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Roger Perry
02-04-2011, 03:01 PM
By Carrie Dann
msnbc.com msnbc.com
updated 2/4/2011 11:14:35 AM ET 2011-02-04T16:14:35

The most central of these inquiries is whether the “individual mandate” — the federal requirement that most Americans buy health insurance or pay a penalty — is constitutional.

The government can compel me to take actions like paying taxes or serving in the military. So does it also have the power to force me to have insurance?
Article I of the Constitution lays out the “enumerated powers,” a grant of specific authorities to Congress.
One of the “enumerated powers” is Congress’ ability “to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes.”

Harvard law professor Charles Fried, who served as Solicitor General under President Ronald Reagan, says the “commerce clause” clearly applies to the health care insurance market.
“Health care insurance surely is commerce, insuring as it does something like 18 percent of the gross national product,” he said. “Now if that's so, if health care insurance is commerce, then does Congress have the right to regulate health care insurance? Of course it does.”

Duke University law professor Walter Dellinger, a former acting solicitor general who believes the health care law is constitutional,adds that the unpredictability of when or if a citizen will need health care makes the insurance market different than markets for other products.
An uninsured person who is unexpectedly rushed to the emergency room could benefit from millions of dollars worth of medical care, and those costs are passed along to others in the system. He argues that the transferability of those costs justify the government's authority to regulate the insurance market.
“If my team makes the Super Bowl and I haven't thought that they would and haven't provided for a flat-screen television, I can't show up [at a store] and have someone provide it to me,” Dellinger said. “But with health care, no one can be assured they won't need it. And when they do it, it is often the case that the cost is transferred to other people.”

huntinman
02-04-2011, 03:04 PM
Your article is irrelevant as 2 judges have said the law is unconstitutional. Obama is in contempt of court at this time. He also HAS contempt for the American public and demonstrates that on a regular basis by trying to ram his BS down our throats even though we keep telling him we do NOT want it.

Roger Perry
02-04-2011, 03:10 PM
Your article is irrelevant as 2 judges have said the law is unconstitutional. Obama is in contempt of court at this time. He also HAS contempt for the American public and demonstrates that on a regular basis by trying to ram his BS down our throats even though we keep telling him we do NOT want it.

Just because 2 judges ruled against it, it will go to the Supreme Court for a final ruling and that will not happen until sometime next year. Do you really think Obama will give up without a fight?

There are alot of people that do want it. From what I see it is about 50/50.

BonMallari
02-04-2011, 03:18 PM
Just because 2 judges ruled against it, it will go to the Supreme Court for a final ruling and that will not happen until sometime next year. Do you really think Obama will give up without a fight?

There are alot of people that do want it. From what I see it is about 50/50.

based on the results of the 2010 election , your estimate of 50/50 may be a bit off...the recent vote in the Senate to overturn the bill was 51-47....that is a mere two votes flopped the other way from a whole new ball game...I wonder how many Senators whose jobs are on the line in 2012 that overwhelmingly voted FOR passage changed their vote ala Kerry style so they can now say" I was for it but now I am against it" (hypocrisy smiley)

If BHO thinks it will get him re elected he would turn on his own bill with some sort of explanation that it was miswritten

huntinman
02-04-2011, 03:21 PM
I know Obama won't give up without a fight, like any good community organizer would... That's gonna make it that much sweeter when it finally goes down to defeat. We may have to do it piece by piece... that's OK too. 2012 is coming... Can I get you a cup of tea Roger??;-)

TxHillHunter
02-04-2011, 04:07 PM
By Carrie Dann
msnbc.com msnbc.com
updated 2/4/2011 11:14:35 AM ET 2011-02-04T16:14:35

The most central of these inquiries is whether the “individual mandate” — the federal requirement that most Americans buy health insurance or pay a penalty — is constitutional.

The government can compel me to take actions like paying taxes or serving in the military. So does it also have the power to force me to have insurance?
Article I of the Constitution lays out the “enumerated powers,” a grant of specific authorities to Congress.
One of the “enumerated powers” is Congress’ ability “to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes.”

Harvard law professor Charles Fried, who served as Solicitor General under President Ronald Reagan, says the “commerce clause” clearly applies to the health care insurance market.
“Health care insurance surely is commerce, insuring as it does something like 18 percent of the gross national product,” he said. “Now if that's so, if health care insurance is commerce, then does Congress have the right to regulate health care insurance? Of course it does.”

Duke University law professor Walter Dellinger, a former acting solicitor general who believes the health care law is constitutional,adds that the unpredictability of when or if a citizen will need health care makes the insurance market different than markets for other products.
An uninsured person who is unexpectedly rushed to the emergency room could benefit from millions of dollars worth of medical care, and those costs are passed along to others in the system. He argues that the transferability of those costs justify the government's authority to regulate the insurance market.
“If my team makes the Super Bowl and I haven't thought that they would and haven't provided for a flat-screen television, I can't show up [at a store] and have someone provide it to me,” Dellinger said. “But with health care, no one can be assured they won't need it. And when they do it, it is often the case that the cost is transferred to other people.”

Not sure anyone is arguing that Congress does not have Constitutional authority to "regulate" health care; however, that is mutually exclusive from the authority to mandate me to buy anything!

Leddyman
02-04-2011, 04:18 PM
If a Dem congress can make everybody buy health insurance a Repub congress can make everybody buy a gun.
We'll repeal Obamacare and then.....Guns for everybody!!!! YAY!

Constitutional regards,

scott2012
02-04-2011, 04:31 PM
No where in the constitution is an American citizen forced to buy/purchase/lease or rent anything.

Roger Perry
02-04-2011, 05:21 PM
No where in the constitution is an American citizen forced to buy/purchase/lease or rent anything.

So you think the government cannot force you to buy health insurance?

Unless you are 65 years old;-)


Medicare is a federal government program that provides health care coverage if you are 65 or older, or have a disability, no matter what your income. The Social Security Administration advises people to apply for Medicare benefits 3 months before the age of 65 years old to ensure that your Medicare coverage starts as soon as you turn 65. Individuals with specified disabilities and End-Stage Renal Disease can begin Medicare before the age of 65. If you are already receiving Social Security benefits, you will be automatically enrolled in Medicare without having to fill out an additional application.

Enrollment Costs
Part A is generally free, however, if you worked less than the required 10 years in Medicare-covered employment to receive Part A free, you will have to pay from $189 to $343 per month for Medicare Part A coverage.
Part B has a monthly premium of $78.20 in 2005. As a general rule, if you are not automatically enrolled in Medicare as stated above, you should enroll in Medicare Part A and Part B when you turn 65. If you delay enrollment in Part B, you may have to pay a penalty of 10% of the Part B premium for each year that you wait.

Think again;-)

BrianW
02-04-2011, 05:38 PM
http://ssa.gov/pubs/10043.html#part5

When should I apply?

If you are already getting Social Security retirement or disability benefits or railroad retirement checks, you will be contacted a few months before you become eligible for Medicare and given the information you need. If you live in one of the 50 states or Washington, D.C., you will be enrolled in Medicare Parts A and B automatically. However, because you must pay a premium for Part B coverage, you have the option of turning it down.

Granddaddy
02-04-2011, 06:05 PM
By Carrie Dann
msnbc.com msnbc.com
updated 2/4/2011 11:14:35 AM ET 2011-02-04T16:14:35

The most central of these inquiries is whether the “individual mandate” — the federal requirement that most Americans buy health insurance or pay a penalty — is constitutional.

The government can compel me to take actions like paying taxes or serving in the military. So does it also have the power to force me to have insurance?
Article I of the Constitution lays out the “enumerated powers,” a grant of specific authorities to Congress.
One of the “enumerated powers” is Congress’ ability “to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes.”

Harvard law professor Charles Fried, who served as Solicitor General under President Ronald Reagan, says the “commerce clause” clearly applies to the health care insurance market.
“Health care insurance surely is commerce, insuring as it does something like 18 percent of the gross national product,” he said. “Now if that's so, if health care insurance is commerce, then does Congress have the right to regulate health care insurance? Of course it does.”

Duke University law professor Walter Dellinger, a former acting solicitor general who believes the health care law is constitutional,adds that the unpredictability of when or if a citizen will need health care makes the insurance market different than markets for other products.
An uninsured person who is unexpectedly rushed to the emergency room could benefit from millions of dollars worth of medical care, and those costs are passed along to others in the system. He argues that the transferability of those costs justify the government's authority to regulate the insurance market.
“If my team makes the Super Bowl and I haven't thought that they would and haven't provided for a flat-screen television, I can't show up [at a store] and have someone provide it to me,” Dellinger said. “But with health care, no one can be assured they won't need it. And when they do it, it is often the case that the cost is transferred to other people.”

The Harvard professor answered a question that is not relevant. Of course buying health insurance like buying ice cream is commerce. But the issue is whether the government can compel (require by legal mandate) a citizen to buy anything, not whether the buying is covered by the commerce clause. There is nothing in the constitution that requires a citizen to have to buy anything. Taxes are a payment out of earnings to fund the government and can be avoided by not working, not buying anything or owning property. Medicare can be refused without criminal penalty.

If the government can tell me I have to buy insurance, we have lost all personal choice and freedom. I think the Supreme Court will side with the states. I think Obamacare is dead.

M&K's Retrievers
02-04-2011, 07:10 PM
So you think the government cannot force you to buy health insurance?

Unless you are 65 years old;-)


Medicare is a federal government program that provides health care coverage if you are 65 or older, or have a disability, no matter what your income. The Social Security Administration advises people to apply for Medicare benefits 3 months before the age of 65 years old to ensure that your Medicare coverage starts as soon as you turn 65. Individuals with specified disabilities and End-Stage Renal Disease can begin Medicare before the age of 65. If you are already receiving Social Security benefits, you will be automatically enrolled in Medicare without having to fill out an additional application.

Enrollment Costs
Part A is generally free, however, if you worked less than the required 10 years in Medicare-covered employment to receive Part A free, you will have to pay from $189 to $343 per month for Medicare Part A coverage.
Part B has a monthly premium of $78.20 in 2005. As a general rule, if you are not automatically enrolled in Medicare as stated above, you should enroll in Medicare Part A and Part B when you turn 65. If you delay enrollment in Part B, you may have to pay a penalty of 10% of the Part B premium for each year that you wait.

Think again;-)

Why don't you just think?

Gerry Clinchy
02-04-2011, 07:30 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/03/health/policy/03health.html?bl

As Nancy said, "We won't know what's in it until we pass it." How right she was :-)

This article discusses


The Obama administration is examining whether the new health care law can be used to require insurance plans to offer contraceptives and other family planning services to women free of charge.

There is a real irony in Obamacare ... in this instance they want to require that everyone have a better insurance plan than they may have had before; while OTOH they will penalize those who have plans that are too good.

Meanwhile, Sebelius is discussing how states can mitigate their Medicaid programs by requiring or increasing co-pays. Hmm ... so those who pay for their health insurance must get free contraceptives, but Medicaid people may have a co-pay? If you're smart enough to have a job, shouldn't you be smart enough to realize it's worth paying for contraceptives?

I'm really beginning to get confused on whether they are all on the same page.

huntinman
02-04-2011, 10:34 PM
The same page? they are not even in the same book:rolleyes:

scott2012
02-05-2011, 12:32 AM
The Harvard professor answered a question that is not relevant. Of course buying health insurance like buying ice cream is commerce. But the issue is whether the government can compel (require by legal mandate) a citizen to buy anything, not whether the buying is covered by the commerce clause. There is nothing in the constitution that requires a citizen to have to buy anything. Taxes are a payment out of earnings to fund the government and can be avoided by not working, not buying anything or owning property. Medicare can be refused without criminal penalty.

If the government can tell me I have to buy insurance, we have lost all personal choice and freedom. I think the Supreme Court will side with the states. I think Obamacare is dead.

Thank you......very well put.....you went into the detail that I was not wanting to have to explain. Some American citizens just dont understand their constitutional rights....it really is time for those who dont understand to get involved and learn about and then protect what has been paid for in blood and sacrifice by so many of our citizens.

scott2012
02-05-2011, 12:42 AM
So you think the government cannot force you to buy health insurance?

Unless you are 65 years old;-)


Medicare is a federal government program that provides health care coverage if you are 65 or older, or have a disability, no matter what your income. The Social Security Administration advises people to apply for Medicare benefits 3 months before the age of 65 years old to ensure that your Medicare coverage starts as soon as you turn 65. Individuals with specified disabilities and End-Stage Renal Disease can begin Medicare before the age of 65. If you are already receiving Social Security benefits, you will be automatically enrolled in Medicare without having to fill out an additional application.

Enrollment Costs
Part A is generally free, however, if you worked less than the required 10 years in Medicare-covered employment to receive Part A free, you will have to pay from $189 to $343 per month for Medicare Part A coverage.
Part B has a monthly premium of $78.20 in 2005. As a general rule, if you are not automatically enrolled in Medicare as stated above, you should enroll in Medicare Part A and Part B when you turn 65. If you delay enrollment in Part B, you may have to pay a penalty of 10% of the Part B premium for each year that you wait.

Think again;-)

Roger.....do you believe that Medicare is health insurance or a liberal (not a political party affiliation) term of some form of health coverage?

Eric Johnson
02-05-2011, 09:10 AM
An old axiom is "Commerce is the mutually beneficial exchange of worth."

Where does being forced to buy health insurance fit into that statement?

Eric

Uncle Bill
02-07-2011, 04:22 PM
....Some American citizens just dont understand their constitutional rights....it really is time for those who dont understand to get involved and learn about and then protect what has been paid for in blood and sacrifice by so many of our citizens.



It would be so 'kind' of you to believe that is the case here with Roger. But that is not so. I am reminded of a great paraprosdokian figure of speech that states: "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

As Einstein made clear..."The primary difference between genius and idiocy, is genius has limitations."

Hang in there, Scott. Remember to take life with a grain of salt...plus a slice of lemon, and a shot of tequilla.;-)

UB