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road kill
03-14-2012, 05:13 PM
Here is some interesting reading for those of you that wonder why I think the way I do about the WI State Employee Unions and the battle of WI vs DA UNION on a national scale.

This makes it very clear what thier priorities are.
And it ain't the kids or the schools.




Other Teachers’ Union Reps Steamed at MTEA
Say New Concessions Proposal That Would Help Them Would Also Aid Governor Walker
MacIver News Service | March 13, 2012 11:05 pm

Wisc Teachers’ Union Officials Lay Out Bare Knuckles Political Concerns in Letter to Colleagues
[Milwaukee] The leaders of the largest local teachers’ union in Wisconsin are seeking legislation that would allow them to make mid-contract concessions without nullifying their current contract. The MacIver News Service has learned that it is a move that has outraged the leaders of the four next largest teachers’ unions.

On Monday the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported that the MTEA and the Milwaukee Public School Board of Directors, along with the MPS Administration, sent a letter to state lawmakers requesting they pass legislation to create a window of time for the parties to conduct negotiations on compensation or fringe-benefit concessions without nullifying existing union contracts.

News accounts of MTEAs move upset their fellow large urban teachers union locals.

The union leadership of the Madison, Kenosha, Green Bay and Racine teachers union sent a letter to representatives of the Milwaukee Teachers Education Association on Tuesday, opposing such a measure.

Regardless of if such a move would benefit the Milwaukee Public Schools or the MTEAs own membership, the union heads insist the political damage

The MacIver News Service has obtained the following letter, dated March 13, 2012, which was addressed to Bob Peterson and Sid Hatch, respectively the President and Executive Director of MTEA:

‘Dear Brothers:

“We write to express our grave concern that MTEA has asked their legislators to introduce and work to pass legislation which would enable MTEA and the Milwaukee Public Schools to enter into an agreement in which MTEA would make economic concessions such as those enacted by Governor Walker’s WI Act 10.

‘The undersigned believe that such legislation would be detrimental to our members’ best interests: i.e. our Districts would likely push for similar legislation, given the precedent established by MTEA. Further, we believe such legislation will have an adverse impact on all Wisconsin public employees. Such legislation will enable Governor Walker to claim victory of his policy to reign [sic] in public employee wages and benefits. Because he did not adequately fund education, we are all currently suffering. Allowing Governor Walker to make such a claim just before the recall election will prove detrimental to recalling him and, therefore, will only enhance his ability to further harm all Wisconsin public employees.

“We ask that you immediately withdraw your request for this legislation.”The letter was signed by the following union representatives from Madison, Kenosha, Green Bay and Racine:

Peggy Coyne, MTI President
John Matthews, MTI Executive Director
Mary B. Modder, KEA President
Joe Kiriski, KEA Executive Director
Toni Lardinois, GBEA President
Keith Patt, GBEA Executive Director
Pete Knotek, REA President
Jack, Bernfeld, REA Executive Director






RK

BonMallari
03-14-2012, 05:25 PM
I saw a dollar figure the other day on what Gov Walker saved the state by cutting out the union, but that data got buried by the media, but it was triple figures and in the millions....of course the media and the unions dont want that info getting out

road kill
03-15-2012, 10:04 AM
I am shocked that the progressives haven't spun this for me.:D



RK

menmon
03-15-2012, 11:20 AM
That is what unions do...negotiate the best deal for who they represent. That is their job. Having said that, your elected officials and their appointees need to sit down with them and push back on what is not fair or necessary.

Just like my doctor argument. Can't blame them for getting the best trade, but I can blame those that let them.

road kill
03-15-2012, 11:27 AM
That is what unions do...negotiate the best deal for who they represent. That is their job. Having said that, your elected officials and their appointees need to sit down with them and push back on what is not fair or necessary.

Just like my doctor argument. Can't blame them for getting the best trade, but I can blame those that let them.
Did you read the letter?

stan b

mngundog
03-15-2012, 11:31 AM
So it is shamefull that a group of unions get together to fight for something, the same way as the Wisc. Republicans did? Shame on who? I could only blame them if they didn't unite. Tell me again why Walker didn't include the Police and Fire Departments Unions in that deal?

road kill
03-15-2012, 11:39 AM
So it is shamefull that a group of unions get together to fight for something, the same way as the Wisc. Republicans did? Shame on who? I could only blame them if they didn't unite. Tell me again why Walker didn't include the Police and Fire Departments Unions in that deal?

Did you read the letter?

Walkers fixes worked, DA UNION doesn't want anyone to know.:D


It's about DA UNION, not what's best for the membership, the schools or the kids.

They made that clear in the verbage in the content of the letter.


RK

mngundog
03-15-2012, 11:43 AM
Did you read the letter?

Walkers fixes worked, DA UNION doesn't want anyone to know.:D


It's about DA UNION, not what's best for the membership, the schools or the kids.

They made that clear in the verbage in the content of the letter.


RK

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I guess people choose to read into things what they want to believe. Did they get enough names for a recall?
Why again didn't Walker go after the fireman and police unions?

menmon
03-15-2012, 11:47 AM
Did you read the letter?

stan b

I have been fortunate to work with many people that went through your public schools and higher education at the University of WI. The people were overachievers to say the least.

I would think twice before I let a politician screw this up. I would look for other place to cut cost because productivity come out of this type of educational system. Shit here is Texas, we have the low SAT scores while you enjoy some of the highest and greatest percentages.

See here in Texas, they can get money out the yazoo to build fancy schools and stadiums, but they push back on spending on their teachers. And the result is that they can't compete with those that went to school in WI.

A think the saying is a penny wise and a dollar foolish;-)

road kill
03-15-2012, 11:48 AM
I have been fortunate to work with many people that went through your public schools and higher education at the University of WI. The people were overachievers to say the least.

I would think twice before I let a politician screw this up. I would look for other place to cut cost because productivity come out of this type of educational system. Shit here is Texas, we have the low SAT scores while you enjoy some of the highest and greatest percentages.

See here in Texas, they can get money out the yazoo to build fancy schools and stadiums, but they push back on spending on their teachers. And the result is that they can't compete with those that went to school in WI.

A think the saying is a penny wise and a dollar foolish;-)
So...you did NOT read the letter.

OK:rolleyes:


RK

road kill
03-15-2012, 11:50 AM
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I guess people choose to read into things what they want to believe. Did they get enough names for a recall?
Why again didn't Walker go after the fireman and police unions?

Would you care to wager on the outcome of the recall election?
It's in early June.

YOU name the stakes.

I get Walker, you get whoever DA UNION bosses choose.

Deal??:D


RK

mngundog
03-15-2012, 11:51 AM
Would you care to wager on the outcome of the recall election?
It's in early June.

YOU name the stakes.

I get Walker, you get whoever DA UNION bosses choose.

Deal??:D


RK

Why again didn't walker go after the police and firemans unions? Why didn't Walker mention about any of this before the elections, seems like a D-bag move to me.

menmon
03-15-2012, 11:58 AM
So...you did NOT read the letter.

OK:rolleyes:


RK

I read it....confused a little by it, but understand. Your WI governor wants to bust the teachers union...that simple, and they don't what to let him. My point is I wouldn't let him either. Teachers earning a good wage attracts good teachers.

I bet he's got all kinds of new construction in that budget that can wait, but he was bought and paid for by those that will benefit from it.

Just like our Texas idiot governor that makes sure the budget is helps his buddies.

Can't blame them for buttering the bread of their buddies. I would too. But I would not let them kill a wonderful school system in the process.

Time to quit drinking the conservative cool-aid;-)

road kill
03-15-2012, 12:00 PM
Why again didn't walker go after the police and firemans unions? Why didn't Walker mention about any of this before the elections, seems like a D-bag move to me.
It is exactly what he ran on, word for word.
He did it in Milwaukee Cty, he did it for the state.
You just lap up what the media wants to tell.

He is a hero!!

Anyway, the Police and Fire fighters is not germaine to this issue.
Maybe he just likes them better??:rolleyes:

The wager??

Who you takin' in the recall election??

RK

mngundog
03-15-2012, 12:03 PM
It is exactly what he ran on, word for word.
He did it in Milwaukee Cty, he did it for the state.
You just lap up what the media wants to tell.

He is a hero!!

Anyway, the Police and Fire fighters is not germaine to this issue.

The wager??

Who you takin' in the recall election??

RK
Why aren't the Police and Firemans Unions germaine, he wants to bust unions, why didn't he go after them? I not up to date on the recall, are they even having one?

road kill
03-15-2012, 12:11 PM
Why aren't the Police and Firemans Unions germaine, he wants to bust unions, why didn't he go after them? I not up to date on the recall, are they even having one?

If you truly want me to, I will post a link of Walker explaining why.
But it won't matter.
The Police and Fire unions have completely different set ups on pension and benefits plans.
I will do it later, bugging out to NETWORK with some associates at a place with several TV's so as to watch me some hoops!!!:cool:

Yes there is a recall election in early June.
The recallers claimed they had a MILLION signatures, it was widely reported.
Turns out the had right at 800,000, not widely reported.

They needed 550,000.
Private citizen volunteers found over 200,000 bad sigs, but the state Government Accountability board questioned the volunteers credibility, though blindly accepted the recallers cred.

DA UNIONS, local, state and federal have backed Kathleen Falk.:rolleyes:
A true MOON BAT!!!



Balanced budget regards.;-)


RK

Brad Turner
03-15-2012, 12:32 PM
Why aren't the Police and Firemans Unions germaine, he wants to bust unions, why didn't he go after them? I not up to date on the recall, are they even having one?

Education is usually the biggest piece of the budget "pie." It makes for a big target. Most of the time the biggest costs for a government have the most opportunity for cost saving streamlines.

Marvin S
03-15-2012, 01:13 PM
Teachers earning a good wage attracts good teachers.

Do you have anythingggggggggggg that supports that statement?


The Police and Fire unions have completely different set ups on pension and benefits plans.

DA UNIONS, local, state and federal have backed Kathleen Falk.:rolleyes:
A true MOON BAT!!! RK

A truly wise person once told me - when you attempt to straighten things out - one person or group at a time - that will stop them from commiserating together :cool:.

Only a person who posts like an illiterate, who claims to have a superior education, could believe that the educators are earning their compensation!!!! :-P


Education is usually the biggest piece of the budget "pie." It makes for a big target. Most of the time the biggest costs for a government have the most opportunity for cost saving streamlines.

Understatement of the year :) :cool:

mngundog
03-15-2012, 01:46 PM
Education is usually the biggest piece of the budget "pie." It makes for a big target. Most of the time the biggest costs for a government have the most opportunity for cost saving streamlines.
But the case was that he went after almost every public employee union, except fireman, police, and state troopers, so that blows that arguement out the window. So the question remains why exclude only those groups?

menmon
03-15-2012, 02:40 PM
Do you have anythingggggggggggg that supports that statement?



A truly wise person once told me - when you attempt to straighten things out - one person or group at a time - that will stop them from commiserating together :cool:.

Only a person who posts like an illiterate, who claims to have a superior education, could believe that the educators are earning their compensation!!!! :-P



Understatement of the year :) :cool:

How much does a teacher make in WI. After someone like RK confirms that please let me know your thought.

My AA here at the bank makes more that our teachers and she does not have a college degree. So why come out of school and put up with brats when you can work for me without a degree and just put up with me?

The quality of our graduating student would tell me we need to improve something. Hiring better teacher might be a start, but they are all working for bankers;-)

gdluck
03-15-2012, 02:40 PM
So how is reducing compensation for teachers a good thing for the schools and students?

How would it effect you if your employer cut all your benefits? For most people, cutting their wages will produce resentment, and lower the morale and dedication. How is that a POSITIVE for the students?

Marvin S
03-15-2012, 03:12 PM
So how is reducing compensation for teachers a good thing for the schools and students?

How would it effect you if your employer cut all your benefits? For most people, cutting their wages will produce resentment, and lower the morale and dedication. How is that a POSITIVE for the students?

It requires little motivation for teachers to go into extreme whine mode :(.

mngundog
03-15-2012, 03:14 PM
So how is reducing compensation for teachers a good thing for the schools and students?

How would it effect you if your employer cut all your benefits? For most people, cutting their wages will produce resentment, and lower the morale and dedication. How is that a POSITIVE for the students?
Understatement of the year. :cool:

duckheads
03-15-2012, 03:31 PM
So how is reducing compensation for teachers a good thing for the schools and students?

How would it effect you if your employer cut all your benefits? For most people, cutting their wages will produce resentment, and lower the morale and dedication. How is that a POSITIVE for the students?

That is happening all over the private sector. It is time for the public employees to takes some cuts also. Many businesses in my area are struggling to stay in business and have to make tough decsions. Long over due in the public sector! If they don't like it they can go find another job!!!!!

menmon
03-15-2012, 03:42 PM
That is happening all over the private sector. It is time for the public employees to takes some cuts also. Many businesses in my area are struggling to stay in business and have to make tough decsions. Long over due in the public sector! If they don't like it they can go find another job!!!!!

That is the point...cut their pay and you will get second tier teachers:rolleyes:

charly_t
03-15-2012, 03:50 PM
My relatives who teach school in other states could not believe the high salaries posted for some WI teachers. Now.......lets remember that some of this was fixed by I believe better shopping for insurance. I can tell you that in OK better choices for things bought for the school systems etc. would help a lot.

duckheads
03-15-2012, 03:56 PM
That is the point...cut their pay and you will get second tier teachers:rolleyes:


No you miss the point. There are crappy teachers that need to be fired but can't be. Teachers need to be held accountable just as people in the private sector are. Prime example is in our old school district. Highest paid teachers in the county yet the school is on academic probation by the state. Thanks to the republicains in the house and senate and Mitch Daniels there is now open enroll across the state of Indiana. We pulled our kids from that district and put them in a school that has been rated an A Excellent school for the last five years! Thank the Lord for my mother in law or we would not be able to do. I also have to sacrifice as I am late to work three days a week when I have to drive my kids to school. We are fortunate to be in a situation to be able to do this. What about the people that can not? They are stuck in a crappy school with teachers that only care about themselves and not the students. We could not be happier with change. Have a good night as I am off the cheer on my daughter and the 8th grade Lady Satellites in the Conference Championship Game!!!!!!!!!! Since I am at it GO HOO HOO HOOSIERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

road kill
03-15-2012, 03:57 PM
That is the point...cut their pay and you will get second tier teachers:rolleyes:

No one took a "pay cut."
Teachers had insurance paid for 100% by employer.
They had to buy insurance from a company OWNED by DA UNION.
Now teachers pay 12% of premium.
Insurance is a competitive bid now, not mandatory union owned insurance company.


Also, pension contributions were covered 100% by employer, now a 2% contribution to retirement by employee.
State now longer deducts union dues and deposits them in DA UNIONS account.

DA UNION now has to be confirmed by majority (51%) to be ratified
No longer mandatory to belong.

Teachers can now receive "merit pay increases," taboo under old "collective bargaining" agreement.
The national union goons are in trouble here and they know it.
This precedent is their demise.
They have pump BILLIONS into WI to get collective bargaining and mandatory union dues back.
They are done here.

WI went from $1Billion in debt to balanced budget.

MPS extended union contract before Act 10 became law.
As a result they have laid off 500+ employees and are still in trouble.
Now they are asking for mercy to get out of a jam.
Walker granted the reopening of contract negotiations.

Racine, Kenosha, Green Bay and Madison school districts are all also in trouble for the same reason.
Milwaukee gave in, the rest would rather screw the schools, kids and teachers (layoffs) than do the right thing.

Poor babies!

Read the letter again.
And, what are we betting in the recall election?


RK

mngundog
03-15-2012, 04:00 PM
Balancing the budget at the expense of the children, wonderfull idea.

charly_t
03-15-2012, 04:05 PM
Some people on this thread either have reading comprehension problems or they aren't reading the info.

road kill
03-15-2012, 04:09 PM
Some people on this thread either have reading comprehension problems or they aren't reading the info.

They are idealogues, kneeling at the altar of porgressivism.

They will NOT see the facts, only what feels good.

That is why I usually stick to one liners.
Either they are not smart enough to comprehend the facts or they refuse to.
There is no other option.:D

RK

paul young
03-15-2012, 04:14 PM
who on here has had their disposable income cut by 12% this year?

maybe it's not TECHNICALLY a pay cut, but the end result is that they have less money to spend.

so let's hear it, how many of us have had this happen to them this year?-Paul

road kill
03-15-2012, 04:15 PM
How much does a teacher make in WI. After someone like RK confirms that please let me know your thought.

My AA here at the bank makes more that our teachers and she does not have a college degree. So why come out of school and put up with brats when you can work for me without a degree and just put up with me?

The quality of our graduating student would tell me we need to improve something. Hiring better teacher might be a start, but they are all working for bankers;-)

Here is info on what MPS (Milwaukee Public Schools) pays their teachers.



In 2011, "the average annual compensation for a teacher in the Milwaukee Public Schools system will exceed $100,000."
MacIver Institute on Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010 in a video news release

The MacIver Institute says average annual salary and benefits for Milwaukee Public Schools teachers tops $100,000

Share this story:
Tea party Republican Rand Paul raised some eyebrows in February 2011 when he said in two national TV interviews that the average public school teacher in Wisconsin "is making $89,000 per year."

But the claim by the U.S. senator from Kentucky, which we ruled to be False, was not as surprising as one made nearly a year earlier by the conservative MacIver Institute.

Speaking about Milwaukee public school teachers, the Madison think tank declared in a March 3, 2010, news release:

"For the first time in history, the average annual compensation for a teacher in the Milwaukee Public Schools system will exceed $100,000" in 2011.

In light of Paul’s comments, which were made during the heat of the nationally watched Wisconsin budget debate, we decided to take a closer look at MacIver’s claim. It has resurfaced in the budget debate in comments on websites such as the Huffington Post and TheNation.com.

In announcing the $100,000 figure, the institute produced a video that included brief clips of an MPS administrator reciting salary and fringe benefit numbers during a school board meeting the previous day. The average total compensation figure for teachers exceeded $100,000.

We asked MacIver spokesman Brian Farley if he had any additional evidence. He cited a February 2011 posting from the School Zone blog on JSOnline.com, which reported slightly different numbers than those in MacIver’s video.

The posting quoted MPS’ budget manager as saying that in 2011-2012 (the fiscal year that begins July 1, 2011), the average MPS teacher would receive total compensation of $101,091 -- $59,500 in salary and $41,591 in benefits.

We double-checked with MPS spokeswoman Roseann St. Aubin and she confirmed the figures.

We wanted to compare the $101,091 for MPS teachers to other teachers, but the latest figures compiled by the state Department of Public Instruction are for 2009-2010, two years earlier.

Those figures show for 2009-2010, MPS teachers earned, on average, $56,095 in salary plus $30,202 in benefits, for a total of $86,297.

That was lower than eight other school districts in Milwaukee County, including Greendale, Greenfield, Shorewood, Cudahy, Fox Point, South Milwaukee, Franklin and Nicolet, which was highest at just over $103,000.

Let’s return to the MacIver Institute claim.

The conservative think tank said the average annual compensation for a Milwaukee Public Schools teacher would exceed $100,000 in 2011. As of July 1, 2011, according to the school district, that figure will be $101,091.

MacIver’s claim is True.




This is why they are in trouble and came to the Governor hat in hand for an extension to redo the contract.
Or else layoff another thousand teachers.
If they solve this, no one lose a job.
As far as the kids go, look up the results of MPS before this.:rolleyes:


Now, back to the Badgers!!!
(putting it on Montana)
And Marquette!
(puttin' it on BYU)


RK

menmon
03-15-2012, 04:17 PM
No you miss the point. There are crappy teachers that need to be fired but can't be. Teachers need to be held accountable just as people in the private sector are. Prime example is in our old school district. Highest paid teachers in the county yet the school is on academic probation by the state. Thanks to the republicains in the house and senate and Mitch Daniels there is now open enroll across the state of Indiana. We pulled our kids from that district and put them in a school that has been rated an A Excellent school for the last five years! Thank the Lord for my mother in law or we would not be able to do. I also have to sacrifice as I am late to work three days a week when I have to drive my kids to school. We are fortunate to be in a situation to be able to do this. What about the people that can not? They are stuck in a crappy school with teachers that only care about themselves and not the students. We could not be happier with change. Have a good night as I am off the cheer on my daughter and the 8th grade Lady Satellites in the Conference Championship Game!!!!!!!!!! Since I am at it GO HOO HOO HOOSIERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All I know is that WI produces smart kids:)

road kill
03-15-2012, 04:19 PM
who on here has had their disposable income cut by 12% this year?

maybe it's not TECHNICALLY a pay cut, but the end result is that they have less money to spend.

so let's hear it, how many of us have had this happen to them this year?-Paul

Better yet, who here has their insurnace and retirement paid 100% by their employer??

Let's hear it!!!

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x310/The_Ultimate_Wrestling_Gallery/Hulk%20Hogan/HulkHogan017.jpg


RK

menmon
03-15-2012, 04:21 PM
Better yet, who here has there insurnace and retirement paid 100% by their empolyer??

Let's hear it!!!

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x310/The_Ultimate_Wrestling_Gallery/Hulk%20Hogan/HulkHogan017.jpg


RK

The military and last time I looked they didn't pay you shit while you worked for them either....so view it as compensation for hours worked.

road kill
03-15-2012, 04:24 PM
The military and last time I looked they didn't pay you shit while you worked for them either....so view it as compensation for hours worked.

These teachers ain't in the military.
BTW--GOOD kids come from GOOD families, not schools.


And, the next time your house is on fire, call a teacher.:rolleyes:


RK

mngundog
03-15-2012, 04:34 PM
Here is info on what MPS (Milwaukee Public Schools) pays their teachers.



This is why they are in trouble and came to the Governor hat in hand for an extension to redo the contract.
Or else layoff another thousand teachers.
If they solve this, no one lose a job.
As far as the kids go, look up the results of MPS before this.:rolleyes:
RK
Since this is happening statewide in Wisconsin, why did you only post about Milwaukee schools? Isn't the average salary about 50k and the starting salary less than 30k? I bet the best of the best are flooding to Wisconsin for starting pay under 30k.

menmon
03-15-2012, 04:39 PM
These teachers ain't in the military.
BTW--GOOD kids come from GOOD families, not schools.


And, the next time your house is on fire, call a teacher.:rolleyes:


RK

There have been some superstars come from bad parents and bad upbringing. So teacher made a difference in their life. That argument does not hold.

I've seen some real losers come from good families and good upbringing too.

I'm not advocating screwing firemen either. I think they need to look at cutting cost without taking the easy way out by cutting someones livlihood.

This economy is churning again so maybe as they see their coffers grow, they will quit picking on the little guy.

road kill
03-15-2012, 04:52 PM
who on here has had their disposable income cut by 12% this year?

maybe it's not TECHNICALLY a pay cut, but the end result is that they have less money to spend.

so let's hear it, how many of us have had this happen to them this year?-Paul

They did NOT take a 12%cut in pay.
They are paying 12% of the insurance premium.

At least try, will ya?

RK

road kill
03-15-2012, 04:56 PM
Since this is happening statewide in Wisconsin, why did you only post about Milwaukee schools? Isn't the average salary about 50k and the starting salary less than 30k? I bet the best of the best are flooding to Wisconsin for starting pay under 30k.

2 reasons.

#1 I am watching hoops and using I phone
#2 this is what I found


Rk

LokiMeister
03-15-2012, 05:54 PM
They did NOT take a 12%cut in pay.
They are paying 12% of the insurance premium.

At least try, will ya?

RK

RK, I agree with you, but you need to go and reread what Paul said. You are not making sense.

gdluck
03-15-2012, 06:39 PM
This makes it very clear what thier priorities are.
And it ain't the kids or the schools.



RK



RK I responded to this, but have not seen a reply. You responded to alot of others that do not have the same view. Why not mine? And please respond to my original question. Sorry haven't taken time to figure the muliti quote

road kill
03-15-2012, 08:04 PM
RK, I agree with you, but you need to go and reread what Paul said. You are not making sense.

What part of they are now paying 12% of the premium versus 0% before don't you get?

No 12% cut in anything.


RK

scott spalding
03-15-2012, 09:13 PM
Do you have anythingggggggggggg that supports that statement?



A truly wise person once told me - when you attempt to straighten things out - one person or group at a time - that will stop them from commiserating together :cool:.

Only a person who posts like an illiterate, who claims to have a superior education, could believe that the educators are earning their compensation!!!! :-P



Understatement of the year :) :cool:

To bad you feel that way about our teachers Marvin. My wife gave up a good career to become a middle school teacher. She spends 50 hours a week working hard and many of those hours off the clock to make sure her students are going to be prepared for there years in high school. She is not a person that would ever complain about her pay because she new what she was giving up before her career change. It is unfortunate that she gets so little respect from you for the time she puts in for the children of others.

paul young
03-15-2012, 09:53 PM
What part of they are now paying 12% of the premium versus 0% before don't you get?

No 12% cut in anything.


RK

so they have the same take-home pay as they had before ?????? how is that possible?-Paul

paul young
03-15-2012, 09:57 PM
To bad you feel that way about our teachers Marvin. My wife gave up a good career to become a middle school teacher. She spends 50 hours a week working hard and many of those hours off the clock to make sure her students are going to be prepared for there years in high school. She is not a person that would ever complain about her pay because she new what she was giving up before her career change. It is unfortunate that she gets so little respect from you for the time she puts in for the children of others.


it's "in" to hate teachers and teacher's unions. in fact, ANY kind of union. uppity baskirds.... that's all you need to know to understand this thread.-Paul

Buzz
03-15-2012, 10:20 PM
To bad you feel that way about our teachers Marvin. My wife gave up a good career to become a middle school teacher. She spends 50 hours a week working hard and many of those hours off the clock to make sure her students are going to be prepared for there years in high school. She is not a person that would ever complain about her pay because she new what she was giving up before her career change. It is unfortunate that she gets so little respect from you for the time she puts in for the children of others.

I appreciate that your wife was able to make the sacrifice. I looked into it around 25 years ago. I was newly graduated with a shiny new degree in electrical engineering and I heard that they were having a lot of trouble finding qualified people to teach math and science. I thought that my high school physics teacher was a cool dude and decided to look into teaching. When I found out that I would need to take a huge salary hit, taking a cut from roughly $45 k down to $22 k, I said thanks, but no thanks. That would have been a complete lifestyle change.

Gerry Clinchy
03-15-2012, 10:40 PM
I think that most teachers are doing considerably better than they were 25 years ago. The union was likely a factor in the change. Yet, the union has created the same problems in teaching as in other lines of work.

mngundog
03-15-2012, 10:53 PM
I think that most teachers are doing considerably better than they were 25 years ago. The union was likely a factor in the change. Yet, the union has created the same problems in teaching as in other lines of work.http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state
Not really, average starting salary in Wisc $25,222 WOW, I bet you could pay off those students loans real fast.

M&K's Retrievers
03-15-2012, 11:34 PM
so they have the same take-home pay as they had before ?????? how is that possible?-Paul

The 12% premium contribution they are now required to pay is not equal to 12% of their salary. Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend?

Besides, if they didn't have to pay their union dues, they would probably net a raise. But then of course if that were to happen, the Democratic Party would take it on the chin.

More and more employers are having to defer some of the increases in premium with benefit reductions and requiring employee contributions. Premium increases due in part to Obamacare.

But cheer up, Paul. Many employers will begin sh!t canning their programs altogether due to Obamacare and just pay the fine. Now that will be a big pay cut when the employer stops providing group insurance. Employees will be left to fend for themselves by purchasing individual policies or just paying the fine themselves. The only people who will buy insurance will be the uninsurable but that is another topic.

Marvin S
03-16-2012, 12:02 AM
To bad you feel that way about our teachers Marvin. My wife gave up a good career to become a middle school teacher. She spends 50 hours a week working hard and many of those hours off the clock to make sure her students are going to be prepared for there years in high school. She is not a person that would ever complain about her pay because she new what she was giving up before her career change. It is unfortunate that she gets so little respect from you for the time she puts in for the children of others.

This is not a discussion of whose relative works hard. It is a discussion about a group of individuals that always seem to think they should be accorded a level of respect they have not earned. The burnouts in the HS parking lot are not usually made by the students, that leaves :)?


I appreciate that your wife was able to make the sacrifice. I looked into it around 25 years ago. I was newly graduated with a shiny new degree in electrical engineering and I heard that they were having a lot of trouble finding qualified people to teach math and science. I thought that my high school physics teacher was a cool dude and decided to look into teaching. When I found out that I would need to take a huge salary hit, taking a cut from roughly $45 k down to $22 k, I said thanks, but no thanks. That would have been a complete lifestyle change.

Ennis MT needed a HS Math, Science & BB coach. In order to qualify I would have had to go back to school to partake in about 30 hours of education courses over 2 years. Money was not an issue, we have always managed to get by somehow, but going back to school was :rolleyes:.

road kill
03-16-2012, 06:37 AM
12% X $500= $60

Game changer.

Has anyone here had there insurance premium go up in the last 40 years?
WEAC & MTEA has, once!
Noone "HATES" teachers.
That is nothing more than an emotional response to a common sense decision.
That is part and parcel of the progressive playbook.

As far as DA UNION, we used to ride horses, times have changed.
IRRESPONSIBLE spending by Democrat administrations in this state have led to these cutbacks.
It amazes me that intelligent people have no grasp or regard for debt and the negative consequences of spending more than you have.


Balanced budget regards........



RK

mngundog
03-16-2012, 08:20 AM
Noone "HATES" teachers.
That is nothing more than an emotional response to a common sense decision.


RK

It is a discussion about a group of individuals that always seem to think they should be accorded a level of respect they have not earned.
Seems like at least one hates them, can you imagine having to teach a group of kids that had parents with the above attitude? As you said before parents make a difference and when you have parents telling their children that their teachers don't deserve respect the level of education goes down.

luvmylabs23139
03-16-2012, 08:39 AM
12% X $500= $60

Game changer.



RK


actually it is even less than that. Back out SS and federal income taxes on the cost. As long as it is set up as a CAfe plan the money they pay would not be subject to any of these taxes, while regular income woud be!

road kill
03-16-2012, 08:45 AM
Seems like at least one hates them, can you imagine having to teach a group of kids that had parents with the above attitude? As you said before parents make a difference and when you have parents telling their children that their teachers don't deserve respect the level of education goes down.
Everyone deserves respect until they prove otherwise.
I try to never be disrespectful to anyone on a personal level.
Not always able to do that, but I try.
(I never consciously post disrespectfully)

Having said that 2 things come to mind.

#1--the total LACK of respect shown to Governor Walker and his family by DA UNION!!
#2--After caving 100% to DA UNION, Governor Quinn in IL now faces massive state layoffs, DA UNION got everything they wanted (demanded) and now are disresptcing Quinn.
#3--No matter what, DA UNION is never happy!!

So which state is now in better shape?

WI vs. IL:cool:


RK

Brad Turner
03-16-2012, 09:07 AM
To bad you feel that way about our teachers Marvin. My wife gave up a good career to become a middle school teacher. She spends 50 hours a week working hard and many of those hours off the clock to make sure her students are going to be prepared for there years in high school. She is not a person that would ever complain about her pay because she new what she was giving up before her career change. It is unfortunate that she gets so little respect from you for the time she puts in for the children of others.

X2. I have no problem with the things that have been done in Wisconsin. As a teacher, I feel it is sad that all teachers are viewed negatively because of the actions of so few. Teachers are never going to get rich. Most teachers care about their students and we want them to succeed. The unions are the problem, not the individual teacher.

luvmylabs23139
03-16-2012, 09:11 AM
Seems like at least one hates them, can you imagine having to teach a group of kids that had parents with the above attitude? As you said before parents make a difference and when you have parents telling their children that their teachers don't deserve respect the level of education goes down.


Or sometimes the teacher LIES to the parent and the parent has too much of respect the teacher attitude.
Been there done that, and almost 40 years later the teacher is a lying bitch and my mother was stupid!
Guess what I still will not forgive my mom for taking the bitch's side.
Only detention I ever had and it was 6th grade.
Turns out years later, it came out after many other complaints said BITCH had it out for our specific class.
We were, unknown to us and our parents, a group of students put into a "test" situation. She being a bleeding liberal did not like the "test" idea.
This was during year 4 of the "test".

road kill
03-16-2012, 09:24 AM
X2. I have no problem with the things that have been done in Wisconsin. As a teacher, I feel it is sad that all teachers are viewed negatively because of the actions of so few. Teachers are never going to get rich. Most teachers care about their students and we want them to succeed. The unions are the problem, not the individual teacher.

This is pretty respectful, and part of the problem.
I mean this guy is a teacher and wouldn't accept this behavior from a student.
But we must respect it from him?

This is just one part of what DA UNION has done in WI.
It does not paint a "respectful" picture.

Pay particular attention at the 1:28 mark.:rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIHkpMtJ0dI

RK

LokiMeister
03-16-2012, 09:34 AM
What part of they are now paying 12% of the premium versus 0% before don't you get?

No 12% cut in anything.


RK

What's the difference if they get a 12% cut in pay or they have to pay 12% for insurance/pension? Nothing. That is the point. Either way, they still have less money to spend.

road kill
03-16-2012, 09:38 AM
What's the difference if they get a 12% cut in pay or they have to pay 12% for insurance/pension? Nothing. That is the point. Either way, they still have less money to spend.

Pretty big difference.
I know you know that, just takin' a cheap shot.
That's OK.


If you REALLY don't see the difference (which I doubt, I do credit you with being smarter than that) here is the math.

Annual Pay=$50,000 - 12 % = $44,000
A net loss of $6,000

Annual Ins Premium=$0 (state pays $6,000) + 12%=$720
$50,000-$720 = $49,280

Hope that helps.


RK

luvmylabs23139
03-16-2012, 10:07 AM
What's the difference if they get a 12% cut in pay or they have to pay 12% for insurance/pension? Nothing. That is the point. Either way, they still have less money to spend.

Paying 12% of insurance is not a 12% cut in pay!!!! How do you not understand the actual math behind this?

Lets just say for easy numbers a teacher makes 48 K per year. 12% of 48000 is 5760.
If insurance is $500 per month they are paying 12% of 500 per month which is $60.
$60 * 12 =$720 per year.
We haven't even talked about the tax factor!!!

paul young
03-16-2012, 10:14 AM
Pretty big difference.
I know you know that, just takin' a cheap shot.
That's OK.


If you REALLY don't see the difference (which I doubt, I do credit you with being smarter than that) here is the math.

Annual Pay=$50,000 - 12 % = $44,000
A net loss of $6,000

Annual Ins Premium=$0 (state pays $6,000) + 12%=$720
$50,000-$720 = $49,280

Hope that helps.


RK

$6,000 annually? that there is some CHEAP insurance. wonder what's covered......

i have a pretty good plan where i work, and my cost is over $5,000. i still have an out of pocket expense of $1500 annually to meet and a hefty co-pay on our medications.

i notice you did not use the starting pay for your calcs, but rather a rate for someone with considerable time in the system. with an average starting pay below $30,000, $15 bucks a week WOULD make a difference for those people.

did the legislators and the Governor take the same hit? when is their next raise? how about people like DMV, DEP, Dept of Taxation, Dept. of Public Works, etc.? seems like everyone employed by the state should suffer if the state was in such dire straits.-Paul

LokiMeister
03-16-2012, 10:20 AM
I do credit you with being smarter than that
RK

The blinders are off (they went off painfully).

I will say though, my bro-in-law and sis-in-law are teachers in Appleton, they each lost $4,000 a year. At least they still have a job.

road kill
03-16-2012, 10:21 AM
$6,000 annually? that there is some CHEAP insurance. wonder what's covered......

i have a pretty good plan where i work, and my cost is over $5,000. i still have an out of pocket expense of $1500 annually to meet and a hefty co-pay on our medications.

i notice you did not use the starting pay for your calcs, but rather a rate for someone with considerable time in the system. with an average starting pay below $30,000, $15 bucks a week WOULD make a difference for those people.

did the legislators and the Governor take the same hit? when is their next raise? how about people like DMV, DEP, Dept of Taxation, Dept. of Public Works, etc.? seems like everyone employed by the state should suffer if the state was in such dire straits.-Paul

Governor took a BIGGER hit.
(page 5, HE STARTED IT!!!!:rolleyes:)

All state employees in DA UNION took the hit.

If your insurance is $5,000 a year, that would be less than $6,000 a year, wouldn't it?:rolleyes:


BTW--In your business, maybe you started at the top salary range, most businesses you start at the bottom and work your way up.


I don't think you would like my hours, salary and benefits at all.;-)




RK

luvmylabs23139
03-16-2012, 10:41 AM
When comparing insurance costs for the employee apples must be compared to apples.
Employee only or ????
Let me give all of you left wing nuts a crazy example of the hard working single coverage person paying for other people's kids.
Employee only at a certain company cost more to the employee than employee plus as many kids as they could breed. Who paid for what???
Employee plus spouse paid a lot more than employee plus god knows how many mutts.
If 2 adults both worked for the company they paid for those who had kids a an insane rate.
If you questioned the rates because you knew all of the ins and outs of things at the annual company meetings about rates you got called into tp your bosses office and told to shut up or else.

Anyone want to know why???

paul young
03-16-2012, 11:05 AM
Governor took a BIGGER hit.
(page 5, HE STARTED IT!!!!:rolleyes:)

All state employees in DA UNION took the hit.

If your insurance is $5,000 a year, that would be less than $6,000 a year, wouldn't it?:rolleyes:


BTW--In your business, maybe you started at the top salary range, most businesses you start at the bottom and work your way up.


I don't think you would like my hours, salary and benefits at all.;-)




RK

glad to hear it. fair is fair.

that's MY cost. my employer pays roughly twice that much, as well.

nope. started out for 4.02/ hour in 1976.
don't know how many hours you work. i guarantee you would have to scale your lifestyle back considerably on what i make. no complaints; we live a simple lifestyle and have what we need.-Paul

Brad Turner
03-16-2012, 11:18 AM
This is pretty respectful, and part of the problem.
I mean this guy is a teacher and wouldn't accept this behavior from a student.
But we must respect it from him?

This is just one part of what DA UNION has done in WI.
It does not paint a "respectful" picture.

Pay particular attention at the 1:28 mark.:rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIHkpMtJ0dI

RK

I am not sure I follow you here Stan?

road kill
03-16-2012, 11:53 AM
I am not sure I follow you here Stan?



That guy became the face of teachers in WI.
That was played on FOX and a couple other media outlets.
He disgraced his profession and his union behaving like that.
He was shouting down that reporter who was doing his job.
That teacher would not accept that from his students.
I doubt that is representative of most teachers.
I am sure it is NOT of the ones I know and call friends.

I wonder how that teacher would like you and I shouting him down in his work space.

So.....this is part of the reason some have the attitude they have about teachers.
That, and as is the case on any issue, people have to personalize things to make them work in their minds.
That's just human nature.

I am thinking I should back out of this now.
I think people don't understand me, and are getting angry.

Great exchanges, to me anyway.

Thanks!

stan b


RK

luvmylabs23139
03-16-2012, 12:20 PM
glad to hear it. fair is fair.

that's MY cost. my employer pays roughly twice that much, as well.

nope. started out for 4.02/ hour in 1976.
don't know how many hours you work. i guarantee you would have to scale your lifestyle back considerably on what i make. no complaints; we live a simple lifestyle and have what we need.-Paul

YEAH YEAH YEAH you have me on ignore but I have to respond to this pile of crap.bn
In 1980 CT min wage was 3.37.
Do you have any degree? If so did you have that degree in 1976?????
NObody can compare 1976 wages to todays wages.
You love your crazy left wing state so much. Tell me why I should have stayed around in that nutty state?
All I ever saw was that hard working people were screwed at every turn paying for the leaches.
Explain to me why section 8 welfare leaches destroyed my condo complex and I should be happy about it????
Tell me why working your butt off was rewarded by having your tax money paying for the leach to block your car in every day. Tell me why a drug dealer was ignored?
Tell me why nothing was done about the illegal pitbull visiting and used to threaten an owner!!! Good thing my lab told the pit to kiss off.
Tell me why nobody did anything about the illegal laundry hanging over their railing even though I called every time?

Brad Turner
03-16-2012, 01:04 PM
I'm not angry. I believe on most points we agree.

charly_t
03-16-2012, 05:34 PM
12% X $500= $60

Game changer.

Has anyone here had there insurance premium go up in the last 40 years?
WEAC & MTEA has, once!
Noone "HATES" teachers.
That is nothing more than an emotional response to a common sense decision.
That is part and parcel of the progressive playbook.

As far as DA UNION, we used to ride horses, times have changed.
IRRESPONSIBLE spending by Democrat administrations in this state have led to these cutbacks.
It amazes me that intelligent people have no grasp or regard for debt and the negative consequences of spending more than you have.


Balanced budget regards........



RK

Good post. Should clear up some of this for some people.

charly_t
03-16-2012, 05:39 PM
..............................The unions are the problem, not the individual teacher.

That's what we have been saying !

Brad Turner
03-16-2012, 05:46 PM
That's what we have been saying !

Thats not what Marvin S is saying... He lumps us all together.

scott spalding
03-16-2012, 05:50 PM
Or sometimes the teacher LIES to the parent and the parent has too much of respect the teacher attitude.
Been there done that, and almost 40 years later the teacher is a lying bitch and my mother was stupid!
Guess what I still will not forgive my mom for taking the bitch's side.
Only detention I ever had and it was 6th grade.
Turns out years later, it came out after many other complaints said BITCH had it out for our specific class.
We were, unknown to us and our parents, a group of students put into a "test" situation. She being a bleeding liberal did not like the "test" idea.
This was during year 4 of the "test".

This ramble is the result of many years of line breeding I would expect.

charly_t
03-16-2012, 05:52 PM
Thats not what Marvin S is saying... He lumps us all together.

Not sure what he said but people do tend to generalize on these forums. I have a good many teachers in my family but none in WI. Nor do any of them belong to any union.

Marvin S
03-16-2012, 06:39 PM
Thats not what Marvin S is saying... He lumps us all together.

If you belong to the NEA/TEA you are part of a group that has made a conscious choice :confused:. If you belong to that group & choose to sit on your hands, blindly accepting whatever is presented from on high you are part of the problem, regardless of whether you do a great job at what you do or not :o.

If you have not read about the pooooooooor job being done in education, which is a general agreement among many more influential than I, then we need to stop this discussion.

Brad Turner
03-16-2012, 08:12 PM
For the record, I am not a part of any union. I have read many things concerning the state of education in this country, with most of them written by individuals that have not ever been in a classroom as an educator. The remainder of articles were written by individuals whom haven't been in a classroom in a very long time. Who would those "many influential individuals" be that you are referring to? Politicians?

There are many things that could be done better in education. The problem is that educators are handcuffed by so much bureaucratic bs that they have very little opportunity to deviate from what they are being told they must teach.

In the end, all we can do is try to be positive role models for our students and present them with the materials they are required to know for the standardized tests. It is a shame...

Let me stress that I am not against what has been done in WI or TN regarding education. I feel educators should be held acceptable for their results. There are many factors that influence those results that are not currently considered.

Gerry Clinchy
03-16-2012, 10:39 PM
Way back, someone said that their teacher relatives took a $4000 hit with paying 12% of their health insurance premium. I did the math ... that means that their health insurance costs a total of $33,333/year ... or $2777 PER MONTH!

That has to be one heckuva plan!

I believe there was some mention of significant savings to several school districts once the districts were not required to use the insurance provider that was owned & operated by ... the union.

Marvin S
03-16-2012, 10:48 PM
For the record, I am not a part of any union. I have read many things concerning the state of education in this country, with most of them written by individuals that have not ever been in a classroom as an educator. The remainder of articles were written by individuals whom haven't been in a classroom in a very long time. Who would those "many influential individuals" be that you are referring to? Politicians?

There are many things that could be done better in education. The problem is that educators are handcuffed by so much bureaucratic bs that they have very little opportunity to deviate from what they are being told they must teach.

In the end, all we can do is try to be positive role models for our students and present them with the materials they are required to know for the standardized tests. It is a shame...

Let me stress that I am not against what has been done in WI or TN regarding education. I feel educators should be held acceptable for their results. There are many factors that influence those results that are not currently considered.

Education will never be reformed from the inside - the most influential person to date would have to be Bill Gates plus many of those who appreciate a good education & what it would bring to our country's competitive atmosphere - there is a very good reason the teachers unions support the D's - & it's not about accountability :eek:.

Buzz
03-17-2012, 02:18 AM
Way back, someone said that their teacher relatives took a $4000 hit with paying 12% of their health insurance premium. I did the math ... that means that their health insurance costs a total of $33,333/year ... or $2777 PER MONTH!

That has to be one heckuva plan!

I believe there was some mention of significant savings to several school districts once the districts were not required to use the insurance provider that was owned & operated by ... the union.

I could be wrong, but I thought they took a hit on both insurance and pension contributions. I guess inflicting pain will help attract better talent.

road kill
03-17-2012, 06:09 AM
I could be wrong, but I thought they took a hit on both insurance and pension contributions. I guess inflicting pain will help attract better talent.

HMMMMM......

Yes Buzz, you have caught we the tax payers (who do NOT matter).

A handful of teachers (dedicated professionals caring ONLY about the students) have left or retired (only to return and "double dip").

Incidently, the handful of openings for teaching position have drawn hundreds and in some cases thousands of qualified applicants seeking the vacant positions.

But hey, it is much more fun to attach some misguided emotion to the topic other than the logic of WE DON'T HAVE THE MONEY!!!

Over 80% of the states budget is payroll.
What else would you adjust to make up a BILLION$$$ deficitwe HAD in the budget???
(our budget is now balanced)


Can't wait to hear it!!!!:D

RK

Buzz
03-17-2012, 09:04 AM
I guess it makes sense that we pay sports heros, CEOs, and finance folks top dollar, because after-all, they might take their talent elsewhere. But when it comes to educating out kids, THAT isn't important. We the taxpayers need protection damn it! Who cares if we just ride this great country into the ground. What is mine is mine and I don't want no freak'in teacher getting his or her mitts on it.

Penny wise and pound foolish.

Matt McKenzie
03-17-2012, 09:13 AM
I guess it makes sense that we pay sports heros, CEOs, and finance folks top dollar, because after-all, they might take their talent elsewhere. But when it comes to educating out kids, THAT isn't important. We the taxpayers need protection damn it! Who cares if we just ride this great country into the ground. What is mine is mine and I don't want no freak'in teacher getting his or her mitts on it.

Penny wise and pound foolish.

I'm sure you are intelligent enough to see that sports heros, CEOs and finance folks are paid by the free market. Those people are paid by their employers (not WE, as you stated) based on perceived value and market conditions. Government employees are paid based on budgets regulated by politicians and funded by tax payers. That's where the problem comes in.
You want teachers to get paid, get the government out of the education business and let the market determine teacher pay. Then the good teachers would be compensated and the bad teachers would become hairdressers.
I'm one of the "less fortunate" who pay for poor government schools through my property taxes and still pay private school tuition because I actually care that my children get a proper education. I guess it could be worse. I could be one of those people who pay for public schools my entire life and never have children.
The problem isn't that we need to "fix" the public education system. That's like saying we need to "fix" the problems with steam-driven automobiles. The system doesn't need to be fixed. It needs to be replaced.

Matt McKenzie
03-17-2012, 09:22 AM
For the record, I am not a part of any union. I have read many things concerning the state of education in this country, with most of them written by individuals that have not ever been in a classroom as an educator. The remainder of articles were written by individuals whom haven't been in a classroom in a very long time. Who would those "many influential individuals" be that you are referring to? Politicians?

There are many things that could be done better in education. The problem is that educators are handcuffed by so much bureaucratic bs that they have very little opportunity to deviate from what they are being told they must teach.

In the end, all we can do is try to be positive role models for our students and present them with the materials they are required to know for the standardized tests. It is a shame...

Let me stress that I am not against what has been done in WI or TN regarding education. I feel educators should be held acceptable for their results. There are many factors that influence those results that are not currently considered.

So Brad, why are educators bound by bureaucratic BS? Because they are GOVERNMENT schools. Government can do things effectively or efficiently, but never both. Education keeps eroding because of well-intended policies driven down from politicians, not educators in the Federal and State DOE's. Because we are catering to the lowest common denominator, we drag the quality of education down for all students.
Too many people in the country feel that if we reward excellence and do not reward poor performance for students and teachers, we are somehow being "unfair". So we get what we have today.

mngundog
03-17-2012, 10:37 AM
I'm sure you are intelligent enough to see that sports heros, CEOs and finance folks are paid by the free market. Those people are paid by their employers (not WE, as you stated) based on perceived value and market conditions. Government employees are paid based on budgets regulated by politicians and funded by tax payers. That's where the problem comes in.
And I'm sure that you are intelligent enough to see that when the tax payers pay billions for stadiums, trillions in bank bailouts, that money is coming out of our taxpayer pockets and into the hands of atheletes, CEOs and finance folks.

Brad Turner
03-17-2012, 11:38 AM
So Brad, why are educators bound by bureaucratic BS? Because they are GOVERNMENT schools. Government can do things effectively or efficiently, but never both. Education keeps eroding because of well-intended policies driven down from politicians, not educators in the Federal and State DOE's. Because we are catering to the lowest common denominator, we drag the quality of education down for all students.
Too many people in the country feel that if we reward excellence and do not reward poor performance for students and teachers, we are somehow being "unfair". So we get what we have today.

Yes, because the states do everything they can to get money from the federal government with attached stipulations, like no child left behind. No matter how hard we try, all of our students will not grow up to be engineers or doctors and there is nothing wrong with that. Our country needs carpenters and janitors too, which are both respectable ways of earning a living.

road kill
03-17-2012, 05:00 PM
I guess it makes sense that we pay sports heros, CEOs, and finance folks top dollar, because after-all, they might take their talent elsewhere. But when it comes to educating out kids, THAT isn't important. We the taxpayers need protection damn it! Who cares if we just ride this great country into the ground. What is mine is mine and I don't want no freak'in teacher getting his or her mitts on it.

Penny wise and pound foolish.
The State of WI pays no sports heros.
They have no CEO's on the payroll.
We did not "bail out" any institutions either.

Now......I see you didn't list anyone from Hollywood.
(of course Alec Baldwin, Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins aren't on the state payroll either)

Are you saying that the teachers here in WI are not adequately compensated??:confused:




RK

BonMallari
03-17-2012, 05:23 PM
the teaching profession used to be a very honorable one that was attractive to many college graduates back in the 70's early 80's,had a couple of family members enter into it, and my son's mom is a current elementary school teacher....but somewhere along the way, teachers salaries did not go up accordingly with those other professions with the same amount of education..not quite sure why..but the profession no longer attracts the type of individuals that are needed to do the job properly, especially when those teachers can make more waiting tables,working in sales, or just about any other job out there

will increasing salaries solve the problem....absolutely not

will removing tenure solve the problem...maybe

will removing or elimination the teachers union help....sure wouldnt hurt

there are a lot of excess fat that needs to be trimmed in the schools, unfortunately they always seem to trim the activities that do the most good, like afterschool activities that keep kids off the streets and out of trouble...but yet they have a whole plethora of "specialists" at the school, whose only job is to teach a handful of kids with deficiencies in a particular subject, while the rank and file teacher slugs it out and does the lions share of the work

rant over...

junbe
03-17-2012, 05:56 PM
Hey Guys and Gals! I have spent over 30 years teaching in Wisconsin. I even taught teachers how to teach. Do you remember the saying in the 50's: "Those who can--do; those who can't--teach; those who can't teach--teach teachers." I certainly have an opinion on what is going on in Wisconsin and would like to solve the problem--but I'm too busy training my dogs.

Buzz
03-17-2012, 07:30 PM
there are a lot of excess fat that needs to be trimmed in the schools, unfortunately they always seem to trim the activities that do the most good, like afterschool activities that keep kids off the streets and out of trouble...but yet they have a whole plethora of "specialists" at the school, whose only job is to teach a handful of kids with deficiencies in a particular subject, while the rank and file teacher slugs it out and does the lions share of the work

rant over...


From the little I've looked into it, it seems that there has been an explosion in cost of administrators in the school systems.

Buzz
03-17-2012, 07:32 PM
Hey Guys and Gals! I have spent over 30 years teaching in Wisconsin. I even taught teachers how to teach. Do you remember the saying in the 50's: "Those who can--do; those who can't--teach; those who can't teach--teach teachers." I certainly have an opinion on what is going on in Wisconsin and would like to solve the problem--but I'm too busy training my dogs.

I spent about 6 hours out training dogs today. Then I came home and tried to get on the internet and woke up in the chair in front of the monitor about a half hour later. :mad: I must be getting old or something...

Marvin S
03-17-2012, 10:12 PM
I spent about 6 hours out training dogs today. Then I came home and tried to get on the internet and woke up in the chair in front of the monitor about a half hour later. :mad: I must be getting old or something...

Or a really comfortable chair :)?

menmon
03-19-2012, 11:16 AM
HMMMMM......

Yes Buzz, you have caught we the tax payers (who do NOT matter).

A handful of teachers (dedicated professionals caring ONLY about the students) have left or retired (only to return and "double dip").

Incidently, the handful of openings for teaching position have drawn hundreds and in some cases thousands of qualified applicants seeking the vacant positions.

But hey, it is much more fun to attach some misguided emotion to the topic other than the logic of WE DON'T HAVE THE MONEY!!!

Over 80% of the states budget is payroll.
What else would you adjust to make up a BILLION$$$ deficitwe HAD in the budget???
(our budget is now balanced)


Can't wait to hear it!!!!:D

RK

Raise your taxes;-)

My guess is someone bitched about the taxes when they were financing the education of your kids too.

Your rush of applicants for these teacher jobs are the ones that lost their jobs somewhere else. When I hire a kennel hand I don't hire one that use to work at another kennel because there is a reason they are not there.

menmon
03-19-2012, 11:21 AM
I'm sure you are intelligent enough to see that sports heros, CEOs and finance folks are paid by the free market. Those people are paid by their employers (not WE, as you stated) based on perceived value and market conditions. Government employees are paid based on budgets regulated by politicians and funded by tax payers. That's where the problem comes in.
You want teachers to get paid, get the government out of the education business and let the market determine teacher pay. Then the good teachers would be compensated and the bad teachers would become hairdressers.
I'm one of the "less fortunate" who pay for poor government schools through my property taxes and still pay private school tuition because I actually care that my children get a proper education. I guess it could be worse. I could be one of those people who pay for public schools my entire life and never have children.
The problem isn't that we need to "fix" the public education system. That's like saying we need to "fix" the problems with steam-driven automobiles. The system doesn't need to be fixed. It needs to be replaced.

It isn't just about educating our own children. It is about community. If you have an educated community, you have a more productive less problimatic community. Education is not what you want to cut.

Answer this question, have your taxes declined after firing your teachers?

BonMallari
03-19-2012, 11:23 AM
When I hire a kennel hand I don't hire one that use to work at another kennel because there is a reason they are not there.


Gee, guess it couldn't be that their previous employer went out of business, or was unethical, or that they relocated to another state....so you would rather hire an unexperienced kennel person that may have only worked a retail job or been a waiter, instead of someone who actually has shoveled dog crap and knows that a bitch in heat needs to be aired separately from the males :p:p

paul young
03-19-2012, 11:37 AM
Gee, guess it couldn't be that their previous employer went out of business, or was unethical, or that they relocated to another state....so you would rather hire an unexperienced kennel person that may have only worked a retail job or been a waiter, instead of someone who actually has shoveled dog crap and knows that a bitch in heat needs to be aired separately from the males :p:p


now that there is a BRILLIANT piece of excrapolation!! ROTFLMAO!!-Paul

road kill
03-19-2012, 11:45 AM
It isn't just about educating our own children. It is about community. If you have an educated community, you have a more productive less problimatic community. Education is not what you want to cut.

Answer this question, have your taxes declined after firing your teachers?

Just call DA UNION, they will send you a top quality worker right away!!!
If you don't, a rep may visit and mention "dis is a nice place ya got here, would be a shame to see sumpin' happen to it!!!"


RK

luvmylabs23139
03-19-2012, 11:46 AM
Raise your taxes;-)

My guess is someone bitched about the taxes when they were financing the education of your kids too.

Your rush of applicants for these teacher jobs are the ones that lost their jobs somewhere else. When I hire a kennel hand I don't hire one that use to work at another kennel because there is a reason they are not there.


Well since I have no kids no one could bitch that they paid for my kids!!!!
Tell the breeder to pay for what they bred!!!

luvmylabs23139
03-19-2012, 11:48 AM
It isn't just about educating our own children. It is about community. If you have an educated community, you have a more productive less problimatic community. Education is not what you want to cut.

Answer this question, have your taxes declined after firing your teachers?


It is not the actual taxpayers problem. Tell the mutiplying rabbits to raise their own and leave the taxpayer alone!! They bred they feed it or not end of story!!!
If they are animals treat them as such. Put them in cages!

menmon
03-19-2012, 11:58 AM
Gee, guess it couldn't be that their previous employer went out of business, or was unethical, or that they relocated to another state....so you would rather hire an unexperienced kennel person that may have only worked a retail job or been a waiter, instead of someone who actually has shoveled dog crap and knows that a bitch in heat needs to be aired separately from the males :p:p

If you have good kennel help, you don't let them go.

Now clearly if someone relocated and had years experience and I spoke to their former employer and they spoke good of them, I would consider hiring them.

Remember this is a $9 to $10 hr job. Most apply because they think playing with dogs is easy. In fact I do everything I can to talk them out of the job, and then I have them do a working interview. Most of the job is cleaning and it is none stop.

I have a good list of people who grew tired of the work and left after a few months. I would not hire them again.

We do not air dogs together, and if a bitch is in heat, she is put in a luxury room, so she is completly isolated from the other dogs. If something is wrong with a dog, you tell me. I'll make the decision as to what if anything needs done. Would you trust critical decisions to someone that makes $9 per hour?

scott spalding
03-19-2012, 12:17 PM
It is not the actual taxpayers problem. Tell the mutiplying rabbits to raise their own and leave the taxpayer alone!! They bred they feed it or not end of story!!!
If they are animals treat them as such. Put them in cages!

Sounds like a great solution to the problem we can start rounding up the rabbits and put them in cages and treat them like animals. You are an Idiot but I am sure on some level you know that without me telling you. Give a real solution enough of this bull ****.

M&K's Retrievers
03-19-2012, 12:21 PM
Must be Monday. Sambo is back.

luvmylabs23139
03-19-2012, 12:36 PM
Sounds like a great solution to the problem we can start rounding up the rabbits and put them in cages and treat them like animals. You are an Idiot but I am sure on some level you know that without me telling you. Give a real solution enough of this bull ****.


The real problem is that people are having sex with no thought to the results of their actions thus those that can't care for a child are having children.
This included children having children.
The hard working taxpayer should not be forced by the gov't to pay for this.
As I said people must be held responsible for their actions.
It is actualy rather simple. Keep your legs closed if you can't pay for the results.
As for putting them in cages, yeah I will say that. I do not believe in section 8 as I had my condo property value destroyed by that and I had to pay for it with my tax dollars.
MY tax money paid for the animals to live across from me and below me and they broke all the rules and even the police would not enforce the laws.

menmon
03-19-2012, 01:54 PM
Must be Monday. Sambo is back.

I play with dogs on the weekends! You should try it;-)