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ducknwork
12-09-2010, 12:17 PM
How would this be handled? I can see some big problems for Christians in the military in the future...

From NPR

Chaplains Worry About Careers If 'Don't Ask' Is Lifted
December 9, 2010

While most military personnel see no problem serving with openly gay comrades, some military chaplains are bristling. Many of the 3,000 chaplains are evangelical and believe repealing the "don't ask, don't tell" policy may affect how they do their jobs.
Ronald Crews, a retired Army colonel and chaplain, works with active chaplains from his evangelical denomination. A few months ago, he began asking military chaplains what they thought about repealing don't ask, don't tell. One response in particular bothered him. The chaplain had just returned from a briefing by a general about the impact of changing the policy and asked if the military would protect him if he asserted that homosexuality is a sin.

"And the response he received from this four-star general was, 'If you cannot accept the changes coming, you have an option: You can resign your commission,' " Crews says.Crews is one of 66 retired chaplains who sent a letter urging President Obama to retain don't ask, don't tell. Active duty chaplains have also complained anonymously. One said in a Pentagon survey that the change creates an "unavoidable conflict" with his ability to preach and teach the Bible. Another asked whether chaplains would be forced to integrate gay soldiers into family ministry.

Daniel Blomberg, an attorney for the conservative legal group Alliance Defense Fund, wonders: What if a soldier confides to a chaplain that he's gay?

"What happens when the chaplain responds according to the dictates of his faith and says that type of behavior -- like other types of sexual sins -- is not in accordance with God's will?" he says.

Blomberg says the proposed rules don't make it clear how the chaplain should handle the situation. But, he says, the chaplain could be open to a charge of discrimination based on sexual orientation.

"And that could be career-ending for a chaplain," he says.

Chaplains won't be able to freely express their faith, he says. "They feel that repealing don't ask, don't tell will put them in the situation where they have to choose between obeying the God they serve and the country they love."

Retired Major Gen. John Altenberg, who was the No. 2 lawyer in the Army, disagrees. He says, for example, if a chaplain were uncomfortable counseling a gay soldier he could ask another chaplain to counsel him.

"They wouldn't be forced to do it," he says.

Dennis Camp, a retired colonel and Army chaplain for 27 years, says the proposed rules clearly protect a chaplain's religious rights. What chaplains can't do, he says, is act like "moral policemen" and openly condemn homosexuality. Would they consider it 'open condemnation' if the chaplain had a sermon that stated that homosexuality is sinful and wrong?The chaplain's job is to serve everyone -- religious or not, gay or straight. Camp says the objections raised by evangelicals are a smoke screen.

"They have made it an issue because they want to fight this thing on moral grounds," he says. "That's not the kind of fight it is. It's a civil rights issue."

But ultimately, even if don't ask, don't tell is repealed, evangelicals say they'll still supply chaplains because so many people in the armed forces come from conservative denominations.

dnf777
12-09-2010, 01:02 PM
How would this be handled? I can see some big problems for Christians in the military in the future...

From NPR

Not at all. Military chaplains are professionals at what they do. They are specifically trained to render spiritual counselling to soldiers of all faiths, in a compassionate, nonjudgemental way.

As we speak, chaplains of Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, Islamic, and other faiths are giving guidance to troops of all the above faiths and more. This is no different.

If a chaplain can't do his job properly, ie he has so much resentment for a group of people or behavior that he or she can't see beyond that, and render guidance as they're charged to do....they should be out of a job.

sandyg
12-09-2010, 01:39 PM
Not at all. Military chaplains are professionals at what they do. They are specifically trained to render spiritual counselling to soldiers of all faiths, in a compassionate, nonjudgemental way.

As we speak, chaplains of Catholic, Jewish, Protestant, Islamic, and other faiths are giving guidance to troops of all the above faiths and more. This is no different.

If a chaplain can't do his job properly, ie he has so much resentment for a group of people or behavior that he or she can't see beyond that, and render guidance as they're charged to do....they should be out of a job.

How the hell do you know what a military chaplain is trained to do? What a Cliff Clavin!!!

dnf777
12-09-2010, 02:03 PM
How the hell do you know what a military chaplain is trained to do? What a Cliff Clavin!!!

Because when I was deployed to JTF-SWA in Saudi Arabia, my roomate for 6 months was a Philipine-Catholic Chaplain, and we spoke often, at length, on all matters spiritual, medical, weather, politics, dogs, or whatever passed the time. I specifically asked him if he felt ackward administering to Jews or others who don't share his faith. He smiled, and said absolutely not. So long as he helps soldiers connect with their spiritual comforts, he's done his job. THAT's how I know what the hell a military chaplain is trained to do, Woody.

sandyg
12-09-2010, 02:24 PM
Because when I was deployed to JTF-SWA in Saudi Arabia, my roomate for 6 months was a Philipine-Catholic Chaplain, and we spoke often, at length, on all matters spiritual, medical, weather, politics, dogs, or whatever passed the time. I specifically asked him if he felt ackward administering to Jews or others who don't share his faith. He smiled, and said absolutely not. So long as he helps soldiers connect with their spiritual comforts, he's done his job. THAT's how I know what the hell a military chaplain is trained to do, Woody.

So you got second hand information (hearsay) and that makes you an expert on military chaplain training? By that logic I'm a law enforcement officer because my Dad is a retired Chicago cop and Korean war veteran!

dnf777
12-09-2010, 02:32 PM
By that logic I'm a law enforcement officer because my Dad is a retired Chicago cop and Korean war veteran!

No, you're just an a$$. But you probably have more knowledge than most about police work if you spoke often with your Dad about his job.

I am very interested in what other people do, and how they see their jobs, and ask frequently about those things. Its amazing what you can hear just by listening.

sandyg
12-09-2010, 03:38 PM
No, you're just an a$$. But you probably have more knowledge than most about police work if you spoke often with your Dad about his job.

I am very interested in what other people do, and how they see their jobs, and ask frequently about those things. Its amazing what you can hear just by listening.

Once again taking the high road...

LMAO!!!

Clay Rogers
12-09-2010, 03:50 PM
Once again taking the high road...

LMAO!!!


Not that Dave needs any help, but I don't think I have ever seen you make a positive post. You are kinda like the republican Roger Perry. People can have knowledge of other careers besides the one they are involved in everyday. And I don't think information coming from a chaplin is second hand info, do you? Since we are talking about chaplins and all.:rolleyes:

dnf777
12-09-2010, 03:51 PM
Once again taking the high road...

LMAO!!!

I just say it as I see it.
Sometimes its rough.

sandyg
12-09-2010, 05:55 PM
Not that Dave needs any help, but I don't think I have ever seen you make a positive post. You are kinda like the republican Roger Perry. People can have knowledge of other careers besides the one they are involved in everyday. And I don't think information coming from a chaplin is second hand info, do you? Since we are talking about chaplins and all.:rolleyes:

Yes. people can have knowledge of other careers. But don't pass yourself off as an expert in it just because you talked to someone about it.

And yes, it is second hand info. The first hand info is if he went to military chaplain training himself. When you state, unequivocally, that "They are specifically trained to render spiritual counselling to soldiers of all faiths, in a compassionate, nonjudgemental way. " then a reasonable person assumes that you have first hand knowledge of the subject.

dnf777
12-09-2010, 06:02 PM
Yes. people can have knowledge of other careers. But don't pass yourself off as an expert in it just because you talked to someone about it.

And yes, it is second hand info. The first hand info is if he went to military chaplain training himself. When you state, unequivocally, that "They are specifically trained to render spiritual counselling to soldiers of all faiths, in a compassionate, nonjudgemental way. " then a reasonable person assumes that you have first hand knowledge of the subject.

Here ya go, Woody.
This is from the official Army Chaplain Corps website.
Is this "first hand" enough for you??


Army Chaplains are expected to observe the distinctive doctrines of their faith while also honoring the right of others to observe their own faith. The Army is a pluralistic environment. Rabbis, Ministers, Imams and Priests serve our Soldiers with conviction and commitment. While serving their own faith groups in the Army, chaplains also ensure and provide the means for others to observe their own faith in accordance with US law and regulations.

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/about.html

subroc
12-09-2010, 06:23 PM
While most military personnel see no problem serving with openly gay comrades,


what data supports this assertion?

sandyg
12-09-2010, 06:25 PM
Here ya go, Woody.
This is from the official Army Chaplain Corps website.
Is this "first hand" enough for you??


Army Chaplains are expected to observe the distinctive doctrines of their faith while also honoring the right of others to observe their own faith. The Army is a pluralistic environment. Rabbis, Ministers, Imams and Priests serve our Soldiers with conviction and commitment. While serving their own faith groups in the Army, chaplains also ensure and provide the means for others to observe their own faith in accordance with US law and regulations.

http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/about.html

You could have avoided all of this nonsense if you didn't make it sound as if you had first hand knowledge of the situation, but of course that would show us that you aren't the know-it-all that you want us to think you are.

And of course this won't be the last word on the subject because you don't let anybody have the last word.

dnf777
12-09-2010, 06:26 PM
You could have avoided all of this nonsense if you didn't make it sound as if you had first hand knowledge of the situation,

A much easier way to avoid all this nonsense is to resume ignoring your childish nit-picking, but it was too easy to slam dunk you this time.

see ya!

YardleyLabs
12-09-2010, 07:34 PM
You could have avoided all of this nonsense if you didn't make it sound as if you had first hand knowledge of the situation, but of course that would show us that you aren't the know-it-all that you want us to think you are.

And of course this won't be the last word on the subject because you don't let anybody have the last word.
Actually, the nonsense would have been avoided if you hadn't chosen to lead with an insult without addressing any of the issues raised. The reality is that the army does not pay chaplains to help them spread their faith. Among other things, that would be un-Constitutional. It pays them to support our troops in a harsh environment. If a minister believes that his beliefs do not allow him to do that job he should resign. If the army doesn't care what religion, if any, a soldier believes, the chaplains have no business trying to convince soldiers that one brand is better. It is their job to minister to all. If the Army doesn't care about the sexual orientation of our soldiers, then chaplains have to be willing to minister to all.

Franco
12-09-2010, 07:47 PM
In my book, the issue is a slamdunk.

If a gay person wants to put thier life on the line to protect my freedom, then I wish them good health!

Wasn't that long ago that African Americans weren't worthy of carrying an M-1 rifle into combat.

Religious politics has no place in the U S Armed Forces!

YardleyLabs
12-09-2010, 07:53 PM
In my book, the issue is a slamdunk.

If a gay person wants to put thier life on the line to protect my freedom, then I wish them good health!

Wasn't that long ago that African Americans weren't worthy of carrying an M-1 rifle into combat.

Religious politics has no place in the U S Armed Forces!
Absolutely

ducknwork
12-09-2010, 11:40 PM
You are kinda like the republican Roger Perry.

Clay, please don't insult Roger that way...It's definitely below the belt...



Did I really just say that?:p

BTW, are you headed to the training day on Sat?

Cody Covey
12-10-2010, 01:40 AM
In my book, the issue is a slamdunk.

If a gay person wants to put thier life on the line to protect my freedom, then I wish them good health!

Wasn't that long ago that African Americans weren't worthy of carrying an M-1 rifle into combat.

Religious politics has no place in the U S Armed Forces!

Did it start as Religious politics though? It was signed in by Clinton after all. I don't really know what to think. The military isn't afforded the same rights as citizens and I think that what is best for the military functioning as a unit is what they should stick with. Now whether that is with or without don't ask don't tell i don't know nor do i really care that is for the pentagon to decide and they are researching it to see the impact it would have on the military readiness and other things. The last thing we need is for some idiot to beat, maim, or kill a gay person after don't ask don't tell is repealed.

Clay Rogers
12-10-2010, 07:46 AM
Clay, please don't insult Roger that way...It's definitely below the belt...



Did I really just say that?:p

BTW, are you headed to the training day on Sat?



Both the guys, long walk on a short pier. Perfect ending.

No, wish I could make it, but my 7 year old son has his first basketball game and I can't miss that. I know it will be a good time though.

dnf777
12-10-2010, 10:05 AM
Both the guys, long walk on a short pier. Perfect ending.

No, wish I could make it, but my 7 year old son has his first basketball game and I can't miss that. I know it will be a good time though.

Aahhhh, the joy of 7 yo basket ball!
I wouldn't miss that for the whole world!! (but I do take a snickers bar) ;-)

In 42 years, I've never for one second, forgot how important it was as a little boy, to look into the crowd and see Mom and Dad there cheering. God Bless good parents!