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View Full Version : Why should the leaches be allowed ot vote?



luvmylabs23139
06-05-2012, 01:09 PM
LIberals how do you defend this grand theft?????

I would love to know why thowse that leach off of the taxpayer are alouded to vote to steal the taxpayers money while they sit back on their fat asses??? I just want a real reason as to how it is fair that I bust my butt while they just mutiply like rabbits and somehow have a right to steal what I worked for?

charly_t
06-05-2012, 01:33 PM
LIberals how do you defend this grand theft?????

I would love to know why thowse that leach off of the taxpayer are alouded to vote to steal the taxpayers money while they sit back on their fat asses??? I just want a real reason as to how it is fair that I bust my butt while they just mutiply like rabbits and somehow have a right to steal what I worked for?

My view is that it is difficult to bar those who really need to be barred. Not trying to start a fight but there are some who would want keep we old foggies from voting who are on SS. I have a friend who just went on dissability after many years of ill health. Where do we draw the line.

paul young
06-05-2012, 02:14 PM
My view is that it is difficult to bar those who really need to be barred. Not trying to start a fight but there are some who would want keep we old foggies from voting who are on SS. I have a friend who just went on dissability after many years of ill health. Where do we draw the line.

it's not difficult, it's illegal.

the line is clearly drawn already. if you are a citizen of majority age, you have the right to vote. but you knew that.

Uncle Bill
06-05-2012, 02:27 PM
A new word has been developed for understanding what's going on in this nation..."IDIOTOCRACY"! This is what we have to deal with today. The Founders only allowed land owners...the producers...to vote. They knew the Republic would not survive if everyone was allowed to vote, but this is where we are, and why this years elections are so important.

If the SFN Democrats/Socialists win, it will be impossible to get this nation back into the hands of the conservatives...the believers of what the Founders had in mind. Should the SFN crowd...epitomized by the OWS fools...take over, you will have voted in the ultimate Greece-styled country.

UB

HPL
06-05-2012, 02:30 PM
it's not difficult, it's illegal.

the line is clearly drawn already. if you are a citizen of majority age, you have the right to vote. but you knew that.


But it has not always been so. Not necessarily what the framers had in mind, you know. Eighteen to Twenty-one year olds have only had the vote a bit over 30 years I think, and less than 100 since women got the vote. I believe that there used to be other requirements (like poll taxes and property requirements) also. Don't forget that prohibition was once that law of the land, but was repealed, so just because that's the way it is now, means neither that it is the way it always was, nor that it is the way it must always be.

paul young
06-05-2012, 02:49 PM
But it has not always been so. Not necessarily what the framers had in mind, you know. Eighteen to Twenty-one year olds have only had the vote a bit over 30 years I think, and less than 100 since women got the vote. I believe that there used to be other requirements (like poll taxes and property requirements) also. Don't forget that prohibition was once that law of the land, but was repealed, so just because that's the way it is now, means neither that it is the way it always was, nor that it is the way it must always be.

well, then, go for it! write to your congressman and senators and tell them you want an ammendment passed that only allows people from Texas with the initials "HPL" the right to vote. that way you can be sure that the right people are electing the right people. otherwise, well, who knows?

Franco
06-05-2012, 03:45 PM
I would be happy with;

1) Voter ID. I can't believe that there are states that don't require this and should be mandatory in all 50 states.
2) In order to vote, one must pass a basic Civics test in English. Nothing too easy as the applicant must have a basic understanding of how a Republic works.

charly_t
06-05-2012, 03:51 PM
it's not difficult, it's illegal.

the line is clearly drawn already. if you are a citizen of majority age, you have the right to vote. but you knew that.

Get up on the wrong side of the bed this a.m. did you........I was thinking more along the lines of a poll tax but with some modifications. Of course that is against the law anymore but who knows what we might be able to change...........ummmmm. You don't work you don't eat. A lot of people can do something somewhere. If you don't work and can we might just say "you don't work at something or prove unable to work you don't vote".

P.S. Poll tax was once where you could 'work it off'. Of course I'm sure you knew that already.

BonMallari
06-05-2012, 04:03 PM
LIberals how do you defend this grand theft?????

I would love to know why thowse that leach off of the taxpayer are alouded to vote to steal the taxpayers money while they sit back on their fat asses??? I just want a real reason as to how it is fair that I bust my butt while they just mutiply like rabbits and somehow have a right to steal what I worked for?


its very difficult to give most of your political rants anything more than a passing glance, your anger offsets any chance at having an intelligent discussion, you tend to show a certain amount of bigotry and were it not for the fact that there are safeguards in place your language toward those groups which you despise would be different..

you always seem to equate "leeches" with those that dont pay what in your mind is a fair share, How would you like it if we judged you as an alien with no rights since you are not a citizen and therefore have no say so on the political outcome of things....

If you want people to take you seriously and give your rants some merit, you might be best served by bringing something of substance instead of your usual tirade which smacks of bigotry and racism...

Not everything in this world is based on the almighty dollar or one's social standing

menmon
06-05-2012, 04:06 PM
The founders did not get everything right. Women could not vote either, because they viewed them as property like their slaves.

Every American should be able to vote, no mater what his personal wealth is, period..........

huntinman
06-05-2012, 04:08 PM
The founders did not get everything right. Women could not vote either, because they viewed them as property like their slaves.

Every American should be able to vote, no mater what his personal wealth is, period..........

Bingo!! But they should have to prove it at the polling place!

Franco
06-05-2012, 04:18 PM
The founders did not get everything right. Women could not vote either, because they viewed them as property like their slaves.

Every American should be able to vote, no mater what his personal wealth is, period..........

Actually, I think they had it right but, in our attempt to be PC we screwed it up.
:rolleyes:

Women tend to be too emotional to vote objectively.:D

menmon
06-05-2012, 04:23 PM
Franco...you must me single...because I would not say that out loud or I would find myself asking for wellfare and a box to live in.

Marvin S
06-05-2012, 04:25 PM
Sitting in a tavern, in a middle class community, one evening I voiced the opinion that only those who were owners of property should be allowed a vote on taxation as they were the payers. A black guy, also a member of that middle class community, proceeded to give me about an long lecture about the poor oppressed black folk. No mention of the group that occupied this country initially, nor those hard working thrifty people sent to internment camps during WWII who eventually lost their property because of their absence, just the poor oppressed black folk. At the time I did not have the level of history behind me I have today. That most of the black people were here because they were sold as slaves by someone of their same color nor that white people who did not believe as others did laid down their lives for the black peoples freedom to be free like the rest of us. My history lessons are still evolving but I will only say the discussion would no longer be as one sided as originally.


Bon I agree with your assessment, but Luvy is now a citizen. She no longer needs to rant like an OWS charter member, she is now able to do something on her own. Unless she learns to be more civil in her presentation she will never draw an audience.

charly_t
06-05-2012, 04:26 PM
Actually, I think they had it right but, in our attempt to be PC we screwed it up.
:rolleyes:

Women tend to be too emotional to vote objectively.:D


'Done quit preachin' and gone to meddlin' vbg

luvmylabs23139
06-05-2012, 04:35 PM
Actually I am a citizen, and have been for several weeks.
I could care lesss if it is a purple people eater but if they pay no federal taxes then they leech from taxpayers.
Take section 8, welfare, food stamps, medicaid then they are leeches, it has nothing to do with race. The problem is those who take from taxpayers vote to take more from taxpayers.
I do not consider SS for retirees in this as they paid in an earned that money.

huntinman
06-05-2012, 04:43 PM
Actually I am a citizen, and have been for several weeks.
I could care lesss if it is a purple people eater but if they pay no federal taxes then they leech from taxpayers.
Take section 8, welfare, food stamps, medicaid then they are leeches, it has nothing to do with race. The problem is those who take from taxpayers vote to take more from taxpayers.
I do not consider SS for retirees in this as they paid in an earned that money.

I agree with Luvy on this and we are quickly getting to the point where those who are taking are going to be voting all of us who are paying regular increases in our tax rates, as if they weren't already.

BonMallari
06-05-2012, 05:01 PM
Actually I am a citizen, and have been for several weeks.
I could care lesss if it is a purple people eater but if they pay no federal taxes then they leech from taxpayers.
Take section 8, welfare, food stamps, medicaid then they are leeches it has nothing to do with race. The problem is those who take from taxpayers vote to take more from taxpayers.
I do not consider SS for retirees in this as they paid in an earned that money.

Then what is your SOLUTION ? let them die in streets,if you dont feed them they will become predatory and come into the neighborhoods and steal for food,shelter, and clothing...you will turn them into the type of animal that you are actually trying to prevent...its pie in the sky thinking that you can go poof and the homeless and downtrodden will go away...in many ways we created the monster, society cant ignore the problem

You cant herd them up and put them in camps,you cant eliminate (kill) them,we as a society have to be somewhat benevolent, its what separates us from the savages and third world countries..society will NEVER eliminate the problem, but it can control the problem by NOT making it more profitable to be on entitlements than being off them...when one can make more collecting welfare,disability or even unemployment than actually working something is very wrong...

Franco
06-05-2012, 05:15 PM
Franco...you must me single...because I would not say that out loud or I would find myself asking for wellfare and a box to live in.

I've been seeing the same women for years and I would say it in front of them. They just roll their eyes and call me funny names. My wife of 36 years is a totally different story!
;)

ARay11
06-05-2012, 05:21 PM
Actually, I think they had it right but, in our attempt to be PC we screwed it up.
:rolleyes:

Women tend to be too emotional to vote objectively.:D


Women have always voted... perhaps not at the actual election, but we have always had the power to sway the vote. ;)

luvmylabs23139
06-05-2012, 05:25 PM
Then what is your SOLUTION ? let them die in streets,if you dont feed them they will become predatory and come into the neighborhoods and steal for food,shelter, and clothing...you will turn them into the type of animal that you are actually trying to prevent...its pie in the sky thinking that you can go poof and the homeless and downtrodden will go away...in many ways we created the monster, society cant ignore the problem

You cant herd them up and put them in camps,you cant eliminate (kill) them,we as a society have to be somewhat benevolent, its what separates us from the savages and third world countries..society will NEVER eliminate the problem, but it can control the problem by NOT making it more profitable to be on entitlements than being off them...when one can make more collecting welfare,disability or even unemployment than actually working something is very wrong...


WE could start simple like getting rid of free cell phones. WE could feeed them but make it a bare needs food line they must stand in and give out bags of rice and beans. MAke it uncomfortable. NO section 8, put them in dorm type buildings again with bare needs no tv/s A/C etc. Provide basics not luxuries.
I bet at least some would then go get a job.

HPL
06-05-2012, 05:32 PM
well, then, go for it! write to your congressman and senators and tell them you want an ammendment passed that only allows people from Texas with the initials "HPL" the right to vote. that way you can be sure that the right people are electing the right people. otherwise, well, who knows?

Didn't say that I thought it would ever be possible to turn the tide back, just that things weren't always the way they are now.


I would be happy with;

1) Voter ID. I can't believe that there are states that don't require this and should be mandatory in all 50 states.
2) In order to vote, one must pass a basic Civics test in English. Nothing too easy as the applicant must have a basic understanding of how a Republic works.

Believe that I could get behind this idea in big way!!


The founders did not get everything right. Women could not vote either, because they viewed them as property like their slaves.

Every American should be able to vote, no mater what his personal wealth is, period..........

There are already classes of Americans that are not allowed to vote. One must be 18 to begin with, and one cannot have lost one's civil rights as a felon for another.


Actually I am a citizen, and have been for several weeks.
I could care lesss if it is a purple people eater but if they pay no federal taxes then they leech from taxpayers.
Take section 8, welfare, food stamps, medicaid then they are leeches, it has nothing to do with race. The problem is those who take from taxpayers vote to take more from taxpayers.
I do not consider SS for retirees in this as they paid in an earned that money.

Congratulations on acquiring you citizenship!! Welcome aboard!! so to speak.


I've been seeing the same women for years and I would say it in front of them. They just roll their eyes and call me funny names. My wife of 36 years is a totally different story!
;)

Man, I thought I had a tolerant wife!!

HPL

Franco
06-05-2012, 05:56 PM
Man, I thought I had a tolerant wife!!

HPL

She better be! I've known my mother and sister longer than her and my daughter is a female version of me. She is 110% for RP!

Gerry Clinchy
06-05-2012, 07:32 PM
Oh, and I have no problem with getting rid of what we call the "Obama phones" around here....

Actually, it is probably cheaper now to use limited-minutes cell phones than provide land lines. I think it's fair that there be a provision for emergencies like fire, crime or medical emergency.

HPL
06-05-2012, 08:30 PM
I don't think I read anywhere that Luv thinks that ALL folks who take some assistance are leeches (but I could be wrong). I too think that many folks on assistance are "playing the system" and it really annoys me to see someone using a Lonestar card to pay when they have junk food and more expensive meat cuts than I do in their carts. It also annoys me to see them put their groceries in a Yukon with 20" chrome wheels and low profile tires. Bugs me to see folks on assistance smoking or drinking. You may not be able to buy smokes or beer with the Lonestar card, but if you have money for those vices, you can damn well pay for your own groceries. I too am all for having a central food bank where those on assistance have to get their food and it is going to be limited to rice, beans, powdered milk, and whatever agricultural surpluses are available. I know plenty of folks trying to better themselves who eat Ramen noodles, pasta, beans, rice, bologna, and day old bread.

luvmylabs23139
06-05-2012, 10:24 PM
I don't think I read anywhere that Luv thinks that ALL folks who take some assistance are leeches (but I could be wrong). I too think that many folks on assistance are "playing the system" and it really annoys me to see someone using a Lonestar card to pay when they have junk food and more expensive meat cuts than I do in their carts. It also annoys me to see them put their groceries in a Yukon with 20" chrome wheels and low profile tires. Bugs me to see folks on assistance smoking or drinking. You may not be able to buy smokes or beer with the Lonestar card, but if you have money for those vices, you can damn well pay for your own groceries. I too am all for having a central food bank where those on assistance have to get their food and it is going to be limited to rice, beans, powdered milk, and whatever agricultural surpluses are available. I know plenty of folks trying to better themselves who eat Ramen noodles, pasta, beans, rice, bologna, and day old bread.


The finger nails really get me. If you can pay to go have your nails done all the time you can buy your own food.

luvmylabs23139
06-05-2012, 10:32 PM
Actually, it is probably cheaper now to use limited-minutes cell phones than provide land lines. I think it's fair that there be a provision for emergencies like fire, crime or medical emergency.

So recycle used cell phones and only let it dial 911.

luvmylabs23139
06-05-2012, 10:35 PM
Re-read post #16. It sure reads to me that the intent of the post is that IF A, THEN B; i.e., if you take assistance, then you are a leech.

I agree with you that some (probably more than half) play the system. However, there are those who do take assistance, who 1) don't want to, but are "aged out" of any realistic living wage, 2) don't want to, and are embarassed about the fact they need to to feed their children.

Then, in our state, we have the college students who have their welfare benefits and their medical marijuana cards, but are healthy enough to attend classes, party, play disc golf, shoot hoops, etc....

If half are scamming the system the system needs to kick those off.
There are the truly disable who should be helped, note I mean really disable not the oh my back hurts or whatever.

road kill
06-06-2012, 09:20 AM
Hopefully there is no literacy test!!!

Just sayin'.........

luvmylabs23139
06-06-2012, 10:10 AM
Hopefully there is no literacy test!!!

Just sayin'.........
The English language test for citizenship was a total joke. You're basically right out in the open so you can hear other people taking the test while waiting your turn. I had no idea what half the people in front of me were saying. Then they get to use a translator for the civics test. That should be in English only.
I do have to admit though that when they asked me to name one of my US senators the first thing that came to mind, but not what I answered, was John Edwards.

luvmylabs23139
06-06-2012, 01:42 PM
it's not difficult, it's illegal.

the line is clearly drawn already. if you are a citizen of majority age, you have the right to vote. but you knew that.
Yeah well the law needs to be changed. I thought you put me on ignore?
Now that you can't say anything to me about bitching as just( not really) a taxpayer but now I am a citizen
tell me why as a citizen taxpayer I should be content to pay for the welfare leaches? Tell me why those people should be allowed to vote to steal what I earned not them?
Tell me why now that I have a legal say beyond being a pissed taxpayer, that I should have agreed with the state of CT using my hard earned money to pay for the leech to live below me and across from me making my life a living hell via section 8?
Section 8 took my hard earned money and moved the leeches into the same condo complex as I was an owner in. Those animals should have been caged. They destroyed the place. You can call me whatever you want but when I had my car blocked by the welfare slime's brand new car and I could not go to work there are major issues. When I walked into the common hallway and vomited from pot smoke there is an issue.
Tell me why I should accept my taxpayer money paying for this crap???

menmon
06-06-2012, 01:58 PM
Man....you guys are finally paying some taxes and are complaining now. Don't forget that we paid your way through school and countless other things like parks to visit when you were kids...policemen to keep you safe...etc. Growup...we all get plenty for no more than we paid. This country runs itself like most handle their credit cards...we buy when we want not what we can afford. You guys listen way too much to Rush. He has created hatred amoung men so that he can sell ad spots.....wow....give me a break. So she cleaned a house for cash and got her nails done so she could act like a rich person...give her a break. You really believe that these people are having kids to collect checks....no they having them because they have nothing else to occupy their time

luvmylabs23139
06-06-2012, 02:29 PM
Man....you guys are finally paying some taxes and are complaining now. Don't forget that we paid your way through school and countless other things like parks to visit when you were kids...policemen to keep you safe...etc. Growup...we all get plenty for no more than we paid. This country runs itself like most handle their credit cards...we buy when we want not what we can afford. You guys listen way too much to Rush. He has created hatred amoung men so that he can sell ad spots.....wow....give me a break. So she cleaned a house for cash and got her nails done so she could act like a rich person...give her a break. You really believe that these people are having kids to collect checks....no they having them because they have nothing else to occupy their time
I've paid taxes since I was 16. I have never had a zero or negative federal or state lax liability.
I do not buy what I can not afford, I use a credit card for convienence and pay the bill every month. Much faster to swipe it at the gas station than go in put money on the pump etc but I do not owe anyone at the end of the month!!!
Hmm do not ask me about the stupid crap that has been going on at the local state park that I both grew up around and then worked for during college summers. MAny out of towners broke major rules and drowned their fool asses. Everyone that has drowned was breaking the law and outside of te designated swim areas. So now the number of people allowed in the park is a joke and good luck going as a local on a holiday or weekend. They should have started with banning out of state plates and kept th NYC fools out. Still would have the clowns from bridgeport etc but maybe a check of legal in the US would help. Maybe an English test at the gate??

Down East Labs 217
06-06-2012, 02:33 PM
Man....you guys are finally paying some taxes and are complaining now. Don't forget that we paid your way through school and countless other things like parks to visit when you were kids...policemen to keep you safe...etc. Growup...we all get plenty for no more than we paid. This country runs itself like most handle their credit cards...we buy when we want not what we can afford. You guys listen way too much to Rush. He has created hatred amoung men so that he can sell ad spots.....wow....give me a break. So she cleaned a house for cash and got her nails done so she could act like a rich person...give her a break. You really believe that these people are having kids to collect checks....no they having them because they have nothing else to occupy their time

Most of the time I figured you were just yanking the conservative chains. But I am starting to think you actually believe the crap you type.

If they can pay cash for crap like smokes, alcohol, hair and nails, a fancy car, they can pay for their rent or food. People who truly are trying to make it do not waste money on frivolous things. Been their and done that.

When I was broke and out of work in the early 80's I accepted welfare for three months while I got back on my feet. I was not proud of it and busted my butt to get off it. For those three very long months I didn't have a drink, my wife didn't get her nails or hair done. We saved every penny we could. Once I got another job she got her hair fancied up and nails done.

People who need help should get help, but not when they can afford frivolous crap.

My opinion

Richard

menmon
06-06-2012, 02:48 PM
Guys don't think I like it...I just understand it. Most of these people don't know any better and will never make good decisions. This has gone on long before us and we just have found a way to manage the problem and it has a cost. If they all were responsible like you, we would have much more than 8% looking for a job that isn't there. This rheteric about a problem that neither side can do anything about is just to make you vote, but don't think they are going to fix it. They may package it a different way but it still going to exist and we have to pay for it. If we don't, we will pay another way.

Bottom line, I would rather see my money go to feed someone that can't feed themselves than line the pockets of someone that should not have recieved it

luvmylabs23139
06-06-2012, 03:26 PM
Guys don't think I like it...I just understand it. Most of these people don't know any better and will never make good decisions. This has gone on long before us and we just have found a way to manage the problem and it has a cost. If they all were responsible like you, we would have much more than 8% looking for a job that isn't there. This rheteric about a problem that neither side can do anything about is just to make you vote, but don't think they are going to fix it. They may package it a different way but it still going to exist and we have to pay for it. If we don't, we will pay another way.

Bottom line, I would rather see my money go to feed someone that can't feed themselves than line the pockets of someone that should not have recieved it

Don't you get it??? Many of these people spend money on "crap" but not on needs. Why should a dime of my money go to pay for anything for someone who has money for the nail salon?
And seriously how can half those people function with those insane nails???
I can well afford those nutty nails but hell no, I had a much shorter gelled nail jammed by a dog , talk about pain!!! A couple of coats of clear for day to day and then some polish when needed.
I have to admit that since I will have no dogs for a week coming up I'm getting them done fairly short as soon as I drop the last dog off and then getting them cut down the day I get back. Sometimes ya gotta be girlie girl!!

huntinman
06-06-2012, 03:34 PM
Guys don't think I like it...I just understand it. Most of these people don't know any better and will never make good decisions. This has gone on long before us and we just have found a way to manage the problem and it has a cost. If they all were responsible like you, we would have much more than 8% looking for a job that isn't there. This rheteric about a problem that neither side can do anything about is just to make you vote, but don't think they are going to fix it. They may package it a different way but it still going to exist and we have to pay for it. If we don't, we will pay another way.

Bottom line, I would rather see my money go to feed someone that can't feed themselves than line the pockets of someone that should not have recieved it

I get it now... we are all just a bunch of hayseeds and you are here to enlighten us? That's typical of the mindset that keep getting Obama in trouble.

luvmylabs23139
06-06-2012, 03:39 PM
Guys don't think I like it...I just understand it. Most of these people don't know any better and will never make good decisions. This has gone on long before us and we just have found a way to manage the problem and it has a cost. If they all were responsible like you, we would have much more than 8% looking for a job that isn't there. This rheteric about a problem that neither side can do anything about is just to make you vote, but don't think they are going to fix it. They may package it a different way but it still going to exist and we have to pay for it. If we don't, we will pay another way.

Bottom line, I would rather see my money go to feed someone that can't feed themselves than line the pockets of someone that should not have recieved it

So time for tough love. Time for them to wake up. Cut the gravy train and make them stand on their own 2 feet because those that carry the weight have had enough!!!!

I have no problem shutting them down and then defending my property with deadly force if needed. Sounds like a great plan to me.

ARay11
06-06-2012, 04:40 PM
22 year old single mother in my office TODAY.
Currently working at the local suds n such 10 hours/week @ 7.50/hr. ($325/month) and child support $350/mo.
Also currently receiving assistance, WIC, and housing (her rent is $29/mo)
Drives a 2005 Chev Impala with 120k miles on it...it's paid for. Was given to her by the baby daddy.
She doesn't like it. (admits there is nothing wrong with it other than it is "ugly")
Wants to trade it.
Says it's not a problem to afford up to $400/mo. for a car pmt.

These are the typical leaches of society which have every conservative American ranting.

2tall
06-06-2012, 07:54 PM
its very difficult to give most of your political rants anything more than a passing glance, your anger offsets any chance at having an intelligent discussion, you tend to show a certain amount of bigotry and were it not for the fact that there are safeguards in place your language toward those groups which you despise would be different..

you always seem to equate "leeches" with those that dont pay what in your mind is a fair share, How would you like it if we judged you as an alien with no rights since you are not a citizen and therefore have no say so on the political outcome of things....

If you want people to take you seriously and give your rants some merit, you might be best served by bringing something of substance instead of your usual tirade which smacks of bigotry and racism...

Not everything in this world is based on the almighty dollar or one's social standing

Wish there was a like button! Thanks Bon.

zeus3925
06-07-2012, 01:26 AM
Well, Luvy, can't disagree with you at times about taking my money to give to cheats. But you get into a nasty chicken and egg argument here. There was a time when there was nothing for those that were indigent, except, reliance on charity or in some instances, the county poor farm. But, those systems were overwhelmed during the Great Depression. Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath is an outstanding piece of literature outlining what life was like in that kind of system. Anyone that wants to return to that kind of yesteryear should read that book.

Your first problem is defining how many cheats you have and how do you detect them. Surely, there are people that become impoverished through circumstances beyond their control. I would not subscribe to a figure of 50% cheating rate but I would agree it is more like 10 to 15% depending on the demographics.

Most social services have elaborate and complex application procedures to detect fraudulent claims. But with that complexity comes the need for more staff capable of processing that claim. Behind them, teams of fraud investigators are needed to track down those who get through the first line of defense. However , in hard economic times governmental agencies are prone to cutting staff in response to budget restrictions. The system gets caught in a crunch between a burgeoning claim load and fewer people able to provide an adequate screen to fraud.

You have to have judges that have the courage and toughness to crack down on offenders and make examples out of them. But, that takes money for probation officers, incarceration, foster care for the kids, etc. Money that is tight in times like these. How much do you want to spend In this direction. You get caught in a financial merry-go-round.

The public often knows of the fraud going on around them, but they don't report the abuse. If you know of the abuse and you don't report it you are part of the problem.

Should the able bodied be required to public service when on relief? I certainly think so. You can look at the CCC camps of the 30's that provided employment for youth. It gave a generation useful work skills. The object was not only to provide youth with jobs to help out their families, but, also to reduce crime rates in cities. That program, staffed by military non-coms, provided a nucleus for the armed services that defeated the Axis powers in WW II. The country is still reaping the benefits of the CCC program 80 years hence.

Another approach is to require that all applicants register with the state job services as a pre condition of receiving assistance. Then require all adults in a household to attend, say 30 or 40hours / week, in job preparation classes and in a job search right there from the welfare/job service office. That removes the incentive to lie about watching Oprah. Require the children under 18 attend school. Education is one way to avoid poverty.

huntinman
06-07-2012, 07:07 AM
Well, Luvy, can't disagree with you at times about taking my money to give to cheats. But you get into a nasty chicken and egg argument here. There was a time when there was nothing for those that were indigent, except, reliance on charity or in some instances, the county poor farm. But, those systems were overwhelmed during the Great Depression. Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath is an outstanding piece of literature outlining what life was like in that kind of system. Anyone that wants to return to that kind of yesteryear should read that book.

Your first problem is defining how many cheats you have and how do you detect them. Surely, there are people that become impoverished through circumstances beyond their control. I would not subscribe to a figure of 50% cheating rate but I would agree it is more like 10 to 15% depending on the demographics.

Most social services have elaborate and complex application procedures to detect fraudulent claims. But with that complexity comes the need for more staff with capable of processing that claim. Behind them, teams of fraud investigators are needed to track down those who get through the first line of defense. However , in hard economic times governmental agencies are prone to cutting staff in response to budget restrictions. The system gets caught in a crunch between a burgeoning claim load and fewer people able to provide an adequate screen to fraud.

You have to have judges that have the courage and toughness to crack down on offenders and make examples out of them. But, that takes money for probation officers, incarceration, foster care for the kids, etc. Money that is tight in times like these. How much do you want to spend In this direction. You get caught in a financial merry-go-round.

The public often knows of the fraud going on around them, but they don't report the abuse. If you know of the abuse and you don't report it you are part of the problem.

Should the able bodied be required to public service when on relief? I certainly think so. You can look at the CCC camps of the 30's that provided employment for youth. It gave a generation useful work skills. The object was not only to provide youth with jobs to help out their families, but, also to reduce crime rates in cities. That program, staffed by military non-coms, provided a nucleus for the armed services that defeated the Axis powers in WW II. The country is still reaping the benefits of the CCC program 80 years hence.

Another approach is to require that all applicants register with the state job services as a pre condition of receiving assistance. Then require all adults in a household to attend, say 30 or 40hours / week, in job preparation classes and in a job search right there from the welfare/job service office. That removes the incentive to lie about watching Oprah. Require the children under 18 attend school. Education is one way to avoid poverty.

Made some good point there Sarge. Have to say I would agree with many of them. Only problem is, it's gonna take a lot more republicans than democrats to ever get it done. You sure you aren't working your way over to the right side??;)

zeus3925
06-07-2012, 07:43 AM
Made some good point there Sarge. Have to say I would agree with many of them. Only problem is, it's gonna take a lot more republicans than democrats to ever get it done. You sure you aren't working your way over to the right side??;)

Even though I tend to vote Democrat, I never have been that far from the "right side". I'm not a 100%-er and I do vote for good Republican candidates. I have deep suspicions of the ideologues in both parties. I appreciate good men with vision and intellect, regardless of party affiliation.

HPL
06-07-2012, 08:27 AM
Your first problem is defining how many cheats you have and how do you detect them..................... But with that complexity comes the need for more staff capable of processing that claim. Behind them, teams of fraud investigators are needed to track down those who get through the first line of defense. However , in hard economic times governmental agencies are prone to cutting staff in response to budget restrictions. The system gets caught in a crunch between a burgeoning claim load and fewer people able to provide an adequate screen to fraud.

You have to have judges that have the courage and toughness to crack down on offenders and make examples out of them. But, that takes money for probation officers, incarceration, foster care for the kids, etc. Money that is tight in times like these. How much do you want to spend In this direction. You get caught in a financial merry-go-round.

Should the able bodied be required to public service when on relief? I certainly think so. You can look at the CCC camps of the 30's that provided employment for youth. It gave a generation useful work skills. The object was not only to provide youth with jobs to help out their families, but, also to reduce crime rates in cities. That program, staffed by military non-coms, provided a nucleus for the armed services that defeated the Axis powers in WW II. The country is still reaping the benefits of the CCC program 80 years hence.

Another approach is to require that all applicants register with the state job services as a pre condition of receiving assistance. Then require all adults in a household to attend, say 30 or 40hours / week, in job preparation classes and in a job search right there from the welfare/job service office. That removes the incentive to lie about watching Oprah. Require the children under 18 attend school. Education is one way to avoid poverty.

Great points and you bring out one of the real problems which is the increase in the size of the government which accompanies any program like this. Would be interesting to know how much we spend on the bureaucracy administering the various welfare programs vs how much is actually paid out to those receiving benefits. I still think that food benefits need to be more closely monitored and restricted to less expensive, nutritious, foods and ALL assets need to be taken into account, so no more fancy vehicles, etc. I really like the idea of work programs, especially ones that teach skills, but even picking up trash along the highway or cleaning up our city streets and parks would make me feel better about how my tax dollars were being spent.

zeus3925
06-07-2012, 08:47 AM
Great points and you bring out one of the real problems which is the increase in the size of the government which accompanies any program like this. Would be interesting to know how much we spend on the bureaucracy administering the various welfare programs vs how much is actually paid out to those receiving benefits. I still think that food benefits need to be more closely monitored and restricted to less expensive, nutritious, foods and ALL assets need to be taken into account, so no more fancy vehicles, etc. I really like the idea of work programs, especially ones that teach skills, but even picking up trash along the highway or cleaning up our city streets and parks would make me feel better about how my tax dollars were being spent.

It is not only the recipients that benefit from the dole. There is a whole web of vendors that are paid for services--foster care, medical providers, mental health professionals, guardian ad litems, guardians, grocery stores (food stamps), attorneys, chemical dependency treatment, etc. I heard a majority of the social service costs goes to vendors. I have been away from that for a while so I don't know what the current percentages might be for your state. Ask your local social services manager or commissioner and he should be able to provide a figure.

charly_t
06-07-2012, 12:09 PM
.................................................. .............. I appreciate good men with vision and intellect, regardless of party affiliation.

Great sentence.

~ ~ ~ ~
I have thought a little about the jobs that people could do who were on welfare but not disabled exactly.
Plenty of pick up of trash in many places. They could be required to pick up and sort that trash for recycling etc. Scrubbing graffiti off of buildings and walls. The problem is getting these people to work. Having a retarded family member that I and educaters have tried to motivate I know that it would not be easy. If
results are demanded before they can have a meal it might help but also knowing how the foster care systems etc. view this our hands are often tied ! I do think that adults with a "normal" IQ could be motivated. And I like the idea of changing the food stamp program in a big way. Healthy food not junk foods.

Gerry Clinchy
06-07-2012, 01:04 PM
So recycle used cell phones and only let it dial 911.

I can see other uses that could be of an "emergency" nature ... like setting up a doctor appointment or a job interview or having a sick child at school. So, just 911 wouldn't be quite enough. But they certainly could re-cycle the older phones for this purpose.

Gerry Clinchy
06-07-2012, 01:21 PM
Great post, Zeus.

I think the complexity of the system can sometimes also make it easier to lose track of the cheats! Not long ago there was a story about a fellow in Philadelphia who was getting aid under 7 different names!

We should hire people like that to find the "holes" in the system!

I wonder how often the complexity of the system causes those in need to be delayed, while the "gamers" know just how to play the system?

I think public service work would be two-fold ... getting some useful work done, and also the chance for those doing the work to experience seeing the results of their work. How about scrubbing the graffiti off walls ... then allowing some of the public service workers to replace the graffiti with attractive artwork so that there is some positive pride in the result? With some pride in the neighborhood, the residents, themselves, would be more inclined to scold deter those who would replace the good art with junk?

After they clean the trash out of the park or vacant lot ... how about letting them plant flowers or vegetable gardens?

I think both of the above have been "tested" in some areas with success.

I had not heard of the CCC program before, but it sounds like it could be a model for today.

What we need is some new approach to how we can truly help the poor ... not just keep them dependent. Make no mistake, it is likely that there would be plenty of opposition to changes like this. The cure can be more painful than the disease, at least temporarily. And it wouldn't be an easy road to make such changes on a permanent level.

zeus3925
06-07-2012, 01:36 PM
Here you go Gerry. Have some links for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps

http://www.ccclegacy.org/ccc_legacy.htm

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1586.html

zeus3925
06-07-2012, 01:56 PM
Great sentence.

~ ~ ~ ~
I have thought a little about the jobs that people could do who were on welfare but not disabled exactly.
Plenty of pick up of trash in many places. They could be required to pick up and sort that trash for recycling etc. Scrubbing graffiti off of buildings and walls. The problem is getting these people to work. Having a retarded family member that I and educaters have tried to motivate I know that it would not be easy. If
results are demanded before they can have a meal it might help but also knowing how the foster care systems etc. view this our hands are often tied ! I do think that adults with a "normal" IQ could be motivated. And I like the idea of changing the food stamp program in a big way. Healthy food not junk foods.

Actually there are sheltered workshops that do some amazing things. One workshop that I know in Kingsford, Michigan in the old Ford plant there was turning out roof trusses for a modular housing factory across the street, Even those with an IQ of 26 could at least swing a hammer. They had the plant set up with jigs so the wood was cut properly. Then another set of jigs were used to get all the pieces lined up. And then bring on the hammer swingers to hammer down the joining plates. The amount of pride on payday was something to behold. The product quality was very much up to standard.

charly_t
06-07-2012, 07:23 PM
We have a sheltered work shop in the town near us. Not sure how well it is doing anymore. They shut down their recycle program some time back. The government job coaches just waste money. Retarded Grandaughter was given a job where she had to count and keep track of samples.....this even though she has never understood counting, numbers, time etc. Then there was the 'coach' who took her home with her and had the grandaughter carry in their firewood. I have forgot what that 'coach' was earning per hour but it was very good pay per hour. The foster mother was livid over that. Oh, and then my grandaughter was working as a playground aid for very small children. This for a person who can not take care of herself. I
just can't understand some of their ideas.

zeus3925
06-07-2012, 07:42 PM
We have a sheltered work shop in the town near us. Not sure how well it is doing anymore. They shut down their recycle program some time back. The government job coaches just waste money. Retarded Grandaughter was given a job where she had to count and keep track of samples.....this even though she has never understood counting, numbers, time etc. Then there was the 'coach' who took her home with her and had the grandaughter carry in their firewood. I have forgot what that 'coach' was earning per hour but it was very good pay per hour. The foster mother was livid over that. Oh, and then my grandaughter was working as a playground aid for very small children. This for a person who can not take care of herself. I
just can't understand some of their ideas.

I can't either.

Marvin S
06-07-2012, 09:16 PM
Well, Luvy, can't disagree with you at times about taking my money to give to cheats. But you get into a nasty chicken and egg argument here. There was a time when there was nothing for those that were indigent, except, reliance on charity or in some instances, the county poor farm. But, those systems were overwhelmed during the Great Depression. Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath is an outstanding piece of literature outlining what life was like in that kind of system. Anyone that wants to return to that kind of yesteryear should read that book.

Should the able bodied be required to public service when on relief? I certainly think so. You can look at the CCC camps of the 30's that provided employment for youth. It gave a generation useful work skills. The object was not only to provide youth with jobs to help out their families, but, also to reduce crime rates in cities. That program, staffed by military non-coms, provided a nucleus for the armed services that defeated the Axis powers in WW II. The country is still reaping the benefits of the CCC program 80 years hence.

I was actually among those living during that era - we were the only family in the county privately employed that refused a government program - my grandfather, an immigrant with a 2nd grade education had placed all his savings in government bonds prior to the banks going under :cool:. I don't agree it was as bad as you try to imply, now that I am more worldly, the same people were in trouble in those days that meet the criteria today. Relief was commodities provided by the government, on occasion protein which was unnecessary in a farming community. This being during the time that a trip to the grocery store with $5 would get you more than 2 people could carry out. My grandpa told me later, had he known he was going to live so long he would have owned half the county. The quitters left to go to IA in most cases, funny that they are the bellwether of political primaries with that cultural background :).


I had not heard of the CCC program before, but it sounds like it could be a model for today.

What we need is some new approach to how we can truly help the poor ... not just keep them dependent. Make no mistake, it is likely that there would be plenty of opposition to changes like this. The cure can be more painful than the disease, at least temporarily. And it wouldn't be an easy road to make such changes on a permanent level.

I can remember giving a young man from our community a ride to Chamberlain to go back to his CCC station. Nice & polite as most young people were in those days. They got bed & board with a small cash stipend which most gave to their families, the quality of bed dependent on the duration of their particular assignment.

One of our city councilman is a summer employee of the Parks Service, works at Mt Rainier National Park. He is amazed at the quality of the bridges built by the folks who were in the CCC & the WPA at the time. Most of the outhouses at the country schools were built by those work projects, quality work & impossible to tip over on Halloween w/o the aid of a tractor/loader ;).

I don't place a lot of faith in the writeups of times past when they vary from what one actually saw. Hooverville was made up of mainly veterans of WWI who had been promised a future bonus & wanted it now. Who was the Speaker of the House & responsible for the date of payment - FDR - Who got the blame for the fiasco? Hoover - Actual history is sometimes much different than what the wordsmiths present.

HPL
06-07-2012, 09:50 PM
It's kind of funny how back then at least some "relief" actually consisted of jobs through the CCC (Civilian Conservation Corps), and the WPA (Works Progress (Projects) Administration) and now it seems to be mostly a handout. I suspect that getting help through the CCC and WPA allowed folks to have some feeling of pride and accomplishment, knowing that they were actually earning their help.

charly_t
06-07-2012, 10:01 PM
.................................................A ctual history is sometimes much different than what the wordsmiths present.

Yes, yes. I remember The grown-ups talks about FDR when he was president. Lemmings were running to the sea at that time. And it is the time for lemmings running to the sea once again. People refuse to listen to history and learn from it. They prefer to rewrite it.