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Buzz
11-03-2011, 11:53 AM
There are basically two schools of thought on economic theory, that taught at the freshwater schools and that taught at saltwater schools. Over the last 30 years, the freshwater line of thinking have dominated the hearts and minds of Washington DC. It is known as "trickle down economics."

Below is a chart that shows how the share of national income has shifted. The top 1% had increased their share of the national income by close to 10%. The bottom 80% have decreased their share by close to 10%. The 81st to the 99th percent have seen their share of the national income pretty much flat line. Keep in mind that this top quintile excluding the top 1% are generally well educated or college educated people who work in the knowledge based segment of our economy.

So I ask, is it trickle up, or is it trickle down?

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/11/03/opinion/110311krugman2/110311krugman2-blog480.jpg

gman0046
11-03-2011, 01:08 PM
The income share has shifted by those who have earned it. Not by the slugs on welfare which is the way of the Democratic Party. Or do you advocate income redistribution like Obongolo? Why don't you join the Occupy Wall Street Flea Baggers? This shows your Detroit upbringing.

Buzz
11-03-2011, 01:16 PM
Pretty much the reaction I expected.

zeus3925
11-03-2011, 01:27 PM
This fron the AP :

WASHINGTON — The ranks of America's poorest poor have climbed to a record high — 1 in 15 people — spread widely across metropolitan areas as the housing bust pushed many inner-city poor into suburbs and other outlying places and shriveled jobs and income.

New census data paint a stark portrait of the nation's haves and have-nots at a time when unemployment remains persistently high. It comes a week before the government releases first-ever economic data that will show more Hispanics, elderly and working-age poor have fallen into poverty.

In all, the numbers underscore the breadth and scope by which the downturn has reached further into mainstream America.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45145370/ns/us_news-life/

BonMallari
11-03-2011, 01:44 PM
I was going to stay off this thread because it raises my blood pressure but here goes:

Name me ONE country where trickle up economics has worked...

You cant and here is why;

if you give the lower and even middle class money what do they do with it..they spend it on worthless crap..PRIME example, look at when all the FEMA debit cards were distributed to the affected residents of Katrina, what did they do with the funds...they went to wal mart and bought TV's and they went to strip joints, or they traded them for lesser cash value so they could go buy their drugs

the lower and even the middle class has shown they cant be trusted with a windfall of cash, its one of the reasons they are still in the rut they are in...I know because I live it every single day..you cant keep throwing money at a problem or a class of people and think they will figure it out...lets be real and call it what it is..

its the white mans guilt...somewhere back in the 60's, rich guys like LBJ thought that if they gave the minorities of the day a hand that they could elevate themselves, and everyone would get that warm fuzzy feeling, thinking that they had helped their fellow man..Did it work ? for a time being it did, until the lower class figured out that if they screamed out loud enough that they could get even more without raising a finger, it has perpetuated itself into the entitlement mentality we see today...

Look at all the grants in aid and other programs that are available at colleges and universities, do you know that most go unclaimed, the reason being is that the people that could actually use them cant qualify for them, because they neither qualify as a minority or because their parents make just enough money to not qualify but not enough to afford to send their kids to that university..I speak from experience on that subject..

Trickle up economics does not work in a capitalistic free market economy, never has and never will...what stimulus package has ever worked ? I hear it from fellow co workers all the time,"if i only had more money, I could do ______"

Rant over...BP meds kicking in

FOM
11-03-2011, 01:46 PM
There are basically two schools of thought on economic theory, that taught at the freshwater schools and that taught at saltwater schools. Over the last 30 years, the freshwater line of thinking have dominated the hearts and minds of Washington DC. It is known as "trickle down economics."

Below is a chart that shows how the share of national income has shifted. The top 1% had increased their share of the national income by close to 10%. The bottom 80% have decreased their share by close to 10%. The 81st to the 99th percent have seen their share of the national income pretty much flat line. Keep in mind that this top quintile excluding the top 1% are generally well educated or college educated people who work in the knowledge based segment of our economy.

So I ask, is it trickle up, or is it trickle down?



I just want to make a comment, I'm in that 1% I do believe - I make very good money, I'm highly educated (even though that can be questioned cause I run FTs), I make a killer paycheck, but I've earned it. I worked through college, I've flipped burgers and pizzas to make ends meet, I've eaten my share of Romen noodles for lunch and dinner, nothing was given to me, I didn't get my first vehicle until I was a Junior in college, I didn't have any credit cards until I was out of college, I did not buy a house until I could afford it, I lived within my means...it gets my goat when I'm made to feel bad because I am successful...my sister is a classic example, she could of had everything given to her by my parents, but she chose poorly and now she works an average job with no future, she looks at me like I'm the scum of the Earth because I own a house, a car and have a decent job...well if she wanted what I have then she should of worked as hard as I have...nothing was given to me and I don't expect it to and I know if I were to loose the job I have now I wouldn't blame someone else and I would be apply for what ever job was out there, I would change my spending habits and I would make do with what was before me...as I tell my sister "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful." If you don't like what life has dealt you then get off your arse and make a change, don't blame me because you are lazy....there are jobs out there, they may not be what you want, but there is nothing wrong with doing work below your means!

Sorry, but I hate being told I'm wrong because I make a good living...I work hard so I can play hard and when I freaking retire I plan to retire and I have no plans to depend on Social Security either...

I'm done...back to work.

charly_t
11-03-2011, 02:08 PM
I was going to stay off this thread because it raises my blood pressure but here goes:

Name me ONE country where trickle up economics has worked...

You cant and here is why;

if you give the lower and even middle class money what do they do with it..they spend it on worthless crap..PRIME example, look at when all the FEMA debit cards were distributed to the affected residents of Katrina, what did they do with the funds...they went to wal mart and bought TV's and they went to strip joints, or they traded them for lesser cash value so they could go buy their drugs

the lower and even the middle class has shown they cant be trusted with a windfall of cash, its one of the reasons they are still in the rut they are in...I know because I live it every single day..you cant keep throwing money at a problem or a class of people and think they will figure it out...lets be real and call it what it is..

its the white mans guilt...somewhere back in the 60's, rich guys like LBJ thought that if they gave the minorities of the day a hand that they could elevate themselves, and everyone would get that warm fuzzy feeling, thinking that they had helped their fellow man..Did it work ? for a time being it did, until the lower class figured out that if they screamed out loud enough that they could get even more without raising a finger, it has perpetuated itself into the entitlement mentality we see today...

Look at all the grants in aid and other programs that are available at colleges and universities, do you know that most go unclaimed, the reason being is that the people that could actually use them cant qualify for them, because they neither qualify as a minority or because their parents make just enough money to not qualify but not enough to afford to send their kids to that university..I speak from experience on that subject..

Trickle up economics does not work in a capitalistic free market economy, never has and never will...what stimulus package has ever worked ? I hear it from fellow co workers all the time,"if i only had more money, I could do ______"

Rant over...BP meds kicking in

Good post.
Yep..........bottom line.....in most cases people don't appreciate stuff if they didn't earn it themselves.

Jim Danis
11-03-2011, 02:26 PM
I just want to make a comment, I'm in that 1% I do believe - I make very good money, I'm highly educated (even though that can be questioned cause I run FTs), I make a killer paycheck, but I've earned it. I worked through college, I've flipped burgers and pizzas to make ends meet, I've eaten my share of Romen noodles for lunch and dinner, nothing was given to me, I didn't get my first vehicle until I was a Junior in college, I didn't have any credit cards until I was out of college, I did not buy a house until I could afford it, I lived within my means...it gets my goat when I'm made to feel bad because I am successful...my sister is a classic example, she could of had everything given to her by my parents, but she chose poorly and now she works an average job with no future, she looks at me like I'm the scum of the Earth because I own a house, a car and have a decent job...well if she wanted what I have then she should of worked as hard as I have...nothing was given to me and I don't expect it to and I know if I were to loose the job I have now I wouldn't blame someone else and I would be apply for what ever job was out there, I would change my spending habits and I would make do with what was before me...as I tell my sister "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful." If you don't like what life has dealt you then get off your arse and make a change, don't blame me because you are lazy....there are jobs out there, they may not be what you want, but there is nothing wrong with doing work below your means!

Sorry, but I hate being told I'm wrong because I make a good living...I work hard so I can play hard and when I freaking retire I plan to retire and I have no plans to depend on Social Security either...

I'm done...back to work.

Same situation for me. I paid my way through college and grad school. Part of it was through the use of my GI Bill and the rest was working 2 jobs most of the time. I'm self employed and do fairly well. The main thing this country has lost, and I see this in many applicants when we are trying to fill a position, is a good old fashioned work ethic. There is too much of an entitlement attitude in this country. There is an old saying that I definitley believe in "Nothing earned is nothing gained"!

The poor will not create jobs with the monies they receive. The wealthy will. A big reason for the increase in the income gap is that the socalled 1% knows what it means to work hard for a living and they will do what it takes to create additional income. The lower and lower-middle class has become too dependent upon welfare in various forms. Trickle Up economics has never and will never work.

Raymond Little
11-03-2011, 02:33 PM
I just want to make a comment, I'm in that 1% I do believe - I make very good money, I'm highly educated (even though that can be questioned cause I run FTs), I make a killer paycheck, but I've earned it. I worked through college, I've flipped burgers and pizzas to make ends meet, I've eaten my share of Romen noodles for lunch and dinner, nothing was given to me, I didn't get my first vehicle until I was a Junior in college, I didn't have any credit cards until I was out of college, I did not buy a house until I could afford it, I lived within my means...it gets my goat when I'm made to feel bad because I am successful...my sister is a classic example, she could of had everything given to her by my parents, but she chose poorly and now she works an average job with no future, she looks at me like I'm the scum of the Earth because I own a house, a car and have a decent job...well if she wanted what I have then she should of worked as hard as I have...nothing was given to me and I don't expect it to and I know if I were to loose the job I have now I wouldn't blame someone else and I would be apply for what ever job was out there, I would change my spending habits and I would make do with what was before me...as I tell my sister "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful." If you don't like what life has dealt you then get off your arse and make a change, don't blame me because you are lazy....there are jobs out there, they may not be what you want, but there is nothing wrong with doing work below your means!

Sorry, but I hate being told I'm wrong because I make a good living...I work hard so I can play hard and when I freaking retire I plan to retire and I have no plans to depend on Social Security either...

I'm done...back to work.

Thanks for coming over you 1%'er:D

Jason Glavich
11-03-2011, 03:10 PM
I was going to stay off this thread because it raises my blood pressure but here goes:

Name me ONE country where trickle up economics has worked...

You cant and here is why;

if you give the lower and even middle class money what do they do with it..they spend it on worthless crap..PRIME example, look at when all the FEMA debit cards were distributed to the affected residents of Katrina, what did they do with the funds...they went to wal mart and bought TV's and they went to strip joints, or they traded them for lesser cash value so they could go buy their drugs

the lower and even the middle class has shown they cant be trusted with a windfall of cash, its one of the reasons they are still in the rut they are in...I know because I live it every single day..you cant keep throwing money at a problem or a class of people and think they will figure it out...lets be real and call it what it is..

its the white mans guilt...somewhere back in the 60's, rich guys like LBJ thought that if they gave the minorities of the day a hand that they could elevate themselves, and everyone would get that warm fuzzy feeling, thinking that they had helped their fellow man..Did it work ? for a time being it did, until the lower class figured out that if they screamed out loud enough that they could get even more without raising a finger, it has perpetuated itself into the entitlement mentality we see today...

Look at all the grants in aid and other programs that are available at colleges and universities, do you know that most go unclaimed, the reason being is that the people that could actually use them cant qualify for them, because they neither qualify as a minority or because their parents make just enough money to not qualify but not enough to afford to send their kids to that university..I speak from experience on that subject..

Trickle up economics does not work in a capitalistic free market economy, never has and never will...what stimulus package has ever worked ? I hear it from fellow co workers all the time,"if i only had more money, I could do ______"

Rant over...BP meds kicking in

This can be shown by looking at most people who win the lottery and say it was a curse. Got millions one day and broke the next.


I just want to make a comment, I'm in that 1% I do believe - I make very good money, I'm highly educated (even though that can be questioned cause I run FTs), I make a killer paycheck, but I've earned it. I worked through college, I've flipped burgers and pizzas to make ends meet, I've eaten my share of Romen noodles for lunch and dinner, nothing was given to me, I didn't get my first vehicle until I was a Junior in college, I didn't have any credit cards until I was out of college, I did not buy a house until I could afford it, I lived within my means...it gets my goat when I'm made to feel bad because I am successful...my sister is a classic example, she could of had everything given to her by my parents, but she chose poorly and now she works an average job with no future, she looks at me like I'm the scum of the Earth because I own a house, a car and have a decent job...well if she wanted what I have then she should of worked as hard as I have...nothing was given to me and I don't expect it to and I know if I were to loose the job I have now I wouldn't blame someone else and I would be apply for what ever job was out there, I would change my spending habits and I would make do with what was before me...as I tell my sister "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful." If you don't like what life has dealt you then get off your arse and make a change, don't blame me because you are lazy....there are jobs out there, they may not be what you want, but there is nothing wrong with doing work below your means!

Sorry, but I hate being told I'm wrong because I make a good living...I work hard so I can play hard and when I freaking retire I plan to retire and I have no plans to depend on Social Security either...

I'm done...back to work.

I have friends who are in the same boat, they scream the loudest that their student loan debt should be forgiven, but are against anyone else getting bailed out. If people cannot read the terms of a contract they probabaly should not be taking the loan. The world still needs burger flippers and laborers. I do very well for myself, used TA while in the corps to get a Associates degree and am working on my BS using my GI bill and my work paid tuition. I won the lottery and am looked at like an idiot because I did not pay off my house and Truck(lemon claim in process). The same people don't understand how much you pay in taxes when you pay in the 33-35% bracket. I live well within my means, sure I want a new boat, and new house, and all sorts of fancy stuff, but I do not buy it! I know what i can afford and I know I am not going to depend on SS when I am older.

I do not see anyone as a have or have not, I see the do and do not. I am proud to say that if you looked at statistics with my background I am an outlier for sure. You know the ones that say if you parents had this level of education or did this job or had run ins with the law you will turn out to be this type of person. It is all BS, we all make our own choices. And some day people will start to realize the only person looking out for you is YOU!

I grew up in a small town, with good values and a sense of pride. I will make my life whatever I want it to be. The 99% or 1% all have that same trait in common they made their own choices. Some just made better ones. Like a degree in Business or a degree in foregin film studies with a minor in basketweaving(much less lucrative than underwater basketweaving)

Franco
11-03-2011, 03:19 PM
No doubt we have grown in terms of more poor folks. Just look at the mass migration to the USA over that period(40 years) by both legal and illegal migrants.

Add the fact that because of our government's policy of entitlements, some of the poor would rather collect handouts than work. We grown the entitlement class by leaps and bounds.

A bigger Nanny State then what we already have will do this country in.

Buzz
11-03-2011, 03:38 PM
I was just kinda asking if trickle down economics was appropriately named or not. Didn't mean to jam a stick into a bee's nest. My Detroit upbringing aside, I'm not sure where everyone thinks I stand on the economic ladder. I can assure you that you probably can't afford to train and run a field trial dog or two on what's trickling down...

Jason Glavich
11-03-2011, 03:47 PM
I was just kinda asking if trickle down economics was appropriately named or not. Didn't mean to jam a stick into a bee's nest. My Detroit upbringing aside, I'm not sure where everyone thinks I stand on the economic ladder. I can assure you that you probably can't afford to train and run a field trial dog or two on what's trickling down...

That is true, but it depends on what kind of truck and topper you have really, is it an ainley with 6 dogs or my craigslist special for 200 that is a tad small for my dogs...

trickle up poverty works best I think.

Buzz
11-03-2011, 03:50 PM
That is true, but it depends on what kind of truck and topper you have really, is it an ainley with 6 dogs or my craigslist special for 200 that is a tad small for my dogs...

trickle up poverty works best I think.

I'm mounting a stainless 5 dog on the truck in the next week or two. Guess I fall just a dog short! :-)

Jason Glavich
11-03-2011, 04:02 PM
I'm mounting a stainless 5 dog on the truck in the next week or two. Guess I fall just a dog short! :-)

Yup, but you may qualify for a new upgrade from the gov just ask. It is like welfare but for people who want more dogs and bigger dog boxes. But you may have to pee in a cup to get it in a few states. It is called Wuffare!

gman0046
11-03-2011, 05:20 PM
Buzz just by your comments you can tell your from a place like Detroit and a true Democrat. I'm sure the Brookings folks are glad you relocated to their fine state.

caryalsobrook
11-03-2011, 06:33 PM
There are basically two schools of thought on economic theory, that taught at the freshwater schools and that taught at saltwater schools. Over the last 30 years, the freshwater line of thinking have dominated the hearts and minds of Washington DC. It is known as "trickle down economics."

Below is a chart that shows how the share of national income has shifted. The top 1% had increased their share of the national income by close to 10%. The bottom 80% have decreased their share by close to 10%. The 81st to the 99th percent have seen their share of the national income pretty much flat line. Keep in mind that this top quintile excluding the top 1% are generally well educated or college educated people who work in the knowledge based segment of our economy.

So I ask, is it trickle up, or is it trickle down?

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/11/03/opinion/110311krugman2/110311krugman2-blog480.jpg
Did it ever dawn on you that the more the government attempts income redistribution the greater the disparity of incomes. Have you ever thought that the more one becomes dependent on the government, the more control the government has on the individual?

Do you think Johnson's greeat society program which was supposed to eliminate poverty may well increased poverty and made those more dependent and controled by the Government???

JDogger
11-03-2011, 07:33 PM
Buzz just by your comments I can tell you are
from a place like Detroit and a true Democrat. I'm sure the Brookings folks are glad you relocated to their fine state.

gman, did you just figure it out all on your own that what people post and comment on here on PP, might just reflect what they feel and believe?

Unbelivable regards, :rolleyes: JD

Buzz
11-04-2011, 07:59 AM
Buzz just by your comments you can tell your from a place like Detroit and a true Democrat. I'm sure the Brookings folks are glad you relocated to their fine state.

What do you know about Brookings, or the people in Brookings?

gman0046
11-04-2011, 08:21 AM
Buzz, its already been posted on here by South Dakotans that they don't take kindly to immigrants such as yourself.

Gerry Clinchy
11-04-2011, 10:33 AM
As was mentioned, lottery winners are a perfect example of how unearned money, without the acumen to use it well, is gone quickly, and the individual's position in life returns to its previous status.

A couple of years ago I rented an townehome to a young, unmarried couple who had come into a lump sum of cash of about $80,000 and the young woman had a life annuity of $1100/mo. They had an adorable 2-yr old daughter. The brand new furniture in the home was available for sale at 1/3 its new cost, and I encouraged them to buy it because they were planning on purchasing new furntiture retail (at much more $). They did do that. Their car broke down just before the rental started, and they went out and bought a late-model, used Escalade. Since neither of them had a job at the time, they may have paid cash for it. Don't know for sure.

During the year the male partner did find a job around $10/hour. By the end of the year, the lump sum of money had run out. Toward the end of that year, the male partner moved in with another woman, and the female partner was due to move in with her parents. The near-new clothes washer had been ruined by ignoring running it with unbalanced loads once too often.

I could see the handwwriting on the wall at the beginning. Being a grandmother, I gently suggested that they might want to at least put the lump sum in CDs for higher return, since it was all in a local savings account.

If you earn $20K/year, $80K seems like a limitless amount ... until it's dribbled away. When you earn $100K/year, $1 million seems limitless.

I don't think we should ignore, either, that people can be pushed below the poverty line by the increasing cost of living. Remembering that the COL index does NOT include the cost of food and energy! Then consider how many more regulations have been put in place since 1979 that influence those two MAJOR and NON-DISCRETIONARY items in the budget, where it impacts the lowest end of the income ranges the most.

Buzz
11-04-2011, 11:32 AM
That is an interesting story. But it doesn't really address the issue of increasing income disparity over the last 30 years and the possible government policies that may have contributed to it. I wasn't suggesting that it's time to start confiscating wealth and redistributing it.

I can't for the life me understand how my concern about this growing disparity means that I'm some kind of crazy liberal that hates the 1% and wants to take their money away. To be honest, I was kind of shocked at the responses I got. It seems to me that regardless of what rung on the economic ladder you're standing on, what that chart shows should concern you about the future of the country that I think we all love...

caryalsobrook
11-04-2011, 12:09 PM
That is an interesting story. But it doesn't really address the issue of increasing income disparity over the last 30 years and the possible government policies that may have contributed to it. I wasn't suggesting that it's time to start confiscating wealth and redistributing it.

I can't for the life me understand how my concern about this growing disparity means that I'm some kind of crazy liberal that hates the 1% and wants to take their money away. To be honest, I was kind of shocked at the responses I got. It seems to me that regardless of what rung on the economic ladder you're standing on, what that chart shows should concern you about the future of the country that I think we all love...

You are not the only one who has concern about the growing disparity of incomes. Start confiscating wealth and redistributing it?? Look again, the gov. IS ALREADY CONFISCATING WEALTH AND REDISTRIBUTING IT! All you have to look at is where the gov. spends the money.

I have asked you many questions that you chose not to answer but I will try two more.

1. You tell me what you think caused the income disparity and the solution. My guess is if you choose to answer is more gov. regulation and income redistribution.

2. You have stated that you are in favor of the estate tax. If I am wrong then correct me. Given that you are then give me ANY REASON THAT THERE SHOULD BE A DEDUCTION FROM IT.

There, 2 more questions in an attempt for an answer. I'm waiting.

2tall
11-04-2011, 12:16 PM
Buzz, nice post. I too am sick of being labeled liberal, democrat, re-distributor, etc. I have said it before and I will again, if you are doing "ok" then you blame the misfortune of people on their own lack of will to do better. Some of us that now comprise the unemployment rolls, have never taken a single dime of government money. I am not talking about the perennial unemployed, which have existed in this country for years. I am talking about those of us who lost our entire livelihood in the banking and real estate collapse of 2008. So I am not crying out, "Me, Me, Me" but "Us, Us, Us". This includes real estate sales people, mortgage processors, home builders, loan originators, electricians, carpenters, brick layers, hardware stores, fleet vehicle salesmen, need I go on?? Do you have any idea how many of us are out there? No self employed people show up on the unemployment figures. The independant contractors and commissioned only do not show up. But no, we are not asking for a redistribution of anyone else's wealth. What I am appalled at is the executives of the banking, insurance and pharmaceutical industries that raped this economy and walked away scott free. BOA fired its two top execs, and sent them off to lick their wounds with over $11,000,000 in severance! In 2008, the year the real misery began, the top 5 pharma execs made over $30,000,000 (apiece) that year! So my question is if you are "comfortable" and basking in the glow of, "I worked hard for it, I earned it, and the rest of the country be damned, think about all it would take for your security and comfort to disappear in the same manner.

Just for the record, I have never voted democrat. I did vote for Bush and have been what most consider a conservative all my life until I saw what was being done by the greediest in the name of freemarket capitalism. I would be delighted to get a job right now of any kind, retail, burger flippin', walmart greeter. But there are 100's of applications in for all these positions. Guess who they are from? Not the college kid, not the semi retired, but the educated, middle aged, forgotten fall outs from the biggest economic disaster this country has ever seen. I believe the only thing that will save us is compassion and empathy for each other, and a refusal to support the old cliches and catch phrases.

(whew, what is WRONG with me, I know better than to say stuff like this here).

BonMallari
11-04-2011, 12:18 PM
don't get me started on the Estate Tax...that is the biggest piece of crap that the govt does...my lease owner's dad passed away about 20 yrs ago,he was very wealthy, owned most of the town in which he lived, even donated the land that the local HS was built on..the kids had to sell the 10k acre ranch, that was prime hunting,cattle grazing land just to pay the taxes on the estate...hunted many a day on that ranch,the govt did nothing to deserve a portion of that place, their dad had that place since the 1940's and built it up from scratch,he even opened up the first bank in that town

Gerry Clinchy
11-04-2011, 01:30 PM
Carol, as one of those real estate salespeople, yup, we are also self-employed, independent contractors, and know exactly what you mean about not showing up on the unemployment roles. While the boom was going on, my business improved, but also our industry is plagued by many part-timers who get into the business when things are booming & go back to their "regular" jobs when the boom fizzles. We also worked at least twice as hard with buyers writing agreements on homes that went to other higher-bidding buyers; and having to start from scratch with the buyers who didn't win the lottery the first, or second go-round.

The inexperienced "newbies" and the %-age that are always disreputable undoubtedly put people into some unsustainable mortgages. Most experienced agents knew that the real estate market is ALWAYS cyclical & were waiting for the second shoe to fall as we watched the unsustainable boom. That bubble falls to the financial and regulatory forces that created it. Doggone hard to talk people out of buying a house when the mortgage guy is handing out money. Like you, though, I think that those responsible for creating the conditions for that bubble should be strung up, not rewarded with millions in severance!

Not sure I can fault the pharma execs for making a bunch of money. I am always called to remember that we have pharmaceuticals today that can do things not dreamed of in 1979, like producing cancer remissions and "cures" never envisioned 40 years ago. The financial guys, however, are not in the same category. Just a difference there.

I think of the millions that energy execs make ... and then don't do their jobs! Our local electric company made record profits the year BEFORE our rates went up 30%! Then the trees came down last Saturday, throwing over 300,000 people into darkness for almost a week. Duh? It was the transmission and distribution that generated those profits ... that could have been used trimming more trees more effectively!

I think that the cliches might be interpreted to include groups that they should not include. Those "the educated, middle aged, forgotten fall outs from the biggest economic disaster this country has ever seen" that are applying for those low-paying jobs you mention are, indeed, the ones who deserve the compassion and "a hand up". I believe all those on this forum who may have used the catch-phrases, believes that, too.

caryalsobrook
11-04-2011, 01:34 PM
2tall, much of what you say is correct. Former patients and friends of mine are having to sell boats, 4-wheelers, cars, tools,and anything else they can sell just to eat. I have watched a friend of mine who probably made a lot more money than I who is now for all practical purposes broke. He like you after losing his business is will to take a job, any job. He has sold almost everything he has accumulated just to stay afloat. I do think you are wrong on who you blame.

Let me pose a question and answer. What race has been "under the care" of the gov. for the longest period of time? The Indians have and where has that gotten them. The only break they have had is the oportunity to own casinos, and that is only recently.

I also have a friend who is in the top 1%. He is now 68 years old, worked 7 days a week till 2009, owns a small companty that had in 2008, about 40 employees. He had bought an adjacent lot and intended to expand his business. He now has about 19 employees, will not expand and works about 20 hours a week and still makes as much as he ever did. We have coffee and go to eat breakfast usually on Saturdays and I have listened to him since 2008. He won't hire because he does not know what the gov. will do to him. Keynesians believe the problem is lack of demand. He has turned down contracts for more business because he has no idea what just the healthcare bill will affect him. Instead, if demand goes up, he just raises his prices and does not produce more. Many people in business have the same attitude and I can't blame them.

You can tell I am not a big fan of large government nor of it's ability to improve one's situation. take a look at the health care bill. Personally, I think you would either have to be an idiot or someone who never expects to pay their way to be in favor of it. Simple facts tell me this. So far the gov. has given aprox. 2000 waivers to it and IT HASN'T EVEN MADE IT TO THESHOWROOM. Can you imagine a car that has just been shiped and already had 2000 recalls. Do you believe ANYONE WOULD BUY SUCH A CAR? I can't, but mant have been convinced that the gov. can solve the problem when actually IT IS THE PROBLEM.

those rich that made tens of millions a year in 2008? there now is less than half as mant. Those who made over a million a year, now there are less than 60% of them.

Just as people, large corporations are becomingdependent on the policies of the government and as such also seek favors from it. aGAIN THE MORE THE GOV IS INVOLVED THE MORE DEPENDENCE AND CONTROL IT GAINS ON AN INDIVIDUAL OR A BUSINESS FOR THAT MATTER.

Let me give you another example of so called gov control. The DEpt. of Energy was formed under the Carter Administration. It's sole responsibility WAS TO REDUCE THE US DEPENDENCE ON FOREIGH OIL. At that time we imported 25% of our oil. Today we import ove 70%. After 100's of billions of dollars, this is the gov impact on our dependence on foreign oil. Talk about a failure.

People who run business want to hire, expand and improve their businesses but they won't if they are looking over thier shoulder afraid that gov. policy will ruin them.

Five years after college, I decided I decided what I wanted in my life. I wanted to work for myself, live where I wanted and spend less than I made. I thought that would be possible if I were to become a dentist and that's what I did. I actually lucked up. I met those criteria and I would up loving the work. I have been lucky but ther is not a day that I don't think of patients and friends that find themselves in the same situation as you. Believe me I am not the only one. The sad part is that I can see this going on for at least another 6 years and maybe riots to boot.

luvmylabs23139
11-04-2011, 02:08 PM
That is an interesting story. But it doesn't really address the issue of increasing income disparity over the last 30 years and the possible government policies that may have contributed to it. I wasn't suggesting that it's time to start confiscating wealth and redistributing it.

I can't for the life me understand how my concern about this growing disparity means that I'm some kind of crazy liberal that hates the 1% and wants to take their money away. To be honest, I was kind of shocked at the responses I got. It seems to me that regardless of what rung on the economic ladder you're standing on, what that chart shows should concern you about the future of the country that I think we all love...

The thing is that liberals fail to note the fact that people move UP from the lower levels to the higher levels every year. The lower levels consist more and more of illegals or those that mutilpy like rabbits. Why not tell the full story.

luvmylabs23139
11-04-2011, 02:24 PM
Buzz, nice post. I too am sick of being labeled liberal, democrat, re-distributor, etc. I have said it before and I will again, if you are doing "ok" then you blame the misfortune of people on their own lack of will to do better. Some of us that now comprise the unemployment rolls, have never taken a single dime of government money. I am not talking about the perennial unemployed, which have existed in this country for years. I am talking about those of us who lost our entire livelihood in the banking and real estate collapse of 2008. So I am not crying out, "Me, Me, Me" but "Us, Us, Us". This includes real estate sales people, mortgage processors, home builders, loan originators, electricians, carpenters, brick layers, hardware stores, fleet vehicle salesmen, need I go on?? Do you have any idea how many of us are out there? No self employed people show up on the unemployment figures. The independant contractors and commissioned only do not show up. But no, we are not asking for a redistribution of anyone else's wealth. What I am appalled at is the executives of the banking, insurance and pharmaceutical industries that raped this economy and walked away scott free. BOA fired its two top execs, and sent them off to lick their wounds with over $11,000,000 in severance! In 2008, the year the real misery began, the top 5 pharma execs made over $30,000,000 (apiece) that year! So my question is if you are "comfortable" and basking in the glow of, "I worked hard for it, I earned it, and the rest of the country be damned, think about all it would take for your security and comfort to disappear in the same manner.

Just for the record, I have never voted democrat. I did vote for Bush and have been what most consider a conservative all my life until I saw what was being done by the greediest in the name of freemarket capitalism. I would be delighted to get a job right now of any kind, retail, burger flippin', walmart greeter. But there are 100's of applications in for all these positions. Guess who they are from? Not the college kid, not the semi retired, but the educated, middle aged, forgotten fall outs from the biggest economic disaster this country has ever seen. I believe the only thing that will save us is compassion and empathy for each other, and a refusal to support the old cliches and catch phrases.

(whew, what is WRONG with me, I know better than to say stuff like this here).
What has pharma done to piss you off? Anyway how many houses were sold by realtors to people that they knew could not afford the mortgage long term?
How many mortgages were aproved by people that knew "in their gutt" the person could not repay it?
Back in 97 when DH and I were relocating and wanted to buy a house we were under pressure from real estate agents to get prequalified and give the agent that info. WE had already gotten pre approved by our credit union, so we knew what we could spend but that was a lot more than we were willing to since we did not want a mortgage based on both incomes.
1. NO realtor works for the client, they all work for themselves.
WE had one get pissed at us because we would not work just with them. Oh well, tough crap.

2tall
11-04-2011, 03:54 PM
Luvmylabs, Dahlin'... you are an example of why I don't post here often. This is the kind of closed minded, cold hearted, bigoted reply I have come to expect. If you ever bother to educate yourself and join a conversation with an original thought, I would love to interact. For now, I am just going to let the sewage flow underneath the bridge. TaTa!

BTW, I really enjoyed the replies from Gerry and Cary. We do not agree on all, but it was a pleasant exchange of ideas. This is what the world needs now.

luvmylabs23139
11-04-2011, 04:36 PM
Luvmylabs, Dahlin'... you are an example of why I don't post here often. This is the kind of closed minded, cold hearted, bigoted reply I have come to expect. If you ever bother to educate yourself and join a conversation with an original thought, I would love to interact. For now, I am just going to let the sewage flow underneath the bridge. TaTa!

BTW, I really enjoyed the replies from Gerry and Cary. We do not agree on all, but it was a pleasant exchange of ideas. This is what the world needs now.
What exactly did I say that you consider " close minded , bigoted, and cold hearted"?
Let me guess, "multiply like rabbits" .
NOthing about that is wrong. People need to take responsibility for their actions, If you can't feed them don't breed them. Rather simple, DO NOT HAVE SEX UNLESS YOU CAN PROVIDE FOR THE RESULTS.
People can keep their legs crossed and their pants zipped end of story!

luvmylabs23139
11-04-2011, 05:20 PM
Luvmylabs, Dahlin'... you are an example of why I don't post here often. This is the kind of closed minded, cold hearted, bigoted reply I have come to expect. If you ever bother to educate yourself and join a conversation with an original thought, I would love to interact. For now, I am just going to let the sewage flow underneath the bridge. TaTa!

BTW, I really enjoyed the replies from Gerry and Cary. We do not agree on all, but it was a pleasant exchange of ideas. This is what the world needs now.


Let's see. I said mortgage brokers and realtors were only interested in their own commissions thus I'm the bad guy? The banks were not alone in the real estate mess. I sold bought 2 homes and sold 2 homes both due to relocation in that time frame, and at no point did a realtor trully have my best interests in mind.
When moving from VA to NC ( corp relo) 3 realtors providing by the relocation company were thrown out of my house for failure to provide accurate comps as an attempt to get me to firesale my house for a quick commission. We ended up selling our house for $45,000 more than the suggested listing price from the first crook they sent us.

luvmylabs23139
11-04-2011, 06:18 PM
Luvmylabs, Dahlin'... you are an example of why I don't post here often. This is the kind of closed minded, cold hearted, bigoted reply I have come to expect. If you ever bother to educate yourself and join a conversation with an original thought, I would love to interact. For now, I am just going to let the sewage flow underneath the bridge. TaTa!

BTW, I really enjoyed the replies from Gerry and Cary. We do not agree on all, but it was a pleasant exchange of ideas. This is what the world needs now.


I'd still like you to explain what I have said on this thread that is " closed minded, bigoted, and cold hearted." still waiting for a reasonable reply. Do not expect me to accept that I should pay for kids people breed but can;t pay for. That wil never happen since they can simply keep the pants zipped and the leggs crossed. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Gerry Clinchy
11-04-2011, 08:30 PM
Guess I have to add my two cents, since I am a RealtorŪ. And I truly DO understand your frustration.


Anyway how many houses were sold by realtors to people that they knew could not afford the mortgage long term?


I have to refer back to my earlier statement. It's not easy to talk someone our of buyiing a house when the mortgage guy is handing out money.


How many mortgages were aproved by people that knew "in their gutt" the person could not repay it?

The major problem was that the people who asked for those mortgages wanted to buy a house, and if the mortgage fellow fully explained (as many did) the terms of the funky mortgages, the people who took them simply did not understand. Nobody ever gave them the "education" they needed.

One of our small, local low-income loan programs required the applicants to go to three classes as part of their eligibility for the program. Many of those people knew more than some higher-end buyers! They also required a down payment from the applicant's own savings, in place at least 90 days before they could purchase a home. Why? Because they felt it was important to know that the applicants had had the determination and self-discipline to save for home ownership.

That kind of stuff went out the window during the bubble.

Back in 97 when DH and I were relocating and wanted to buy a house we were under pressure from real estate agents to get prequalified and give the agent that info.

I always send people to a mortgage company first. How do I know what houses to show them if I don't know what they can afford? Some people really have no clue!

I advise my clients that it serves no purpose to look at houses too far below their qualification level, as they will not be likely happy with what those houses are like. Also, they waste their time looking at houses too far above their qualification level, since they may really like those houses, but can't buy them. Meanwhile the house in the right price range that was a really good deal for them will be sold to someone else. So, you find out what you can afford, and then look at houses in a range slightly below and slightly above your affordability amount (within reason to negotiate downward).

WE had already gotten pre approved by our credit union, so we knew what we could spend but that was a lot more than we were willing to since we did not want a mortgage based on both incomes.

That is an intelligent decision, and sharing that with your agent, can help find the right house. They still need to know what you can afford on one income. And it could be reasonable to go just slightly above that one income affordabiltiy when you plan a long-term stay in the house if the house makes it worthwhile.

1. NO realtor works for the client, they all work for themselves.

I have to take exception to that. There are some people who are dishonest or inept in every profession, but most Realtors work very hard for their clients. We give our services away free & wait to get paid until we have succeeded in the task. Doctors get paid whether you get well or not. Lawyers get paid whether you win the lawsuit or not (except for the ambulance chasers, that is).

I might also suggest that everyone works for themselves. Whatever one's job, they go to work each day to earn a roof over their heads, college for their kids, a reliable car to drive. I doubt that any of them think about paying the mortgage for their employer, or sending their employer's kids to college :-) The idea, however, is that it is a fair and voluntary exchange

WE had one get pissed at us because we would not work just with them. Oh well, tough crap. I could go into extensive detail here, but won't bore everyone with that! Just simply say, that if the individual impresses you with their knowledge, why would you not work with them only? If you have not seen that glimmer of hope, why would you work with them at all?

If an employer told you to show up for work each day, and would tell you then who he would put to work that day, what would you do? I'd say that you might look for an employer that is willing to hire you for a period of time; and then decide whether you should continue that relationship or not.

Ironically, most people buy or sell a home working with the first warm body that answers a phone or whom they meet at an open house. Pure, random chance. It's no wonder that so many people end up with some pretty unhappy experiences.
[/QUOTE]

[quote]When moving from VA to NC ( corp relo) 3 realtors providing by the relocation company were thrown out of my house for failure to provide accurate comps as an attempt to get me to firesale my house for a quick commission. We ended up selling our house for $45,000 more than the suggested listing price from the first crook they sent us.

The relationship between relocation company, employer and the relocating employee is a complicated one. Any employee can use any agent they wish ... as long as that agent is still willing to fork over 25% of their commission to the relocation company.

I can recall one relo experience. A great couple. We had an intense 3-day marathon of home viewings. Finally found the perfect home. They were coming from CA, and wanted to offer too much for the house. They thought the price I was suggesting was too low, but their offer was accepted. About $5000 saved on their behalf.

A year later they had to move again. The house was still worth what they had paid for it, but they thought it was worth almost $20K more. They had a relo "bonus" coming to them if they sold without going to the relo company. So, I had the listing for 30 days at the price THEY wanted. Went to another agent chosen by the relo company ... reduced the price to my original suggested price; sold it in a matter of days. NOT listening to me cost them about $5000 cash by loss of the "bonus".

It's regrettable that you were not able to find an agent whom you truly believed had your best interests at heart, but they do exist.

charly_t
11-04-2011, 08:50 PM
Let me pose a question and answer. What race has been "under the care" of the gov. for the longest period of time? The Indians have and where has that gotten them. The only break they have had is the oportunity to own casinos, and that is only recently.


Got to add a little here.........The US government rejected a lot of claims by we "Native Americans" back when we gave up our land during one of the many moves we were forced to make ( Cherokees in my case ). My family got tired of moving and giving up what we had built. Who knew that we would lose everything by not signing yet another "treaty". My point........and it is one learned by many before they depart this world............is that it turned out to be a blessing in many ways. Our family were already earning their own way on our own tribal lands back east. Most Native Americans were. Most people don't realize that at one time each Native Americans could not vote, could not own land and were not even recognized as people. Anyhow it was and is a blessing to have given up some things. I do miss being part of the tribe and being rejected so to speak by
legitimate tribe members. Anyhow the government is not controlling our family any more than it controls other Americans at this time. Last thought here......... "revolt" is good when done in the correct way :-)

caryalsobrook
11-05-2011, 04:21 AM
Got to add a little here.........The US government rejected a lot of claims by we "Native Americans" back when we gave up our land during one of the many moves we were forced to make ( Cherokees in my case ). My family got tired of moving and giving up what we had built. Who knew that we would lose everything by not signing yet another "treaty". My point........and it is one learned by many before they depart this world............is that it turned out to be a blessing in many ways. Our family were already earning their own way on our own tribal lands back east. Most Native Americans were. Most people don't realize that at one time each Native Americans could not vote, could not own land and were not even recognized as people. Anyhow it was and is a blessing to have given up some things. I do miss being part of the tribe and being rejected so to speak by
legitimate tribe members. Anyhow the government is not controlling our family any more than it controls other Americans at this time. Last thought here......... "revolt" is good when done in the correct way :-)

A kid who worked for me at the health department later went to dental school(God forbid that it was my influence). He took a job with the gov. treating those on an Indian reservation, I believe in Ok. He talked of the living conditions there when he came back to visit. Please forgive my ignorance but I have never been on a reservation except maybe when passing through the Smokey Mts. in Tennessee. One always gets into trouble when making generalizations. Your family obviously made their own way at the cost of rejection by the tribe.

As I understand it, in return for signing the treaty, the gov. was to provide adaquate living conditions as payment. That payment has not only been inadaquate but has locked those that have remained on the reservations, in poverty. that was the point I was trying to make.

Gerry Clinchy
11-05-2011, 08:28 AM
On the topic of "windfall" income without the knowledge to handle it ...
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2011/11/04/octomoms-nadya-suleman-ond-kate-gosselin-in-financial-straits/

I have a hard time understanding why someone who already had 6 children (Nadia) would not have taken steps to avoid having #7 ... much less, as it turned out, 8! more. Multiple births of that level usually result from fertility drugs, although no mention of that is made in the article. Good Lord! Why would anyone with 6 kids take fertility drugs?

I never watch reality shows ... much less that one about the 8 kids, so I have no idea about the background of Kate Gosselin's story either.

Mentions that Nadia's monthly expenses are $12,000! Whew! That's almost $1000 per child. Whatever happened the economies of volume? The radio host is giving her a nanny & a class to become a personal trainer. Should have also given her a class in how to formulate a budget. What happens when she becomes a personal trainer, and can't earn enough to pay for those nanny services herself?

But they are good examples of how money not "earned" is easily spent with no concept of how far the money will go, and

luvmylabs23139
11-05-2011, 09:46 AM
The relationship between relocation company, employer and the relocating employee is a complicated one. Any employee can use any agent they wish ... as long as that agent is still willing to fork over 25% of their commission to the relocation company.

I can recall one relo experience. A great couple. We had an intense 3-day marathon of home viewings. Finally found the perfect home. They were coming from CA, and wanted to offer too much for the house. They thought the price I was suggesting was too low, but their offer was accepted. About $5000 saved on their behalf.

A year later they had to move again. The house was still worth what they had paid for it, but they thought it was worth almost $20K more. They had a relo "bonus" coming to them if they sold without going to the relo company. So, I had the listing for 30 days at the price THEY wanted. Went to another agent chosen by the relo company ... reduced the price to my original suggested price; sold it in a matter of days. NOT listening to me cost them about $5000 cash by loss of the "bonus".

It's regrettable that you were not able to find an agent whom you truly believed had your best interests at heart, but they do exist.


Corp relo with buy out agreements are a nightmare to deal with as the homeowner. Everyone is working against the homeowner. The mission is to get the house sold ASAP so it is not taken into inventory. The only reason we knew how and why to fight back against the fire sale was that I was an HR manager that used the same company for the corp relo's and knew who to call and pitch a fit to and call them on the carpet.
Had I been a regular relo person we would have been totally screwed.

charly_t
11-05-2011, 09:48 AM
A kid who worked for me at the health department later went to dental school(God forbid that it was my influence). He took a job with the gov. treating those on an Indian reservation, I believe in Ok. He talked of the living conditions there when he came back to visit. Please forgive my ignorance but I have never been on a reservation except maybe when passing through the Smokey Mts. in Tennessee. One always gets into trouble when making generalizations. Your family obviously made their own way at the cost of rejection by the tribe.

As I understand it, in return for signing the treaty, the gov. was to provide adaquate living conditions as payment. That payment has not only been inadaquate but has locked those that have remained on the reservations, in poverty. that was the point I was trying to make.

No need to forgive your ignorance...........I have never been on an Indian reservation either ( I hear some of them are really bad also ). Well it does say "entering the Osage reservation" as you enter our county but it is
just like the other areas in OK owned by anyone else. The US government has "mis-laid" money owed to tribes at a level that most people don't believe.
And I do get your point. Lots of Native Americans back then "drank the kool aid". Of course there were no other choices in a lot of cases ( they just rounded us up and moved us ). We lost our "rights" in our family because we were not within the boundaries of what is now Oklahoma when the Dawes roll came along. Of course we were racially mixed by then but so were most Native Americans. Long stories about all this. Anyhow as I said before........
it was a blessing in many ways as we made our own way in this world. We joined the other people in this country who made their own living and made their own choices ( at least as far as the government allows the general population ). Angie Debo writes well of what happened to many Native Americans in Oklahoma.

Gerry Clinchy
11-05-2011, 05:04 PM
Corp relo with buy out agreements are a nightmare to deal with as the homeowner.

Everyone is working against the homeowner.

In some ways that does appear to be the case. However, the relo companies I've dealt with pay for two appraisals on the property to assess value ... not just the individual agent's market analysis.

The homeowner is privvy to the results of the appraisals, but are not allowed to share the info with the agent who might list the home. However, the homeowner has two independent opinions to use as data to decide if the prospective listing agent is giving them a reasonable list price.

The mission is to get the house sold ASAP so it is not taken into inventory.

Yes, it is much less expensive NOT to take the home into inventory. So the "bonus" to the employee can help make up for a slightly below-market list price. Then everyone benefits. Inventory costs are saved; and homeowner comes out "clean" due to the bonus.


The only reason we knew how and why to fight back against the fire sale was that I was an HR manager that used the same company for the corp relo's and knew who to call and pitch a fit to and call them on the carpet.
Had I been a regular relo person we would have been totally screwed.

A helpful adjunct would also have been finding an agent who was a straight-shooter, & they would also have honestly helped you set a realistic price. Generally, the relo company will not argue with a homeowner's choice as long as the agent cooperates with the relo company.


If the relo company involved wasn't doing independent appraisals, then maybe it was not as good as some other relo company might have been in that regard. The appraisals do help the homeowner know if the prospective listing agent is doing their job. The appraisers are the 2nd and 3rd opinion that are paid only for their opinions & not part of the transaction. Therefore, the appraisers' opinions should be relatively unbiased & offer comparison for the homeowner to the prospective listing agent.


You could say that real estate professionals are sort of like dog breeders. You can follow the rules, or you can go the extra mile. It all boils down to the individual's personal integrity.

charly_t
11-05-2011, 06:13 PM
You could say that real estate professionals are sort of like dog breeders. You can follow the rules, or you can go the extra mile. It all boils down to the individual's personal integrity.

What the rules say and what makes a good dog are two very different things. Rules......"hospital operating room clean" but no time left to bond with the dogs. I hate to keep repeating this story but it happened to us so it is etched in my memory........Two buildings for the dogs.......one empty with repairs going on in it. USDA inspecter arrives......we show him what we are doing in the empty building. He writes us up because we have a hammer and nails on top of an empty pen in the empty building. Danger to the dogs you know ( yeah, right !!!! ). Never mind that the dogs would have to exit the pens from the new building ( climb the fence of course ) run the 100 plus yards to the old building ( climb the fence ) and go into that building. Yeah, I do love government employees........NOT !!!!

Gotta go..... I have a celibration ( ? ) tonight :-)

Blackstone
11-06-2011, 05:20 PM
Let me pose a question and answer. What race has been "under the care" of the gov. for the longest period of time? The Indians have and where has that gotten them. The only break they have had is the oportunity to own casinos, and that is only recently.

I don't think you can call what the Gov. did to Native Americans caring for them. Under the abuse of the Gov. is more like it.

Steve Hester
11-06-2011, 07:24 PM
I don't think you can call what the Gov. did to Native Americans caring for them. Under the abuse of the Gov. is more like it.

Uh, I think that was kind of his point.....

caryalsobrook
11-06-2011, 07:28 PM
I don't think you can call what the Gov. did to Native Americans caring for them. Under the abuse of the Gov. is more like it.
In the name of "caring for people" we now have the "fairness" doctrine and "entitlement" programs.

Blackstone
11-07-2011, 10:10 AM
Uh, I think that was kind of his point.....

Not really. You can't compare, or blame, what happened to Native Americans on any entitlement programs.

caryalsobrook
11-07-2011, 03:51 PM
Not really. You can't compare, or blame, what happened to Native Americans on any entitlement programs.

The heck you can't. you don't think those who offered the treaty put it forth as HELPING THE INDIANS?? Sure they did.

You don't think that a large percent of those today on gov. assistance are 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations. You need to open your eyes. Those people have become slaves to the gov.entitlement system as as such are depentant and have been depentant on the gov. for generations. They now are controlled by the gov.