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helencalif
05-05-2012, 05:53 PM
You could not make this up and be believed. For years Elizabeth Warren has claimed to be a minority (Native American, specifically Cherokee). For years she listed that she was Native American in Harvard's law directory. Apparently no one questioned that claim, including Harvard who touted it.

She never, not once, ever researched her ancestry to find out if there was any documentation to support family lore. (High cheekbones.)

Newspaper accounts on line say that a genealogist at the New England Genealogical Society found an 1894 marriage application which stated her great great great grandmother was listed as being Cherokee on the application. The problem with this reporting is ... I found one report that said that the actual document had not been found. What was found was a digital listing.

A digital listing (whatever that really was) is not proof as any genealogist knows. If someone went through marriage applications of the time period and abstracted the information and produced the digital listing, it could be wrong. The original document or a copy of the original document has to be found. Also, further research on the great great great grandmother needs to be done to confirm that the statement, if it was on the application, was correct. (The marriage application of 1894 was in Oklahoma.)

Frankly, the video of Warren's responses to questions about why she thought she was descended from a Native American raises the question as to her qualifications to be a senator. In the video she came off to me as being a complete airhead.

A Harvard professor an airhead? Watch the video.

Whether Democrat or Republican is not the point. Being a liar is.

Helen

helencalif
05-05-2012, 08:13 PM
Since posting, I have kept reading news articles on the net. THE LATEST... the Boston Globe followed up on the earlier reports that genealogist Christopher Child found an electronic listing of an 1894 marriage application for O. C. Sarah Smith, Elizabeth Warren's great great great grandmother. According to reports, the electronic listing of the application said she was Cherokee.

Based upon that... newspapers reported she's 1/32nd Cherokee.

FAST FORWARD. Somebody at the Boston Globe checked further. The genealogist could not produce any documentation and neither could the New England Genealogical Society.
(How did this snafu and false reporting happen in the first place?)

What has been found is a copy of the original 1894 marriage LICENSE. This document does not say what the bride's ancestry was.

So far no documentation whatsoever has been found. The earlier report saying she was Cherokee apparently was bogus.

Gerry Clinchy
05-05-2012, 08:20 PM
Ever wonder how these airheads get elected? Do any of their constituents ever listen to them speak?

helencalif
05-12-2012, 04:01 AM
Latest news... further research has revealed that Oklahoma did not issue marriage applications which is why no document exists. The marriage license does exist; it does not list any ethnicity for Elizabeth Warren's great great grandmother.

Sad, but true, genealogist Chris Childs of the New England Historical and Genealogical Society (NEHGS) used as his source information that was submitted to a 2006 family newsletter.

Uh, what is published in a family newsletter is not primary evidence. What was he thinking? The news wires and newspapers picked up this bogus information and published it.

Right now Mr. Childs is not answering emails or phone calls and the NEHGS appears to be backing as far away from this as it can get.

Helen
(genealogy has been my primary hobby since 1984)

Buzz
05-12-2012, 10:10 AM
Elizabeth is far from being an airhead, and anyone who would question her suitability to serve as senator over such an issue is reaching pretty far I'd say.

Same with Romney being called out on beibg a bully in high school.:rolleyes:

helencalif
05-12-2012, 10:22 AM
I am not saying she is not suitable to be a senator.

But when it comes to a person declaring for years that they are a minority -- a Native American -- based solely on family lore without doing a whit of research on her family history, she was an airhead.

Or would you prefer calling her a lying opportunist ?

Helen

M&K's Retrievers
05-12-2012, 11:02 AM
I am not saying she is not suitable to be a senator.

But when it comes to a person declaring for years that they are a minority -- a Native American -- based solely on family lore without doing a whit of research on her family history, she was an airhead.

Or would you prefer calling her a lying opportunist ?

Helen

Touche!! :D

Uncle Bill
05-12-2012, 11:13 AM
Here's another bit of info to bolster your findings, Helen.

UB

Elizabeth Warren dances with lies


by Ann Coulter (http://www.humanevents.com/search.php?author_name=Ann+Coulter)

Elizabeth Warren, who also goes by her Indian name, "Lies on Race Box," is in big heap-um trouble. The earnest, reform-minded liberal running for Senate against Scott Brown, R-Mass., lied about being part-Cherokee to get a job at Harvard.

Harvard took full advantage of Warren's lie, bragging to The Harvard Crimson about her minority status during one of the near-constant student protests over insufficient "diversity" in the faculty. Warren also listed herself as an Indian in law school faculty directories and, just last month, said, "I am very proud of my Native American heritage."

Except, oops, she has no more evidence that she's an Indian than that buffoon out of Colorado, Ward Churchill.

The Boston Globe immediately leapt to Warren's defense, quoting a genealogist who found a marriage license on which Warren's great-great-uncle scribbled that his mother, Warren's great-great-great grandmother, was a Cherokee. This is not part of the official marriage license. (If I scribble "Kenyan" on Obama's birth certificate, does that make it true?)

But let's say it's true. That would make Warren a dotriacontaroon -- 1/32nd Cherokee. That's her claim to affirmative action bonus points? You don't know what it's like to be 1/32nd Cherokee, to never have anyone to talk to, spending so many evenings home alone, wondering if there was some other 1/32nd Cherokee out there, perhaps looking at the same star I was.

Soon, however, the preponderance of the evidence suggested she wasn't even 1/32nd Cherokee. The census records for 1860 list the allegedly Cherokee great-great-great-grandmother, O.C. Sarah Smith Crawford, as "white." Also, Warren's family isn't listed in the Cherokee registry. (Unlike Democrat voter rolls, to be on the Cherokee list, proof is required.)

On the other hand, we have what her son scribbled on his marriage license -- something, by the way, that none of his siblings claimed about their mother.


So now we're down to Warren's reminiscence that her great-aunt used to point to a portrait of her great-great-grandfather and call him an Indian, noting his high cheekbones.

Family lore is not proof. Proof is contemporary documentation, produced under penalty of perjury, such as a census record. My mother told me she found me under a rock, but I don't put that on job applications.

The universities that employed Warren rushed to claim that her fake Indian ancestry had nothing to do with it. They speak with forked tongue, causing heap-um laughter. (Harvard was so desperate for diversity, it made a half-black dilettante president of the Harvard Law Review!)

To grasp what a sin against political correctness this is, consider the Jesuitical debates about blackness regularly engaged in at our universities. About the time Lies on Race Box was getting a job with Harvard as a fake Indian -- valued for her fake hunting and tracking skills -- a debate broke out at Northwestern University law school about whether a potential faculty hire was black enough.

One professor wrote a heated three-page letter to the hiring committee complaining that the recruit "should not be considered a black candidate," explaining, "(n)ot all with dark skins are black," nor should they be considered "black in the U.S. context." (Flash to: My exact position on Obama.)

Warren has defended herself, claiming she did it only so she would be invited to powwows, or what the great white father calls "meetings," saying she hoped "I would be invited to a luncheon, a group something that might happen with people who are like I am."

What on earth does "people who are like I am" mean? Let's invite Elizabeth because she's 1/32nd Cherokee. We really need the 1/32nd Cherokee perspective around here. Maybe she has some old recipes that are 1/32nd Cherokee!

Then, the Warren campaign claimed it was sexist to question Warren about her bald-faced lie: "Once again, the qualifications and ability of a woman are being called into question by Scott Brown ... It's outrageous."

First, Scott Brown has barely mentioned Warren's stinking lie.

But, second, the only people who consider it a "qualification" to be 1/32nd Cherokee are university hiring committees. Possible Warren campaign speech:

"I am a dotriacontaroon American. I want to be a voice for those who are 1/32nd Cherokee, but also 1/32nd Pequot, 1/32nd Mohawk -- basically the senator for all dotriacontaroons. Isn't it time we had a senator who was 1/32nd Cherokee?"

Now it's beginning to look like her ancestors not only did not suffer, but caused the suffering she's getting the benefit of. The great-great-great-grandfather married to the not-Cherokee O.C. Sarah Smith Crawford turns out to have been one of the white enforcers on the brutal Trail of Tears, helping round up Indians from their homes in order to march them to a less desirable part of the country.

What's next?

"Yes, and my other grandfather, Theophilus Connor ..."

BULL CONNOR?

"Yes, but I swear, James Earl Ray is not a BLOOD uncle. We're related only by marriage. At least that's what my cousin John Wayne Gacy used to always tell me."

Warren's lie is outrageous enough to someone like me, who isn't a fan of race-based affirmative action programs. Still, she is a liar, and she stole the credit of someone else's suffering.

For liberals, it should be a mortal sin: Elizabeth Warren cheated on affirmative action.

Buzz
05-12-2012, 11:24 AM
I am not saying she is not suitable to be a senator.

But when it comes to a person declaring for years that they are a minority -- a Native American -- based solely on family lore without doing a whit of research on her family history, she was an airhead.

Or would you prefer calling her a lying opportunist ?

Helen

I have been saying that I'm german all my life without doing any research, so I'm an airhead too. Having worked for years for a big German electrical manufacturer, and everyone thinking I was German and all, I suppose that makes me an opportunist too.

dixidawg
05-12-2012, 11:31 AM
We have photographic proof!!


http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t215/dixidawg/Tonto.jpg

J Hoggatt
05-12-2012, 11:35 AM
I have been saying that I'm german all my life without doing any research, so I'm an airhead too. Having worked for years for a big German electrical manufacturer, and everyone thinking I was German and all, I suppose that makes me an opportunist too.

Good Question.

I think it depends on one’s intent or motivation -- only "the person" knows--
In politics--- I guess it is fair game for us to speculate and for them to disprove

Uncle Bill
05-12-2012, 11:38 AM
I have been saying that I'm german all my life without doing any research, so I'm an airhead too.
Absolutely...certainly in this context!

Having worked for years for a big German electrical manufacturer, and everyone thinking I was German and all, I suppose that makes me an opportunist too.

But of course!!

You may, however, not claim to be a prevaricator as an opportunist, but that won't stop the rest of us from calling you an Obama sycophant. Between you and the Minnesota Sarge, (and mebbe you can get him to 'splain what he was Sarge of???) and that famous Oracle of I-HOP, you are gathering quit a batch of 'ilk' on RTF.:rolleyes:




Since this seems to be in vogue when answering lefties...my comments are in RED.

UB

Uncle Bill
05-12-2012, 11:43 AM
We have photographic proof!!


http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t215/dixidawg/Tonto.jpg



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! GREAT!!! But now you've opened another can of worms...was Tonto really Cherokee?

Elizabeth certainly has masculine looking hands, Kemo Sabe!;-)


UB

road kill
05-12-2012, 11:59 AM
I have been saying that I'm german all my life without doing any research, so I'm an airhead too. Having worked for years for a big German electrical manufacturer, and everyone thinking I was German and all, I suppose that makes me an opportunist too.

Are you claiming this was an innocent mistake?
Are you claiming this was NOT a claculated maneuver to garner a sympathetic vote from the other bleeding heart progressives?:cool:

Could you splain?:D

Standing by...............


RK

dixidawg
05-12-2012, 12:05 PM
It was an honest mistake

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/05/11/Exclusive-Harvard-EEOC-Report-1999-Listed-Warren-as-Native-American

A newly revealed document taken from a 1999 Affirmative Action Plan Book published by Harvard University indicates that Elizabeth Warren was officially listed as a Native American by Harvard Law School. Though Warren is not mentioned by name, the report shows just one Native American member of the law school. Reports in the Harvard Crimson from 1996 and 1998 both identify Warren as the Native American member of the staff.

dixidawg
05-12-2012, 12:10 PM
As I pointed out in my article here on Sunday, no evidence supports this claim. O.C. Sarah Smith Crawford had no Cherokee heritage, was listed as "white" in the Census of 1860, and was most likely half Swedish and half English, Scottish, or German, or some combination thereof. (Note, the actual 1894 marriage license makes no claim of Cherokee ancestry.)
But the most stunning discovery about the life of O.C. Sarah Smith Crawford is that her husband, Ms. Warren's great-great-great grandfather, was apparently a member of the Tennessee Militia who rounded up Cherokees from their family homes in the Southeastern United States and herded them into government-built stockades in what was then called Ross’s Landing (now Chattanooga), Tennessee—the point of origin for the horrific Trail of Tears, which began in January, 1837.


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/05/08/Elizabeth-Warren-Ancestor-Trail-of-Tears

Gerry Clinchy
05-12-2012, 12:21 PM
I think that in Oklahoma, it might be likely that many families had intermingled with the Native Americans in marriage. So, it's not a far-fetched possibility.

However, does 1/32 genetics qualify as a "minority status", even if it is true?

Buzz, I'd expect that your claim to being German might be based on surnames occurring in your family tree. That might be more evidence than Warren has to go by. I'd expect that workers with German-based names are not exactly considered a minority in the U.S.

In my area, there are MANY German-based names, as the area was settled by German immigrants. Today it would be highly unlikely that there is any special opportunity one would get for simply having a German-based ethnicity. Does anyone keep track of how many of German, Italian, French, Irish, etc. heritage are employed in your company?

However, when one claims an "official" "minority status" there are benefits that can accrue, especially it would seem, in the fields of academia and politics.

Marvin S
05-12-2012, 12:22 PM
I have been saying that I'm german all my life without doing any research, so I'm an airhead too. Having worked for years for a big German electrical manufacturer, and everyone thinking I was German and all, I suppose that makes me an opportunist too.

FWIW - I will vouch for your German-ness, on some issues you are living proof :).

I had a very good friend who was German - BSME - intelligent to a fault, yet unable to reconcile some issues logically though the proof faced him in fact. You fit that MO very well - it seems to be a German thing :-P.

ARay11
05-12-2012, 12:44 PM
As I pointed out in my article here on Sunday, no evidence supports this claim. O.C. Sarah Smith Crawford had no Cherokee heritage, was listed as "white" in the Census of 1860, and was most likely half Swedish and half English, Scottish, or German, or some combination thereof. (Note, the actual 1894 marriage license makes no claim of Cherokee ancestry.)
But the most stunning discovery about the life of O.C. Sarah Smith Crawford is that her husband, Ms. Warren's great-great-great grandfather, was apparently a member of the Tennessee Militia who rounded up Cherokees from their family homes in the Southeastern United States and herded them into government-built stockades in what was then called Ross’s Landing (now Chattanooga), Tennessee—the point of origin for the horrific Trail of Tears, which began in January, 1837.


http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/05/08/Elizabeth-Warren-Ancestor-Trail-of-Tears


I am not sure of Ms Warren's intentions...but something we should keep in mind:
1894 was a wild time in Oklahoma history. We weren't even a state yet, only a territory. Truly the wild wild west. Many family history documents (including my own family) were not kept, or were lost.
During that time, being an "indian" was a bad idea. Many Indians who were "white" enough to pass, were quickly married to white men in order to save their own lives. (O.C. Sara Smith may have been married to a white Tennessee militia man, perhaps not for love, but for survival) Being "on the roll" as an Indian made you a target. It was the lowest life form you could be.

Children of Indian/White marriages were quickly claimed as "white" with no Indian ethnicity (even though the truths were known inside the family) This was to save the children from ridicule, allow them to attend schools, get them medical care, and basically to be able to survive period.

Now, if Ms Warren wants to claim her Indian Heritage, that's ok by me. But, if she wants to use it as a "race card" she should have thought this out a bit better. If she were claiming to be Cherokee, she should have been prepared to show her CDIB card.

Today, being an Indian here in Oklahoma has massive benefits. From free housing, free college tuition, free medical care, dental care, optical care, free free free you name it. The tribes are incredibly wealthy and gaining power politically. But, to qualify, you MUST have your CDIB card. To claim Indian without your card is a slap in the face to Indians today. And they DO NOT appreciate it. They understand you may have Indian Heritage (most of us in OKlahoma do) but you better not go throwing it around for personal gain if you dont have a card.

charly_t
05-12-2012, 05:39 PM
I am not sure of Ms Warren's intentions...but something we should keep in mind:
1894 was a wild time in Oklahoma history. We weren't even a state yet, only a territory. Truly the wild wild west. Many family history documents (including my own family) were not kept, or were lost.
During that time, being an "indian" was a bad idea. Many Indians who were "white" enough to pass, were quickly married to white men in order to save their own lives. (O.C. Sara Smith may have been married to a white Tennessee militia man, perhaps not for love, but for survival) Being "on the roll" as an Indian made you a target. It was the lowest life form you could be.

Children of Indian/White marriages were quickly claimed as "white" with no Indian ethnicity (even though the truths were known inside the family) This was to save the children from ridicule, allow them to attend schools, get them medical care, and basically to be able to survive period.

Now, if Ms Warren wants to claim her Indian Heritage, that's ok by me. But, if she wants to use it as a "race card" she should have thought this out a bit better. If she were claiming to be Cherokee, she should have been prepared to show her CDIB card.

Today, being an Indian here in Oklahoma has massive benefits. From free housing, free college tuition, free medical care, dental care, optical care, free free free you name it. The tribes are incredibly wealthy and gaining power politically. But, to qualify, you MUST have your CDIB card. To claim Indian without your card is a slap in the face to Indians today. And they DO NOT appreciate it. They understand you may have Indian Heritage (most of us in OKlahoma do) but you better not go throwing it around for personal gain if you dont have a card.

Good post !

For others on here here is a true story with court records to back it up.

First my maternal grandparents were married before statehood in OK. Court house where license was bought burned. We all figured that record was gone. Not so. A very good genealogist found a record in another town where records were sent before statehood. I don't remember there being a listing of native American on the license record however.

Other side ( paternal ) of the family are Cherokee by blood but not on the rolls. When the final tally was made if you were not within the boundaries of Indian Territory you could not be placed on the final roll. My grandfather was in the correct area but his Mother and Granmother were not. They applied for that final roll as a family group but his Mother was 2/3 of a mile north of the KS state line ( that was an area that had once belonged to the Cherokee tribe ). His Grandmother was in Ark. ( in an area that once belonged to the Cherokee tribe ). Court records were found where Grandpa sued the tribe to get his name on the final roll. It states that we are Cherokee but we could not be put on the roll for those reasons stated. I believe that Grandpa should have sued the U.S. government instead. Our family was told that they could fix the problem for a certain sum of money before grandpa sued. A lady later told me that the story was in a book. I found it and it was told by a distant relative and he named the sum ( many years ago ) as $200. I claim my heritage. I can tell you that many people failed to get registered in OK. Some tried to get on the rolls to get land and they were not Native American at all so the Cherokees think that some people are not Cherokees who claim to be.
Rightly or wrongly they don't want to hear our stories. Modern DNA could clear up some of these stories but of course would not get anyone on the proper roll.

helencalif
05-12-2012, 06:13 PM
I have been saying that I'm german all my life without doing any research, so I'm an airhead too.

Why have you been saying all of your life that you are German?

Why not spend some time researching your family history so you know who you really are?

A German surname, a French sounding name etc. while they may indicate ancestral origins, there is no guarantee that is wh0 you are.

For example: my husband's maternal grandfather had a German surname which was passed down in the family for 3 generations as a surname. Factually speaking, his grandfather was not German. The grandfather's natural father was Irish or Scots Irish.

It was his step-father who was German. When his mother married the step-father, his German surname was used by him and not the natural father's Irish or Scots Irish "Mc" surname.

Another for example which is in my family...

My mother told me she thought my father was German because his parents "spoke funny". They had accents that apparently sounded German to her and her mother in law spoke very broken English.

The truth: my father's mother (my paternal grandmother) was Norwegian born and raised. She spoken Norwegian in the home and never quite conquered English. She immigrated to America in 1898 at age 19 to join her father and a brother who had settled on a farm in Minnesota. That's where she met my paternal grandfather who was born and raised in a Minnesota farm community. He grew up surrounded by Germans and Norwegians. I guess his "Minnesota speech" and her Norwegian speech sounded German to my Oregon-born and raised mother.

My research has proven that my father's surname is English. I am the 12th generation. Idescend from a Devon-Somerset, England, mariner who arrived in Maine aboard a fishing vessel in 1643. By 1666, he, his English wife, and their children lived in Salem, MA. My father's New England roots (Maine, MA, CT, and Vermont) were English on both sides for over 200 years.

Helen

helencalif
05-12-2012, 06:40 PM
DNA testing is simple. Order a testing kit from the company which specializes in Native American ancestry, pay for the kit, swab the inside of your cheeks with the swabs they provide, then mail them in and wait for the results.

My husband has had a DNA test done to confirm his Y-DNA "paper trail" ancestry. He is not Native American; he was tested to have his DNA results compared to other males with his surname whose research indicate they also descend from the same male immigrant. After spending 15 years researching to prove my husband's paternal Graves line, I was holding my breath until his DNA results arrived. WHEW, he is a perfect match with the other DNA tested male Graves who descend from John Graves who arrived in Concord, MA, in 1643.

I had made no mistakes in my research and there were no surprises in 12 generations. In other words, no illegitimate births and no adoptions. The fathers on paper were the natural fathers per DNA testing.

Helen

charly_t
05-12-2012, 06:52 PM
Have had my DNA tested twice ( more comprehensive one the last time ). MtDNA only. I was trying to find out just what my Maternal Grandmother was hiding. I still don't have the answer to that guestion but I think she was part Cherokee also. And I'm not going to pretend that I understand about the DNA testing. Last one was the 23andMe so I do have some relatives showing up but mostly no answers to how we are related ( etc. ).

BonMallari
05-12-2012, 07:02 PM
my BIL did our family geneaology and uncovered a few family secrets, which were never discussed at least to me, kind of disturbed me for a bit but when I sat and talked with some family members about it, I realized it was long before I was born and had no bearing on me...it could be a very interesting and time consuming hobby

charly_t
05-13-2012, 12:11 AM
I love the searches but hate the organizing all the stuff after I find it. Finally got smart and paid a lady to do some of it. I have someone else's work on the Sears side in a good sized, hardbound book. Lots of us have shared info over the years but I have a Great-grandmother on Dad's maternal side who seems to have popped up full grown and married my great-grandfather the same day vbg. I have searched for info on her for many years. Nothing. We
did DNA test a cousin to get the straight maternal line back to her but still haven't found anyone who has any actual link to us that we have found. Bought a book on my Mother's paternal side that the genealogist found advertised. I got some DNA info that proved something that my dad had repeated years ago to me after a relative had made a chance remark at a family reunion. Dad was not present but the remark was told to him. I rather think that one line carries Gypsy connections but other than the DNA I had never heard that from anyone. My lines carry just about any mix one can think of. I am happy to claim anyone who was an honest hardworking person.
I am not so happy to claim a few. ;-)

road kill
05-17-2012, 03:45 PM
Turns out Elizabeth Warren is a LIAR!!!







Cherokee Genealogist To Elizabeth Warren: "Tell The Truth"


WKRO-AM's Howie Carr spoke with Twyla Barnes, a Cherokee genealogist who runs a blog dedicated to Cherokee affairs and who has researched Elizabeth Warren's genealogy and has found absolutely no evidence of any Indian heritage. She said Elizabeth needs to apologize to the Cherokees, to all Native Americans and to the voters for perpetrating a fraud.

In her blog Twyla Barnes reached out to Elizabeth Warren and said "It seems you would like the “attacks” against your claims of Cherokee ancestry to stop so I thought I would offer some advice on how to make it stop. Tell the truth…. "



But it FEEEEELS good!!!;-)

BonMallari
05-17-2012, 05:46 PM
Warren must have figured she could get away with it since the current POTUS still claims he was born in Hawaii, and knows the media would never call her on it :rolleyes::rolleyes:

gman0046
05-17-2012, 06:23 PM
She's a Native American just like Obama's an American.

ARay11
05-17-2012, 06:29 PM
[quote=gman0046;968062]She's a Native American-ish just like Obama's American-ish.

:razz:

BonMallari
05-17-2012, 06:37 PM
I'm waiting for her to claim she is a descendant of the great native son of Oklahoma, Jim Thorpe....

helencalif
05-18-2012, 06:10 PM
Twyla Barnes -- the Cherokee woman who is also a genealogist familiar with and experienced in researching Cherokee ancestry-- was on Fox News today (Friday, May 18). She was very clear and concise with her statements. Elizabeth Warren's ancestry has been researched and there are no Cherokees. She feels that Elizabeth Warren needs to tell the truth and apologize to the Cherokee people for saying she was Native American when she is not.

With everything that has surfaced, I do not understand how anyone can still maintain how proud they are of their Native American heritage when they have no Native American heritage.

dixidawg
05-18-2012, 06:16 PM
You mean she's a Fauxcahontas??????

mngundog
05-18-2012, 06:32 PM
I'm waiting for her to claim she is a descendant of the great native son of Oklahoma, Jim Thorpe....
Do you mean the French/Irish/Indian Jim Thorpe Olympic gold medalist who was born without a birth certificate, who may or maynot be from Oklahoma?

dixidawg
05-19-2012, 09:13 AM
Howie Carr has more....

http://bostonherald.com/news/columnists/view/20220519lizs_recipes_sound_familiar/