector workers in more than eight out of 10 occupations, a USA TODAY analysis of federal data finds.
Accountants, nurses, chemists, surveyors, cooks, clerks and janitors are among the wide range of jobs that get paid more on average in the federal government than in the private sector.

Overall, federal workers earned an average salary of $67,691 in 2008 for occupations that exist both in government and the private sector, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. The average pay for the same mix of jobs in the private sector was $60,046 in 2008, the most recent data available."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htm

zeus3925
11-30-2010, 08:15 AM
then please explain/spin this:

"Federal employees earn higher average salaries than private-sector workers in more than eight out of 10 occupations, a USA TODAY analysis of federal data finds.
Accountants, nurses, chemists, surveyors, cooks, clerks and janitors are among the wide range of jobs that get paid more on average in the federal government than in the private sector.

Overall, federal workers earned an average salary of $67,691 in 2008 for occupations that exist both in government and the private sector, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. The average pay for the same mix of jobs in the private sector was $60,046 in 2008, the most recent data available."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htm

Gerry, federal is federal, state is state, local is local. The same does not apply across the board.

In the situation I was faced with, a college educated employee with four years experience and with two dependents, earned so little that they were eligible for subsidized housing. I wasn't interested in getting limousines for anybody, but enough of a wage where there was some dignity for working. Our surveys indicated, that even with our last settlement, where jobs were comparable, our workers were at 80% of the prevailing wage in private industry.

But it isn't a fair world. You can find all kinds of inequities in compensation without much effort. How about those execs that pay themselves 400x of their employees average pay, while they drive their company under or ship American jobs overseas?

Buzz
11-30-2010, 08:38 AM
then please explain/spin this:

"Federal employees earn higher average salaries than private-sector workers in more than eight out of 10 occupations, a USA TODAY analysis of federal data finds.
Accountants, nurses, chemists, surveyors, cooks, clerks and janitors are among the wide range of jobs that get paid more on average in the federal government than in the private sector.

Overall, federal workers earned an average salary of $67,691 in 2008 for occupations that exist both in government and the private sector, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. The average pay for the same mix of jobs in the private sector was $60,046 in 2008, the most recent data available."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htm



For that study to mean anything to me, I'd have to see salary broken down by education level and experience as well as by geographic location. Stating averages doesn't mean squat.

menmon
11-30-2010, 02:33 PM
I'm sick for the rhetoric that is currently out there bashing public employees. We need these employees and most do not earn what they are worth. School teacher, policemen and firemen, couldn't pay their rent if it was not for the unions that have fault for them to get them a livable wage.

If some seem to have it better than you think they deserve, just wait until these republicans get through with things, they will be sucking hind tit again.

See most people don't like seeing others good fortune. What we should be is happy that some of our brethern have received a break. Instead of ragging on the fact that they have stuck together and negotiated a good deal for themselves and family.

My dad was a union boss for the IBEW. He always said that the lineman were the easiest to organize, with wiremen a little harder and instrument men were a pain in the ass. What he was saying is the smarter someone thinks they are the harder it is to get them to agree and work together. I've kept that in mind most of my life and it has proven correct.

david gibson
11-30-2010, 03:02 PM
For that study to mean anything to me, I'd have to see salary broken down by education level and experience as well as by geographic location. Stating averages doesn't mean squat.

thats the spin i expected, and you could have a point. but you have to admit that the ongoing joke for ever is that the government is inept. you know, the old "i am from the government and i am here to help you" cliche. so common sense from that would suggest that if govt. is so inept then the experience/education levels are more likey lower, not higher - or they just perform at a lower level because they can. whatever - anyway, like i said, you could have a point, but my guess is that the education/exp levels are at best a wash.

my question is where are all these jobs that pay so well? all i know is state and EPA jobs in my field pay well below the private sector. there is very little respect for environmental regulators in general....

Uncle Bill
11-30-2010, 03:13 PM
My dad was a union boss for the IBEW. He always said that the lineman were the easiest to organize, with wiremen a little harder and instrument men were a pain in the ass. What he was saying is the smarter someone thinks they are the harder it is to get them to agree and work together. I've kept that in mind most of my life and it has proven correct.




There you go. Keep the ignorant in lock step. It's so much easier to deal with the stupid than those that can think for themselves. That has a known title: "The dumbing down of America." We see it in so many venues today, but the most obvious is in our schools and colleges.

Why do you think the unions and Democrats are in favor of allowing the illegal immigration to overrun this nation? More ignorant voters with their handsout to their providers. Talk about buying votes.

Thanks for telling it like it is, Sambo. It's always encouraging to get the truth from such a sage as the Oracle of IHOP.

UB

road kill
11-30-2010, 03:15 PM
I'm sick for the rhetoric that is currently out there bashing public employees. We need these employees and most do not earn what they are worth. School teacher, policemen and firemen, couldn't pay their rent if it was not for the unions that have fault for them to get them a livable wage.

If some seem to have it better than you think they deserve, just wait until these republicans get through with things, they will be sucking hind tit again.

See most people don't like seeing others good fortune. What we should be is happy that some of our brethern have received a break. Instead of ragging on the fact that they have stuck together and negotiated a good deal for themselves and family.

My dad was a union boss for the IBEW. He always said that the lineman were the easiest to organize, with wiremen a little harder and instrument men were a pain in the ass. What he was saying is the smarter someone thinks they are the harder it is to get them to agree and work together. I've kept that in mind most of my life and it has proven correct.

Why are Federal jobs unionized??
Poor benefits?
Poor working conditions??

VOTING BLOCK???:D


RK

depittydawg
11-30-2010, 09:51 PM
My dad was a union boss for the IBEW. He always said that the lineman were the easiest to organize, with wiremen a little harder and instrument men were a pain in the ass. What he was saying is the smarter someone thinks they are the harder it is to get them to agree and work together. I've kept that in mind most of my life and it has proven correct.

And Republicans always act in sync, get in line, and vote as a bloc. What does that tell you?

Marvin S
11-30-2010, 09:54 PM
I'm sick for the rhetoric that is currently out there bashing public employees. We need these employees and most do not earn what they are worth. School teacher, policemen and firemen, couldn't pay their rent if it was not for the unions that have fault (did you mean FOUGHT)for them to get them a livable wage.

If some seem to have it better than you think they deserve, just wait until these republicans get through with things, they will be sucking hind tit (teat) again.

I'm sure you have studies to back up your statement about not earning what they are worth ;-). Or is that just another of your unsubstantiatied opinions. Apparently your spelling teacher failed :-P!!!!!!!!!!!!

zeus3925
12-01-2010, 07:25 AM
There you go. Keep the ignorant in lock step. It's so much easier to deal with the stupid than those that can think for themselves. That has a known title: "The dumbing down of America." We see it in so many venues today, but the most obvious is in our schools and colleges.

Why do you think the unions and Democrats are in favor of allowing the illegal immigration to overrun this nation? More ignorant voters with their handsout to their providers. Talk about buying votes.

Thanks for telling it like it is, Sambo. It's always encouraging to get the truth from such a sage as the Oracle of IHOP.

UB

If you think unions are in favor of illegal immigrants taking away American jobs, then think again. It is management looking for slave laborers who create the demand for illegal immigration. Management can pay them slave wages for working in the most difficult and dangerous conditions. " If you bitch, Amigo, a phone call to ICE will get you out of here and back on your way home before the sun rises tomorrow".

By the way, Bill, illegal aliens can not vote by law.

menmon
12-01-2010, 08:40 AM
I'm sure you have studies to back up your statement about not earning what they are worth ;-). Or is that just another of your unsubstantiatied opinions. Apparently your spelling teacher failed :-P!!!!!!!!!!!!

She did;-)

menmon
12-01-2010, 08:55 AM
There you go. Keep the ignorant in lock step. It's so much easier to deal with the stupid than those that can think for themselves. That has a known title: "The dumbing down of America." We see it in so many venues today, but the most obvious is in our schools and colleges.

Why do you think the unions and Democrats are in favor of allowing the illegal immigration to overrun this nation? More ignorant voters with their handsout to their providers. Talk about buying votes.

Thanks for telling it like it is, Sambo. It's always encouraging to get the truth from such a sage as the Oracle of IHOP.

UB

No too damn smart to do what is best for them. I don't see the fault in collective bargining for more money, better benifits and even protectionism if you can get it. I would love to be able to monopolize my business, but banker are unorganizable. Must be that smart thing I meantioned.

If I could get us bankers all to agree instead of undermining the pricing of each other, just think how good we would have it. Competition is good for the buyer, but not too good for the seller. I've never had a buyer tell me that they wanted to pay a little more so that I could make a little money.

menmon
12-01-2010, 09:09 AM
Why are Federal jobs unionized??
Poor benefits?
Poor working conditions??

VOTING BLOCK???:D


RK

Federal jobs are unionized because union workers stood together and voted in politians that would pass the legislation need to assure they got those jobs. Kind of like Exxon using it influence to get what they want out of politians.

If the benefits and working conditions are poor, they must not have the leverage they need to get them. Too many unorganized people accepting less.

Voting block the bigger the block of votes the more influence they have.

Now if you don't agree with this strategy, why do you let every major corporation use their power and influence to get what they want out of government?

menmon
12-01-2010, 09:16 AM
There you go. Keep the ignorant in lock step. It's so much easier to deal with the stupid than those that can think for themselves. That has a known title: "The dumbing down of America." We see it in so many venues today, but the most obvious is in our schools and colleges.


UB

Kind of like how the republicans have you in lock step following their drummer boy Glenn Beck!:rolleyes:

Buzz
12-01-2010, 09:21 AM
Kind of like how the republicans have you in lock step following their drummer boy Glenn Beck!:rolleyes:

Or Sara Palin.

road kill
12-01-2010, 09:25 AM
Federal jobs are unionized because union workers stood together and voted in politians that would pass the legislation need to assure they got those jobs. Kind of like Exxon using it influence to get what they want out of politians.

If the benefits and working conditions are poor, they must not have the leverage they need to get them. Too many unorganized people accepting less.

Voting block the bigger the block of votes the more influence they have.

Now if you don't agree with this strategy, why do you let every major corporation use their power and influence to get what they want out of government?

I'm thinkin' they are pretty good!


RK

Marvin S
12-02-2010, 05:11 PM
I'm sick for the rhetoric that is currently out there bashing public employees. We need these employees and most do not earn what they are worth. School teacher, policemen and firemen, ..........


You made this post a couple of days ago - I asked you to back it up with something more substantial than rhetoric. But you haven't responded. What does that tell the participants on this forum?

but I'll give the folks a little meat -

http://www.biaw.com/WAStateEmployeesWages.aspx

In summation: Employees Wages Total Compensation

2005 123,389 $4,916,336,560 $7,501,696,096

2009 141,787 $6,472,270,161 $9,885,181,805

So on a 14.91% increase in employment (mostly unneeded) the state has a 31,65% increase in salaries & a 31.77% increase in bennies. Average salary in 2005 $39,844 or $19.08 per contractual hour, in 2009 $45,648 or $21.86 per contractual hour, again a 14.56% increase.

So in a downturn, our illustrious election stealing governor has managed to increase government employment 14.91% while increasing average salaries 14.56%, a multiplier of 31.64% or 7.1%/year. Any of you lefties wonder why those of us who are fiscally responsible get a little fed up with your inability to cope with reality????????????????

You can bounce around the departments to see just how far down the pecking order you have to go to hit reality :).

I'll talk about the benefits of govenment retirement in a future post ;-).