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Marvin S
02-08-2011, 01:01 PM
How's the electric car doing? I read on the internet that cold temps take a lot of miles out of the battery, like 50%. But I figured that you being a EE & a supporter of stupidity, that you would have one & know how to make the thing work!!!!!!!!! :-P ;-)

Buzz
02-08-2011, 01:07 PM
I don't believe in 100% electric. To be practical it has to be a hybrid that you can also plug in like The Volt. When the battery runs down, the gas engine kicks in and operates similar to they way an electric locomotive operates.

Until some miracle in battery tech comes along, that's the way it is. ;-)

Unless gas goes a lot higher, I don't really see the hybrids working out too well either. The battery in something like The Volt costs a small fortune.

Unless you do all your driving in the city, I don't see how a hybrid works out for you at all. As you can imagine, the vast majority of my miles are put on "out of town."

Blackstone
02-08-2011, 03:10 PM
I don't believe in 100% electric. To be practical it has to be a hybrid that you can also plug in like The Volt. When the battery runs down, the gas engine kicks in and operates similar to they way an electric locomotive operates.

Until some miracle in battery tech comes along, that's the way it is. ;-)

Unless gas goes a lot higher, I don't really see the hybrids working out too well either. The battery in something like The Volt costs a small fortune.

Unless you do all your driving in the city, I don't see how a hybrid works out for you at all. As you can imagine, the vast majority of my miles are put on "out of town."

Technically, the Volt is not a hybrid vehicle. Hybrids use 2 or more distinct power sources to propel the vehicle. The Volt only uses electricity (like you said, similar to a diesel-electric locomotive). That's why the call it an "electric extended range vehicle." The internal combustion engine in the Volt acts as a generator and only supplies electricity to the battery once it is depleted. It has a 9.3 gal. tank, and you have a range of about 375 miles on a full charge and a full tank of gas. That works out to about 40 mpg. If you need to go farther, you can always get more gas and keep going.

Buzz
02-08-2011, 06:05 PM
Technically, the Volt is not a hybrid vehicle. Hybrids use 2 or more distinct power sources to propel the vehicle. The Volt only uses electricity (like you said, similar to a diesel-electric locomotive). That's why the call it an "electric extended range vehicle." The internal combustion engine in the Volt acts as a generator and only supplies electricity to the battery once it is depleted. It has a 9.3 gal. tank, and you have a range of about 375 miles on a full charge and a full tank of gas. That works out to about 40 mpg. If you need to go farther, you can always get more gas and keep going.


Right. I stand corrected on the terminology. Back in the 90's I did designs for all electric vehicles and some hybrids. At the time I was doing the work for GM as a supplier to their Hughes Electronics Division out near Long Beach. At the time there was way too much political battling going on in the company. For some reason they had both Hughes and AC Delco working on parallel projects and there was way too much bad blood and back stabbing going on between divisions. I could never understand wanting to go with the complexity of hybrids. It just didn't make sense to me compared to the concept of the "electric extended range vehicle." But then, back in the 80's I worked on diesel electric traction systems.

So Blackstone... You seem to know something about these things. What can you tell us about the impact that cold weather has on the battery technology used in The Volt?

Blackstone
02-08-2011, 09:43 PM
Right. I stand corrected on the terminology. Back in the 90's I did designs for all electric vehicles and some hybrids. At the time I was doing the work for GM as a supplier to their Hughes Electronics Division out near Long Beach. At the time there was way too much political battling going on in the company. For some reason they had both Hughes and AC Delco working on parallel projects and there was way too much bad blood and back stabbing going on between divisions. I could never understand wanting to go with the complexity of hybrids. It just didn't make sense to me compared to the concept of the "electric extended range vehicle." But then, back in the 80's I worked on diesel electric traction systems.

GM never really wanted to get into the hybrid car market. We developed the hybrid system for buses, which was more practical at the time (all city stop and go driving). The redundant systems in passenger cars makes it too expensive to be profitable for manufacturers. They are just charging what the market will bear and spreading the rest of the cost out over the other vehicle lines. GM, Ford & Chrysler realized the future was electrification and hydrogen vehicles. They only got forced into the hybrid market because of $4 per gallon gas, which led to the success of the Toyota Prius. Consumer demand for more hybrids led everyone down that path. The U.S. manufacturers were caught unprepared. Of course, as soon as gas went to $2 per gallon, Prius sales fell 47.5%, so the U.S. manufacturers were glad they hadnít committed a lot of money and resources to hybrids.


So Blackstone... You seem to know something about these things. What can you tell us about the impact that cold weather has on the battery technology used in The Volt?

The Volt has a Lithium-ion battery instead of the nickel-metal-hydride batteries used in most hybrids. Lithium batteries perform better at colder temps, and lose less power. There is some loss, about 15% at 0 degrees, and about another 10% at -10 degrees. However, it is a 16 kWh battery, and it only take about 8 kWh to go 40 miles, so there is some extra capacity built in. Plus, the Volt battery has a liquid thermal heating and cooling system to keep the battery temps in more suitable range for maximum performance. Now, that is the GM press release information. We will have to see how it actually performs in very cold weather.

As a matter of fact, I am going to be driving one Thursday in Chicago, so Iíll get to see first hand how it handles the cold. Iíll let you know if the battery holds up or not.

Marvin S
02-10-2011, 11:27 AM
The Volt has a Lithium-ion battery instead of the nickel-metal-hydride batteries used in most hybrids. Lithium batteries perform better at colder temps, and lose less power. There is some loss, about 15% at 0 degrees, and about another 10% at -10 degrees. However, it is a 16 kWh battery, and it only take about 8 kWh to go 40 miles, so there is some extra capacity built in. Plus, the Volt battery has a liquid thermal heating and cooling system to keep the battery temps in more suitable range for maximum performance. Now, that is the GM press release information. We will have to see how it actually performs in very cold weather.

As a matter of fact, I am going to be driving one Thursday in Chicago, so Iíll get to see first hand how it handles the cold. Iíll let you know if the battery holds up or not.

I read somewhere recently that Lithium will not be available in the quantities required to meet needs, I vaguely remember the article being about a deposit in Bolivia?. That along with the fact that the Chinese control a major portion (90%) of the rare earths known in the world, which are also necessary for a lot of this free energy. When I was at Mines there was a Spodumene mine in Hill City, owned by Foote Minerals, neither exist today. Lithium is also used in lubricants as its molecular structure is log like, but I would venture it could be replaced by Molybdenum which is circular in nature, MolyLube anyone?

Add to that the comment by Myhrvold, former CTO at MSFT, that too many of the best & brightest are getting into non valued added pursuits such as Facebook, Twitter, Zinga which are little more than internet gossip columns but quite lucrative for the founders, when what is really needed is research breakthroughs on nano sizing dellvery systems.

But it will be interesting your take on the car & it's performance. We used battery loco's underground in the mines, very heavy, bulky & easy to run down with any deviation from the norm on current withdrawal.

Blackstone
02-12-2011, 05:15 PM
Let me preface the by saying I work for GM. However, I will try to be as unbiased with my opinion of as possible.

The car was very quiet, handled and rode well, and performed well (surprising acceleration). On a full charge, I got 35 miles before the gas engine came on. Outside emps were about 10 degrees. In all fairness, the car had been stored inside, so the battery wasn’t really cold. Once the car was running, the heating and cooling system for the battery kept the battery at an efficient operating temperature, even though it was very cold. I am sure my range would have been less if the vehicle had been sitting outside in the cold all night and not plugged in to start and warm up before driving.

I learned some interesting things about the Volt and electric cars in general. All of the batteries will lose some of their charge when temps are below about 30 degrees or above 85 degrees. Although, Li-ion batteries, like what’s in the Volt, are less affected by temperature extremes than NiMH, like are used in most hybrids. Also, Li-ion batteries don’t have a memory, so you don’t have to discharge them fully to prevent the “memory effect.”

Range is also affected by driving conditions as well as how you drive. The charge will deplete faster in hilly terrain, or if you accelerate hard or brake hard. Running accessories (heater, A/C & defroster) draw charge from the battery as well, and will decrease range. The more demand you put on the battery, the sooner it discharges. That’s why, the range touted by electric vehicles makers is somewhat exaggerated. I believe the true range for the Volt on a single charge is probably closer to 32 - 35 miles on average (real world) than the 40 that is advertised. Nissan says the Leaf will go 100 miles on a charge. However, again, that is only under optimal conditions. The reality is it will probably only go about 70 miles on a charge under normal driving conditions, less if it’s really hot or cold (they have no heating and cooling system for their battery). This gives them a pretty limited range. When traveling, you always have to wonder if you will have enough power to make it where you’re going and back, or to where you can recharge. If you get caught in a traffic jam or get caught in inclement weather, you may risk of running out of juice. Once these batteries are fully discharged, you’re done traveling. The Leaf takes almost 20 hours to recharge on a standard 120v household plug. You can recharge in about 3 hours if you have their special high capacity quick charger. Either way, you’re not going anywhere for a while. This pretty much limits electric only vehicles, like the Leaf, to shorter range commutes, which means you must have a 2nd vehicle if you plan to drive any long distances. With the Volt, your range is extended indefinitely by the electricity generated by the gas engine. You can drive from NY to CA if you want without recharging. All you have to do is add gas. You can go about 330 miles on the 9.3 gallon tank.

The only thing I didn’t like about the Volt was the effort it takes to get into the back seat. The rear seats sit atop of part of the battery pack. A man with size 10 – 12 feet (or a woman with big feet) will find it difficult to just step into the rear compartment and sit down. You have enough leg room, but you can’t get your feet in without turning your foot sideways to step in, then turn your feet straight after you get in, so that your toes fit under the front seats. The other solution is to move the front seats forward, get in, them move the seats back again. It’s kind of hard to explain, but if you try one out at the dealership, you will see what I mean.

So that’s my impression of the Volt. It is an interesting vehicle to say the least. One other thing I found interesting is that a 20 amp circuit is needed for charging, a 30 amp is recommended (so you don’t pop a breaker if some other appliance is running on the same circuit), but they are encouraging a 40 circuit to accommodate “future electric vehicles,” and future equipment upgrades. Obviously, there are plans in the works for bigger and better things.

luvmylabs23139
02-12-2011, 05:55 PM
So Blackstone.
What you are saying is that the VOLT would have sucked if you were on Lake Shore Dr. the other week?
Honestly, how practical is this car if you lived in Chicago? I mean how do yu plug in based on the fact that most houses have street parking?

Blackstone
02-12-2011, 06:53 PM
So Blackstone.
What you are saying is that the VOLT would have sucked if you were on Lake Shore Dr. the other week?

Not at all. You always have the gas engine to act as a generator to provide a charge to the battery. As long as you have gas in the tank, you are never without electricity. Even if the battery has been depleted, the car will still operate. The only thing the cold will affect is how far you can go on a charge before the gas engine has to kick on and provide electricity.


Honestly, how practical is this car if you lived in Chicago? I mean how do yu plug in based on the fact that most houses have street parking?

Iím no expert on housing in Chicago, but most modern houses have driveways and/or garages that you can pull the car into. If push comes to shove, you can always run an extension cord from the house to the power cord that plugs into the car, and charge it on the street. People that live in extremely cold climates have been finding ways to plug in their engine block heaters for years. This wouldnít be any different.

Marvin S
02-12-2011, 07:11 PM
Blackstone - Thanks for the informative post! Sadly, it doesn't appear the industry is much further along than when I was working underground.

Blackstone
02-12-2011, 09:25 PM
Blackstone - Thanks for the informative post! Sadly, it doesn't appear the industry is much further along than when I was working underground.

I have to disagree. Battery technology has come a long way in the last few years. They are lighter, more efficient, and hold a charge better. And, it's not just the batteries. There is a tremendous amount of advanced technology involved in making an electric vehicle viable. Five years ago, it would have been impossible to mass produce a vehicle like the Volt or Leaf.

huntinman
02-13-2011, 07:48 AM
Why bother with that when you can get a VW diesel getting 45-50 mpg and you don't have to screw around with plugging them in? A lot less expensive car to boot. Consumer driven market regards

Blackstone
02-13-2011, 12:35 PM
Why bother with that when you can get a VW diesel getting 45-50 mpg and you don't have to screw around with plugging them in? A lot less expensive car to boot. Consumer driven market regards

VW makes a good car, but I try to buy American whenever possible. A comparable size VW Jetta diesel has an EPA rating of 30 city/42 mpg hwy. However, depending on the length of your trip, you can potentially use zero fuel with the Volt. That beats 42 mpg any day.

The whole point is to move away from oil depency, if possible, and to reduce emissions. If I just wanted better fuel economy, I can get 38 mpg hwy. (40 mpg hwy. with a manual trans) with a Chevy Cruze Eco, and it has a larger interior than Jetta, costs less, and I wouldnít have to find stations that sold diesel fuel.

Electrification of cars is new technology. It certainly isnít perfect, but it is evolving. Eventually, you will probably see electric pickups and SUVs. If I can run around town in a Suburban without burning any gas, and still have all of its capacity and capabilities for hunting, fishing and training dogs, Iíll buy one. And, if I can still get about 300 miles on 9 gallons of gas, like I can with Volt, why would I want a VW diesel?

sandyg
02-13-2011, 01:18 PM
Because the VW doesn't cost $42k.
Because electricity comes from somewhere (either coal, natural gas, or nuclear).
Because I'm not creating and then having to do something with the toxins created by making and disposing of a gigantic battery.
If we would "drill baby drill" we wouldn't be dependent on foreign oil.
The Volt will go the way of GM's 1970's 4/6/8 cylinder engine and their Quadrasteer rear axle. It's nothing more than a solution looking for a problem.

huntinman
02-13-2011, 03:41 PM
I recently sold a vw Jetta 5 speed diesel. 50mpg every tank. $20,000 car. I bought it when I had to do a 60 mile commute every day. I no longer do that. I'll tell you though, for the price, low maintenance and dependability, it was tough to beat.

I just came back from Bass Pro in Nashville. They had a Bad Boy Buggy. 4 wheel drive multi seat atv. Electric. had 6 batteries under the seat. For about the same price you can get a polaris ranger gas. The electric vehicle has a range of 16-23 miles. The gas vehicles can go as fas as you want if you carry extra fuel. For most big game hunters out west, I can't see the electric vehicle being an option. I used to go further one way with my Argo than the range of the Bad Boy Buggy. Too bad, because I like the fact that they are quiet.

We are not going to get away from oil & gas any time soon, but if there is a demand for electric (which I really dont see right now) the private market will work it out. We don't need, Obamacare for our vehicles too...

Blackstone
02-13-2011, 04:04 PM
Because the VW doesn't cost $42k.

New technology costs money. It always has and it always will. I remember when a TI scientific calculator cost $100+. Now, they are giving away calculators more powerful than that for opening a bank account. Slide rules were a lot cheaper than calculators, but when is the last time you have seen one in use?


Because electricity comes from somewhere (either coal, natural gas, or nuclear).

Electricity is a lot cheaper than oil, can be produced from a variety of sources domestically, and is pretty much limitless.


Because I'm not creating and then having to do something with the toxins created by making and disposing of a gigantic battery.
If we would "drill baby drill" we wouldn't be dependent on foreign oil.

Most of the battery pack is recyclable. But, I guess you can dispose of the rest of it, and itís toxins, in the same way we dispose of the millions of other batteries and their toxins we create everyday. Of course, we all know there are no environmental hazards associated with drilling for oil, and there are no toxins released from the burning of petroleum products.


The Volt will go the way of GM's 1970's 4/6/8 cylinder engine and their Quadrasteer rear axle. It's nothing more than a solution looking for a problem.

All of those engines and the Quadrasteer axel served their purpose at the time. However, all technology gets replaced as something better comes along. There will be successive generations of electric vehicles until they are replaced by hydrogen vehicles. Electric vehicles are not meant to be the ultimate solution to dependency on oil. They are only meant to be part of the solution. All technology is just a solution looking for a problem until those solutions becomes viable.

Marvin S
02-13-2011, 04:11 PM
The only thing I didnít like about the Volt was the effort it takes to get into the back seat. The rear seats sit atop of part of the battery pack. A man with size 10 Ė 12 feet (or a woman with big feet) will find it difficult to just step into the rear compartment and sit down. You have enough leg room, but you canít get your feet in without turning your foot sideways to step in, then turn your feet straight after you get in, so that your toes fit under the front seats. The other solution is to move the front seats forward, get in, them move the seats back again. Itís kind of hard to explain, but if you try one out at the dealership, you will see what I mean.


I have to disagree. Battery technology has come a long way in the last few years. They are lighter, more efficient, and hold a charge better. And, it's not just the batteries. There is a tremendous amount of advanced technology involved in making an electric vehicle viable. Five years ago, it would have been impossible to mass produce a vehicle like the Volt or Leaf.

While battery technology has come a long way, it's still not there! When one has to wear their car like a girdle not many will be sold. My wife had a ford escort with a diesel - 53 mpg - I would venture that car had less of a footprint than these green cars will have with manufacturing impacts factored in. JMO - again thanks for the post :) .

sandyg
02-13-2011, 04:34 PM
What was the purpose of Quadrasteer and what replaced it?
Two more GM "reversals" were their trend toward digital IP displays in the mid-80s that went the way of the dinosaur and the "heads up" display that projected onto the windshield (never take your eyes off the road again!).

The IC engine isn't going away anytime soon. The refueling infrastructure is in place and it's still a dirt cheap energy source. Electric vehicles have "hidden" pollution and toxin and net energy use issues (the energy cost to make the batteries and motors). It's not the panacea many greenies wish it to be.

As an aside, I stopped hearing how great ethanol is. I wonder why? Gas is $3.15 a gallon and the media isn't making a big deal about the greedy oil companies and their insane profits. I wonder why? Is it because their man (a democrat) is in the WH now and they don't need to make waves in order to get a republican out?

huntinman
02-13-2011, 04:50 PM
What was the purpose of Quadrasteer and what replaced it?
Two more GM "reversals" were their trend toward digital IP displays in the mid-80s that went the way of the dinosaur and the "heads up" display that projected onto the windshield (never take your eyes off the road again!).

The IC engine isn't going away anytime soon. The refueling infrastructure is in place and it's still a dirt cheap energy source. Electric vehicles have "hidden" pollution and toxin and net energy use issues (the energy cost to make the batteries and motors). It's not the panacea many greenies wish it to be.

As an aside, I stopped hearing how great ethanol is. I wonder why? Gas is $3.15 a gallon and the media isn't making a big deal about the greedy oil companies and their insane profits. I wonder why? Is it because their man (a democrat) is in the WH now and they don't need to make waves in order to get a republican out?

spot on the money...

pat addis
02-13-2011, 05:30 PM
how long is the batteries waranty for and how much do they cost to replace?

T. Mac
02-13-2011, 05:35 PM
...

As an aside, I stopped hearing how great ethanol is. I wonder why? Gas is $3.15 a gallon and the media isn't making a big deal about the greedy oil companies and their insane profits. I wonder why? Is it because their man (a democrat) is in the WH now and they don't need to make waves in order to get a republican out?

Although it looks like they are getting a bit more sneaky with it! Stopped at a COSTCO to refuel a week ago and noticed that their pumps were sporting a brand new little label stating that their gas was now 10% etoh!! No other signage or warning anywhere else. Talking to the station manager, he said the ptb want them to up the content to 15% by the end of summer.

T. Mac

Blackstone
02-13-2011, 05:52 PM
What was the purpose of Quadrasteer and what replaced it?

It was useful feature to people who tow regularly or people that needed to manuver in tight spaces. It let you turn your vehicle in much tighter spaces than you could with a regular steering system. The problem was it was expensive when it was introduced (about $5,600), so it didnít catch on enough to make it profitable for GM. The funny thing is everyone I talked to that had one, loved it. Many railroads liked it because it let them manuver full-size trucks in tight rail yards. Nothing has come to replace it yet, but that doesnít mean it wasnít a good idea.


Two more GM "reversals" were their trend toward digital IP displays in the mid-80s that went the way of the dinosaur and the "heads up" display that projected onto the windshield (never take your eyes off the road again!).

I am not sure what the digital IP displays are you are talking about, but a lot of technology has come and gone since the 80s. Heads Up Display is still available some GM models. In fact, GM is working on a more sophisticated system to be introduced in the future.


The IC engine isn't going away anytime soon. The refueling infrastructure is in place and it's still a dirt cheap energy source. Electric vehicles have "hidden" pollution and toxin and net energy use issues (the energy cost to make the batteries and motors). It's not the panacea many greenies wish it to be.

No one is saying the IC motor is doomed anytime soon, but it is going to be used less going forward. As I previously stated, electric vehicles are not meant to be an ultimate solution.

In case you hadnít noticed, every car with an IC engine has a battery too, so we are already producing those ďhiddenĒ pollutions and toxins, and we seem to be dealing with them. And, IC engines are not made in a vacuum. There are energy costs to make those motors as well.


As an aside, I stopped hearing how great ethanol is. I wonder why? Gas is $3.15 a gallon and the media isn't making a big deal about the greedy oil companies and their insane profits. I wonder why? Is it because their man (a democrat) is in the WH now and they don't need to make waves in order to get a republican out?

Large oil companies and their supporters waged a pretty successful negative propaganda campaign against E85, so many of those that supported it have gone quiet. However, E85 is still around. I just fill up with a tank of it Friday. But that is a prime example of how fickle the American consumer is. They say they want to reduce dependency on foreign oil, yet they wonít use a product that reduces oil consumption by almost 85% because it doesnít burn as efficiently as gas, and they are afraid they might end up spending a little more money.

Blackstone
02-13-2011, 05:59 PM
how long is the batteries waranty for and how much do they cost to replace?

The battery and its electrical powertrain components of the Volt are warranted for 8 years/100,000 miles. I have not heard how much the batteries cost to replace, but I'm sure they are pretty expensive. They will probably get cheaper as more are built, and be considerably cheaper by the time you have to replace one.

Uncle Bill
02-13-2011, 06:00 PM
If the last cold snap wasn't enough to make anyone buying an electric car wary, especially if they lived anywhere north of the equator, then I say...HAVE AT IT, YOU IMBECILES.

What has yet to be even 'thought about' by the greenies is along the lines of the drop in smokers and the lost tax revenue. For some time now, the tobacco nazis have been putting a stop to all forms of tobacco use, and the states no longer reap all that $$$$ from the 'filthy' smokers.

Just think of the taxes various states will lose when there are no more 'gas' stations to gouge the drivers driving those unclean filthy gasaholic mosheens. Has anyone considered the ramifications of the gazillions of dollars raised with each gallon pumped by those nasty guzzlers?

I can hear the lefties now...whining and moaning about how unfair big oil was, as they took their product and ran, and didn't consider how badly it would affect all the environmental whackos and their ilk.

WAKE UP AMERICA. THE LOSERS ARE IN THE PROCESS OF KILLING A ONCE GREAT NATION, AND YOU LINGUINI-SPINED SOCIALISTS ARE NOTHING BUT A BATCH OF SHEEP, ALLOWING IT ALL TO HAPPEN.

UB

Blackstone
02-13-2011, 06:05 PM
I recently sold a vw Jetta 5 speed diesel. 50mpg every tank. $20,000 car. I bought it when I had to do a 60 mile commute every day. I no longer do that. I'll tell you though, for the price, low maintenance and dependability, it was tough to beat.

I'm not sure what year your VW was. I had heard you could get 50 mpg, but they don't get that kind of mileage on their new models. Even the Golf diesel is only rated at 42 mpg hwy. Perhaps the reduction in mileage is caused by emissions equipment and requirements.

Blackstone
02-13-2011, 06:14 PM
If the last cold snap wasn't enough to make anyone buying an electric car wary, especially if they lived anywhere north of the equator, then I say...HAVE AT IT, YOU IMBECILES.

What has yet to be even 'thought about' by the greenies is along the lines of the drop in smokers and the lost tax revenue. For some time now, the tobacco nazis have been putting a stop to all forms of tobacco use, and the states no longer reap all that $$$$ from the 'filthy' smokers.

Just think of the taxes various states will lose when there are no more 'gas' stations to gouge the drivers driving those unclean filthy gasaholic mosheens. Has anyone considered the ramifications of the gazillions of dollars raised with each gallon pumped by those nasty guzzlers?

I can hear the lefties now...whining and moaning about how unfair big oil was, as they took their product and ran, and didn't consider how badly it would affect all the environmental whackos and their ilk.

WAKE UP AMERICA. THE LOSERS ARE IN THE PROCESS OF KILLING A ONCE GREAT NATION, AND YOU LINGUINI-SPINED SOCIALISTS ARE NOTHING BUT A BATCH OF SHEEP, ALLOWING IT ALL TO HAPPEN.

UB

I drove the Volt in 10 degree weather in Chicago, and the cold wasn't a problem. I drove about 60 miles all total, and burned less than a gallon of gas. Maybe it's not as imbecilic as you think.

I thought you were against taxation and big government. Now you are defending taxation and worried about not collecting enough taxes? :confused:

sandyg
02-13-2011, 06:15 PM
Blackstone, please don't talk down to me ("In case you hadnít noticed, every car with an IC engine has a battery too").
I started my career with Pontiac Motors in 1982 and I've been in the automotive field ever since. I have a masters in mechanical engineering and I'm a professional engineer so I know a little bit about which I speak.
You say you work for GM so of course you love the Volt! I haven't met a GM employee yet who doesn't. The hype in Detroit was incredible over the Volt. All I can say is that if the public was clamoring for it (other than those who have to have it first for bragging rights) the government wouldn't have to use my tax dollars to subsidize it.
I have a Chevy Impala that can use E85 and I will never put it in my car. I have a real problem with an industry that uses two gallons of fuel to get one gallon of corn oil to the pump. Corn is for eating and making bourbon, NOT burning up in an IC engine when there's perfectly good crude to be refined.

Uncle Bill
02-13-2011, 07:09 PM
I drove the Volt in 10 degree weather in Chicago, and the cold wasn't a problem. I drove about 60 miles all total, and burned less than a gallon of gas. Maybe it's not as imbecilic as you think.

I thought you were against taxation and big government. Now you are defending taxation and worried about not collecting enough taxes? :confused:


I can hardly wait for the "imbecile" in a volt to become stranded like the family that spent 3 days in their gas burning vehicle. They survived because they judiciously ran the heater in spurts, starting and stopping the engine.

How long would you last in your "VOLT" Mr Blackstone?

Face it, your 'pride and joy' is just a motor vehicle tinker toy, designed primarily for the nearby worker to jog back and forth in. It's another version of the pregnant rollar skate we've seen for years, only this time it's dangerous because the GREENIES are making it happen at the expense of what this nation really needs.

As to your last "imbecillic" comment, you have again missed the point...that being you environmental jerks push for all this feel good crap, assuring your fellow airheads that what you are accomplishing is all good and necessary. But when they find out, as that Obama teen mama did, when Obama didn't pay for her gasoline, or her baby's clothing, and she was heart broken.

My concern about the loss of taxation revenue should you environmentalists take over the country, is you don't even think about it. You are too damned ignorant to face reality and recognize the fallout and disasters that occur because of your do-gooder policies. And when the crap hits the fan, do you expect to pick up the mess? Hell no, you are off promoting the next environmental joke to prop up your egos.

Every time your crowd dreams up some new era save-the-nation-idea, we taxpayers can expect to drop our drawers and bend over. When the gas taxes fall below what states can live with, do they look to the environmental whackos to compensate for the difference? Nope. It's time to pass another hike in real estate taxes, or sales taxes, so we make sure those union pension funds are paid, and those pie-in-the-sky promises are kept.

When you see the federal unionists marching because many of their pensions and jobs are being cut, think they are going after the legislatures that put a kybosh on smoking in their state, causing that revenue source to drop by several millions. Hellsbells, many of those marchers are smoking. Do they lobby their representative to stop with the new laws? Nope, they just go across state lines and buy cartons by the case because that state hasn't raised their taxes $2 bucks a pack ...yet.

As I've stated many times, it always depends on who's ox is being gored.

When the gas tax revenues are way down, will the Volt drivers pony up extra, so the roads can be cleared of snow???...or repaired by the underpaid union fed worker, who's now so overworked because all his buddies have been layed off due to budget constraints?

Actions have consequences, Mr. Blackstone. The environmental movement has pretty much wiped out the timber industry in this nation. It's working hard on the auto industry and mining industry, and oil industry.

Your sacrificial lamb of an electric car is a joke, and we all know it. It ranks right up there with windmill electricity, and solar panels. If it was all so importantly wonderful, why doesn't it become the way of life the liberals are craving? And please don't annoy me with that teacher's union tripe of needing more money. Doesn't matter how much is thrown down that empty hole, it will never be enough.

In fact it's time to see how much less this socialistic experiment can do without. After all, the other nations attempting this experiment are having to go through it also, and they are finding out the PC crowd has led them down the path to ruin. Time for a huge change. Hope you didn't buy into the last one.

UB

Blackstone
02-13-2011, 07:32 PM
Blackstone, please don't talk down to me ("In case you hadnít noticed, every car with an IC engine has a battery too").
I started my career with Pontiac Motors in 1982 and I've been in the automotive field ever since. I have a masters in mechanical engineering and I'm a professional engineer so I know a little bit about which I speak.
You say you work for GM so of course you love the Volt! I haven't met a GM employee yet who doesn't. The hype in Detroit was incredible over the Volt. All I can say is that if the public was clamoring for it (other than those who have to have it first for bragging rights) the government wouldn't have to use my tax dollars to subsidize it.
I have a Chevy Impala that can use E85 and I will never put it in my car. I have a real problem with an industry that uses two gallons of fuel to get one gallon of corn oil to the pump. Corn is for eating and making bourbon, NOT burning up in an IC engine when there's perfectly good crude to be refined.

I apologize if you took my tone to be condescending. I just found it ironic that you continued to harp on the hidden costs, pollutants and toxin created by the production of electric engines and batteries, but failed to acknowledge that the production of IC engines and cars produce their own hidden costs, pollutants and toxins. I donít know if electric vehicles produce more, but if you want to compare apples to apples, you have to compare both vehicles equally.

I never said I loved the Volt. I think it is a very interesting vehicle, and a first step in the right direction to reducing dependence on oil (forgien and domestic). However, I do not plan to buy one. It doesnít fit my lifestyle. But, like I said, if they can build similar technology into a full-size SUV or full-size pickup, Iíll be in line to get one.

Is the government subsidizing electric vehicles with your tax dollars, or giving buyers a tax credit? There is a difference.

huntinman
02-13-2011, 07:50 PM
I'm not sure what year your VW was. I had heard you could get 50 mpg, but they don't get that kind of mileage on their new models. Even the Golf diesel is only rated at 42 mpg hwy. Perhaps the reduction in mileage is caused by emissions equipment and requirements.

2003


.

sandyg
02-13-2011, 07:53 PM
I apologize if you took my tone to be condescending. I just found it ironic that you continued to harp on the hidden costs, pollutants and toxin created by the production of electric engines and batteries, but failed to acknowledge that the production of IC engines and cars produce their own hidden costs, pollutants and toxins. I donít know if electric vehicles produce more, but if you want to compare apples to apples, you have to compare both vehicles equally.

I never said I loved the Volt. I think it is a very interesting vehicle, and a first step in the right direction to reducing dependence on oil (forgien and domestic). However, I do not plan to buy one. It doesnít fit my lifestyle. But, like I said, if they can build similar technology into a full-size SUV or full-size pickup, Iíll be in line to get one.

Is the government subsidizing electric vehicles with your tax dollars, or giving buyers a tax credit? There is a difference.

I am comparing both vehicles equally. The Volt has an IC engine, batteries, and electric motors. Replace the batteries and motors with IC engine based transaxle and you would be money and energy ahead. But then you would have a standard Malibu, not a half-assed electric car.

I know the difference between a tax rebate and a credit (once again, condescending). This is a rebate. Take from my pocket and give to the Volt buyer. Sen. Stabenow (D-MI) has a bill to give the $7500 rebate to the buyer at the time of sale, instead of waiting until this year's tax refund check. I don't think that happened when people bought the first $100 TI calculator in the 1970's.

Buzz
02-13-2011, 07:56 PM
Because the VW doesn't cost $42k.
Because electricity comes from somewhere (either coal, natural gas, or nuclear).
Because I'm not creating and then having to do something with the toxins created by making and disposing of a gigantic battery.
If we would "drill baby drill" we wouldn't be dependent on foreign oil.
The Volt will go the way of GM's 1970's 4/6/8 cylinder engine and their Quadrasteer rear axle. It's nothing more than a solution looking for a problem.


Isn't that exactly the point of electric vehicles? Anyone who thinks it's all about green, as in an environmentalist's wet dream, is missing the point. Electric plug-ins is way more about bringing other fuels into the transportation mix and reducing the amount of oil burned for that purpose. Unless you think you can fuel your car with coal or plutonium directly.

No, the IC engine won't be going anywhere fast. The horse drawn carriage and buggy whip didn't go away overnight either.

Does anyone really believe that "drill baby drill" will get us off of the foreign oil, ever?

Blackstone, you must be younger than me. My first Ti calculator with basic scientific functions on it cast me near $350. The last HP I bought cost me about $250.

Blackstone
02-13-2011, 08:06 PM
I can hardly wait for the "imbecile" in a volt to become stranded like the family that spent 3 days in their gas burning vehicle. They survived because they judiciously ran the heater in spurts, starting and stopping the engine.

How long would you last in your "VOLT" Mr Blackstone?

Considering the Volt only uses itís gas engine to provide electricity for the battery, and on average, you can go 330 miles on 9.3 gallons of gas, unless the family in questions had a vehicle that got more than 35 mpg, I probably would have outlasted them.


Face it, your 'pride and joy' is just a motor vehicle tinker toy, designed primarily for the nearby worker to jog back and forth in. It's another version of the pregnant rollar skate we've seen for years, only this time it's dangerous because the GREENIES are making it happen at the expense of what this nation really needs.

Well, if you consider a 370 mile range a jog back and forth to work, I guess youíre right. However, most people donít commute that far back and forth to work. And, obviously you missed, or didnít understand, the part about just putting in more gas to go as far as you want to.

I wonít even bother to address the rest of your rant. It is meaningless, and has nothing to do with the vehicle I was talking about. Although, I would like to say that your proclivity for childish name calling does little to prove your point, and makes it impossible for me take you seriously. I would be offended, but considering the source why bother? When you mature enough to have a ďbig boyĒ conversation (which I doubt will ever happen), let me know, and maybe we can actually have an intelligent discussion.

Blackstone
02-13-2011, 11:15 PM
I am comparing both vehicles equally. The Volt has an IC engine, batteries, and electric motors. Replace the batteries and motors with IC engine based transaxle and you would be money and energy ahead. But then you would have a standard Malibu, not a half-assed electric car.

I know the difference between a tax rebate and a credit (once again, condescending). This is a rebate. Take from my pocket and give to the Volt buyer. Sen. Stabenow (D-MI) has a bill to give the $7500 rebate to the buyer at the time of sale, instead of waiting until this year's tax refund check. I don't think that happened when people bought the first $100 TI calculator in the 1970's.

Gee, Sandyg, you're a little touchy, aren't you? I was asking a question, not being condescending. I didn't know if it was a tax credit or a subsidy. Although, I looked it up and found it is only proposed legislation at this point. It may not even pass. She tried it once before, and it went nowhere.

My point with the calculator is that with advancements in technology and economies of scale, makes technology cheaper and viable. Electric vehicles will likely get cheaper as well. Eventually, an electric vehicle may not be any more expensive than that VW diesel.

Some of the initial cost will still be offset by using considerably less gas and oil, especially as gas prices continue to increase.

You may not like the Volt or any other form of alternative fuel vehicle, but drill baby drill is not going to do anything to solve the long term energy problems we face. It would only serve to prolong the inevitable.

luvmylabs23139
02-14-2011, 09:18 AM
Gee, Sandyg, you're a little touchy, aren't you? I was asking a question, not being condescending. I didn't know if it was a tax credit or a subsidy. Although, I looked it up and found it is only proposed legislation at this point.
.

Actually you are wrong. Obama is proposing changing tax credits to dealer rebates.
For tax year 2009 a tax credit was in effect. Of course prisoners and IRS agents claimed these even though they did not have an eligable car.
" The inspector general found that 29 prisoners received $49,926 in vehicle credits even though they were incarcerated throughout 2009."

huntinman
02-14-2011, 09:25 AM
Actually you are wrong. Obama is proposing changing tax credits to dealer rebates.
For tax year 2009 a tax credit was in effect. Of course prisoners and IRS agents claimed these even though they did not have an eligable car.
" The inspector general found that 29 prisoners received $49,926 in vehicle credits even though they were incarcerated throughout 2009."

They probaly voted as well along with most of the dead people in Chicago!

luvmylabs23139
02-14-2011, 09:27 AM
I just checked for 2010, as yes it is a tax credit
of up to 7500.

Blackstone
02-14-2011, 11:09 AM
Actually you are wrong. Obama is proposing changing tax credits to dealer rebates.
For tax year 2009 a tax credit was in effect. Of course prisoners and IRS agents claimed these even though they did not have an eligable car.
" The inspector general found that 29 prisoners received $49,926 in vehicle credits even though they were incarcerated throughout 2009."

The bill Stabinow proposed hasnít been passed yet. This is the 2nd time she proposed it. It may have more support this time. I donít like the rebate idea, but Iím okay with the tax credit. I know the rebate would attract more buyers, but the Gov. shouldnít be in the rebate business.

That's what crooks do. They're always looking to beat the system. That's why they're in jail.

huntinman
02-14-2011, 01:24 PM
The bill Stabinow proposed hasnít been passed yet. This is the 2nd time she proposed it. It may have more support this time. I donít like the rebate idea, but Iím okay with the tax credit. I know the rebate would attract more buyers, but the Gov. shouldnít be in the rebate business.

That's what crooks do. They're always looking to beat the system. That's why they're in jail.

Not all of them are in jail, some of them are in congress and the senate.