PDA

View Full Version : Governor Scott Walker



Pages : [1] 2 3

Sue Kiefer
02-16-2011, 07:01 PM
Has he taken the wrong approach to cutting the budget???
Looking for your opinions.
I have family members that are teachers but on the other hand...............
Sue

Marvin S
02-16-2011, 07:25 PM
Has he taken the wrong approach to cutting the budget???
Looking for your opinions.
I have family members that are teachers but on the other hand...............
Sue

I don't know what his total approach is but, there is a reason for a money shortage & with governments it is usually because wages are out of line with the effort to obtain that position & the product delivered. I won't even bring up their benefits.

I do not believe public employees should be able to unionize as they don't know when to stop whining for more while doing less. Teaching is just one example, their resistance to change is amazing. In WA they bargain at the local level, are vicious in their treatment of those who push back. then go to the legislature to obtain more & if that don't work they do an initiative to the people where they do a lot of lying. With teachers the kids are just pawns to get what they want, in most cases. BTW, many in my family were teachers, some are now, but not the same quality. I've had this argument with a cousin who is a school principal & she was not happy at my resistance. I do not think most teachers are special though on occasion some are! Being able to retire after 30 years is an awful sweet deal for all public employees.

I applaud the Gov for what he is doing, it looks like he got the message :cool:.

Doug Kennedy
02-16-2011, 10:02 PM
Marvin, on 9/11 and people were running from the Twin Towers ,who were making alot of money...tell me those running in didn't earn their their Public money(or their Heirs)

starjack
02-17-2011, 03:09 AM
Marvin, on 9/11 and people were running from the Twin Towers ,who were making alot of money...tell me those running in didn't earn their their Public money(or their Heirs)

Mabey that is why police and fireman are exempt.

road kill
02-17-2011, 05:57 AM
Scott Walker was elected in a LANDSLIDE!!!!

Everyone knew/knows what he is about!

He is asking state employees to pay 12.6% of their healthcare coverage (currently they contribute 5%) and contribute half of their retirement (currently they contribute 0)
That is a dollar for dollar match to retirement.

Walker also told the Unions and state employers that the state will no longer foot the bill for deducting union dues and send them to the unions.
They will now collect their own dues on their own dime.

Does this really seem that unreasonable??

No pay cuts, no benefit cuts, no layoffs.

This is what the majority of the voters in WI voted for.
It's just a start.

It's funny, the progressives that want those that have (the rich) to pay more squeal like stuck pigs when their freebies get touched.




RK

Sue Kiefer
02-17-2011, 07:03 AM
I pretty much am confused why there is such an uproar as well.
I didn't vote at the last election.
I felt I didn't know enough about the candidates so........................
Just in case anyone is confused about what 'Public" employees are/Not effected...........
No police or firepeople are effected.
Glad that I don't have a student in the Madison area. Schools were closed because teachers decided that it was in the best interest of their students to protest on the state capitol for their selfish self than getting paid to do their jobs.:-x
Wish that I could just say screw it I'm taking the day off and protest.
Oh wait I can't I'm self employed.Putting money in my own insurance,401K plan..........giving myself a raise ya right.:rolleyes:
Sue

Sharon Potter
02-17-2011, 07:29 AM
Funny thing about budget cuts and change....everybody wants it, as long as it doesn't affect them. I think Walker is on the right track.

Buzz
02-17-2011, 08:00 AM
I think Walker has one thing in mind. Bust the unions, period.

Goose
02-17-2011, 08:01 AM
Good luck to the governor...I hope he's successful because eventually our children and grandchildren are going to say FU to their parents because why should they pay for all the ridiculous promises they made to themselves....social security and on down the line.

Look at Barack's home state of Illinois. They're trying to float a $3.7 billion State GO to finance their woefully underfunded (and bankrupt) public pension plan. Somebody there in Illinois referred to it as 'responsible borrowing':) How great is that. Why would anybody under 35 years old want to live in that state? I sure as hell wouldn't. All your money is taxed to fund the lifestyle of somebody else. What's left for them?

For that matter, why would anybody under 35 want to live in this country? $14 trillion in debt, $1.5 trillion budget deficits forever, 25% unemployment, bankrupt states, bankrupt public pensions and a President who chows down on kobe beef twice a week while the rest of the country is on food stamps or overseas fighting a ridiculous war that he continues to support. What kind of future is that?

We live in Cuba now.

road kill
02-17-2011, 08:04 AM
I think Walker has one thing in mind. Bust the unions, period.

No chance he is trying to correct wasteful spending and balance the budget??

Maybe you should do a little reading before you make generalized, baseless accusations.

And....he is doing exactly what he said he would do.


RK

Jason Glavich
02-17-2011, 08:14 AM
In a small town in Ohio they have a teachers union as well, they contribute nothing to retirement,3% to their healthcare and are guarenteed 5% raise everyyear. This town has a school tax seperate from income tax. They tried to pass a levy to get the money to fund the school or it will close within the next 3 years. It did not pass and why did it not pass? Just a few reasons, 1st they aready took away bussing for all high school students 9-12 in a rural farm community, 2 There is a principal for each of 3 schools that also has 2 dean of students and 2 vice principals for a typical graduating class of 100. The lowest paid Dean in the Elem school makes 93k, sadly he is still making less than some of the teachers with "tenure". The test scores are dropping, teachers can't teach when they are not paid properly don't ya know.

So after the levy fails to raise the school tax the teachers tell the students "Thanks to your parents your school is going to close because your parents are selfish and your gonna have to go to another school." Yes this was said and not just a rumor, big deal in a little town.

I pay plenty for my retirement and my healthcare, I do not complain about it. I do not always get a raise, and if I don't I realize it was because I did not perfom above what was expected and I know I need to work harder to get my raise and earn my keep.

On a side note the school also hired 35 "Paraprofessionals" to help the teachers teach.

From what i read he is doing what he said he would...sort of I guess. Maybe he has the right idea.

Ken Bora
02-17-2011, 08:19 AM
I think Walker has one thing in mind. Bust the unions, period.

hmmmmmm........... and that is a bad thing ????






.

Blackstone
02-17-2011, 11:21 AM
Scott Walker was elected in a LANDSLIDE!!!!

Everyone knew/knows what he is about!

He is asking state employees to pay 12.6% of their healthcare coverage (currently they contribute 5%) and contribute half of their retirement (currently they contribute 0)
That is a dollar for dollar match to retirement.

Walker also told the Unions and state employers that the state will no longer foot the bill for deducting union dues and send them to the unions.
They will now collect their own dues on their own dime.

Does this really seem that unreasonable??

No pay cuts, no benefit cuts, no layoffs.

This is what the majority of the voters in WI voted for.
It's just a start.

It's funny, the progressives that want those that have (the rich) to pay more squeal like stuck pigs when their freebies get touched.

RK

Increasing healthcare costs by 7.6% has the same effect as a pay cut. It takes money out of your pocket.

That being said, if those actions are necessary to make WI a fiscally responsible state, then he’s probably doing the right thing. However, I don’t think any state employee should be exempt. I have the utmost respect for police and firemen, but they should have to bite the bullet as well.

I agree with Sharon, “Funny thing about budget cuts and change....everybody wants it, as long as it doesn't affect them.” I wonder how many of the teachers protesting voted for Walker.

road kill
02-17-2011, 11:25 AM
Unions Want to Overturn Election Result

Say you generally liked Gov. Scott Walker's move to rein in government labor costs but had a few doubts on his method. The last few days should have cleared that up nicely.

The public-sector union tantrums, meant to make lawmakers wobble, have an inadvertent message for the rest of us: Voters can vote all they want. We can elect a cheapskate governor and a Legislature to match. But come the moment, unions will have the last, loudest word.

They'll have it if takes marches. They'll have it if it takes what amounts to an illegal strike, with so many Madison teachers calling in sick Wednesday that the district closed schools. If it takes showing up for a we-know-where-your-family-is protest on Walker's Wauwatosa lawn while he was at work, the unions are sure they can outshout any election result.

This is exactly why Walker is right to limit the unions' power over government spending.

Walker, remember, is not removing unions' fundamental power to bargain for wages. He is demanding that state workers put 5.8% of their wages toward retirement and that they cover 12.6% of their health care premiums, which would still have them paying more than $100 less a month than the average schmoe. He is also proposing that elected officials determine the shape of employee benefits without having to bargain them, and this as much as the added cost has unions crying "unfair."

They insist this is the end of unionization in government, something to which they have as much right, they say, as anyone else.

But they miss a bedrock difference. Unions in the private sector are a way of organizing private interests, those of employees, against other private interests, those of a company's owners, for economic gain and for protection against unfairness. In government, workers are already protected against unfairness by civil service laws, and Walker has supported expanding those. Economically, government unions pit a private interest, that of employees, against the public's interest, that of taxpayers and voters.

We see the result. Walker's moves are prompted by the state's vast deficit. The alternative, he says, is to lay off thousands. Nonsense, charge the marchers: Just raise taxes. Unions and allies have for years been demanding more sales taxes, new business taxes and higher taxes on other people's incomes, all to keep the state flush and generous. We're taxed enough already, said a voting majority in November. Not yet, insist the unions that have become the largest players in Wisconsin politics precisely to counter any such voter sentiment.

Anyway, union leaders were conceding the pension and health care premiums by this week. They said they knew they'd have to pay more eventually - so when unions in December said such payments were tantamount to slavery, it must have been just maneuvering. Bygones, say unions, as long as Walker leaves them the power to set health benefits via bargaining. Leave that, they say, and it's peace.

Yeah? Recall how we got here. How is it that only in desperation will unions accept a deal that still leaves them better off than everyone else? How did we achieve not just next year's $3.3 billion deficit but the decade of structural deficits before? Easy: It's because labor costs for years have been outstripping taxpayers' capacity. That in turn was caused by officials, elected in a union-dominated political environment, buying labor peace via benefits, where it's harder for voters to see the costs adding up.

If the Legislature takes the 5% and 12% and doesn't reform collective bargaining, the 5% and 12% soon will be won back by unions. Any further savings are out the window. Walker talks of moving to consumer-driven benefits, as many companies have done, to restrain medical costs. That's anathema to unions, who will resist it contract by contract. Without bargaining reform, government costs will have taken only a pause in their ascent.

Union activists in Madison Tuesday spoke apocalyptically of "class war," hinting wildly at general strikes and takeovers of the Capitol. They correctly see their control of the state slipping and must figure that if they bring 13,000 shouting people to Madison, they can overrule the election.

Any worried legislators should keep in mind that Walker drew about five times that many votes in Dane County alone in November.
__________________________________________________ _________

Pretty accurate description of what is going on in Madison WI.
As liberal a towne as exists in the USA.
It appears there will be a vote today, and the AYEs have it!!!!


RK

Uncle Bill
02-17-2011, 12:26 PM
Isn't it amazing what happens when....

1) YOUR ox is being gored!...and..

2) You run out of other peoples money.


UB

luvmylabs23139
02-17-2011, 12:30 PM
Now all the dem senators refused to show up for the vote. The police are now out searching for them. This will be interesting.

paul young
02-17-2011, 12:39 PM
Isn't it amazing what happens when....

1) YOUR ox is being gored!...and..

2) You run out of other peoples money.


UB

yes, and it would be wonderful for state and federal elected officials find out for themselves first hand.

when THAT happens, please call my attention to it. the health benefits, salaries and pensions for our elected officials never seem to make the list of proposed cuts. i wonder why that is? it must be just an oversight that will be addressed tomorrow......

'ol Scott's got his.

as long as the people of Wisconsin are ok with what he does it's ok by me. it's their state and he's the guy they elected.-Paul

road kill
02-17-2011, 12:54 PM
Now all the dem senators refused to show up for the vote. The police are now out searching for them. This will be interesting.

Yep....nothing but the good of the people in mind.
This BTW shows the true issue.

COWARDS!!!


RK

Sue Kiefer
02-17-2011, 01:02 PM
Aliens got em:grab:
Sue

road kill
02-17-2011, 01:04 PM
It is being reported that several Democratic Senators have "left the state."

According to the WI State Constitution, the Sgt At Arms can call for these Senators and use state law enforcement to bring them in.

Now, why do you think these elected officials would cut and run???


stan b

Goose
02-17-2011, 01:15 PM
It is being reported that several Democratic Senators have "left the state."

According to the WI State Constitution, the Sgt At Arms can call for these Senators and use state law enforcement to bring them in.

Now, why do you think these elected officials would cut and run???


stan b

Democrats will go the way of the dodo bird if they can't take your money and give it to somebody else. What good is a democrat without that power?

Good luck up there:) The rest of the country will see it soon enough. Just wait until it reaches a city like Chicago. Keep your pantry stocked...if you can afford to.

We live in Cuba now.

road kill
02-17-2011, 01:39 PM
Turns out ALL the state of WI Senators did the 2 step and did not show up for a scheduled vote today!!

JFK ("Profiles in Courage") would be proud.



RK

Buzz
02-17-2011, 01:41 PM
Turns out ALL the state of WI Senators did the 2 step and did not show up for a scheduled vote today!!

JFK ("Profiles in Courage") would be proud.



RK

What the heck are you talking about?

They are cowards for not showing up? Really? That's why the didn't show, because they're cowards? :rolleyes:

road kill
02-17-2011, 01:46 PM
Wisconsin Democratic Lawmakers Run!!!

Madison — Law enforcement officers are searching for Democratic senators boycotting a Senate vote on Gov. Scott Walker's budget-repair plan Thursday in an attempt to bring the lawmakers to the floor to allow Republicans to move forward with action on the bill.

One Democratic senator said that he believed at least most of the members of his caucus are in another state. At least one, however, Sen. Chris Larson (D-Milwaukee) said he was still in his Capitol office listening to constituents.

In a press conference just off the Senate floor, Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald (R-Juneau) said that Democrats were "not showing up for work" and that police were searching for them to bring them to the floor.

"That's not democracy. That's not what this chamber is about," Fitzgerald said of the boycott to reporters.

Sen. Tim Cullen (D-Janesville) confirmed Thursday that Democrats are boycotting the Senate action on the bill in efforts to block a quorum and keep the measure from passing. Because 20 senators of the 33-member house are needed to be present to pass a fiscal bill, the body's 19 Republicans will not be enough to pass the budget repair bill without at least one Democrat present.

"They can't pass this bill if there's not a Democrat in the chamber," Cullen said.

Cullen said he believed most of the Democrats were now outside Wisconsin, though he declined to say where.

"I think they're all out of state. I am anyway," Cullen said.

Speculation in the Capitol pointed to Illinois as the state where Democrats had headed.

Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller (D-Monona) released a statement calling on Republicans to listen to unions and protesters calling for changes to the bill, which would cut benefits and almost all union bargaining rights for public employees.

"Democrats believe it is wrong to strip people of their right to have a say in the conditions of their employment and to use state law to bust unions," Miller said. "These people deserve to be heard and their rights ought to be respected."

Cullen said Democrats hope delaying the bill will give more time for union demonstrators to win over any possible wavering Republicans. He said the decision was made by other Democrats at a meeting at which he was not present.

Fitzgerald said he believed the last time such an action had happened was in the mid-1990s when the Assembly was at odds over a bill to help finance Miller Park. He said he was not sure how much authority law enforcement officials would have to compel Democrats to show up.

The tactic wasn't winning over Sen. Rob Cowles (R-Green Bay), a moderate whom unions had been trying to court to vote against the bill. Cowles called the blockage of the Senate vote an attempt to "shut down democracy."

The Senate convened at 11:30, with 17 Republicans but no Democrats present. After a prayer and the pledge of allegiance, action was immediately disrupted by demonstrators in the gallery shouting, "Freedom, democracy, unions."

Senate President Mike Ellis (R-Neenah) made a call of the house to bring the three additional senators needed to vote on the bill to the Senate floor.

If a Democrat does show up for the vote, a handful of GOP senators will decide the fate of Walker's bill.

The Senate is meeting amid massive demonstrations that have so packed the Capitol that movement outside the Senate chambers is difficult at best.

Spokesmen for the Republican governor and Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald (R-Juneau) said they were confident that the GOP lawmakers had the votes they needed to pass the bill without further changes. Walker has said that the proposal's cuts to worker benefits and to decades-old union bargaining laws are needed to help balance the state's gaping budget shortfall in this year and the next two.

Republicans control the Senate 19-14, meaning they can lose only two votes and still pass the bill if all Democrats oppose it. Some Republicans have shown reluctance about the bill, though so far none have said publicly that they will vote against it.

Even after voting for the proposal in the Legislature's budget committee just before midnight Wednesday, Sen. Luther Olsen (R-Ripon) showed his concern about the effects of the proposal on workers.

"I will probably vote for it" on the Senate floor, Olsen said.

On a 12-4 party-line vote Wednesday, the Joint Finance Committee added new civil-service protections for local government employees and kept cuts to public worker benefits. The budget committee began debating the bill at 7:45 p.m. Wednesday, after Republicans spent hours behind closed doors crafting the changes. The Senate and Assembly could now act on it as early as Thursday.

"This will pass in that form," Fitzgerald said.




The changes the committee adopted would require all local governments to create civil-service systems similar to the one for the state. It would also allow limited-term employees to keep their benefits. Some limited-term employees have worked for the state for years, and the original version of the bill would have taken away all their health care coverage and retirement benefits.

The debate in the committee was impassioned and at times emotional.

"People have said they're willing to sacrifice. Why are we going after people's rights?" asked Rep. Tamara Grigsby (D-Milwaukee).

But Rep. John Nygren (R-Marinette), whose wife is a teacher, said he believed the bill was needed to ensure schools are run efficiently.

"What about the right of the taxpayer to run a frugal school district?" Nygren said.

The changes did not appease the thousands of teachers and state workers who have filled the Capitol for two days.

They booed loudly as they learned the bill still would take away their union rights as they watched the committee proceedings on televisions mounted in the Capitol Rotunda.

"I think it's disgusting," said John Bausch, a Darlington music teacher in elementary and middle school.

"This is not what Wisconsin is all about. We've had collective bargaining for (50) years and to throw it all out without our say is a disgrace."

More are expected to come to the Capitol after Mary Bell, president of the Wisconsin Education Association Council, urged teachers and other Wisconsin residents to come to Madison on Thursday and Friday. She stopped short of asking teachers to walk off their jobs.

In Milwaukee, Superintendent Gregory E. Thornton said teachers are expected to be at work Thursday and Friday, and failure to do so, without a valid excuse, will result in disciplinary action.

WEAC's effort came as Madison schools closed Wednesday because more than 40% of teachers called in sick so they could lobby legislators. Madison schools will be closed Thursday for the same reason. Other districts also were considering closing.

Walker, who proposed the bill, said he was "disappointed" with the action by the Madison teachers and that he appreciates that other public employees are showing up for work. He said he respects workers' right to demonstrate but that he is "not intimidated into thinking that they're the only voices out there."

In a sign of the national attention the proposal is drawing, U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan has scheduled a telephone call with Walker for Thursday, said Jim Bradshaw, a spokesman for the federal agency. The Associated Press reported Duncan said Wednesday at a Denver conference of teacher unions and school administrators that the move in Wisconsin and other states to strip teachers of bargaining rights worries him.

In an interview with WTMJ-TV (Channel 4), President Barack Obama said public workers have to be prepared to make concessions but that he thought Walker's plan was unduly harsh on unions.

Walker offered the bill to help shore up the state's finances in advance of a budget to be delivered Tuesday that is expected to include major cuts in areas like aid to local schools and governments.

He first wants the budget repair bill passed to help clear up a $137 million budget shortfall for the fiscal year ending June 30 and ease solving a deficit of more than $3 billion over the next two years. The cuts to benefits would save taxpayers nearly $330 million through mid-2013.

Major elements of the budget-repair bill remain in place. It would require most public workers to pay half their pension costs - typically 5.8% of pay for state workers - and at least 12% of their health care costs. It applies to most state and local employees but does not apply to police, firefighters and state troopers, who would continue to bargain for their benefits.

Except for police, firefighters and troopers, raises would be limited to inflation unless a bigger increase was approved in a referendum. The non-law enforcement unions would lose their rights to bargain over anything but wages, would have to hold annual elections to keep their organizations intact and would lose the ability to have union dues deducted from state paychecks.

The most significant change the Joint Finance Committee approved would require local governments that don't have civil-service systems to create an employee grievance system within months. Those local civil-service systems would have to address grievances for employee termination, employee discipline and workplace safety.

The bill also gives Walker's Department of Health Services the power to write rules that would change state laws dealing with medical care for children, parents and childless adults; prescription drug plans for seniors; nursing home care for the elderly; and long-term care for the elderly and disabled outside of nursing homes.


__________________________________________________ ___

RK

road kill
02-17-2011, 01:57 PM
What the heck are you talking about?

They are cowards for not showing up? Really? That's why the didn't show, because they're cowards? :rolleyes:

WTH are you talking about??
It's an illegal act according to the rule of law in the WI state constitution that they swore an oath to when they took office.
That is why the police are searching for them and will bring them in.

Are they your heros for cuttin' and runnin'??:confused:


RK

starjack
02-17-2011, 02:08 PM
What the heck are you talking about?

They are cowards for not showing up? Really? That's why the didn't show, because they're cowards? :rolleyes:
The reason they are running is because they are cowards. You need 20 votes with out those cowards there is only 19. They are running because they do not want the unions poed at them Very cowardly. There running because they no walker is on the right track. and every thing our past gov. done is going by the way side. This is a very small sacrifice to pay when the private sector been dealing with a lot worse for the last decade.

Uncle Bill
02-17-2011, 02:26 PM
The news from that region indicates it was pretty orchestrated eh? All the Democrats loaded up on a bus and left town???

And the Dingy Harry followers are so sure it's the Republicans that are going to shut down the government. Don't think Obama's warriors aren't involved in all this crap.

Hang in there RK. Your Gov has plenty of the TEA Partiers in full support of his party's activities. What your state has begun is just that...the beginning of all these folks on the public dole suddenly realizing the democrats that dole it out, have run out of other peoples money.

Please don't look at this as I'm gloating. It's just reality setting in, and has been predicted by way more intelligent folks than me.

Before you liberals chastise all the Republicans for being the cause of these type of cuts, how arrogant must you be while on the public payroll, to think those pensions and bennys will continue forever? Now that the coffers are empty, how many want to continue to squeeze blood from that dry turnip?

The realization has to start smacking the Democrats along side the head pretty soon. Even their toady support of such luminaries as Cuomo in NY, and the left's beloved "Moonbeam" in California have seen the writing on the wall, and what Christy has done in NJ and Walker is doing in Wisconson will pale compared to what those two states will need to do.

The POTUS and his followers can claim "union-busting" all they want, but it's just simple reality. When the chips are down...the buffalo is empty.

UB

road kill
02-17-2011, 02:49 PM
The news from that region indicates it was pretty orchestrated eh? All the Democrats loaded up on a bus and left town???

And the Dingy Harry followers are so sure it's the Republicans that are going to shut down the government. Don't think Obama's warriors aren't involved in all this crap.

Hang in there RK. Your Gov has plenty of the TEA Partiers in full support of his party's activities. What your state has begun is just that...the beginning of all these folks on the public dole suddenly realizing the democrats that dole it out, have run out of other peoples money.

Please don't look at this as I'm gloating. It's just reality setting in, and has been predicted by way more intelligent folks than me.

Before you liberals chastise all the Republicans for being the cause of these type of cuts, how arrogant must you be while on the public payroll, to think those pensions and bennys will continue forever? Now that the coffers are empty, how many want to continue to squeeze blood from that dry turnip?

The realization has to start smacking the Democrats along side the head pretty soon. Even their toady support of such luminaries as Cuomo in NY, and the left's beloved "Moonbeam" in California have seen the writing on the wall, and what Christy has done in NJ and Walker is doing in Wisconson will pale compared to what those two states will need to do.

The POTUS and his followers can claim "union-busting" all they want, but it's just simple reality. When the chips are down...the buffalo is empty.

UB

One of the hardest things to deal with here is that several schools were shut down.....thus depriving these starving children of their FREE breakfasts and lunches.


Oh.....the humanity!!!!!


It has been reported that in 1 district some kids were picketing in front of their schools with signs reading;

"WHAT ABOUT US??"




RK:rolleyes:

luvmylabs23139
02-17-2011, 07:39 PM
I heard they have been located by the media in IL. When are you guys in WI gonna start extradition procedures?

Terri
02-17-2011, 10:30 PM
I would over haul the whole education system in every state. Public schools would be funded for all legal residence until the fifth grade. At that time a free public education would be provided to the top ten percent of students. The next forty percent would be provided a public education, but their parent would pay for it. The higher the rank the lower the cost. All other students would have to go to private schools. Each year the students would take another test and be grouped based on their ranking. This system should be able to sustain the pay of the teachers and since the bottom half of students will one day end up on public aid I see no need to waste education dollars. The students will work harder to move up in ranking because their parents will be pushing them to work to their fullest ability. All education dollars will go only to core education.

This idea is borrowed from my daughters law school funding department. To get into the school the students take the LSAT and along with grades are ranked. The student at the top gets the most aid and as the ranking goes down so does the aid, there is just so much aid money that the students in the lower rankings pay full price. Each year of school the students are ranked again. The aid is adjusted based on ranking. This is a private school and all the gifted money comes from private sources.

Athletes and special needs students have more educational benefits than the best and the brightest. I have no problem with talented kids playing sports, but the money should not come out of the education budget. If you want your kid to play then pay for it yourself or get a sponsor. Also I have no problem in helping special needs students, but I do not think I should pay for their food, transportation, and their study materials. Is this not every parents duty to meet these needs?

Everyone is to blame. Parents, students, teacher, and law makers.
Terri

Andy Symons
02-17-2011, 10:39 PM
I heard they have been located by the media in IL. When are you guys in WI gonna start extradition procedures?


Yes, please take them back. Not sure we have any more room for liberal cowards in this state!

allydeer
02-18-2011, 05:01 AM
i believe they should pay for a portion of there benefits like anyone Else but this is just a start to bust unions i work for a union and they have there good and bad like anything else i work for fox valley sheet metal local 18 .my wife been a waitress for quite a few years make a whopping 2.33 ph and she get tax 20 percent on her total sales not tips her sales so why don't they pass a law that makes it mandatory for people to tip a certain percentage of there bill. everyone should pay there far share.

Illinois Bob
02-18-2011, 08:10 AM
... everyone should pay there far share.


I think the problem is that we are already paying more than our fair share and watching much of it go to waste at the same time.

Matt Weberpal
02-18-2011, 09:25 AM
Scott Walker was elected in a LANDSLIDE!!!!

Everyone knew/knows what he is about!

He is asking state employees to pay 12.6% of their healthcare coverage (currently they contribute 5%) and contribute half of their retirement (currently they contribute 0)
That is a dollar for dollar match to retirement.

Walker also told the Unions and state employers that the state will no longer foot the bill for deducting union dues and send them to the unions.
They will now collect their own dues on their own dime.

Does this really seem that unreasonable??

No pay cuts, no benefit cuts, no layoffs.

This is what the majority of the voters in WI voted for.
It's just a start.

It's funny, the progressives that want those that have (the rich) to pay more squeal like stuck pigs when their freebies get touched.




RK

You forgot one important piece of the bill, removing the right for collective bargaining.

This is the fundamental reason for the protests, it's not the 12% health care or 5% pension.

Removing collective bargaining would mean that teachers could potentially have class sizes of 40(maybe more) and they would be teaching 7 periods in a row without prep time in between. If you know anything about education then you can see this would put a huge strain on the education of students. The more individualized instruction the better and large class sizes would just make education worse.

Matt Weberpal
02-18-2011, 09:27 AM
Yes, please take them back. Not sure we have any more room for liberal cowards in this state!

They're giving time for the people's voices to be heard, are we still in America?

huntinman
02-18-2011, 09:28 AM
They're giving time for the people's voices to be heard, are we still in America?

The people's voices were heard on election day.

Matt Weberpal
02-18-2011, 09:31 AM
I would over haul the whole education system in every state. Public schools would be funded for all legal residence until the fifth grade. At that time a free public education would be provided to the top ten percent of students. The next forty percent would be provided a public education, but their parent would pay for it. The higher the rank the lower the cost. All other students would have to go to private schools. Each year the students would take another test and be grouped based on their ranking. This system should be able to sustain the pay of the teachers and since the bottom half of students will one day end up on public aid I see no need to waste education dollars. The students will work harder to move up in ranking because their parents will be pushing them to work to their fullest ability. All education dollars will go only to core education.

This idea is borrowed from my daughters law school funding department. To get into the school the students take the LSAT and along with grades are ranked. The student at the top gets the most aid and as the ranking goes down so does the aid, there is just so much aid money that the students in the lower rankings pay full price. Each year of school the students are ranked again. The aid is adjusted based on ranking. This is a private school and all the gifted money comes from private sources.

Athletes and special needs students have more educational benefits than the best and the brightest. I have no problem with talented kids playing sports, but the money should not come out of the education budget. If you want your kid to play then pay for it yourself or get a sponsor. Also I have no problem in helping special needs students, but I do not think I should pay for their food, transportation, and their study materials. Is this not every parents duty to meet these needs?

Everyone is to blame. Parents, students, teacher, and law makers.
Terri

You'd be saying that differently if your child had a disability. There is a great deal of added expense when dealing with a child with a disability.

Matt Weberpal
02-18-2011, 09:32 AM
The people's voices were heard on election day.

If this bill was on the table on election day we'd have a different story.

Matt Weberpal
02-18-2011, 09:32 AM
Can someone tell me how removing collective bargaining is going to save money?

I understand the 12 and 5% increases.

huntinman
02-18-2011, 09:34 AM
Can someone tell me how removing collective bargaining is going to save money?

I understand the 12 and 5% increases.

You must be a WI teacher or married to one?

Matt Weberpal
02-18-2011, 09:36 AM
why, because I make sense?

I just know what it would do to education as a whole.

dnf777
02-18-2011, 09:37 AM
You'd be saying that differently if you're child had a disability. Grow up.

I am happy and proud that a small portion of my tax money goes to helping these children. I wish more of it went to causes like this, and less to blowing kids up around the world....unless it is absolutely necessary.

The only thing that helps ease the pain and anger of writing out those GD checks to the IRS, is to think of the elderly, or the very young, or infirmed who will derive some small comfort or sustenance from my money. I try not to think of the other crap they waste money on.

huntinman
02-18-2011, 09:39 AM
I am happy and proud that a small portion of my tax money goes to helping these children. I wish more of it went to causes like this, and less to blowing kids up around the world....unless it is absolutely necessary.

The only thing that helps ease the pain and anger of writing out those GD checks to the IRS, is to think of the elderly, or the very young, or infirmed who will derive some small comfort or sustenance from my money. I try not to think of the other crap they waste money on.

If it makes you feel so good, you can give more. They will gladly take it...

huntinman
02-18-2011, 09:46 AM
Dem Senators came back... there will be a vote in WI today. Hope they had enough time to hash it out...

Blackstone
02-18-2011, 09:52 AM
The more I hear about what was going on in WI, the less I approved of it. I can understand asking public workers to take pay more for benefits and retirement. However, this bill would also permanently remove the unions’ ability to collectively bargain on wages and benefits. There is no cost savings to that, so why is it part of the bill? This is simply a move to break the union, regardless of Walker’s claims to the contrary. Also, Walker attempted to force the bill through in 4 days so that few people would have a chance to look at it, understand the ramifications of it, or voice any objection to it. After the uproar on this forum over what was perceived as Obama’s attempt to ram a healthcare reform bill down our throats, you would think the same people wouldn’t be eager to see the same type of thing happen again in WI.

Matt Weberpal
02-18-2011, 09:57 AM
Dem Senators came back... there will be a vote in WI today. Hope they had enough time to hash it out...

where did you read this?

huntinman
02-18-2011, 10:02 AM
where did you read this?

It was just on the news. And they sent the WI state trooper to the home of the DEM Sen minority Ldr to bring him in to do his job.

Matt Weberpal
02-18-2011, 10:13 AM
Are you sure?

http://www.jsonline.com/newswatch/116470423.html

huntinman
02-18-2011, 10:19 AM
Typical media, jumping the gun. The dems better not poke their heads out, like the groundhog or someone will grab them and drag them down to the statehouse!

The saga continues...

luvmylabs23139
02-18-2011, 10:25 AM
They're giving time for the people's voices to be heard, are we still in America?

The people VOTED in Nov. These fools need to get their butts back to WI and do their job. They are earning a salary to be in the state of WI and vote nnot run away from their job and hide in IL.

Uncle Bill
02-18-2011, 10:35 AM
Weberpal...is this what you are supporting?



http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/cimages/ad2d687f12cabf13e83e42adda52ddfe/wisign.JPG

I support the Right To Work organization. Sodak has a RTW law, so both unions and non-union workers are accomodated. What's wrong with that concept?

Right now, the unions are the tail wagging the dog. And much like the voters that put Obama in the White House, and are crying about it now, voters in Wisconsin put a conservative in the Governors position, knowing full well what he intended to do...CUT COSTS! But now, since YOUR ox is being gored, the Democrats are whining. What did you think would happen??? Elections have consequences.

Furthermoe, if you folks would be intellectually honest, what your Governor is proposing has nothing to do with the unions right to negotiate wages. So please be truthful when you post, and not just another union toady.

This following from the RTW newsletter.

UB



If you want an example of the sense of entitlement and desperation of union brass who will do anything to protect their power over taxpayers and government, look no further than Madison, Wisconsin.

You see, Big Labor-backed incumbents paid a price at the polls in November, and now Right to Work forces are on the march across the country demanding newly-elected state legislators and governors stick to their promises.

In Wisconsin, Governor Scott Walker has proposed a bill to give most government employees the Right to Work without having to pay tribute to a labor union.

The government unions are going ballistic because the law would take state government out of the hands of Big Labor, and put it back where it belongs – with the people's elected government.

Disturbingly, teacher union militants in Madison staged a "sick-out" on Wednesday and Thursday to protest the proposed law.

The shocking tactic shut down the schools, denying students two days of learning, forcing parents to adjust their schedules, and costing the taxpayers.

The teacher union bosses' extremism echoes the infamous philosophy of former American Federation of Teachers (AFT) union mogul Al Shanker: "When school children start paying union dues, that's when I'll start representing the interests of school children."

Now forced unionism extremists are flooding the capitol with hate-filled signs like the one at the top of this message. They are blatantly lying about what the proposed bill does, and they've pressured Big Labor-backed Democrats to flee out of the state to shut down the state senate.

It's easy to see that the union czars won't give up their power without a fight. That's why we have to remain vigilant.

And we're making great strides nationwide. Just this week, the New Hampshire state house passed a Right to Work bill to make union dues payment strictly voluntary in the Granite State. The next step is a vote in the state senate.

In the coming days and weeks, the battles against Big Labor in New Hampshire, Wisconsin, and other forced unionism states will become even more crucial.

You can see in Wisconsin the length the union militants will go to protect their government-granted monopoly privileges and power.

Matt Weberpal
02-18-2011, 10:37 AM
The people VOTED in Nov. These fools need to get their butts back to WI and do their job. They are earning a salary to be in the state of WI and vote nnot run away from their job and hide in IL.

They have attempted to push the bill through in 4 days without negotiations from the people. The Dems are doing their job by not being there and having the bill passed without discussions. It's not a stunt, it's Democracy.

sandyg
02-18-2011, 10:42 AM
They have attempted to push the bill through in 4 days without negotiations from the people. The Dems are doing their job by not being there and having the bill passed without discussions. It's not a stunt, it's Democracy.

Ha, ha, ha! I don't care who you are, that's funny right there!

Matt Weberpal
02-18-2011, 10:45 AM
Bill,
You hit it right on the head...............:confused:

That represents 1% of the protestors.

Again, it's not about negotiating wages, that right will remain with this bill. It's about bargaining for other rights which I have outlined in previous posts.

Randy Moore
02-18-2011, 11:24 AM
To be fiscally Responsible is hard. About time some one started. Thank you Gov. Scott Walker.

road kill
02-18-2011, 11:42 AM
They have attempted to push the bill through in 4 days without negotiations from the people. The Dems are doing their job by not being there and having the bill passed without discussions. It's not a stunt, it's Democracy.

We had negotiations.
It was called the ELECTION!!!

Your free ride (on our back) is OVER!!!!

RK

road kill
02-18-2011, 11:44 AM
They're giving time for the people's voices to be heard, are we still in America?

The peoples voices were heard.

It's called the ELECTION!!!


RK

Marvin S
02-18-2011, 11:51 AM
They have attempted to push the bill through in 4 days without negotiations from those with their nose in the trough.

Fixed it for you! I'll give you a little history.

In the mid 70's I served on a school board, at the time was both Chair of the Board & Negotiations chair, so I've heard your stuff that is mostly myth. Anyway, Seattle teachers struck that year & our teachers were feeling their oats. They show at the SB meeting with their buttons (BTW, made by one of our school principals) saying SEATTLE Did. The grapevine had warned me this was going to happen, so when I took my jacket off there was a homemade Hortonville Did on my shirt. The buzz went through all 127 of them, & there was no strike.

In case you haven't been made aware of Hortonville, it is in WI, & they fired all their teachers when they went on strike & it stuck. Your lines are pathetic, my best elementary teachers were people who didn't have a full year of college. They also handled however many showed up to be taught & they either absorbed some of that or were flunked. Which is what most of the efforts of teachers today deserve, Flunking. I've had this discussion with a local columnist, the point I made with him is the best are already being properly compensated while the rest are grossly overpaid &/or should be replaced.

road kill
02-18-2011, 12:59 PM
For Immediate Release
Friday, February 11, 2011

Governor Walker Introduces Budget Repair



Emergency measure is needed to balance the state budget and give government the tools to manage during economic crisis



Madison– Governor Walker today released details of his budget repair bill.



“We must take immediate action to ensure fiscal stability in our state,” said Governor Walker. “This budget repair bill will meet the immediate needs of our state and give government the tools to deal with this and future budget crises.”



The state of Wisconsin is facing an immediate deficit of $137 million for the current fiscal year which ends July 1. In addition, bill collectors are waiting to collect over $225 million for a prior raid of the Patients’ Compensation Fund.



The budget repair bill will balance the budget and lay the foundation for a long-term sustainable budget through several measures without raising taxes, raiding segregated funds, or using accounting gimmicks.



First, it will require state employees to pay about 5.8% toward their pension (about the private sector national average) and about 12% of their healthcare benefits (about half the private sector national average). These changes will help the state save $30 million in the last three months of the current fiscal year.



“It’s fair to ask public employees to make a pension payment of just over 5%, which is about the national average, and a premium payment of 12%, which is about half of the national average,” said Governor Walker.



The budget repair will also restructure the state debt, lowering the state’s interest rate, saving the state $165 million.



These changes will help the state fulfill its Medicaid spending on needy families of about $170 million; funding that the previous administration did not have in its budget. It will also allow the state to spend an additional $21 million in the Department of Corrections.



Additionally, the budget repair bill gives state and local governments the tools to manage spending reductions through changing some provisions of the state’s collective bargaining laws.



The state’s civil service system, among the strongest in the country, would remain in place. State and local employees could continue to bargain for base pay, they would not be able to bargain over other compensation measures. Local police, fire and state patrol would be exempted from the changes. Other reforms will include state and local governments not collecting union dues, annual certification will be required in a secret ballot, and any employee can opt out of paying union dues.



A full summary of the Governor’s budget repair bill is below.



Fiscal Year 2010-11 Budget Adjustment Bill Items



Employee Compensation:



Pension contributions: Currently, state, school district and municipal employees that are members of the Wisconsin Retirement System (WRS) generally pay little or nothing toward their pensions. The bill would require that employees of WRS employers, and the City and County of Milwaukee contribute 50 percent of the annual pension payment. The payment amount for WRS employees is estimated to be 5.8 percent of salary in 2011.



Health insurance contributions: Currently, state employees on average pay approximately 6 percent of annual health insurance premiums. This bill will require that state employees pay at least 12.6 percent of the average cost of annual premiums. In addition, the bill would require changes to the plan design necessary to reduce current premiums by 5 percent. Local employers participating in the Public Employers Group Health insurance would be prohibited from paying more than 88 percent of the lowest cost plan. The bill would also authorize the Department of Employee Trust Funds to use $28 million of excess balances in reserve accounts for health insurance and pharmacy benefits to reduce health insurance premium costs.



Health insurance cost containment strategies: The bill directs the Department of Employee Trust Funds and the Group Insurance Board to implement health risk assessments and similar programs aimed at participant wellness, collect certain data related to assessing health care provider quality and effectiveness, and verify the status of dependents participating in the state health insurance program. In addition, it modifies the membership of the Group Insurance Board to require that the representative of the Attorney General be an attorney to ensure the board has access to legal advice among its membership.



Pension changes for elected officials and appointees: The bill modifies the pension calculation for elected officials and appointees to be the same as general occupation employees and teachers. Current law requires these positions to pay more and receive a different multiplier for pension calculation than general classification employees. Under the state constitution, this change will be effective for elected officials at the beginning of their next term of office.



Modifications to Wisconsin Retirement System and state health insurance plans: The bill directs the Department of Administration, Office of State Employment Relations and Department of Employee Trust Funds to study and report on possible changes to the Wisconsin Retirement System, including defined contribution plans and longer vesting periods. The three agencies must also study and report on changes to the current state health insurance plans, including health insurance purchasing exchanges, larger purchasing pools, and high-deductible insurance options.



General fund impact – Authorize the Department of Administration Secretary to lapse or transfer from GPR and PR appropriations (excluding PR appropriations to the University of Wisconsin) to the general fund estimated savings of approximately $30 million from implementing these provisions for state employees in the current fiscal year (2010-11). Segregated funds would retain any savings from these measures.



State and Local Government and School District Labor Relations:



Collective bargaining – The bill would make various changes to limit collective bargaining for most public employees to wages. Total wage increases could not exceed a cap based on the consumer price index (CPI) unless approved by referendum. Contracts would be limited to one year and wages would be frozen until the new contract is settled. Collective bargaining units are required to take annual votes to maintain certification as a union. Employers would be prohibited from collecting union dues and members of collective bargaining units would not be required to pay dues. These changes take effect upon the expiration of existing contracts. Local law enforcement and fire employees, and state troopers and inspectors would be exempt from these changes.



Career executive transfers – The bill would allow state employees in the career executive positions to be reassigned between agencies upon agreement of agency heads.



Limited term employees (LTE) – The bill would prohibit LTE's from being eligible for health insurance or participation in the Wisconsin Retirement System.



State employee absences and other work actions – If the Governor has declared a state of emergency, the bill authorizes appointing authorities to terminate any employees that are absent for three days without approval of the employer or any employees that participate in an organized action to stop or slow work.



Quality Health Care Authority – The bill repeals the authority of home health care workers under the Medicaid program to collectively bargain.



Child care labor relations – The bill repeals the authority of family child care workers to collectively bargain with the State.



University of Wisconsin Hospitals and Clinics (UWHC) Board and Authority – The bill repeals collective bargaining for UWHC employees. State positions currently employed by the UWHC Board are eliminated and the incumbents are transferred to the UWHC Authority.



University of Wisconsin faculty and academic staff - The bill repeals the authority of UW faculty and academic staff to collectively bargain.








###
________________________________________________

Read it and see the facts.

RK

road kill
02-18-2011, 01:00 PM
The rest....
___________________________________________
Debt Restructuring – The bill authorizes the restructuring of principal payments in fiscal year 2010-11 on the state's general obligation bonds. These principal repayments will be paid in future years. Since the state is required to make debt service payments by March 15th, the bill must be enacted by February 25th to allow time to sell the refinancing bonds. This provision will reduce debt service costs by $165 million in fiscal year 2010-11. This savings will help address one‑time costs to comply with the Injured Patients and Families Compensation Fund state Supreme Court decision and make payments under the Minnesota‑Wisconsin tax reciprocity program.



Medicaid



Address FY11 Medicaid deficit – Medicaid costs are expected to exceed current GPR appropriations by $153 million. The bill would increase the Medicaid GPR appropriation to address this shortfall.



Authorize DHS to restructure program notwithstanding current law – Medicaid costs have increased dramatically due to the recession and expanded program eligibility. In order to reduce the growth in costs, the bill authorizes the Department of Health Services to make program changes notwithstanding limits in state law related to specific program provisions. The department is expected to develop new approaches on program benefits, eligibility determination and provider cost-effectiveness. The proposed changes will require passive approval of the Joint Committee on Finance before implementation.



Technical correction – Act 28 included language that required unused GPR expenditure authority in the Medicaid GPR appropriation at the end of the biennium to be carried over to the subsequent biennium. The bill repeals this provision in order to ensure unspent funds in Medicaid lapse to the general fund balance.



Aging and Disability Resource Centers (ADRC) – The bill transfers an estimated $3 million in savings in this appropriation to Medicaid. ADRC's are the intake and assessment element of the state's Family Care program.



Corrections – The bill provides $22 million GPR to address shortfalls in the Department of Corrections adult institutions appropriation. These shortfalls are due to health care costs, overtime, and reductions in salary and fringe benefit budgets under Act 28.



Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF) Funding for Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) – The bill allocates $37 million of excess TANF revenues to increase TANF funding for the EITC from $6.6 million to $43.6 million in fiscal year 2010-11. By increasing TANF funding, GPR funding for the EITC is reduced by a commensurate amount.



Income Augmentation Revenues – Allow the Department of Children and Families and Department of Health Services to utilize $6.5 million of already identified income augmentation revenues to meet fiscal year 2010-11 lapse requirements.



Act 28 Required Lapses by DOA Secretary – Under Act 28, the Department of Administration Secretary is required to lapse or transfer a total of $680 million in 2009-11 from appropriations made to executive branch agencies to the general fund. The bill would reduce this amount by $79 million to ensure the lapses can be met in the next five months as this was ineffectively addressed by the previous administration.



Lapse of Funding from Joint Committee on Finance (JCF) Appropriation – The JCF appropriation includes $4.5 million related to estimated fiscal year 2010-11 implementation costs of 2009 Wisconsin Act 100 (operating while intoxicated enforcement changes). This funding is not anticipated to be needed in fiscal year 2010-11 and the bill lapses these amounts to the general fund balance.



Sale of State Heating Plants – The bill authorizes the Department of Administration to sell state heating plants. The proceeds from any sale, net of remaining debt service, would be deposited in the budget stabilization fund.



Shift Key Cabinet Agency Positions to Unclassified Status – The bill creates unclassified positions for chief legal counsel, public information officer and legislative liaison activities in cabinet agencies. An equivalent number of classified positions are deleted to offset the new unclassified positions. These activities are critical to each cabinet agency's overall mission and should have direct accountability to the agency head.
__________________________________________________ _________________


RK

TxHillHunter
02-18-2011, 01:05 PM
They have attempted to push the bill through in 4 days without negotiations from the people. The Dems are doing their job by not being there and having the bill passed without discussions. It's not a stunt, it's Democracy.

Have to explain to us how the Dems intend to have discussions when they are not there to talk or listen.

road kill
02-18-2011, 01:44 PM
Jesse Jackson rallies protesters at Wis. Capitol

Associated Press - February 18, 2011 1:55 PM ET

MADISON, Wis. (AP) - The Rev. Jesse Jackson has urged thousands of protesters in the Wisconsin Capitol to continue their stand against a sweeping anti-union bill that state Republicans are pushing.

Jackson made an unannounced appearance at the protests Friday afternoon. Protesters rushed to shake his hand or high-five him, and many shouted, "Thank you, Jesse."

Jackson told the protesters they were fighting for a just cause. He told them to hold strong to their principles and continue fighting to kill the bill. Then he led the masses in a rendition of "We Shall Overcome."

Gov. Scott Walker's bill would cut costs in part by eliminating collective-bargaining rights.

Jackson likened the protest to anti-government fights in Egypt and Tunisia. He says Wisconsin workers should be allowed at the table to help find a solution.

Copyright 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
__________________________________________________ _____

Now it's getting good!!!!


RK

Cody Covey
02-18-2011, 01:46 PM
The more I hear about what was going on in WI, the less I approved of it. I can understand asking public workers to take pay more for benefits and retirement. However, this bill would also permanently remove the unions’ ability to collectively bargain on wages and benefits. There is no cost savings to that, so why is it part of the bill? This is simply a move to break the union, regardless of Walker’s claims to the contrary. Also, Walker attempted to force the bill through in 4 days so that few people would have a chance to look at it, understand the ramifications of it, or voice any objection to it. After the uproar on this forum over what was perceived as Obama’s attempt to ram a healthcare reform bill down our throats, you would think the same people wouldn’t be eager to see the same type of thing happen again in WI.

Thats not true. They are not losing the ability to bargain wages. We know that public employee benefits and pension are a huge strain on state and local governments and that is why it is a cost savings...

ducknwork
02-18-2011, 01:48 PM
Now it's getting good!!!!


RK

Sounds like the makings of a South Park parody now!!

road kill
02-18-2011, 01:50 PM
The more I hear about what was going on in WI, the less I approved of it. I can understand asking public workers to take pay more for benefits and retirement. However, this bill would also permanently remove the unions’ ability to collectively bargain on wages and benefits. There is no cost savings to that, so why is it part of the bill? This is simply a move to break the union, regardless of Walker’s claims to the contrary. Also, Walker attempted to force the bill through in 4 days so that few people would have a chance to look at it, understand the ramifications of it, or voice any objection to it. After the uproar on this forum over what was perceived as Obama’s attempt to ram a healthcare reform bill down our throats, you would think the same people wouldn’t be eager to see the same type of thing happen again in WI.


I posted the bill, no longer need to guess and follow DNC talking points.:D


RK

Eric Johnson
02-18-2011, 02:11 PM
They have attempted to push the bill through in 4 days without negotiations from the people. The Dems are doing their job by not being there and having the bill passed without discussions. It's not a stunt, it's Democracy.

First of all, the legislative process in Wisconsin doesn't ever involve "negotiations from the people."

Secondly, the legislators are elected to do a job....pass or defeat legislation. The Democrats are doing neither and therefore aren't doing their jobs. They deserve a good >thwacking<.

Eric

sandyg
02-18-2011, 02:12 PM
Great, now Jesse Jerkoff found the TV camera. The other poverty pimp, Al Sharpton, won't be far behind!

Blackstone
02-18-2011, 02:23 PM
Thats not true. They are not losing the ability to bargain wages. We know that public employee benefits and pension are a huge strain on state and local governments and that is why it is a cost savings...

I stand corrected. They can bargain on wages, but the amount of any increase is capped, so their ability to negotiate is limited. I don’t feel they should be prohibited by law from bargaining on benefits. If they have a valid case for not increasing benefits, then present it during negotiations, and let the union present their case. If they can't resolve an impasse, then go to arbitration and let a disinterested 3rd party decide what's fair.

luvmylabs23139
02-18-2011, 02:26 PM
I stand corrected. They can bargain on wages, but the amount of any increase is capped, so their ability to negotiate is limited. I don’t feel they should be prohibited by law from bargaining on benefits. If they have a valid case for not increasing benefits, then present it during negotiations, and let the union present their case. If they can't resolve an impasse, then go to arbitration and let a disinterested 3rd party decide what's fair.

The vote happened in November. What part of that do liberals not understand?
THe taxpayers, who are their employers said enough is enough. Right now every teacher that did not show up for work should be fired.

Blackstone
02-18-2011, 02:44 PM
The vote happened in November. What part of that do liberals not understand?
THe taxpayers, who are their employers said enough is enough. Right now every teacher that did not show up for work should be fired.

Regardless, the people still have the right to protest actions by the government they feel are unjust, and that’s what they’re doing. I’m just expressing my opinion of what I think would be fair.

Personally, I have no dog in this fight. What happens in WI doesn’t impact me at all. The people of WI got what they voted for. I would hazard a guess to say some of the people protesting even voted for Walker because they didn’t think his budget cutting would impact them.

TxHillHunter
02-18-2011, 03:14 PM
Personally, I have no dog in this fight. What happens in WI doesn’t impact me at all. The people of WI got what they voted for. I would hazard a guess to say some of the people protesting even voted for Walker because they didn’t think his budget cutting would impact them.

Could be right about those who voted for him, welcome to the Representative Democracy.

But what is happening in states outside our own can most definitely impact all of us. Federal dollars feed ALL state budgets on many levels....it's all interconnected.

cotts135
02-18-2011, 03:29 PM
I don't think anyone here thinks that Public sector employees shouldn't contribute more to their pensions and health care. What is bothersome to me is that like usual the burden of state budgets seem to be being shouldered by the middle class. You can demonize the Unions all you like but the process they go through is very similiar to what the rich and big business do. Where is all the uproar about all the niceties business has been given in the form of subsidies and favorable tax policies .................... or god forbid we raise some taxes on the rich.
Big banks created a lot of this problem with the bubble they created when they packaged worthless investments. State pension funds bought these useless investments and got hurt when the bubble burst. The middle class should not have to fund the shortcomings of state budgets alone.

road kill
02-18-2011, 03:41 PM
I don't think anyone here thinks that Public sector employees shouldn't contribute more to their pensions and health care. What is bothersome to me is that like usual the burden of state budgets seem to be being shouldered by the middle class. You can demonize the Unions all you like but the process they go through is very similiar to what the rich and big business do. Where is all the uproar about all the niceties business has been given in the form of subsidies and favorable tax policies .................... or god forbid we raise some taxes on the rich.
Big banks created a lot of this problem with the bubble they created when they packaged worthless investments. State pension funds bought these useless investments and got hurt when the bubble burst. The middle class should not have to fund the shortcomings of state budgets alone.

:rolleyes:

RK

Matt Weberpal
02-18-2011, 03:42 PM
I know what the bill says and I know what will happen if it passes.

Say goodbye to quality education at all levels in the state of Wisconsin.

huntinman
02-18-2011, 03:51 PM
I know what the bill says and I know what will happen if it passes.

Say goodbye to quality education at all levels in the state of Wisconsin.

I think they already rank 44th even though they are paid much better. So much for the money making that much of a difference...

cotts135
02-18-2011, 03:56 PM
:rolleyes:

RK

So you obviously agree that the middle class should take the full hit economically in this mess.

starjack
02-18-2011, 03:59 PM
I know what the bill says and I know what will happen if it passes.

Say goodbye to quality education at all levels in the state of Wisconsin.

All the teachers that out of the schools right now protesting are really looking out for the best interest of our kids arent they.:rolleyes:

huntinman
02-18-2011, 04:00 PM
All the teachers that out of the schools right now protesting are really looking out for the best interest of our kids arent they.:rolleyes:

How are those kids getting their free meals at school? Aren't they hungry?

Buzz
02-18-2011, 04:14 PM
So you obviously agree that the middle class should take the full hit economically in this mess.

You have to love what the new tea bagger gov did in Michigan. He proposed a new budget. Business tax cuts of 1.8 billion. Tax increases on senior's pensions. These budges will be balanced on the backs of the poor and the middle class.

On teachers. I don't think this country has a teacher and school system problem as much as it has a parents problem. There are so many things competing for kid's time these days. Hundreds of channels on the stupid box, Wii and playstations, computers & the internet, computer games. Cell phones and texting. Parents who both work and come home tired with chores to do around the house. I live in an area where the schools are very average. Yet my 11 year old 6th grade daughter has had her reading level test out at college freshman. She's doing high school algebra. But I have a dedicated wife who doesn't have to work, and we deny any of these extra activities until homework is done each day. And with the internets it's easy to know what homework is due and when tests/quizzes are coming up. It's all there on the school website, as well as grades. We don't have to wait for report cards to find out what's going on. Sadly my daughter's teacher says that very few parents utilize these tools. In fact a couple years ago a bunch of parents showed up to a school board meeting to complain about too much homework. Interesting I'd say, because when my daughter is struggling with something, I go to her teachers for more resources that we can access to get her through it. At first they seemed stunned, but they are very very helpful, if you ask that is...

huntinman
02-18-2011, 04:21 PM
You have to love what the new tea bagger gov did in Michigan. He proposed a new budget. Business tax cuts of 1.8 billion. Tax increases on senior's pensions.

Nice... you guys just can't help yourselves... Better get used to 'em they are not going away.

Buzz
02-18-2011, 04:26 PM
Nice... you guys just can't help yourselves... Better get used to 'em they are not going away.

We'll see...

I can tell you that my mom who lives on a very meager pension in Michigan will likely be moving here. The won't be getting her pension dollars, and they won't be getting any more of my dollars coming into the state to help support her.

huntinman
02-18-2011, 04:30 PM
We'll see...

I can tell you that my mom who lives on a very meager pension in Michigan will likely be moving here. The won't be getting her pension dollars, and they won't be getting any more of my dollars coming into the state to help support her.

Shoulda been gone from there long ago. Libs screwed it up years ago.

sandyg
02-18-2011, 04:33 PM
We'll see...

I can tell you that my mom who lives on a very meager pension in Michigan will likely be moving here. The won't be getting her pension dollars, and they won't be getting any more of my dollars coming into the state to help support her.

I think we'll survive...

Matt Weberpal
02-18-2011, 04:50 PM
Again, the bottom line here is the fact that the bill will take away collective bargaining rights from the unions.

In the teachers' case, that means they will not be able to negotiate class sizes, case load and curriculum as well as staffing.

Do you really want someone who knows little about education making curriculum decisions? Walker wouldn't even qualify to substitute teach in the state of Wisconsin. It is far better to have current and past teachers making those decisions, they know what works, they've been there.

If you know anything about education then you know the more individualized the instruction the better. 40 students to a classroom is not the least restrictive environment. Teachers also need prep periods to PREP for their upcoming classes, deal with students, parents and faculty. It's much more involved than standing in front of a group of students.

Most people who argue against education have no idea what goes on in a school day, the only experience they have is from their own education. It's completely different being a student vs. an instructor or administrator.

If you can argue these points go ahead, otherwise eat your popcorn.

Did I mention anything about wages?

Edit: I found this minutes after posting.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/116470423.html

road kill
02-18-2011, 04:52 PM
I know what the bill says and I know what will happen if it passes.

Say goodbye to quality education at all levels in the state of Wisconsin.

That happened quite some time ago.
Do some research.........


RK

huntinman
02-18-2011, 04:55 PM
Again, the bottom line here is the fact that the bill will take away collective bargaining rights from the unions.

In the teachers' case, that means they will not be able to negotiate class sizes, case load and curriculum as well as staffing.

Do you really want someone who knows little about education making curriculum decisions? Walker wouldn't even qualify to substitute teach in the state of Wisconsin. It is far better to have current and past teachers making those decisions, they know what works, they've been there.

If you know anything about education then you know the more individualized the instruction the better. 40 students to a classroom is not the least restrictive environment. Teachers also need prep periods to PREP for their upcoming classes, deal with students, parents and faculty. It's much more involved than standing in front of a group of students.

Most people who argue against education have no idea what goes on in a school day, the only experience they have is from their own education. It's completely different being a student vs. an instructor or administrator.

If you can argue these points go ahead, otherwise eat your popcorn.

Did I mention anything about wages?

The public employees have 2 choices. 1. Go back to work and let the Senators do their job. 2. Let the Gov. start firing them. He needs to cut the dollars somewhere. 6,000 of them could lose their jobs just from their own stubborness.

I say give them till Monday morning to get to work and strt sending out the pink slips.

cotts135
02-18-2011, 04:58 PM
No shared sacrifice huh. Just screw the middle class and give an unfunded tax cut to the rich in the state. That's a great plan:rolleyes:

Golddogs
02-18-2011, 05:04 PM
The attempted fix in Wisconsin hopefully will highlight a problem that is nation wide. That of unrealistic benefits and pensions for state and federal employees. In most cases, the wages paid are very good and few in the private sector would complain if they were receiveing them. The problems are in a benefit / pension system that is out of skew with reality. This applies to elected officials as well as the rank anf file. YEARS ago, it made some sense when it was used to offset the historically lower pay that state and federal employees earned. That has changed and the system can no longer continue as is.

The unions were needed badly back in the day when a worker had little or no rights and no way to improve the work place. That is, in most cases, no longer true and the unions lack of common sense and greed have been a HUGE contributor to our current problems.

The bottom line is we cannot afford to do both at current levels without bankrupting more states or paying out more and more in taxes. Neither of those choices sits well with me.

And for the record, the longer people make this a us vs them situation, the worse the problems will become. These conditions affect ALL of us and everyone is going to have to give up something sacred to clean up the mess.

Matt Weberpal
02-18-2011, 05:10 PM
The attempted fix in Wisconsin hopefully will highlight a problem that is nation wide. That of unrealistic benefits and pensions for state and federal employees. In most cases, the wages paid are very good and few in the private sector would complain if they were receiveing them. The problems are in a benefit / pension system that is out of skew with reality. This applies to elected officials as well as the rank anf file. YEARS ago, it made some sense when it was used to offset the historically lower pay that state and federal employees earned. That has changed and the system can no longer continue as is.

The unions were needed badly back in the day when a worker had little or no rights and no way to improve the work place. That is, in most cases, no longer true and the unions lack of common sense and greed have been a HUGE contributor to our current problems.

The bottom line is we cannot afford to do both at current levels without bankrupting more states or paying out more and more in taxes. Neither of those choices sits well with me.

And for the record, the longer people make this a us vs them situation, the worse the problems will become. These conditions affect ALL of us and everyone is going to have to give up something sacred to clean up the mess.

How many times does it need to be stated that the unions are okay with the pensions and insurance increases? That is not the root of the problem.

Cody Covey
02-18-2011, 05:11 PM
No shared sacrifice huh. Just screw the middle class and give an unfunded tax cut to the rich in the state. That's a great plan:rolleyes:
Please cite where Wisconsin gave a tax cut to just the rich? God forbid public employees start getting paid what they are worth and with most public education teachers that is very little...

Blackstone
02-18-2011, 05:17 PM
We'll see...

I can tell you that my mom who lives on a very meager pension in Michigan will likely be moving here. The won't be getting her pension dollars, and they won't be getting any more of my dollars coming into the state to help support her.

I can tell you that my mom who lives on a very meager pension in Michigan will likely be moving here. The won't be getting her pension dollars, and they won't be getting any more of my dollars coming into the state to help support her.[/QUOTE]

I’m trying to move my mother out too. I remember when another MI governor balanced the budget on the backs of those that couldn’t help themselves. He closed more than 30 mental health facilities, and left a couple of thousand mentally disabled individuals to fend for themselves. Many of them ended up homeless. I worked in an area where one of the facilities had been. There were several around there that had nowhere to go, so they just stayed in the area and lived on the streets. It was really sad to see. Who know how many ended up dying out there. But, at least the budget was balanced.

TxHillHunter
02-18-2011, 05:21 PM
I can tell you that my mom who lives on a very meager pension in Michigan will likely be moving here. The won't be getting her pension dollars, and they won't be getting any more of my dollars coming into the state to help support her.

I’m trying to move my mother out too. I remember when another MI governor balanced the budget on the backs of those that couldn’t help themselves. He closed more than 30 mental health facilities, and left a couple of thousand mentally disabled individuals to fend for themselves. Many of them ended up homeless. I worked in an area where one of the facilities had been. There were several around there that had nowhere to go, so they just stayed in the area and lived on the streets. It was really sad to see. Who know how many ended up dying out there. But, at least the budget was balanced.[/QUOTE]

Guess their family members had already moved south?

starjack
02-18-2011, 05:31 PM
Teacher Blog Wisconsin Teaching SalariesGet the Teaching Credentials You Need Home Teacher Education Substitute Teachers Lesson Plans Wisconsin Teaching Salaries and Benefits
People often believe that teachers don't make a lot of money. Those in the know, though, are aware that compensation in the education industry can be quite generous, especially when you factor in the great vacation schedule and the comprehensive benefits packages that usually go along with teaching. In Wisconsin, teaching salaries averaged $52,644 in 2009-10, according to the National Education Association, with most school districts offering benefits that range from health insurance to retirement plans. (1)

The average Wisconsin teacher salary does vary, however. One major source of salary variation is what grade level you teach. In May 2009, preschool teachers in Wisconsin earned an average salary of $23,460, elementary school teachers earned $51,240, and secondary school teachers earned $49,400. (2) Education and experience level also make a difference in teacher salaries: secondary school teachers in the 90th wage percentile earned $69,550, while the entry-level teacher salary is generally in the $30,000s. (3)

Geographic location is another significant reason for variation in Wisconsin teaching salaries. Areas that have a higher cost of living often pay correspondingly higher salaries. Below are average annual earnings for secondary school teachers in five of the largest metropolitan areas in the state: (4)

•Green Bay: $55,110
•Kenosha: $68,400
•Madison: $50,770
•Milwaukee: $54,620
•Racine: $49,710
However, the greatest benefit to becoming an educator has nothing to do with Wisconsin teaching salaries. At the end of the day, the intrinsic rewards of helping children learn and shaping their knowledge for the future are arguably far more satisfying.

dnf777
02-18-2011, 05:36 PM
No shared sacrifice huh. Just screw the middle class and give an unfunded tax cut to the rich in the state. That's a great plan:rolleyes:

The ultimate goal is to have a state of corporate lords, overseeing and providing a meager existence for laborers with no say whatsoever in their standard of living or quality of life.

Oh, and lets cut Pell grants and education so that none of them get the crazy notion that they're going to send their kids to school and have a better life. Afterall, an uneducated populace is easier to control.

road kill
02-18-2011, 06:05 PM
The ultimate goal is to have a state of corporate lords, overseeing and providing a meager existence for laborers with no say whatsoever in their standard of living or quality of life.

Oh, and lets cut Pell grants and education so that none of them get the crazy notion that they're going to send their kids to school and have a better life. Afterall, an uneducated populace is easier to control.

WTF does this have to do with the topic??

Have you read the proposal??:rolleyes:


RK

Blackstone
02-18-2011, 06:07 PM
Guess their family members had already moved south?

I would imagine most of them didn’t have families with the resources or capabilities to care for them. Many suffered from schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, autism, cerebral palsy, etc. If you have ever seen what it takes to care for people with severe, long-term psychiatric problems, you would understand why they ended up on the street. Not only can they be extremely difficult to deal with, the cost of meds, hospital time, and treatment makes it almost impossible for some people to handle.

Marvin S
02-18-2011, 06:07 PM
Teacher Blog Wisconsin Teaching SalariesGet the Teaching Credentials You Need Home Teacher Education Substitute Teachers Lesson Plans Wisconsin Teaching Salaries and Benefits
People often believe that teachers don't make a lot of money. Those in the know, though, are aware that compensation in the education industry can be quite generous, especially when you factor in the great vacation schedule and the comprehensive benefits packages that usually go along with teaching. In Wisconsin, teaching salaries averaged $52,644 in 2009-10, according to the National Education Association, with most school districts offering benefits that range from health insurance to retirement plans. (1)

The average Wisconsin teacher salary does vary, however. One major source of salary variation is what grade level you teach. In May 2009, preschool teachers in Wisconsin earned an average salary of $23,460, elementary school teachers earned $51,240, and secondary school teachers earned $49,400. (2) Education and experience level also make a difference in teacher salaries: secondary school teachers in the 90th wage percentile earned $69,550, while the entry-level teacher salary is generally in the $30,000s. (3)

Geographic location is another significant reason for variation in Wisconsin teaching salaries. Areas that have a higher cost of living often pay correspondingly higher salaries. Below are average annual earnings for secondary school teachers in five of the largest metropolitan areas in the state: (4)

•Green Bay: $55,110
•Kenosha: $68,400
•Madison: $50,770
•Milwaukee: $54,620
•Racine: $49,710
However, the greatest benefit to becoming an educator has nothing to do with Wisconsin teaching salaries. At the end of the day, the intrinsic rewards of helping children learn and shaping their knowledge for the future are arguably far more satisfying. ( This is the part that is really scary)

Added to your post a little - those average salaries are divisible by 1270 which is the contractual hours most employment contracts call for :confused: .

Marvin S
02-18-2011, 06:09 PM
I would imagine most of them didn’t have families with the resources or capabilities to care for them. Many suffered from schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, autism, cerebral palsy, etc. If you have ever seen what it takes to care for people with severe, long-term psychiatric problems, you would understand why they ended up on the street. Not only can they be extremely difficult to deal with, the cost of meds, hospital time, and treatment makes it almost impossible for some people to handle.

If I'm not mistaken I believe the ACLU can be thanked for this one!

Mary Lynn Metras
02-18-2011, 06:10 PM
Sorry I got on the wrong forum. Was surprised by some people's reaction to deficit cutting. TV blows things up. Must be nice to close schools etc while parents had to find alternative places for the kids that day. Very interesting but I applaud the Govenor for trying. Work with him folks. Good luck!!

Eric Johnson
02-18-2011, 06:15 PM
On what basis were the teachers away from their job to protest? Seems to me that the school boards have a "job abandment" basis for firing the participants.

Eric

Golddogs
02-18-2011, 06:15 PM
How many times does it need to be stated that the unions are okay with the pensions and insurance increases? That is not the root of the problem.


Of course they are, and that IS the crux of the problem. By not contributing anything to pension and or health care, or a bare minimum, all of the burden falls on the tax payers in the case of public employees. No one can have it both ways anymore, it cannot be sustained. Econ 101.

Look at the auto industry pensions. a figure I recall is it takes $7000.00 per car just to try to meet current obligations. How in the world can a payout like that continue and still allow cars and trucks to be within reach of the average individual. Public pensions are no different other than the tax payers are the ones footing the bill and have no choice in doing so.

Cody Covey
02-18-2011, 06:16 PM
The ultimate goal is to have a state of corporate lords, overseeing and providing a meager existence for laborers with no say whatsoever in their standard of living or quality of life.

Oh, and lets cut Pell grants and education so that none of them get the crazy notion that they're going to send their kids to school and have a better life. Afterall, an uneducated populace is easier to control.

You don't think people should pay for their own education? Do you also believe that EVERYONE deserves to go to college.

There are stupid people in this world and this world NEEDS people to be janitors and mcdonalds workers. How long until you are required to have a bachelors to work at McDonalds?

Buzz
02-18-2011, 06:27 PM
You don't think people should pay for their own education? Do you also believe that EVERYONE deserves to go to college.

There are stupid people in this world and this world NEEDS people to be janitors and mcdonalds workers. How long until you are required to have a bachelors to work at McDonalds?

No, we wouldn't want to see people get college educations. That might be good for the country or something.

ErinsEdge
02-18-2011, 06:27 PM
Walker wouldn't even qualify to substitute teach in the state of Wisconsin.

I highly doubt that-all you need is a degree and $100 and a background check. I qualified for a substitute teacher but did not renew the license.

I don't think what's being asked for is outrageous

Uncle Bill
02-18-2011, 06:29 PM
Oh, and lets cut Pell grants and education so that none of them get the crazy notion that they're going to send their kids to school and have a better life. Afterall, an uneducated populace is easier to control.



You finally struck upon the true problem facing this nation...the uneducated populace... that elected the current oligarchy. Now to pay for allowing the uneducated to select our nation's leadership that has run the debt up to 14 trillion bucks, it's time to realize some difficult sacrifices must be made.

But it's apparent, your uneducated populace has no understanding of paying the piper...they only know taking from the producers. Dayum...what a revelation to find out the producers don't have any more that can be taken.

That uncanny bit of knowledge seems to be totally beyond the comprehension of your UEP, so they now are into returning to their old mantra of class envy. I can hardly wait until Cotts gets the news that the NY 'rich' are just as broke as the Wisconsin 'rich'. Wonder what he'll do when he can no longer squeeze that blood from a turnip.

I've warned for years, Atlas will shrug, and all that will be left is the whiners and moaners, wondering why they are no longer being taken care of.

And, as far as Blackstone is concerned, you may not have a dog in that Wisconsin hunt, but trust me, that hunt will find you in your state pretty soon.

WAKE UP AMERICA! Your UEP only have their hands out...they don't want to take responsibility for their actions, they just expect to be cared for like always. Hope you libs have deep pockets to handle the care you are expected to produce. You made the promises, so watch out for the repercussions. It's always more difficult when you run out of other people's money eh? Think you can control them now?

UB

Buzz
02-18-2011, 06:30 PM
I highly doubt that-all you need is a degree and $100 and a background check. I qualified for a substitute teacher but did not renew the license.

I don't think what's being asked for is outrageous



And that is the crux of it. Your gov has not graduated from college, so he has no degree. So no, he couldn't substitute teach...


He graduated from Delavan-Darien High School in 1986 then attended Marquette University from 1986 to 1990,[4] quitting about 36 credit hours short of graduation, with a grade point average in the C's.[8]

Walker explained his reasons for leaving college: "In the end, I figured I was in school to get a good job,” he said. “So once I had one, family became more important than getting a degree.”[5] He worked for IBM in sales from 1988 to 1990, and in marketing and development at the Red Cross from 1990 to 1994, according to his LinkedIn profile.[9] He is the first governor of Wisconsin in 64 years to not have a college degree.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Walker_(politician)

Marvin S
02-18-2011, 06:33 PM
On teachers. I don't think this country has a teacher and school system problem as much as it has a parents problem. There are so many things competing for kid's time these days. Hundreds of channels on the stupid box, Wii and playstations, computers & the internet, computer games. Cell phones and texting. Parents who both work and come home tired with chores to do around the house. I live in an area where the schools are very average. Yet my 11 year old 6th grade daughter has had her reading level test out at college freshman. She's doing high school algebra. But I have a dedicated wife who doesn't have to work, and we deny any of these extra activities until homework is done each day. And with the internets it's easy to know what homework is due and when tests/quizzes are coming up. It's all there on the school website, as well as grades. We don't have to wait for report cards to find out what's going on. Sadly my daughter's teacher says that very few parents utilize these tools. In fact a couple years ago a bunch of parents showed up to a school board meeting to complain about too much homework. Interesting I'd say, because when my daughter is struggling with something, I go to her teachers for more resources that we can access to get her through it. At first they seemed stunned, but they are very very helpful, if you ask that is...

IMO - schools should provide a core curriculum. When your child has reached this grade level this is what they will know & if they don't they don't go forward..... Sort of like training a dog, only difference being the dog wags it's tail & shows it's skills, a child will talk to you. This should all be done within the confines of the school day. Home work should be rationed to no more than a 10 hour requirement per subject per semester. There are more meaningful pursuits for children to follow.

But like many, including yourself, the dog training is left to someone else because it's easier to write a check than learn what's necessary to be a good dog person. It's the same with the education profession, they have been acknowledged the pro's when most know little about motivating children to learn. I never had the fancy math taught in schools today but can still outdo most in that skill. Young adults can't even make change if the cash register goes down, that's the learning teachers are imparting & you're praising them for that.

As I told our boys, if the educators think you are the cat's pajamas I will be concerned as they can single the losers for praise every time.

But this is what the system gets, when they flunk out of Mines they go to Vermillion to take business, when they flunk out of Vermillion they go to Madison to become a teacher :(.

Now on a more serious subject, rumor has it that SDSU is building a $23 Mil Dairy Sciences building completely financed by Alumni donations. If you get any news on this would you PM the articles so I can pass them on to my son? Thanks in advance!!!!

Roger Perry
02-18-2011, 06:35 PM
The vote happened in November. What part of that do liberals not understand?
THe taxpayers, who are their employers said enough is enough. Right now every teacher that did not show up for work should be fired.


Yeah, fire all the teachers and let the parents home school their children that will work.:rolleyes: Then the people of Wisconsin will not have to pay any teacher salaries, their tax's won't have to support any sports or extra cirricular activities.

Buzz
02-18-2011, 06:45 PM
But like many, including yourself, the dog training is left to someone else because it's easier to write a check than learn what's necessary to be a good dog person.


Marv, you have no clue how much dog training I do, so do me a favor and keep your opinions on that to yourself.

Cody Covey
02-18-2011, 06:49 PM
No, we wouldn't want to see people get college educations. That might be good for the country or something.

Who said people shouldn't get a college education. I said not ALL people should get a college education ESPECIALLY if they can't pay for it. Stupid people should not be allowed in higher education period. It just wastes the time of the people that can actually handle the course work of colleges.

Uncle Bill
02-18-2011, 06:54 PM
No, we wouldn't want to see people get college educations. That might be good for the country or something.


Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk...it's worked so well to this point, so let's keep it going eh?

Dayum, Buzz, all this education on Americans becoming responsible must be putting a strain on your mushy-parts-upstairs.

First you got the shock about the defunding of Planned Parenthood and the closing down of those abortion clinics...oh wait, no one closed them, they can continue as they have, but bleeding hearts like you will need to start supporting them far more than you have in the past, because Joe Taxpayer has discovered what they really are, and can't find it in his best interests to continue paying for such a group.

Sorry, I just don't have it in me to bring up the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th discovery for the day. Sadly, they all deal with personal responsibility. What makes me curious is how did you become responsible for what you do? Or is it make believe?

Some day, ask me to tell you how I turned my daughter, who had tendancies to become a bleeding heart liberal, (and was frequently lobbying her father to become one also) into a conservative in one simple fairly short conversation. It has served her well.

UB

road kill
02-18-2011, 06:56 PM
This is about the Unions keeping power.

Nothing less, nothing more!!!


RK

Roger Perry
02-18-2011, 06:56 PM
Art Johnson out as superintendent of Palm Beach County Schools

SUBURBAN WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. - On Wednesday night, Palm Beach County School Board voted 6-1 in favor of firing Art Johnson if a settlement agreement is not signed by Monday.
In a span of about a half hour, the board had fired Art Johnson and hired his replacement.
The board has offered Johnson a settlement deal that would pay him $400,000 in a combination of severance pay and accrued time.
If he doesn't agree, he would be fired according to the terms of his contract.
Members have agreed to pay him $235,000 by March 4th, and $150,000 over the course of six months.

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/Art-Johnson-has-til-Monday-to-sign-settlement-agreement

I just wonder how many teacher salaries his settlement would pay.:rolleyes:

If anyone else gets fired from their job do they really get severence pay?

Buzz
02-18-2011, 07:01 PM
I think Walker has one thing in mind. Bust the unions, period.


No chance he is trying to correct wasteful spending and balance the budget??

Maybe you should do a little reading before you make generalized, baseless accusations.

And....he is doing exactly what he said he would do.


RK






This is about the Unions keeping power.

Nothing less, nothing more!!!


RK


So, you're starting to see it my way?

road kill
02-18-2011, 07:02 PM
Art Johnson out as superintendent of Palm Beach County Schools

SUBURBAN WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. - On Wednesday night, Palm Beach County School Board voted 6-1 in favor of firing Art Johnson if a settlement agreement is not signed by Monday.
In a span of about a half hour, the board had fired Art Johnson and hired his replacement.
The board has offered Johnson a settlement deal that would pay him $400,000 in a combination of severance pay and accrued time.
If he doesn't agree, he would be fired according to the terms of his contract.
Members have agreed to pay him $235,000 by March 4th, and $150,000 over the course of six months.

http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/Art-Johnson-has-til-Monday-to-sign-settlement-agreement

I just wonder how many teacher salaries his settlement would pay.:rolleyes:

If anyone else gets fired from their job do they really get severence pay?

uhhhhh.....what the heck does this have to do with Scott Walker and WI????:rolleyes:



I think you are staining the wrong thread.


RK

dnf777
02-18-2011, 07:04 PM
WTF does this have to do with the topic??

Have you read the proposal??:rolleyes:


RK

Having a Palin moment? WTF?

Sorry. I just don't believe everything the goobermint spoon feeds me. In fact, I don't let them feed me anything. Whether its republicans or democrats. But you go right ahead and enjoy.

road kill
02-18-2011, 07:09 PM
So, you're starting to see it my way?

No Buzz, I can't see it your way, I don't have a progressive liberal bias.:rolleyes:

I'll explain it again.

The WI Gov. elect is facing a massive deficit and is trying to balance the budget.
He ran on the platform of balancing the budget and specifically targeted this area.
We elected him.

But the union (WEAC) didn't ever think it would happen.

It has.
Now, in a panic, the union is pulling out all of the stops.

The union does not care about the kids or the teachers, they care about union dues and power.

People like YOU (progressive liberals) lap it all up while your legs tingle.

To Walker, it is about fixing what's broke, keeping his word and balancing the budget.

To the uniuon leaders it's about money and power.

If you really honestly don't get this, maybe you could get a 5th grader to explain it.


RK

dnf777
02-18-2011, 07:14 PM
You don't think people should pay for their own education? Do you also believe that EVERYONE deserves to go to college.

There are stupid people in this world and this world NEEDS people to be janitors and mcdonalds workers. How long until you are required to have a bachelors to work at McDonalds?

I never said anything remotely close to what you just said!

At least when I went to college, we had things called GRADES. Make the grade, or go home! And I think it would be a horrible waste of human resource to deny qualified students a chance to get an education, for lack of financial resources. Many of the people you refer to as "stupid people" (your choice of words, not mine) will declare themselves not to be college material long before the time to fill out apps comes along.

The service academies are free, and tax-payer supported. Would you prefer we board up the windows at Wespoint, Annapolis, and the other academies?

Don't forget, we're not talking adults who have had a chance to make it. We're talking kids, who may not have financial resources available to them, through no fault of their own. If they were studying like they should have been, they probably didn't have time to work a paper route to earn $50-100,000 dollars for a 4 year degree.

Investing in educating our youth is the best investment we can make in our future, IMO.

Roger Perry
02-18-2011, 07:15 PM
uhhhhh.....what the heck does this have to do with Scott Walker and WI????:rolleyes:



I think you are staining the wrong thread.


RK

Ok Mr. Know It All I just did not want to start a seperate thread on teachers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb45lN46cME&feature=related

dnf777
02-18-2011, 07:18 PM
Who said people shouldn't get a college education. I said not ALL people should get a college education ESPECIALLY if they can't pay for it. Stupid people should not be allowed in higher education period. It just wastes the time of the people that can actually handle the course work of colleges.

Not being able to afford college at age 18 has NOTHING to do with whether you're smart or stupid. (your word, not mine)

As for keeping stupid people (your word, not mine) out of college, isn't that what deans of admission are for? Not the government.

allydeer
02-18-2011, 07:19 PM
rk what kinda vehicle do you drive? sound like you don't like union's maybe you should ride a bicycle because good chances that your bike wasn't built by union members:p:p

Buzz
02-18-2011, 07:25 PM
Not being able to afford college at age 18 has NOTHING to do with whether you're smart or stupid. (your word, not mine)

As for keeping stupid people (your word, not mine) out of college, isn't that what deans of admission are for? Not the government.

And if you can't hack it, there's that requirement to keep a 2.0 or better, or it's adios amigo. My freshman year, 1st term the dorm was packed, most double rooms were assigned 3. Second term, plenty of room. Third term, a lot of double rooms were now single occupancy.

Matt Weberpal
02-18-2011, 07:26 PM
No Buzz, I can't see it your way, I don't have a progressive liberal bias.:rolleyes:

I'll explain it again.

The WI Gov. elect is facing a massive deficit and is trying to balance the budget.
He ran on the platform of balancing the budget and specifically targeted this area.
We elected him.

But the union (WEAC) didn't ever think it would happen.

It has.
Now, in a panic, the union is pulling out all of the stops.

The union does not care about the kids or the teachers, they care about union dues and power.

People like YOU (progressive liberals) lap it all up while your legs tingle.

To Walker, it is about fixing what's broke, keeping his word and balancing the budget.

To the uniuon leaders it's about money and power.

If you really honestly don't get this, maybe you could get a 5th grader to explain it.


RK

Tell me how the removal of collective bargaining is going to balance the budget, how much is that costing the state? Please enlighten me.

The only way it will balance the budget is when they don't fill vacant positions due to retirement. Or by cutting extracurriculars or maybe we shouldn't buy any more books.

Franco
02-18-2011, 07:53 PM
Sorry I missed all of this today as I was enjoying being on the water, getting my line wet and basking in the 75 degree temps!;-)

Has anyone mentioned that the Union is busing in Rent-A-Mobs for the demonstrations?

Unions, the downfall of American productivity!

What do all the states that are in deep financial doo doo have in common? They are run by unions!

Bust the unions and return to financial sanity.

Cody Covey
02-18-2011, 08:35 PM
Not being able to afford college at age 18 has NOTHING to do with whether you're smart or stupid. (your word, not mine)

As for keeping stupid people (your word, not mine) out of college, isn't that what deans of admission are for? Not the government.

I was referring to two separate issues that have compounded that have brought us to where we are today. The notion that everyone should go to college is idiotic and has both brought down education standards and raised costs for others to go to school. You are right about one thing the deans of admission should be the ones keeping people out but that's not happening because education in this country is about dollars and not education. Also I find it very funny you are saying the government shouldn't be keeping people out of college but have absolutely no issue with them keeping students in.

Do you think people who can't even get C's in High School should be allowed into College?

Marvin S
02-18-2011, 08:37 PM
Marv, you have no clue how much dog training I do, so do me a favor and keep your opinions on that to yourself.

Actually I do, you advertised it on a thread recently, so I will continue - but this takes away from the discussion at hand, which is how much homework should kids be given.

dnf777
02-18-2011, 08:49 PM
I was referring to two separate issues that have compounded that have brought us to where we are today. The notion that everyone should go to college is idiotic and has both brought down education standards and raised costs for others to go to school. You are right about one thing the deans of admission should be the ones keeping people out but that's not happening because education in this country is about dollars and not education. Also I find it very funny you are saying the government shouldn't be keeping people out of college but have absolutely no issue with them keeping students in.

Do you think people who can't even get C's in High School should be allowed into College?

Again, you're putting ideas into my head. I nowhere, nohow, no way said the government should be "keeping students in". The professors and grading system is what keeps students in or out. I believe I said in my last post, "make the grade or go home!" How do you translate that into my wanting government to override a college's policy on academic advancement???

FWIW, I agree that not everyone needs or should, go to college. I would stop short of referring to them as "stupid" however. (your word) My grandparents didn't finish high-school (coal mine and farm work) but were far smarter than most college grads I know, and I learn something everytime I talk to my Grandfather, to this day.

And where I went to college, there weren't any students who couldn't make a "c" in high school. That was some time ago. If they've lowered standards, shame on them.

dnf777
02-18-2011, 08:53 PM
Actually I do, you advertised it on a thread recently, so I will continue - but this takes away from the discussion at hand, which is how much homework should kids be given.

Could you please start a separate thread on "personal attacks" if you really plan on keeping that vein alive?

Marvin S
02-18-2011, 09:12 PM
Could you please start a separate thread on "personal attacks" if you really plan on keeping that vein alive?

Buzz wears "big boy pants" so don't need someone like yourself pimping for him. That BTW was not a personal attack, it was a regurgitation of factual info as posted by someone now having a bad day ;-).

M&K's Retrievers
02-18-2011, 09:41 PM
Again, you're putting ideas into my head. .....

Good idea. There's plenty of room. :rolleyes:

Eric Johnson
02-18-2011, 10:26 PM
Just to see what all the ruckus is about....

Average MPS Teacher Compensation Tops $100k/year

[Milwaukee, Wisconsin] MacIver News Service – For the first time in history, the average annual compensation for a teacher in the Milwaukee Public School system will exceed $100,000.

That staggering figure was revealed last night at a meeting of the MPS School Board.

The average salary for an MPS teacher is $56,500. When fringe benefits are factored in, the annual compensation will be $100,005 in 2011.

HPL
02-18-2011, 10:55 PM
Has he taken the wrong approach to cutting the budget???
Looking for your opinions.
I have family members that are teachers but on the other hand...............
Sue

I just read an article in Newsweek that said that the average student intending to major in education in United States universities ranks in the 42nd percentile of all students taking the college boards in Critical Reading, 41st in Math, and 46h in writing.

My mother and her sister (my aunt) were both school teachers. I always thought my aunt was smart, and I have proof that my mom is (her GRE score was a MENSA qualifying score which means she scored in or above the 98 percentile). On the other hand, I see many of today's teachers and they can barely speak correct English. Things have certainly changed. Personally I believe that unionization of the teachers and the accompanying reduction of individual responsibility are primary factors.

Cody Covey
02-19-2011, 01:31 AM
Again, you're putting ideas into my head. I nowhere, nohow, no way said the government should be "keeping students in". The professors and grading system is what keeps students in or out. I believe I said in my last post, "make the grade or go home!" How do you translate that into my wanting government to override a college's policy on academic advancement???

FWIW, I agree that not everyone needs or should, go to college. I would stop short of referring to them as "stupid" however. (your word) My grandparents didn't finish high-school (coal mine and farm work) but were far smarter than most college grads I know, and I learn something everytime I talk to my Grandfather, to this day.

And where I went to college, there weren't any students who couldn't make a "c" in high school. That was some time ago. If they've lowered standards, shame on them.
Right it should be the grading system but unfortunately with the huge influx of people that shouldn't be getting into college its severely dumbed down. When I was in school we were spending twice as long on subjects because teachers would teach towards the lowest common denominator. You can pass, and get degrees with D's as long as you have a 2.0 cumulative. You can get quite a few D's before you get dragged down to a 2.0 if you have 180 credits.

You are arguing the GOVERNMENT should be paying to keep the poor 18 yo kids in school...I am sorry if it was to big of a leap to say you are wanting government to keep kids in school....

Andy Symons
02-19-2011, 04:17 AM
The people's voices were heard on election day.

Thank you:)

cotts135
02-19-2011, 05:21 AM
Please cite where Wisconsin gave a tax cut to just the rich? God forbid public employees start getting paid what they are worth and with most public education teachers that is very little...

Try this

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf

dnf777
02-19-2011, 07:08 AM
Right it should be the grading system but unfortunately with the huge influx of people that shouldn't be getting into college its severely dumbed down. When I was in school we were spending twice as long on subjects because teachers would teach towards the lowest common denominator. You can pass, and get degrees with D's as long as you have a 2.0 cumulative. You can get quite a few D's before you get dragged down to a 2.0 if you have 180 credits.

You are arguing the GOVERNMENT should be paying to keep the poor 18 yo kids in school...I am sorry if it was to big of a leap to say you are wanting government to keep kids in school....


Just to be clear....I agree with your first paragraph. Nobody should be given a free ride if you can't make the grade.

I'm not sure you understand my thought regarding your second paragraph. I don't think a lack of resources should keep an otherwise qualified, even gifted student FROM going to college. It would be a huge waste of our natural resources to keep smart kids out of school because they can't afford it. Meanwhile, its the rich kids who are getting the free pass you so decry, because daddy donates to the alumni fund!

road kill
02-19-2011, 07:18 AM
Not to change the subject......BUT;


Governor Walker tells Obama to mind his own business and get to work on his own budget!!!

Pay close attention at the 2 minute mark!!!:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsR3FlZEuBo


BRAVO!!!!


RK

BrianW
02-19-2011, 07:52 AM
Question for the WI residents:
So what is/are the Gov's/State of WI choice(s) in getting the Senate Dems to come back and do their sworn/affirmed duty?
Suspend pay for time missed?
Order State Treasurer to refuse to pay state funds for any charges made by these Senators while not on official state business?
Impeachment for violation of oath of office?
Is there any provision to suspend the quorum requirement in lieu of an declared state of emergency? Ie the Dems were all on a fact finding bus trip or something similar and were kidnapped? ;) (Like anyone would do that but...)

Just pondering.

road kill
02-19-2011, 08:05 AM
Question for the WI residents:
So what is/are the Gov's/State of WI choice(s) in getting the Senate Dems to come back and do their sworn/affirmed duty?
Suspend pay for time missed?
Order State Treasurer to refuse to pay state funds for any charges made by these Senators while not on official state business?
Impeachment for violation of oath of office?
Is there any provision to suspend the quorum requirement in lieu of an declared state of emergency? Ie the Dems were all on a fact finding bus trip or something similar and were kidnapped? ;) (Like anyone would do that but...)

Just pondering.

It has not been explained what exactly all the options are.
The state will not reimburse their expoenses out of state on non-business.

The Senate can remove fiscal considerations and vote on the bill without the Dems.
(BTW--only 1 has to come in, only a majority of a quorem is required, 20 is a quorem)

But there is a lot more coming from Walker than this.
These guys can't run everytime a vote comes to the floor.

And by no reasonable persons definition is cutting and running the Democratic process.

These people ar cowards and being misled.
The lack of leadership on the Democratic side in WI ought to tell you all you need to know.


The Obama political operatives have bussed (their answer to all problems) in hundreds perhaps thousands of operatives to the recent events.

There are a couple of rallies scheduled for today at the state capitol in Madison.


There is much at stake here.
The bvasis of the progressive liberals machine is at stake.

If WI, which has been a liberal mainstay for some time folds, it could be just the first domino to fall.
WI just went through the biggest turn around in political history.
The people here have had enough.
BTW--300,000 state employees, approx 1,500 demonstrators.

This is one of the biggest events in political history if you look at it in those terms.

Evidently others do as well if the Reverand Jackson and Obama's hacks are involved.


Standing by........


stan b

huntinman
02-19-2011, 08:37 AM
RK, are the WI conservatives doing anything to counter the public protest? Such as their own march etc...?

BrianW
02-19-2011, 09:32 AM
There is much at stake here.
The basis of the progressive liberals machine is at stake.

If WI, which has been a liberal mainstay for some time folds, it could be just the first domino to fall.

This is one of the biggest events in political history if you look at it in those terms.

Evidently others do as well if the Reverand Jackson and Obama's hacks are involved.

Yes, it does look like Wi is becoming our "Greece" of sorts.

What's the old Chinese curse/proverb - "May you live in interesting times." :confused:
We's soitenly does!

luvmylabs23139
02-19-2011, 10:02 AM
RK, are the WI conservatives doing anything to counter the public protest? Such as their own march etc...?

Not RK, but the conservatives will march today. They were busy actually working during the week unlike the teachers illegal strike.

Uncle Bill
02-19-2011, 10:09 AM
Not RK, but the conservatives will march today. They were busy actually working during the week unlike the teachers illegal strike.



:D:D:D:D:cool:


UB

Uncle Bill
02-19-2011, 10:11 AM
Of course they are, and that IS the crux of the problem. By not contributing anything to pension and or health care, or a bare minimum, all of the burden falls on the tax payers in the case of public employees. No one can have it both ways anymore, it cannot be sustained. Econ 101.

Look at the auto industry pensions. a figure I recall is it takes $7000.00 per car just to try to meet current obligations. How in the world can a payout like that continue and still allow cars and trucks to be within reach of the average individual. Public pensions are no different other than the tax payers are the ones footing the bill and have no choice in doing so.


I commend you Golddogs....you are spot on with every one of your posts and comments. You have it nailed. I appreciate your views and involvement in this discussion.

UB

Sue Kiefer
02-19-2011, 10:19 AM
I can't remember who or when but........... It was mentioned about special needs students and sports $$$.
I personally do think that sports SHOULD be paid out as a separate cost. (to play BB for example).
In youth Hockey I pay $300 a yr. for my Squirt level son to play + I check the box for volunteer to sell 25 calendars($20 each) and work so many hrs. at the rink(concession, cleaning, ...).IF I choose NOT to check the box THAN I pay another $400 yr. to the rink.
AND I drive my son to his games (OMG)or carpool with others.

My daughter,who plays BB at the local Middle School, I pay an athletic fee of $45. Good Grief.
Should be at least $100, charge an admittance fee to the games, have a volunteered concession stand,a fundraiser,and drive your own kid to the games.(Or carpool)
And yes, I know some parents can't afford it, ..........How about those parents putting in more volunteer time doing something for the school,or selling more whatever...........(fundraiser)
Thoughts..........
Sue

dnf777
02-19-2011, 10:38 AM
I can't remember who or when but........... It was mentioned about special needs students and sports $$$.
I personally do think that sports SHOULD be paid out as a separate cost. (to play BB for example).
In youth Hockey I pay $300 a yr. for my Squirt level son to play + I check the box for volunteer to sell 25 calendars($20 each) and work so many hrs. at the rink(concession, cleaning, ...).IF I choose NOT to check the box THAN I pay another $400 yr. to the rink.
AND I drive my son to his games (OMG)or carpool with others.

My daughter,who plays BB at the local Middle School, I pay an athletic fee of $45. Good Grief.
Should be at least $100, charge an admittance fee to the games, have a volunteered concession stand,a fundraiser,and drive your own kid to the games.(Or carpool)
And yes, I know some parents can't afford it, ..........How about those parents putting in more volunteer time doing something for the school,or selling more whatever...........(fundraiser)
Thoughts..........
Sue

Agree, agree, and agree.

If anyone has a gripe about taking sports out of schools, I would ask why nobody is raising a ruckus that PE classes have been eliminated in many places to allow more "test prep" classes for the wonderful NCLB mandated testing?

A one hour PE class, and a recess is what we got. In North Allegheny school district, we taxpayers are funding a rowing team, and let me tell you, those long skinny rowboats ain't cheap! Nor this the local attorney who coaches the team for a not so reasonable fee! Nor is a 900,000 press box for the local highschool field....or the astroturf....need I go on?

Uncle Bill
02-19-2011, 11:08 AM
I can't remember who or when but........... It was mentioned about special needs students and sports $$$.
I personally do think that sports SHOULD be paid out as a separate cost. (to play BB for example).
In youth Hockey I pay $300 a yr. for my Squirt level son to play + I check the box for volunteer to sell 25 calendars($20 each) and work so many hrs. at the rink(concession, cleaning, ...).IF I choose NOT to check the box THAN I pay another $400 yr. to the rink.
AND I drive my son to his games (OMG)or carpool with others.

My daughter,who plays BB at the local Middle School, I pay an athletic fee of $45. Good Grief.
Should be at least $100, charge an admittance fee to the games, have a volunteered concession stand,a fundraiser,and drive your own kid to the games.(Or carpool)
And yes, I know some parents can't afford it, ..........How about those parents putting in more volunteer time doing something for the school,or selling more whatever...........(fundraiser)
Thoughts..........
Sue


Agree totally, Sue. That's how ALL the non-school related programs are run in our city. Little League baseball...Pop Warner FB...boys and girls soccer. There's always an organization or two that see to it those less fortunate players are properly funded to be on these teams and play these games.

Since Title 9 brought in all the girls teams involved in sports, it was expected that high school sports was now one big pool, and the games that made the big bucks, made up for the games that lost. That has bled over into colleges and universities as well.

However, in many small towns that provide a full array of sports for all kids, even their most well attended games like boys FB and basketball, and girls volly ball are not coming close to offsetting the costs of running those programs. Money spent for lesser sports like soccer and track programs, regardless of gender, are a drain on the schools general fund.

When you attend these functions, about all that are in attendance are the players relatives, so you wonder why tax payers are required to fund these events. How can this be much different than Planned Parenthood...lots of tax payers funding the benefit of the few.

It's all great when the coffers are full of $$$...but when all the sources are broke, it's time to revaluate what the importance of these extra cirricular activities are, and which ones can be continued to be funded by tax payers, or need to be cut.

The free-wheeling of the nation has run out of the funds to keep that life style operating. At the Federal level it's out of control. And many of the states were caught up in the euphoria of the times, but unlike the Fed, the states don't have the unlimited ability to borrow and print the money to pay for these bloated budgets. And now, when reality sets in, those that have been on the receiving end of this national largess think it can just continue as if they aren't part of this disaster.

So now they are finding THEIR ox in the game, and when it gets gored, they are flabbergasted the chickens have decided to roost on their roof.

WAKE UP AMERICA! You've been led down the primerose path by your politicians for far too long. Now the piper needs his due. This is going to get a lot worse before it even begins to get better, so cinch up and be prepared. This is just the beginning of a long haul.

UB

dnf777
02-19-2011, 11:22 AM
Many have argued that the only fair tax is a flat tax. Everybody pays the same percentage.

Why has this not been applied to budget cuts?

Some useful programs get completely abolished, while other pork projects just get a small trim, that doesn't curtail their wasteful existence?

wouldn't a flat-rate cut in spending for all programs be the fair way to effect cuts?

Marvin S
02-19-2011, 11:44 AM
I can't remember who or when but........... It was mentioned about special needs students and sports $$$.
I personally do think that sports SHOULD be paid out as a separate cost. (to play BB for example).
In youth Hockey I pay $300 a yr. for my Squirt level son to play + I check the box for volunteer to sell 25 calendars($20 each) and work so many hrs. at the rink(concession, cleaning, ...).IF I choose NOT to check the box THAN I pay another $400 yr. to the rink.
AND I drive my son to his games (OMG)or carpool with others.

My daughter,who plays BB at the local Middle School, I pay an athletic fee of $45. Good Grief.
Should be at least $100, charge an admittance fee to the games, have a volunteered concession stand,a fundraiser,and drive your own kid to the games.(Or carpool)
And yes, I know some parents can't afford it, ..........How about those parents putting in more volunteer time doing something for the school,or selling more whatever...........(fundraiser)
Thoughts..........
Sue

Let me relate my own experience - In the mid-70's when the distict had suffered it's 3rd levy defeat. Sports went on the block, I suggested that we charge fees for kids to participate, met with a clamor of what about the kids who can't afford a fee. I suggested there was enough work around the district that needed to be done that they could be work credit. When asked for an example I mentioned the new softball field that needed the rocks picked up. The headline 2 days later on the regional rag (now defunct) "Sundstrom Proposes Putting Children on the Rock Pile". The reporter, who was a friend of my Lead at the big kite factory, died two years later of ???. He asked me how I felt about that & Ireminded him of her very biased headline.

A fund raising effort was launched, of which I personally raised more than 10% of the total, though I had no kids that would be affected. Not one of the parents who had kids who would be affected thanked anyone, they were only interested in Suzy & Horace getting something where their effort would be minimal. I've coached a lot of little league sports & founded the basketball program so know what parents & sports combo's are like.

Also at that time I noticed that most of the skills positions at the HS were populated with the children whose parents were public employees. When I brought this to the Superintendents attention, his response was "Please don't go there". So that's why they didn't want to charge for participation!!!! Fee based participation is quite common today.

I personally believe that a well run program is a benefit to the children at a fraction of the cost of classroom activity. Additionally it is a guage on how well the district as a functioning entity is performing. I also believe that less than 10% of the coaches are qualified in their sport, sort of like the classroom.

huntinman
02-19-2011, 11:54 AM
Not RK, but the conservatives will march today. They were busy actually working during the week unlike the teachers illegal strike.

Isn't that the truth?!!

Matt Weberpal
02-19-2011, 03:13 PM
I gave it a full day and my questions are still not answered I see. Mostly just bickering.

Sue Kiefer
02-19-2011, 03:35 PM
Quote: I also believe that less than 10% of the coaches are qualified in their sport, sort of like the classroom.Quote:
OMG how true.
Don't get me started with that. Our high school hired their new Varsity Boys BB coach this summer. He beat out my neighbor's kid who's record of coaching at the youth level(8th grade) was not only impressive but the old Varsity coach recruited him to replace the JV coach when he stepped down.The reason that he didn't get the varsity position??? The school hires teachers first. Our record this season 2-13. His past record of coaching at the Varsity girls level never reached 50%.


It will hurt at the begining of whatever is done or isn't done ....
My classic quote:
"It's always been done like this in the past". :rolleyes::-x
Really???
Here's my quote from Dr. Phil," How's that work'n for ya?";-)
PS. The same should be said for non-school classes.
Band, choir,drama,etc..........
Sue

BrianW
02-19-2011, 03:46 PM
I gave it a full day and my questions are still not answered I see. Mostly just bickering.

Get used to it. There's no guarantee here that anyone will address your questions or points even if/when pertinent and meaningful to the point of the OP.
C'est la vie.

road kill
02-19-2011, 03:47 PM
MD's are on the corners in Madison writting out fake excuses for missing work.

I am sure the ends justify the means, right?


dnf, you are a Dr, would you write me a fake excuse to miss work??

Democratic Senators from WI have offered (thru the media) to accept all conditions except collective bargaining.
Walker says....."Come to work."

The collective bargaining issue is important for local municipalities, so they won't be bound be agreements they simply cannot afford.

I don't know who is calling the plays for the Democrats here, but it is not good........


The taxpayers are going to win, this bill WILL pass.


stan b

huntinman
02-19-2011, 03:49 PM
MD's are on the corners in Madison writting out fake excuses for missing work.I am sure the ends justify the means, right?


dnf, you are a Dr, would you write me a fake excuse to miss work??

Democratic Senators from WI have offered (thru the media) to accept all conditions except collective bargaining.
Walker says....."Come to work."

The collective bargaining issue is important for local municipalities, so they won't be bound be agreements they simply cannot afford.

I don't know who is calling the plays for the Democrats here, but it is not good........


The taxpayers are going to win, this bill WILL pass.


stan b

Probably aren't even MD's... just ACORN... oops...community organizers.

road kill
02-19-2011, 03:50 PM
Get used to it. There's no guarantee here that anyone will address your questions or points even if/when pertinent and meaningful to the point of the OP.
C'est la vie.

That's not true, I have posted many FACTS that address his inaccurate claims.
He choses to ignore them.

I posted the actual bill.
Who actually read it?
I have posted youtube videos of comments made by participants (well, Walker anyways, the Democrats ran away).

And now I have seen videos of the Drs writting false excuses.

The progressives understand what this means.


stan b

Franco
02-19-2011, 03:53 PM
Got to respect Gov Walker for hanging tough and not caving on what he knows has to be done.

Reminds me of when Pres. Reagan had to set the Air Traffic Controllers union straight.:D

huntinman
02-19-2011, 03:59 PM
He should start firing 'em on Tuesday morning if they don't show up for work.

road kill
02-19-2011, 04:05 PM
http://www.jsonline.com/general/37714089.html?bcpid=8725036001&bcplid=794223436001&bctid=795395498001


RK

huntinman
02-19-2011, 04:32 PM
Not no, but hell no!

BonMallari
02-19-2011, 04:35 PM
I did not watch the coverage today but did the Tea Party and others show up in support of the Governor ? His kind of leadership is the type that we need helping to turn this country around, guys like him, Christie, Jan Brewer...very disgusted that the DNC was behind a lot of the opposition fueling the fire...even though it has national implications, I want to see the residents and voters of Wisconsin decide what is good for their state, not a bunch of instigators...They voted for a change in leadership,either join in or get out of the way

road kill
02-19-2011, 04:39 PM
I did not watch the coverage today but did the Tea Party and others show up in support of the Governor ? His kind of leadership is the type that we need helping to turn this country around, guys like him, Christie, Jan Brewer...very disgusted that the DNC was behind a lot of the opposition fueling the fire...even though it has national implications, I want to see the residents and voters of Wisconsin decide what is good for their state, not a bunch of instigators...They voted for a change in leadership,either join in or get out of the way

From what I am hearing (from some who were there) there will be some very interesting stuff coming out about what happened today.

Signs, language, behavior etc.

I beleive in Walker, and supported him in more than 1 way.

This is what he said he would do, he got elected.
The Democrats BRAVELY ran away.


RK

dnf777
02-19-2011, 04:45 PM
I read that the tea party bussed in hundreds to thousands to counter the local protesters, on the Koch brother's nickel. Any truth to this...or is it a blogosphere lie?

huntinman
02-19-2011, 04:50 PM
I read that the tea party bussed in hundreds to thousands to counter the local protesters, on the Koch brother's nickel. Any truth to this...or is it a blogosphere lie?

It would not be a drop in the bucket compared to Obama's minions already there. Get real:rolleyes:

road kill
02-19-2011, 04:51 PM
I read that the tea party bussed in hundreds to thousands to counter the local protesters, on the Koch brother's nickel. Any truth to this...or is it a blogosphere lie?

Actually, it has been the progressives that brought in people such as Jesse Jackson and some big shot AFCSME guy.

Plus some top quality Drs???:rolleyes:

And THOUSANDS of Obama's people have been brought in.


But this is being reported, I have not seen what I would call proof yet.

When I see it I will post it.

Tea party people from around the state of WI did indeed travel to Madison today.


I also heard Republican Senators are hold up in (of all places) the Stae House Rotiunda awaiting the Democrats to come to work!!


RK

BonMallari
02-19-2011, 04:54 PM
I read that the tea party bussed in hundreds to thousands to counter the local protesters, on the Koch brother's nickel. Any truth to this...or is it a blogosphere lie?

when the President of the AFL-CIO shows up its no longer a local matter, when Jesse Jackson shows up its not local protesters, when the DNC helps and encourages this type of discourse its beyond local protesters

huntinman
02-19-2011, 04:56 PM
Here is a good clip of your average teacher who's just doing it for the "children". Develops a little hearing problem when asked about the Dem senators cowardly running from their duties.

http://www.marklevinshow.com/goout.asp?u=http://hotair.com/archives/2011/02/18/video-union-activist-demands-walker-come-to-the-table-on-cnn-but/

Sue Kiefer
02-19-2011, 05:39 PM
Can she hear me at the end?
Of Coarse she can.
Sue

Mary Lynn Metras
02-19-2011, 06:04 PM
You forgot one important piece of the bill, removing the right for collective bargaining.

This is the fundamental reason for the protests, it's not the 12% health care or 5% pension.

Removing collective bargaining would mean that teachers could potentially have class sizes of 40(maybe more) and they would be teaching 7 periods in a row without prep time in between. If you know anything about education then you can see this would put a huge strain on the education of students. The more individualized instruction the better and large class sizes would just make education worse.

IMO!!!This always comes up when collective bargaining is mentioned. I don't see with small class size now the schooling of our children in either country makes the kids any smarter. In fact it might be the opposite Small class size just means there are less kids in the class. At least by teaching 7 periods in a row is equivalent to a nurse or autoworker who works an 8 hour day!You actualy get paid for the hours you work. Other people in the real world do not have prep time to prepare for work. Same argument north is used by teachers. Teachers with collective bargaining (large group) vie for better pension and better benefits which some out in the real world don't have! Some don't even have protected jobs or a job!!! The strain comes when teachers would have to put a full day teaching in! I am not knocking teachers. Some are very good but teachers must get into the real world. This is my opinion!!This subject incenses me north of the border and it looks like it would incense me south of the border. I applaud the Govenor. Sorry I had put a comment on the wrong thread. I found this really interesting seeing it on TV.

road kill
02-19-2011, 06:05 PM
Main Content
DNC playing role in Wisconsin protests

The Democratic National Committee's Organizing for America arm -- the remnant of the 2008 Obama campaign -- is playing an active role in organizing protests against Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker's attempt to strip most public employees of collective bargaining rights.

OfA, as the campaign group is known, has been criticized at times for staying out of local issues like same-sex marriage, but it's riding to the aide of the public sector unions who hoping to persuade some Republican legislators to oppose Walker's plan. And while Obama may have his difference with teachers unions, OfA's engagement with the fight -- and Obama's own clear stance against Walker -- mean that he's remaining loyal to key Democratic Party allies at what is, for them, a very dangerous moment.

OfA Wisconsin's field efforts include filling buses and building turnout for the rallies this week in Madison, organizing 15 rapid response phone banks urging supporters to call their state legislators, and working on planning and producing rallies, a Democratic Party official in Washington said.

The @OFA_WI twitter account has published 54 tweets promoting the rallies, which the group has also plugged on its blog.

"At a time when most folks are still struggling to get back on their feet, Gov. Walker has asked the state legislature to strip public employees of their collective bargaining rights. Under his plan, park rangers, teachers, and prison guards would no longer be able to fight back if the new Republican majority tries to slash their health benefits or pensions," OfA Wisconsin State Director Dan Grandone wrote supporters in an email. "But that's not even the most shocking part: The governor has also put the state National Guard on alert in case of 'labor unrest.' We can't -- and won't -- let Scott Walker's heavy-handed tactics scare us. This Tuesday and Wednesday, February 15th and 16th, volunteers will be attending rallies at the state

He continued:

Gov. Walker won't even talk to state workers about his proposal to strip them of their rights. He is ignoring Wisconsin voices today and asking for the power to drown them out permanently tomorrow.Pretty funny since the Democrats ran away and are hiding out in IL!!We're ready to do all we can to make sure that doesn't happen. OFA volunteers are going to fight for our friends with state jobs, our allies in organized labor, and the freedom of all Wisconsinites to organize their communities.

UPDATE: House Speaker John Boehner called on Obama to pull OfA out of the effort:

“I’m disappointed that instead of providing similar leadership from the White House, the president has chosen to attack leaders such as Gov. Walker, who are listening to the people and confronting problems that have been neglected for years at the expense of jobs and economic growth,” Boehner said in a statement. “I urge the president to order the DNC to suspend these tactics.”



RK

huntinman
02-19-2011, 06:12 PM
It's interesting that Obama takes days or weeks to come to a decision on matters of national security importance ie... Afghan surge. But jumps right in on things that are none of his damn business, ie... Harvard police, WI public employees etc...

Roger Perry
02-19-2011, 06:21 PM
It's interesting that Obama takes days or weeks to come to a decision on matters of national security importance ie... Afghan surge. But jumps right in on things that are none of his damn business, ie... Harvard police, WI public employees etc...

Did you ever stop to think that the reason Obama took time to make a decision on the Afghanistan surge is because many lives were at stake and he had to make sure his decisions were the right decisions unlike another President that shall go nameless?

huntinman
02-19-2011, 06:31 PM
Did you ever stop to think that the reason Obama took time to make a decision on the Afghanistan surge is because many lives were at stake and he had to make sure his decisions were the right decisions unlike another President that shall go nameless?

NO .

Roger Perry
02-19-2011, 06:34 PM
NO .

Of course not. Didn't really think you would.:rolleyes:

Eric Johnson
02-19-2011, 07:18 PM
MD's are on the corners in Madison writting out fake excuses for missing work.
stan b

I've heard that people are impersonating physicians and giving out "sick slips."

Eric

Matt Weberpal
02-19-2011, 07:27 PM
That's not true, I have posted many FACTS that address his inaccurate claims.
He choses to ignore them.

I posted the actual bill.
Who actually read it?
I have posted youtube videos of comments made by participants (well, Walker anyways, the Democrats ran away).

And now I have seen videos of the Drs writting false excuses.

The progressives understand what this means.


stan b

RK,
Your posting of the bill was irrelevent as I already had read it. You never addressed my questions directly, you only posted second-hand responses which have just re-itterated what all the GOP is saying which is avoiding the fact that the unions are all for the insurance and pension increases but want collective bargaining off the table.

Matt Weberpal
02-19-2011, 07:31 PM
IMO!!!This always comes up when collective bargaining is mentioned. I don't see with small class size now the schooling of our children in either country makes the kids any smarter. In fact it might be the opposite Small class size just means there are less kids in the class. At least by teaching 7 periods in a row is equivalent to a nurse or autoworker who works an 8 hour day!You actualy get paid for the hours you work. Other people in the real world do not have prep time to prepare for work. Same argument north is used by teachers. Teachers with collective bargaining (large group) vie for better pension and better benefits which some out in the real world don't have! Some don't even have protected jobs or a job!!! The strain comes when teachers would have to put a full day teaching in! I am not knocking teachers. Some are very good but teachers must get into the real world. This is my opinion!!This subject incenses me north of the border and it looks like it would incense me south of the border. I applaud the Govenor. Sorry I had put a comment on the wrong thread. I found this really interesting seeing it on TV.

Could you please tell me what teachers do during their prep time?

dnf777
02-19-2011, 07:32 PM
dnf, you are a Dr, would you write me a fake excuse to miss work??


stan b


Stan,

I don't write false excuses.....

But knowing what my specialty is, do you really want me looking for a reason?? ;)

Didn't think so.....

Roger Perry
02-19-2011, 07:37 PM
Stan,

I don't write false excuses.....

But knowing what my specialty is, do you really want me looking for a reason?? ;)

Didn't think so.....

Would hemorides work as an excuse???????????:lol:

BrianW
02-19-2011, 08:40 PM
Well, this situation IS being a pain in the ass to a LOT of people!

Just sayin... :D:D

Marvin S
02-19-2011, 09:00 PM
RK,
Your posting of the bill was irrelevent as I already had read it. You never addressed my questions directly, you only posted second-hand responses which have just re-itterated what all the GOP is saying which is avoiding the fact that the unions are all for the insurance and pension increases but want collective bargaining off the table.

In case you are wondering - I'd say you went to the trough too often & are about to pay the price. The antics of your fellow educators on their sick out is something for the nation to behold & does not help your case.

The stakes are high, if the Gov does his job he will deserve a statue right next to the one in NY harbor.

luvmylabs23139
02-19-2011, 09:21 PM
They should revoke the licenses of these doctors!
I certainly hope every note he wrote is rejected as invlaid for sick time.

This is from the AP:

Doctors from numerous hospitals set up a station near the Capitol to provide notes to explain public employees' absences from work. Family physician Lou Sanner, 59, of Madison, said he had given out hundreds of notes. Many of the people he spoke with seemed to be suffering from stress, he said. "What employers have a right to know is if the patient was assessed by a duly licensed physician about time off of work," Sanner said. "Employers don't have a right to know the nature of that conversation or the nature of that illness. So it's as valid as every other work note that I've written for the last 30 years."

charly_t
02-20-2011, 12:17 AM
They should revoke the licenses of these doctors!
I certainly hope every note he wrote is rejected as invlaid for sick time.

This is from the AP:

Doctors from numerous hospitals set up a station near the Capitol to provide notes to explain public employees' absences from work. Family physician Lou Sanner, 59, of Madison, said he had given out hundreds of notes. Many of the people he spoke with seemed to be suffering from stress, he said. "What employers have a right to know is if the patient was assessed by a duly licensed physician about time off of work," Sanner said. "Employers don't have a right to know the nature of that conversation or the nature of that illness. So it's as valid as every other work note that I've written for the last 30 years."

Ah yes, just go some place where a person is sure to be stressed and then get a doc to certify it. Never mind that a person was skipping work before they got stressed. Yep......I knew kids to be stressed back in "the day" when they got caught skipping school ( boy, were they stressed ). "Cart before the horse" so to speak. Good post by the way.

Mary Lynn Metras
02-20-2011, 02:15 AM
Could you please tell me what teachers do during their prep time?

Not teaching! IMO

Duck Blind
02-20-2011, 05:42 AM
They're giving time for the people's voices to be heard, are we still in America?

The people's voices were heard when they voted the governor into office. You can't get any more American than that, can you??

road kill
02-20-2011, 05:59 AM
The people's voices were heard when they voted the governor into office. You can't get any more American than that, can you??

Sure you can.

You can load all of the Dem Senators on a bus and run away and hide in another state!!
(And, frankly, they can stay there)

That's pretty American isn't it???


This isn't Cairo or Athens.....this is Lexington!!!

Batten down the hatches you progressives, this is just the start!!!!


stan b

dnf777
02-20-2011, 06:03 AM
They should revoke the licenses of these doctors!


I already stated that I would not write such notes. But what is your grounds for revoking a professional license?

You are threatening to take away 20+ years of post graduate training, and ending permanently an entire career for what? Someone with whom you disagree with ideologically is becoming politically active?

road kill
02-20-2011, 06:10 AM
I already stated that I would not write such notes. But what is your grounds for revoking a professional license?

You are threatening to take away 20+ years of post graduate training, and ending permanently an entire career for what? Someone with whom you disagree with ideologically is becoming politically active?

No, for lieing and violating the trust and ethics.
Ever see this??????

"“ I swear by Apollo the Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods, and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:
To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art–if they desire to learn it–without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken the oath according to medical law, but to no one else.

I will apply dietic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep myself holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

If I fulfill this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honoured with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot."



RK:D

dnf777
02-20-2011, 07:03 AM
Yes, I proudly took that Oath on June 7, 1996 with 265 of my fellow Jefferson graduates. The version we recited was translated by Herbert Cohen, M.D. JMC '52.

I'm surprised to see you supporting such a socialist contract!
Maybe if congress would follow such ethical guidelines, we would have passed universal healthcare, and education funding, and numerous women and page boys would not have been violated?

And just so you know, there are over 200 versions of the Hippocratic Oath.

Also, the Hippocratic Oath is not a legally binding contract, with which to revoke one's license, in and by itself. It is a social contract that physicians enter into with their past, present, and future patients.

The Oath is why physicians do not strike or demand cash in advance for services, nor deny services for those who cannot pay. Truly unique among modern business practices, with very few exceptions.

And as a side note.....those people are not protesting merely for THIER wages, benefits, etc... Collective bargaining in the United States is what is responsible for the lifestyle and expectations that YOU and everyone on this list who WORKS for a living enjoy. Do you think the Carnegies and Lays and Madoffs in this world would provide decent wages and standards of living if left to their own devices??? Look at what has happened in the coal mining industry since unions have been weakened to near impotence. Compare our mine fatality rate to countries without unions. Day and night.

And nobody has answered why the WI gov has not applied the same "fair" tactics to his police and firemen? If its so great and good for everyone, why are they exempt? Sort of "obama-esque", wouldn't you say?

road kill
02-20-2011, 07:43 AM
Yes, I proudly took that Oath on June 7, 1996 with 265 of my fellow Jefferson graduates. The version we recited was translated by Herbert Cohen, M.D. JMC '52.

I'm surprised to see you supporting such a socialist contract!
Maybe if congress would follow such ethical guidelines, we would have passed universal healthcare, and education funding, and numerous women and page boys would not have been violated?

And just so you know, there are over 200 versions of the Hippocratic Oath.

Also, the Hippocratic Oath is not a legally binding contract, with which to revoke one's license, in and by itself. It is a social contract that physicians enter into with their past, present, and future patients.

The Oath is why physicians do not strike or demand cash in advance for services, nor deny services for those who cannot pay. Truly unique among modern business practices, with very few exceptions.

And as a side note.....those people are not protesting merely for THIER wages, benefits, etc... Collective bargaining in the United States is what is responsible for the lifestyle and expectations that YOU and everyone on this list who WORKS for a living enjoy. Do you think the Carnegies and Lays and Madoffs in this world would provide decent wages and standards of living if left to their own devices??? Look at what has happened in the coal mining industry since unions have been weakened to near impotence. Compare our mine fatality rate to countries without unions. Day and night.

And nobody has answered why the WI gov has not applied the same "fair" tactics to his police and firemen? If its so great and good for everyone, why are they exempt? Sort of "obama-esque", wouldn't you say?

If I signed my name to it, I would live up to my word.

An abstract idea, evidently!!



RK

dnf777
02-20-2011, 07:52 AM
If I signed my name to it, I would live up to my word.

An abstract idea, evidently!!



RK

Please take a moment out of your busy typing day and re-read my post #178 and #187. If you need any help with comprehension skills, let me know.

Let me help anyway. I said:

I don't write false excuses.

I already stated that I would not write such notes.

For someone who can cut and paste pictures of old farts playing a violin, SURELY you can figure out the hidden message in the above cryptic passages?? I would try to make it more simple and clear, but that would require the use of crayons.

starjack
02-20-2011, 07:59 AM
Here is a good clip of your average teacher who's just doing it for the "children". Develops a little hearing problem when asked about the Dem senators cowardly running from their duties.

http://www.marklevinshow.com/goout.asp?u=http://hotair.com/archives/2011/02/18/video-union-activist-demands-walker-come-to-the-table-on-cnn-but/

UMM IS THAT NOT A COINCIDENCE:rolleyes:

road kill
02-20-2011, 08:02 AM
Please take a moment out of your busy typing day and re-read my post #178 and #187. If you need any help with comprehension skills, let me know.

Let me help anyway. I said:

I don't write false excuses.

I already stated that I would not write such notes.

For someone who can cut and paste pictures of old farts playing a violin, SURELY you can figure out the hidden message in the above cryptic passages?? I would try to make it more simple and clear, but that would require the use of crayons.

Meandering off topic and personal.:rolleyes:


RK

caryalsobrook
02-20-2011, 08:04 AM
They should revoke the licenses of these doctors!
I certainly hope every note he wrote is rejected as invlaid for sick time.

This is from the AP:

Doctors from numerous hospitals set up a station near the Capitol to provide notes to explain public employees' absences from work. Family physician Lou Sanner, 59, of Madison, said he had given out hundreds of notes. Many of the people he spoke with seemed to be suffering from stress, he said. "What employers have a right to know is if the patient was assessed by a duly licensed physician about time off of work," Sanner said. "Employers don't have a right to know the nature of that conversation or the nature of that illness. So it's as valid as every other work note that I've written for the last 30 years."

Amazing that a doctor would make such a statement. I wonder if he is in private practice or works for the government. Will he bill insurance for the office visit and treatment? Does time constraints allow for proper evaluation oof each and every patient and records created to support such evaluations? Being a dentist, I have never written such an excuse without being able to answer all of the above questions, much less ritten an invalid exuse. I would think that if he has written an inordinate number of such excuses, this would be of interest to the licensing board and want the above questions. Any thoughts dnf777??

M&K's Retrievers
02-20-2011, 08:27 AM
Amazing that a doctor would make such a statement. I wonder if he is in private practice or works for the government. Will he bill insurance for the office visit and treatment? Does time constraints allow for proper evaluation oof each and every patient and records created to support such evaluations? Being a dentist, I have never written such an excuse without being able to answer all of the above questions, much less ritten an invalid exuse. I would think that if he has written an inordinate number of such excuses, this would be of interest to the licensing board and want the above questions. Any thoughts dnf777??

Don't bother dnf with details. Besides, he's busy looking for his crayons.

dnf777
02-20-2011, 08:29 AM
I'll say for the third time, I would not write such excuses. I get calls almost daily requesting work/school excuses and pain pills. My policy is nobody gets any of the above unless I personally see and examine them in my office.

Its important to note that if this occurred, that person has really stepped out from being a doctor, and became a political activist. That is perfectly within his rights as a citizen, but the prescription pad and pen should be put away at that point, IMO.

That's this MD's opinion and practice.
He may feel he's legit if he briefly examines someone, and writes them an excuse. Whether he works for the gov't (we all do, essentially) or private practice is irrelevant. I would also add, that if any injury or harm comes to those people or anyone they may inflict injury upon, that doctor has indeed established a "duty to treat" under the tenents of malpractice, and may find himself on the wrong end of a civil suit if someone claims they should have been treated more effectively or removed from a potentially dangerous situation. I put NOTHING past lawyers.

dnf777
02-20-2011, 08:32 AM
Don't bother dnf with details. Besides, he's busy looking for his crayons.

Little too quick with your witty response, eh?

The details are above, not that you would understand any of them. And besides, even crayons imply mastery of the written word....so for you, we can try to include pictures in the adult discussions. :D

caryalsobrook
02-20-2011, 08:43 AM
I'll say for the third time, I would not write such excuses. I get calls almost daily requesting work/school excuses and pain pills. My policy is nobody gets any of the above unless I personally see and examine them in my office.

Its important to note that if this occurred, that person has really stepped out from being a doctor, and became a political activist. That is perfectly within his rights as a citizen, but the prescription pad and pen should be put away at that point, IMO.

That's this MD's opinion and practice.
He may feel he's legit if he briefly examines someone, and writes them an excuse. Whether he works for the gov't (we all do, essentially) or private practice is irrelevant. I would also add, that if any injury or harm comes to those people or anyone they may inflict injury upon, that doctor has indeed established a "duty to treat" under the tenents of malpractice, and may find himself on the wrong end of a civil suit if someone claims they should have been treated more effectively or removed from a potentially dangerous situation. I put NOTHING past lawyers.

I think you misunderstood my question. I asked you not to question your ethics but to evaluate that of the subject physician and his possible exposure to sanctions of the licensing board. Questioning whether he worked for the state or is in private pracice goes to the fact that the law may very well affect his own health insurance and pension and as a result affect his TREATMENT, causing him to write fruadulent excuses.

Let me put it another way. If you sat on the licensing board and were confronted with a doctor who wrote such excuses with no proper medical records, no insurance billing and with time constraints that would require essentially no time to evaluate each and every patient, would you choose to sanction such a doctor?

Again, I in no way meant to suggest or imply that you would consider much less do such a thing. Forgive me if I did.

huntinman
02-20-2011, 09:05 AM
Amazing that a doctor would make such a statement. I wonder if he is in private practice or works for the government. Will he bill insurance for the office visit and treatment? Does time constraints allow for proper evaluation oof each and every patient and records created to support such evaluations? Being a dentist, I have never written such an excuse without being able to answer all of the above questions, much less ritten an invalid exuse. I would think that if he has written an inordinate number of such excuses, this would be of interest to the licensing board and want the above questions. Any thoughts dnf777??

Probably a Univeristy of WI Prof

Sue Kiefer
02-20-2011, 09:08 AM
Can we NOT personally attack one another .
Good Grief!!!!!!!!!!!
Each person IS entitled to their own opinion.
That"s what makes THIS country so great.
I started this thread to get just that ... opinions.
NOT personal attacks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can someone please explain to me WHY "collective bargining ISoo darn important important to teachers"?
I remember studying why Unions were established many moons ago.Social Studies class....... (to protect the rights of Factory workers I believe who were working very long hrs. for little pay in extreme conditions)
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Labor_Unions%2C_U.S.%2C_History
And the average Joe Smoe what about his rights as a "Blue -Collar worker?
Yes, class size I get that. But just remember why your average class size has gone up?? Because allot of smaller schools were forced to close. Why is that?? Because our economy sucks.
Sue

BrianW
02-20-2011, 09:20 AM
Its important to note that if this occurred, that person has really stepped out from being a doctor, and became a political activist. That is perfectly within his rights as a citizen, but the prescription pad and pen should be put away at that point, IMO.

That's this MD's opinion and practice.

That's what many have been waiting for Dave. For you to step away from defending yourself against something you haven't done/say you wouldn't do, and comment on other MedPro's actions & statements.


He may feel he's legit if he briefly examines someone, and writes them an excuse. . A brief exam and resultant patient eval happens all the time in mass casulalty EMS, it's called triage, as I'm sure you well know. And the patient does have the right to refuse treatment, as well as to get a copy of the exam form, at least in Idaho.
Not saying this MD's right, but just sayin..

luvmylabs23139
02-20-2011, 09:28 AM
I already stated that I would not write such notes. But what is your grounds for revoking a professional license?

You are threatening to take away 20+ years of post graduate training, and ending permanently an entire career for what? Someone with whom you disagree with ideologically is becoming politically active?

NO, someone who is helping someone else commit fraud. I believe that is conspiracy. These people are not sick. This is no different than a doctor commiting medicare or medicaid fraud. They are defrauding the taxpayers.

luvmylabs23139
02-20-2011, 09:40 AM
Everyone one of these "DOCTORS" should loose their licenses. They are flat out helping people commit fraud. End of story.

Matt Weberpal
02-20-2011, 09:41 AM
Can we NOT personally attack one another .
Good Grief!!!!!!!!!!!
Each person IS entitled to their own opinion.
That"s what makes THIS country so great.
I started this thread to get just that ... opinions.
NOT personal attacks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can someone please explain to me WHY "collective bargining ISoo darn important important to teachers"?
I remember studying why Unions were established many moons ago.Social Studies class....... (to protect the rights of Factory workers I believe who were working very long hrs. for little pay in extreme conditions)
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Labor_Unions%2C_U.S.%2C_History
And the average Joe Smoe what about his rights as a "Blue -Collar worker?
Yes, class size I get that. But just remember why your average class size has gone up?? Because allot of smaller schools were forced to close. Why is that?? Because our economy sucks.
Sue

Sue,
The importance of collective bargaining for teachers is that without collective bargaining the school districts have no say in the type of curriculum they teach and the staff they employ.

Like I said before, as it stands now, the teachers, administrators as well as Wisconsin Education Association Council (WEAC) and Department of Public Instruction all have a voice when it comes to negotiating curriculum and policy.

When collective bargaining rights get removed the state will now have the authority to make those decisions. Who would you rather have make those decisions. A-people who are closely involved with the day to day operations of a school district or B-people who are appointed office that have very little background knowledge of education?

Collective bargaining is a policy issue not a budget issue.

Matt Weberpal
02-20-2011, 09:45 AM
Not teaching! IMO

You have proven to me you have very little knowledge of education.

M&K's Retrievers
02-20-2011, 10:01 AM
...
Can someone please explain to me WHY "collective bargining ISoo darn important important to teachers"?
...

Simply really. Benefits, pay and greed. Look at professional sports. Why do millionaires with a contract need a union?

caryalsobrook
02-20-2011, 10:09 AM
Sue,
The importance of collective bargaining for teachers is that without collective bargaining the school districts have no say in the type of curriculum they teach and the staff they employ.

Like I said before, as it stands now, the teachers, administrators as well as Wisconsin Education Association Council (WEAC) and Department of Public Instruction all have a voice when it comes to negotiating curriculum and policy.

When collective bargaining rights get removed the state will now have the authority to make those decisions. Who would you rather have make those decisions. A-people who are closely involved with the day to day operations of a school district or B-people who are appointed office that have very little background knowledge of education?

Collective bargaining is a policy issue not a budget issue.

You give the best arguement I have seen yet for ending collective bargaining when it comes to education. Certainly the teachers, administrators as well as the WEAC (I don't know who the Dept. of Public Education(the State??) should not only have input but input that should carry some weight.
Removing collective bargaining wouldnot turn education over to the state but to the local boards of education who are elected and can be removed by elections by the PEOPLE.
Doctors, Dentists, Lawyers, Plumbers, Electritions, ect have input that carries weight with their respective licensing boards but they DO NOT have collective bargaining right when it comes to the regulations, standards and ect., much less who they work.

Looks to me as if you have defined the problem quite successfully.

Gerry Clinchy
02-20-2011, 10:44 AM
Are these teachers setting the same example in their classrooms? The means justify the ends?

They are well enough to stand and chant for their politics, but not well enough to go to work? So they get what appear to be bogus "sick slips", so they can get paid for (for a "sick day") their political activism at taxpayer expense? Not the example I would set for my children.

If collective bargaining has been in place for many years, and teachers have influenced policy, then why are our students not better prepared in basic math, reading and writing? Perhaps teachers influencing policy is not a good thing?

As for class size ... in the private college I attended, the required courses in chemistry were in large rooms, probably at least 70 students. The responsibility presenting the material was on the teacher; the responsibility for learning was on the student. In lower levels of education, this is likely not appropriate (elementary students have physiological limitations) ... but by middle and high school some type of discipline should be expected, or these students will not be prepared for the responsibility needed for college learning.

A good teacher is a valuable commodity. I had several that I will always remember. They were worth every penny they earned. As with any profession, there are those who are good at what they do; and others who should do something else.

luvmylabs23139
02-20-2011, 10:49 AM
As for class size ... in the private college I attended, the required courses in chemistry were in large rooms, probably at least 70 students. The responsibility presenting the material was on the teacher; the responsibility for learning was on the student..

We had around 150 in many lecture hall classes including Chem, physics and high level math classes.

Matt Weberpal
02-20-2011, 10:56 AM
The majority of teachers who protested in Madison took unpaid personal days, they can do with those personal days as they see fit.

I'm sure the number of teachers who were getting doctor's slips off the streets will be delt with by their respective school districts and they represent a small portion of the teachers who went to protest in good faith. Like you said there are bad people in any profession education is no exception to that rule.

You're exactly right, class size in secondary and post-secondary education is generally larger, it would be counter productive to have those class sizes at the elementary and middle school levels. However, when it comes to special education at the secondary level, the student to teacher ratio should be 1:7-1:12 to meet the individual needs of each student.

Gerry Clinchy
02-20-2011, 11:09 AM
If they took "personal days", I have no gripe with it.

However, everybody planning a personal day for the same day, which results in work stoppage equivalent to a strike ... not so sure about that. Were kids bussed to school only to have to be taken home since no teachers showed up?

Buzz
02-20-2011, 11:09 AM
We had around 150 in many lecture hall classes including Chem, physics and high level math classes.

This is the lecture hall I learned physics in. Looks like the picture was taken with a small class in attendance. I remember coming in at the last minute before the doors closed and having a hard time finding a seat to sit in. The lecture hall has seating capacity for 476 students. But I was reading last night in an IEEE magazine that enrollment in engineering schools is way down, and interest in engineering has been on a decline for the last 20 years. Maybe that explains the empty seats in the picture.

http://www.admin.mtu.edu/alumni/techalum/images/2010-11/fisher135.jpg


I got a real kick out of reading Cody's comments about unqualified students getting into college and dumbing things down because more time had to be spent getting these unqualified students through. Maybe things have changed a lot in the last 30 years, but when I was there, they had a schedule at the beginning of the semester. You went to class, did your homework, and handed in your assignments on time, took your tests and quizzes when they were scheduled. They did not slow down the other 300 or more students in the class for your benefit. If you couldn't keep up, sorry Charlie, see ya, have a good life...

People who complain about the quality of teachers should consider that the free market is working. In my opinion, for the amount of education required to be a teacher, the pay scales are ridiculous. Twenty years ago in Ohio the schools were crying because they could not get qualified people to teach high school math and science. I tutored in high school and in college and really love explaining stuff to people and seeing the light go on in their heads, so I decided to look into it. At the time, in 1991, I would have had to take a $38,000 a year cut in pay to go teach. Since this whole thing blew up, I sat down and did a conservative estimate, and over the last 20 years I would have given up well over $1 million in earnings. I hear people say that it shouldn't be about money, it should be about a love of teaching. Yea right... I'll admit it, I'm greedy.

The market works.

Franco
02-20-2011, 11:12 AM
Public emplyees shouldn't have the right to Collective Bargaining!

If the don't like what the public is paying, they are free to find another job.

Matt Weberpal
02-20-2011, 11:19 AM
If they took "personal days", I have no gripe with it.

However, everybody planning a personal day for the same day, which results in work stoppage equivalent to a strike ... not so sure about that. Were kids bussed to school only to have to be taken home since no teachers showed up?

No, the teachers didn't just decide that morning they weren't coming to school, the districts that were effected canceled school the night prior so everybody knew ahead of time. I understand that puts a burden on parents. The school days will be made up so the students won't miss out on their education.

The way I see it is they are sacrificing a few days of education for the future of education.

Buzz
02-20-2011, 11:27 AM
No, the teachers didn't just decide that morning they weren't coming to school, the districts that were effected canceled school the night prior so everybody knew ahead of time. I understand that puts a burden on parents. The school days will be made up so the students won't miss out on their education.

The way I see it is they are sacrificing a few days of education for the future of education.

Are they really going to sacrifice days? Here we have had a few snow days this year, beyond a certain number like 4 or 5, the have to be made up because we have a required number of school days here, they can't be canceled.

Buzz
02-20-2011, 11:30 AM
Public emplyees shouldn't have the right to Collective Bargaining!

If the don't like what the public is paying, they are free to find another job.

Like I said above, the market works...

luvmylabs23139
02-20-2011, 11:36 AM
This is the lecture hall I learned physics in. Looks like the picture was taken with a small class in attendance. I remember coming in at the last minute before the doors closed and having a hard time finding a seat to sit in. But I was reading last night in an IEEE magazine that enrollment in engineering schools is way down, and interest in engineering has been on a decline for the last 20 years.

http://www.admin.mtu.edu/alumni/techalum/images/2010-11/fisher135.jpg


I got a real kick out of reading Cody's comments about unqualified students getting into college and dumbing things down because more time had to be spent getting these unqualified students through. Maybe things have changed a lot in the last 30 years, but when I was there, they had a schedule at the beginning of the semester. You went to class, did your homework, and handed in your assignments on time, took your tests and quizzes when they were scheduled. They did not slow down the other 300 or more students in the class for your benefit. If you couldn't keep up, sorry Charlie, see ya, have a good life...
Actually that looks more like the numbers. I can't remember the exact numbers just that it was a huge lecture hall and we took our exams by student id #which had to be shown. We certainly were not known by name by the profs. You went to class or not. Your choice as taking attendence would have used up the entire class time. You found out your score on an exam by checking the posted exam results by student id.
In Cody's defense though, I do remember that we had to take a math placement test prior to freshman class registration in order to get out of taking math classes I had aready taken in high school. All entering freshman has to do this regardless of SAT math score or already earned credits. I had to take a test to find out if I could take a class that I already had been given college credit for that class and the next one. Somethings were and probebly are still just stupid.

Roger Perry
02-20-2011, 11:40 AM
Sue,
The importance of collective bargaining for teachers is that without collective bargaining the school districts have no say in the type of curriculum they teach and the staff they employ.

Like I said before, as it stands now, the teachers, administrators as well as Wisconsin Education Association Council (WEAC) and Department of Public Instruction all have a voice when it comes to negotiating curriculum and policy.

When collective bargaining rights get removed the state will now have the authority to make those decisions. Who would you rather have make those decisions. A-people who are closely involved with the day to day operations of a school district or B-people who are appointed office that have very little background knowledge of education?

Collective bargaining is a policy issue not a budget issue.

I am sure most of the righties here would choose B because they like government making choices for them.:rolleyes: Oh, and you should also add not just appointed to office but also elected to office.;-)

Uncle Bill
02-20-2011, 11:47 AM
I am sure most of the righties here would choose B because they like government making choices for them.:rolleyes: Oh, and you should also add not just appointed to office but also elected to office.;-)


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...you have got to be the most BLISSFUL person on RTF...or, for that matter, in the state of Florida. No wonder you reside at Rio Linde east. WAS!

UB

starjack
02-20-2011, 12:37 PM
No, the teachers didn't just decide that morning they weren't coming to school, the districts that were effected canceled school the night prior so everybody knew ahead of time. I understand that puts a burden on parents. The school days will be made up so the students won't miss out on their education.

The way I see it is they are sacrificing a few days of education for the future of education.

First off in Green bay school system they have late starts once a month. For what i do not know because when i go in all the teachers or a good part of o them are in the hallway talking about everything but school. That in its self put a burden on the parent that have to get to work to help pay the teachers salary. You talk about how this is the way its been done for 50 yrs. Well the parents that are working to pay the teachers salary save what they can to take there kid on vaction for a week because they do not have the luxury of haveing the full summer off. That can get cut short with snowdays true but from a job walkoff . Now how are they going to make this time up i guess they will have to make it up in spring and dont worry about the tax paying parents that are paying there salaies. All those protester had the kids well being in mind dident they.

Marvin S
02-20-2011, 01:14 PM
The importance of collective bargaining for teachers is that without collective bargaining the school districts have no say in the type of curriculum they teach and the staff they employ.

Like I said before, as it stands now, the teachers, administrators as well as Wisconsin Education Association Council (WEAC) and Department of Public Instruction all have a voice when it comes to negotiating curriculum and policy.

When collective bargaining rights get removed the state will now have the authority to make those decisions. Who would you rather have make those decisions. A-people who are closely involved with the day to day operations of a school district or B-people who are appointed office that have very little background knowledge of education?

Collective bargaining is a policy issue not a budget issue.

I have heard this all before - so will counter with a little insight personally gained in my trip through life. I am a product of the SD education system, which consistently places in the top of our country's ( the US for those who don't like being here ) educational achievement surveys.

I was one of those kids the system likes to say is part of their problem - raised by my GP's till 12, & passed around from then on until I went on my own at 15. My food ration coupons were more important than myself when I was handed over to the next person.

The 1st 6 years were spent in various country schools, taught by young women who had recently graduated from HS & attended normal school for 12 weeks. All these schools had their lesson plans dictated by the state, though there was a County Supt who checked the schools regularly to be sure they were meeting requirements, she did not do lesson plans. This was universal through out the state for both country schools & the smaller school systems. & apparently it worked & works quite well because of SD's high national rankings, BTW not attained overnight.

Due to a family situation I was moved to a larger district & lived with my birth mother. She liked her sauce, so there was little money to spend. I went to school mostly in 2nd hand clothes that were Good Will originated. Many of the teachers resented that someone in my circumstances ate the lunch of their pets when it came to doing lessons. They were vocal about that, but fortunately I had heard enough adults make derogatory comments that I was able to weather that. They did their own lesson plans as they were a large district & what they presented was a redo for me.

So wp, that's it in a concise form. Kid with all strikes against him, does well though supposed to be a problem, goes to large district & is bored by the lack of stimulating curricula. Now I will explain it to you, you folks in the educator establishment have been feeding the public this tripe for years. The public is made up of a "Bell Curve" of individuals, the average of those individuals in the education field come from the left side (42%ile) of that curve, while those who populate the engineer, science, MD, DDS fields come from the right side of that "Bell Curve", in fact that group which is in the 85%ile & higher :o. If you haven't read the "Bell Curve" you should, it talks about people who are less than bright doing less than bright things. But you are proposing that those, the 42%iles, are the people who should be doing the lesson plans & providing leadership in the education field. IMM, you have lost that argument before you started :).

But just to show how smart you are not, it's the general public that is fed up with the lack of results & that's why Scott Walker was elected. Who caused the general public to be fed up, the education establishment did. You negotiated for yourselves with little concern for the children who were put into your care, in fact you have used them as pawns.

You can mouth your NEA-WEA tripe all you want to, you're losing this battle in the long run as the well has run dry :cool:.

Matt Weberpal
02-20-2011, 01:38 PM
I have heard this all before - so will counter with a little insight personally gained in my trip through life. I am a product of the SD education system, which consistently places in the top of our country's ( the US for those who don't like being here ) educational achievement surveys.

I was one of those kids the system likes to say is part of their problem - raised by my GP's till 12, & passed around from then on until I went on my own at 15. My food ration coupons were more important than myself when I was handed over to the next person.

The 1st 6 years were spent in various country schools, taught by young women who had recently graduated from HS & attended normal school for 12 weeks. All these schools had their lesson plans dictated by the state, though there was a County Supt who checked the schools regularly to be sure they were meeting requirements, she did not do lesson plans. This was universal through out the state for both country schools & the smaller school systems. & apparently it worked & works quite well because of SD's high national rankings, BTW not attained overnight.

Due to a family situation I was moved to a larger district & lived with my birth mother. She liked her sauce, so there was little money to spend. I went to school mostly in 2nd hand clothes that were Good Will originated. Many of the teachers resented that someone in my circumstances ate the lunch of their pets when it came to doing lessons. They were vocal about that, but fortunately I had heard enough adults make derogatory comments that I was able to weather that. They did their own lesson plans as they were a large district & what they presented was a redo for me.

So wp, that's it in a concise form. Kid with all strikes against him, does well though supposed to be a problem, goes to large district & is bored by the lack of stimulating curricula. Now I will explain it to you, you folks in the educator establishment have been feeding the public this tripe for years. The public is made up of a "Bell Curve" of individuals, the average of those individuals in the education field come from the left side (42%ile) of that curve, while those who populate the engineer, science, MD, DDS fields come from the right side of that "Bell Curve", in fact that group which is in the 85%ile & higher :o. If you haven't read the "Bell Curve" you should, it talks about people who are less than bright doing less than bright things. But you are proposing that those, the 42%iles, are the people who should be doing the lesson plans & providing leadership in the education field. IMM, you have lost that argument before you started :).

But just to show how smart you are not, it's the general public that is fed up with the lack of results & that's why Scott Walker was elected. Who caused the general public to be fed up, the education establishment did. You negotiated for yourselves with little concern for the children who were put into your care, in fact you have used them as pawns.

You can mouth your NEA-WEA tripe all you want to, you're losing this battle in the long run as the well has run dry :cool:.

So you're trying to tell me that educators are below average intelligence? That's what I gathered from your post. I find that extremely hard to believe given the competitive nature of the admission process for the school of education that I attended. You've got to be kidding me with this one.

I've made my points, this thread has now gone too far off topic to continue. Every post I read attempts to derail from the actual issue.

huntinman
02-20-2011, 01:54 PM
So you're trying to tell me that educators are below average intelligence? That's what I gathered from your post. I find that extremely hard to believe given the competitive nature of the admission process for the school of education that I attended. You've got to be kidding me with this one.

I've made my points, this thread has now gone too far off topic to continue. Every post I read attempts to derail from the actual issue.

Can't believe it took this long. Buh-bye

Marvin S
02-20-2011, 01:57 PM
So you're trying to tell me that educators are below average intelligence? That's what I gathered from your post. I find that extremely hard to believe given the competitive nature of the admission process for the school of education that I attended. You've got to be kidding me with this one.

I've made my points, this thread has now gone too far off topic to continue. Every post I read attempts to derail from the actual issue.

The source was a Business Week article posted earlier on this thread. The pool was those who take the SAT.

BTW, I don't believe you've made any thing, except those on this forum understand your motivation for posting. Again, read the Bell Curve though you might have an issue comprehending :-P .

HPL
02-20-2011, 02:13 PM
[QUOTE=weberpal78;754554]So you're trying to tell me that educators are below average intelligence? That's what I gathered from your post. I find that extremely hard to believe given the competitive nature of the admission process for the school of education that I attended. You've got to be kidding me with this one.

Actually, there was just a piece in Newsweek that covered that very subject and indeed, the average person intending to pursue teaching as a career ranks in the mid to lower 40 percentile in reading, writing, and math. Pretty horrifying. There certainly are some really smart folks teaching, (my mom was an elementary school teacher and had a MENSA qualifying score on the GRE) but it is scary that the AVERAGE person headed for an education degree is on the left side of the bell curve (ironically making them somewhat below average, ha ha!).

dnf777
02-20-2011, 02:15 PM
Again, I in no way meant to suggest or imply that you would consider much less do such a thing. Forgive me if I did.

Didn't take it that way. I just reiterated MY position to ward off personal attacks from a few others. If I came off as too defensive, my apologies as well.
I answered RK's question directly, and was accused of wandering off topic. I'm trying to avoid any more silly posts like that.

I sit on both the credentialing committee and quality improvement committee for my hospital, and would rather not discuss such matters publicly. Nothing useful will come of it anyway, as republicans want their tickets pulled, and liberals would give them awards. And that's likely as far and deep as any discussion on this forum will get.

road kill
02-20-2011, 02:24 PM
No, the teachers didn't just decide that morning they weren't coming to school, the districts that were effected canceled school the night prior so everybody knew ahead of time. I understand that puts a burden on parents. The school days will be made up so the students won't miss out on their education.

The way I see it is they are sacrificing a few days of education for the future of education.

That is not true.
Milwaukee Public Schools (the largest district in WI) canceled classes Friday morning when ove 600 teachers called in sick that morning.

You play pretty fast and loose with the truth Matt.

Just out of curiosity, which district do you teach in??


BTW---The point of this is to GIVE control to the local districts, not the union.
The WEAC forces smaller districts to pay more in health and pension benefits than they can afford.

Also, if this doesn't pass (and it WILL) over 6,000 state employeees will lose their joibs.

Tell me Matt, which ones should give up their jobs so YOU can keep yours??

stan b

road kill
02-20-2011, 02:32 PM
Can we NOT personally attack one another .
Good Grief!!!!!!!!!!!
Each person IS entitled to their own opinion.
That"s what makes THIS country so great.
I started this thread to get just that ... opinions.
NOT personal attacks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can someone please explain to me WHY "collective bargining ISoo darn important important to teachers"?I remember studying why Unions were established many moons ago.Social Studies class....... (to protect the rights of Factory workers I believe who were working very long hrs. for little pay in extreme conditions)
http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Labor_Unions%2C_U.S.%2C_History
And the average Joe Smoe what about his rights as a "Blue -Collar worker?
Yes, class size I get that. But just remember why your average class size has gone up?? Because allot of smaller schools were forced to close. Why is that?? Because our economy sucks.
Sue

It's NOT important to the teachers.

It IS important to the union.
If the union loses this, then why belong??


They can still collect their dues, but what has the union done for teachers, students or education in the last 10 years?

But the HAVE worked tirelessly for the Democrats.

WI ranks towards the top of state employees (teachers) compensation.
Oddly, the rank towards the bottom in test scores and ither metrics used to measure education.
BTW--Ranking towards the bottom in a country that is headed internationally towards the bottom is disgraceful.
It is clear that what is being doine now is NOT working!!!




Game, Set & Match.....RK:D

dnf777
02-20-2011, 02:39 PM
WI ranks towards the top of state employees (teachers) compensation.
Oddly, the rank towards the bottom in test scores and ither metrics used to measure education.
BTW--Ranking towards the bottom in a country that is headed internationally towards the bottom is disgraceful.
It is clear that what is being doine now is NOT working!!!

Game, Set & Match.....RK:D

that's a lot of carefully crafted statements to support your position.

Care to cite a valid reference or two to back up those claims?

The rank list I saw put WI at #20, hardly near the top. Its comfort index was rather low at 28.

http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state

Another survey puts it at #24...kinda middle of the pack, rather than "near the top"?

http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/average-teacher-salary-wisconsin.html

Just thought I'd add a little bit of factual data to the conversation.
Just tryin' to help....

road kill
02-20-2011, 02:41 PM
that's a lot of carefully crafted statements to support your position.

Care to cite a valid reference or two to back up those claims?

The rank list I saw put WI at #20, hardly near the top. Its comfort index was rather low at 28.

http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state
There are 50 (or 57;-)) states.
Ranking 20th wouldn't put you near the top??

Really??

I mean Really?????

It's always gotta be about YOU doesn't it?????

Here is a tip, this is about what is going on in WI.



RK

dnf777
02-20-2011, 02:53 PM
Quality of education is more difficult to rank. One way to to look at standardized test scores, the SAT being on of the more well-known and widely accepted. You claimed that WI ranks "near the bottom in test scores and other metrics used to measure education"

Well, the SAT rankings by state indicate your statement is completely false.

Top SAT State Scores include Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota and Missouri. These States primarily have their students take the ACT test so their numbers may not be representative of the entire state.

The Worst States for SAT Scores include Maine, Hawaii, South Carolina, Georgia and New York. DC is also very low.
Here is the ranking of SAT Scores by State List:

2009 State Sat Scores


Rate Reading Math Writing Total
1 Iowa 3% 610 615 588 1813
2 Wisconsin 5% 594 608 582 1784
3 Minnesota 7% 595 609 578 1782
4 Missouri 5% 595 600 584 1779
5 Illinois 6% 588 604 583 1775
6 Michigan 5% 584 603 575 1762
7 South Dakota 3% 589 600 569 1758
8 Nebraska 4% 587 594 572 1753
9 North Dakota 3% 590 593 566 1749
10 Kansas 7% 581 589 564 1734
11 Kentucky 7% 573 573 561 1707
12 Oklahoma 5% 575 571 557 1703
13 Tennessee 10% 571 565 565 1701
14 Arkansas 5% 572 572 556 1700
15 Colorado 20% 568 575 555 1698
16 Wyoming 5% 567 568 550 1685
17 Mississippi 4% 567 554 559 1680
18 Louisiana 7% 563 558 555 1676
19 Alabama 7% 557 552 549 1658
20 Utah 6% 559 558 540 1657
21 New Mexico 11% 553 546 534 1633
22 Ohio 22% 537 546 523 1606
23 Montana 22% 541 542 519 1602
24 Idaho 18% 541 540 520 1601
25 Washington 53% 524 531 507 1563
26 New Hampshire 75% 523 523 510 1557
27 Massachusetts 84% 514 526 510 1551
28 Oregon 52% 523 525 499 1548
29 Vermont 64% 518 518 506 1543
30 Connecticut 83% 509 513 512 1535
31 Arizona 26% 516 521 497 1534
32 Alaska 46% 520 516 492 1528
33 Virginia 68% 511 512 498 1522
34 California 49% 500 513 498 1511
35 West Virginia 18% 511 501 499 1511
36 New Jersey 76% 496 513 496 1506
37 Maryland 69% 500 502 495 1498
38 Rhode Island 66% 498 496 494 1489
39 North Carolina 63% 495 511 480 1487
40 Nevada 42% 501 505 479 1485
41 Indiana 63% 496 507 480 1484
42 Delaware 71% 495 498 484 1478
43 Pennsylvania 71% 493 501 483 1478
44 Florida 59% 497 498 480 1476
45 Texas 51% 486 506 475 1468
46 New York 85% 485 502 478 1466
47 Georgia 71% 490 491 479 1461
48 South Carolina 67% 486 496 470 1453
49 Hawaii 58% 479 502 469 1451
50 Maine 90% 468 467 455 1391
51 DC 79% 466 451 461 1379
All Students 46% 501 515 493 1509

That is, unless you consider #2 in the nation "near the bottom"

dnf777
02-20-2011, 02:57 PM
There are 50 (or 57;-)) states.
Ranking 20th wouldn't put you near the top??

Really??

I mean Really?????

It's always gotta be about YOU doesn't it?????

Here is a tip, this is about what is going on in WI.



RK


Good way to not deal with the issue brought to your attention!

And maybe if you strive for mediocrity, 20/50 is close enough to the top. I consider it closer to the middle.

Really.

And no, its not about me. Its about you. You pulling numbers out of your arse! Why should you be held to any lesser standard than the rest of us here, who get called to the floor for inaccurate or un-referenced numbers???

No need to get personal Stan. Just show me the numbers, and I'll happily accept your claims, and let it go.

road kill
02-20-2011, 02:57 PM
I can show you sites as well.

And they don't match what you came up with.

But You are not the issue here, WI is.

In fact, I am certain based on your searches, you saw plenty to support my statement, not yours.
You see, I have done the sames searches.

Pretty selective.
I am not going to get into one of your Gibson specials.

You really don't figure into this conversation.

I was impressed when you finally answered my question on ethics, and respected your answer, but now we're back to where we were.


RK

dnf777
02-20-2011, 03:03 PM
I can show you sites as well.

And they don't match what you came up with.

But You are not the issue here, WI is.

In fact, I am certain based on your searches, you saw plenty to support my statement, not yours.
You see, I have done the sames searches.

Pretty selective.
I am not going to get into one of your Gibson specials.

You really don't figure into this conversation.

I was impressed when you finally answered my question on ethics, but then we're back to where we were.


RK

Please do. That is customarily what is done, especially when claims are called into question.

Oh, I noticed my state listing of SAT scores indicated that the top several states (including WI) use primarily the ACT. So as to not be misleading, I checked the state rankings of ACT scores:


ACT Composite Scores by State
2010 scores for states testing 50 percent or more of their high school graduates*

Top Ten States
State Rank Average
Composite Score % of Graduates
Tested
Minnesota 1 22.9 70
Iowa 2 22.2 60
Wisconsin 3 22.1 69
Nebraska 4 22.1 73
Montana 5 22.0 58
Kansas 6 22.0 75
South Dakota 7 21.8 79
Utah 8 21.8 71
Ohio 9 21.8 66
Idaho 10 21.8 60

http://www.ohe.state.mn.us/mPg.cfm?pageID=1439

Notice, I included references. Actually, the list itself is cut/pasted directly.

Don't feel bad. Even though your argument goes out the window, you should be proud to live in a state that ranks highly in education! Be proud of your teachers.....they're doing a great job!


Again, no need to get personal. I'm being very courteous and civil. While I do not live in WI, I do live in the United States. Education is very important to me, and to hear a group of teachers being falsely maligned, makes it my business. You make them out to be a bunch of yahoos running a system "near the bottom" while getting overpaid "near the top". What the facts as I have presented show is that while getting paid near average wages on a national scale, they have produced the highest achievers on college entrance exams. Quite a different story that what you put forth. So I called you to present some data. Still waiting.

Buzz
02-20-2011, 03:26 PM
State employeee compensation comparison;


http://www.lvchamber.com/files/pdf/FAB-state-to-state-comparison.pdf

Please reveiw slide 12.
19th is towards the top.

More to follow.

RK


Were you guys talking about teachers or state employees. I looked at the presentation you linked and I'm trying to wrap my head around it. Are teachers employed by the state or by school districts?

If you guys think that teachers are bad, I have and continue to argue that the free market is working. Teacher pay is so pathetic, over achievers will choose to do something else with their lives.

dnf777
02-20-2011, 03:32 PM
Were you guys talking about teachers or state employees. I looked at the presentation you linked and I'm trying to wrap my head around it. Are teachers employed by the state or by school districts?

If you guys think that teachers are bad, I have and continue to argue that the free market is working. Teacher pay is so pathetic, over achievers will choose to do something else with their lives.

Yeah. I'm trying to figure out what the Nevada CoC has to do with this???
Talk about an obscure reference. Besides, that is looking at all state employees, and I don't even know if teachers are in that mix at all, let alone how much influence their salaries have on the whole.

I will readily admit, as I already have, that ranking quality of education is a difficult task. NO doubt there will be wide variations on that, depending on whose data you look at. I have no problem admitting that. But to say they're near the bottom, while ranking second and third on college entrance exams, just doesn't jive.

road kill
02-20-2011, 03:33 PM
Were you guys talking about teachers or state employees. I looked at the presentation you linked and I'm trying to wrap my head around it. Are teachers employed by the state or by school districts?

If you guys think that teachers are bad, I have and continue to argue that the free market is working. Teacher pay is so pathetic, over achievers will choose to do something else with their lives.

WEAC is the WI state teachers union that negotiates the contracts for all teachers throughout WI.

That is a HUGE problem for many municipalities, districts and counties.

They simply can no longer afford to pay this burden.
So, yes, state employees and teachers are one and the same.

It is never as simple as one side (mine or theirs) claims it to be.


stan b

dnf777
02-20-2011, 03:40 PM
State Number of High Schools* Number eligible for full analysis Awarded bronze or better Bronze or better medal (% of total) Awarded silver or gold Silver or gold (% of total) Awarded Gold Gold (% of total)

Anyways, gotta go for now, this is about WI and our excellent Governer, not dnf.



RK

Nice try Stan. That's not "more to follow" that's just cut and pasted from the source you already mentioned. (Edit: but have since disappeared??)

And no, its not about me. Its about you pulling claims out yer roundfile, which you have yet to address.

Have a good one.

road kill
02-20-2011, 03:45 PM
My apologies to those following this thread.
I got sucked into a Gibson with dnf.


I appreciate the e-mails thanking me for the updates and pointing out the obvious.
I will continue with the updates.

Again, thanks for the heads up, my bad, yes I agree, we all know what he is.......

stan b

huntinman
02-20-2011, 03:59 PM
The ACt/SAT scores don't show the true picture of the state of the WI ed system. It only shows the avg score for the college bound students. What % of the overall student population is that? How did the rest of the students do on their acheivement tests? You can make the numbers say anything you want them to say.

The only numbers that matter in this issue happened on election night.

huntinman
02-20-2011, 04:16 PM
Breaking News...WI Teachers Union Head calls for teachers to go back to class. (On Foxnews.com)

Now if the Dem Senators would show up for work, they could get something done...

Marvin S
02-20-2011, 04:48 PM
Teacher pay is so pathetic, over achievers will choose to do something else with their lives.

The numbers I did for 7 years while negotiating tell a much different story than that. Most over achievers do not want to want to be around others who whine all the time, they just want to over achieve. There are some in the profession who do a good job. Unfortunately folks like yourself who sound off without knowing what they are talking about are a huge detriment to fixing any problem.

Many years back I attended a pre management class at Boeing. The instructor started his opening remarks with a comment about underpaid teachers. I raised my hand & when recognized said "I hope you know more about the subject that you are going to present than you do about compensation in education". No more was said during the class which was 12 weeks long. Towards the end the class was asked to bring up subjects that they would like to see in slide presentations. 2 were chosen, 1 of which was "Compensation in Education", which I was asked to present. Now mind you these people were being considered for management at the big kite factory, they only interview the top 25% in any engineering class for example, though there were other discipline in the class. After my presentation which was before I was aware of the sorry ranking of potential educators on the SAT, the class was astounded that the MSM could be so biased in their reporting as to not have made the public aware of these facts.

I also know someone who does a number of divorces in their law practice. They are astounded at the high levels of compensation for public employees, teachers included, compared to those in the private sector. As they say, a salary in the private sector is that, in the public sectors the add ons can equal 20% more without even factoring in OT, I can remember a Jr Hi Principal who wanted more money because he was treasurer for the PTA.


The ACt/SAT scores don't show the true picture of the state of the WI ed system. It only shows the avg score for the college bound students. What % of the overall student population is that? How did the rest of the students do on their acheivement tests? You can make the numbers say anything you want them to say.

The only numbers that matter in this issue happened on election night.

Only the conservatives will respect that & go back to work.

When I took whatever test in SD, it was a requirement that all take it as it was a report card of sorts. Especially if the powers that be used it properly! Many districts do not let the children take the test if they are not college bound or believed to be lacking, so any postings on the subject would need that disclaimer.

dnf777
02-20-2011, 04:58 PM
My apologies to those following this thread.
I got sucked into a Gibson with dnf.


I appreciate the e-mails thanking me for the updates and pointing out the obvious.
I will continue with the updates.

Again, thanks for the heads up, my bad, yes I agree, we all know what he is.......

stan b


That BS Stan, and you know it!


What is so bad about asking someone to back up a claim with some proof?
One can't say the sky is blue around here without being challenged. It happens to all of us. Why when it happens to you, is it something so terrible? Did I call you any names? Did I insult you personally? Or did I just ask for some references?

Get real. Get thicker skin man. I did nothing except ask for proof. If this is inappropriate, please tell me why.

dnf777
02-20-2011, 05:03 PM
The ACt/SAT scores don't show the true picture of the state of the WI ed system. It only shows the avg score for the college bound students. What % of the overall student population is that? How did the rest of the students do on their acheivement tests? You can make the numbers say anything you want them to say.

The only numbers that matter in this issue happened on election night.

Exactly huntingman. That's why I acknowledge that there will be wide variation in rankings of quality. I wholeheartedly agree that SAT/ACT scores are not end-all to judging quality of education. But if the kids who choose to go to college (and by the way, that list only ranked states in which over 50% of seniors took the test) scored number two or number three in the country, I think the teachers are doing at least a bang up job, eh?

The issue of salaries is a different story. That is hard data that speaks for itself. WI lands right in the middle of the pack on that one.

I likewise apologize if asking for factual data offended or hurt anyone. Its just one of those house rules I was taught to use in debates.

M&K's Retrievers
02-20-2011, 05:09 PM
Exactly huntingman. That's why I acknowledge that there will be wide variation in rankings of quality. I wholeheartedly agree that SAT/ACT scores are not end-all to judging quality of education. But if the kids who choose to go to college (and by the way, that list only ranked states in which over 50% of seniors took the test) scored number two or number three in the country, I think the teachers are doing at least a bang up job, eh?

The issue of salaries is a different story. That is hard data that speaks for itself. WI lands right in the middle of the pack on that one.

I likewise apologize if asking for factual data offended or hurt anyone. Its just one of those house rules I was taught to use in debates.

Ah, a master debater as well. :rolleyes:

Pals
02-20-2011, 05:11 PM
AND Illinois moronic governor is encouraging WI's public officals to skirt their elected duties by hiding down here!! What is wrong with this picture?

So absurd. You can't make this crap up............

dnf777
02-20-2011, 05:24 PM
Ah, a master debater as well. :rolleyes:

Of everything that was said, you choose THAT as your sophomoric reply?

How do you feel about asking for references to back up claims that are called into question. Is this insulting or too personal? I've been called to the mat many times for claims that I've made, as have almost everyone here. Several people have been admonished for not citing references.

I'm interested to hear what you think about that.

caryalsobrook
02-20-2011, 05:30 PM
I have heard this all before - so will counter with a little insight personally gained in my trip through life. I am a product of the SD education system, which consistently places in the top of our country's ( the US for those who don't like being here ) educational achievement surveys.

I was one of those kids the system likes to say is part of their problem - raised by my GP's till 12, & passed around from then on until I went on my own at 15. My food ration coupons were more important than myself when I was handed over to the next person.

The 1st 6 years were spent in various country schools, taught by young women who had recently graduated from HS & attended normal school for 12 weeks. All these schools had their lesson plans dictated by the state, though there was a County Supt who checked the schools regularly to be sure they were meeting requirements, she did not do lesson plans. This was universal through out the state for both country schools & the smaller school systems. & apparently it worked & works quite well because of SD's high national rankings, BTW not attained overnight.

Due to a family situation I was moved to a larger district & lived with my birth mother. She liked her sauce, so there was little money to spend. I went to school mostly in 2nd hand clothes that were Good Will originated. Many of the teachers resented that someone in my circumstances ate the lunch of their pets when it came to doing lessons. They were vocal about that, but fortunately I had heard enough adults make derogatory comments that I was able to weather that. They did their own lesson plans as they were a large district & what they presented was a redo for me.

So wp, that's it in a concise form. Kid with all strikes against him, does well though supposed to be a problem, goes to large district & is bored by the lack of stimulating curricula. Now I will explain it to you, you folks in the educator establishment have been feeding the public this tripe for years. The public is made up of a "Bell Curve" of individuals, the average of those individuals in the education field come from the left side (42%ile) of that curve, while those who populate the engineer, science, MD, DDS fields come from the right side of that "Bell Curve", in fact that group which is in the 85%ile & higher :o. If you haven't read the "Bell Curve" you should, it talks about people who are less than bright doing less than bright things. But you are proposing that those, the 42%iles, are the people who should be doing the lesson plans & providing leadership in the education field. IMM, you have lost that argument before you started :).

But just to show how smart you are not, it's the general public that is fed up with the lack of results & that's why Scott Walker was elected. Who caused the general public to be fed up, the education establishment did. You negotiated for yourselves with little concern for the children who were put into your care, in fact you have used them as pawns.

You can mouth your NEA-WEA tripe all you want to, you're losing this battle in the long run as the well has run dry :cool:.

Quite a post MS. I suspect that if you were to list your accomplishments, there are a number of us that would be proud to be in your league. I suspect your achievements are remarkable and won't ask you to enumerate them. I would though like you to aknowledge the people, organizations and those things that were so important in your journey. That surely would be enlightening.

Again thanks for the post.

sandyg
02-20-2011, 05:34 PM
To DNF:

I,I,I,I,I,I,I,I,
aye yigh yigh!
Give it a rest already.

BrianW
02-20-2011, 05:58 PM
The ACt/SAT scores don't show the true picture of the state of the WI ed system. It only shows the avg score for the college bound students. What % of the overall student population is that? How did the rest of the students do on their acheivement tests? You can make the numbers say anything you want them to say.

The only numbers that matter in this issue happened on election night.

Not to hijack the WI focus of this thread, but I appreciate DNF posting the SAT/ACT scores here.
Ya see, I seem to remember someone here, who will remain nameless, recently trying to imply that certain states with the worst schools and ranked at the botom (like Nebraska, Idaho, & Mississippi) because they were red state/Republican.
Isn't it interesting that states with the worst public schools are all vote rebublican? (Nebraska, Idaho, Miss.) I see your point, and understand why republicans want to dismantle public education. A stupid populace is an easily controlled one.#10 on ACT's & 24 on SAT's isn't exactly at the bottom is it?

Making math work regards :D

PS Speliing & grammar from the ref'd quote are as originally posted (Not huntinman's) Just sayin.