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helencalif
06-25-2012, 02:50 PM
Fast & Furious has grabbed my attention. I bounce around on the major networks to see what they are reporting on Fast & Furious. I have watched 4 of the hearings in their entirety and read on the net about the ones I missed. I have spent a lot of time on the net seeking news coverage. I also visit the Oversight Committee's website to read their progress reporting.

What is amazing to me are the errors reported by reporters and commentary analysts. Yes, incorrect information has been on Fox News, too. Last Friday's "The Five" program had me shouting at Juan Williams. "You are an idiot, Juan. You haven't spent any research time to get the facts straight before you give an opinion." Operation Wide Receiver (Bush administration) was started and then stopped. (Fast & Furious started during the Obama adm.) Wide Receiver was an entirely different operation than Fast & Furious. The guns had GPS units installed so they could be tracked. Arizona ATF agents followed the guns; Mexico was part of the sting. They followed the guns after they crossed the border. Arrests were made. Less than 300 guns were involved. When it was discovered that the gun cartels had discovered how the guns were being tracked and removed the GPS units, the program was ended immediately.

While the ATF office in Arizona handled F & F and while it was approved by the ATF head in WA DC, the DOJ also knew about it and had meetings about it. We have to assume that the approval to run the operation went from ATF up through the DOJ at least through and to several Deputy AG's as they attended DOJ meetings.

The question is: did knowledge of F&F stop at the Deputy AG level without their reporting Fast & Furious to Holder? Is that how the DOJ works? Keep the boss in the dark? We already know that Holder misspoke when he said in a hearing that he had learned about it only recently. UH, emails were found which proved Holder had lied about when he said knew about F & F.

Over 2,000 illegal guns were made available to gun shop owners by ATF (that's substantially more than the almost 300 involved in Wide Receiver before it was shut down.)

The gunshop owners then sold the guns to straw buyers and the guns made their way to Mexican drug cartels. Over 2,000 guns... this was not a cheap gun-walking operation. Somebody higher than ATF had to approve this type of expenditure. Instead of watching the guns (which was given as the purpose of the operation), the ATF agents were told to stand down and to not follow them to the Mexican border. If customs caught the guns at the border, they were told by ATF to let them pass.

Neither ATF nor the DOJ told Mexico about this gun-walking operation so there were no Mexican authorities on the other side of the border watching where the guns went (which was done in previous gun-walking operations).

So if ATF was not going to monitor the over 2,000 guns nor tell Mexico so they could monitor the guns, exactly what was the purpose for the gun-walking operation? In reality, the ATF / DOJ supplied the Mexican cartels with over 2,000 AK47s, 50 caliber rifles, and other illegal guns. As of this date, they don't know where most of the guns went. They do know one Border Agent was killed and the estimate they give is that around 200 Mexican people have been killed by those guns. No explanation as to how they arrived at that figure.

No figures have been released as to where the guns have shown up in other crimes and where those crimes took place in the US. A Texas congressman wrote a letter to the DOJ asking how many guns have ended up in Texas and to what crimes they can be attibuted. The DOJ has not replied to his letter.

An ATF / DOJ cover-up? Did the ATF / DOJ lie to the House Oversight Committee ? Yes. For over 10 months they denied that the F & F operation existed.
A whistle blower changed that.

What did Holder know, when did he know it, and did he give approval for F & F ? The answers may be in the documents that the Oversight Committee has requested. Does it go beyond the AG and does it lead to the White House? There is a reason why AG Holder will not provide the documents and why the President requested executive privilege. Sort of like Nixon who used executive privilege so the WH tape recordings would not become public. The Supreme Court ruled on that one; the tape recordings became public and Nixon resigned over a botched petty burglary attempt. It pales by comparison to Fast & Furious.

Helen

helencalif
06-25-2012, 04:01 PM
About the wiretaps (according to the Oversight Committee's website) ...

The DOJ has contended that F & F was something cooked up and run out of the Phoenix ATF office by rogue ATF agents. However, the head of ATF Melson has resigned over this. The DOJ has said that F & F went no higher than the head of ATF. Eric Holder has stated that no one at the DOJ knew about F &F.

However, six wiretaps were submitted to the DOJ in Wash. DC to Asst AG Lanny Breuer of the DOJ Criminal Division for his review of F & F tactics and for his approval of the tactics. Thus, at least Asst AG Lanny Breuer at DOJ not only knew about F & F, he approved the tactics as Fast & Furious continued.

The contents of the wiretaps have been sealed. While they can be shared (and have been shared) amongst the Oversight Committee who obtained copies of them, the Oversight Committee can't make them public as long as the seal exists. Documents about the contents of the wiretaps are part of the Committee's document request which Holder has ignored. If you were wondering what documents Issa wants and Holder won't give up, some of them have to do with the wiretaps because they prove that Fast & Furious was known by the head of DOJ's Criminal Division and also had the approval of him. If Breuer told Holder about the F & F tactics which he (Breuer) approved, this might be in emails between Breuer and Holder. Thus, a cover up at a high level in the DOJ.

Helen

helencalif
06-25-2012, 04:44 PM
In July 2011, ATF Chief Kenneth Melson was questioned behind closed doors about Fast & Furious by Senate and House investigators. Later some of Melson's information was released by them.

Melson told them that the ATF gave reports to DOJ "superiors" about the failure of ATF to interdict guns (stop the guns) at the Mexican border when they could have stopped the guns and should have stopped the guns, but that the ATF agents were apparently told to stand down and to let them cross the border. (The public release did not report who told the ATF agents to let the guns go into Mexico.)

Melson was not fired. A month later (Aug 2011) he resigned as the head of the ATF and moved over to work at the Office of Legal Policy.

Helen

pat addis
06-25-2012, 05:23 PM
how quick would this info get out if the letters nra were in it some where. i belive that is the true reason all this has happened so they could get more gun control laws they hoped that some woul get to some right wingers. don't forget shortly after this gang of morons got in office they sent out memos to watch put for cars with pro gun stickers on them as potential terrorist gang

Gerry Clinchy
06-25-2012, 10:18 PM
Good research, Helen.

This really smells bad. Also seems like no one has come up with a valid reason for this operation letting the guns out of control of ATF surveilance, especially with its large scope, Was there ever a plan to catch any of the bad guys? If there was, did somebody forget to write the memo on that part?

helencalif
06-26-2012, 03:54 PM
The fact that ATF lacked any way to track the guns makes the F & F operation smell bad.
The fact that the ATF or the DOJ decided not to include Mexico in the operation (or even tell Mexico about it) smells bad.
The fact that ATF agents were told to stand down and NOT do anything to track the guns to the border smells bad.
The fact that Customs was told to let the guns pass through the border smells bad.

So what was the purpose of this gun-walking operation? It sure gives some credence to the belief that somebody wanted to supply Mexican cartels with guns.
Why?

There are some who think an increase in crimes and murders in Mexico and in the US would raise an anti-gun movement in the US.

Can anyone come up with some other reason as to why the ATV and the DOJ provided over 2,000 illegal guns to the Mexican cartels? The guns included AK47s , sniper rifles, and 50 caliber rifles. It sounds like the US was outfitting a small army. Why?

Helen

Gerry Clinchy
06-26-2012, 11:28 PM
There are some who think an increase in crimes and murders in Mexico and in the US would raise an anti-gun movement in the US.


Remember when Hillary implied that it was US guns that were arming the cartels? I wonder if that was before F&F was begun?

helencalif
06-27-2012, 01:03 PM
Do you know when Hillary implied that it was US guns that were arming the cartels?

F & F Timeline:

Oct. 2009 a teleconference meeting was held among the DEA, the ATF, and the DOJ discussing what to do about the Mexican cartels. It has been reported that gun-walking was not a tactic mentioned in this meeting. I have not found any mention on the net as to what specific tactics were suggested during the meeting.

Nov 2009 the Operation Fast & Furious was begun by the ATF... operating out of their Phoenix, AZ, office.

Within months as the amount of guns being sold (but not tracked) grew, ATF agents in AZ and in Mexico complained that the operation was not working right because the guns were not being tracked, the straw buyers were not being arrested, and the guns were being used in crimes on both sides of the borders . The complaining ATF agents were apparently told to shut up and go along with the operation. Even the AZ gun shop owners who the ATF rounded up to sell the guns to straw buyers started complaining.

I do not understand how AG Eric Holder could state that the DOJ did not know about the operation when superiors in DOJ were participants in the October 2009 meeting, ATF Chief Melson knew about it from the get go and received reports about it. ATF Chief Melson operates under and with the DOJ. This operation needed funding. Over 2,000 AK47s, sniper rifles, and 50 cailber rifles cost some big $$$ and they were illegal. The government provided the guns to the gun shop owners who had to sell them. In order to get funding, the DOJ would have to approve Fast & Furious.

Helen

Gerry Clinchy
06-27-2012, 08:18 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-4893905-503543.htmlThe (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-4893905-503543.htmlThe)

WH was taking this position (U.S. guns going to drug cartels) in March 2009! Just two months after Obama took office. Did the F&F "plan" start taking shape even then?


Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, on a visit to Mexico, said Wednesday that America's inability to prevent weapons being smuggled across the border is causing the deaths of Mexican police officers, soldiers and civilians. (Read a full report (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/25/politics/main4891839.shtml) on Clinton's visit.)

Now, the ATF is about to get some reinforcements under an initiative announced this week by the Obama administration. The money will help track down who is buying these weapons and from whom.

"We know for a fact that a lot of the weapons are coming from firearms dealers," Golson said. "They're coming from gun shows and flea markets." Often, he says, private collectors are selling their weapons because "they don't have the same restrictions." (But F&F just used the gun dealers.)

Complicating things for ATF agents, the weapons often change hands before crossing the border. After which they can fetch a hefty profit. (They already knew this, so why didn't F&F have a provision for tracking the guns?)

gmhr1
06-28-2012, 02:50 PM
A large group of dems are walking out in protest of contempt vote can't they just seek the truth. If holder or obama is involved than so be it....if you see what docs they are asking for it sure looks bad for both.

helencalif
06-28-2012, 08:17 PM
Sadly, it will take a long time for the Oversight Committee to obtain the documents they requested -- that is, if they ever get them. The American people can only speculate as to what the documents will prove as to who in the DOJ granted approval. How high did it go? We probably will never learn the truth. Certainly the truth will not be known before November.

Documents at hand prove that Asst. AG Lanny Breuer, Chief of the DOJ's Criminal Division, knew and approved. Documents at hand also prove that "someone" at the DOJ approved funding the operation. Will Lanny Breuer face criminal charges? Right now he is facing nothing. Has he been fired? No. He hasn't even been transferred. Paycheck and retirement are still intact.

The DOJ looked for a fall guy. First they blamed ATF's Phoenix AZ, office saying it was a rogue operation on their part. Nobody got fired. Nobody got charged. ATF supervisiors in Phoenix got transferred.

When ATF agents in the field complained that DOJ's U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke (who was the DOJ's prosecuting officer in AZ) would not prosecute or act when ATF agents seized straw man gun sellers, Burke became the fall guy. Was the DOJ's U.S. Attorney in AZ fired or charged? No, he was allowed to resign.

ATF Actiing Chief Melson knew about F & F and testified behind closed doors in July 2011 that he sent ATF reports about F & F to the DOJ after he read them. He also said that the DEA and the FBI were involved. He also said that Eric Holder received briefings on Fast and Furious as early as July 2010. Melson was not fired or charged. In Aug 2011 the DOJ transferred him to another division called the Office of Legal Policy where he is a senior supervisor of forensic science. (Paycheck and retirement intact.)

A month later (Sept 2011) Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano was asked at an Oversight Hearing when she knew about the operation. She testified she did not know about it while it was underway (it operated for about 13 months, from Nov. 2009 - January/Feb 2011). I guess for 13 months nobody at the ATF, the DEA, the FBI, or the DOJ told Janet about a gun walking operation that was going on in her home state.

So for 13 months about 2,500 illegal guns were provided by the ATF (via the DOJ) to gun shops in So. AZ for them to sell to straw buyers who hustled the approx 2,500 AK47s and other guns across the border to sell to the Mexican cartels. ATF field agents were told to look the other way. If Customs discovered any guns, they were told to let them pass through.

Since Asst AG Lanny Breuer knew and approved from the get go, do you think he ever told his boss Eric Holder?

If no one gets charged with criminal charges, if no one gets fired, this is going to happen again because there is no accountability and no punishment.

How high did it go? The DOJ wants us to believe it went no higher than ATF Acting Chief Melson.
Helen

Buzz
06-28-2012, 11:33 PM
I found this article about f&f to be very enlightening.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/?iid=SF_F_River

Marvin S
06-29-2012, 11:04 AM
I found this article about f&f to be very enlightening.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/?iid=SF_F_River

If in fact what is printed there is true, why does this administration insist on withholding documents?

Uncle Bill
06-29-2012, 03:21 PM
If in fact what is printed there is true, why does this administration insist on withholding documents?

Because there are communications between the messiah and his AG, directly discussing the F & F activity. It's impeachable information, thus the decision to shut the committee down by Obama. The only way the nation will find this out, is when Obama is thrown out of office, and then we'll see some transparency on what went on. The corruption is incredulous.

UB

road kill
06-29-2012, 06:31 PM
I found this article about f&f to be very enlightening.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/?iid=SF_F_River

I find this one even more "enlightening!!"

http://www.rollcall.com/news/darrell_issa_puts_details_of_secret_wiretap_applic ations_in_congressional-215828-1.html

duckheads
06-29-2012, 06:33 PM
I found this article about f&f to be very enlightening.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/?iid=SF_F_River


Of course if we had all of the guns registred then this never would have happened. We need a national gun registration to stop the guns from going to Mexico. It would help keep guns from the gangbangers too I'm sure. Oh and the NRA is to blame also for weakening the gun laws we have.

Ya very enlightening Buzz. Enlightened me enough to not finish the article as I do not agree with their premise from the get go but I am sure the gun control advocates are all over it.

charly_t
06-29-2012, 07:00 PM
.................................................. ............We need a national gun registration to stop the guns from going to Mexico............................................ .........

Not sure that this is a very good answer.

huntinman
06-30-2012, 10:24 AM
Not sure that this is a very good answer.

He didn't mean it... sarcasm...

Gerry Clinchy
06-30-2012, 11:07 AM
I found this article about f&f to be very enlightening.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/?iid=SF_F_River
Buzz, I read the article you cited. I am still puzzled why these people did not speak up sooner. What would be the reason for that?

It could have been to not make public that they had some "loose cannons" in their agency. However, that would not be near as much a fault to admit to as the mess that has been created. Maybe they should all have been fired for just being stupid?

gmhr1
06-30-2012, 01:45 PM
If Holder didn't have anything to hide wouldn't he say investigate me, this makes him and the WH look really bad.

charly_t
06-30-2012, 01:51 PM
He didn't mean it... sarcasm...

Glad to know that. Had me worried there for a little while, vbg.

gmhr1
06-30-2012, 04:22 PM
Doj will not prosecute holder.

BonMallari
06-30-2012, 05:36 PM
Doj will not prosecute holder.

does not matter, it was just part of the process...they knew how the DOJ would react...but the next step is to go to civil court and get a ruling from a judge...this is the Nixon Watergate tapes scenario all over again, it is past the point of no return...the investigative committee already knows what info they are looking for because they already have been"leaked" those documents...its like asking the soon to be ex spouse if they had any extra curricular activities, when all along you had the video in your possession....Remember that the cover up is always worse than the crime

gmhr1
07-31-2012, 12:21 PM
Hang on Eric Holder F& F is raising its head again... it will all come back to you!

gmhr1
08-02-2012, 07:30 PM
William Hoover Deputy Director of the ATF just left his job due to criticism over fast and furious.

gmhr1
08-13-2012, 01:52 PM
Its a disgrace that Congress has to sue the Attorney General to get to the truth and obama has the nerve to claim transparency .

ARay11
08-13-2012, 03:01 PM
Its a disgrace that Congress has to sue the Attorney General to get to the truth and obama has the nerve to claim transparency .

isn't most packing tape transparent? maybe that's what he meant when he "sealed" the records. LOL

gmhr1
08-13-2012, 03:03 PM
Sad to have to sue an Attorney General just to get the truth. How many times has this happened in the past?

gmhr1
08-16-2012, 02:01 PM
Holder may be busy for awhile
http://www.federalnewsradio.com/?nid=478&sid=2994264

Uncle Bill
08-18-2012, 06:06 PM
House Committee Files Suit Against HolderPosted on August 17, 2012






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This week, the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Oversight and Government Reform filed a civil lawsuit seeking to circumvent President Obama's executive privilege claim and force the Department of Justice to hand over subpoenaed documents.

The filing is a follow-up to a June 28 resolution holding Attorney General Eric H. Holder, Jr. in contempt of Congress for failing to turn over subpoenaed documents about his department's response to the disastrous "Fast and Furious" operation by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The resolution passed by a bipartisan vote of 255 to 67.

Obama administration officials and the Department of Justice had openly defied the committee's legitimate requests for documents regarding one of the most deadly and disastrous fiascos in the history of American law enforcement, one which claimed the lives of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry and I.C.E. agent Jaime Zapata. And in a historically unprecedented maneuver, President Obama claimed executive privilege to justify withholding Justice Department deliberations from a congressional subpoena.

According to a WallStreetJournal.com article (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444318104577587291192295730.html) this week, U.S. Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.)--chairman of the Oversight Committee--said the president exceeded his authority.

"Waiting nearly eight months after the subpoena had been issued to assert a meritless claim of privilege, the president's decision was a calculated political maneuver designed to stop the release of documents until after November's election," said Issa.

The complaint, filed in U.S. District Court, says:

No Court has ever held that "Executive privilege" extends anywhere near as far as the Attorney General here contends that it does. Indeed, it is no exaggeration to say that the Attorney General's conception of the reach of "Executive privilege," were it to be accepted, would cripple congressional oversight of Executive branch agencies, to the very great detriment of the Nation and our constitutional structure. Accordingly, the Committee asks this Court to reject the Attorney General's assertion of "Executive privilege" and order him forthwith to comply with the Committee's subpoena.

Commenting on the documents that the Oversight Committee is trying to obtain, U.S. Rep.Blake Farenthold (R-Tex.) said, according to an August 15 Newsmax.com article (http://www.newsmax.com/US/farenthold-fast-furious-documents/2012/08/15/id/448656), "There is something either incriminating or very politically explosive in there or they wouldn't be fighting so hard to hold them back--and they wouldn't have called on President Obama to exert executive privilege at the last second."

Farenthold continued, "And the president has said publicly that he didn't know about Fast and Furious as it was going on. So it's pretty clear that he's either misleading us about what he knew or executive privilege doesn't apply."

The article (http://www.newsmax.com/US/farenthold-fast-furious-documents/2012/08/15/id/448656) further notes that Rep. Farenthold, who is on the Oversight Committee, said Monday's lawsuit evolved from the contempt citation.

"The House held the attorney general both in criminal and civil contempt. Under criminal contempt, the Justice Department, which is actually headed by Holder, is supposed to prosecute the case in federal court.

"Our fear, and it seems to have been well-founded, is the Justice Department wasn't going to act on the criminal contempt. So we moved ahead and filed a lawsuit to go into civil court to compel the attorney general to turn over the documents that we've been waiting months for."

Rep. Farenthold concluded, "It's not so much about Holder and the Justice Department and "Fast and Furious" at this point. This is a test of the oversight authority of Congress and our power to get documents from the Executive Branch. If we can't get the documents we need from the agencies that we create and fund, I think our Republic is in grave danger."

gmhr1
08-18-2012, 09:30 PM
If we get B.O. out, all this rot can follow him.

Gerry Clinchy
09-11-2012, 02:16 PM
The DOJ's Inspector General has concluded that ATF and DOJ were negligent in handling the Fast & Furious Operation.

Holder has now given his assurance that he will penalize or fire those responsible.

helencalif
09-12-2012, 12:26 AM
FOX News interviewed Darryl Issa last night. He reported that the Inspector General had completed his investigation report on Fast and Furious in mid-August. It was submitted then to Eric Holder for his review. The IG was due to appear before Issa's congressional hearing this week to go over the report. On Sept 5 and on Sept 7 the IG sent letters to Chairman Issa asking to postpone the hearing because Holder and others at the DOJ were redacting (i.e. changing) his report and removing some sections based upon executive privilege. When they were done, Issa would receive the changed report.

Issa made some good guesses as to what the DOJ was removing from the IG's original report. It has been leaked that the IG did name the higher ups in the DOJ and ATF who were responsible. Issa suspects that those names will be removed from the report. If this is true, it is a fine example of transparency in Obama's administration.If Issa gets a report this week, the hearing on it will be held next week.

The only people Holder will fire are low level expendables who will fall on their sword. Holder has already transferred some of those involved to different jobs to protect them. At least one higher up already "retired" and another left his federal DOJ government position in AZ. Guess he preferred a golden parachute over falling on his sword.

Helen

Gerry Clinchy
09-12-2012, 08:40 AM
Makes me wonder what good it does to have an Inspector General?

I figured that Holder would find some loophole. That "executive privilege" sure does come in handy.

helencalif
09-12-2012, 02:24 PM
I have been Googling Fast and Furious to find out what is being reported about the IG's investigation and leaks that are out about his report. The official report is not out yet; it is undergoing review by the DOJ and parts are being redacted by the DOJ.

Apparently 3 officials in the AZ office are being blamed... but they are not quietly falling on their swords. They have lawyers and they are fighting back, saying that the higher ups in Washington knew all about it and approved the Fast and Furious operation. The higher ups included at least 2 of Holder's DOJ deputies who attended a meeting in Washington DC at the DOJ where a power point presentation was made describing the F&F operation.

Do you think Holder's deputies keep information from their boss? Do you think that Janet Napolitano did not know her agencies were involved in the operation?

If agency heads do not know the operations in which there agency is involved and the extent of that involvement, they should be fired. Holder and Napolitano have to go.

Helen

gmhr1
09-12-2012, 02:42 PM
In Nov we can say goodbye to all of them. Holder and Napolitano have to go!