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dnf777
12-21-2010, 05:44 PM
Someone PLEASE tell me that the party of 911, the party of hero worship, the party who's publicity arm (Fox News) paraded first responders on their shows for years.......is not filibustering the legislation AGAIN that would provide health benefits to those heroes.


What POSSIBLE reason do they have for denying these people compensation for the health effects they suffer from being there for us when we needed them? Why can we not be there for them?

this is a badge of disgrace for Mitch McConnell and the GoP.

BonMallari
12-21-2010, 06:01 PM
ALWAYS follow the money trail, there is always other provisions in ANY bill that the public never sees


Opponents of the measure, trying to work out an agreement to hold some kind of vote before adjournment, repeatedly point out that they are not against this cause. Rather, as explained by an aide to Sen. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz, there are "concerns" about the "ambiguity" in the bill, for example, how do you deal with any redundancy or overlap when it comes to those responders who will receive money from the Victims Compensation Fund and who, exactly, qualifies?

Still, GOP aides are more than conscious of the difficult position they are in against a powerful picture of cancer victims on national television pleading for help.

Aides on both sides of the argument say the pressure could break the logjam, but at the moment, Republicans have the power to possibly run out the clock in 2010, forcing supporters into a new Congress where fiscal concerns are paramount.

Separately, some people in the travel industry are troubled by the way the Schumer-Gillibrand bill pays for the $6 billion victims' fund. It takes a funding stream that is in existence until 2015 to help their industry -- a fee on tourists from 36 countries that participate in the visa waiver program, money that is then turned around in order to promote U.S. tourism.

Supporters of the tourism promotion originally said that money was "seed money" only and would end in 2015. Now some in the industry want to see that fee continued.

The 9/11 bill does extend that fee, but it takes the money to pay for the health care fund.


Read more: http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/12/21/showdown-over-911-first-responders-health-bill#ixzz18n2XuUwY

dnf777
12-21-2010, 06:15 PM
As it currently stands, it needs 6-7 billion dollars. That's two weeks in Afghanistan. We, as patriotic Americans who support our first responders can't come up with this? I mean, we hammered out a compromise on a 800 billion tax break for the rich, and benefits for the unemployed.......we can't come up with less than 1/100th of that for our heroes who are NOT rich and NOT unemployed? Where was the delay while we worked out "details" about tax breaks for those already getting loopholes, etc?

I'm not sure who was quoted, but surely they are not referring to a GOP congress when they say "fiscal concerns are paramount"??? Its Christmas time, not April fool's Day!

BonMallari
12-21-2010, 07:00 PM
Dnf. not disagreeing with you, but they (both sides) are playing political games and the people that need the help are getting the shaft...the money is there, no doubt about that...it just comes down to arm twisting and hog trading, who gives up their pork and who gets what they want in exchange for a vote...

like the old joke about the working gal..."now that we have established what you are, all we are negotiating is the price.."

dnf777
12-21-2010, 07:08 PM
like the old joke about the working gal..."now that we have established what you are, all we are negotiating is the price.."

Lord knows there's enough of THAT going on in DC! ;)

But hey, getting caught can get you a job with CNN prime time!

YardleyLabs
12-21-2010, 07:56 PM
Maybe it's time to do something about the deficit by paying for every new dollar that is going to be spent by either cutting something else or raising a new revenue source to pay for it, rather than using the size of our current deficit as an excuse for increasing the deficit even more. The positive side of the Democratic bill is that it provides a revenue source saying, in effect, that one good cause is better than another. Obviously that creates a conflict, but that is what balancing a budget is all about. Tax cuts, unemployment extensions, benefits for 9/11 responders, are all good causes. But the bills also have to be paid. What the Republicans have not done yet is to propose a specific, hard dollar approach for paying the bill other than that proposed by the Dems. It's all a question of priorities.

Marvin S
12-21-2010, 09:39 PM
What POSSIBLE reason do they have for denying these people compensation for the health effects they suffer from being there for us when we needed them? Why can we not be there for them?


You might start by explaining to all on this forum what responsibility the national taxpayer bears for NYFD personnel. If you can do that I'll tell you why it's not good policy :o.

dnf777
12-21-2010, 09:46 PM
You might start by explaining to all on this forum what responsibility the national taxpayer bears for NYFD personnel. If you can do that I'll tell you why it's not good policy :o.


You're kidding, right? :shock:

I would be happy and PROUD to know my tax dollars go to helping those who didn't hesitate in the face of personal danger to help fellow Americans. That was an attack on America. Not just NYC.

You ARE kidding, right?

Buzz
12-21-2010, 09:55 PM
Maybe it's time to do something about the deficit by paying for every new dollar that is going to be spent by either cutting something else or raising a new revenue source to pay for it, rather than using the size of our current deficit as an excuse for increasing the deficit even more. The positive side of the Democratic bill is that it provides a revenue source saying, in effect, that one good cause is better than another. Obviously that creates a conflict, but that is what balancing a budget is all about. Tax cuts, unemployment extensions, benefits for 9/11 responders, are all good causes. But the bills also have to be paid. What the Republicans have not done yet is to propose a specific, hard dollar approach for paying the bill other than that proposed by the Dems. It's all a question of priorities.


Just a few weeks ago the deficit was the great evil facing America with intense focus on the report from the debt commission, everyone in Washington was saying that what we need is austerity NOW! The following week ushers in a magical extension of the Bush tax cuts, blowing a hole in the deficit that makes the Obama stimulus look like small potatoes. Face it, concern for the deficit is a front for opposing any progressive initiative, but that concern is quickly forgotten when running up the debt serves conservative goals.

Buzz
12-21-2010, 09:58 PM
You're kidding, right? :shock:

I would be happy and PROUD to know my tax dollars go to helping those who didn't hesitate in the face of personal danger to help fellow Americans. That was an attack on America. Not just NYC.

You ARE kidding, right?

It wasn't just FDNY members who were injured either. Rescue personnel and steel workers came from across the country to dig for survivors and remains in that rubble pile.

Marvin S
12-21-2010, 10:04 PM
You're kidding, right? :shock:

I would be happy and PROUD to know my tax dollars go to helping those who didn't hesitate in the face of personal danger to help fellow Americans. That was an attack on America. Not just NYC.

You ARE kidding, right?

No, I am not kidding! Explain to me why the taxpayer is any state but NY has any responsibility toward those folks. & then I will gladly explain to you why I think they do not!!!!!!!!!

Your argument to date is only an emotional one, not based in fact, please try facts.

YardleyLabs
12-21-2010, 10:14 PM
Just a few weeks ago the deficit was the great evil facing America with intense focus on the report from the debt commission, everyone in Washington was saying that what we need is austerity NOW! The following week ushers in a magical extension of the Bush tax cuts, blowing a hole in the deficit that makes the Obama stimulus look like small potatoes. Face it, concern for the deficit is a front for opposing any progressive initiative, but that concern is quickly forgotten when running up the debt serves conservative goals.
While Democrats have a better record on attacking deficits than Republicans since 1980, they have both lost all sense of responsibility now. The moment someone starts gtelling you that his deifict is jusyified because it is an investment in our future, it's time to sew your wallet in your pocket. It is justifiable to run a short term deficit to stimulate the economy during a downturn. It is appropriate to run a short term surplus when the economy is growing too fast. You cannot run a short term deficit or surpus unless the action taken are not permanent. Over the long term, the budget must be in balance. It doesn't matter if we have a war, our schools need improving, or our roads and infrastructure are falling apart. All of those are good reasons for governments to spend money; they are not excuses for failing to pay our bills. If a war is worth fighting, it is worth paying for it now even if that requires a special war tax.Those who think that cutting tax invariably increases revenues haven't read the research. Even if one accepts the untested and unproven hypotheses behind the Laffer curve, the emphasis is n the word curve. The hypothesis is that there is a sweet point for taxes. When you are at that sweet point, either increasing or decreasing taxes will cut revenues. There is some evidence to support the hypothesis as long as you include a lot of footnoted caveats. However, the problems with the Bush tax cuts was that they clearly went below that sweet point and decreased revenues. That works only if the society makes a concrete decision to redefine the role of government. For our government to operate at current revenue levels, part of that redefinition must be to end our role as a military superpower. Few seem willing to do this. Closing down all the departments that conservatives hate would barely make a dent in our deficit.

dnf777
12-21-2010, 10:15 PM
I don't know. Why was any federal aid sent to the PacNW when Mt. St.Helens erupted? It was a local event.

Odd. Terrorists hit America. Kill 3000 from all 50 states, disrupt national and global economies, every flight in the US grounded for 3 days (except Saudis fleeing the country by executive order) people from all over responded during crisis, the President of the United States stood on the rubble with a bullhorn, arm in arm with first responders.....and you call it a NY thing?

But you have no problem with a multi-trillion dollar war that we are still engaged in? Gee, that's a pretty big commitment from two presidents for just a NY thing!

Wow, if you're just pullin' my leg, I fell for it. (giving you an out here)

You ARE kidding, right?

sandyg
12-21-2010, 10:22 PM
You're kidding, right? :shock:

I would be happy and PROUD to know my tax dollars go to helping those who didn't hesitate in the face of personal danger to help fellow Americans. That was an attack on America. Not just NYC.

You ARE kidding, right?

You like it so much, you write the check! Stop belittling those who think it is a local issue, not a national issue.

dnf777
12-21-2010, 10:42 PM
Who belittled anyone?
Your president launched the war in Afghanistan, to "hunt down and kill" those responsible for 911. Why would the president, he's a busy man, get involved in such a local issue? Why should the US Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Coast Guard (thank you RK!) be involved in New York's problems?

Is this a republican stance?
I can't believe that many republicans feel that we non-New Yorkers should turn our backs on police and firemen of 9-11. George Bush didn't. Or were his words and deeds there with the bull horn just photo-op?

So you can come up with 800 billion in unfunded (ie borrowed from China) dollars for tax cuts, but you can't come up with 1/100th of that for fellow Americans responding to a national disaster? A terrorist attack on our soil?

You guys are jerkin' my chain, aren't you? The joke's on me?

Marvin S
12-21-2010, 10:46 PM
I don't know. Why was any federal aid sent to the PacNW when Mt. St.Helens erupted? It was a local event.

Mt St Helens is on federal property, though we are not discussing that event, it would also be one where the aid if I had a vote would have been miserly. Those folks chose to live there, geologic events happen!!!!!!


Odd. Terrorists hit America. Kill 3000 from all 50 states, disrupt national and global economies, every flight in the US grounded for 3 days (except Saudis fleeing the country by executive order) people from all over responded during crisis, the President of the United States stood on the rubble with a bullhorn, arm in arm with first responders.....and you call it a NY thing?

I have not forgotten the fact, though some on this forum have, that 3,000 innocent people were killed. I also have not forgotten their country of origin. As for GWB & the bullhorn, it was the only way someone of his class could rally the country. I am most thankful it was not algore or one of the other incompetents foisted off on the country as progressives.


But you have no problem with a multi-trillion dollar war that we are still engaged in? Gee, that's a pretty big commitment from two presidents for just a NY thing!

Wow, if you're just pullin' my leg, I fell for it. (giving you an out here)

You ARE kidding, right?

NO, I am not kidding!!!!!!!!!! I am not happy with the war & the prosecution of same, but do believe we need to be there, but in a different manner. I am not happy with the open checkbook philosophy started by GWB & continued by BHO, & believe there to have been a better way. But it shows what a joke our public agencies: CIA, State Dept, etc. have become with the 70% rate of progressives in their employ.

Now for the 3rd time - what are your ideas, justify why you believe I should pay for 1 0unce of HC for an employee of a state that is basically bankrupt. They hired the employee, set the terms & conditions, I had no input, why would you consider me remotely responsible for what they do???????????????

sandyg
12-21-2010, 10:47 PM
Who belittled anyone?
Your president launched the war in Afghanistan, to "hunt down and kill" those responsible for 911. Why would the president, he's a busy man, get involved in such a local issue? Why should the US Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Coast Guard (thank you RK!) be involved in New York's problems?

Is this a republican stance?
I can't believe that many republicans feel that we non-New Yorkers should turn our backs on police and firemen of 9-11. George Bush didn't. Or were his words and deeds there with the bull horn just photo-op?

So you can come up with 800 billion in unfunded (ie borrowed from China) dollars for tax cuts, but you can't come up with 1/100th of that for fellow Americans responding to a national disaster? A terrorist attack on our soil?

You guys are jerkin' my chain, aren't you? The joke's on me?

Wipe the drool off of your chin, you blithering idiot. Yours is not the only opinion or the correct opinion, you sanctimonious a$$hole.

dnf777
12-21-2010, 10:52 PM
Wipe the drool off of your chin, you blithering idiot. Yours is not the only opinion or the correct opinion, you sanctimonious a$$hole.


There ya go! :D:D:D

dnf777
12-21-2010, 10:58 PM
Now for the 3rd time - what are your ideas, justify why you believe I should pay for 1 0unce of HC for an employee of a state that is basically bankrupt. They hired the employee, set the terms & conditions, I had no input, why would you consider me remotely responsible for what they do???????????????

Hey, I agree with some of what you said up there about the wars!

As for your question above, I can't believe you need an explanation. Those men and women responded to a NATIONAL ATTACK. They didn't check their union rules on overtime. They ran head first into the fire to help who ever needed it. Many of them who ran into those towers never came out. Some of them have lost their city or state benefits after being released for "non work-related" factors.

Maybe they weren't wearing federal or military uniforms, but they served not only NYC, but the entire nation those days, and deserve compensation for the health effects they suffered.

So is this your opinion, or the position of the republican party also?
I just find this so incongruent with all the show of patriotism the republican party used surrounding 9-11, and all the first responders that appeared on fox waving flags. (all American flags, no NY state flags, BTW)

Buzz
12-21-2010, 10:59 PM
Wipe the drool off of your chin, you blithering idiot. Yours is not the only opinion or the correct opinion, you sanctimonious a$$hole.

How this person manages to maintain an active account here is a mystery.

sandyg
12-21-2010, 11:04 PM
How this person manages to maintain an active account here is a mystery.

I wonder the same about you.

depittydawg
12-21-2010, 11:16 PM
Now for the 3rd time - what are your ideas, justify why you believe I should pay for 1 0unce of HC for an employee of a state that is basically bankrupt. They hired the employee, set the terms & conditions, I had no input, why would you consider me remotely responsible for what they do???????????????

How about because it's the right thing to do. What is the use of having a'nation' if we don't help each other? Those folks would have pulled you out of that rubble and not asked you for even a thank you in return. Why would you NOT want to help them now? Sorry I don't see any logic in your argument, Let alone moral conscience.

depittydawg
12-21-2010, 11:18 PM
How this person manages to maintain an active account here is a mystery.

Well to my knowledge, nobody has ever gotten the boot around here. Not sure what you'd have to do to get it. Pretty sure I've pushed the envelope a few times... :D:D:D:D

Nor_Cal_Angler
12-21-2010, 11:44 PM
How about because it's the right thing to do. What is the use of having a'nation' if we don't help each other? Those folks would have pulled you out of that rubble and not asked you for even a thank you in return. Why would you NOT want to help them now? Sorry I don't see any logic in your argument, Let alone moral conscience.

Why is it always the cry of "Its the right thing to do" I am tired of that...

And do not try to drag me into this...I DO pull people out of burning wreckage for a living....I am only commenting on your overbearing "moral conscience"

Utopian Society we are not regards,

NCA

Chris Atkinson
12-22-2010, 06:31 AM
Wipe the drool off of your chin, you blithering idiot. Yours is not the only opinion or the correct opinion, you sanctimonious a$$hole.

You know guys....this is one of my least favorite parts of my "job".

Really guys. I should not have to come in here and as you all to keep it above the line.

Personal attacks and demeaning comments like this are not something that I'm willing to allow to become the norm in RTF culture.

Please accept that and keep it between the guardrails. And remember, it's Christmas time and you're supposed to be on RTF to have fun. Not to be hateful.

Thanks, chris

Chris Atkinson
12-22-2010, 06:33 AM
How this person manages to maintain an active account here is a mystery.

If someone is crossing the line, please feel free to point it out.

RTF culture is something worth maintaining ...to me anyhow. I bet the sponsors would appreciate that too, as well as 99% of those who frequent RTF for enjoyment and benefit....not for hatefulness.

217-454-0361 if anyone needs to talk to me live. I'm a real guy and I really care about keeping RTF dirty side down, clean side up.

Chris

road kill
12-22-2010, 06:46 AM
Wipe the drool off of your chin, you blithering idiot. Yours is not the only opinion or the correct opinion, you sanctimonious a$$hole.
Sandyg, I kinda like you sometimes, but this is over the line.
You are an embarrassment to my side of the spectrum.

Choose your words more wisely.
You have lost this argument......for all of us.

stan b

Marvin S
12-22-2010, 09:04 AM
As for your question above, I can't believe you need an explanation. Those men and women responded to a NATIONAL ATTACK. They didn't check their union rules on overtime. They ran head first into the fire to help who ever needed it. Many of them who ran into those towers never came out. Some of them have lost their city or state benefits after being released for "non work-related" factors.

Maybe they weren't wearing federal or military uniforms, but they served not only NYC, but the entire nation those days, and deserve compensation for the health effects they suffered.

So is this your opinion, or the position of the republican party also?
I just find this so incongruent with all the show of patriotism the republican party used surrounding 9-11, and all the first responders that appeared on fox waving flags. (all American flags, no NY state flags, BTW)

I speak for myself - create my own sound bites - & believe I am like many self reliant citizens of this country. Though I have listened to many long winded dissertations on how I am wrong :).

So here goes, as long as you refuse to answer. Don't you have any canned sound bites besides waving a flag. 1st &foremost, Charly Schumer, Reid's main attack dog, has his name on the bill. If one supports the bill, they are not interested in keeping spending down as professed - if one does not support the bill, they are hard hearted. I personally consider it an easy call, this is a NY issue, either the city or the state should pick up the tab. There have already been countless victim's funds, legislation passed to ease the pain, no income tax on disability bennies, the list just goes on. There comes a point in time that enough is enough, apparently the city/state has decided in some circumstances these folks are no longer eligible for work &/or additional benefits. Why should the US taxpayer foot the bill for anything additional?

While this is not on subject, it is similar. A little over a year ago 4 officers were shot to death in a coffee shop prior to going on shift. The spin on how they were warming up their computers, work related ? & how they are heroes has reached the nauseating stage for many around here. It's a constant parade of memorials & feel good for the cops routines that just goes on & on. But the cold bare facts are: they have a guild that protects all their brothers & sisters in the face of some fairly bad actions on their part, they are well compensated for the thought they might have to lay their life on the line (question being - is a first responder's life worth any more than someone in the private sector killed while at work, according to our laws, apparently so, their widow's become wealthy overnight). It's a faily routine thing around here to find that many of the 1st responders are more prone to doing despicable things than the general populace.

So the emotional stuff doesn't get it with me, at least not the employment related stuff.


How about because it's the right thing to do. What is the use of having a'nation' if we don't help each other? Those folks would have pulled you out of that rubble and not asked you for even a thank you in return. Why would you NOT want to help them now? Sorry I don't see any logic in your argument, Let alone moral conscience.

Please read the post above your quoted message - as this unfolds the facts seem to point out the solidity of the NO voters position :eek:. As I was once told by a fellow elected official, Morals may be good, but they are very hard to legislate :).

But aren't you the guy who talks about irresponsible spending? That's what this little piece of legislation is!!!!!!!!!!!!

dnf777
12-22-2010, 09:52 AM
Well, I think we've reached a stalemate, Marvin. I believe I did answer your question, but if you don't think so, lets just leave it be.

I know you love this country, and please know that I do too.

Have a Merry Christmas.....and remember we're all on the same side where it counts.

Edit: stepped on my own pet peeve!

Steve Hester
12-22-2010, 10:26 AM
The shame of this whole situation is that the legislators, BOTH Democrats and Republicans, have squandered the taxpayers money for so long and for such huge amounts, that we can't find the money to take care of our own because it's all been wasted on wars, foreign aid to other countries, huge abuses of all the handout programs, taking care of ILLEGAL aliens (that's people who are breaking the law by even being in our country), ridiculous tax cuts, extending unemployment forever, etc, etc, etc....

My point is that so much money is wasted by both parties, depending on what spending they think will get them re-elected, there is no money left for things that maybe should be taken care of by the government. You can all argue until the country falls apart about whether it's the Democrats' or the Republicans' fault, but it is BOTH. America has become a country of entitlements, where some people who can yell the loudest expect the government to take care of them, and the Congress and President do it so they can get re-elected. Pork is no longer "the other white meat", but is now "the legal way to steal from American taxpayers." Government has become way too big, and the pendulum has swung way too far to the side of spending our way into bankruptcy through the "if it feels good, do it" and the "if it will get me votes to get re-elected, do it" programs. If our legislators don't get serious about America's financial health, our country won't even be a significant factor on the world stage in the future. We won't be the world superpower, we won't be the land of opportunity, the dollar will no longer be the world accepted currency, and we sure as hell won't be able to save the world because we won't even have the money to buy fuel for the ships and airplanes to send the help to anyone.

dnf777
12-22-2010, 10:33 AM
But aren't you the guy who talks about irresponsible spending? That's what this little piece of legislation is!!!!!!!!!!!!

I profoundly disagree! But that's ok.

Hey, we can shut down the Afghanistan operations from now until New Years, and give the troops a Christmas vacation. The money we save will pay for the program.

I admit, there is a HUGE emotional component to my position. Maybe if we're a Christian Nation, as someone suggested on another thread, that's is ok. I can't look at that famous picture of the firefighter carrying the little child from the rubble, and not tear up, and feel they deserve to be taken care of for the effects they suffer from those days. We haven't really even discussed the mental scars and PTSD many undoubtedly suffer.

duckheads
12-22-2010, 10:35 AM
Why is this bill named after a person who died from drugs and not from 911? You bleeding hearts make it sound like these people are not getting their medicals bills paid. The trail lawyers are the only ones that will make out on this because it basically sets up a fund for future claims. We have already paid out a lot of money to most if not all of the victims or their families. Also, like usual, there are no specific guidelines to be followed. No protocal to screen the claims. Money will end up going not to the intended recipients but to people trying to play the system!!!!!!!!! And of course the trail lawyers. Ah maybe that's why the dems are trying push this through before they are thrown out on their butts! Another pay off as the door hits them in the arse!

depittydawg
12-22-2010, 10:37 AM
The shame of this whole situation is that the legislators, BOTH Democrats and Republicans, have squandered the taxpayers money for so long and for such huge amounts, that we can't find the money to take care of our own because it's all been wasted on wars, foreign aid to other countries, huge abuses of all the handout programs, taking care of ILLEGAL aliens (that's people who are breaking the law by even being in our country), ridiculous tax cuts, extending unemployment forever, etc, etc, etc....

My point is that so much money is wasted by both parties, depending on what spending they think will get them re-elected, there is no money left for things that maybe should be taken care of by the government. You can all argue until the country falls apart about whether it's the Democrats' or the Republicans' fault, but it is BOTH. America has become a country of entitlements, where some people who can yell the loudest expect the government to take care of them, and the Congress and President do it so they can get re-elected. Pork is no longer "the other white meat", but is now "the legal way to steal from American taxpayers." Government has become way too big, and the pendulum has swung way too far to the side of spending our way into bankruptcy through the "if it feels good, do it" and the "if it will get me votes to get re-elected, do it" programs. If our legislators don't get serious about America's financial health, our country won't even be a significant factor on the world stage in the future. We won't be the world superpower, we won't be the land of opportunity, the dollar will no longer be the world accepted currency, and we sure as hell won't be able to save the world because we won't even have the money to buy fuel for the ships and airplanes to send the help to anyone.

Bingo! Good point.

depittydawg
12-22-2010, 10:38 AM
I speak for myself - create my own sound bites - & believe I am like many self reliant citizens of this country. Though I have listened to many long winded dissertations on how I am wrong :).

So here goes, as long as you refuse to answer. Don't you have any canned sound bites besides waving a flag. 1st &foremost, Charly Schumer, Reid's main attack dog, has his name on the bill. If one supports the bill, they are not interested in keeping spending down as professed - if one does not support the bill, they are hard hearted. I personally consider it an easy call, this is a NY issue, either the city or the state should pick up the tab. There have already been countless victim's funds, legislation passed to ease the pain, no income tax on disability bennies, the list just goes on. There comes a point in time that enough is enough, apparently the city/state has decided in some circumstances these folks are no longer eligible for work &/or additional benefits. Why should the US taxpayer foot the bill for anything additional?

While this is not on subject, it is similar. A little over a year ago 4 officers were shot to death in a coffee shop prior to going on shift. The spin on how they were warming up their computers, work related ? & how they are heroes has reached the nauseating stage for many around here. It's a constant parade of memorials & feel good for the cops routines that just goes on & on. But the cold bare facts are: they have a guild that protects all their brothers & sisters in the face of some fairly bad actions on their part, they are well compensated for the thought they might have to lay their life on the line (question being - is a first responder's life worth any more than someone in the private sector killed while at work, according to our laws, apparently so, their widow's become wealthy overnight). It's a faily routine thing around here to find that many of the 1st responders are more prone to doing despicable things than the general populace.

So the emotional stuff doesn't get it with me, at least not the employment related stuff.



Please read the post above your quoted message - as this unfolds the facts seem to point out the solidity of the NO voters position :eek:. As I was once told by a fellow elected official, Morals may be good, but they are very hard to legislate :).

But aren't you the guy who talks about irresponsible spending? That's what this little piece of legislation is!!!!!!!!!!!!

One thought for you Marvin, the Terrorists didn't attack New York on 9-11, they attacked the United States of America. To try and say only 'New Yorkers" have a financial responsibility towards those who responded doesn't seem right to me. Just saying. Merry Christmas :)

road kill
12-22-2010, 10:43 AM
One thought for you Marvin, the Muslim Terrorists didn't attack New York on 9-11, they attacked the United States of America. To try and say only 'New Yorkers" have a financial responsibility towards those who responded doesn't seem right to me. Just saying. Merry Christmas :)

Fixed.
It's good to hear a "middle of the road independent" admit it.


RK

Roger Perry
12-22-2010, 11:03 AM
I don't know. Why was any federal aid sent to the PacNW when Mt. St.Helens erupted? It was a local event.

Odd. Terrorists hit America. Kill 3000 from all 50 states, disrupt national and global economies, every flight in the US grounded for 3 days (except Saudis fleeing the country by executive order) people from all over responded during crisis, the President of the United States stood on the rubble with a bullhorn, arm in arm with first responders.....and you call it a NY thing?

But you have no problem with a multi-trillion dollar war that we are still engaged in? Gee, that's a pretty big commitment from two presidents for just a NY thing!

Wow, if you're just pullin' my leg, I fell for it. (giving you an out here)

You ARE kidding, right?

Say, weren't those Saudis that the Bush administration flew out of the U.S. of the Muslim religion???????????

Roger Perry
12-22-2010, 11:09 AM
Mt St Helens is on federal property, though we are not discussing that event, it would also be one where the aid if I had a vote would have been miserly. Those folks chose to live there, geologic events happen!!!!!!



I have not forgotten the fact, though some on this forum have, that 3,000 innocent people were killed. I also have not forgotten their country of origin. As for GWB & the bullhorn, it was the only way someone of his class could rally the country. I am most thankful it was not algore or one of the other incompetents foisted off on the country as progressives.



NO, I am not kidding!!!!!!!!!! I am not happy with the war & the prosecution of same, but do believe we need to be there, but in a different manner. I am not happy with the open checkbook philosophy started by GWB & continued by BHO, & believe there to have been a better way. But it shows what a joke our public agencies: CIA, State Dept, etc. have become with the 70% rate of progressives in their employ.

Now for the 3rd time - what are your ideas, justify why you believe I should pay for 1 0unce of HC for an employee of a state that is basically bankrupt. They hired the employee, set the terms & conditions, I had no input, why would you consider me remotely responsible for what they do???????????????

Al Gore probably would not have ignored and taken it serious that CIA reports in August 2001 of inpending attacks by airplanes were iminent.

Roger Perry
12-22-2010, 11:12 AM
Wipe the drool off of your chin, you blithering idiot. Yours is not the only opinion or the correct opinion, you sanctimonious a$$hole.

There you go resorting to name calling again just like the righies do every time when confronted.:(

Roger Perry
12-22-2010, 11:23 AM
Mt St Helens is on federal property, though we are not discussing that event, it would also be one where the aid if I had a vote would have been miserly. Those folks chose to live there, geologic events happen!!!!!!



I have not forgotten the fact, though some on this forum have, that 3,000 innocent people were killed. I also have not forgotten their country of origin. As for GWB & the bullhorn, it was the only way someone of his class could rally the country. I am most thankful it was not algore or one of the other incompetents foisted off on the country as progressives.



NO, I am not kidding!!!!!!!!!! I am not happy with the war & the prosecution of same, but do believe we need to be there, but in a different manner. I am not happy with the open checkbook philosophy started by GWB & continued by BHO, & believe there to have been a better way. But it shows what a joke our public agencies: CIA, State Dept, etc. have become with the 70% rate of progressives in their employ.

Now for the 3rd time - what are your ideas, justify why you believe I should pay for 1 0unce of HC for an employee of a state that is basically bankrupt. They hired the employee, set the terms & conditions, I had no input, why would you consider me remotely responsible for what they do???????????????

What about people that live in other states that are affected by hurricanes? Do they not receive Federal Aid FEMA??????????? Should we not help them because they chose to live where they live??????????Why should someone from say South Dakoda contribute any money for hurricane aid?????? How about people from California who are now suffering from many inches of rain should we in Florida not approve of any Federal Aid to them just because it is not raining here????

Roger Perry
12-22-2010, 11:44 AM
As it currently stands, it needs 6-7 billion dollars. That's two weeks in Afghanistan. We, as patriotic Americans who support our first responders can't come up with this? I mean, we hammered out a compromise on a 800 billion tax break for the rich, and benefits for the unemployed.......we can't come up with less than 1/100th of that for our heroes who are NOT rich and NOT unemployed? Where was the delay while we worked out "details" about tax breaks for those already getting loopholes, etc?

I'm not sure who was quoted, but surely they are not referring to a GOP congress when they say "fiscal concerns are paramount"??? Its Christmas time, not April fool's Day!

Hey, I know why don't we find the missing money that was sent to Iraq and use that money to help the first responders we would even have some money left over.:shock:


$12 BILLION IN IRAQ AID MISSING
Bush Administration OK�d Biggest Theft of Taxpayer Money in History
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/iraq_aid_missing.html

ducknwork
12-22-2010, 11:58 AM
Al Gore probably would not have ignored and taken it serious that CIA reports in August 2001 of inpending attacks by airplanes were iminent.

What makes you think that? Or are you just spouting off at the mouth again?

Roger Perry
12-22-2010, 12:00 PM
What makes you think that? Or are you just spouting off at the mouth again?

Obviously Dumbya did not take it seriously. He spent the month of August 2001 on vacation and did not even look into the possibility of an attack when warned about it.;-)

road kill
12-22-2010, 12:04 PM
Obviously Dumbya did not take it seriously. He spent the month of August 2001 on vacation and did not even look into the possibility of an attack when warned about it.;-)

"There you go, resorting to name calling.....":rolleyes:


RK

ducknwork
12-22-2010, 12:09 PM
Obviously Dumbya did not take it seriously. He spent the month of August 2001 on vacation and did not even look into the possibility of an attack when warned about it.;-)

You didn't answer the question. I'm not surprised however...

What makes you think that Gore would have done anything differently?

Roger Perry
12-22-2010, 12:21 PM
You didn't answer the question. I'm not surprised however...

What makes you think that Gore would have done anything differently?

We will never know for sure will we? but to answer your question of what I think Gore would have done differently:
A Gore Presidency would not have continued reading "My Pet Goat", when advised of a national crises or attack. A Gore Presidency would have attacked those responsible for the 9/11 attack and left Iraq alone. Our concentration would have focus on Al Quida in Afghanistan; and perhaps prevailed without the lingering 7 years of wasted revenues, causing a severe negative impact on our nations economy.

Does that answer your question to your satisfaction?????????????????????

Buzz
12-22-2010, 12:22 PM
What makes you think that Gore would have done anything differently?


Why shouldn't Roger believe that he would have done things differently? Obviously conservatives think so. At least I've heard many of them say, thank God that Bush was president when 9-11 happened instead of Gore.

So, what makes them think he would have done anything differently?

ducknwork
12-22-2010, 12:27 PM
We will never know for sure will we? but to answer your question of what I think Gore would have done differently:
A Gore Presidency would not have continued reading "My Pet Goat", when advised of a national crises or attack. A Gore Presidency would have attacked those responsible for the 9/11 attack and left Iraq alone. Our concentration would have focus on Al Quida in Afghanistan; and perhaps prevailed without the lingering 7 years of wasted revenues, causing a severe negative impact on our nations economy.

Does that answer your question?????????????????????

It's nice to know that you know all those things to be fact.:rolleyes:

ducknwork
12-22-2010, 12:28 PM
At least I've heard many of them say, thank God that Bush was president when 9-11 happened instead of Gore.

So, what makes them think he would have done anything differently?

Beats me. You should ask them...I've never said that.

Roger Perry
12-22-2010, 12:28 PM
"There you go, resorting to name calling.....":rolleyes:


RK

At least I am not calling anyone that frequents this site names because I don't agree with their beliefs. When others here stop referring President Obama as Obongo or other names I will gladly stop referring to W as Dumbya.

road kill
12-22-2010, 12:30 PM
At least I am not calling anyone that frequents this site names because I don't agree with their beliefs. When others here stop referring President Obama as Obongo or other names I will gladly stop referring to W as Dumbya.


HHhhehEEeeEEEeSSssSstTttTtAaaAaarRrRrRtttTTttTTEEe eEEDdDDdIIiiiITttTTt!!!!!:cry:


OK Roger, OK.:rolleyes:


RK

Cody Covey
12-22-2010, 12:39 PM
At least I am not calling anyone that frequents this site names because I don't agree with their beliefs. When others here stop referring President Obama as Obongo or other names I will gladly stop referring to W as Dumbya.

At least you can be mature and not stoop to their level.

road kill
12-22-2010, 12:39 PM
At least you can be mature and not stoop to their level.


No, he can't.


RK

Roger Perry
12-22-2010, 12:39 PM
HHhhehEEeeEEEeSSssSstTttTtAaaAaarRrRrRtttTTttTTEEe eEEDdDDdIIiiiITttTTt!!!!!:cry:


OK Roger, OK.:rolleyes:


RK

That seems to be your response quite often;-)

Roger Perry
12-22-2010, 12:42 PM
It's nice to know that you know all those things to be fact.:rolleyes:

I never stated that to be a fact, you asked me what I thought would be different under Gore and I told you what I thought would be different

road kill
12-22-2010, 12:42 PM
That seems to be your response quite often;-)

Only when you use someone elses poor behaior to excuse yours.
And like you said, it happens quite often..:rolleyes:


RK

Roger Perry
12-22-2010, 12:50 PM
Only when you use someone elses poor behaior to excuse yours.
And like you said, it happens quite often..:rolleyes:


RK

Then I would like to see you step up to the plate when your righties here refer to Obama when called anything but his birth name not just when your side is affected. EH?

road kill
12-22-2010, 01:14 PM
Then I would like to see you step up to the plate when your righties here refer to Obama when called anything but his birth name not just when your side is affected. EH?
You haven't been paying attention have you??

Rhetorical question............

RK

mjh345
12-22-2010, 01:25 PM
"There you go, resorting to name calling.....":rolleyes:


RK

Says the man who only yesterday called me an "ass klown"
It would appear that whenever the facts don't support your position that you get hung up on name calling
Do you have anything constructive to say about Rogers post, and the fact that Bush was on vacation and failed to act on intelligence made known to him, thereby failing to protect our country from the 9-11 attacks?

duckheads
12-22-2010, 01:28 PM
Why is this bill named after a person who died from drugs and not from 911? You bleeding hearts make it sound like these people are not getting their medicals bills paid. The trail lawyers are the only ones that will make out on this because it basically sets up a fund for future claims. We have already paid out a lot of money to most if not all of the victims or their families. Also, like usual, there are no specific guidelines to be followed. No protocal to screen the claims. Money will end up going not to the intended recipients but to people trying to play the system!!!!!!!!! And of course the trail lawyers. Ah maybe that's why the dems are trying push this through before they are thrown out on their butts! Another pay off as the door hits them in the arse!

Anyone, Anyone? Bueller, Beuller?

Roger Perry
12-22-2010, 01:32 PM
Deal reached on 9/11 health bill

From NBC's Kelly O'Donnell and Carrie Dann
A deal has been reached to pave the way for Senate passage of a health bill to aid 9/11 first responders, according to a source close to the negotiations.
Some GOP senators, led by Tom Coburn, R-Okla., had been blocking quick passage of the bill over objections about its cost and the process by which the legislation passed through Congress.
But after negotiations led by New York Sens. Chuck Schumer and Kirsten Gillibrand, the impasse appears to have been broken, possibly setting up the last legislative action of the 111th Congress this afternoon.
It's now expected that no objections will be raised that could slow down or kill passage.
The bill must be approved by the House (which has remained in session in hopes of the chance to approve the measure) before going to the president for signing.
** UPDATE ** House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said on MSNBC that he has spoken to Schumer about the deal. "I'm told, yes, there is an agreement," he said.
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/12/22/5696618-deal-reached-on-911-health-bill-

Roger Perry
12-22-2010, 02:15 PM
Says the man who only yesterday called me an "ass klown"
It would appear that whenever the facts don't support your position that you get hung up on name calling
Do you have anything constructive to say about Rogers post, and the fact that Bush was on vacation and failed to act on intelligence made known to him, thereby failing to protect our country from the 9-11 attacks?

Things seem to be pretty quiet eh RK?

BonMallari
12-22-2010, 02:55 PM
looks like they made a "deal"....so it wasnt about the bill, it was about the provisions in the bill


The agreement would reduce the billís cost from $6.2 billion to $4.2 billion to treat workers' injuries and illnesses resulting from exposure to toxic dust and debris at Ground Zero. A portion of the funds would go toward reopening the September 11th Victim Compensation Fund.

The deal also would limit access to the health treatment program and compensation fund to five years per person, down from the 10 years permitted in the House-passed bill, and caps attorneys' fees at 10 percent of a total award.

road kill
12-22-2010, 04:16 PM
Says the man who only yesterday called me an "ass klown"
It would appear that whenever the facts don't support your position that you get hung up on name calling
Do you have anything constructive to say about Rogers post, and the fact that Bush was on vacation and failed to act on intelligence made known to him, thereby failing to protect our country from the 9-11 attacks?



You only post mean stuff of a personal nature.

Even Roger's posts are brighter than yours.

And I think there are a lot of people here that might step up and mention I called quite a few people out for making fun of and mocking Obama's name.
Can I get a witness here??

Of course you wouldn't, don't suit your purposes.

Hence the name.
I have read your posts, and if I ever met you, I would shake your hand and tell you exactly what I posted.


RK

road kill
12-22-2010, 04:17 PM
Things seem to be pretty quiet eh RK?

Eh, Roger, do the nurses bring the medication soon??



RK

BonMallari
12-22-2010, 04:41 PM
Eh, Roger, do the nurses bring the medication soon??



RK

maybe he has Nurse Mildred Ratched doling out the meds...:p:p


refer to the movie " One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest"

dnf777
12-22-2010, 04:49 PM
Say, weren't those Saudis that the Bush administration flew out of the U.S. of the Muslim religion???????????

Yes, and some had the surname of "bin Laden"!! Even senators could not get a flight home to their districts, but Saudi royals, courtesy of the commander in chief, were given permission to shuttle personnel from their ski resorts and other areas to Andrews, then out of the country, without even being questioned.

dnf777
12-22-2010, 04:54 PM
Thank God the congress is finally getting their butts in gear, ESPECIALLY with the first responder's health benefits.

Thank you to all the republicans who sided with patriotism and decency, and a sense of gratitude towards these heroes, and left McConnell and his cronies mumbling something incoherent.

I have renewed hope for this congress! I hear START passed also, but haven't read the details.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Marvin S
12-22-2010, 05:20 PM
The bill is named for someone who died from substance drug abuse, as certified by the medical examiner. So 4.2 bil is frittered away :( . Looks like more cleanup is required!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dnf777
12-22-2010, 05:27 PM
The bill is named for someone who died from substance drug abuse, as certified by the medical examiner. So 4.2 bil is frittered away :( . Looks like more cleanup is required!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are also many veterans who die of substance abuse. That is wrong, and I don't make excuses, but I will cut them some slack after what many have seen and been through.

I don't consider money spent to help the first responders frittered away at all. JMO

Buzz
12-22-2010, 05:33 PM
It seems like this drug thing is in dispute with one of three medical examiners making that accusation, the NYC Chief examiner. I don't suppose NYC has any interest in saying his illness was unrelated to his work at the WTC. But if you prefer to slander a guy based on one of three opinions, have at it. In view of your hatred of government employees and union government employees in particular, I am not surprised! I guess it's just another case of liberals paying homage to the scum of society.


The causes of Zadroga's death are under dispute.[5] Gerard Breton, a pathologist of the Ocean County, New Jersey medical examiner's office, conducted an autopsy in April 2006, and he reported, "It is felt with a reasonable degree of medical certainty that the cause of death in this case was directly related to the 9/11 incident."[2] This attribution made Zadroga, 34-years-old at the time of his death, the first 9/11 responder whose death was directly linked with toxic Ground Zero substances.[1] Breton's autopsy found what he described as "unidentified foreign materials" in Zadroga's lungs,[6] which were identified by the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology in Washington, D.C. as talc, cellulose, calcium phosphate, and methacrylate plastic;[4] However, the examination did not compare the particles found in his lungs with actual dust from the World Trade Center site.[6]
The New York City Medical Examiners Office asserted in October 2007 that Zadroga's death was not related to his time at Ground Zero, with Chief Medical Examiner Charles Hirsch and another medical examiner signing a statement that "It is our unequivocal opinion, with certainty beyond doubt, that the foreign material in your son’s lungs did not get there as the result of inhaling dust at the World Trade Center or elsewhere".[6] Hirsch concluded that Zadroga died from self-injection of ground drugs, with Hirsch finding severe scarring in his lungs that he determined was caused by cellulose and talc granulomas and stating (through a spokesperson) that "The lung disease he had was a consequence of injecting prescription drugs".[7] Officials from the Chief Medical Examiner's office met with the Zadroga family to present his findings.[8]
In response to the City Medical Examiner's autopsy results, Mayor of New York City Michael Bloomberg stated "We wanted to have a hero, and there are plenty of heroes, it’s just in this case, science says this was not a hero" at remarks made after receiving an award from the Harvard School of Public Health, but backed away from his earlier characterization at a news conferences stating that "This was a great N.Y.P.D. officer who dedicated himself — put his life in harm’s way hundreds of times during his career — and you can use your own definition."[9]
A third opinion obtained by Zadroga's family later that month from Dr. Michael Baden, chief forensic pathologist of the New York State Police (and former New York City Medical Examiner), backed the original claim of WTC dust responsibility, citing the presence of glass fibers in Zadroga's lungs that could not be related to injecting drugs. James' father, Joseph, said that the medical examiner reported no "track marks on his arms or body" and that his son had taken anti-anxiety medications and painkillers including OxyContin, but had never ground up and injected the drugs.[7]

Marvin S
12-22-2010, 05:36 PM
I don't consider money spent to help the first responders frittered away at all. JMWO

fixed it for ya :) !!!!

Marvin S
12-22-2010, 05:44 PM
In view of your hatred of government employees and union government employees in particular,

Excuse me, since when does pointing out indefensible statements rise to the level of hatred?

Steve Hester
12-22-2010, 05:57 PM
Al Gore probably would not have ignored and taken it serious that CIA reports in August 2001 of inpending attacks by airplanes were iminent.

Nah, Al would have said the reports were due to global warming.....

Buzz
12-22-2010, 06:54 PM
Excuse me, since when does pointing out indefensible statements rise to the level of hatred?

You're right, hate is too strong a term.

cotts135
12-23-2010, 06:55 AM
I speak for myself - create my own sound bites - & believe I am like many self reliant citizens of this country. Though I have listened to many long winded dissertations on how I am wrong :).

So here goes, as long as you refuse to answer. Don't you have any canned sound bites besides waving a flag. 1st &foremost, Charly Schumer, Reid's main attack dog, has his name on the bill. If one supports the bill, they are not interested in keeping spending down as professed - if one does not support the bill, they are hard hearted. I personally consider it an easy call, this is a NY issue, either the city or the state should pick up the tab. There have already been countless victim's funds, legislation passed to ease the pain, no income tax on disability bennies, the list just goes on. There comes a point in time that enough is enough, apparently the city/state has decided in some circumstances these folks are no longer eligible for work &/or additional benefits. Why should the US taxpayer foot the bill for anything additional?




While this is not on subject, it is similar. A little over a year ago 4 officers were shot to death in a coffee shop prior to going on shift. The spin on how they were warming up their computers, work related ? & how they are heroes has reached the nauseating stage for many around here. It's a constant parade of memorials & feel good for the cops routines that just goes on & on. But the cold bare facts are: they have a guild that protects all their brothers & sisters in the face of some fairly bad actions on their part, they are well compensated for the thought they might have to lay their life on the line (question being - is a first responder's life worth any more than someone in the private sector killed while at work, according to our laws, apparently so, their widow's become wealthy overnight). It's a faily routine thing around here to find that many of the 1st responders are more prone to doing despicable things than the general populace.

So the emotional stuff doesn't get it with me, at least not the employment related stuff.



Please read the post above your quoted message - as this unfolds the facts seem to point out the solidity of the NO voters position :eek:. As I was once told by a fellow elected official, Morals may be good, but they are very hard to legislate :).

But aren't you the guy who talks about irresponsible spending? That's what this little piece of legislation is!!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe a strong argument for compensation to workers involved in the cleanup, is that the Federal Government at the time told them that the air quality was safe.

NY Daily News December 1, 2007


Christie Whitman lied about air quality after the 9/11 attacks and should have to pay for medical monitoring and a cleanup, lawyers for lower Manhattan residents told an appeals court Monday.

The lawyers urged a three-judge panel of the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals to uphold a lower court decision declaring the former head of the Environmental Protection Agency can be held personally responsible for her deceptive comments.

Five days after the attacks, Whitman told reporters, "The good news continues to be that air samples we have taken have all been at levels that cause no concern."

In their class-action suit, residents, workers and students living around Ground Zero say they relied on Whitman's comments in deciding whether to return to an area coated with dust from the twin towers' collapse.

"If she had not said this, they probably would have made their own decision," Rep. Jerrold Nadler (D-Manhattan) said after the hearing. "She was telling people it was safe when she knew damn well it wasn't."

Manhattan Federal Court Judge Deborah Batts suggested in a February 2006 ruling that Whitman's comments were irresponsible.

A Justice Department lawyer warned the appeals panel that if Whitman can be held personally responsible, public officials will remain mum after future disasters.

"The consequence would be a default to silence," lawyer Alisa Klein said. "If you speak, you will be potentially held liable. Then the clear message for government officials is to say nothing."



Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/12/11/2007-12-11_christie_whitman_lied_about_ground_zero_.html#i xzz18w1GqZJJ

Obviously not all the workers were from NY and what has been stated already is that it wasn't just NY attacked it was this country.

Julie R.
12-23-2010, 08:51 AM
I'm coming late to this party but the things that bothers me about this bill are many. First and foremost: Do all state and local fire and rescue employees sign up for their jobs with the understanding that they will ONLY rescue/help citizens of their locale? Just let all other Americans perish? And are they also not supposed to respond to international terrorism when it happens on their turf? I think it's insulting to insinuate this is the case. These people were heros, but they were doing their jobs. Second: I do believe any uncompensated medical bills should be provided for, but don't they have insurance for that? And third: What about the millions sent in for 9/11 victims? This is an instance where the government can and should get a pass and let private enterprise and charity do its thing.

road kill
12-23-2010, 09:01 AM
I'm coming late to this party but the things that bothers me about this bill are many. First and foremost: Do all state and local fire and rescue employees sign up for their jobs with the understanding that they will ONLY rescue/help citizens of their locale? Just let all other Americans perish? And are they also not supposed to respond to international terrorism when it happens on their turf? I think it's insulting to insinuate this is the case. These people were heros, but they were doing their jobs. Second: I do believe any uncompensated medical bills should be provided for, but don't they have insurance for that? And third: What about the millions sent in for 9/11 victims? This is an instance where the government can and should get a pass and let private enterprise and charity do its thing.


Great point, over 100 FF's & PO's from WI went to ground zero to assist.
No vested interest in NYC.



RK

dnf777
12-23-2010, 10:10 AM
I'm coming late to this party but the things that bothers me about this bill are many. First and foremost: Do all state and local fire and rescue employees sign up for their jobs with the understanding that they will ONLY rescue/help citizens of their locale? Just let all other Americans perish? And are they also not supposed to respond to international terrorism when it happens on their turf? I think it's insulting to insinuate this is the case. These people were heros, but they were doing their jobs. Second: I do believe any uncompensated medical bills should be provided for, but don't they have insurance for that? And third: What about the millions sent in for 9/11 victims? This is an instance where the government can and should get a pass and let private enterprise and charity do its thing.

Julie,
Some of the first responders have been released from their jobs, with a cessation or dimunition of coverage for "non-job related" reasons, which are in fact, sequelae of their exosure.

Many do have coverage, but many don't. Even those with coverage have racked up thousands in co-pays and non-covered therapies, which add up for someone on a fireman's salary.

No doubt that were humans are involved (and lawyers) there will be abuses, but overall, this was the right thing to do IMO. Maybe I'm all alone, but I can sleep at night.

mjh345
12-23-2010, 11:16 AM
Julie,
Some of the first responders have been released from their jobs, with a cessation or dimunition of coverage for "non-job related" reasons, which are in fact, sequelae of their exosure.

Many do have coverage, but many don't. Even those with coverage have racked up thousands in co-pays and non-covered therapies, which add up for someone on a fireman's salary.

No doubt that were humans are involved (and lawyers) there will be abuses, but overall, this was the right thing to do IMO. Maybe I'm all alone, but I can sleep at night.

Dave you have made some really good points in this thread.
Do I think the first responders deserve this? ABSOLUTELY!!
Do I think we can afford it? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!

The deficit is out of control, and until it get under control we have to say NO to all new expenditures, as well as cut and reduce old expenditures.
Additionally as much as I don't want to pay any new taxes, we need to say NO to the "TEMPORARY" Bush tax cuts.

They were approved as a temporary relief or payback to us due to the fact that we had SURPLU$$ES. We no longer have SURPLU$$ES.
I don't want to pay anymore taxes however my generation is the one that is responsible for the idiots in Washington that ran up these debts, so my generation should be responsible for their irresponsibility.

Besides if we get rid of the deficit the savings in interest would dwarf what we would get by retaining the "TEMPORARY" tax cuts

road kill
12-23-2010, 11:20 AM
Dave you have made some really good points in this thread.
Do I think the first responders deserve this? ABSOLUTELY!!
Do I think we can afford it? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!

The deficit is out of control, and until it get under control we have to say NO to all new expenditures, as well as cut and reduce old expenditures.
Additionally as much as I don't want to pay any new taxes, we need to say NO to the "TEMPORARY" Bush tax cuts.

They were approved as a temporary relief or payback to us due to the fact that we had SURPLU$$ES. We no longer have SURPLU$$ES.
I don't want to pay anymore taxes however my generation is the one that is responsible for the idiots in Washington that ran up these debts, so my generation should be responsible for their irresponsibility.

Besides if we get rid of the deficit the savings in interest would dwarf what we would get by retaining the "TEMPORARY" tax cuts


Or, we could stop spending money we don't have for crap we don't need.

NO....not FF's or PO's.

How about Hi-Speed rail and the likes.
Just not a prioroty right now.
How about a freeze on Federal hiring?
NO....not Military or Postal workers, office, clerical and administrators.

Just a thought.


RK

Roger Perry
12-23-2010, 11:40 AM
Or, we could stop spending money we don't have for crap we don't need.

NO....not FF's or PO's.

How about Hi-Speed rail and the likes.
Just not a prioroty right now.
How about a freeze on Federal hiring?
NO....not Military or Postal workers, office, clerical and administrators.

Just a thought.


RK

Why not just do away with the Postal service. It is losing money hand over fist.

mjh345
12-23-2010, 11:49 AM
How about Hi-Speed rail and the likes.
Just not a prioroty right now.

RK
Did you see Gov Christy's comments on the high speed rail proposed between N. Jersey & New York?

He said it is a great idea and would create lots of jobs etc; but we simply can't afford it now

We need more pragmatic leadership in these times. Better yet we needed it previosly and we wouldn't be in the crises we are now in.

Pay as you go regards

road kill
12-23-2010, 11:57 AM
Did you see Gov Christy's comments on the high speed rail proposed between N. Jersey & New York?

He said it is a great idea and would create lots of jobs etc; but we simply can't afford it now

We need more pragmatic leadership in these times. Better yet we needed it previosly and we wouldn't be in the crises we are now in.

Pay as you go regards
Kinda what I am trying to say.
Not never, just not now.


RK

Roger Perry
12-23-2010, 12:51 PM
Did you see Gov Christy's comments on the high speed rail proposed between N. Jersey & New York?

He said it is a great idea and would create lots of jobs etc; but we simply can't afford it now

We need more pragmatic leadership in these times. Better yet we needed it previosly and we wouldn't be in the crises we are now in.

Pay as you go regards

Say, isn't New Jersey right next to New York? Why would they need a high speed rail system to go a few miles? By the time it got up to full speed it would have to slow down.:rolleyes:

Uncle Bill
12-23-2010, 05:19 PM
As it currently stands, it needs 6-7 billion dollars. That's two weeks in Afghanistan. We, as patriotic Americans who support our first responders can't come up with this? I mean, we hammered out a compromise on a 800 billion tax break for the rich, and benefits for the unemployed.......we can't come up with less than 1/100th of that for our heroes who are NOT rich and NOT unemployed? Where was the delay while we worked out "details" about tax breaks for those already getting loopholes, etc?

I'm not sure who was quoted, but surely they are not referring to a GOP congress when they say "fiscal concerns are paramount"??? Its Christmas time, not April fool's Day!


Now that most of the graft that was to go to the money-grubbing lawyers has been capped, and the total bill has been reduced to around 4 billion, aren't you the least bit chagrined? Probably not, since I've never found any of you class envy types to have any shame.

Whenever someone as sleazy as Chuck Schumer is involved, don't tell me there isn't a chance the bureaucrats won't be doling out these tax-payer's funds to their cronies as frequently as they can. Especially when it's for a truely needy cause, that's when we must be the most diligent in the handling of this form of 'help'.

So please stop the phoney charitable act, and hammering those legislators that understand how these huge sums of money being doled out seldom have little to do with the legitimate reason for this multi-billion dollar handout. They have been scammed enough to recognize the wolves in sheep's clothing.

Isn't it time for even you welfare types to realize this nation is dealing with Mother Hubbards cupboard? There ain't no more left. How much more debt are you willing to pile on your unborn grandkids????

UB

dnf777
12-23-2010, 07:27 PM
Now that most of the graft that was to go to the money-grubbing lawyers has been capped, and the total bill has been reduced to around 4 billion, aren't you the least bit chagrined? Probably not, since I've never found any of you class envy types to have any shame.

Whenever someone as sleazy as Chuck Schumer is involved, don't tell me there isn't a chance the bureaucrats won't be doling out these tax-payer's funds to their cronies as frequently as they can. Especially when it's for a truely needy cause, that's when we must be the most diligent in the handling of this form of 'help'.

So please stop the phoney charitable act, and hammering those legislators that understand how these huge sums of money being doled out seldom have little to do with the legitimate reason for this multi-billion dollar handout. They have been scammed enough to recognize the wolves in sheep's clothing.

Isn't it time for even you welfare types to realize this nation is dealing with Mother Hubbards cupboard? There ain't no more left. How much more debt are you willing to pile on your unborn grandkids????

UB

yeah yeah yeah. I'm just glad the republicans pulled their heads out long enough to pass this bill! Go ahead and save face with your spin, I understand. It was a shameful position your leaders took.

Merry Christmas!

road kill
12-23-2010, 08:09 PM
Why not just do away with the Postal service. It is losing money hand over fist.

Yep, and you want those same people to run Healthcare!!!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!:D


RK

Gerry Clinchy
12-23-2010, 10:05 PM
It doesn't seem like such a bad idea to have limited the attorney's fees to 10%.

That means for a $1 million claim, the attorney will collect $100,000 instead of the typical $300,000. If we really want to see the first-responders get the $, that seems reasonable.

dnf777
12-24-2010, 09:57 AM
It doesn't seem like such a bad idea to have limited the attorney's fees to 10%.

That means for a $1 million claim, the attorney will collect $100,000 instead of the typical $300,000. If we really want to see the first-responders get the $, that seems reasonable.

Gerry,
The 30% fee limit for attorneys is a myth. Its whatever a client agrees to in contract. Yes, there are some states that have limits, but that is AFTER expenses, EXCLUDING special fees, court costs, etc...

Given the amount of time between litigation, and the lawyers' cuts, it behooves pateints, doctors, and the public in general to have third party arbitration to settle claims. The truly injured parties get more money, sooner, and the docs pay less, as does the system.

Roger Perry
12-24-2010, 10:48 AM
Yep, and you want those same people to run Healthcare!!!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!:D


RK
Just what part of the biggest lie in 2010 did you not understand:confused:

PolitiFact's Lie of the Year: 'A government takeover of health care'
In the spring of 2009, a Republican strategist settled on a brilliant and powerful attack line for President Barack Obama's ambitious plan to overhaul America's health insurance system. Frank Luntz, a consultant famous for his phraseology, urged GOP leaders to call it a "government takeover."

By the time the health care bill was headed toward passage in early 2010, Obama and congressional Democrats had sanded down their program, dropping the "public option" concept that was derided as too much government intrusion. The law passed in March, with new regulations, but no government-run plan.

But as Republicans smelled serious opportunity in the midterm elections, they didn't let facts get in the way of a great punchline. And few in the press challenged their frequent assertion that under Obama, the government was going to take over the health care industry.

PolitiFact editors and reporters have chosen "government takeover of health care" as the 2010 Lie of the Year. Uttered by dozens of politicians and pundits, it played an important role in shaping public opinion about the health care plan and was a significant factor in the Democrats' shellacking in the November elections.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...r-health-care/

Besides, one of the reasons the post office is losing money is because millions of people are using the internet ** facebook or email to send "letters" to their friends or loved ones + more and more people are paying their bills on line now. The postal service is almost reduced to junk mail and that cannot support the cost of running the postal service.

depittydawg
12-24-2010, 11:19 AM
Why not just do away with the Postal service. It is losing money hand over fist.

I prefer USPS over any of the private carriers. They are much more reliable. Just a few weeks ago I purchased some computer software from Fry's. They sent it Fed Ex. The hapless driver gave it to my dog who left for me shredded in my driveway. Nice job. I'm still trying to get reimbursed by Frys's BTW, even though Fed Ex reimbursed Fry's, they haven't seen the light to make it right for the customer. Never, ever have I had a problem with a USPS delivery.

caryalsobrook
12-24-2010, 12:09 PM
Just what part of the biggest lie in 2010 did you not understand:confused:

PolitiFact's Lie of the Year: 'A government takeover of health care'
In the spring of 2009, a Republican strategist settled on a brilliant and powerful attack line for President Barack Obama's ambitious plan to overhaul America's health insurance system. Frank Luntz, a consultant famous for his phraseology, urged GOP leaders to call it a "government takeover."

By the time the health care bill was headed toward passage in early 2010, Obama and congressional Democrats had sanded down their program, dropping the "public option" concept that was derided as too much government intrusion. The law passed in March, with new regulations, but no government-run plan.

But as Republicans smelled serious opportunity in the midterm elections, they didn't let facts get in the way of a great punchline. And few in the press challenged their frequent assertion that under Obama, the government was going to take over the health care industry.

PolitiFact editors and reporters have chosen "government takeover of health care" as the 2010 Lie of the Year. Uttered by dozens of politicians and pundits, it played an important role in shaping public opinion about the health care plan and was a significant factor in the Democrats' shellacking in the November elections.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...r-health-care/ (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2010/dec/16/lie-year-government-takeover-health-care/)

FACT- President Obama ardently said that everyone would be allowed to keep their current insurance. To date the Dept of Human Services and granted over 120 waivers in order to allow certain companies to continue employees to KEEP their current insurance. What about the companies that don't get such waivers?? And if the Fed. gov. intends to grant waivers to all such companies then why have the regulation in the first place?

FACT- Already at the state level(Mass. to be specific), healthcare providers are REQUIRED to provide care to medicaid patients at a gov. mandated fee regardless if that fee even covers their costs. They have no choice and will lose their license if they don't. This was done under a Republican Gov. so I don't blame just the Democrats.

FACT- 20 states ae sueing the Fed. Gov. due to the huge tax burden placed on the individual states by the Fed. Healthcare Bill.

FACT- Everything the Gov pays for, they control. Tell me anything that the Gov. pays for and doesn't control, I don't know of any.

FACT- 5 years after the Patients Bill of Rights (HIPPA), we still did not know what was required of us as healthcare providers. You ask two different people what we were suposed to do, you got two different answers. I hate to think how long it will take for this monstrosity to shake out.

FACT- Speaker Pelosi stated that we had to pass the bill to find out what was in it. It was probably the smartest thing she ever said and she was correct. If the healthcare bill is anything like HIPPA, it will take 15 years to work out and I wondeer if any business not guaranteed a profit by the Gov. will hire anyone not knowing what their labor costs will be.

FACT- Public option, single payor, socialized healthcare, gov. takeover, it makes no difference what you call it because there is no difference in the long run. You may have a yellow, a chocolate or a black lab, they are still labs.

On a personal note, I had no idea if I would like dentistry as a profession before I went to dental school. I knew that dentists made a good living and I wanted to live where I chose to live, and I wanted to work for the patients that hired me. I had patients that chose to seek treatment somewhere else, their choice, no explanation required. I had a very few patients that I chose not to treat and asked them to go somewhere else, my choice no explanation required. It has been a profession that I loved and was proud of but i see the ethics and quality destroyed by the gov. in the future. Canada was touted as the prototype for the US until people examined and became more familiar with their system. That gave people a warning what to expect if the advocates of such a system was implemented in this country, no matter what you called it (single payor, public option, or socialized healthcare). It REQUIRES all helthcare providers to work for the Gov. it demands that healthcare providers work only for the Gov. It sets the LEVEL of care provided to each individual and leaves the quality of treatment to the provider. And oh yes another fact- people in Canada who can't get the care they want under the system controlled by bureaucrats and can't pay the providers in their country, come to the US and PAY for their care. Not a system I can approve.

I'll let the facts speak for themselves and refrain from calling anyone a liar.

Uncle Bill
12-24-2010, 03:23 PM
I prefer USPS over any of the private carriers. They are much more reliable. Just a few weeks ago I purchased some computer software from Fry's. They sent it Fed Ex. The hapless driver gave it to my dog who left for me shredded in my driveway. Nice job. I'm still trying to get reimbursed by Frys's BTW, even though Fed Ex reimbursed Fry's, they haven't seen the light to make it right for the customer. Never, ever have I had a problem with a USPS delivery.


Why doesn't this surprise me. Ever consider TRAINING your dog? While most of the libs/socialists on RTF have lop-sided views of the way the government should be running this nation, the HUGE majority of them know how to train a retriever to NOT eat what they shouldn't. Other than making a simple PITA of yourself, what IS the reason you post on a 'retriever' BB? You really are a DippityDoDah.:rolleyes:

UB

dnf777
12-24-2010, 03:29 PM
Why doesn't this surprise me. Ever consider TRAINING your dog? While most of the libs/socialists on RTF have lop-sided views of the way the government should be running this nation, the HUGE majority of them know how to train a retriever to NOT eat what they shouldn't. Other than making a simple PITA of yourself, what IS the reason you post on a 'retriever' BB? You really are a DippityDoDah.:rolleyes:

UB

I'm so glad I unblocked you...mainly for the comedic relief!! :D

There was an entire thread on RTF a while back talking about things their dogs ate. Kind of dispells your theory about teaching a lab not to eat things!

Thanks for the laugh!

Not to re-fire an old thread, but my old golden years ago, ate about 250 italian pizzelles my grandmother left on the counter. Now, of course, I know to have all my dogs de-pizzelled by a pro. :D

Uncle Bill
12-24-2010, 03:36 PM
I'm so glad I unblocked you...mainly for the comedic relief!! :D

There was an entire thread on RTF a while back talking about things their dogs ate. Kind of dispells your theory about teaching a lab not to eat things!

Thanks for the laugh!

Not to re-fire an old thread, but my old golden years ago, ate about 250 italian pizzelles my grandmother left on the counter. Now, of course, I know to have all my dogs de-pizzelled by a pro. :D

You are assuming, of course, I had you included among the "huge majority". Aren't you being just a little presumptious? I should have guessed that might have happened by someone that thinks pomposity is a virtue.

UB

dnf777
12-24-2010, 03:46 PM
You are assuming, of course, I had you included among the "huge majority". Aren't you being just a little presumptious? I should have guessed that might have happened by someone that thinks pomposity is a virtue.

UB

Not at all. In fact, since I'm neither a liberal or a socialist, I didn't assume you were including me at all.

I was just responding (between pangs of laughter) that you think you can train a lab not to eat things they're not supposed to!

Have a Merry Christmas!

depittydawg
12-24-2010, 04:56 PM
Why doesn't this surprise me. Ever consider TRAINING your dog? While most of the libs/socialists on RTF have lop-sided views of the way the government should be running this nation, the HUGE majority of them know how to train a retriever to NOT eat what they shouldn't. Other than making a simple PITA of yourself, what IS the reason you post on a 'retriever' BB? You really are a DippityDoDah.:rolleyes:

UB

And you sir, have no manners, no morals, and no since of courtesy. If you said that in front of me, I'd slap your face.

Merry Christmas

road kill
12-24-2010, 05:00 PM
And you sir, have no manners, no morals, and no since of courtesy. If you said that in front of me, I'd slap your face. Merry Christmas

Really???


You done the easy part, you talked about it.......


RK

Uncle Bill
12-24-2010, 06:20 PM
And you sir, have no manners, no morals, and no since of courtesy. If you said that in front of me, I'd slap your face.

Merry Christmas

Trust me, reading your inane posts IS a slap in the face, and should be to any intelligent person that also has no "since of courtesy".

UB

mjh345
12-24-2010, 08:02 PM
Why doesn't this surprise me. Ever consider TRAINING your dog? While most of the libs/socialists on RTF have lop-sided views of the way the government should be running this nation, the HUGE majority of them know how to train a retriever to NOT eat what they shouldn't. Other than making a simple PITA of yourself, what IS the reason you post on a 'retriever' BB? You really are a DippityDoDah.:rolleyes:

UB

Is there ever a time when you aren't hateful? It is Christmas Eve Uncle Bill, take a pill and chase away the grinch.
By the way, I bet if you took a poll the vast majority {Both Libs & Consevs} would say that their lab has at one time or another chewed something they shouldn't have.

Merry Christmas &/or Baah Humbug to you and yours

luvmylabs23139
12-24-2010, 08:14 PM
I bet if you took a poll the vast majority {Both Libs & Consevs} would say that their lab has at one time or another chewed something they shouldn't have.



Actually what stood out to me was that the dog was in the driveway unattended for a period of time. The fed exguy came, delivered the package, left, dog had time (who knows how long) to destroy said package. Heck, the fed-ex guy could have run over the dog.:confused::confused::confused:

JDogger
12-24-2010, 11:27 PM
Why doesn't this surprise me. Ever consider TRAINING your dog? While most of the libs/socialists on RTF have lop-sided views of the way the government should be running this nation, the HUGE majority of them know how to train a retriever to NOT eat what they shouldn't. Other than making a simple PITA of yourself, what IS the reason you post on a 'retriever' BB? You really are a DippityDoDah.:rolleyes:

UB

A Very Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year to you, Mr Spitzer. You seem to be feeling your old self once again. I look forward to seeing you at Region 13 tests again this year...

Hugh, AKA JDogger