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ppro
10-20-2011, 11:12 AM
I am watching TV and I keep seeing and hearing the rich need to pay their fair share. Could someone tell me what there fair share is? I hear what is NOT FAIR all the time. I hear that corporations don't pay their fair share, I hear millionaires and billionaires don't need that much money. How much is fair? Do not ask me do I think if it is fair now just answer the question if you have an opinion and are one of the people who agree the rich and corporations don"t pay their fair share.

huntinman
10-20-2011, 11:16 AM
I am watching TV and I keep seeing and hearing the rich need to pay their fair share. Could someone tell me what there fair share is? I hear what is NOT FAIR all the time. I hear that corporations don't pay their fair share, I hear millionaires and billionaires don't need that much money. How much is fair? Do not ask me do I think if it is fair now just answer the question if you have an opinion and are one of the people who agree the rich and corporations don"t pay their fair share.

All of it...:rolleyes:

BonMallari
10-20-2011, 11:19 AM
life isnt fair.. its the entitlement mentality that somehow the less fortunate somehow deserve part of those that either through ingenuity,good fortune or just plain dumb luck,struck it rich..its the share and share alike mentality

Uncle Bill
10-20-2011, 03:18 PM
You must understand that is only the 'PC' terminology for those SFN crowd wanting what their class envy instructors have inculcated in all their mentally challenged robots...like that batch of worthless human trash that is defacating on Wall Street and other major cities.

None of them have a clue what's "fair"...they are in the same maental stage as the garbage you see on main stream TV newscasts when they cover Greece. You think those idiots are seeking "fair"???

As they morph into European anarchists, and even the most American corporation or multi millionaire has finally shrugged like Atlas, and left them all to mingle in the muck and slop they have brought down on this nation, and they finally discover like Pogo..."we have met the enemy, and they is us", will they realize they've killed the Golden Goose, and sent Humpty Dumpty to his demise.

Then we can all sing "Halleliuah"...free at last...now ALL is fair!

UB

Buzz
10-20-2011, 03:28 PM
Someone has been reading way too much Ayn Rand...

ppro
10-20-2011, 06:50 PM
Buzz I expected an answer from you. I mean a real answer and not some quip. You have in the past railed on corporate greed and the rich getting away with taking the lion share of money leaving little for the 'average' man. Please give a meaningful answer to what is fair as I think you must have given this some thought.

road kill
10-20-2011, 07:03 PM
Buzz I expected an answer from you. I mean a real answer and not some quip. You have in the past railed on corporate greed and the rich getting away with taking the lion share of money leaving little for the 'average' man. Please give a meaningful answer to what is fair as I think you must have given this some thought.

You don't know Buzz.
Or any progressive for that matter.
This is who they are, this is what they do..............



RK

kjrice
10-20-2011, 08:04 PM
If they wanted to truly generate money, it would come in the form of closing tax code loopholes.

Buzz
10-21-2011, 08:00 AM
It doesn't matter what I think, I'm just a dumb know nothing liberal. I will say however that I think that the Republican approach to starving the beast and attempting to create a crisis in order to force spending cuts is backward and dangerous. I say raise everyone's taxes to the point where everything government wants to do is paid for and let everyone feel the pain required by those policies instead of putting it off and dumping it on future generations. Then maybe the people will rise up and force politicians to cut spending. But that will never happen. I laugh my arse off every time I hear a Republican say that families have to balance their budgets so the government should have to also. Good Lord, we live in society that has a deeply ingrained credit card mentality. How do you think the private sector debt burden got so out of hand? The easiest thing in the world is to cut taxes and borrow money to cover the shortfall. Until the day comes when no one will lend you anymore money...

Good grief, I've been giving money to The Concord Coalition for almost 20 years now. Kind of a dumb thing for a borrow and spend liberal to do, wouldn't you say? But then the people who know me personally really don't think I'm as liberal as you guys would say...

dixidawg
10-21-2011, 08:05 AM
If they wanted to truly generate money, it would come in the form of closing tax code loopholes.


Exactly what is a loophole? I hear we have tax loopholes and "gun show" loopholes, but I have yet to see one of these elusive critters. Can you define loophole?

road kill
10-21-2011, 08:14 AM
It doesn't matter what I think, I'm just a dumb know nothing liberal. I will say however that I think that the Republican approach to starving the beast and attempting to create a crisis in order to force spending cuts is backward and dangerous. I say raise everyone's taxes to the point where everything government wants to do is paid for and let everyone feel the pain required by those policies instead of putting it off and dumping it on future generations. Then maybe the people will rise up and force politicians to cut spending. But that will never happen. I laugh my arse off every time I hear a Republican say that families have to balance their budgets so the government should have to also. Good Lord, we live in society that has a deeply ingrained credit card mentality. How do you think the private sector debt burden got so out of hand? The easiest thing in the world is to cut taxes and borrow money to cover the shortfall. Until the day comes when no one will lend you anymore money...

Good grief, I've been giving money to The Concord Coalition for almost 20 years now. Kind of a dumb thing for a borrow and spend liberal to do, wouldn't you say? But then the people who know me personally really don't think I'm as liberal as you guys would say...

Buzz, I give you political crap (and I get some too), I would love to hunt up some birds with ya some day!

Wonder when there will be a duck tax or a pheasant tax.......oh....wait.....




RK

Quackwacker
10-21-2011, 08:18 AM
fair is when everyone pays something! Then you would have to pay federal tax on the rims, and blue toothes, and $200 shoes, etc. Thats fair!

Jason Glavich
10-21-2011, 09:21 AM
Exactly what is a loophole? I hear we have tax loopholes and "gun show" loopholes, but I have yet to see one of these elusive critters. Can you define loophole?

Just a small example, If you make billions lets say you should be in the highest tax bracket, but the current tax code only taxes them at 15% due to the way the pay out is generated such as


The top tax rate for dividends and capital gains is 15 percent. The top marginal tax rate for wages is 35 percent, though that is reserved for taxable income above $379,150.

Now this varies based on how people earn their money. Is this a loophole, sort of, but in reality it works as it was desgined to, but yes it allows the rich to pay less taxes, but on regualr income they still pay the same tax rates established and paid by everyone else, just these types of pay are taxed less.

Gun show loophole, one example is a private citizen selling a gun to a private citizen in a face to face transfer without a background check, most states allow this, so you can go to a gun show not as a dealer and sell a gun to someone else, it happens here all the time, usally because the private guy has a better gun at a better price then the dealer.

Again just my .02

luvmylabs23139
10-21-2011, 09:56 AM
. I laugh my arse off every time I hear a Republican say that families have to balance their budgets so the government should have to also. Good Lord, we live in society that has a deeply ingrained credit card mentality. How do you think the private sector debt burden got so out of hand? ..

Not everyone has or ever has had credit card debt. Some of us were brought up not to spend more than we make and that the only acceptable debt is a mortgage, which is no different than signing a lease on a rental.
There was a time, not really that long ago in the scheme of things where credit cards were not just handed out. Homes were earned. If you wanted to own a home, you saved for a 20% down payment, you gave up certain things to save that money. Now it as seen as a right. Tax laws have added to the problems whether by republicans or democrats. PMI used to be a "penalty" paid for not having that 20% down. The the law was changed and it became a write off. That only added to the problems.
Your buddies, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd created most of this mess.
Anyone who tells my husband and I that we should pay more taxes for working our butts off for a better life and achieving that goal can just go to H//L. Everything we have we worked hard for and we don't "owe" anything to anyone.
Hard work and success as a result of that hard work should not be penalized or taxed. If we did it anyone can by simply applying themselves towards their goals.

Gerry Clinchy
10-21-2011, 09:56 AM
Fair share? Just random thoughts:

If I earn $100,000/year, for income tax Fed. govt takes $35,000. State govt (PA) takes about $3000. Local govt takes $1000. That's working out to 39%. (no income gradations on state & local taxes in PA) Sales tax on everything but food & clothing. State also taxes interest and dividends at same rate as income. Very minimal deductions on state EIT; none on local EIT, but they don't tax interest & dividends.

Take out 7.25% for SS & Medicare, leaving around $54,000.

Is it "fair" that various governments get about 1/2 of everything an individual earns?

I used $100,000 since that's probably pretty much equal to $50,000 twenty years ago :-)

It's even a little bit worse when one factors in that some people earning $100K/year spend extra money to NOT use the public school system because it doesn't deliver a good product. So, they pay for it, and ALSO pay for a private school for their kids.

dixidawg
10-21-2011, 10:08 AM
Another example of a "loophole":

You are "rich" and own a house. You get to deduct interest and not pay taxes on that income.

I am "not rich" and rent. I can't deduct my rent and have to pay tax on that income.

Let's close that loophole? Or is it a loophole?


And the gun show loophole?

The law ALLOWS people to make a private transaction and buy a gun from one another. Why is that a "loophole"?

luvmylabs23139
10-21-2011, 10:08 AM
Fair share? Just random thoughts:


Take out 7.25% for SS & Medicare, leaving around $54,000.

.

Not picking on you but it is actually 7.65%.
6.2 is SS
1.45 is medicare.

Buzz
10-21-2011, 10:12 AM
crap, I deleted my post by mistake. Oh, nevermind...

Anyhow, if you file jointly on a "taxable income" of $100,000, your federal bill is about $18,000. Probably about $26-28 k throwing in SS and medicare. The gross on that taxable would likely be in the $120 k range...

luvmylabs23139
10-21-2011, 10:16 AM
crap, I deleted my post by mistake. Oh, nevermind...

Anyhow, if you file jointly on a "taxable income" of $100,000, your federal bill is about $18,000. Probably about $26-28 k throwing in SS and medicare. The gross on that taxable would likely be in the $120 k range...


No wonder my response with with tax calculations went bye bye!
GRRR.

Jason Glavich
10-21-2011, 10:18 AM
Fair share? Just random thoughts:

If I earn $100,000/year, for income tax Fed. govt takes $35,000. State govt (PA) takes about $3000. Local govt takes $1000. That's working out to 39%. (no income gradations on state & local taxes in PA) Sales tax on everything but food & clothing. State also taxes interest and dividends at same rate as income. Very minimal deductions on state EIT; none on local EIT, but they don't tax interest & dividends.

Take out 7.25% for SS & Medicare, leaving around $54,000.

Is it "fair" that various governments get about 1/2 of everything an individual earns?

I used $100,000 since that's probably pretty much equal to $50,000 twenty years ago :-)

It's even a little bit worse when one factors in that some people earning $100K/year spend extra money to NOT use the public school system because it doesn't deliver a good product. So, they pay for it, and ALSO pay for a private school for their kids.

Just trying to see where the fed took 35k in taxes on 100k, it would put you in the 28% brakcet which puts you progressively at a total of 21.6k in taxes if my math is correct. That is with the 2011 rates that I could find. SS cap is above that pay so no break there either.

I get what your saying though, after you add in SS etc you will be close to 35% gone, when a billionaire is only getting taxed at 15%.

If my math is wrong I apologize. I will double check with calculator later.

dixidawg
10-21-2011, 10:33 AM
The whole "billionaire taxed at 15%" I don't get. If you are saying the billionaire i taxed at 15% because it is dividend income?

Let's look at dividend income.

I made some money, paid taxes on it and managed to save enough AFTER TAXES to buy a share of Widget Company.

Let's say Widget Company has a good year and has a profit before taxes of $1.00/share.

Corporate tax rate of 35% kicks in.

That leaves $.65 profit.

Widget Co decided to pay that whole $.65 in dividends.

Now I as the shareholder (owner of Widget Co) receive that $.65 as income.

I pay 15% x $.65 = .0975.

I am left with $.05525 out of that $1.00 my Widget Company earned.

Total tax rate for that $1.00 earned is about 45%

Cowtown
10-21-2011, 10:35 AM
I think what is fair is the same tax rate for everyone...ie a flat tax.

What is more fair than equality across the board?

Why should one person be "penalized" more than the next? That's not fair.

Because I may make more than you doesn't mean I should be forced to give more away than you....nothing fair about that.

Gerry Clinchy
10-21-2011, 10:35 AM
Sorry about the error on the SS.

Buzz, did you figure in the state and local tax? For PA, you're talking about 4% additional (with no real deductions). In NJ, it is higher, and NJ & some other states, it is a graduated income tax.

Fed EIT allows you to deduct for state income taxes paid. But in all other cases you are taxed on gross ... and you never even get your hands on that "gross" since some other govt entity has already grabbed it.

Really makes a bit of a case for throwing out this complicated tax code and going to something much simpler.

While I'm not convinced that 999 is the answer, since I do believe that you really can't get much in tax from a 70 yr old living on $12,000 of SS today. One might be able to make a case for a graduated income tax (with no deductions), and a lower sales tax than 9%.

That said, there are some deductions that could easily get thrown out NOW ... mortgage deductions for a SECOND home, for example. A lot of those 534 people in DC make use of that one :-)

Maybe time to get rid of that "Alternative Minimum Tax" that only Einstein could understand, and which doesn't have any inflationary index. It was meant to capture taxes on high incomes that were using "loopholes" or "deductions" to avoid paying higher taxes. However, with no COLA index it is now kicking in for income levels for which it was never intended.

With a simple tax code, imagine how many IRS workers would be freed up to work on the bridges :-)

Jason Glavich
10-21-2011, 12:14 PM
I think what is fair is the same tax rate for everyone...ie a flat tax.

What is more fair than equality across the board?

Why should one person be "penalized" more than the next? That's not fair.

Because I may make more than you doesn't mean I should be forced to give more away than you....nothing fair about that.

Flat tax would be great, but then again the lowest paid people who currently pay no taxes would they cry foul that they have to pay, and the rich got a break.

ppro
10-21-2011, 01:17 PM
This is what I expected. No one coming up with what is fair. Everyone complains it is not fair but no one knows what fair is. How can you know it is not fair when you don't know what fair is. Maybe this is where the class envy group gets their claim because all that is heard is it is not fair but nothing to back it up. Try to think of how much everyone should pay as a percentage even if you believe in different taxes rates for different groups of people. I make about $150,000 and my wife $ 75,000. Have 5 kids. Was 1 of 7 kids raised in a 1200 sq ft house with 1 bathroom going to public school. I don't feel I should pay more because I got lucky. It took work for me and I am satisfied with my life. I believe my percentage should be the same as Warren Buffet or Bill Gates but also the same as the guy working at Mcdonalds(which I have also worked)

Uncle Bill
10-21-2011, 01:20 PM
Flat tax would be great, but then again the lowest paid people who currently pay no taxes would they cry foul that they have to pay, and the rich got a break.


Of course they would, and that's precisely why we don't have one. The Barney Frank cabal see a flat tax as 'completely' unfair for the poor, regardless of zero tax on food and clothing. After all, the poor are not used to paying ANY taxes, so whatever would cause them to "have some skin in this game", as the saying goes, would be anethema to the Democrats. They NEED those voters to be relying on them and their "tax the wealthy and share it with the SFN crowd", or we'll begin the rebellion, ie Greece.

This batch of human debris that is currently on Wall Street and other cities, would be the first to become anarchistic, if they had any onions, should a flat tax be enacted in this nation. Too bad, because the responsible producers in the nation that DO pay the freight, realize the tax code must be completely revamped for this nation to survive...so something similar to making ALL the people pay SOMETHING...be it a flat tax or a national consumption tax is bound to happen.

UB

Gerry Clinchy
10-22-2011, 09:30 AM
Should Jack Daniel's pay more in taxes just because they can?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/21/jack-daniels-faces-more-taxes-from-cash-strapped-hometown-in-tennessee/





It produces 23 million gallons of amber gold – about a billion dollars worth, every year.


But the company’s deep pockets make it a prime target for a local government that is strapped for revenue – and now a private citizen wants to slap the storied whiskey producer with a $10 tax on each and every barrel the distillery fills.

“We are entitled to more

from the only industry in the county – Jack Daniel’s distillery,” said Charles Rogers, a 75-year-old retiree and self-described “concerned citizen” of Moore County – home to Lynchburg and Jack Daniel’s.

Rogers wants the proposed tax to pay the bills for new schools, roads, bridges, even a new water treatment plant.

Rogers says Moore County is “entitled” to more money because Jack Daniel’s used bucolic images of small-town life in Lynchburg to sell its product. And as Norman Rockwell made a living off of his iconic images of Americana, so too should Lynchburg, according to Rogers. (Maybe the company should just stop doing that?)







In the same way a film company would pay ‘usage’ fees for a location, Rogers believes Jack Daniel’s should too. It’s a way, he says, of giving back to the community.
That idea infuriates Jack Daniel’s management. The distillery is Moore County’s largest employer. It accounts for a third of its tax base. And already, nearly 60 percent of the price of a bottle of Jack Daniel’s is in some form of tax. General Manager Tommy Beam says where does it stop?

“It’s a killer because it ups our costs. We’re competing in a global marketplace,” Beam said.





The tax would add about 3.4 cents to the price of a bottle of JD. While that doesn’t seem like much on the surface, considering the distillery sells more than 100 million bottles of whiskey every year, it quickly adds up to about $4 million a year. That’s a million dollars more than the entire county budget. And a cost, says Beam, that could affect the company’s growth.




“We have been able to hire 25 or 30 people in the last four or five months. And if our costs go up $4 or $5 million dollars, that’s probably going to make us a little less competitive. So, we might not grow as much,” Beam said.


That argument rings hollow for Rogers. He figures the company could easily tack a nickel on to the price of a bottle, recover the tax and make a little money in the process. (Hmm ... wonder how many companies Rogers runs? or has run?)

And there’s another thing that really bugs Rogers. The Jack Daniel’s distillery attracts tourists. Lots of them. About a quarter of a million every year. More than 20,000 are expected this weekend alone for the Jack Daniel’s World Championship Invitational Barbecue Competition.




“We get 25, 30,000 people coming in here, we can’t even move around,” Rogers said. “There’s no place to park. Traffic is backed up sometimes a mile or two up the road.” He told the story of a pensioner who couldn’t find a place to park at the courthouse. She left her car in
the middle of the road, saying ‘Maybe the sheriff can find a place to park it’. (Would be cheaper for JD to just build a parking lot for the tourists? And do some road improvements. Better than letting the govt spend the $ for what IT thinks is needed, which evidently encompasses a lot more stuff than just parking spaces.)








But Beam thinks the idea of taxing someone just because they’re successful is fundamentally unfair.






“That’s not free enterprise and that’s not what this country was built on,” he said. “I saw a quote the other day that said that a person used to look at a successful person and say now, what do I have to do to become like that? Whereas now, they might look at him and say, what can I do to get what they’ve got.”







SsItnote that there is no mention that JD is exploiting its employees to be successful. Would seem that maybe folks in Lynchburg have a higher standard of living than some other places in TN. Seems reasonable that those tourists bring millions of dollars to spend at other local businesses as well. And Mr. Rogers is worried about the parking?

charly_t
10-22-2011, 10:03 AM
Aahhh, yes.........Robin Hood rides again.

WRL
10-22-2011, 10:27 AM
Has anyone every thought of a "flat tax" with an exemption limit? I've never seen anything ever in the news.

So say someone proposed a flat tax of 15 % with a 50k exemption FOR EVERYONE. Meaning, for the first 50k, you pay nothing, everything over that is taxed at 15%. (just making those numbers up for example).

Would not a system such as that work pretty darn well without any loopholes?

WRL

Bally's Gun Dogs
10-22-2011, 11:08 AM
I was always told as a kid "Fair is something you go to in the summer"

Unfortunately a lot of things in life are not Fair.

Sure I would like to pay less taxes as would the next person, but its not likely to happen anytime soon.

charly_t
10-22-2011, 11:35 AM
What's fair...........this pretty well sums up the two parties here in the good old USA. ( Taken from the book by David Marin........"This Is Us: The New All-American Family" ). ......"trying to figure out if he'd become a Republican - 'that's my toy !' - or a Democrat - 'Here, Billy, you can have Tom's toy'. "

BonMallari
10-22-2011, 12:00 PM
I was watching the news piece about how the local township where Jack Daniels whiskey is produced wants to increase the taxes the company pays and the CEO put it this way

"...years ago,people would look at a successful company and try to learn from their success....now people look at a successful company and think how they can take a bigger portion from that company..."

Gerry Clinchy
10-22-2011, 02:05 PM
Buzz joked about another poster (don't even remember who) "reading too much Ayn Rand" ... but this sure does give one reason to think. Maybe some other town will get the govt to rule that JD has to give their "recipe" to some other company so that they could also benefit from the wealth JD brings to Lynchburg?

JD is not exactly an essential nutrient for most people :-) ... but if 60% of the price of the item is for taxes, I do wonder how many other items we buy are pumped up by "hidden" taxes.

Mr. Rogers in the article may smile at getting money from JD, but if he learned that corporate taxes & regulations comprised 60% of his bread, gasoline, clothing or medicine, it might get his attention.

Had a friend who worked for one of the pharma companies several years ago. He said that when they sent the paperwork on a new drug to FDA, it was packed on a pallet! Certainly, we want safe drugs, but even with all this paperwork, some drugs turn out not to be so. In fact, the extensive regulation may encourage companies to cut corners, when something more reasonable might work much better.

Much the same story from another friend who worked in the DC area for a company that did a lot of govt contracts. I have to believe that the manpower needed for all the red tape adds to the cost the govt pays ... and, thus, the taxpayer pays.

Uncle Bill
10-22-2011, 02:32 PM
Rogers is another of the OWS crowd that didn't make the trip to New York...part of the SFN crowd that would crap in their own mess kit in a class envy effort to beat up the successful that left them behind because they were too damned lazy to keep up.

Rogers is the epitome of the 'fools' mentioned by this unknown author:

The danger to America is not Barack Obama, but the citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him with the presidency.

It will be easier to limit and undo the follies of an Obama presidency, than to restore the necessary common sense and good judgment to an electorate willing to have such a man for their president.

The problem is much deeper and far more serious than Mr. Obama, who is a mere symptom of what ails us.

Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince.

The republic can survive a Barack Obama. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those that made him their President.

The SFN crowd that now has surpassed the tax-paying crowd, will, if successful in the upcoming election, be impossible to remove from power. They will have discovered the great fault of Democracy...the ability to vote oneself 'something for nothing'. Then we will have reached the status of Greece, and the OWS groupies will be the first to rebel, and anarchy will result, like in Europe. Socialism will morph into Fascism. What fun.

UB

charly_t
10-22-2011, 04:35 PM
.................................................. ..

Much the same story from another friend who worked in the DC area for a company that did a lot of govt contracts. I have to believe that the manpower needed for all the red tape adds to the cost the govt pays ... and, thus, the taxpayer pays.

An office worker in a doctor's office once told me the government paper work took all of one lady's time ( who worked in their office ). She further stated that the way they were required to fill out the government paper work changed all the time and they had to send someone to the classes for that "little" job canstantly. If they did not have it correctly done they did not get their money and often times the time frame ran out for filing it. Then they got nothing. Now you know why the costs have gone up for a doctor's time. I am old enough to remember what it was like before the government passed the first medicare "stuff". I'm also old enough to remember how it was before some crackpot sued the doc for their own hangnail problems. And some crooked attorney got most of a huge lawsuit for same.

subroc
10-23-2011, 07:37 AM
I expect the left believes this:

tax the rich, feed the poor, till there are no rich no more...

Gerry Clinchy
10-23-2011, 08:43 AM
I expect the left believes this:

tax the rich, feed the poor, till there are no rich no more...

History would indicate that in societies that use this MO, there are always still rich people ... but they are the bureaucrats, not those who are capable of producing wealth.