PDA

View Full Version : Our economic future



cpj
01-24-2012, 10:36 AM
We are spinning our wheels in political discussions so I thought I'd try starting a discussion on our economic future. Are you paying any attention to the Euro mess and how it will effect our economy? Do you think our currency is dying? Are you aware that Middle East and Far Eastern countries are starting to negotiate payment to each other in gold and currencies other than dollars? What's are the possibilities of a one world currency? What happens to our debt, we can't repay it? Will we go back to a precious metals backed currency? Just a few suggestions, add to them if you want.

Jason Glavich
01-24-2012, 10:50 AM
I consulted an all knowing source for the answer to this.

"Outlook not so good" said the Magic 8 Ball.

And I agree with his answer.

menmon
01-24-2012, 10:55 AM
We are spinning our wheels in political discussions so I thought I'd try starting a discussion on our economic future. Are you paying any attention to the Euro mess and how it will effect our economy? Do you think our currency is dying? Are you aware that Middle East and Far Eastern countries are starting to negotiate payment to each other in gold and currencies other than dollars? What's are the possibilities of a one world currency? What happens to our debt, we can't repay it? Will we go back to a precious metals backed currency? Just a few suggestions, add to them if you want.

The euro mess will have and is having an effect on our economy, do to the counterparty trades with european banks. Our markets adjust daily reflectiong the precived outcome of the euro mess, therefore, there is no surprise coming from over there.

The middle east has always held gold, so nothing new there.

There will never be one currency, for all the reasons the euro has struggled.

We can not repay our debt, so eventually there will be a restructure of the debt.

We will not return to a precious metals backed currency, nor should we.

Franco
01-24-2012, 11:04 AM
The euro mess will have and is having an effect on our economy, do to the counterparty trades with european banks. Our markets adjust daily reflectiong the precived outcome of the euro mess, therefore, there is no surprise coming from over there.

The middle east has always held gold, so nothing new there.

There will never be one currency, for all the reasons the euro has struggled.

We can not repay our debt, so eventually there will be a restructure of the debt.

We will not return to a precious metals backed currency, nor should we.

Spoken like a true banker;-)

CPJ, until we settle on real money and not Fiat money it will be a mess! The Neocons and Liberals want us focused elsewhere and not on monetary and banking issues. They would much rather us rant about Gay Marriage and Islamic Terror then address what is really killing us!

menmon
01-24-2012, 11:17 AM
The euro mess will have and is having an effect on our economy, do to the counterparty trades with european banks. Our markets adjust daily reflectiong the precived outcome of the euro mess, therefore, there is no surprise coming from over there.

The middle east has always held gold, so nothing new there.

There will never be one currency, for all the reasons the euro has struggled.

We can not repay our debt, so eventually there will be a restructure of the debt.

We will not return to a precious metals backed currency, nor should we.

Spoken like a true banker;-)

CPJ, until we settle on real money and not Fiat money it will be a mess! The Neocons and Liberals want us focused elsewhere and not on monetary and banking issues. They would much rather us rant about Gay Marriage and Islamic Terror then address what is really killing us!

I agree with you on they prefer us worrying about gay marriage and terrorism.

The dollar will not be pegged with gold again.

cpj
01-24-2012, 11:22 AM
I know the middle east has always held gold,the point is that they are going to start using it as currency/payment. I would think the global elite's argument for a one world currency would to see the Euro's problems and argue they need more, stronger countries involved. I believe it was James Turk I heard recently state that around 150 currencies around the world have failed since WWII. Most fiat currencies last approx. 40 years. We've been on a fiat currency since '73. If you aren't familiar with Turk, he has some fascinating interviews on YouTube. Interviews of James (Jim ) Grant and Doug Casey come to mind. My point with the Middle Eastern countries is that we are financially sanctioning Iran and they are saying, screw you we'll bypass your dollars. Qaddafi was also rumored to have been discussing trading oil for gold.

menmon
01-24-2012, 11:49 AM
I know the middle east has always held gold,the point is that they are going to start using it as currency/payment. I would think the global elite's argument for a one world currency would to see the Euro's problems and argue they need more, stronger countries involved. I believe it was James Turk I heard recently state that around 150 currencies around the world have failed since WWII. Most fiat currencies last approx. 40 years. We've been on a fiat currency since '73. If you aren't familiar with Turk, he has some fascinating interviews on YouTube. Interviews of James (Jim ) Grant and Doug Casey come to mind. My point with the Middle Eastern countries is that we are financially sanctioning Iran and they are saying, screw you we'll bypass your dollars. Qaddafi was also rumored to have been discussing trading oil for gold.

I don't believe that...I do believe they trade with dollars and then buy gold as an investment. It is too bulky. Now have they ever traded one of their buddy gold, the answer is probably yes, but EXXON is not buying oil with gold.

Think about the commodity shocks to gold in the current financial enviornment.

cpj
01-24-2012, 01:50 PM
Sambo, you don't have to believe me, go to goldmoney.com and read the story, "Indians To Pay For Iranian Oil With Gold". Go to Zerohedge.com, pg. 4 and see article, "Currency Wars, Iran Banned From Trading Gold And Silver". If you haven't discovered zerohedge it is worth looking at often. They usually report news hours or days before the MSM. I'm starting to hear people like Rush, cnbc etc. quoting zerohedge articles. They aren't necessarily trading gold bars they are probably trading IOU's on gold held in vaults somewhere. Have you heard or read about the spike in demand in silver eagles from the mint?

BonMallari
01-24-2012, 02:18 PM
one world currency will NEVER happen...

could you even imagine all the bogus money that could get made out there, you think counterfeiting is high now :rolleyes:

YardleyLabs
01-24-2012, 03:27 PM
I believe that our nation's economic problems are immensely deeper than either political party is prepared to discuss or address.

Globalization is inevitable and irreversible. However, one immediate consequence of globalization is that capital is more mobile than labor. As a consequence, capital naturally migrates to those parts of the world the highest labor productivity at the lowest relative cost.

Our standard of living and our fundamental lifestyle have always been predicated on the fact that our workforce was the most productive in the world because of higher levels of education, an economic and political structure that made it relatively easier to implement more efficient production methods by denying protection for entrenched power, and a broad distribution of income and wealth that helped ensure that a high percentage of gross product would immediately re-enter the economy through consumption.

Over the last 40 years we have fallen dramatically behind the rest of the world on all fronts.

An educational system that previously helped ensure that a higher and higher percentage of the population would achieve higher levels of education (and productivity) has turned into one where the best educational resources are reserved for a smaller and smaller percentage of the population while the levels of educational attainment for the majority decline annually. This is evidenced by our decline from a clear educational leader in the world to a nation that ranks low among the industrial economies and is falling relative even to the world's developing economies.

While the return on capital has skyrocketed with the easy mobility of capital, the return on labor has plummeted. Each year a larger percentage of our wealth is held by a smaller percentage of the population and the consumer/worker has been left only with debt. This may actually be an inevitable step as costs of labor adjust globally to reflect changes in relative productivity. However, the immediate consequence is that there is simply no more consumer engine to fuel the American economy other than sales to consumers in other parts of the world. Efficiency demands that the shift in point of sale be mirrored by shifts in the location of production resources -- that is, the movement of jobs to other parts of the world -- isolating our own workforce even more.

These seismic shifts are creating a variety of conflicting political pressures. Class warfare, which found no takers in this country when wealth was broadly distributed and all were benefiting from growth, is now finding a lot of support. The overwhelming majority of the population is losing the war to stay ahead of the bill collectors despite working longer and longer hours each year. The entrenched winners in the economy see this and are fighting harder to preserve their status as winners with increases in personal income and wealth that dwarf anything seen in the first 200 years of our nation's existence. The unfortunate reality is that the real class warfare in this country has been initiated from the top down, and the top is winning as measured by the increasing concentration of wealth.

How does a small, powerful elite preserve power in a democracy? A variety of ways. It supports cultural and religious institutions that advocate for authority. It uses virtually unlimited money to manipulate legislative and legal action. It gains control of the courts. It encourages fear. All of these activities are things we see every day.

There are no "solutions" for many of our economic woes. The global realignment of incomes will continue. However, the gross concentration of wealth that we see happening now is not inevitable and will be addressed by nations throughout the world. The only question is whether the process happens peacefully or not.

[Just thought I would throw a little meat on the fire... ;)]

cpj
01-24-2012, 04:16 PM
Your right Bon, one world currency will never happen, and this just in, our founding fathers stopped by yesterday to check on things and said we're doing a great job!

Uncle Bill
01-24-2012, 05:27 PM
I believe that our nation's economic problems are immensely deeper than either political party is prepared to discuss or address.

Globalization is inevitable and irreversible. However, one immediate consequence of globalization is that capital is more mobile than labor. As a consequence, capital naturally migrates to those parts of the world the highest labor productivity at the lowest relative cost.

Our standard of living and our fundamental lifestyle have always been predicated on the fact that our workforce was the most productive in the world because of higher levels of education, an economic and political structure that made it relatively easier to implement more efficient production methods by denying protection for entrenched power, and a broad distribution of income and wealth that helped ensure that a high percentage of gross product would immediately re-enter the economy through consumption.

Over the last 40 years we have fallen dramatically behind the rest of the world on all fronts.

An educational system that previously helped ensure that a higher and higher percentage of the population would achieve higher levels of education (and productivity) has turned into one where the best educational resources are reserved for a smaller and smaller percentage of the population while the levels of educational attainment for the majority decline annually. This is evidenced by our decline from a clear educational leader in the world to a nation that ranks low among the industrial economies and is falling relative even to the world's developing economies.

While the return on capital has skyrocketed with the easy mobility of capital, the return on labor has plummeted. Each year a larger percentage of our wealth is held by a smaller percentage of the population and the consumer/worker has been left only with debt. This may actually be an inevitable step as costs of labor adjust globally to reflect changes in relative productivity. However, the immediate consequence is that there is simply no more consumer engine to fuel the American economy other than sales to consumers in other parts of the world. Efficiency demands that the shift in point of sale be mirrored by shifts in the location of production resources -- that is, the movement of jobs to other parts of the world -- isolating our own workforce even more.

These seismic shifts are creating a variety of conflicting political pressures. Class warfare, which found no takers in this country when wealth was broadly distributed and all were benefiting from growth, is now finding a lot of support. The overwhelming majority of the population is losing the war to stay ahead of the bill collectors despite working longer and longer hours each year. The entrenched winners in the economy see this and are fighting harder to preserve their status as winners with increases in personal income and wealth that dwarf anything seen in the first 200 years of our nation's existence. The unfortunate reality is that the real class warfare in this country has been initiated from the top down, and the top is winning as measured by the increasing concentration of wealth.

How does a small, powerful elite preserve power in a democracy? A variety of ways. It supports cultural and religious institutions that advocate for authority. It uses virtually unlimited money to manipulate legislative and legal action. It gains control of the courts. It encourages fear. All of these activities are things we see every day.

There are no "solutions" for many of our economic woes. The global realignment of incomes will continue. However, the gross concentration of wealth that we see happening now is not inevitable and will be addressed by nations throughout the world. The only question is whether the process happens peacefully or not.

[Just thought I would throw a little meat on the fire... ;)]


That's not "meat on the fire"...that's whining in an erudite fashion. For all your 'wordsmithing', it still comes out as another Democrat/socialist/atheist espousing his usual fodder for his liberal followers...or some of his liberal followers, the ones that don't have most of this sail over their heads, but lap it up because the almighty Yardley has again shown us the way.

Your simplistic reasoning about how we are losing our productivity is easily explained by the Atlas Shrugged story. (BTW, the only thing in common between you and Ayn Rand is your atheism, although her's was for strictly objectivism purposes)

As to our sad education system, much can be laid at the feet of that equally pathetic president that started the NEA, and the equally pathetic program of NCLB that Bush was hounded into producing (and I still fault him for being as weak-kneed as his father was in the tax arena) by that other equally pathetic Democrat socialist, Teddy K. So while you chastise the education system of this nation, you never point out the real reason for it's lousy showing that has occurred ever since that august body of "professionals" were allowed to become unionistas and tenured, which any modicum of intelligence would see that's a recipe for mediocrity at best, and New York rubber rooms at it's worst.

As to your view that the class warfare is being initiated from the top down is as ludicrous as anything you've uttered, but given your political proclivities, it's no doubt that would be the Democrat explanation to their faults of constantly expecting cradle to grave government hand-outs. If you believe the OWS crowd isn't leading the SFN group by exploiting the class envy spouted constantly by the Democrat's messiah, you have fallen on the sword once too often.

Comes now that final statement that is, for an Obama supporter, sacrilegious! It's a definite profanation aimed at the messiah and his optimism towards four more years of "hope and change". NO SOLUTIONS? How can this be? Hellsbells all we need to do is tax the rich and producers into poverty and in yours and the Democrats eyes, all will be solved. (BTW, FWIW, even if ALL U.S. citizens were taxed 100% of their income, it would still not be enough to BALANCE the Federal Budget! You won't see that published in the Democratically infested MSM. And you noticed I mentioned this is just to BALANCE our budget...AND NOTHING IS BEING DONE TO REDUCE THE DEBT)

You can bet your leader with his Chicago background and community leadership, training, and education, will be spewing that philosophical rhetoric (all BUT the truthful info I added in parenthesis) during his SOTU, and I use that acronym loosely, because we all know it will be just another campaign speech tonight.

There would be no "gross concentration of wealth" had the Jesse Jackson's, and Al Sharpton's of the world, along with all the other Democrats that have only 'used' the have-nots for their political gain. They'd rather they not be educated and responsible for their livelihood, but instead, keeping them dumb downed and sucking on the government teat, so they would continue to keep their Democrat politicians in power so the hand-outs would continue.

And once again, you have dumfounded me with that final line. After watching the SFN crowds in those European countries rioting because their governments are cutting their freebies because the nation is broke and no other country is willing to support their spendtrift ways, you have the audacity to 'guess' as to "whether the process happens peacefully or not"? Let me answer that for you...NOT!!!

In fact, be prepared, especially if we have 4 more years of a Democrat oligarchy in the White House, you can expect many more years of Democrat rule, because the SFNs, have-not, and OWS fools will have won, and will have the majority to vote in more big government to keep their SFN lifestyle working. But it won't be enough, because they will run out of other peoples money, and anarchy will follow.

Keep your powder dry, Yardley. You exhibit way too much wealth and can expect some of those 'class envy' folks, be they former wealthy and now stripped of their riches by your "share and be fair" socialists, or the more typical hoodlems, and druggies looking for easy rip-offs to B&E and ransack you home. But then, like most Dems, you can always blame Bush.:rolleyes:

UB

Buzz
02-05-2012, 07:20 AM
Finally, the economists who Republicans based their arguments for "austerity now" and that government stimulus could never stimulate anything are admitting that they were, well, they were wrong...

And Krugman was right???

The whole article is here: http://www.economist.com/comment/1238350

I realize that Cary will poo poo the whole article because it appeared in the dreaded liberal (really?) Economist.


Item 1: Over the past month, Paul Krugman, Brad DeLong, and Simon Wren-Lewis engaged in an interminable duel with Tyler Cowen, Scott Sumner, sort-of Karl Smith (occupying as usual an esoteric position not easily placed on the ideological grid), and probably some other people I'm forgetting—over an old argument by John Cochrane claiming that the multiplier effect of government stimulus spending probably ought to be zero. The argument by Mr Cochrane was a critical document in the stimulus debate, because it was an articulation in more-or-less public discourse by a well-respected economist of a mechanism through which increased government spending could fail to raise GDP or increase employment at all. Essentially every working practical economist and forecaster believed that the stimulus, like any other government spending, would raise aggregate demand, GDP, and employment. Republican politicians were arguing that it would not, and Mr Cochrane backed them up.

Two weeks ago, Mr Cochrane responded to the argument in a fashion that suggested that either he has changed his mind, or he never thought what the expansionary-austerity people claimed he did in the first place.

Let's be clear what the "fiscal stimulus" argument is and is not about.It is not about the proposition that governments should run deficits in recessions. They should, for simple tax-smoothing, consumption-smoothing, and social-insurance reasons, just as governments should finance wars with debt. That doesn't justify all deficits—one can still argue that our government used the recession to radically increase permanent spending. But disliking "stimulus" is not the same thing as calling for an annually balanced budget.Nor is it about debt financing of "infrastructure" or other genuine investments. If the project is valuable, do it. And recessions, with low interest rates and available workers, are good times to do it... Stimulus [is] still an economically interesting proposition, and there is a great deal of uncertainty about whether, when, and how well it might work.

And...


Item 2: Niall Ferguson has spent the last three years arguing, contra Paul Krugman, that America is courting disaster by allowing deficits to balloon its national debt to such high levels, and will have to reign in spending or face a crippling rise in interest rates. Last week, in an interview with Henry Blodget, he admitted defeat.

BLODGET: That is a shockingly optimistic view of the United States from you. Are you conceding to Paul Krugman that over the near-term we shouldn't worry so much?

FERGUSON: I think the issue here got a little confused, because Krugman wanted to portray me as a proponent of instant austerity, which I never was. My argument was that over ten years you have to have some credible plan to get back to fiscal balance because at some point you lose your credibility because on the present path, Congressional Budget Office figures make it clear, with every year the share of Federal tax revenues going to interest payments rises, there is a point after which it's no longer credible. But I didn't think that point was going to be this year or next year. I think the trend of nominal rates in the crisis has been the trend that he forecasted. And you know, I have to concede that.




And an interesting point about spending on clean energy.


On the other hand, the administration had to drop an idea that almost certainly would have made sense—building a national electric smart grid—because the jurisdictional and red-tape problems made it impossible to implement fast enough. Instead the administration decided to invest in clean energy; but those investments placed their bets too heavily on individual companies, some of which then went bankrupt. In an excerpt from the book on the electric car and battery industry jump-started by stimulus funding, Mr Grabell says the jury is still out: without a rapid pickup in demand for Leafs and Volts (which in turn depends on a big increase in electric charging stations), America's electric-car industry will probably fail to hit critical mass, and it'll wind up relocating to South Korea or China like every other manufacturing industry has.


Number one, I think it is a huge failure of policy that billions didn't get invested into our electrical grid, but I'm an electric power guy, so I'm biased.

But the part about electric car manufacturing going to Korea or China if it fails to hit critical mass here is spot on. That would be really cool to see the USA hand another critical manufacturing industry over to the Koreans and Chinese... :rolleyes:

road kill
02-05-2012, 07:26 AM
Finally, the economists who Republicans based their arguments for "austerity now" and that government stimulus could never stimulate anything are admitting that they were, well, they were wrong...

And Krugman was right???

The whole article is here: http://www.economist.com/comment/1238350

I realize that Cary will poo poo the whole article because it appeared in the dreaded liberal (really?) Economist.



And...






And an interesting point about spending on clean energy.




Number one, I think it is a huge failure of policy that billions didn't get invested into our electrical grid, but I'm an electric power guy, so I'm biased.

But the part about electric car manufacturing going to Korea or China if it fails to hit critical mass here is spot on. That would be really cool to see the USA hand another critical manufacturing industry over to the Koreans and Chinese... :rolleyes:

Hey Buzz, did you ever read my paper on using ultra sonic detection equipment for tracking corona discharge or dielectric breakdown in enclosed hi-voltage switchgear??
It also envolved using a parabolic for long distance corona tracking.

Level I thermographer regards,


RK

Buzz
02-05-2012, 07:39 AM
Hey Buzz, did you ever read my paper on using ultra sonic detection equipment for tracking corona discharge or dielectric breakdown in enclosed hi-voltage switchgear??
It also envolved using a parabolic for long distance corona tracking.

Level I thermographer regards,


RK

No, but I would like to.

Franco
02-05-2012, 09:23 AM
Finally, the economists who Republicans based their arguments for "austerity now" and that government stimulus could never stimulate anything are admitting that they were, well, they were wrong...

And Krugman was right???

The whole article is here: http://www.economist.com/comment/1238350

I realize that Cary will poo poo the whole article because it appeared in the dreaded liberal (really?) Economist.



And...






And an interesting point about spending on clean energy.




Number one, I think it is a huge failure of policy that billions didn't get invested into our electrical grid, but I'm an electric power guy, so I'm biased.

But the part about electric car manufacturing going to Korea or China if it fails to hit critical mass here is spot on. That would be really cool to see the USA hand another critical manufacturing industry over to the Koreans and Chinese... :rolleyes:

With the vast abundence of natural gas, I just don't see consumers buying electric cars.

Rather than the government trying to pick the technology, market forces would do a much better job of determining success or failure of what is needed. Afterall, the governments track record of picking losers is obvious.

In regards to Krugman and his peeps, all they really offer is kicking the problems down the road as opposed to fixing the problems at the core. In my book, our number one core problem is government's inability to be honest with the American people. We will not lose our Freedoms and Liberty to Islamic terrorist but to unions and entitlements! Unions have run mfg offshore and would make our entire nation a "rust belt" if they could.

menmon
02-06-2012, 10:37 AM
With the vast abundence of natural gas, I just don't see consumers buying electric cars.

Rather than the government trying to pick the technology, market forces would do a much better job of determining success or failure of what is needed. Afterall, the governments track record of picking losers is obvious.

In regards to Krugman and his peeps, all they really offer is kicking the problems down the road as opposed to fixing the problems at the core. In my book, our number one core problem is government's inability to be honest with the American people. We will not lose our Freedoms and Liberty to Islamic terrorist but to unions and entitlements! Unions have run mfg offshore and would make our entire nation a "rust belt" if they could.

Unions have not run our business offshore. Unions coined the phrase buy union thus meaning buy american. Freetrade has done more to costing american jobs than anything.

Clint Eastwood did a commercial for Chrysler last night that was awesome.

See if the vultures like Bain Capital would have won the trade with GM and Cyrsler. We would have lost auto manufacturing as they sold off the pieces, so the union's negotiations kept those companies in tack and those jobs here. The unions have the most to lose because their job is to keep their members working, so when the politicians give the power to the corporations, labor looses:(

Gerry Clinchy
02-06-2012, 10:53 AM
Sambo, if you truly believe that union wages and luxury benefits & union thuggery have had nothing to do with labor costs in the US car industry, there is no hope for reasoning with you.

I agree that the free trade agreements have done more to help our training partners than the US, but that does not vindicate the practice of the UAW of keeping workers paid for sitting in a room doing nothing as part of their union contracts.

Another example of union idiocy. Had a client working for a microchip mfr. When layoffs were needed most departments moved workers to other departments. Due to union contract, his department was not permitted to do that. So, for a full year, he (and his co-workers) were required to come to work each day (actually night shift) and DO NOTHING ... but union rules did not allow them to become unemployed. Occasionally someone actually came around to see if they had actually showed up. As long as they punched in and punched out, that was the proof that they had been there ... doing nothing. Meanwhile these workers also continued to receive company health insurance and pension accruals.

Maybe unions are still viable for some purposes ... although govt agencies like OSHA have stepped in to do some of the protective duties originally union concerns (worker safety). Unions, like politicians, succumbed to corruption, giving birth to yet more govt controls.

menmon
02-06-2012, 11:04 AM
Sambo, if you truly believe that union wages and luxury benefits & union thuggery have had nothing to do with labor costs in the US car industry, there is no hope for reasoning with you.

I agree that the free trade agreements have done more to help our training partners than the US, but that does not vindicate the practice of the UAW of keeping workers paid for sitting in a room doing nothing as part of their union contracts.

Another example of union idiocy. Had a client working for a microchip mfr. When layoffs were needed most departments moved workers to other departments. Due to union contract, his department was not permitted to do that. So, for a full year, he (and his co-workers) were required to come to work each day (actually night shift) and DO NOTHING ... but union rules did not allow them to become unemployed. Occasionally someone actually came around to see if they had actually showed up. As long as they punched in and punched out, that was the proof that they had been there ... doing nothing. Meanwhile these workers also continued to receive company health insurance and pension accruals.

Maybe unions are still viable for some purposes ... although govt agencies like OSHA have stepped in to do some of the protective duties originally union concerns (worker safety). Unions, like politicians, succumbed to corruption, giving birth to yet more govt controls.

I'm not saying that unions and their leadership have not abused their power at times. As have the company their members work for, but all in all, the unions help protect their members jobs. See we can't count on government to help, because dollars from corporations bought and paid for the ablity to take these jobs overseas. This same free trade brought unfair competition, too. So I ask you, do you think the polices regarding trade and the tax enviornment did a lot for allowing these companies to move work overseas. If you do, then I suggest you realign yourself with who the unions are supporting.

Franco
02-06-2012, 11:09 AM
Problem is the fact that we do not have Free Trade here is the USA. We may attempt to compete with other countries but because of all the regs and cost of labor, we have to compete with one arm tied behind our back and our legs severed at the knees!

Franco
02-06-2012, 11:14 AM
I'm not saying that unions and their leadership have not abused their power at times. As have the company their members work for, but all in all, the unions help protect their members jobs. See we can't count on government to help, because dollars from corporations bought and paid for the ablity to take these jobs overseas. This same free trade brought unfair competition, too. So I ask you, do you think the polices regarding trade and the tax enviornment did a lot for allowing these companies to move work overseas. If you do, then I suggest you realign yourself with who the unions are supporting.

The UAW supports poor workmanship/quality, over-paid Labor and higher prices to the consumer.

Why do you think Mercedes Benz built thier plant in Alabama, Nissan in Mississippi, Toyota in Arkansas? While GM closed their plant in Louisiana?

The auto mfg poised to win in the future are in the Right To Work states!

menmon
02-06-2012, 11:17 AM
I'm not saying that unions and their leadership have not abused their power at times. As have the company their members work for, but all in all, the unions help protect their members jobs. See we can't count on government to help, because dollars from corporations bought and paid for the ablity to take these jobs overseas. This same free trade brought unfair competition, too. So I ask you, do you think the polices regarding trade and the tax enviornment did a lot for allowing these companies to move work overseas. If you do, then I suggest you realign yourself with who the unions are supporting.

The UAW supports poor workmanship/quality, over-paid Labor and higher prices to the consumer.

Why do you think Mercedes Benz built thier plant in Alabama, Nissan in Mississippi, Toyota in Arkansas? While GM closed their plant in Louisiana?

The auto mfg poised to win in the future are in the Right To Work states!

Last time I looked, those plants in those right to work states were organized with union workers. Must be a reason for that too.

Buzz
02-06-2012, 12:34 PM
Problem is the fact that we do not have Free Trade here is the USA. We may attempt to compete with other countries but because of all the regs and cost of labor, we have to compete with one arm tied behind our back and our legs severed at the knees!

Yes. It is a damn shame that some Americans believe in safe work places, clean water, clean air, and a living wage.

Too bad we can't dump waste on the ground or down the drain and house workers who are paid slave like wages in dormitories like the Chinese do. We would be very competitive if we could...

I long for the days when you could literally walk across Lake Erie and the paint on your car got removed by acid rain!

Hang the bass tards who passed those regulations...

road kill
02-06-2012, 12:40 PM
Yes. It is a damn shame that some Americans believe in safe work places, clean water, clean air, and a living wage.

Too bad we can't dump waste on the ground or down the drain and house workers who are paid slave like wages in dormitories like the Chinese do. We would be very competitive if we could...

I long for the days when you could literally walk across Lake Erie and the paint on your car got removed by acid rain!

Hang the bass tards who passed those regulations...
Hmmmmmm.....interesting logic.


So, here in Wisconsin, now that the bargaining rights of the Stae Union is gone are you assuming the state jobs will be exposed to these dastardly dangerous situations?

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You gonna be here all week???:D


RK

Buzz
02-06-2012, 12:54 PM
Hmmmmmm.....interesting logic.


So, here in Wisconsin, now that the bargaining rights of the Stae Union is gone are you assuming the state jobs will be exposed to these dastardly dangerous situations?

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You gonna be here all week???:D


RK

I was responding to Franco's comment. I didn't say anything about Wisconsin and neither did he in his comment...

road kill
02-06-2012, 01:28 PM
I was responding to Franco's comment. I didn't say anything about Wisconsin and neither did he in his comment...
You were speaking about regulations on industry.

Not referencing facts, but trying to trump up a non existant scenario.
For an example, when could one "literally walk across lake Erie???":rolleyes:

I simply pointed out, using facts, that your scenarios don't hold water.

But then, you already know that!!:D

However, if you meant something entirely different, my apologies for not knowing that.


RK

Franco
02-06-2012, 01:42 PM
Yes. It is a damn shame that some Americans believe in safe work places, clean water, clean air, and a living wage.

Too bad we can't dump waste on the ground or down the drain and house workers who are paid slave like wages in dormitories like the Chinese do. We would be very competitive if we could...

I long for the days when you could literally walk across Lake Erie and the paint on your car got removed by acid rain!

Hang the bass tards who passed those regulations...

What does having a competitve workforce have to do with a safe workplace or clean air? Apples to oranges.

Living wage? I would say for the quality of their work, their educational level combined with all their benefits and pensions that they are grossly overpaid thus rendering the car mfg industry to the government teat for survival.

Buzz
02-06-2012, 02:28 PM
Living wage? I would say for the quality of their work, their educational level combined with all their benefits and pensions that they are grossly overpaid thus rendering the car mfg industry to the government teat for survival.


Sounds a lot like class envy to me... :p

road kill
02-06-2012, 02:50 PM
I am still kinda interested how we could "literally walk across lake Erie???"

Having been stationed in Ashtubula in the 70's, I know it didn't happen then when I was there.

Or do you mean because it was frozen?;-)

Or, or you angry with me for calling Bravo Sierra??

I realize I don't articulate well, but I am still interested in an answer.:rolleyes:


RK

road kill
02-06-2012, 02:56 PM
I'm not saying that unions and their leadership have not abused their power at times. As have the company their members work for, but all in all, the unions help protect their members jobs. See we can't count on government to help, because dollars from corporations bought and paid for the ablity to take these jobs overseas. This same free trade brought unfair competition, too. So I ask you, do you think the polices regarding trade and the tax enviornment did a lot for allowing these companies to move work overseas. If you do, then I suggest you realign yourself with who the unions are supporting.

The UAW supports poor workmanship/quality, over-paid Labor and higher prices to the consumer.

Why do you think Mercedes Benz built thier plant in Alabama, Nissan in Mississippi, Toyota in Arkansas? While GM closed their plant in Louisiana?

The auto mfg poised to win in the future are in the Right To Work states!

Does anyone know who John Patterson is?

He once said " Industry is cheap. It is laziness that costs."

RK

LokiMeister
02-06-2012, 03:12 PM
(BTW, FWIW, even if ALL U.S. citizens were taxed 100% of their income, it would still not be enough to BALANCE the Federal Budget! You won't see that published in the Democratically infested MSM. And you noticed I mentioned this is just to BALANCE our budget...AND NOTHING IS BEING DONE TO REDUCE THE DEBT)
UB

Not sure where you get this but Fed Budget is what $3.7 trillion? In 2010, US incomes were $12 trillion. Check out the link below.

http://bber.unm.edu/econ/us-tpi.htm

road kill
02-06-2012, 03:19 PM
Not sure where you get this but Fed Budget is what $3.7 trillion? In 2010, US incomes were $12 trillion. Check out the link below.

http://bber.unm.edu/econ/us-tpi.htm
Well, if the Federal Gov't. had $12 trillion, what do you think they would do??

My guess is spend $13 trillion!!;-)
(at least)


RK

charly_t
02-06-2012, 03:30 PM
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Politics/Default.aspx?id=1529098

Some might find this interesting. Note one poster says that Ron P. has been doing this for a long while. Every penney counts people.

Franco
02-06-2012, 03:56 PM
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Politics/Default.aspx?id=1529098

Some might find this interesting. Note one poster says that Ron P. has been doing this for a long while. Every penney counts people.

Want to talk about a real American Patriot, RP has delivered several hundred babies at his OBGYN practice in Texas to medicade mothers and has yet to bill the Feds for the first baby!

Marvin S
02-06-2012, 08:37 PM
If you don't care about your own economic future enough to accept a little pain, don't expect the person trying to get your vote to care beyond a sound bite. Carol on another thread talked of economic reality, live where you want to & learn to get by with what comes in :o. What you have to be conscious of is your own family preparing themselves to cope. Not everyone can be born with the silver spoon as Chelsea has apparently been. A paying gig on a major MSM outlet (her performance reminded me of Carolyn Kennedy :() & a directorship that pays 300K a year. There are people out there that are qualified for those jobs but they will go more & more to those with the right connections. Such as the retiring big shots from government.

Computerization has caused some of this - went to get a Quit Claim deed @ the Auditor's office, hand her the number, she pulls it up on the screen, runs a copy & says pay the lady over there. Less than 2 minutes where in the old days it would have been 15-30 minutes in an efficient office. A BA degree in many disciplines is barely worth the paper it's printed on, the only one profiting from that transaction is the Higher? Ed folks.

When BHO can stiff the bondholders & Bernanke can ZIRP the old folks that made this country what it is there is something fundamentally wrong. Don't expect it to be corrected overnight, if in fact there is enough talent willing to do that thankless task. It's not something I would want to undertake. We will just live within the ground rules, watch our P's & Q's stay diversified & see where that takes us. If you had a stock account regardless of who runs it that didn't do in the 10% area between Jan 1 & Feb 3, you might want to look into that.

menmon
02-07-2012, 10:19 AM
If you don't care about your own economic future enough to accept a little pain, don't expect the person trying to get your vote to care beyond a sound bite. Carol on another thread talked of economic reality, live where you want to & learn to get by with what comes in :o. What you have to be conscious of is your own family preparing themselves to cope. Not everyone can be born with the silver spoon as Chelsea has apparently been. A paying gig on a major MSM outlet (her performance reminded me of Carolyn Kennedy :() & a directorship that pays 300K a year. There are people out there that are qualified for those jobs but they will go more & more to those with the right connections. Such as the retiring big shots from government.

Computerization has caused some of this - went to get a Quit Claim deed @ the Auditor's office, hand her the number, she pulls it up on the screen, runs a copy & says pay the lady over there. Less than 2 minutes where in the old days it would have been 15-30 minutes in an efficient office. A BA degree in many disciplines is barely worth the paper it's printed on, the only one profiting from that transaction is the Higher? Ed folks.

When BHO can stiff the bondholders & Bernanke can ZIRP the old folks that made this country what it is there is something fundamentally wrong. Don't expect it to be corrected overnight, if in fact there is enough talent willing to do that thankless task. It's not something I would want to undertake. We will just live within the ground rules, watch our P's & Q's stay diversified & see where that takes us. If you had a stock account regardless of who runs it that didn't do in the 10% area between Jan 1 & Feb 3, you might want to look into that.

I have jobs - wage 1 bowl rice 2 times a day. Housing - no water, sewage, heat or cooling provided

See we have to be competive so we can make more for less and buy things with our profit...and our workers support the rice industry;)

Obviously others think she is worth it too:D

road kill
02-07-2012, 11:08 AM
I am still kinda interested how we could "literally walk across lake Erie???"

Having been stationed in Ashtubula in the 70's, I know it didn't happen then when I was there.

Or do you mean because it was frozen?;-)

Or, or you angry with me for calling Bravo Sierra??

I realize I don't articulate well, but I am still interested in an answer.:rolleyes:


RK

Hey Buzz,

Is this lake Erie???

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u59/mirstnkim/obama_walking_on_water.jpg

Now I understand...........:D



RK