PDA

View Full Version : Another bad choice ...



Gerry Clinchy
02-29-2012, 10:20 PM
By MATTHEW MOSK, ABC News (@mattmosk)
Feb. 29, 2012

Another recipient of Energy Department loan funds has run into financial trouble.

Colorado-based Abound Solar announced this week it has been forced to lay off 180 of its 400 workers as it tries to retool to produce a more efficient type of solar panel in order to keep a technological edge on Chinese manufacturers who are flooding the market with less expensive models. Abound received approval in 2010 for a $400 million government loan.

"As you know the solar market has been extremely difficult for all manufacturers," said Craig Witsoe, the CEO of Abound Solar, in an interview with ABC News on Wednesday. "To continue to make the panel we make today, to have to sell it below cost, it's a tough environment to operate in."

Nate_C
02-29-2012, 10:55 PM
I don't agree with giving loans to companies like this at all. Too much opportunity for corruption. However, we do need to push alternative energy. I feel strongly that the government should fund research at non-profit research facilities like university with the caveat that they have stake in the patent and that the technology can only be licensed to US based companies.
The conservatives have taken this odd hard-line against these types of investments and seem to mock alternative energy.
The other Day I was listening to Beck rip on electric cars for an hour. Not the subsidies but the cars? I would like to say that the Reps are just in the pockets of the oil companies but I don't even think it is that logical. Unfortunately I think it is just a crazy us against them if the dems like it we hate it thing stance.
The reality is that oil is a limited resource. Drilling in the gulf or the Keystone pipeline isn't going to change that. It is going to keep going up. PS you are crazy to think that the Keystone pipeline is going to lessen gas prices. The landlocked Canadian oil fields want to build a pipeline to the Texas gulf. Why would they do that? To export it so they can get more for it. No one seems to realize that except the oil companies. They know they only have another 50 years or so and they want to drag that out as long as possible and maximize their profits while doing it. It isn't a conspiracy theory it is just logical business.

Gerry Clinchy
03-01-2012, 10:07 AM
Nate, I would agree with you that we have to develop alternate energy sources. Your plan of funding research may be one that would be more advisable than giving $ away in "crony capitalism".

However, the economy must be healthy to provide the govt with such funds. Energy costs are a LARGE factor in fueling the economy. Using oil & natural gas to keep the economy chugging while the technology for efficient use of alternative energy sources is developed is an important factor.

No one voice (Rush, or others) really represents the thoughts of all fiscal conservatives.

We also forget that the speculators play a large role in energy prices. Wonder if Goldman Sachs (and others) has their hands in that pot, too. I think that history has shown that speculators become less "optimistic" when there is news about increasing supply ... since the speculators make their money on relatively short-term projections.

Eric Johnson
03-01-2012, 10:55 AM
If they are simply going to thow money away, why not do it in the form of tax breaks to consumers that have installed the product? That will generate the demand for the product.

Eric

menmon
03-01-2012, 11:12 AM
Government funding research in my opinion is a good use of our funds, whether they do it with tax credit, loans and grants.

People are going to cheat the government...it is a way of life.

Let's go back in history a minute and look at the railroad and how men took advantage of the furthering of that technology. They did it with the automobile, airplane, etc.

The problem with financing new technology is that it is unproven and risky. Couple expensive and it never gets off the ground. Therefore, the government takes the risk and furthers technology. NASA is a perfect example where many see this as a waste of dollars and in the purest form of convervatism it is, but lets look at the countless new technology we have gotten from those wasted dollars.

Just remember it is a political year so every chance the opposing side will throw your failures in you face. I bet they are not mentioning the sucesses;-)

Marvin S
03-01-2012, 11:25 AM
I bet they are not mentioning the successes;-)

Would you like to :-P?

M&K's Retrievers
03-01-2012, 11:34 AM
....
Just remember it is a political year so every chance the opposing side will throw your failures in you face. I bet they are not mentioning the sucesses;-)

And those would be? Remember, you must have 10 characters for a post. :rolleyes:

paul young
03-01-2012, 01:21 PM
Chrysler and GM are still in business.

put your shoes back on, Mike. there are more characters than that.....-Paul

M&K's Retrievers
03-01-2012, 01:34 PM
Chrysler and GM are still in business.

put your shoes back on, Mike. there are more characters than that.....-Paul

Should they be??

mngundog
03-01-2012, 02:53 PM
Chrysler and GM are still in business.

put your shoes back on, Mike. there are more characters than that.....-Paul
Fiat taking over Chrysler is a success story? GM going bankrupt only to be given Billions of taxpayers money is a success story? Wow if that is the new standard for success, I guess lowering the flags for Whitney wasn't as dumb as I had thought.

Gerry Clinchy
03-01-2012, 03:22 PM
The problem with financing new technology is that it is unproven and risky.

And Bill Gates got his funding where?

Fact is that if innovators can't depend on handouts they are more likely to work "on a shoestring".

Whether by rebates on products or funding research, the govt needs the revenue to provide those incentives. If energy costs suffocate the economy, those tax revenues will not materialize.

The balance, however we achieve it, is to have a healthy economy; using the available energy sources as we develop the alternatives for the future.

Buzz
03-01-2012, 03:50 PM
And Bill Gates got his funding where?

Fact is that if innovators can't depend on handouts they are more likely to work "on a shoestring".

Whether by rebates on products or funding research, the govt needs the revenue to provide those incentives. If energy costs suffocate the economy, those tax revenues will not materialize.

The balance, however we achieve it, is to have a healthy economy; using the available energy sources as we develop the alternatives for the future.


I know! Why don't we give the job creators more tax breaks! That'll increase revenue!

duckheads
03-01-2012, 03:53 PM
I know! Why don't we give the job creators more tax breaks! That'll increase revenue!


Better yet why don't we put more restrictions, burdens, and raise taxes on the job creators! That'll increase revenue!

Gerry Clinchy
03-01-2012, 03:57 PM
I know! Why don't we give the job creators more tax breaks! That'll increase revenue!
I don't think Bill Gates got any of those either.

Marvin S
03-01-2012, 09:39 PM
I don't think Bill Gates got any of those either.

Gates, Allen, Ballmer, Bezos - 4 of the top 20 wealthiest people in the US shared in over $132 million in Sales Tax breaks form the state while building the campuses for their enterprises. Breaks that even public entities do not get. They are all good at plying the public teat for goodies.

While I admire Gates for his philantrophy & the directions, we'd like to be able to do the same thing but the government knows best how to spend our charitable dollars :mad:.

Gerry Clinchy
03-01-2012, 10:32 PM
Gates, Allen, Ballmer, Bezos - 4 of the top 20 wealthiest people in the US shared in over $132 million in Sales Tax breaks form the state while building the campuses for their enterprises. Breaks that even public entities do not get. They are all good at plying the public teat for goodies.

While I admire Gates for his philantrophy & the directions, we'd like to be able to do the same thing but the government knows best how to spend our charitable dollars :mad:.

Was referencing how they got started in their innovative enterprises.

Gerry Clinchy
03-02-2012, 05:34 PM
RIP Chevy Volt.



General Motors has told 1,300 employees at its Detroit Hamtramck that they will be temporarily laid off for five weeks as the company halts production of the Chevrolet Volt and its European counterpart, the Opel Ampera.

“Even with sales up in February over January, we are still seeking to align our production with demand,” said GM spokesman Chris Lee.




GM blamed the lack of sales in January on “exaggerated” media reports and the federal government's investigation into Volt batteries catching fire, which officially began in November and ended Jan. 21.

GM sold 7,671 Volts in 2011, well below GM CEO and chairman Dan Akerson's announced target of 10,000.


Still no one has answered my question, from where do we get the energy to produce the electricity that we plug these cars into? Do we save on gasoline to simply pay the same amount (or more?) for the energy used by the power plants that produce the electricity?

In my semi-rural area, there is no public transportation for going to work. Most people will travel 15 to 20 miles each way to work (some further). A lot of my neighbors burn wood, coal, and wood pellets for some, or all, of their heating needs. Even so, most electric bills run about $60 to $70/mo for just basic electric needs.

Gerry Clinchy
03-03-2012, 08:22 PM
Reported by AP:



WILMINGTON, Del. – A Delaware judge has approved close to $370,000 in bonuses for certain employees of Solyndra LLC, a solar panel manufacturer that received a half-billion dollar loan from the federal government before declaring bankruptcy.


Solyndra, based in Fremont, Calif., wanted to award bonuses of up to $500,000 to as many as 21 employees but scaled back its request after discussions with its official creditors committee.


The judge approved the revised bonus request following a hearing Wednesday.
Solyndra, which has failed to find a buyer to operate the company as a going concern, says it needs to retain key employees with the expertise needed for an orderly liquidation of its remaining assets. Cut me a break on this reason!


Attorneys for former Solyndra workers laid off just before the bankruptcy objected to the proposed bonuses.

Hunter Burke
04-04-2012, 10:22 PM
Just trying to get my posts in.

JDogger
04-04-2012, 11:10 PM
Just trying to get my posts in.

OK HB. What did you want to say so badly? JD

coachmo
04-05-2012, 10:25 AM
Gerry,
Haven't you noticed by now that many on here will avoid answering questions instead they will insert their own questions or change the topic!!! It's kinda like bait and switch!!

ARay11
04-05-2012, 10:43 AM
Gates, Allen, Ballmer, Bezos - 4 of the top 20 wealthiest people in the US shared in over $132 million in Sales Tax breaks form the state while building the campuses for their enterprises. Breaks that even public entities do not get. They are all good at plying the public teat for goodies.

While I admire Gates for his philantrophy & the directions, we'd like to be able to do the same thing but the government knows best how to spend our charitable dollars :mad:.

How many folks do these campuses employ? And where would they be employed had those places not been built?

HPL
04-05-2012, 10:49 AM
RIP Chevy Volt.





Still no one has answered my question, from where do we get the energy to produce the electricity that we plug these cars into? Do we save on gasoline to simply pay the same amount (or more?) for the energy used by the power plants that produce the electricity?

In my semi-rural area, there is no public transportation for going to work. Most people will travel 15 to 20 miles each way to work (some further). A lot of my neighbors burn wood, coal, and wood pellets for some, or all, of their heating needs. Even so, most electric bills run about $60 to $70/mo for just basic electric needs.
My choice would be for natural gas and nuclear power plants to create the electricity to charge the batteries for the electric cars while we work on the development of hydrogen fueled cars. Again, creating hydrogen also takes a great deal of electrical power, so we need to start building those new power plants.

Gerry Clinchy
04-05-2012, 11:25 AM
Gerry,
Haven't you noticed by now that many on here will avoid answering questions instead they will insert their own questions or change the topic!!! It's kinda like bait and switch!!
Failing to answer where the electricity is to come from, and how much it will cost is failure to plan!

The power plants that make that electricity run on oil, gas, coal and nuclear power. The energy policy so far is trying to stifle oil and coal. Looks like gas will be next due to the controversy over fracking. And nuclear is out of favor as well since the incident in Japan. So ... where will the electricity come from, and what will it cost?

It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the electricity has to come from somewhere and at some cost. When will it occur to someone to connect the energy policies to the cost of that electricity?

Failure to have a better plan than has been demonstrated so far is what makes people call the energy policies "pie in the sky". Failure to plan = planning to fail.

Marvin S
04-05-2012, 11:48 AM
A)How many folks do these campuses employ? B) And where would they be employed had those places not been built?

A) No more or no less than they would if the business was paying it's fair share of the tax burden, which the business is constantly promoting B) business goes where the customer & qualified employees exist, so they would have been built.

Buzz
04-05-2012, 01:55 PM
By MATTHEW MOSK, ABC News (@mattmosk)
Feb. 29, 2012

Another recipient of Energy Department loan funds has run into financial trouble.

Colorado-based Abound Solar announced this week it has been forced to lay off 180 of its 400 workers as it tries to retool to produce a more efficient type of solar panel in order to keep a technological edge on Chinese manufacturers who are flooding the market with less expensive models. Abound received approval in 2010 for a $400 million government loan.

"As you know the solar market has been extremely difficult for all manufacturers," said Craig Witsoe, the CEO of Abound Solar, in an interview with ABC News on Wednesday. "To continue to make the panel we make today, to have to sell it below cost, it's a tough environment to operate in."

If you want to get some hint of what has been happening to the US Solar Industry, click on the link below and note what Van Jones says. Yes, that dreaded commie, Van Jones, the guy who makes Glenn Beck's head explode.

http://adrianvance.blogspot.com/2012/04/van-jones.html

Instead of being pissed at the Chinese for destroying an industry in it's infancy so they can dominate the world market in Solar, we instead beat the president over the head. Very patriotic, hate our president, love the Chinese...

I have not seen a comment from one person on this thread that has one single clue about the energy business...

NOTE: I am not necessarily in favor of crony capitalism. The main reason is, I am in the position to compete against others in my line of business who have received government grants, and I feel that it amounts to unfair competition... It is a pretty good kick in the shorts to see competitors who have received many millions from the Feds.

ARay11
04-05-2012, 03:24 PM
A) No more or no less than they would if the business was paying it's fair share of the tax burden, which the business is constantly promoting B) business goes where the customer & qualified employees exist, so they would have been built.



The US already has what some say is the highest corporate tax rate of any country. If those breaks did not exist.... yes, those campuses would have been built... but would they be here?.... yes, folks would have jobs...but would they work here? Customers and qualified employees are global and no longer drive "where" a business is built. What other incentive could be provided to encourage a business to build here?

I would be interested to see the tax and revenue generated by those 4 companies. It should far outweigh the initial $33m investment.

mngundog
04-05-2012, 04:08 PM
The US already has what some say is the highest corporate tax rate of any country. If those breaks did not exist.... yes, those campuses would have been built... but would they be here?.... yes, folks would have jobs...but would they work here? Customers and qualified employees are global and no longer drive "where" a business is built. What other incentive could be provided to encourage a business to build here?

I would be interested to see the tax and revenue generated by those 4 companies. It should far outweigh the initial $33m investment.
I see GE got hit hard by those giant corporate taxes this year. :D

Gerry Clinchy
04-05-2012, 05:14 PM
If you want to get some hint of what has been happening to the US Solar Industry, click on the link below and note what Van Jones says. Yes, that dreaded commie, Van Jones, the guy who makes Glenn Beck's head explode.

http://adrianvance.blogspot.com/2012/04/van-jones.html

Instead of being pissed at the Chinese for destroying an industry in it's infancy so they can dominate the world market in Solar, we instead beat the president over the head. Very patriotic, hate our president, love the Chinese...

I have not seen a comment from one person on this thread that has one single clue about the energy business...

NOTE: I am not necessarily in favor of crony capitalism. The main reason is, I am in the position to compete against others in my line of business who have received government grants, and I feel that it amounts to unfair competition... It is a pretty good kick in the shorts to see competitors who have received many millions from the Feds.


I read the article. Yup, we should be dissed that the Chinese stuck it to us with their cheap solar panels (by govt subsidizing the industry)... and we should have seen that coming. It wasn't like it was a secret that the Chinese were producing cheap solar panels.

So, it still is our fault (the people who made the loan) that they made a poor decision! They are rightfully deserving of the criticism. Not the fault of the Chinese that we (guys who gave the loan) did something dumb. Van Jones avoids the issue of somebody doing something dumb ... Why is it "unpatriotic" to point out dumb when it becomes obvious?

The Chinese must think we are real jerks ... maybe we are? Being dissed is not enough ... what should we do about it?

Again ... poor planning of energy policy to wipe out your present, proven sources while you are still developing the alternatives. I don't think that would be a premise that would be unique to the "energy business", or another business.

If the Chinese can make these panels so cheaply, and they are of comparable quality to what we would make ... then we probably should buy them and build our solar industry around them, until we come up with something better than their product.

How many Chinese panels could we have bought to put up solar farms with the $ given to Solyndra? Let the energy companies building those farms use part of their profits to come up with innovation of a better panel. Meanwhile, use the cheap Chinese panels to keep the cost of solar-generated electricity more reasonable. Meanwhile, we ALSO should be trying to develop cost-effective panels ourselves, or we'll eventually be energy dependent on the Chinese instead of the sheiks.

Should our govt subsidize an industry (like solar, or any other) as China is doing? I think not. Not unless we're happy to lower our standard of living to that of the Chinese worker. Where does the govt (ours or Chinese) get the $ to subsidize an industry? From some individual worker's labor. So, if the Chinese govt decides to subsidize solar energy, the $ to do so could be coming from the sweat of the laborers who are mining those rare earth minerals (that we don't want to mine here because it's nasty stuff). Or maybe the Chinese govt is taking a nice cut of the profit from selling the solar panels, and not paying the workers as much as a result?

When the Chinese workforce figures this out, there might be another "cultural revolution" in China.

ARay11
04-05-2012, 05:16 PM
I see GE got hit hard by those giant corporate taxes this year. :D

And generated billions in payroll.
Probably still worth the trade off.

mngundog
04-05-2012, 05:55 PM
And generated billions in payroll.
Probably still worth the trade off.

So if you have a billion dollar payroll you should be exempt from taxes? :confused:

Marvin S
04-05-2012, 06:10 PM
The US already has what some say is the highest corporate tax rate of any country. If those breaks did not exist.... yes, those campuses would have been built... but would they be here?.... yes, folks would have jobs...but would they work here? Customers and qualified employees are global and no longer drive "where" a business is built. What other incentive could be provided to encourage a business to build here?

I would be interested to see the tax and revenue generated by those 4 companies. It should far outweigh the initial $33m investment.

The company headed by the head of the POTUS's committee on competition paid $0 in fed taxes as a company - if you look at the OP that started this the number is about 4 times as big - if we're going to have a discussion try just a little harder :-P - it's about state taxes - which are also a burden

Walden7272
04-05-2012, 10:21 PM
Natural gas is by far the way to go in this country. Natural gas burns cleaner and more efficiently than oil. Also, we are the Saudi Arabia of natural gas and should be funding this research over and above anything else, period. With the proven fields that we currently have, we have enough natural gas to sustain us for the next 100 years at a minimum. And that is just off the fields we have now. Remember, many of the fields we are exploring have just recently started producing relative to older fields and oil producing areas.

Chevy just recently came out with a 1500 series truck that you can run both LNG and unleaded. Did this make huge headlines? Hell no it didnt because god forbid it wasnt a solar powered truck or a truck powered by mice. The LNG gets about the same gas mileage as a normal engine but costs roughly a $1.35/ gallon. If we put money into this energy type and got away from this pipe dream (at this time) of everything running on solar power, wind power or an electric car WHICH BY THE WAY IS POWERED BY BURNING COAL TO MAKE THE ELECTRICITY! We would be further ahead, create more jobs and actually do something about being dependent on foreign oil.

Mark my words, the next big energy boom will be natural gas. Coal is going the way of the horse drawn buggy and oil will not sustain us forever. In roughly 3 years natural gas will be what all the major power plants are run on. If you work in the coal industry I am sorry, you can thank the good 'ole EPA for that one. The EPA has made it it's job to run the coal industry into the ground. Also, if I hear one more time that we only have 50 years of oil left in the world I am going to puke, that is simply not true and you are very misinformed. That is a ploy used by the left to yet again scare people. But please, by all means we should keep pumping billions into solar and wind power BS that is not feasible and turn our noses from a source of power that cold put thousands upon thousands to work, help the economy, drive innovation and give a desperately needed jolt to a stagnant economy.

Gerry Clinchy
04-05-2012, 10:34 PM
I'm sure there is a place for solar and wind in the picture, but it makes you wonder why the great "planners" are so good at overlooking the obvious, doesn't it.

Walden7272, they are now converting diesels to CNG ... UPS has order a bunch of them. The price on the engines has come down to a range where the price of the CNG can quickly pay for the engine. There are several states (including PA) that have committed to building the network of fueling stations needed for the trucks. The infrastructure will then be there to handle cars.

JDogger
04-05-2012, 11:35 PM
I'm sure there is a place for solar and wind in the picture, but it makes you wonder why the great "planners" are so good at overlooking the obvious, doesn't it.

Walden7272, they are now converting diesels to CNG ... UPS has order a bunch of them. The price on the engines has come down to a range where the price of the CNG can quickly pay for the engine. There are several states (including PA) that have committed to building the network of fueling stations needed for the trucks. The infrastructure will then be there to handle cars.

NG does not come out of the ground ready to use. There are many variables that go into a well being brought on-line or not. Many wells are tested and capped never to be opened. Like oil, NG is a finite resource, not renewable like wind or solar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-gas_processing

The efforts being made at renewable, sustainable energy sources, I believe to be worthwhile. I am a utility shareholder here in NM, And I support fully the development of wind and solar energy.

Surprise,surprise...Huh? JD

Walden7272
04-05-2012, 11:59 PM
Jdogger, you seriously didn't just post that many NG wells are tested, capped and never opened did you? Please tell me you didn't say that because that is totally incorrect. I work in this industry and I can tell you that statement is very inaccurate. It is true that they are drilling them and not producing them AT THIS TIME because if you are then that statement is correct. They are not doing this because the well is not producing or they drilled a "dry hole" they are doing this because the price of NG is so low that they could not recoup the cost that it took to drill the well with the current market prices. I have seen more wells drilled that are not being produced or slowly being put into production simply for that reason. Companies are drilling wells because they have to hold leases and if they don't drill them they will loose the lease and the money they utilized for the drilling rights. But I assure you that the way you posted that statement and the way it read is inaccurate.

While I agree that there is a place for renewable energy sources and that it needs to be further developed, the technology is not there yet to make it the go to energy source AT THIS TIME. I am not saying it won't be the future, I am simply saying the future is not quite here yet. In the mean time we need to work to sustain ourselves on the energy sources that are abundant to us. We have the means to become a energy independent country in a very short amount of time if our "leaders", both democrate and republican, would pull their heads out of their sizable asses.

Walden7272
04-06-2012, 12:08 AM
Gerry, you are right about the LNG stations. I have listened into a couple companies share holder conference calls and they mention just this. The goal/vision is to have 1000+ LNG stations nation wide in the next 5-10 years. While this is a step in the right direction, there will need to be more infrastructure put in place to make this feasible. Until the general population can be secure in the fact that they will have a place to fill up, it won't take off. But, it isnt like when the model T came out there was a Chevron on every corner.

In Texas, many of the big cities (Dallas, San Antonio, Houston) have started converting all their public transportation vehicles, sanitation vehicles and government vehicles to LNG.

Matt McKenzie
04-06-2012, 06:23 AM
If you want to get some hint of what has been happening to the US Solar Industry, click on the link below and note what Van Jones says. Yes, that dreaded commie, Van Jones, the guy who makes Glenn Beck's head explode.

http://adrianvance.blogspot.com/2012/04/van-jones.html

Instead of being pissed at the Chinese for destroying an industry in it's infancy so they can dominate the world market in Solar, we instead beat the president over the head. Very patriotic, hate our president, love the Chinese...

I have not seen a comment from one person on this thread that has one single clue about the energy business...

NOTE: I am not necessarily in favor of crony capitalism. The main reason is, I am in the position to compete against others in my line of business who have received government grants, and I feel that it amounts to unfair competition... It is a pretty good kick in the shorts to see competitors who have received many millions from the Feds.

No reason to be "pissed" at the Chinese. They produced a product at less cost than we can. That's why Apple builds products in China. Would it make sense for the Fed to provide billions in loan guarantees to companies like Apple to build their products here in the U.S. so that we could pay more for them? Of course not.
That's the whole problem with this "investment in green jobs" BS. The Fed shouldn't be picking and chosing the winners and losers in the free market. If there's a viable market for solar panels, somebody will fill it. In this case, it looks like the Chicoms beat us to the punch. OK. But we're wasting tax dollars trying to create markets that don't exist (see Chevy Volt). Central planning doesn't work, but some folks just have to keep trying it. There are universities and private companies all over this country researching renewable energy sources. Over time, some of these efforts will pay off. Trying to force the issue by spending our tax dollars (and all the money we're borrowing from countries like China, since we're spending more than we're taking in) is so obviously inefficient and ineffective that even a child should be able to see it. Unfortunately, like Hitler said, "How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think".

Matt McKenzie
04-06-2012, 06:50 AM
If you want to get some hint of what has been happening to the US Solar Industry, click on the link below and note what Van Jones says. Yes, that dreaded commie, Van Jones, the guy who makes Glenn Beck's head explode.

http://adrianvance.blogspot.com/2012/04/van-jones.html

Instead of being pissed at the Chinese for destroying an industry in it's infancy so they can dominate the world market in Solar, we instead beat the president over the head. Very patriotic, hate our president, love the Chinese...

I have not seen a comment from one person on this thread that has one single clue about the energy business...

NOTE: I am not necessarily in favor of crony capitalism. The main reason is, I am in the position to compete against others in my line of business who have received government grants, and I feel that it amounts to unfair competition... It is a pretty good kick in the shorts to see competitors who have received many millions from the Feds.

And for some more political insight from Van Jones:

http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/van-jones-book-tea-party-cheap-patriotism/466301

ARay11
04-06-2012, 09:26 AM
So if you have a billion dollar payroll you should be exempt from taxes? :confused:


I never said exempt. Should they receive a break? yep.

If your state doesnt hand out a break to businesses, another one will.
If our country doesnt give business a tax break, another one will.

Buzz
04-06-2012, 09:43 AM
Mark my words, the next big energy boom will be natural gas. Coal is going the way of the horse drawn buggy and oil will not sustain us forever. In roughly 3 years natural gas will be what all the major power plants are run on. If you work in the coal industry I am sorry, you can thank the good 'ole EPA for that one. The EPA has made it it's job to run the coal industry into the ground. Also, if I hear one more time that we only have 50 years of oil left in the world I am going to puke, that is simply not true and you are very misinformed. That is a ploy used by the left to yet again scare people. But please, by all means we should keep pumping billions into solar and wind power BS that is not feasible and turn our noses from a source of power that cold put thousands upon thousands to work, help the economy, drive innovation and give a desperately needed jolt to a stagnant economy.

And still, I have yet to see any comments on here from anyone who really knows anything about the electrical energy business. The statement in bold almost knocked me off my chair. Go see what the EIA projects at the link below. It does not appear that they see coal going away anytime soon.


http://www.eia.gov/oiaf/aeo/tablebrowser/#release=EARLY2012&subject=0-EARLY2012&table=9-EARLY2012&region=0-0&cases=full2011-d020911a,early2012-d121011b

Coal will stay steady. Growth areas will be combined cycle (NG combustion turbine & steam), combustion turbine (diesel), and to a smaller extent distributed generation (natural gas).

road kill
04-06-2012, 09:45 AM
NG does not come out of the ground ready to use. There are many variables that go into a well being brought on-line or not. Many wells are tested and capped never to be opened. Like oil, NG is a finite resource, not renewable like wind or solar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-gas_processing

The efforts being made at renewable, sustainable energy sources, I believe to be worthwhile. I am a utility shareholder here in NM, And I support fully the development of wind and solar energy.

Surprise,surprise...Huh? JD

Interesting.....anyone know what General Electric paid in corporate taxes in 2010??
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Does anyone know who the CEO of GE is??
And what additional position does he currently hold??

Oh, and who is the leading domestic producer of "wind mills" in the USA??
http://knol.google.com/k/wind-turbines/top-10-world-s-largest-wind-turbine/25fjwptfb1ke6/3#


Rhetorical questions, we all know Jeffry Immelt is the CEO of GE which paid $00000 in corporate taxes.
Mr. Immelt now holds the position of ;



Obama administrationIn February 2009, Immelt was appointed as a member to the President's Economic Recovery Advisory Board to provide the president and his administration with advice and counsel in fixing America's economic downturn.[13] When President Obama chose to put Jeffrey Immelt at the head of the Economic Advisory Board, he felt that Immelt had attributions in knowing what would help the global economy. Obama has reported that Immelt has emerged as one of his top economic advisors in regards to trying to rebuild America's economy.[14]

On January 21, 2011, President Obama announced Immelt's appointment as chairman of his outside panel of economic advisers, succeeding former Federal Reserve chairman Paul Volcker.[15] The New York Times reported that Obama's appointment of Immelt was "another strong signal that he intends to make the White House more business-friendly."[15] Immelt will retain his post at G.E. while becoming "chairman of the Council on Jobs and Competitiveness, a newly named panel that President Obama is creating by executive order."[15] Despite this, in July 2011 Immelt's General Electric announced that it is in the process of relocating its X-ray division from Wisconsin to China.[16][17] Immelt had previously referred to China as GE's "second home market".[18]



RK:D

road kill
04-06-2012, 09:49 AM
And still, I have yet to see any comments on here from anyone who really knows anything about the electrical energy business. The statement in bold almost knocked me off my chair. Go see what the EIA projects at the link below. It does not appear that they see coal going away anytime soon.


http://www.eia.gov/oiaf/aeo/tablebrowser/#release=EARLY2012&subject=0-EARLY2012&table=9-EARLY2012&region=0-0&cases=full2011-d020911a,early2012-d121011b

IMO...the answer to production of electrical power for consumer distribution is nuclear.
(not nuculer:rolleyes:)

I understand that is unpopular, but it is efficient and works well.
The plants that I toured were made by Westinghouse and GE.
Interesting, to say the least.

And yes Buzz, I have actually done infra-red surveys of 12 nuclear plants, Calloway (UE), Kewaunee (WEPCO-now sold) and NPPD and OPPD to name a few.
I have also surveyed several coal powered plants (messy).
Thanks for asking.:D


RK

Buzz
04-06-2012, 10:05 AM
Oh, and who is the leading domestic producer of "wind mills" in the USA??
http://knol.google.com/k/wind-turbines/top-10-world-s-largest-wind-turbine/25fjwptfb1ke6/3#


RK:D

So now you finally decided to weigh in here?

I looked at your list. I designed a 2.5 MW and a 5.0 MW generator to be used on a wind turbine for a company in the top 10. :cool:

Did you know that GE bought the wind generating unit from Enron?

Gerry Clinchy
04-06-2012, 10:06 AM
And for some more political insight from Van Jones:

http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/van-jones-book-tea-party-cheap-patriotism/466301

This guy (Van Jones) is flaked out

... the Occupy Wall Street protesters created a new identity that can include and unite the vast majority of Americans. Their simple slogan—“We Are the 99%!”—is now the rallying cry for everyone who is struggling against an economy that enriches the few at the expense of the many."


There is NO WAY that I would consider these people representative of the 99% (or myself)... people who destroy personal property, defecate in public, pour human excrement in public places. If Van Jones considers these vandals representative of himself, then it tells us a lot about Van Jones' character and common sense. He's devoid of both.

ARay11
04-06-2012, 10:09 AM
Interesting.....anyone know what General Electric paid in corporate taxes in 2010??
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all


RK:D

Looks like GE is working smarter not harder.
If only it were smarter to keep profits here....

Buzz
04-06-2012, 10:10 AM
No reason to be "pissed" at the Chinese. They produced a product at less cost than we can. That's why Apple builds products in China. Would it make sense for the Fed to provide billions in loan guarantees to companies like Apple to build their products here in the U.S. so that we could pay more for them? Of course not.
That's the whole problem with this "investment in green jobs" BS. The Fed shouldn't be picking and chosing the winners and losers in the free market. If there's a viable market for solar panels, somebody will fill it. In this case, it looks like the Chicoms beat us to the punch. OK. But we're wasting tax dollars trying to create markets that don't exist (see Chevy Volt). Central planning doesn't work, but some folks just have to keep trying it. There are universities and private companies all over this country researching renewable energy sources. Over time, some of these efforts will pay off. Trying to force the issue by spending our tax dollars (and all the money we're borrowing from countries like China, since we're spending more than we're taking in) is so obviously inefficient and ineffective that even a child should be able to see it. Unfortunately, like Hitler said, "How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think".


Apparently you consider a $2.4 billion dollar loan program in the USA to be crony capitalism, while a $30 billion GRANT PROGRAM by the Chinese to their solar industry THE FREE MARKET. :rolleyes:

Buzz
04-06-2012, 10:11 AM
This guy (Van Jones) is flaked out


There is NO WAY that I would consider these people representative of the 99% (or myself)... people who destroy personal property, defecate in public, pour human excrement in public places. If Van Jones considers these vandals representative of himself, then it tells us a lot about Van Jones' character and common sense. He's devoid of both.

Here we go... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::roll eyes:


This is a waste of time. I need to go back to doing somewhat that will put money in my pocket.

Gerry Clinchy
04-06-2012, 10:17 AM
Apparently you consider a $2.4 billion dollar loan program in the USA to be crony capitalism, while a $30 billion GRANT PROGRAM by the Chinese to their solar industry a FREE MARKET. :rolleyes:

Not a fair analogy ... we expect the Chinese govt to follow its principles of "central planning" rooted in its communist ideology.

I don't think any of us thinks that the Chinese govt's grant to their solar industry is "fair". Have they ever done so?

History seems to show that this approach doesn't work over the long haul. Sooner or later, the workforce figures that out.

Matt McKenzie
04-06-2012, 10:32 AM
Apparently you consider a $2.4 billion dollar loan program in the USA to be crony capitalism, while a $30 billion GRANT PROGRAM by the Chinese to their solar industry THE FREE MARKET. :rolleyes:

How did you deduce from my statement that I believe that the Fed should not pick winners and losers in the free market that I support grants to the Chinese? If you have some sort of brain infection that prevents you from understanding that I don't support the fed giving tax breaks to specific industries, giving guaranteed loans to specific companies or providing grants to other countries, please let me know so that I don't unfairly assume that you are intentionally misrepresenting my position. I don't know how I can be more clear.
I don't support our government providing preferential treatment for any company or any individual for the purpose of manipulating our behavior and purchasing votes. I'm for eleminating ALL tax deductions and radically simplifying the tax code.
Eliminate the deductions and the rates can be significantly lower and revenues significantly higher. I believe we need to lower corporate tax rates and greatly simplify the rules there, as well. My positions about most political issues are not particularly complicated or difficult to understand by anyone with a basic understanding of economics, history and world events. How some here can so grossly misunderstand me is baffling.

Gerry Clinchy
04-06-2012, 10:40 AM
NG does not come out of the ground ready to use. There are many variables that go into a well being brought on-line or not. Many wells are tested and capped never to be opened. Like oil, NG is a finite resource, not renewable like wind or solar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-gas_processing

The efforts being made at renewable, sustainable energy sources, I believe to be worthwhile. I am a utility shareholder here in NM, And I support fully the development of wind and solar energy.

Surprise,surprise...Huh? JD

JD, I actually think that you, Walden and I are pretty much on the same page. None of us would say there is no value in developing the potential of sun and wind technology. It's just a matter of sensible planning to make a transition from one set of energy sources to others.

I was without electricity for 4 days in October, along with thousands of other people in my area. Eliminating an energy source "cold turkey" is not pleasant at all. Making the cost of energy so high that it is unaffordable is basically doing the same thing for a large portion of the population. Of course, the upside of it is that we wouldn't be spending so much time on our computers :-)

road kill
04-06-2012, 10:45 AM
So now you finally decided to weigh in here?

I looked at your list. I designed a 2.5 MW and a 5.0 MW generator to be used on a wind turbine for a company in the top 10. :cool:

Did you know that GE bought the wind generating unit from Enron?
No I did not know that.

And I know I probably am alone on the nuclear issue.
Just my thoughts.
Although they are pretty scarey on the inside.
Reminded me of high school science projects!!;-)

RK

road kill
04-06-2012, 10:47 AM
Looks like GE is working smarter not harder.
If only it were smarter to keep profits here....

My point was that "crony-capitalism" is only evil when you are agin it!
When it is your buddy reapin' the benefits, well then.......


http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t324/fluffy651/horseofadifferentcolor.jpg


RK

Buzz
04-06-2012, 11:01 AM
How did you deduce from my statement that I believe that the Fed should not pick winners and losers in the free market that I support grants to the Chinese?

It was these comments that kinda set me off.

"If there's a viable market for solar panels, somebody will fill it. In this case, it looks like the Chicoms beat us to the punch."

It looks like you are saying that we simply screwed the pooch, while the Chinese were on the ball and simply beat us to the punch.

Buzz
04-06-2012, 11:05 AM
No I did not know that.

And I know I probably am alone on the nuclear issue.
Just my thoughts.
Although they are pretty scarey on the inside.
Reminded me of high school science projects!!;-)

RK


I have long been a supporter of nuclear. Back in the 80's while I was working on my power systems & controls in EE, I minored in nuclear engineering. I had offers to work at nuclear plants and my wife didn't want my dingle berries getting radiated, I'm not kidding. ;-) Working in the lab in a nuclear chemistry class was a little strange. Big piles of lead sheets with our experiments behind them, and still gamma rays & beta particles zooming though our bodies. It does give you the willies a little bit, even though you know a plane ride is probably worse...

road kill
04-06-2012, 11:16 AM
Here we go... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::roll eyes:


This is a waste of time. I need to go back to doing somewhat that will put money in my pocket.

And feed the poor and homeless!!:D


RK

road kill
04-06-2012, 11:20 AM
I have long been a supporter of nuclear. Back in the 80's while I was working on my power systems & controls in EE, I minored in nuclear engineering. I had offers to work at nuclear plants and my wife didn't want my dingle berries getting radiated, I'm not kidding. ;-) Working in the lab in a nuclear chemistry class was a little strange. Big piles of lead sheets with our experiments behind them, and still gamma rays & beta particles zooming though our bodies. It does give you the willies a little bit, even though you know a plane ride is probably worse...

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

I am certain my scooter rides are more dangerous!!!!

This is a true story.
I had just bought my first pair of Allen Edmonds shoes.
I went to one of the OPPD nukes to do training for an ifra-read camera (Agema) they had purchased from me.
They told me I had radioactive material on my shoes and would have to leave them.:(

I was devastated.
$200+ for shoes when I only made $150 a week!!;-)
It was their idea of a funny!!

Sick bastards.........


RK


(I still have those shoes)


RK

Walden7272
04-06-2012, 12:48 PM
Hey buzz, did you know that in that by 2015 new regulations come into play for power plants that burn coal to make electricity? FACT Also, there are new carbon dioxide emission rules that will block new coal-burning plants, FACT. On top of that, the goverment is encouraging natural gas because it is going to cost the companies more to retro fit their plant to keep burning coal then it would be to do a total switch over to burning natural gas, FACT. In the last 10 years there has been a decline in the total kilowatts produced by burning coal and an increase in the amount of NG used to make electricity, FACT! Since 2000, the kilowatts generated by NG has nearly doubled while coal has slipped, FACT. NG is the second leading electricity producer in this country, FACT!! Nuclear is the next source for generating electricity in this country after coal and NG. EIA projections for the next two decades are that NG power plants will be the main source of new gneration capacity. Please, go look it up on your EIA site if you don't believe me.

I can assure you I am more then just a casual reader on energy or just someone pulling websites up. I agree with you, this is a waste of time. I am going back to something more intelligent, my dog.

Buzz
04-06-2012, 02:17 PM
Hey buzz, did you know that in that by 2015 new regulations come into play for power plants that burn coal to make electricity? FACT Also, there are new carbon dioxide emission rules that will block new coal-burning plants, FACT. On top of that, the goverment is encouraging natural gas because it is going to cost the companies more to retro fit their plant to keep burning coal then it would be to do a total switch over to burning natural gas, FACT. In the last 10 years there has been a decline in the total kilowatts produced by burning coal and an increase in the amount of NG used to make electricity, FACT! Since 2000, the kilowatts generated by NG has nearly doubled while coal has slipped, FACT. NG is the second leading electricity producer in this country, FACT!! Nuclear is the next source for generating electricity in this country after coal and NG. EIA projections for the next two decades are that NG power plants will be the main source of new gneration capacity. Please, go look it up on your EIA site if you don't believe me.

I can assure you I am more then just a casual reader on energy or just someone pulling websites up. I agree with you, this is a waste of time. I am going back to something more intelligent, my dog.

Oh Lordy, now my little head is beginning to spin, FACT!

But I dispute your assertion that within 2 (edit, I mean 3 years) years ALL major generating stations will be running on NG.

I guess 30 years in the power business qualifies me as a website puller upper...:roll eyes:

Maybe I should be buying more NG stocks? I already have a boatload.

Matt McKenzie
04-06-2012, 04:35 PM
It was these comments that kinda set me off.

"If there's a viable market for solar panels, somebody will fill it. In this case, it looks like the Chicoms beat us to the punch."

It looks like you are saying that we simply screwed the pooch, while the Chinese were on the ball and simply beat us to the punch.

I can see where you may have inferred that. They beat us to the punch. Doing it with our assistance makes it worse and solidifies my position that our Federal government is FAR too involved in the market.