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Losthwy
03-27-2011, 11:51 PM
Our founding fathers founded this nation on Christian values. We have heard it repeated countless times. Is true or BS? You be the judge. Let's play a game. There will be a quote and guess who it is from.

1. Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.

2. The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.

3. The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep these shores from the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.

4. This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it.

5. I do not believe in the creed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of these Churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my part, I disbelieve them all.

Losthwy
03-27-2011, 11:54 PM
1. Thomas Jefferson
2. Benjamin Franklin
3. James Madison
4. John Adams
5. Thomas Paine

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society."
George Washington

Ken Bora
03-28-2011, 09:40 AM
Well first we need to determine who our founding fathers are? Those fellers who you list and are wonderful in their idea of this experiment of a republic they came up with? Or the very first Puritan settlers who were escaping religious persecution?
Jefferson penned his own bible. Franklin, wasn’t he a Unitarian Universalist? Basically, no matter what they called themselves or what cult they may have been in. They knew of Christianity. It was more in their practical mind than say for example Buddhism.
And seeing as that was the dominant value of the day, an argument could very well be made. Like it or not.


.

road kill
03-28-2011, 09:47 AM
I am not sure what your question is, but that is likely more on this end than yours.

But if you are asking the deeper question, were these men led by their Christian values, I would say yes.

As far as seperation of church & state, I beleive the premise was to keep the government OUT of the church.
It has since been twisted to mean keep the church out of government.
I think religious folks should be allowed to participate in government just as much as secular progressives.:D

I have been told that there is actually no where in the constitution that states "seperation of church & state."

stan b

Franco
03-28-2011, 09:48 AM
1. Thomas Jefferson
2. Benjamin Franklin
3. James Madison
4. John Adams
5. Thomas Paine




All Deist in belief. Remember that these highly educated men were a product of the Enlightenment. Though they were not as radical as those that subscribed to Enlightenment thought in Europe, where the society of the Illuminati was formed, they believed in the teachings of the Rabbi Jesus, they just didn't view him as a god.

We can still see the influences of thier beliefs in our one dollar bill. The words, "Noues Ordo Seclous" translates to "Secular New Order" and the symbol of the Pheonix rising from the ashes with "ignorant world". Or, the USA rising from an ignorant world.

Losthwy
03-28-2011, 11:30 AM
All Deist in belief. Remember that these highly educated men were a product of the Enlightenment.
That is how I see it as well. Religion is mention once in the constitution "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any office or public trust under the United States".
They were all very much aware of the religious persecution not only in Europe but here in the Colonies as well. Such as the Puritans who persecuted the Quakers in Mass or the Protestants who persecuted Catholics in Maryland. It is correct "separation of church and state" is not in the constitution nor in the first amendment either, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"... Though Thomas Jefferson did use the phrase in a letter when he was president. From their writings and the 1st amendment I think not only were they were wary of any undue influence of government into religion, but undue influence of religion into government.

Franco
03-28-2011, 11:40 AM
That is how I see it as well. Religion is mention once in the constitution "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any office or public trust under the United States".
They were all very much aware of the religious persecution not only in Europe but here in the Colonies as well. Such as the Puritans who persecuted the Quakers in Mass or the Protestants who persecuted Catholics in Maryland. It is correct "separation of church and state" is not in the constitution nor in the first amendment either, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"... Though Thomas Jefferson did use the phrase in a letter when he was president. From their writings and the 1st amendment I think not only were they were wary of any undue influence of government into religion, but undue influence of religion into government.

It is too bad that the Bible Thumpers have clipped the wings of the Pheonix rising;-)

Julie R.
03-28-2011, 12:42 PM
We can still see the influences of thier beliefs in our one dollar bill. The words, "Noues Ordo Seclous" translates to "Secular New Order" and the symbol of the Pheonix rising from the ashes with "ignorant world". Or, the USA rising from an ignorant world.

Hmmm. the USA rising from an ignorant world. The good old days. Too bad it's no longer rising, but sinking into ignorance now because of all this dumbing down to accomodate the lowest common denominator.

Losthwy
03-28-2011, 01:14 PM
"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
James Madison

From Religion of the American Enlightenment:
"Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian."
Ethan Allen

precisionlabradors
03-28-2011, 03:28 PM
Hmmm. the USA rising from an ignorant world. The good old days. Too bad it's no longer rising, but sinking into ignorance now because of all this dumbing down to accomodate the lowest common denominator.
.....which is often sold to the public as the "right thing to do" based on chrisitan principles.

cotts135
03-28-2011, 03:34 PM
I have heard Christian Values defined in many ways. Not sure I know what it means anymore. Any opinions?

zeus3925
03-29-2011, 09:09 AM
The Founding Fathers were driven mainly by the democratic philosophers of Age of Enlightenment -- John Locke and Jean Jacques Rousseau, among others. The Age of Enlightenment was not particularly kind toward organized religion. Remember that organized religion at the time held that the king was chosen by God to rule over his subjects and religious authority did what it could to supprees the "heresy" of government by the people.

Europe had just emerged from religious wars where the state and religion often worked in concert. The result devastation was most horrific. The Founding Fathers were most interested in ending the "Divine Rights of Kings" and the establishment of a state religion that could act in union with the state in reprising another religious war.

BrianW
03-29-2011, 09:33 AM
Well first we need to determine who our founding fathers are? Those fellers who you list and are wonderful in their idea of this experiment of a republic they came up with? Or the very first Puritan settlers who were escaping religious persecution?


http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
“[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.

“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

sinner
03-29-2011, 11:01 AM
Read "God is not Great"
Would be good for your balance!

road kill
03-29-2011, 11:14 AM
I think if one were to follow the 10 Commandments they would be in good shape.
They seem to be the basic principles of Christianity.
I am not claiming I or any church follow them without fail.

Just sayin'.........

RK

BrianW
03-29-2011, 11:41 AM
Read "God is not Great"
Would be good for your balance!

Is that in response to my post?

YardleyLabs
03-29-2011, 12:52 PM
I think if one were to follow the 10 Commandments they would be in good shape.
They seem to be the basic principles of Christianity.
I am not claiming I or any church follow them without fail.

Just sayin'.........

RK
Technically, they are the basic principles of Judaism, and have simply been carried forward by Christians (who sometimes seem to pick and choose the portions of the Old Testament that did not expire 2000 years ago ;-)). The first four (or five , depending on who does the counting) and actually stipulations regarding religious practice that have no real place in secular law. The fifth, honoring mom and dad, is nice, but once again hardly the basis of law. The last ones -- don't kill, don't screw around, don't lie, don't steal, and don't covet your neighbor's wife or property -- are pretty universal across all religions. In fact, all ten are common to Judaism, Islam and Christianity.

dnf777
03-29-2011, 01:22 PM
Technically, they are the basic principles of Judaism, and have simply been carried forward by Christians (who sometimes seem to pick and choose the portions of the Old Testament that did not expire 2000 years ago ;-))..

Jeff, is this what you're talking about??

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae306/dnf777/8-5-091.jpg

YardleyLabs
03-29-2011, 02:23 PM
Jeff, is this what you're talking about??

http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae306/dnf777/8-5-091.jpg
:D:D:D.............

sinner
03-29-2011, 09:37 PM
Technically, they are the basic principles of Judaism, and have simply been carried forward by Christians (who sometimes seem to pick and choose the portions of the Old Testament that did not expire 2000 years ago ;-)). The first four (or five , depending on who does the counting) and actually stipulations regarding religious practice that have no real place in secular law. The fifth, honoring mom and dad, is nice, but once again hardly the basis of law. The last ones -- don't kill, don't screw around, don't lie, don't steal, and don't covet your neighbor's wife or property -- are pretty universal across all religions. In fact, all ten are common to Judaism, Islam and Christianity.

Read the book!

BrianW
03-30-2011, 09:39 AM
Read the book!

Why -in your opinion?
Excerptsfrom the book - "And here is the point, about myself and my co-thinkers. Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason."
...
"We are not immune to the lure of wonder and mystery and awe: we have music and art and literature, and find that the serious ethical dilemmas are better handled by Shakespeare and Tolstoy and Schiller and Dostoyevsky and George Eliot than in the mythical morality tales of the holy books. Literature, not scripture, sustains the mind and—since there is no other metaphor—also the soul."

From the NY Times review - "Hitchens is an old-fashioned village atheist, standing in the square trying to pick arguments with the good citizens on their way to church. "

It seems to me that I can save myself a whole lot of time & reading and just listen to Mike Malloy for 5 minutes or so in the evening and be told how "mentally ill" I am for believing in "sky spooks" etc.

Actually though, I am reading (or I should say listening to) a good (imo) book about religion. "The Looming Tower - Al Qaeda and the Road to 9/11" by Lawrence Wright. A National Book Award finalist.
And then I've got "Lone Survivor" by Marcus Luttrell on tap.

sinner
03-30-2011, 05:40 PM
Is that in response to my post?

Yeah, have you read it?
A couple of you have.
Good for balance!

sinner
03-30-2011, 05:42 PM
Why -in your opinion?
Excerptsfrom the book - "And here is the point, about myself and my co-thinkers. Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason."
...
"We are not immune to the lure of wonder and mystery and awe: we have music and art and literature, and find that the serious ethical dilemmas are better handled by Shakespeare and Tolstoy and Schiller and Dostoyevsky and George Eliot than in the mythical morality tales of the holy books. Literature, not scripture, sustains the mind and—since there is no other metaphor—also the soul."

From the NY Times review - "Hitchens is an old-fashioned village atheist, standing in the square trying to pick arguments with the good citizens on their way to church. "

It seems to me that I can save myself a whole lot of time & reading and just listen to Mike Malloy for 5 minutes or so in the evening and be told how "mentally ill" I am for believing in "sky spooks" etc.

Actually though, I am reading (or I should say listening to) a good (imo) book about religion. "The Looming Tower - Al Qaeda and the Road to 9/11" by Lawrence Wright. A National Book Award finalist.
And then I've got "Lone Survivor" by Marcus Luttrell on tap.

Well at least you have read it or heard some of it.
My fish on the back of my car has legs on it (dirty sign in good old Colorado Springs)!

road kill
03-30-2011, 05:53 PM
Yeah, have you read it?
A couple of you have.
Good for balance!

Have you read the Bible??

VERY Good for balance!!!:D



RK

Losthwy
03-30-2011, 06:14 PM
Read the book!

Which book? The Old Testament? Great stories. Gets an R rating for violence. Especially the early chapters. The Jews roam around the desert wiping out tribe after tribe. Read the Federalist Papers as well.