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Gerry Clinchy
12-18-2010, 08:35 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/18/business/18mortgage.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=a25

There are some things I don't quite understand about this bill.



The bill would grant conditional legal status to illegal immigrant high school graduates if they came to the United States before they were 16 years old, have been here for more than five years and have no criminal records, if they attend college or serve in the military for two years.


I can understand that kids brought here as infants, had no control over that. Their parents had that control; and also the control that kept the kids here as they grew up.

I don't quite understand how it helps the situation of discouraging illegal immigration by granting these kids legal status.

First off, it encourages the illegal parents to remain here long enough for the kids to graduate high school. The parents may, or may not, have paid taxes to help pay for the education the kids have gotten.

So, some of these illegal parents might decide to stay here (rather than return home) in spite of lack of work. Additional burden on social services?

If the kid graduates from HS, might there be another big stink about sending his parents home? Even if one or both of the parents has, along the way, acquired a criminal record?

Which also makes me wonder why, if the kid did have acquire a criminal record, how come he's still here?

Is it customary for non-citizens to serve in our armed forces? When they would be inducted, wouldn't the status of their residency be questioned?

They attend college? On whose dime? Is an illegal resident eligible to receive benefit of a taxpayer-supported institution like a state college? I'm guessing that most such illegal residents wouldn't have the funds to pay for college. Maybe I'm wrong on that.

The best quote of the article was:



On a call organized by the White House on Friday, David Aguilar, the deputy commissioner of Customs and Border Protection (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/c/customs_and_border_protection_bureau/index.html?inline=nyt-org), said that strict eligibility requirements in the bill for young immigrants who are here would dissuade others outside the country from trying coming to the country illegally. Addressing concerns from lawmakers who say they want more border security before voting for the legislation, Mr. Aguilar said, “At no point in history has the border been as secure as it is today.”


Geez! if our borders are more secure today than ever, it must have been hell before! Maybe he's talking about the Canadian border?

Graduating from high school is a "strict" eligibility requirement?

Maybe there is a way to grant permanent status to some of these illegals. I would start with those who originally had valid visas, but over-stayed their visas, for some reason. And further, start with those in that group who are spouses or children of U.S. citizens.

I'd guess that INS seems to be pretty busy just taking care of the backlog of visa applications for legal residency ... much less having to set up a whole new mechanism for validating eligibility for quite possibly hundreds of thousands of illegal residents who came here illegally ... and making the legal applications wait even longer. Oh, maybe we can just create a bunch of new jobs at INS to do this?

dnf777
12-18-2010, 08:59 PM
I'm REALLY naive when it comes to educating illegal aliens.

How do they get enrolled and attend school without being discovered? Or is it that they ARE discovered, and then we just don't do anything about it?

About the only thing I do understand about immigration policy, is that NEITHER party has done Jack-snipe about it in the 30 some years I've been paying attention.

BonMallari
12-19-2010, 03:22 AM
I'm REALLY naive when it comes to educating illegal aliens.

How do they get enrolled and attend school without being discovered? Or is it that they ARE discovered, and then we just don't do anything about it?

About the only thing I do understand about immigration policy, is that NEITHER party has done Jack-snipe about it in the 30 some years I've been paying attention.


I can answer that from personal experience....especially in the State of California....I am a US citizen by birth (even though I was born in Germany),but was born at Fort Stoltsenberg...

anyhow fast forward 40 yrs and I was trying to get a replacement SS card,they were unwilling to issue me a new one because I lacked a FS 240 form which is a consular report of birth...my attorney wondered how I was able to attend school and even get thru college without one...

here is the problem : In California you only have to prove state residency not US citizenship to attend most schools and universities...once the illegals establish residency in the state they are good to go throughout the system

badbullgator
12-19-2010, 07:13 AM
Looks like the dream is turning into a nightmare for obongo and co

dnf777
12-19-2010, 07:28 AM
I'm not against LEGAL immigration per se, but right now, with 10% unemployment, urban sprawl, diminishing training grounds, hunting tracts being turned into planned communities.....why the HELL to we want to invite more people?? This party is full!
This isn't the the days where we had western expansion to fall back on! Our water resources are being tapped to the max in many areas already.

It should take some special talent or skill to gain admission....not just evading border patrol agents for 5 years and not failing out of school.

BrianW
12-19-2010, 08:45 AM
...why the HELL to we want to invite more people?? This party is full!
.
Easy.
from Yahoo News:
Hispanic activists and immigrant advocates had looked to the bill as a down payment on what they had hoped would be broader action by Obama and the current Democrat controlled Congress to give the nation's 10 million to 12 million illegal immigrants a chance at legal status and thus hopefully become "blue voters" in gratitude. (italics mine)

It targeted the most sympathetic of the millions of illegal immigrants ...

Democrats' determination to vote on the bill before year's end reflected the party's efforts to satisfy Hispanic groups whose backing has been critical in recent elections and will be again in 2012. They said they'll try again in the next Congress, despite the increased GOP presence.

"The echo of this vote will be loud and long," said Rep. Luis V. Gutierrez, D-Ill., a key House sponsor of the bill. "We are at the tipping point that will define the political alignment of the Republican and Democratic parties with Latino voters for a generation."

To me it's quite clear, the donkeys are desperate for new voters in light of the recent elephant stampede. Letting the kids simply achieve resident alien status wouldn't fulfill that goal.

dback
12-19-2010, 08:50 AM
I'm REALLY naive when it comes to educating illegal aliens.

How do they get enrolled and attend school without being discovered? Or is it that they ARE discovered, and then we just don't do anything about it?

This issue has been much 'cussed & discussed' in these parts. Three of my kids are teachers and it irritates the crap out of them that the districts (Federal law) must provide spanish language class for these kids, yet the Feds provide little to no funds for it. Also the case with the slow/AD (sorry....forget the name for the classes) kids. The burden has been squarely placed on property owners within the districts.


About the only thing I do understand about immigration policy, is that NEITHER party has done Jack-snipe about it in the 30 some years I've been paying attention.

Dandy little 'third rail issue'.......Hispanic community will be the majority within (don't hold me to this #) something like 50 yrs. Those in power....wish to stay there.

dnf777
12-19-2010, 09:00 AM
Dandy little 'third rail issue'.......Hispanic community will be the majority within (don't hold me to this #) something like 50 yrs. Those in power....wish to stay there.

I don't know about a national level, but remember with our electoral college, they may gain a "voting majority" much sooner via states like Texas and California.

depittydawg
12-19-2010, 09:01 AM
I'm REALLY naive when it comes to educating illegal aliens.

How do they get enrolled and attend school without being discovered? Or is it that they ARE discovered, and then we just don't do anything about it?

About the only thing I do understand about immigration policy, is that NEITHER party has done Jack-snipe about it in the 30 some years I've been paying attention.

That's because Wall Street loves illegals. They drive the cost of labor down.

depittydawg
12-19-2010, 09:13 AM
Easy.
from Yahoo News:
Hispanic activists and immigrant advocates had looked to the bill as a down payment on what they had hoped would be broader action by Obama and the current Democrat controlled Congress .

Wow, you mean Obama didn't come through on his promises? What a shocking revelation.

dnf777
12-19-2010, 09:31 AM
While the DREAM may fizzle, I've noticed a glaring silence on the repeal of DADT.

Not only did it pass by a larger margin than anticipated, it was done how Obama WANTED it done...via the legislative process...not an exec order.

Finally, we have caught up with the rest of the world in regards to this hang up of ours. Still, I hear homophobes talking about how this will destroy our nation and military.
Maybe they'll crawl back into their caves and let the rest of the world move on.

sandyg
12-19-2010, 10:47 AM
While the DREAM may fizzle, I've noticed a glaring silence on the repeal of DADT.

Not only did it pass by a larger margin than anticipated, it was done how Obama WANTED it done...via the legislative process...not an exec order.

Finally, we have caught up with the rest of the world in regards to this hang up of ours. Still, I hear homophobes talking about how this will destroy our nation and military.
Maybe they'll crawl back into their caves and let the rest of the world move on.

That's right, because all good libs know the rest of the world is always right and the USA is always wrong. God help anyone who disagrees with you! Why, we're Neanderthals!!!

road kill
12-19-2010, 10:55 AM
While the DREAM may fizzle, I've noticed a glaring silence on the repeal of DADT.

Not only did it pass by a larger margin than anticipated, it was done how Obama WANTED it done...via the legislative process...not an exec order.

Finally, we have caught up with the rest of the world in regards to this hang up of ours. Still, I hear homophobes talking about how this will destroy our nation and military.
Maybe they'll crawl back into their caves and let the rest of the world move on.

I would be interested on the take from those who have ACTUALLY served in combat situations.

Not speculation from rotund armchair know it alls, but people who have been there.
(knowing, of course, that their educated opinions are of no worth )

Just wonderin'..........



RK

dnf777
12-19-2010, 12:34 PM
I would be interested on the take from those who have ACTUALLY served in combat situations.

Not speculation from rotund armchair know it alls, but people who have been there.
(knowing, of course, that their educated opinions are of no worth )

Just wonderin'..........



RK

You've been there. What do you think?

I never ducked lead, but was in Operation Desert Fox, in a shelter in MOPP-4 for a week, hoping not to meet up with a SCUD, with a homo-medic, and not ONE person gave a rat's a$$. We were doing our job, and that's all that mattered. He did a fine job, and if I were banged up and he took care of me, I wouldn't give two cents if he were gay or straight, so long as he did his job.

They may be gay, but they love our country as much as you and me, and if they want to take up arms and serve her, shame on us for denying them that!

And the people who say they will be a distraction, must be gay themselves. When me and my wife were in uniform (before we were married), I GUARANTEE she was more of a "distraction" to me than 1000 gay men! :cool:

T. Mac
12-19-2010, 12:34 PM
I'm REALLY naive when it comes to educating illegal aliens.

How do they get enrolled and attend school without being discovered? Or is it that they ARE discovered, and then we just don't do anything about it?

About the only thing I do understand about immigration policy, is that NEITHER party has done Jack-snipe about it in the 30 some years I've been paying attention.

http://www2.ed.gov/programs/mep/index.html

dnf777
12-19-2010, 12:38 PM
Why, we're Neanderthals!!!

Don't give yourself so much credit. Neanderthals had basic reasoning skills.
(and by that, I refer to YOU, not anyone who disagrees with me.)

I have learned much from some of those with whom I butt heads with the most here.

sandyg
12-19-2010, 01:03 PM
Don't give yourself so much credit. Neanderthals had basic reasoning skills.
(and by that, I refer to YOU, not anyone who disagrees with me.)

I have learned much from some of those with whom I butt heads with the most here.

That's right, ignore the subject of my derision and attack me personally...

Such a good little lib!!!

dnf777
12-19-2010, 01:28 PM
That's right, ignore the subject of my derision and attack me personally...

Such a good little lib!!!



Here is the subject of your derision:

That's right, because all good libs know the rest of the world is always right and the USA is always wrong. God help anyone who disagrees with you! Why, we're Neanderthals!!!

You're such a doofus! Good for a laugh though...

If you read your own post, then my reply, you'll see I addressed the subject of your derision, the neanderthal qualities you assume I ascribe to you. Neanderthals would not use such big words as "derision", and dictionaries would have been prohibitively heavy during the stone age anyway, so again, I think you gave yourself a little too much credit.

Thanks for playing.....please come again! :D:D:D

sandyg
12-19-2010, 02:08 PM
Here is the subject of your derision:

That's right, because all good libs know the rest of the world is always right and the USA is always wrong. God help anyone who disagrees with you! Why, we're Neanderthals!!!

You're such a doofus! Good for a laugh though...

If you read your own post, then my reply, you'll see I addressed the subject of your derision, the neanderthal qualities you assume I ascribe to you. Neanderthals would not use such big words as "derision", and dictionaries would have been prohibitively heavy during the stone age anyway, so again, I think you gave yourself a little too much credit.

Thanks for playing.....please come again! :D:D:D

Yeah, you're a lib all right.
How can I tell? Your convoluted logic and reasoning ability.

Now get off my internet!!!!

road kill
12-19-2010, 04:40 PM
You've been there. What do you think?
I never ducked lead, but was in Operation Desert Fox, in a shelter in MOPP-4 for a week, hoping not to meet up with a SCUD, with a homo-medic, and not ONE person gave a rat's a$$. We were doing our job, and that's all that mattered. He did a fine job, and if I were banged up and he took care of me, I wouldn't give two cents if he were gay or straight, so long as he did his job.

They may be gay, but they love our country as much as you and me, and if they want to take up arms and serve her, shame on us for denying them that!

And the people who say they will be a distraction, must be gay themselves. When me and my wife were in uniform (before we were married), I GUARANTEE she was more of a "distraction" to me than 1000 gay men! :cool:


I am torn by a couple issues.

You can't proffess your religious preferences in public places anymore, but you are encouraged to profess your sexual preferences?

I don't know, somethin' not right here.

As far as in combat, I don't need to know your sexual or religious preferences (though a lot of prayin' goin' on under fire;-)).

I also don't believe women belong in combat.

Ain't sayin' I am right, you asked my opinion, this is it.


RK

mjh345
12-19-2010, 05:19 PM
I am torn by a couple issues.

You can't proffess your religious preferences in public places anymore, but you are encouraged to profess your sexual preferences?

I don't know, somethin' not right here.

RK

I think you are wrong on both of the issues you claim to be torn about

road kill
12-19-2010, 05:29 PM
I think you are wrong on both of the issues you claim to be torn about


Brilliant!!

Who asked you??

I was responding to dnf's question to me about what I think.
Your comment doesn't even make sense.


It is a correct answer, because it is what I think.


RK

dnf777
12-19-2010, 06:30 PM
I am torn by a couple issues.

You can't proffess your religious preferences in public places anymore, but you are encouraged to profess your sexual preferences?

I don't know, somethin' not right here.

As far as in combat, I don't need to know your sexual or religious preferences (though a lot of prayin' goin' on under fire;-)).

I also don't believe women belong in combat.

Ain't sayin' I am right, you asked my opinion, this is it.


RK

I don't think we're restricted in our religious preferences at all. There are over 100,000 churches you can freely choose to attend or not attend.

As for women in combat, I'll stand next to you as the flame throwers are aimed at us. I agree. I'll also go so far as to say I don't think women should be police on the beat, or firemen.......UNLESS they can pass a practical, job and safety-based physical requirement.

If I have to hand my 7 year old to a person with only three points of contact on a ladder 30 feet in the air, I'd rather it be a man than a woman who got the job only after a court anti-discrimination ruling. I haven't heard a parent yet who would argue with that!

road kill
12-19-2010, 06:55 PM
I don't think we're restricted in our religious preferences at all. There are over 100,000 churches you can freely choose to attend or not attend.

As for women in combat, I'll stand next to you as the flame throwers are aimed at us. I agree. I'll also go so far as to say I don't think women should be police on the beat, or firemen.......UNLESS they can pass a practical, job and safety-based physical requirement.

If I have to hand my 7 year old to a person with only three points of contact on a ladder 30 feet in the air, I'd rather it be a man than a woman who got the job only after a court anti-discrimination ruling. I haven't heard a parent yet who would argue with that!

My issue in regard to the combat thing is the possibility of being taken prisoner.

I know 2 ladies that play semi-pro football (womens league).

They are tougher than some guys I know, honestly.
I have lifted (weights) with them.
They can stay with me (almost;-)).
But most guys can't either.
I think women can be very good firefighters in theory because of their inner strength and courage.
But the bond between firefighters is like no other I have seen.
Except for MEN in combat.................



RK

BonMallari
12-19-2010, 07:02 PM
with all due respect to RK and DNF....I have no problem with females in combat or as street cops, as long as they earned their position and rank based on ability, merit...if they are placed due to a quota or title IX then I have a problem...the best person for the job is the one that is most qualified


watch GI Jane with Demi Moore

road kill
12-19-2010, 07:06 PM
with all due respect to RK and DNF....I have no problem with females in combat or as street cops, as long as they earned their position and rank based on ability, merit...if they are placed due to a quota or title IX then I have a problem...the best person for the job is the one that is most qualified


watch GI Jane with Demi Moore

When I was growing up I watched a lot of movies about war.
Some of them were really good.

None of them were even remotely close to reality.


Just sayin'........



RK

sandyg
12-19-2010, 07:07 PM
I don't think we're restricted in our religious preferences at all. There are over 100,000 churches you can freely choose to attend or not attend.

As for women in combat, I'll stand next to you as the flame throwers are aimed at us. I agree. I'll also go so far as to say I don't think women should be police on the beat, or firemen.......UNLESS they can pass a practical, job and safety-based physical requirement.

If I have to hand my 7 year old to a person with only three points of contact on a ladder 30 feet in the air, I'd rather it be a man than a woman who got the job only after a court anti-discrimination ruling. I haven't heard a parent yet who would argue with that!

You do realize how dumb this sounds, don't you? It's like saying you would rather go to a Jewish doctor than a black doctor who only got into medical school because of affirmative action admission policies.

BonMallari
12-19-2010, 07:17 PM
When I was growing up I watched a lot of movies about war.
Some of them were really good.

None of them were even remotely close to reality.


Just sayin'........



RK

Guess you missed my point, I wasnt saying GI Jane was realistic, but the story and moral of the movie is about stereotypes of women in the military, and what happens if they are captured...we all know what would happen..

But let me ask this question....who would you rather frisk your girlfriend, a male cop or a female cop...the answer is neither one, but there are some jobs and situations where gender makes someone more qualified



http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t319/bonmallari/gals/snipers.jpg

dnf777
12-19-2010, 07:19 PM
I know 2 ladies that play semi-pro football (womens league).

They are tougher than some guys I know, honestly.
I have lifted (weights) with them.
They can stay with me (almost;-)).

RK

If they pass a physical test, then I have no problem with firefighters.

I know the running back for the Pittsburgh WNFL team. She's tough. But if I'm a cop going into the QuestionMark club at 2am and need back up, I want YOU there, not her.

BonMallari
12-19-2010, 07:25 PM
If they pass a physical test, then I have no problem with firefighters.

I know the running back for the Pittsburgh WNFL team. She's tough. But if I'm a cop going into the QuestionMark club at 2am and need back up, I want YOU there, not her.

RK as your wing man at 2am....look out when the lights come on:p Visions of Steve Martin and Dan Ackroyd as two wild and crazy guys....


"....the girls get better looking at closing time":p

dnf777
12-19-2010, 07:27 PM
You do realize how dumb this sounds, don't you? It's like saying you would rather go to a Jewish doctor than a black doctor who only got into medical school because of affirmative action admission policies.


I would rather go to ANY doctor who got his degree through merit based education, than ANY doctor who was passed through the system based on AA.

Yes, I'm the one who sounds dumb here. :rolleyes:

BrianW
12-20-2010, 08:16 AM
Wow, you mean Obama didn't come through on his promises? What a shocking revelation.
Not at all. "Not coming through" would have been if they didn't introduce the legislation at all.
They tried and it failed, this time. Note that the Dem's are determined to keep trying though.

Remember, we're not (in this case) talking about the kids born here of illegal aliens, that's a bad enough situation all by itself. These children are already citizens of Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, China, Haiti, etc even if this country is all they remember. How can anyone argue that they "don't have any connection to their home country".
Once these young adults become citizens, then it's just a simple extension of the current policy of not splitting up the family of kids born here, to make it impossible to deport the parents, making it a double reward for an illegal act.

david gibson
12-20-2010, 09:07 AM
I don't think we're restricted in our religious preferences at all. There are over 100,000 churches you can freely choose to attend or not attend.

As for women in combat, I'll stand next to you as the flame throwers are aimed at us. I agree. I'll also go so far as to say I don't think women should be police on the beat, or firemen.......UNLESS they can pass a practical, job and safety-based physical requirement.

If I have to hand my 7 year old to a person with only three points of contact on a ladder 30 feet in the air, I'd rather it be a man than a woman who got the job only after a court anti-discrimination ruling. I haven't heard a parent yet who would argue with that!

thats not what RK said - he was referring to professing your religion openly. and he is right - it is accepted to stand up in city council and announce you are gay, but let a councilman announce he is christian and there will be an uproar - especially in blue areas. not saying i agree or disagree, but thats the case more and more.

i am sure there are many strong and tough gay men that can hold their own in a battlefield, no doubt, but i also think they are the exception. venturing in to the montrose district in houston and seeing the openly gay people there you would shudder to think of any of them on the front.

Franco
12-20-2010, 09:55 AM
Back to the original topic...The Dream Act.

This is just another Lib attempt for Amnesty.

More legislation that US Citizens did not ask for, do not want and do not want to pay for!

dnf777
12-20-2010, 10:37 AM
thats not what RK said - he was referring to professing your religion openly. and he is right - it is accepted to stand up in city council and announce you are gay, but let a councilman announce he is christian and there will be an uproar - especially in blue areas. not saying i agree or disagree, but thats the case more and more.

i am sure there are many strong and tough gay men that can hold their own in a battlefield, no doubt, but i also think they are the exception. venturing in to the montrose district in houston and seeing the openly gay people there you would shudder to think of any of them on the front.

As for not being able to profess being a Christian, please cite an example. Not really sure what purpose that serves at a council meeting anyway. In church yes, at a meeting about city budgets, not so sure.

Don't know if it is still the cool thing to do, but back in HS, everybody used to head to montrose to people watch and hang out. that was before Cathy Whitmire, though, so I'm sure its different now. I agree, there are plenty of gays who I could not see in combat. There are also plenty of straight folks too. Lots of whites, blacks, Hispanics, Christians, Jews, I can't see in combat. But as far as I know, NONE of those groups can be discriminated against IF they WANT to serve.

Fact is, there HAVE been thousands of gays who have proudly and honorably served in combat in every war we've ever fought. Until now, they had to hide their identity, and pretend to be something they're not. I frankly don't see what the fuss is all about, except as I've said before, the homophobes who are closet homos themselves, may fear they'll be outed by temptation?

dnf777
12-20-2010, 10:39 AM
Back to the original topic...The Dream Act.

This is just another Lib attempt for Amnesty.

More legislation that US Citizens did not ask for, do not want and do not want to pay for!

Why is amnesty attributed to lib ideals? I believe it was the father of modern conservatism, Ronald Reagan, who put amnesty into our system!

I agree with your second comment.

Cody Covey
12-20-2010, 10:45 AM
As for not being able to profess being a Christian, please cite an example. Not really sure what purpose that serves at a council meeting anyway. In church yes, at a meeting about city budgets, not so sure.

Don't know if it is still the cool thing to do, but back in HS, everybody used to head to montrose to people watch and hang out. that was before Cathy Whitmire, though, so I'm sure its different now. I agree, there are plenty of gays who I could not see in combat. There are also plenty of straight folks too. Lots of whites, blacks, Hispanics, Christians, Jews, I can't see in combat. But as far as I know, NONE of those groups can be discriminated against IF they WANT to serve.

Fact is, there HAVE been thousands of gays who have proudly and honorably served in combat in every war we've ever fought. Until now, they had to hide their identity, and pretend to be something they're not. I frankly don't see what the fuss is all about, except as I've said before, the homophobes who are closet homos themselves, may fear they'll be outed by temptation?
On that note what does being gay have to do with being in the military. Libs (not saying you are doing this) try and use the emotional argument that gays aren't allowed to serve which isn't at all true. They just can't say they are gay and no one can ask about it. I fail to see why that is a big issue but its done i have no real opinion other than that.

On to the dream act. I say if children of illegal immigrants want to serve as infantry and infantry only then that is fine but I completely disagree with paying them to go to school. The reason I say only infantry is because they won't be able to get clearance to do any of the other jobs.

There is no way in hell we should be paying them to go to school and then granting them citizenship. If they want to pay their own way to a masters then I would be fine with it actually but to allow citizenship because you went to college for 2 years is ridiculous.

david gibson
12-20-2010, 10:46 AM
Back to the original topic...The Dream Act.

This is just another Lib attempt for Amnesty.

More legislation that US Citizens did not ask for, do not want and do not want to pay for!

the biggest problem Reps had with it was its potential future use to get in other relatives - i have no problem with granting citizenship to one who puts in 4 yrs of military service, but not his brother or cousin or (gay lover? lol) whoever else he wants to sneak over and support. if they could totally lock that possibility out it would be doable, not sure why they didnt try harder.

road kill
12-20-2010, 12:10 PM
I guess if Neil & Bob want to serve, let them serve.

And make sure we all know they are bunkmates!!:rolleyes:


RK

mjh345
12-20-2010, 12:15 PM
thats not what RK said - he was referring to professing your religion openly. and he is right - it is accepted to stand up in city council and announce you are gay, but let a councilman announce he is christian and there will be an uproar - especially in blue areas. not saying i agree or disagree, but thats the case more and more.

i am sure there are many strong and tough gay men that can hold their own in a battlefield, no doubt, but i also think they are the exception. venturing in to the montrose district in houston and seeing the openly gay people there you would shudder to think of any of them on the front.

I don't think you or RK are correct on this issue [as well as others]; can either of you cite an example where anyone got in trouble for saying they are Christian [or whatever]

david gibson
12-20-2010, 01:06 PM
I don't think you or RK are correct on this issue [as well as others]; can either of you cite an example where anyone got in trouble for saying they are Christian [or whatever]

read the post again, i was just clarifying what RK said, i didnt state it and it doesnt mean its also my opinion.

that said, people get admonished all the time for putting "Christmas" in to the seasonal greetings these days, dont they? even Petco ordered their employees to say "happy holidays" and not "merry christmas".

i cannot cite specific examples, but in general you know as well as i do how Christianity gets bashed around lately, governments cant say "merry christmas", towns having "holiday trees", etc, govt. grants for artwork depicting Christ in a jar of urine, but govt. cant give give as much as a nod or a wink to the 10 commandments.

all RK was saying is that seems to be more frowned upon than coming out of the gay closet. he has a point worth some merit.

dnf777
12-20-2010, 02:33 PM
that said, people get admonished all the time for putting "Christmas" in to the seasonal greetings these days, dont they?



all RK was saying is that seems to be more frowned upon than coming out of the gay closet. he has a point worth some merit.

All his points have merit. Most all here do.

But I disagree also, as I originally replied. I personally have never heard anyone being admonished for saying Merry Christmas. Hell, I just told a jewish ENT doc "Merry Christmas" and he just chuckled and said, "I will, and YOU have a happy Haunaka!"

I think this "war on Christmas" has been blown WAY out of proportion by Beck et al.

As for Petco, they are a company that makes earnings by customer service. The best way to do that is to avoid anything religious or political, period. If you come to my house, I'll offer you a whiskey or beer, and cigar. If I ran a busisness, I wouldn't do that.

mjh345
12-20-2010, 05:17 PM
Brilliant!!

Who asked you??

I was responding to dnf's question to me about what I think.
Your comment doesn't even make sense.


It is a correct answer, because it is what I think.


RK

Hate to interrupt your self-righteous indignation tour, but just because you think it, that don't make it right.

If you tell me you think 2 + 2 = 5, I'm going to reserve my right to believe that it is not correct

road kill
12-20-2010, 05:47 PM
Hate to interrupt your self-righteous indignation tour, but just because you think it, that don't make it right.

If you tell me you think 2 + 2 = 5, I'm going to reserve my right to believe that it is not correct


Hey, genius, he asked me what I think.

I told him what I think.

Therefore it was a correct answer to his question to me.

See what I'm sayin'?

RK

Nor_Cal_Angler
12-20-2010, 05:54 PM
I don't think you or RK are correct on this issue [as well as others]; can either of you cite an example where anyone got in trouble for saying they are Christian [or whatever]


As for not being able to profess being a Christian, please cite an example. Not really sure what purpose that serves at a council meeting anyway. In church yes, at a meeting about city budgets, not so sure.

Don't know if it is still the cool thing to do, but back in HS, everybody used to head to montrose to people watch and hang out. that was before Cathy Whitmire, though, so I'm sure its different now. I agree, there are plenty of gays who I could not see in combat. There are also plenty of straight folks too. Lots of whites, blacks, Hispanics, Christians, Jews, I can't see in combat. But as far as I know, NONE of those groups can be discriminated against IF they WANT to serve.

Fact is, there HAVE been thousands of gays who have proudly and honorably served in combat in every war we've ever fought. Until now, they had to hide their identity, and pretend to be something they're not. I frankly don't see what the fuss is all about, except as I've said before, the homophobes who are closet homos themselves, may fear they'll be outed by temptation?


read the post again, i was just clarifying what RK said, i didnt state it and it doesnt mean its also my opinion.

that said, people get admonished all the time for putting "Christmas" in to the seasonal greetings these days, dont they? even Petco ordered their employees to say "happy holidays" and not "merry christmas".

i cannot cite specific examples, but in general you know as well as i do how Christianity gets bashed around lately, governments cant say "merry christmas", towns having "holiday trees", etc, govt. grants for artwork depicting Christ in a jar of urine, but govt. cant give give as much as a nod or a wink to the 10 commandments.

all RK was saying is that seems to be more frowned upon than coming out of the gay closet. he has a point worth some merit.


All his points have merit. Most all here do.

But I disagree also, as I originally replied. I personally have never heard anyone being admonished for saying Merry Christmas. Hell, I just told a jewish ENT doc "Merry Christmas" and he just chuckled and said, "I will, and YOU have a happy Haunaka!"

I think this "war on Christmas" has been blown WAY out of proportion by Beck et al.

As for Petco, they are a company that makes earnings by customer service. The best way to do that is to avoid anything religious or political, period. If you come to my house, I'll offer you a whiskey or beer, and cigar. If I ran a busisness, I wouldn't do that.

Carrie Prejean........WoW and who would of thought it just so happens to be about both topic's....Saying your Christian and Speaking about being GAY.

a RECENT example regards,

NCA

road kill
12-20-2010, 05:56 PM
Carrie Prejean........WoW and who would of thought it just so happens to be about both topic's....Saying your Christian and Speaking about being GAY.

a RECENT example regards,

NCA

OUCH!!


RK

dnf777
12-20-2010, 06:44 PM
Carrie Prejean........WoW and who would of thought it just so happens to be about both topic's....Saying your Christian and Speaking about being GAY.

a RECENT example regards,

NCA

If you're referring to what I'm thinking of, it was SHE who spoke out regarding limiting the rights of others, not the other way around.

Just today, I said "Merry Christmas" to several co-workers, (one of whom is Jewish, and we had a chuckle), a store clerk, our UPS driver, and the Milk truck driver, WHO, when I explained how much I like the milk crates for storing ducks and other dog training gear in, replied, "I have 1500 on my truck...how many to you want?"

And not ONE admonishment! Christmas is alive and well--RELAX! And enjoy Elvis' Christmas serenades--I am!

road kill
12-20-2010, 06:48 PM
If you're referring to what I'm thinking of, it was SHE who spoke out regarding limiting the rights of others, not the other way around.

Just today, I said "Merry Christmas" to several co-workers, (one of whom is Jewish, and we had a chuckle), a store clerk, our UPS driver, and the Milk truck driver, WHO, when I explained how much I like the milk crates for storing ducks and other dog training gear in, replied, "I have 1500 on my truck...how many to you want?"

And not ONE admonishment! Christmas is alive and well--RELAX! And enjoy Elvis' Christmas serenades--I am!

:cool::black:

RK & Elvis

Nor_Cal_Angler
12-20-2010, 09:38 PM
If you're referring to what I'm thinking of, it was SHE who spoke out regarding limiting the rights of others, not the other way around.
Just today, I said "Merry Christmas" to several co-workers, (one of whom is Jewish, and we had a chuckle), a store clerk, our UPS driver, and the Milk truck driver, WHO, when I explained how much I like the milk crates for storing ducks and other dog training gear in, replied, "I have 1500 on my truck...how many to you want?"

And not ONE admonishment! Christmas is alive and well--RELAX! And enjoy Elvis' Christmas serenades--I am!

Round TWO:

Just like RK...here who was admonished for stating HIS opinion...

SHE was ASKED A QUESTION....a LOADED question....from a OPENLY GAY MAN (PUBLICLY OPEN...note: NO ADMONISHMENT TOWARDS HIM) and she too stated her OPEN HONEST OPINION....based upon her PUBLIC RELIGION...

SHE was publicly humiliated, blasted by the LEFT WING media monsters, striped of her title, and made to feel a hate monger for giving an answer to a QUESTION....

so...if you are remembering correctly (see bolded above) She did not speak out but spoke TO a question directed to her!!!!!!!!!! and SHE is made to feel the FREAK SHOW.

remembering the challenge..."please cite an example where saying your Christian gets you in trouble" an example was provided and now your suggesting that the example isnt valid or allowed to prove a point because in YOUR world view it was SHE who was in the wrong....errrrrr...daaaaaa...knock, knock anyone home?????

on your back looking up regards,

NCA

david gibson
12-20-2010, 10:00 PM
Round TWO:

Just like RK...here who was admonished for stating HIS opinion...

SHE was ASKED A QUESTION....a LOADED question....from a OPENLY GAY MAN (PUBLICLY OPEN...note: NO ADMONISHMENT TOWARDS HIM) and she too stated her OPEN HONEST OPINION....based upon her PUBLIC RELIGION...

SHE was publicly humiliated, blasted by the LEFT WING media monsters, striped of her title, and made to feel a hate monger for giving an answer to a QUESTION....

so...if you are remembering correctly (see bolded above) She did not speak out but spoke TO a question directed to her!!!!!!!!!! and SHE is made to feel the FREAK SHOW.

remembering the challenge..."please cite an example where saying your Christian gets you in trouble" an example was provided and now your suggesting that the example isnt valid or allowed to prove a point because in YOUR world view it was SHE who was in the wrong....errrrrr...daaaaaa...knock, knock anyone home?????

on your back looking up regards,

NCA

i am not even really a christian and i get it. thanks NCA for some clarity there.

all i know from first hand experience is the petco kid saying he was told he could not say merry christmas.

no comment on his apparent gender alignment.

sandyg
12-20-2010, 10:40 PM
Apparently one person is ashamed of using the word "Christmas". Why am I not surprised that it's from NPR, National Propaganda Radio, the same group that fired Juan Williams two months ago?



"I want to say one thing about the budget that didn’t get passed, the omnibus bill. You know, we talk a lot about – we just passed this huge tax cut in part because business said, you know, we have to plan, we have to know what kind of tax cuts we have. Well, these agencies, including the Defense Department, don't know how much money they've got and for what. And I was at – forgive the expression – a Christmas party at the Department of Justice and people actually were really worried about this," NPR's Nina Totenberg said on PBS this weekend.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/12/20/nprs_nina_totenberg_apologizes_for_saying_christma s.html

dnf777
12-21-2010, 08:17 AM
Round TWO:

Just like RK...here who was admonished for stating HIS opinion...

SHE was ASKED A QUESTION....a LOADED question....from a OPENLY GAY MAN (PUBLICLY OPEN...note: NO ADMONISHMENT TOWARDS HIM) and she too stated her OPEN HONEST OPINION....based upon her PUBLIC RELIGION...

SHE was publicly humiliated, blasted by the LEFT WING media monsters, striped of her title, and made to feel a hate monger for giving an answer to a QUESTION....

so...if you are remembering correctly (see bolded above) She did not speak out but spoke TO a question directed to her!!!!!!!!!! and SHE is made to feel the FREAK SHOW.

remembering the challenge..."please cite an example where saying your Christian gets you in trouble" an example was provided and now your suggesting that the example isnt valid or allowed to prove a point because in YOUR world view it was SHE who was in the wrong....errrrrr...daaaaaa...knock, knock anyone home?????

on your back looking up regards,

NCA

You fail to see the line between expressing one's opinion, and even practicing one's beliefs.....versus IMPOSING ONE'S BELIEFS ON OTHERS, who disagree, and therefore deny them thier rights.

You say RK was admonished? Here was my reply to that:

All his points have merit. Most all here do.

Hardly sounds like admonishment to me? Sounds more like tolerance and respect of other's opinions. Had I said "he's not allowed to say that! Pass a law silencing him!" THAT would be more equivalent to what Pregian (sp?) said, in supporting a statutory ban on other people, to fit HER opinions.

And really, I don't pay attention to Trump, Pergian, or the miss usa, so this is all what i gather from here and occasional news snippets I can't avoid.

dnf777
12-21-2010, 08:20 AM
Apparently one person is ashamed of using the word "Christmas". Why am I not surprised that it's from NPR, National Propaganda Radio, the same group that fired Juan Williams two months ago?



"I want to say one thing about the budget that didn’t get passed, the omnibus bill. You know, we talk a lot about – we just passed this huge tax cut in part because business said, you know, we have to plan, we have to know what kind of tax cuts we have. Well, these agencies, including the Defense Department, don't know how much money they've got and for what. And I was at – forgive the expression – a Christmas party at the Department of Justice and people actually were really worried about this," NPR's Nina Totenberg said on PBS this weekend.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2010/12/20/nprs_nina_totenberg_apologizes_for_saying_christma s.html


That is the most lame example of missing satire I've ever seen. Why am I not surprised? You can't even recognize when someone is siding WITH you, you're so geared for a fight.

Merry Christmas

sandyg
12-21-2010, 08:42 AM
That is the most lame example of missing satire I've ever seen. Why am I not surprised? You can't even recognize when someone is siding WITH you, you're so geared for a fight.

Merry Christmas

Spin!!!!!!

Nor_Cal_Angler
12-21-2010, 02:36 PM
You fail to see the line between expressing one's opinion, and even practicing one's beliefs.....versus IMPOSING ONE'S BELIEFS ON OTHERS, who disagree, and therefore deny them thier rights.

You say RK was admonished? Here was my reply to that:

All his points have merit. Most all here do.

Hardly sounds like admonishment to me? Sounds more like tolerance and respect of other's opinions. Had I said "he's not allowed to say that! Pass a law silencing him!" THAT would be more equivalent to what Pregian (sp?) said, in supporting a statutory ban on other people, to fit HER opinions.

And really, I don't pay attention to Trump, Pergian, or the miss usa, so this is all what i gather from here and occasional news snippets I can't avoid.

Merry Go Round...

She did not impose one ounce of her belief on ANYONE...SHE ANSWERED A QUESTION!!!!!!!!!!! and she was ADMONISHED for it. She stated, that in her faith (Christianity) the institution of marriage is between a man and a woman.

JUST FREAK"N ADMIT IT....stop trying to change the arguement and example so that you dont lose!!!!!!!!

Doc, some people just die, you dont have all the answers, admit that you and others on this thread asked for an example of being treated unjustly for being christian and being open about it, an example was given in a timely mannor and from a recent even and now your unhappy about it.....DOC, let the patient DIE....it was ment to be!!!!!

and I never gave your quote the credit of admonishing RK...I know you said his points and opinions have merit...THATS WHY I ONLY HIGHLIGHTED YOUR CHALLENGE to Cite an example.....

But others told him he was wong, that he didnt know what he was talking about, that his OPINION was not valid and with out merit because he was arguing from the opsite side of the isle as they were....

KINDA LIKE YOUR DOING NOW, Regards

NCA

ducknwork
12-22-2010, 07:01 AM
If you have a few minutes....read this...

http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2009/04/23/miss-california-carrie-prejean-marriage-remarks-controversy-roundup-of-updates/

david gibson
12-22-2010, 07:21 AM
If you have a few minutes....read this...

http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2009/04/23/miss-california-carrie-prejean-marriage-remarks-controversy-roundup-of-updates/

i'll go on record as stating i stand behind Ms. Prejean, and it is pretty clear who here is there with me - and who is not.

and whats funny as heck is those of you standing behind the likes of perez hilton. you know who you are! .

road kill
12-22-2010, 07:40 AM
i'll go on record as stating i stand behind Ms. Prejean, and it is pretty clear who here is there with me - and who is not.

and whats funny as heck is those of you standing behind the likes of perez hilton. you know who you are! .

I'll bet he likes that!!!!!:shock:


RK

ducknwork
12-22-2010, 08:13 AM
i'll go on record as stating i stand behind Ms. Prejean, and it is pretty clear who here is there with me - and who is not.

and whats funny as heck is those of you standing behind the likes of perez hilton. you know who you are! .


Why I don't understand is how dnf says that she was trying to impose her beliefs on others. If you read her quote, all she did was state her beliefs. Why can she not state her beliefs without being called a b*tch and a c*nt by some worthless internet blogger and have her named dragged through the mud mercilessly?


Perez Hilton: “Vermont recently became the fourth state to legalize same sex marriage. Do you think every state should follow suit? Why or why not?”

Carrie Prejean: “Well I think it’s great that Americans are able to choose one or the other. Um, we live in a land that you can choose same sex marriage or opposite marriage and, you know what, in my country and in, in my family, I think that I believe that a marriage should be between a man and a woman. No offense to anybody out there. But that’s how I was raised and that’s how I think that it should be between a man and a woman.”



I guess opinions are only allowed if they are in agreement with the left and their liberal and immoral agenda.

dnf777
12-22-2010, 08:48 AM
Why I don't understand is how dnf says that she was trying to impose her beliefs on others. If you read her quote, all she did was state her beliefs. Why can she not state her beliefs without being called a b*tch and a c*nt by some worthless internet blogger and have her named dragged through the mud mercilessly?



I guess opinions are only allowed if they are in agreement with the left and their liberal and immoral agenda.

Gerry et al,
I'm not intimately familiar with pergians exact comments. if she was merely stating her position, then I have no problem, and apologize for being unclear.

My understanding from what news snippets I caught, were that she spoke in favor of a legislative ban on gay marriage. Hell, I'm opposed to that personally, but don't think it should be a law. Then it becomes systematic discrimination.

So If all she did was say she didn't like it or was opposed to it, my apologies.
I do have tolerance for all different opinions, just not discrimination. We are a free country. To our opinions, and whatever lifestyle you choose.

ducknwork
12-22-2010, 10:50 AM
Gerry et al,
I'm not intimately familiar with pergians exact comments. if she was merely stating her position, then I have no problem, and apologize for being unclear.

My understanding from what news snippets I caught, were that she spoke in favor of a legislative ban on gay marriage. Hell, I'm opposed to that personally, but don't think it should be a law. Then it becomes systematic discrimination.

So If all she did was say she didn't like it or was opposed to it, my apologies.
I do have tolerance for all different opinions, just not discrimination. We are a free country. To our opinions, and whatever lifestyle you choose.

Her direct quote is in my post just above yours. Am I on ignore?:(

How do you feel about the way she was treated and talked about after the fact for stating her beliefs? Everyone has a problem with her being opposed to gay marriage, but nobody wants to say a single word to chastise the POS queer blogger and his crowd. What about her losing the competition because of her answer? Is this not religious discrimination? Hilton, who was a judge, even said that her answer lost the crown for her. Why do none of you have a problem with that?

Watch this interview and tell me what you think would happen if a religious conservative was talking about a gay rights activist like this...
http://michellemalkin.com/2009/04/20/trash-blogger-retracts-apology-to-miss-california-usa-invokes-the-c-word/

dnf777
12-22-2010, 04:07 PM
Without your Daffy avatar, you don't catch my attention as quickly!

I have no problem with her beliefs "in her family". But its not her country to tell everyone else what to do or not do. Our Constitution guarantees us certain rights. Even if a majority choose so, you cannot deny those certain rights.

If someone doesn't believe in gay marriage, don't marry gay!

She is completely free to express her opinion, and she did. Don't the judges have the same right to express theirs with their vote? They did.

duckheads
12-22-2010, 04:49 PM
Much more to the story. why don't you read the link before commenting. you remind me of a skit on the old bull winkle show, Mr know it all!!!!!!!!

dnf777
12-22-2010, 05:33 PM
. why don't you read the link before commenting.

Because I really don't care to. The extent of my interest is that people are free to express their opinions, and that nobody is free to restrict or deny the rights of others.

ducknwork
12-27-2010, 06:28 AM
She is completely free to express her opinion, and she did. Don't the judges have the same right to express theirs with their vote? They did.

Not when you are casting your vote based on something that is not part of the judging criteria...

Ken Bora
12-27-2010, 06:50 AM
and whats funny as heck is those of you standing behind the likes of perez hilton..

must need help gettin' the hampster



.

Ken Bora
12-27-2010, 06:56 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/18/business/18mortgage.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=a25

There are some things I don't quite understand about this bill.
I can understand that kids brought here as infants, had no control over that. Their parents had that control; and also the control that kept the kids here as they grew up.?

reminds me of a saying my Grandfather used, way back.
"If your Cat had kittens in the oven, would you call um cookies?"

ducknwork
12-27-2010, 07:58 AM
must need help gettin' the hampster



.

Some things should not be brought up again...:?