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View Full Version : Med School - Chiro School Compared



Doc E
03-18-2011, 08:21 PM
The following was compiled from 125 Medical Schools as they compare to the College of Chiropractic at the National University of Health Sciences.
The numbers are classroom hours.
.................................................. ........MED ........CHIRO

Pharmacokinetics (Pharmacology).............. 114 ........... 38

Pathology ............................................ 166 ........... 263

Microbiology ......................................... 136 ........... 136

Public Health ........................................ 61................ 41

Nutrition .............................................. 24 .............. 122

Genetics .............................................. 31 ............... 27

Physiology ............................................ 125.............. 255

Radiological Anatomy .............................. 14 .................30

Neuroanatomy ....................................... 82 .................94

Biochemistry ......................................... 109 ..............135

Histology .............................................. 105 ..............107

Embryology ........................................... 34 .................40

Gross Anatomy ...................................... 173 ..............336



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Ryan Lee
03-18-2011, 09:36 PM
are you chiro?

Creek Retrievers
03-18-2011, 11:49 PM
Do chiropractors have to go through residency or fellowships like doctors?

Please don't attack Doc E or try to single me out, it is an honest question with no negative intentions.

precisionlabradors
03-19-2011, 12:05 AM
so with all that education there really is no excuse for being subpar in the medical industry, then. :D:D

Doc E
03-19-2011, 12:06 AM
cudexter
Yes
~~~~~~~~~~~~

CeekRetrievers

Yes, we have an Internship
And we also have Docs in various Residency Programs.



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limiman12
03-19-2011, 02:00 AM
Doc, we have more radiology then that, we have close to 300 at least at Cleveland we did. maybe it just seemed like it though ;-) but I know we had at least five different classes, normal, skeletal I II, positioning, and that horrible class with DR whitehead that 50% OF THE GRADE was the practical final when we walked in, he gave us a case hx, we had to list possible differentials for the case hx, ask for what films we would take, look at the films, give a new list of differentials based on the x-ray, what labs we would would do and what advanced studies we would order to prove disprove the differential, if we picked the right labs he gave us results (wrong labs or ask for the wrong films you were done good luck next semester) we had to interpret results, give the most likely diagnosis, what could be done (medically or physical treatments) and a prognosis. X-ray case presentation was the name of the class, it came to me, god that was a horrible final. I had some sort of osteosarcoma if I remember right, can't remember what the case was, but the Diagnosis was not a classic age group or location, and I had to "order" two sets of specail imaging, and three sets of labs, luckily I ordered them in the same order the treating team of physicians had. Never been so scared for a test in my life, never sweated a test out so bad, or so relieved when a teacher said "great job"

wow that was scary thinking about it, wonder why I blocked the name of the class ;-) Oh we also had a special imaging class.... (my practical final in that I had to "diagnose" a sinus infection based on nothing but an MRI, not high on the list of things I was looking for when they put a head MRI up, took like five mintues then it was like DUH! there it is....

The main point of doc posting the hours is to point out that DC and MD eduction is equivalent. there are differences, they have a longer residency on average, as much so that hospitals have a source for slave labor as anything ;-) and there are certainly diffferences between schools, both med schools and DC schools. I think the point had been previously proven on the other thread, but it had been a while since I had seen the side by side, we used to have it posted in our office, we took it down because unless provoked I generally stay away from the "My school was harder then yours"

Like mentioned earlier, there are just as many idiot DC's out there as there are idiot MD's, and that should scare the crap out of you, but there are also some really good ones in both fields. Find a MD, DC, AND Pharmacist(maybe most important if you are on any meds) you trust, shy away from any doc that thinks any other healthcare provider is worthless (should be humble enough to look something up or referr out/get second opinion) and be educated on your own health. YOU should be the captain of your healthcare TEAM.

BonMallari
03-19-2011, 02:56 AM
Like mentioned earlier, there are just as many idiot DC's out there as there are idiot MD's, and that should scare the crap out of you, but there are also some really good ones in both fields. Find a MD, DC, AND Pharmacist(maybe most important if you are on any meds) you trust, shy away from any doc that thinks any other healthcare provider is worthless (should be humble enough to look something up or referr out/get second opinion) and be educated on your own health. YOU should be the captain of your healthcare TEAM.


One of the most sensible and accurate comments on the medical profession...wish more people had that attitude:D:D

dnf777
03-19-2011, 07:14 AM
One of the most sensible and accurate comments on the medical profession...wish more people had that attitude:D:D

x2.

I would add that a list of hours spent in a classroom translate very little into clinical competence. We used to joke that 4 years of med school was really just a glorified vocabulary course, and that the REAL learning took place in internship and residency (and fellowships). We also used to take as much time off during fourth year, knowing it would be 3-7 years before we would see sunlight again. I don't know about the iodide thing, but we felt the need to take Vit D supplements in residency! ;)

Another cliche from school that is probably accurate, is that the two people I would NOT let operate on me....the person at the bottom of the class.....and the person at the TOP of the class. If ya know what I mean. ;)

Doc E
03-19-2011, 08:07 AM
Fritz

The numbers weren't for Radiology, but only for Radiographic Anatomy. I'm sure that radiology hours at National were definitely over 300 too.
The list I put up only hit on some of the classes, not all of them, and of course, some of them that are "left out" are the profession specific classes (surgery / spinal manipulation etc).

Also, as dnf mentioned, you learn much more in internship & your first year or two of practice than you did in college itself.



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limiman12
03-19-2011, 08:08 AM
true about the classroom hours. Our fourth year is Mostly clinic. I don't pretend to claim that our clinic time compares to MD residency. You guys are slave labor.....

Another note on what you said, we could not miss class. We had to have 90% attendance you repeated the class. A friend of mine learned that the hard way. he was sick, could only miss one more hour of a 2 credit hour class, came for the first hour, prof took attendence in the second hour (not the first) counted him absent for both and he had to drop back a semester because of "missing" an extra hour of Chiro Philosophy.....

Funny thing, when I graduated, I was open with patients that I "hopefully" was not as good of DC as the DC I will be in 10 or 20 years, but that they had to trust that as a young doc, I knew the current stuff, and was not going to take anything for granted.

Now as I get a little farther from being a "new" grad, I find myself selling experience a little more and have to trust that I will stay up on the current stuff......

I practiced the first 2+ years with a classmate close to our school and would frequently call former teachers, older docs etc, and take X-rays up to Dr. whitehead for him to take a look at. I would say that situation was very good for my growth as a doctor, and will also say that there are classmates I stayed away from when they were looking to finish their adjusting reqs..... That is one of the hard things about being a DC to be GOOD, you have to have the knowledge to know what to do, but there is definatly a physical skill/art involved with being able to do it.

sinner
03-19-2011, 09:07 PM
explain to me what medical kinesiolgy is?
Also how you can manipulate the cranium?

limiman12
03-20-2011, 09:25 AM
not sure what you are referring to in medical kinesiology. Kinesiology (study of human motion) is a common major for pre-chiro, pre PT or used as the major for people getting their Athletic trainer cert, or that are going to be personal trainers. their really is not a "pre-med or Pre-chiro" Major..... while at Kansas State I was a biology major with an. sci minor while a "pre-vet" student. when a switched to chiro tract I dropped the minor and was on the "pre-med" program with all the pre-med students and the pre-vet students (yeah changing from animal doc to people doc I dropped a minor.....


Adjusting the cranium, not anything like anyother adjustments. a wide variety of beliefs on it. I am a "conservative" on it I do think that some tremendous results happen with it. I am not "ceritfied" in cranial sacral technique, but have taken a couple seminars and spent many hours with a prof in school that really knew it. I use it on babies whose cranial plates are overlapping before they have fused. ( igot more interested in it when my daughters plates were not moving back right so we drove her two and ahalf hours one way three times to a classmate that does a lot of it, she helped my daughter but also encouraged me that I knew enough to help some people) it is more like holding pressure on the egdes and massaging them in the direction they need to move. During birth the plates over lap naturally(remember cone heads) sometimes they don't move back as well as they should and if they are slow getting back they can fused overlapped, unatractive for abald guy ;-), but if the skull is not shaped right it can effect the brain. I use it some at the base of the skull on adults, in theory it helps 'release" tension in the meniges (until recently I was a little skeptical on this, but their is a TINY tendon/ligament between a structure in the upper c-spine that connects to the out meninge that I believe has only recently been found, I know I only learned about it at a semian last summer....) to patients it feels like I am releaseing trigger points, I just know it works. Like i SAID, I am no expert by anymeans in it, but have gotten some pretty decent results.

A side note on Cranial sacral tech that falls into the "I don't know how it works but their has to be something to it"...... While I was reading A LOT about autism. In a study on autism, a DC that specializies in Craniosacral had noticed that she felt what she percieved as "restricted meninges" in a lot of her Austistic patients, so she with lots of other help she had kids come in lay on the table on their backs (no verbal or eye contact communication) and she was able to ID autistic kids at about 90% accuracy based on feeling the upper cervical region using Cranial sacral tech.......

They went looking for a reason, almost all Autistic kids (in case history) had had a fever spike in the early toddler age range (9-18 months I believe was the range) and it was thought that the high fever spike had casued either adhesions between meninges or shrunk/stunted the growth of at least one of the layers.....

probably more answer then what you wanted, in school I had a buddy that described essay answers on questions that you were sure how to answer or were difficult to directly answer that you just vomited out all the info that remotely pertained and hoped the teacher could sort it out. I tend to do that when explaining a technique that works I just can't quite get my head around how and why (accupunctue is another, I reffer out for it)

sinner
03-22-2011, 06:48 PM
I taught kines @ CSU for 17 years. Many DCs use " Medical Kines" to diagnosis all sorts of diseases and systems problems. As far as I am concerned they are QUACKS! Manual therapist clam that they can manipulate the skull. Again more crap.
I have patients that use DCs some good some bad. In Nevada where I did consult there were a number of DCs, Lawyers and police that were scamming the system in auto accidents claims. Here in Colorado where my son-in-law is an investigator for auto insurance accident fraud he DCs are high on the list of fraudulent claims.
They/your profession needs to clean up their act

dnf777
03-22-2011, 07:02 PM
A side note on Cranial sacral tech that falls into the "I don't know how it works but their has to be something to it"......

Wait a minute. The cranium (head) is at one end of the spine, and the sacrum is at the other. How do you manipulate both at the same time?

Is this like the "rectocephaly syndrome" that many politicians exhibit?

I'm not sure I buy this cranial plate massage stuff either. Even if you can move them, they will go right back as soon as pressure is released, unless you can brace or splint them in position. With the exception of craniosynostosis (premature fusion of the cranial sutures, limiting expansion and growth of the brain pan) billions of people do just fine without manipulation. And for craniosynostosis babies, surgery is their only chance at life or normalcy.