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Gerry Clinchy
09-03-2011, 07:12 PM
Have a friend who has a kennel license here in PA. Just down the road from me. She raises Shelties and Japanese Chins.

The new dog law here in PA requires minimum cage size for a dog based on its length and height. Length is from nose tip to tail tip. Height includes the top of the ears. Based on these measurements, a certain # of square feet of space must be provided for the enclosure. Based on this new law (last year), she now has to provide a crate for her 15# Sheltie that is the size normally used for an Akita.

Can you imagine the size required for a Lab or Golden? Remember, you have to include the tail. Can you imagine the increased space needed for what may seem to be reasonably sized crates and kennels now.

Additionally, all crates and fencing must not have any visible rust. Chain link will usually have some rust after a period of time.

And raising puppies ... to meet the enclosure sizes, she pulled some old x-pens out of her garage & set them up. She was also told that if she wanted to put two of the Shelties in that pen it had to be large enough to meet the square footage requirements for the two dogs.

Her final conclusion is that she will sell off her Chins, so she can accommodate the Shelties.

Things are not much better in surrounding states. The puppy mills have been used as a weapon against hobby breeders as well. Time may come when pure-bred dogs are a lot more expensive than they are now.

charly_t
09-03-2011, 08:11 PM
Have a friend who has a kennel license here in PA. Just down the road from me. She raises Shelties and Japanese Chins.

The new dog law here in PA requires minimum cage size for a dog based on its length and height. Length is from nose tip to tail tip. Height includes the top of the ears. Based on these measurements, a certain # of square feet of space must be provided for the enclosure. Based on this new law (last year), she now has to provide a crate for her 15# Sheltie that is the size normally used for an Akita.

Can you imagine the size required for a Lab or Golden? Remember, you have to include the tail. Can you imagine the increased space needed for what may seem to be reasonably sized crates and kennels now.

Additionally, all crates and fencing must not have any visible rust. Chain link will usually have some rust after a period of time.

And raising puppies ... to meet the enclosure sizes, she pulled some old x-pens out of her garage & set them up. She was also told that if she wanted to put two of the Shelties in that pen it had to be large enough to meet the square footage requirements for the two dogs.

Her final conclusion is that she will sell off her Chins, so she can accommodate the Shelties.

Things are not much better in surrounding states. The puppy mills have been used as a weapon against hobby breeders as well. Time may come when pure-bred dogs are a lot more expensive than they are now.

Oklahoma just passed a set of rules for kennels that is putting a lot of very good dog breeders out of business. The breeders with very few dogs may fly under the radar which seems a little unfair. The good hunting dog kennels will suffer.

Gerry Clinchy
09-04-2011, 01:30 AM
There has been discussion on another forum I belong to about how hobby breeders may really need to align themselves with the better commercial breeders, because hobby breeders, alone, don't have great enough numbers to make an impression.

It is easy for the people who make the laws to be unaware of how purebred dog sports contribute to local economies like motels and restaurants. This was brought up WRT the AKC "Invitational" out in Long Beach, CA. They figured out that this event brought about $1 million into the local economy. Long Beach put in a very restrictive dog law, and AKC may change the venue as a result.

In Los Angeles, a breeder's license (required if you have any dogs over a certain age that are not neutered) is something like $200/year! It's pretty obvious that the people making the laws have no clue what they're doing.

Adoptable shelter dogs are actually in short supply, so that dogs are being "imported" from Mexico and other places. And these imports can bring disease with them as well. One problem is the fact that pit bull types are not easily adopted out, and they are making up a larger portion of the shelter dogs.

charly_t
09-04-2011, 02:47 AM
Yes the dogs brought in from other countries have brought in diseases. Rescues were not at one time required to even abide by the same laws ( rules ) that a USA breeder was subject to. The "Save A Sato" ( my spelling may be wrong ) was one such program. A lot of time the national humane organizations are behind a lot of the new laws. They do know what they are doing and their aim is to put breeders out of business. They do not want animals used by we humans. There used to be puppy mills that did need to be shut down. Most large scale breeders have been targeted in the last few years by some well meaning people who believe that all dogs should be in bed with a family member every night. The thing that really bothers me is the tactics used by many of the "do-gooders". Having had a small kennel and having had a USDA dog breeding license for a number of years I can tell you that some of those rules are just plain crazy. We will either see registered pure bred dogs getting very expensive in this country or we will see cheap ones brought in from other countries. Mexican dogs are being brought in at this time. Most are not brought in in a legal way. Many die and we breeders in the USA get blamed for a lot of these deaths. Unlicensed breeders get by without the usual program of vet care statement that licensed breeders need to update every year with their own vet.

I believe it was a large city in Kentucky who passed some crazy law a few years back.......it ruined a very large cluster of AKC shows in that city. AKC
dog shows are a money making thing for the cities where they are held.

The new rules that were proposed for OK this last year were going to have fines so large that most dog breeders could not afford them. The fines can be for such minor things that everyone can be fined for something. Then the huge license fees. I was no longer able to take care of my kennel after the cancer fight but if I had been these new laws would have put me out of business.

Vets are getting dumber all the time also. I have a friend who bred English Bulldogs which often need c-sections. Vets were putting off the c-sections for her dogs and when they finally listened to the lady and did the c-section all the puppies had already died. The older vets used to listen to the breeder but the young ones won't listen to us. I won't go into all of that but I have had that trouble sometimes also.

MO is fighting a new bill right now ( maybe more than one ). Breeders are selling out right and left in that state. We breeders have fought against
the bad bills in congress etc. for many years. They often get something passed and then it is changed after the fact. The hobby breeders better
get to writing those letters and calling the elected people who are supposed to represent them at all levels of government.

This is one of the things that is wrong with this country. Too many regulations on too many businesses. The worst thing is probably the fact that a lot of these laws ( rules ) are written up by people who know nothing about the business. One size does not fit all when laws are written for pointers and chihuahuas. I have never bred any other breed than chihuahuas and even though we have hunted in our family for many years and used dogs for those hunts most of the time I would not presume to tell a pointer breeder
how to breed his dogs. Just too many differences.

I did agree with most of what you have said. You made some good points.

limiman12
09-04-2011, 08:57 AM
This is one of the things that is wrong with this country. Too many regulations on too many businesses. The worst thing is probably the fact that a lot of these laws ( rules ) are written up by people who know nothing about the business.

this staement right here is true about a lot of things in our country. One of my favortie quotes is "rules are made for people with no common sense," I like to foollow that with "and usually made by people suffering the same affliction"

Are the cage laws just for boarding or do they include tansport as well? I mean if I drive through PA and get pulled over are they or could they get out the tape measure to measure my dog crate. Since a lot of times hotels are sticky about dogs in the room sometimes the dogs do stay in the vehicle overnight, that would make events in PA pretty tough, or dogs on a pro's truck, impossible. People don't understand that just because a dog is not treated/spoiled like their little fido does not mean it is abused, in fact many times our dogs with purpose and a "job" have a far better life then the dogs that are 25 pounds overweight and can't jump up on the bed anymore...

Gerry Clinchy
09-04-2011, 09:39 AM
Fritz, you are correct, someone travelling through PA might be affected by the law. This is also the problem with several other state laws.

Your observations are, of course, quite logical, but the people who craft these laws know nothing about their topic except what HSUS or PETA tell them. Those two groups have huge amounts of money to spend to lobby.

HSUS runs a disgusting ad with photos of severely abused cats and dogs, and then asks for $19/mo. to fight the abusers. How could anyone who does not know about the dog sports possibly not respond to these emotional ads?

I believe the concern with the "cluster" of shows that charly mentions was that attendees from other states feared that their dogs could be confiscated & neutered! The letter of the law would have allowed that.

If the letter of the law is not followed in an unbiased way, could that then lead to charges of discrimination, that might leave the law open to being rescinded?

Eric Johnson
09-04-2011, 11:29 AM
I believe the concern with the "cluster" of shows that charly mentions was that attendees from other states feared that their dogs could be confiscated & neutered! The letter of the law would have allowed that.



This occurred in Louisville which is the annual site of one of the larger show clusters in the country. The Louisville Kennel Club was very pro-active in fighting this local ordinance and filed suit against Metro-Louisville. The original suit got the law declared invalid because of some technicalities in the writing and passage. The city passed the same thing overcoming the technicalities and the suit proceeded. The KC lost on several points but did win a huge one. The law had provided for a seizure bond. If an animal were seized, the animal control folks would demand a cash bond or the owner would forfeit the animal. This was declared unconstitutional and is the basis for other suits around the country from time to time.

Two follow-on results of this 3 year fight...

1. The Metro-Louisville gov't has stopped enforcement of the law and may have even repealed it.

2. The Louisville KC is fractured and fragmented now. All the folks who led the fight against the ordinance were voted off the Board and new members were elected who sought a return to the non-political days of just holding shows.

Meanwhile, the HSUS VP for KY is still in office and has on at least one occasion found a Metro-Louisville legal staff member to promote the exact same ordinance as had been declared unconstitutional.

Eric

Gerry Clinchy
09-04-2011, 06:31 PM
Someone mentioned to me outside of this forum, and it bears repeating here: Responsible hobby breeders were taking very good care of their dogs, which were very valuable to them. The dogs need to be in very good condition to compete in any venue. This was being done long before anybody made it a law.

Dogs from responsible hobby breeders are not usually the root of the problem in shelter inmates. Yet, the regs that have been instituted do not use the common sense of including such breeders in formulating the regs!

As a result, a lot of the proposed regs mandate neutering by 4 mos of age unless the dog is competing. Obviously, those who made the regs have no clue that AKC won't even allow a dog to compete until it is 6 mos of age. And in agility not until 15 mos! (raised from 12 mos due to concern for young bodies & the demands of the sport). And would a 4 mo old pup be ready to run a Derby? Not to mention that studies indicate that neutering that young is not really a good thing for the long-term health of the dogs.

The net result is that those who purchase those expensive breeder licenses are again an example of the responsible people paying for the failings of those who are irresponsible. Does that sound rather familiar?

charly_t
09-05-2011, 12:02 AM
Someone mentioned to me outside of this forum, and it bears repeating here: Responsible hobby breeders were taking very good care of their dogs, which were very valuable to them. The dogs need to be in very good condition to compete in any venue. This was being done long before anybody made it a law.

Dogs from responsible hobby breeders are not usually the root of the problem in shelter inmates. Yet, the regs that have been instituted do not use the common sense of including such breeders in formulating the regs!

As a result, a lot of the proposed regs mandate neutering by 4 mos of age unless the dog is competing. Obviously, those who made the regs have no clue that AKC won't even allow a dog to compete until it is 6 mos of age. And in agility not until 15 mos! (raised from 12 mos due to concern for young bodies & the demands of the sport). And would a 4 mo old pup be ready to run a Derby? Not to mention that studies indicate that neutering that young is not really a good thing for the long-term health of the dogs.

The net result is that those who purchase those expensive breeder licenses are again an example of the responsible people paying for the failings of those who are irresponsible. Does that sound rather familiar?

Yep, very familiar.

I guess you could have called me a commercial breeder.......I certainly intended to sell mine and to me that is a commercial breeder. As I have stated before we were very carefull of the personalities of the dogs that we used for breeding. Chihuahuas are not all nasty little ankle bitters and I do not like that in a dog of any kind/breed. I am down to one male chi who has never been used for breeding. I so hate the thought of his good genes not being passed along but so far no one wants him that I would approve of. I am not offering him for sale.....his breeder and I will not put him up for sale. That may sound counter-productive to the breed but he is a very special dog. He does have some bad habits.........he climbs like a monkey for one thing. We have both been looking but have not found the correct home for him. We have both parted with dogs who were in the wrong place eventially. Anyhow
if someone starts controlling the breeding of our dogs or putting us out of business for minor things it will hurt the sport. Never mind that the bad breeders are still at it and in most cases no one is controlling them. Most
of the big commercial breeders do a good job of breeding because it is their livelyhood. Most people do not understand that. Reputation is very, very important in dog breeding as most of you will already know.

Gerry Clinchy
09-05-2011, 10:04 AM
Found out more about the PA dog law. Supposedly the size requirements are only for the "primary enclosure" of a dog. And the measurement of the dog should be from nose tip to tail BASE (not TIP).

For those travelling to events in PA, the term "permanent enclosure" might be subject to the size requirements for things like field "dog trucks"? Not entirely sure how the pro show handlers have things set up in their large motor homes.