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menmon
11-18-2010, 11:44 AM
Please try to tell me that this is not the best outcome!

Everything he has done that has had time to run its course in turning around this economy has been successful! And everything he has done has been belittled an undermined by the right spin. This guy has the peoples back, but the republicans with the help of their spin machine has convienced you that he is bad for you.

The fact that the american people are debating quanitative easing speaks volumes of how these spin doctors have brought monetary actions to cable news and spun it as bad and before a month ago most didn't even know what it was.

troy schwab
11-18-2010, 11:57 AM
Yea...... its all good!!!!! ROFL

Ken Bora
11-18-2010, 12:12 PM
...Everything he has done that has had time to run its course in turning around this economy has been successful! And everything he has done has been belittled an undermined by the right spin. This guy has the peoples back........


Who you talkin' 'bout Willis?

Buzz
11-18-2010, 12:24 PM
Anyone here own GM stock yet?

What do you think the odds are that you can make money on it in the next 10 years?

Goose
11-18-2010, 12:33 PM
Who you talkin' 'bout Willis?

Either Ed Whitacre, Ben Bernanke, the Imam Obama or Dan Akerson:)

Blackstone
11-18-2010, 12:50 PM
Internally, we had the opportunity to buy at the IPO price. I bought some, so I'm happy with the price being up. However, I will be keeping my eye on it to ensure I don't lose later.

dnf777
11-18-2010, 12:57 PM
I'm in. Will watch closely though.
For the sake of America and the Americans employed by GM, I hope they succeed.

It looks like at least the short term goals of bailing out the American auto industry and returning GM to self-sufficiency as a public held company have been successful, and played out as well as could be hoped for.

They've been given a life-saving transfusion....we'll see what they do with their second lease on life.

Roger Perry
11-18-2010, 01:05 PM
I'm in. Will watch closely though.
For the sake of America and the Americans employed by GM, I hope they succeed.

It looks like at least the short term goals of bailing out the American auto industry and returning GM to self-sufficiency as a public held company have been successful, and played out as well as could be hoped for.

They've been given a life-saving transfusion....we'll see what they do with their second lease on life.

All the righties here must be really irked that GM is turning itself back into a private company.

Buzz
11-18-2010, 01:10 PM
I got a little too, although I won't be watching it that close.

When I bought Ford stock I watched it really close. Great way to drive yourself nuts! ;-) I feel that a lot of the changes made are going to take time to really pay off.

Eric Johnson
11-18-2010, 02:36 PM
All the righties here must be really irked that GM is turning itself back into a private company.

Let's see....

US public loaned GM about $50 Billion and will get $12 billion back.

UAW loaned GM $0 and will get $4 billion.

I'm not irked that GM is going public. I'm irked that we didn't get our money back.

Eric

Franco
11-18-2010, 02:44 PM
Anyone here own GM stock yet?

What do you think the odds are that you can make money on it in the next 10 years?

With China buying a huge chunck of the stock, I'd sell before reality sets in. How long before the Chinese government owns the majority of stock? Will the Chinesse start opening GM plants in China and closing plants in the USA?

And, what about Ford having to compete against the government?

Buy American now means, buy Ford. As a tax payer, I want my money back from Gooberment Motors!

Buzz
11-18-2010, 03:08 PM
With China buying a huge chunck of the stock, I'd sell before reality sets in. How long before the Chinese government owns the majority of stock? Will the Chinesse start opening GM plants in China and closing plants in the USA?

And, what about Ford having to compete against the government?

Buy American now means, buy Ford. As a tax payer, I want my money back from Gooberment Motors!


What I read was that SAIC Motor, China's largest auto manufacturer bought a little less that 1% of the stock. About $500 million worth.

Do you have any stats on how much F stock is owned by foreigners?

How much of FOX is owned by foreigners. Doesn't stop wingers from watching...

Franco
11-18-2010, 03:25 PM
What I read was that SAIC Motor, China's largest auto manufacturer bought a little less that 1% of the stock. About $500 million worth.

Do you have any stats on how much F stock is owned by foreigners?

How much of FOX is owned by foreigners. Doesn't stop wingers from watching...

China owns ZERO percent of Ford Preferred Stock. No one knows how much Common Stock is owned because much of it is tied in with Mutual Funds.

Buzz
11-18-2010, 03:32 PM
China owns ZERO percent of Ford Preferred Stock. No one knows how much Common Stock is owned because much of it is tied in with Mutual Funds.

Well, this stock owner hopes that your next vehicle will be a Ford!

Franco
11-18-2010, 03:36 PM
Well, this stock owner hopes that your next vehicle will be a Ford!

Love the Ford F150 I'm driving now but thinking of getting a new Nissen Titan when they come out early next year. Titan is being built in neighboring Mississippi.

But, how unfair to Ford with having to compete against the government on tax payer money we will never see returned to the treasury. This GM IPO will only reduce what they owe tax payers by 49%, if they think they can sell as much of it as projected the debt will be reduced 49%.

With an IPO at $33. I seriously doubt it will get higher but, you can bet it will go down before it ever goes up.

dback
11-18-2010, 04:14 PM
Sure glad I bought Ford stock at the same time I bought GM....Ford makes up for the GM (Liquidation) crap I have now (21 cents a share). Personally......I'll never own another GM product or share again....neither will the company I own.

menmon
11-18-2010, 04:19 PM
Let's see....

US public loaned GM about $50 Billion and will get $12 billion back.

UAW loaned GM $0 and will get $4 billion.

I'm not irked that GM is going private. I'm irked that we didn't get our money back.

Eric

They are going public not private

menmon
11-18-2010, 04:22 PM
Sure glad I bought Ford stock at the same time I bought GM....Ford makes up for the GM (Liquidation) crap I have now (21 cents a share). Personally......I'll never own another GM product or share again....neither will the company I own.

Is this you in the photo?

menmon
11-18-2010, 04:23 PM
With China buying a huge chunck of the stock, I'd sell before reality sets in. How long before the Chinese government owns the majority of stock? Will the Chinesse start opening GM plants in China and closing plants in the USA?

And, what about Ford having to compete against the government?

Buy American now means, buy Ford. As a tax payer, I want my money back from Gooberment Motors!

Just can't give credit where credit is due.

menmon
11-18-2010, 04:26 PM
Let's see....

US public loaned GM about $50 Billion and will get $12 billion back.

UAW loaned GM $0 and will get $4 billion.

I'm not irked that GM is going private. I'm irked that we didn't get our money back.

Eric

They went public not private! They were private until yesterday.

Buzz
11-18-2010, 04:35 PM
Just can't give credit where credit is due.

Gotta love it!

http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq354/Eclectablog/50cf68b2.jpg

menmon
11-18-2010, 04:42 PM
Gotta love it!

http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq354/Eclectablog/50cf68b2.jpg

It's killing them isn't it! LOL

Franco
11-18-2010, 05:02 PM
Just can't give credit where credit is due.

Credit due for what?

Even if they raise the funds they project to raise, they still owe tax payers over 50%!

menmon
11-18-2010, 05:44 PM
Credit due for what?

Even if they raise the funds they project to raise, they still owe tax payers over 50%!

They have only sold a small percentage to the public. There will be more stock offerings and money to pay back the money the government loan them.

This could have been disasterous for many americans that livelyhood depended on either GM or the companies that support it. If you remember, there was much opposition to doing this and it would have been real easy to have not stepped up and helped these people when they were down, so now that they did and things are working out much better than expected, I think credit is due. One thing we forget is that these companies represent people and their livelyhoods. We all own them through our mutual funds, insurance and pensions. They are really not about any one person when dealing with the massive corporations, so the bailout was to help people, not a company.

As for as paying you back, I'm sure this will all get paid back in time and not that long of time either, but my question to you is when are you going to repay all the money you borrowed to pay for two wars in the middle east? You want paid back for this but I want paid back for your waste, too.

road kill
11-18-2010, 05:53 PM
They have only sold a small percentage to the public. There will be more stock offerings and money to pay back the money the government loan them.

This could have been disasterous for many americans that livelyhood depended on either GM or the companies that support it. If you remember, there was much opposition to doing this and it would have been real easy to have not stepped up and helped these people when they were down, so now that they did and things are working out much better than expected, I think credit is due. One thing we forget is that these companies represent people and their livelyhoods. We all own them through our mutual funds, insurance and pensions. They are really not about any one person when dealing with the massive corporations, so the bailout was to help people, not a company.

As for as paying you back, I'm sure this will all get paid back in time and not that long of time either, but my question to you is when are you going to repay all the money you borrowed to pay for two wars in the middle east? You want paid back for this but I want paid back for your waste, too.

Well, we could start be fulfilling promises and GET OUT NOW!!


Oh....wait....


RK

Buzz
11-18-2010, 05:55 PM
I'll never own another GM product or share again....neither will the company I own.

If you own any mutual funds, you better look into that. Might need to start dumping them.

Franco
11-18-2010, 06:03 PM
They have only sold a small percentage to the public. There will be more stock offerings and money to pay back the money the government loan them.

This could have been disasterous for many americans that livelyhood depended on either GM or the companies that support it. If you remember, there was much opposition to doing this and it would have been real easy to have not stepped up and helped these people when they were down, so now that they did and things are working out much better than expected, I think credit is due. One thing we forget is that these companies represent people and their livelyhoods. We all own them through our mutual funds, insurance and pensions. They are really not about any one person when dealing with the massive corporations, so the bailout was to help people, not a company.

As for as paying you back, I'm sure this will all get paid back in time and not that long of time either, but my question to you is when are you going to repay all the money you borrowed to pay for two wars in the middle east? You want paid back for this but I want paid back for your waste, too.

First, I have never supported two protracted wars and said so on RTF back in 04. Secure the WMD's and get the hell out. Ditto A'stan. Haven't found Bin Laudin, then get the out.

GM should have been allowed to run its natural course. Overpaid workers and bad product is what got them in trouble. A new company would have risen from the ashes. The bailout was payback for the UAW. With the UAW incharge, GM will never turn a profit! And, what about the families that work at Ford having to compete against the government?

It is still a big "if" paying back tax payers.

YardleyLabs
11-18-2010, 06:10 PM
After the IPO, the government will still own a substantial stake in GM (about a third) following the IPO. If the value of shares remains flat, the government would end up losing an amount equivalent to what was given to GM during 2008, before it went bankrupt. If shares go over $50/share before the government sells its remaining stock, the public would end up with a profit on the total transaction. However, given the number of pundits who assumed that the full $50 billion would be lost, things aren't looking too bag. Certainly better than when this was posted three months ago:


I doubt tax payers will ever see much of that 43 billion back.

Investors are not going to buy stock in a company that in controlled by the UAW! That's becase the UAW will only allow Gooberment Motors to make just enough to may be keep them afloat.

Look for the UAW to pressure GM for more and more concessions.

GM may have been better off going kaput so that a solid company would have emerged from the ashes rather than saving a faulty company with all the same problems.

Or how things looked last year at this time (11/17/2009):


Not only did Gooberment Motors lose 1.5 BILLION, the money they are paying back is money the goobs loaned them!

Kind of a shell game to me.

I don't think tax payers will ever see their money back on this one. Not when the UAW and Gooberment running it!
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

menmon
11-18-2010, 06:13 PM
Well, we could start be fulfilling promises and GET OUT NOW!!


Oh....wait....


RK

You want get an aurguement from me on getting out.

But you saw my point, government helps people that are not always me. Detroit could have easily been Houston. I was living in NM when Catrina happened. Those people were saying screw them because they shouldn't build a house below seal level, but that not what you do. You help! That what has made us what we are today. This mess we are in we all put ourselves there so quit looking for someone to blame.

road kill
11-18-2010, 06:15 PM
You want get an aurguement from me on getting out.

But you saw my point, government helps people that are not always me. Detroit could have easily been Houston. I was living in NM when Catrina happened. Those people were saying screw them because they shouldn't build a house below seal level, but that not what you do. You help! That what has made us what we are today. This mess we are in we all put ourselves there so quit looking for someone to blame.

BTW--Anyone else here any rumblings about audit issues making GM stock a bad look right now??



RK

dback
11-18-2010, 06:21 PM
If you own any mutual funds, you better look into that. Might need to start dumping them.

Only the college funds I've bought each of my Grandkids....don't have much control over them.

menmon
11-18-2010, 06:34 PM
First, I have never supported two protracted wars and said so on RTF back in 04. Secure the WMD's and get the hell out. Ditto A'stan. Haven't found Bin Laudin, then get the out.

GM should have been allowed to run its natural course. Overpaid workers and bad product is what got them in trouble. A new company would have risen from the ashes. The bailout was payback for the UAW. With the UAW incharge, GM will never turn a profit! And, what about the families that work at Ford having to compete against the government?

It is still a big "if" paying back tax payers.

Yes a new company would have arisen...but it would not have been american. Last I looked, these UAW guys don't have it so good. The UAW has done no wrong except try to assure the jobs of its members. Last I looked that was their role and why these guys pay them dues. GM management agreed to all everything the union workers got and these workers paided into vebas and pension funds and the fact that the company borrowed against them does not mean that there was unpaid obligation. And because of the union, they didn't get screwed as bad as they would have had there not been union representation.

Don't say the unions ran jobs out of america, because the jobs went to mexico because they would do the work for beans and rice and mexico lost them to china because they will work for only rice.

Buzz
11-18-2010, 06:47 PM
Don't say the unions ran jobs out of america, because the jobs went to mexico because they would do the work for beans and rice and mexico lost them to china because they will work for only rice.


I will NEVER forget a meeting I attended to report on the progress I was making on getting product transferred from a US manufacturing plant down to Guadalajara Mexico. The European CEO of this major global company was laughing about the NAFTA debate that was raging in America at the time. He said, your politicians are either liars or they are stupid when they tell your people that wages will rise here and these people will become your customers.

"For all practical purposes the supply of cheap labor in this world is INFINITE. If wages rise here, our manufacturing will go elsewhere."

Franco
11-18-2010, 07:00 PM
After the IPO, the government will still own a substantial stake in GM (about a third) following the IPO. If the value of shares remains flat, the government would end up losing an amount equivalent to what was given to GM during 2008, before it went bankrupt. If shares go over $50/share before the government sells its remaining stock, the public would end up with a profit on the total transaction. However, given the number of pundits who assumed that the full $50 billion would be lost, things aren't looking too bag. Certainly better than when this was posted three months ago:



Or how things looked last year at this time (11/17/2009):


:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

So, what as changed?

Does anyone really think the UAW with members on the BOD are going to let GM turn a profit much less payback tax payers?

If, and that is a big if, they make any money, the UAW will tighten the noose for more compensation. It is the way unions operate when they are in charge.

Blackstone
11-18-2010, 07:05 PM
First, I have never supported two protracted wars and said so on RTF back in 04. Secure the WMD's and get the hell out. Ditto A'stan. Haven't found Bin Laudin, then get the out.

GM should have been allowed to run its natural course. Overpaid workers and bad product is what got them in trouble. A new company would have risen from the ashes. The bailout was payback for the UAW. With the UAW incharge, GM will never turn a profit! And, what about the families that work at Ford having to compete against the government?

It is still a big "if" paying back tax payers.

Regardless of how you feel about GM, they are posed to begin buying out the Govs. stake in the company. That is a top priority for GM. If the IPO reduces that ownership by 49%, I think that's a pretty good start.

Also, it is ridiculous to think the UAW is "in charge" of GM. They are just another stakeholder. And, even with the UAW ownership, GM has turned a profit the last 3 quarters.

While, I will agree that GM made some bad products in the past, their quality and performance over the last several years has improved dramatically, and is on par with any manufacturer. You might opt to buy Ford of GM, but that doesn't mean you are getting the better product.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/11/chevrolet-beats-ford-in-heavy-duty-pickup-torture-test/1

At this point, GM has disproved all of the predictions you have made for them. I hope they continue to prove you wrong.

Blackstone
11-18-2010, 07:21 PM
So, what as changed?

Does anyone really think the UAW with members on the BOD are going to let GM turn a profit much less payback tax payers?

If, and that is a big if, they make any money, the UAW will tighten the noose for more compensation. It is the way unions operate when they are in charge.

Franco,

The UAW has one (1) person on the board representing their interest. There are 11 other members on the board representing the interests of the other stockholders. So, how much control could the UAW have?

YardleyLabs
11-18-2010, 07:57 PM
So, what as changed?

Does anyone really think the UAW with members on the BOD are going to let GM turn a profit much less payback tax payers?

If, and that is a big if, they make any money, the UAW will tighten the noose for more compensation. It is the way unions operate when they are in charge.
Well, the big difference is that we have already recovered almost half of the total amount paid out for the bailout and have a good chance of recovering another $10 billion plus. That would mean that we recovered all the post bankruptcy costs committed by the present administration ($36 billion total). The funds spent during 2008, prior to bankruptcy, are pretty much gone. However, it is distinctly possible that some of that will be recouped as well. That makes the taxpayer $30 billion better off than you (and the bulk of other conservatives) were estimating, plus the economic benefits of having dodged the total collapse that you and others forecast would happen even with the bailout.

Buzz
11-18-2010, 08:01 PM
Well, the big difference is that we have already recovered almost half of the total amount paid out for the bailout and have a good chance of recovering another $10 billion plus. That would mean that we recovered all the post bankruptcy costs committed by the present administration ($36 billion total). The funds spent during 2008, prior to bankruptcy, are pretty much gone. However, it is distinctly possible that some of that will be recouped as well. That makes the taxpayer $30 billion better off than you (and the bulk of other conservatives) were estimating, plus the economic benefits of having dodged the total collapse that you and others forecast would happen even with the bailout.


You mean actually collecting income taxes from millions still working vs. the billions you'd have to pay out in unemployment, medicaid, and food stamps? ;-)

depittydawg
11-18-2010, 10:31 PM
Anyone here own GM stock yet?

What do you think the odds are that you can make money on it in the next 10 years?

10 years? I'd say pretty good odds.

depittydawg
11-18-2010, 10:39 PM
Please try to tell me that this is not the best outcome!

Everything he has done that has had time to run its course in turning around this economy has been successful! And everything he has done has been belittled an undermined by the right spin. This guy has the peoples back, but the republicans with the help of their spin machine has convienced you that he is bad for you.

The fact that the american people are debating quanitative easing speaks volumes of how these spin doctors have brought monetary actions to cable news and spun it as bad and before a month ago most didn't even know what it was.

Personally I never supported any of the bailouts. Had GM been allowed to fail, along with the big banks, the void would already been filled by better run organizations. No doubt Toyota, Nissan, etc would be building factories in the US had GM went under like they should have.

Franco
11-18-2010, 11:03 PM
You mean actually collecting income taxes from millions still working vs. the billions you'd have to pay out in unemployment, medicaid, and food stamps? ;-)

You mean Obama's payoff to the UAW for thier contributions and support for his campaign? He certainly didn't mind putting thousands off offshore workers out of work. Unlike the UAW workers who would have sat around collecting unemployment, the oil field workers have taken jobs in foreign countries because they aren't a bunch of over paid blood-sucking leaches.;-)

And, that is the difference between the union entitlement mentality and real workers! GM didn't deserve to get bailed out because they have been dumping inferior products on the market for decades!

We all know how great the unions have been for Michigan and other robust economies in California and Illinois.

menmon
11-19-2010, 11:18 AM
Personally I never supported any of the bailouts. Had GM been allowed to fail, along with the big banks, the void would already been filled by better run organizations. No doubt Toyota, Nissan, etc would be building factories in the US had GM went under like they should have.

One thing we are forgetting is these foreign car companies get much ad from their federal governemtnts in tough times. So when there is a risk of losing market share, the governements help.

Buzz
11-19-2010, 12:11 PM
I wonder why Toyota supported the bailout?

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/15/news/companies/overseas_automakers/?postversion=2008121517


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Detroit's Big Three aren't the only automotive companies that want to see the government step in with some much-needed financial help.

Overseas automakers, most notably Toyota Motor, all endorse some form of federal aid to keep General Motors (GM, Fortune 500), Chrysler LLC and possibly Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) out of bankruptcy.

...

This may seem surprising at first, especially considering that much of the opposition to the auto bailout was from senators from Southern states that are home to auto plants operated by Asian auto companies, such as Alabama and South Carolina. But the Asian automakers insist they never lobbied against such help for the Big Three.

...

Collateral damage

The overseas automakers, who between them produce more than 3 million vehicles a year at U.S. plants, all worry their production would be hurt if one of the U.S. automakers went under. That's because a Big Three failure would likely lead to widespread bankruptcies in the auto parts supplier industry.

...

Economic shockwaves

A collapse of one of the Big Three would also probably cause an even more severe hit to the U.S. economy. That would further eat into demand for U.S. auto sales, which hit a 26-year low in November.

"The U.S. economy would be in shambles," Merkle said. "The robust U.S. economy that Toyota and the others depend on would suddenly not be as lucrative."

...

Enter new competition

The final concern for the overseas automakers is a longer-term problem. The failure of a U.S. automaker could open the door for a Chinese or Indian automaker to buy up the assets of the failed company and create a new low-cost competitor in the U.S.

"You could open the door for foreign companies to buy distressed assets at rock-bottom prices," he said. He pointed to India's Tata (TTM) and China's Geely as two automakers in the developing world that are already on record as being interested in expanding into western markets like the United States.

WaterDogRem
11-19-2010, 12:27 PM
I wonder why Toyota supported the bailout?

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/15/news/companies/overseas_automakers/?postversion=2008121517

That's one theory, but we'll never know now.

Marvin S
11-19-2010, 10:54 PM
I :) at the posts on this thread - apparently those who are looking for something to praise in the Obongo regime find this a success. Here's why it's not: Holders of what should have been 1st in line debt obligations were stiffed in favor of more junior stakeholders. When the Rule of Law ceases to be a deterrent this country is one step away from a dictatorship :o. Hopefully the 1st in line stakeholders win their lawsuit :cool:.

But enjoy your temporary euphoria, especially those who got a chunk of the IPO, the stock has more downside potential than upside.