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pat addis
12-27-2010, 08:42 AM
i have a question about the new law concerning open gays serving in the military. the first one is what is openly gay? will they be able to take a same sex person to the marine corps dance? can they lounge around in dresses? will they be able to hold hands etc. i don't know so i just thought i'd ask.also the next thing to come out of the courts will be a ruling about doing all these things becouse it would not be fair that they couldn't do it.after all it's aginst the law in prison to have a gay encounter and it still goes on.

road kill
12-27-2010, 08:46 AM
i have a question about the new law concerning open gays serving in the military. the first one is what is openly gay? will they be able to take a same sex person to the marine corps dance? can they lounge around in dresses? will they be able to hold hands etc. i don't know so i just thought i'd ask.also the next thing to come out of the courts will be a ruling about doing all these things becouse it would not be fair that they couldn't do it.after all it's aginst the law in prison to have a gay encounter and it still goes on.

The progressives (they call themselves middle of the road independents) think of the military as a social test tube for their restructuring of morality.:D



RK

ducknwork
12-27-2010, 08:56 AM
Why is it so important to be openly gay in the military? The military is not a place for anyone's sexuality to be flaunted, regardless of orientation. I doubt that just because DADT was repealed soldiers will stand around gawking at the Playgirl centerfold or talking about when the Chippendale's are coming to the Full Moon Saloon openly. It may be legal, but it still won't be accepted or have much participation. So what has changed for gays?

Clay Rogers
12-27-2010, 09:15 AM
Why is it so important to be openly gay in the military? The military is not a place for anyone's sexuality to be flaunted, regardless of orientation. I doubt that just because DADT was repealed soldiers will stand around gawking at the Playgirl centerfold or talking about when the Chippendale's are coming to the Full Moon Saloon openly. It may be legal, but it still won't be accepted or have much participation. So what has changed for gays?

Hopefully, Nothing. The military is not the place for that, plain and simple. But this is just my opinion.

ducknwork
12-27-2010, 09:18 AM
stump,(or anyone else) you were in the military...answer a question for me please because I am too lazy to look it up right now...

Isn't it against some military law for males/females to bunk together in combat (or maybe always)?? It seems like I have heard that at some point in the past...

If it's true, will they have to build seperate living quarters for gays to stay in?

Could be just one of many sticky situations...(no pun intended)

Clay Rogers
12-27-2010, 09:45 AM
stump,(or anyone else) you were in the military...answer a question for me please because I am too lazy to look it up right now...

Isn't it against some military law for males/females to bunk together in combat (or maybe always)?? It seems like I have heard that at some point in the past...

If it's true, will they have to build seperate living quarters for gays to stay in?

Could be just one of many sticky situations...(no pun intended)

Not against the law, but against military standards. And if caught, you could face UCMJ action. We didn't have women in my unit, or any support unit around us when I was in, so we didn't have to worry about that.

That is going to be the problem, in my opinion. When you try to place openly gay men with straight men problems will arise. How many gay guys are going to get the crap kicked out of them in the shower because some straight(and possibly homophobic)guy starts yelling that the gay guy was checking everyone out? Heck, I saw this happen when I was in, to guys that weren't gay(supposedly) and some guy would yell that.

I bet it's gonna get ugly.

Buzz
12-27-2010, 09:52 AM
I'm sure if given another chance at it you'd want to reword this a bit. ;-)

Clay Rogers
12-27-2010, 09:58 AM
I'm sure if given another chance at it you'd want to reword this a bit. ;-)

Dude, I owe you one.

Buzz
12-27-2010, 10:11 AM
Dude, I owe you one.



I just removed the quote. No evidence, LOL!

ducknwork
12-27-2010, 10:18 AM
Not against the law, but against military standards. And if caught, you could face UCMJ action. We didn't have women in my unit, or any support unit around us when I was in, so we didn't have to worry about that.

So what is the difference between a straight woman/straight man bunking together and a gay man bunking with a bunch of straight guys? You would think that they couldn't just send the gays to the women's tent to sleep, so where do they belong?

Rudd
12-27-2010, 10:19 AM
I just removed the quote. No evidence, LOL!

LOL, it was too funny to forget.

Clay Rogers
12-27-2010, 10:22 AM
LOL, it was too funny to forget.

Hey, come on dude! It was just a grammar error.

Clay Rogers
12-27-2010, 10:23 AM
I just removed the quote. No evidence, LOL!


Still, I owe you one. Big time!

Rudd
12-27-2010, 10:28 AM
Hey, come on dude! It was just a grammar error.

LOL, it's amazing what a comma does!

road kill
12-27-2010, 11:28 AM
So what is the difference between a straight woman/straight man bunking together and a gay man bunking with a bunch of straight guys? You would think that they couldn't just send the gays to the women's tent to sleep, so where do they belong?


In the military, the difference is that 1 is illegal and one is now OK!!!:D


RK

dnf777
12-27-2010, 01:02 PM
The progressives (they call themselves middle of the road independents) think of the military as a social test tube for their restructuring of morality.:D



RK

Then I guess almost every other standing army in the world, including some of best in history, besides ours, are also social test tubes.

We're not inventing the wheel here. We're catching up to the rest of the world and history.

I don't know about you guys, but I joined the military to serve my country. Not to meet chics. I don't know why a gay person would be any different. Maybe, just perhaps, they join to serve our country as well??

road kill
12-27-2010, 02:13 PM
Then I guess almost every other standing army in the world, including some of best in history, besides ours, are also social test tubes.

We're not inventing the wheel here. We're catching up to the rest of the world and history.

I don't know about you guys, but I joined the military to serve my country. Not to meet chics. I don't know why a gay person would be any different. Maybe, just perhaps, they join to serve our country as well??


We are catching up with the rest of the world????

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm........



RK

dnf777
12-27-2010, 02:26 PM
We are catching up with the rest of the world????

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm........



RK

In some regards....yes. (sexual discrimination, sushi bars, bistros)

In many others....no. (aviation, denim, computer technology) We still rule.

If we keep letting education slip, we won't be leading anything in another generation or two.

My reference to "catching up" was in regards to the silly discrimination that the rest of the world has gotten over years ago.

road kill
12-27-2010, 02:36 PM
In some regards....yes. (sexual discrimination, sushi bars, bistros)

In many others....no. (aviation, denim, computer technology) We still rule.

If we keep letting education slip, we won't be leading anything in another generation or two.

My reference to "catching up" was in regards to the silly discrimination that the rest of the world has gotten over years ago.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!:D

RK

ducknwork
12-27-2010, 03:35 PM
I don't know about you guys, but I joined the military to serve my country. Not to meet chics. I don't know why a gay person would be any different. Maybe, just perhaps, they join to serve our country as well??


Then why is it so important that it is legal to flaunt their homosexuality? Why not just serve and keep their personal business...well, personal?

david gibson
12-27-2010, 03:43 PM
In some regards....yes. (sexual discrimination, sushi bars, bistros)

In many others....no. (aviation, denim, computer technology) We still rule.

If we keep letting education slip, we won't be leading anything in another generation or two.

My reference to "catching up" was in regards to the silly discrimination that the rest of the world has gotten over years ago.

yeah, those wonderfully tolerant muslim countries have really gotten over it....

Nor_Cal_Angler
12-27-2010, 08:48 PM
Then I guess almost every other standing army in the world, including some of best in history, besides ours, are also social test tubes.

We're not inventing the wheel here. We're catching up to the rest of the world and history.

I don't know about you guys, but I joined the military to serve my country. Not to meet chics. I don't know why a gay person would be any different. Maybe, just perhaps, they join to serve our country as well??


We are catching up with the rest of the world????

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm........


RK

My thoughts exactly.....I don't really care WHAT the rest of the world is doing...my concern is with what OUR COUNTRY is doing.



Then why is it so important that it is legal to flaunt their homosexuality? Why not just serve and keep their personal business...well, personal?

Duckwork....I was wondering the exact same thing.

NCA

dnf777
12-27-2010, 09:09 PM
Then why is it so important that it is legal to flaunt their homosexuality? Why not just serve and keep their personal business...well, personal?


Duckwork....I was wondering the exact same thing.

NCA


Got news for ya NorCal......its not legal for anyone to flaunt their sexuality in the military.

Do you think the repeal of DADT was all about flaunting?? Do you think they want to have gay pride parades in the streets of Kandahar?
Your homophobia is showing, and I have a theory about homophobes...:rolleyes:

All they want is what any other group of people wants. To be able to serve and not worry about having an otherwise honorable career taken away because of their sexual orientation. If that means "flaunting" to you, well, that's your business.

Perhaps if you served, perhaps with someone who happened to be gay, you would understand. I knew more than one gay person in the army, all of whom served honorably and courageously. They shouldn't have to worry about their careers being in jeopardy for that.

BonMallari
12-27-2010, 09:52 PM
For those of you/us that have been part of a military family, do you think that same sex partners are eligible/deserve the same benefits as conventional spouses...what about survivor benefits ? I think the court system is going to be challenged repeatedly in the military..

Blackstone
12-27-2010, 10:36 PM
Then why is it so important that it is legal to flaunt their homosexuality? Why not just serve and keep their personal business...well, personal?

I don't think the intent is to make it legal to flaunt their homosexuality. I think it is just to make it illegal to discriminate against them because they are. I'm sure you've met people that you could pretty much tell were gay even though that didn't say it or really flaunt it.

Some very interesting questions and concerns have been posed here. It will be interesting to see how the military and the courts deal with them.

Nor_Cal_Angler
12-27-2010, 11:39 PM
Got news for ya NorCal......its not legal for anyone to flaunt their sexuality in the military.

Do you think the repeal of DADT was all about flaunting?? Do you think they want to have gay pride parades in the streets of Kandahar?
Your homophobia is showing, and I have a theory about homophobes...:rolleyes:

All they want is what any other group of people wants. To be able to serve and not worry about having an otherwise honorable career taken away because of their sexual orientation. If that means "flaunting" to you, well, that's your business.

Perhaps if you served, perhaps with someone who happened to be gay, you would understand. I knew more than one gay person in the army, all of whom served honorably and courageously. They shouldn't have to worry about their careers being in jeopardy for that.

Flaunting was the word choosen....

You ask if I think DADT is all about flaunting......NO.

I think it is about....WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA,sniffel, sniffel.....WAAAAAAA look at me, look at me, cry for me toooo, cry for me to...I'm not treated fair...pooooooor me, poooooor me.

I agree...with Duck...

keep it to yourself...

Do I think they want to have a gay parade in the strees of Kanduhar...NO.

But you can be sure as hell they will try to have them on the streets of Pendelton.....GOOD LUCK.

If they have an honorable career...it would be just that honorable they woundnt do anything to make it not so....a LT. CO. (hetro) act's inapproiate with a NCO their "honorable" career is taken away. It wasnt becasue they are hetro....it was the act...so guess what they dont behave in such a fashion.

I do not/have not and prob. wont serve (age) in the military, but I do serve with Line personal that is a BROTHERHOOD/SISTERHOOD....I have had Homosexual people serve with me...and it was a CONSTANT SHOWCASE...so YEA I DO UNDERSTAND.

And your theroy about homophobes......

Based upon your comments and thoughts and opinions on this board...

You seem to be the SOFT ASS....:rolleyes:

NCA

Clay Rogers
12-28-2010, 12:44 AM
Got news for ya NorCal......its not legal for anyone to flaunt their sexuality in the military.

Do you think the repeal of DADT was all about flaunting?? Do you think they want to have gay pride parades in the streets of Kandahar?
Your homophobia is showing, and I have a theory about homophobes...:rolleyes:

All they want is what any other group of people wants. To be able to serve and not worry about having an otherwise honorable career taken away because of their sexual orientation. If that means "flaunting" to you, well, that's your business.

Perhaps if you served, perhaps with someone who happened to be gay, you would understand. I knew more than one gay person in the army, all of whom served honorably and courageously. They shouldn't have to worry about their careers being in jeopardy for that.



They can serve without mentioning that they are gay just as easily. If they don't want to flaunt it, then why do away with the policy of don't ask, don't tell? And it has nothing to do with being a homophobe either. As for me, it's a personal thing, don't agree with it, never will. I don't judge those that do, but it has no place in the military.

dnf777
12-28-2010, 06:09 AM
I do not/have not and prob. wont serve (age) in the military, but I do serve with Line personal that is a BROTHERHOOD/SISTERHOOD....
NCA

There are vietnam veterans re-upping in the reserves. Age is no barrier in a stretched army. If you feel so strongly, then YOU should enlist or seek a commission, commensurate with your education/experience. It will make you proud to know you're serving your country, and giving some poor kid a break who's been there three or four times.

I don't know what "line personal" is. Power line crew? Offensive line for a football team? There's lots of "lines". Try the "Front Lines" and see how worried you are about the guy next to you being gay or not! :rolleyes:
That is, unless my homophobe theory is correct, you may be distracted! :D


Happily married with 7 kids regards...:D

dnf777
12-28-2010, 06:16 AM
They can serve without mentioning that they are gay just as easily. If they don't want to flaunt it, then why do away with the policy of don't ask, don't tell? And it has nothing to do with being a homophobe either. As for me, it's a personal thing, don't agree with it, never will. I don't judge those that do, but it has no place in the military.

Because they don't want to risk an otherwise honorable service record being expunged simply due to their sexual orientation? There have been thousands of gays (men and women) serve in peacetime and combat honorably, who risked being discharged if mere rumor escaped. That's not right.

Personally, I don't agree either. I think its disgusting, on a personal level. But I also don't like squid sashimi. (I prefer Unagi) Neither group should be denied the honor of serving their country. Like was already mentioned, news gets out, even without flaunting. I don't think anyone should flaunt any type of sexuality in uniform. You join the military to kill, not to love.
Having served with a few gays who were fine soldiers, I just don't see why their careers need be in constant jeopardy for something they never flaunted. Its just who they were. I bet you served with at least one male or female that you knew was gay, didn't say anything, and were proud to stand next to him or her and serve? Personal disapproval notwithstanding.

Gibson: You definately have a point, I must concede. So intolerance is a hallmark of Muslim nations, no doubt. Are you suggesting we should digress and be more like them? And continue to discriminate against people we may have a personal or religious dislike for?

road kill
12-28-2010, 06:37 AM
Because they don't want to risk an otherwise honorable service record being expunged simply due to their sexual orientation? There have been thousands of gays (men and women) serve in peacetime and combat honorably, who risked being discharged if mere rumor escaped. That's not right.

Personally, I don't agree either. I think its disgusting, on a personal level. But I also don't like squid sashimi. (I prefer Unagi) Neither group should be denied the honor of serving their country. Like was already mentioned, news gets out, even without flaunting. I don't think anyone should flaunt any type of sexuality in uniform. You join the military to kill, not to love.
Having served with a few gays who were fine soldiers, I just don't see why their careers need be in constant jeopardy for something they never flaunted. Its just who they were. I bet you served with at least one male or female that you knew was gay, didn't say anything, and were proud to stand next to him or her and serve? Personal disapproval notwithstanding.

Gibson: You definately have a point, I must concede. So intolerance is a hallmark of Muslim nations, no doubt. Are you suggesting we should digress and be more like them? And continue to discriminate against people we may have a personal or religious dislike for?

YOU are the one who suggested WE catch up with the rest of the world.

I beleive Mr. Gibson was pointing out the absurdity or YOUR statement.



RK

ducknwork
12-28-2010, 07:00 AM
They can serve without mentioning that they are gay just as easily. If they don't want to flaunt it, then why do away with the policy of don't ask, don't tell? And it has nothing to do with being a homophobe either. As for me, it's a personal thing, don't agree with it, never will. I don't judge those that do, but it has no place in the military.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

ducknwork
12-28-2010, 07:01 AM
That is, unless my homophobe theory is correct, you may be distracted! :D




You sure have said things along these lines pretty often. When I was in school, we had a saying when someone passed gas in class...It's kinda fitting here as well...

The guilty dog barks first!

ducknwork
12-28-2010, 07:04 AM
For those of you/us that have been part of a military family, do you think that same sex partners are eligible/deserve the same benefits as conventional spouses...what about survivor benefits ? I think the court system is going to be challenged repeatedly in the military..

I'm sure it would come down to marriage issues...Which raises another question...Does this now mean that gay marriage will be legalized on all military bases?

ducknwork
12-28-2010, 07:12 AM
I don't think the intent is to make it legal to flaunt their homosexuality. I think it is just to make it illegal to discriminate against them because they are. I'm sure you've met people that you could pretty much tell were gay even though that didn't say it or really flaunt it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but before the repeal of dadt, the military couldn't kick someone out based on the suspicion of being gay. Surely there would have to be more solid evidence than someone flicking their wrists and talking with a lisp, right? So basically, they could keep it to themselves, (like heteros do and thousands of other gays before them) and be fine. You don't see straight guys walking around announcing that they are straight and having straight pride parades, so why do gays have to be allowed to do those things and serve? Again, keep it to themselves!


Because they don't want to risk an otherwise honorable service record being expunged simply due to their sexual orientation? There have been thousands of gays (men and women) serve in peacetime and combat honorably, who risked being discharged if mere rumor escaped. That's not right.

I am sure there have also been thousands that have served honorably and had no problem abiding by the law and not flaunting the fact that they are gay. I always thought the military wasn't a place for individuality, so why do they have to have special legislation passed to allow them to stick out and be themselves?

david gibson
12-28-2010, 08:29 AM
YOU are the one who suggested WE catch up with the rest of the world.

I beleive Mr. Gibson was pointing out the absurdity or YOUR statement.



RK

of course thats all i was doing, but as usual, he reads what he wants to attack me for in it even tho its not really there. journalistic paranoia at its finest (i just made that up)

dnf777
12-28-2010, 09:01 AM
of course thats all i was doing, but as usual, he reads what he wants to attack me for in it even tho its not really there. journalistic paranoia at its finest (i just made that up)

Well Dave, that may be true, but I said we were catching up with the world in the context of non-discrimination and tolerance. To any intelligent person, that comparison would be to western europe, northern europe, England, France, Germany.....but you chose to deliberately pick your dreaded muslim nations, which I do NOT compare us to. And since they seem to be extermely radical in terms of their intolerance, it seems logical that you have something in common with them. So there's your word twisting.

I didn't "attack" anyone, merely asked if you were in support of muslim nations, since you share a profound intolerant attitude, just like they do.

Duck: I am sure there have also been thousands that have served honorably and had no problem abiding by the law and not flaunting the fact that they are gay. I always thought the military wasn't a place for individuality, so why do they have to have special legislation passed to allow them to stick out and be themselves?

Duck, that is almost verbatim what I said to Stump! I don't see the repeal as a tool to allow flaunting. I see it as a way for the very troops you and I refer to, to be able to proudly serve without fear of dismissal if "outed". Straight people can't flaunt sexuality, neither should gays. Straight soldiers can't get kicked out for their private lives, even if they come to light....neither should gays. What isn't fair about that?

And as far as the person passing gas speaking up first, if done PROPERLY, nothing need be said! ;-)

road kill
12-28-2010, 09:15 AM
Well Dave, that may be true, but I said we were catching up with the world in the context of non-discrimination and tolerance. To any intelligent person, that comparison would be to western europe, northern europe, England, France, Germany.....but you chose to deliberately pick your dreaded muslim nations, which I do NOT compare us to. And since they seem to be extermely radical in terms of their intolerance, it seems logical that you have something in common with them. So there's your word twisting.

I didn't "attack" anyone, merely asked if you were in support of muslim nations, since you share a profound intolerant attitude, just like they do.

Duck: I am sure there have also been thousands that have served honorably and had no problem abiding by the law and not flaunting the fact that they are gay. I always thought the military wasn't a place for individuality, so why do they have to have special legislation passed to allow them to stick out and be themselves?

Duck, that is almost verbatim what I said to Stump! I don't see the repeal as a tool to allow flaunting. I see it as a way for the very troops you and I refer to, to be able to proudly serve without fear of dismissal if "outed". Straight people can't flaunt sexuality, neither should gays. Straight soldiers can't get kicked out for their private lives, even if they come to light....neither should gays. What isn't fair about that?

And as far as the person passing gas speaking up first, if done PROPERLY, nothing need be said! ;-)

WOW!!

World = western europe, northern europe, England, France, Germany

Excluding those dreaded Muslim nations is a biased insult.
No China, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, et al??

But I guess that's OK since you are a middle of the road independent.:rolleyes:


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!


RK

Clay Rogers
12-28-2010, 09:22 AM
There are vietnam veterans re-upping in the reserves. Age is no barrier in a stretched army. If you feel so strongly, then YOU should enlist or seek a commission, commensurate with your education/experience. It will make you proud to know you're serving your country, and giving some poor kid a break who's been there three or four times.

I don't know what "line personal" is. Power line crew? Offensive line for a football team? There's lots of "lines". Try the "Front Lines" and see how worried you are about the guy next to you being gay or not! :rolleyes:
That is, unless my homophobe theory is correct, you may be distracted! :D


Happily married with 7 kids regards...:D


Not trying to call you out Dave, but have you served on the front lines? Actual front line, with bullets flying by and grenades being lobed at you, people bleeding and dying next to you, I don't know of many MD's that have. I did, however, and I would not have liked it one damn bit! And you can call me what you want, homophobe, simple-minded or whatever, don't care. Gay men and women have no place in the military, period. If they want to serve, let them serve in the peace corp!

My reason is simple, it's the same reason I wouldn't want a woman next to me either.

dnf777
12-28-2010, 09:24 AM
WOW!!

World = western europe, northern europe, England, France, Germany

Excluding those dreaded Muslim nations is a biased insult.
No China, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, et al??

But I guess that's OK since you are a middle of the road independent.:rolleyes:


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!


RK

Thanks for furthering my point, RK!

Yes, check the discrimination policies of those countrie's militaries.

I merely stated a fact, that in that area of freedom and liberty, we were behind many others. DG chose to highlight mulsim nations, not me.
Did you guys REALLY not know what I meant by that? Really?

If not, I'll post the following from Wiki, which may help some to catch up:

The military forces of the world have differing approaches to the enlistment of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) individuals. Most Western armed forces have now removed policies excluding non-heterosexual individuals (with strict policies on sexual harassment). Of the 26 countries that participate militarily in NATO, more than 22 permit gay people to serve; of the permanent members of the United Nations Security Council, the United Kingdom, France, and Russia permit gay people to serve openly. The United States is currently in the process of integrating openly gay people into its military.

Nations that permit gay people to serve openly in the military include the Republic of China (Taiwan), Australia, Israel, Argentina, Canada, all member states of the European Union and every original NATO signatory except Turkey.[1]

Now do you two understand what I meant?

road kill
12-28-2010, 09:26 AM
Thanks for furthering my point, RK!

Yes, check the discrimination policies of those countrie's militaries.

I merely stated a fact, that in that area of freedom and liberty, we were behind many others. DG chose to highlight mulsim nations, not me.
Did you guys REALLY not know what I meant by that? Really?

I know exactly what you were saying, I don't think you did.:D


RK

road kill
12-28-2010, 09:27 AM
Not trying to call you out Dave, but have you served on the front lines? Actual front line, with bullets flying by and grenades being lobed at you, people bleeding and dying next to you, I don't know of many MD's that have. I did, however, and I would not have liked it one damn bit! And you can call me what you want, homophobe, simple-minded or whatever, don't care. Gay men and women have no place in the military, period. If they want to serve, let them serve in the peace corp!

My reason is simple, it's the same reason I wouldn't want a woman next to me either.

Been there, agree 100%!!!


RK

dnf777
12-28-2010, 09:51 AM
Not trying to call you out Dave, but have you served on the front lines? Actual front line, with bullets flying by and grenades being lobed at you, people bleeding and dying next to you, I don't know of many MD's that have. I did, however, and I would not have liked it one damn bit! And you can call me what you want, homophobe, simple-minded or whatever, don't care. Gay men and women have no place in the military, period. If they want to serve, let them serve in the peace corp!

My reason is simple, it's the same reason I wouldn't want a woman next to me either.

I try not to call people out either, but if we're going to, let's ask everyone who has and who hasn't served....combat, peacetime military, boy scouts, etc...

And I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat with you or any other veteran other than to thank you for your service, but YES, my ADA battery defended Prince Sultan Air Base during Operation Desert Fox and SouthernWatch. We were first in line for the SCUDS, and spent more time that I cared to in MOPP-4 gear, full ready posture. Fortunately, that phase of operations did not see bullets flying. I know that makes me less of a veteran than you, but I know even under those cushy circumstances, I was too damn worried about VX, sarin, setting up decon stations, and anthrax than to question the orientation of the guys and gals with me.

As for no women in the military..........ain't touching that one! Other than to say my Batallion commander was among the first female-inclusive class at West Point, and I wouldn't want to say that to her face!

BrianW
12-28-2010, 09:56 AM
For the most part, I think the type of person who would enlist to serve their country as a profession are not going to do things to sabotage that career. But it's not as simple as say, just wanting to be able to greet your "significant other" the same way the hetero couple does when you step off the plane.

The problem, imo, will be from the militant gay activists who are out to make political points and enjoy the disruption that it causes in the status quo because of the crossing of gender roles.

road kill
12-28-2010, 10:02 AM
For the most part, I think the type of person who would enlist to serve their country as a profession are not going to do things to sabotage that career. But it's not as simple as say, just wanting to be able to greet your "significant other" the same way the hetero couple does when you step off the plane.

The problem, imo, will be from the militant gay activists who are out to make political points and enjoy the disruption that it causes in the status quo because of the crossing of gender roles.


If a male and female were caught "fraternizing" on a given base what would occur.
UCMJ addresses this issue clearly.

That will now not be allowed with this ruling.
So they will no longer be treated the same, now they will be "special."

Which is the political end game all along.

The military is being used as a social test tube for progressives.
(middle of the road independents)


RK

Clay Rogers
12-28-2010, 10:04 AM
I try not to call people out either, but if we're going to, let's ask everyone who has and who hasn't served....combat, peacetime military, boy scouts, etc...

And I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat with you or any other veteran other than to thank you for your service, but YES, my ADA battery defended Prince Sultan Air Base during Operation Desert Fox and SouthernWatch. We were first in line for the SCUDS, and spent more time that I cared to in MOPP-4 gear, full ready posture. Fortunately, that phase of operations did not see bullets flying. I know that makes me less of a veteran than you, but I know even under those cushy circumstances, I was too damn worried about VX, sarin, setting up decon stations, and anthrax than to question the orientation of the guys and gals with me.

As for no women in the military..........ain't touching that one! Other than to say my Batallion commander was among the first female-inclusive class at West Point, and I wouldn't want to say that to her face!


It does not make you less of veteran than me, I was merely wondering where your knowledge of front line combat came from. Last time I checked, VA doesn't offer different benefits for different levels of "veteranship".

But having this first hand knowledge, I can tell you that an overwhelming majority of combat troops don't see it the way you do. Right or wrong, you want some one you know you can trust and count on when sh!t don't go according to plan, which is all the time in combat.(Murphy's Law and all) And I think it's great that all those other countries have seen fit to let gays serve. Maybe the gays that want to serve here should go over there and join, and they can all stand around comparing dress sizes and lipstick color.

















That last line was merely a joke, please take it as such.

ducknwork
12-28-2010, 10:41 AM
western europe, northern europe, England, France, Germany.....

Don't know about the rest of you, but I have no desire for our country to be like these listed ones at all...

The US is the US. We are who we are and we didn't get this way by copying anyone along the way in the last few hundred years. That's part of what makes us a great nation.

dnf777
12-28-2010, 10:55 AM
I think it's great that all those other countries have seen fit to let gays serve. Maybe the gays that want to serve here should go over there and join, and they can all stand around comparing dress sizes and lipstick color.


That last line was merely a joke, please take it as such.


In my experience, the several troops we all "knew" were pitching for the other team, were excellent soldiers, who did their jobs, and nobody seemed to mind one bit, despite virtually knowing they were gay. The closer we got to real danger, folks cared and even took notice....LESS.

Brain's comments were very fore telling. Of COURSE there will be a vocal few who will get ALL the media attention, especially on FOX. Just like racial, gender and any other minority group, there will be those with a very loud agenda. These are the people that the RWM will focus upon. Guaranteed.

Thank you, sincerely, for your service to country.
And FWIW, despite our differences of opinion, I would gladly stand next to you in conflict, any day brother.

ducknwork
12-28-2010, 11:03 AM
Brain's comments were very fore telling. Of COURSE there will be a vocal few who will get ALL the media attention, especially on FOX. Just like racial, gender and any other minority group, there will be those with a very loud agenda. These are the people that the RWM will focus upon. Guaranteed.




I guarantee that the MSM/LWM (sorry to be redundant) will all but ignore the ones who raise hell. Don't knock Fox, someone has to tell the other side and it sure as hell won't be ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, Huffington Post, etc etc...I have a hard time seeing Rachel Maddow reporting honestly about any negative consequences from this decision.

As far as the ones 'with a very loud agenda', they got what they said they wanted. Now, they need to STFU and serve like everyone else (which is what they claim is all they wanted), or get kicked out for insubordination and any other violations of military code that might fit.

dnf777
12-28-2010, 11:03 AM
The US is the US. We are who we are and we didn't get this way by copying anyone along the way in the last few hundred years. That's part of what makes us a great nation.

You should really read about the founding fathers, the framers of the Constitution, English common law, the magna carta, the Greek and Roman forms of governance. While you're at it, check out Halloween, St. Nicholas, St. Valentine's day....they're not American in origin!

IMO, what makes us a great nation is our incorporating the best of what everyone has to offer, and creating a new culture from many. And the ability to kick a$$ when need be.

dnf777
12-28-2010, 11:05 AM
I guarantee that the MSM/LWM (sorry to be redundant) will all but ignore the ones who raise hell. Don't knock Fox, someone has to tell the other side and it sure as hell won't be ABC, NBC, CBS, MSNBC, Huffington Post, etc etc...I have a hard time seeing Rachel Maddow reporting honestly about any negative consequences from this decision.

Both ends of the political and social spectrum have vociferous kooks that deserve to be ignored. Unfortunately, in our polarized society, they are the very ones who get ALL the media coverage.

As for the STFU comment, I agree. If they persist in demonstrating and having decadence parades on base, they should and WILL be disciplined, just as if straight couples hosted love-ins on base.

ducknwork
12-28-2010, 11:08 AM
You should really read about the founding fathers, the framers of the Constitution, English common law, the magna carta, the Greek and Roman forms of governance. While you're at it, check out Halloween, St. Nicholas, St. Valentine's day....they're not American in origin!

IMO, what makes us a great nation is our incorporating the best of what everyone has to offer, and creating a new culture from many. And the ability to kick a$$ when need be.

Look where homosexuality and the acceptance and celebration of it got the greeks and romans. I would hardly call that the 'best of what everyone has to offer'. Should've tossed that one out with the chaffe...

Copying a bunch of societies that eventually failed doesn't seem like an awesome idea to me...perhaps just a tad counterproductive.

ducknwork
12-28-2010, 11:18 AM
Google pederasty in Greece and Rome...They were pretty big on that in ancient times. They even thought it boosted troop morale and believed it was good for their military. Is that what is next for America? Are we going to follow them into that as well?

dnf777
12-28-2010, 12:03 PM
Google pederasty in Greece and Rome...\ Are we going to follow them into that as well?

This has gone beyond the absurd.

Our system of gov't is patterned after Greek and Roman systems of governance. That doesn't mean you need to bag the page-boys....somebody forgot to tell the republcian senators that. Our justice system is patterned largely afte old English law. Nothing wrong with that. We took a good idea and made it better.

ducknwork
12-28-2010, 12:09 PM
This has gone beyond the absurd.



One might think (and hope) so, but I hear they are slathering grease on the proverbial slope right about now...

History repeats itself, remember? If it was thought to be good for the Greek military, some left wing nutjob might think it isn't such a bad thing to try out in the good ol' US.

Maybe these guys would be all for it...

http://www.nambla.org/

road kill
12-28-2010, 12:35 PM
You should really read about the founding fathers, the framers of the Constitution, English common law, the magna carta, the Greek and Roman forms of governance. While you're at it, check out Halloween, St. Nicholas, St. Valentine's day....they're not American in origin!

IMO, what makes us a great nation is our incorporating the best of what everyone has to offer, and creating a new culture from many. And the ability to kick a$$ when need be.


So shouting on the mountain tops that one is gay is the best they have to offer??
That makes America better how???

You just can't help yourself..........:D


RK

dnf777
12-28-2010, 01:40 PM
So shouting on the mountain tops that one is gay is the best they have to offer??
That makes America better how???

You just can't help yourself..........:D


RK

Whaaaaaaaat?

This has definately won the gold medal for absurdity!

I comment on America's melting-pot strength, multicultural assets...and you go yelling gay pride from the mountaintop???

I'm outta this one. You know what I meant, but you and gibson are hell-bent on twisting everything into the absurd.

Have a good one!

(and please don't interpret that in any other way than to have a good day....no muslim extreme days, no yelling f@ggot from the mountain top......just have a good GD effing DAY!!!!) :D

Ken Bora
12-28-2010, 07:13 PM
Whaaaaaaaat?

This has definately won the gold medal for absurdity!



Don't Worry,
I guarantee none of this will matter come spring time when the snow melts and the Mississippi crests.
I am sure everyone will welcome the Army National Guard and itís protective dykes.;-)






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