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LokiMeister
07-12-2012, 02:54 PM
In light of the report released by Freeh today, I think there needs to be something done at least by the NCAA (the victims will get their day in court with their rightful civil lawsuits). The football program needs to be sharply curtailed by gross limits of scholarships or given the death penalty. The blatant disregard for no one but themselves by Joe Pa, the University President, Athletic Director and others shows that the football program ran the university and wasn't "small part" of a "fine" institution. You say that it isn't fair to the future football players and students and fans? I say yes it is. They will not be subjected to overwhelming reprisals that can be felt if they witness something wrong and cannot report it due to the power of the program.

Down East Labs 217
07-12-2012, 03:07 PM
In light of the report released by Freeh today, I think there needs to be something done at least by the NCAA (the victims will get their day in court with their rightful civil lawsuits). The football program needs to be sharply curtailed by gross limits of scholarships or given the death penalty. The blatant disregard for no one but themselves by Joe Pa, the University President, Athletic Director and others shows that the football program ran the university and wasn't "small part" of a "fine" institution. You say that it isn't fair to the future football players and students and fans? I say yes it is. They will not be subjected to overwhelming reprisals that can be felt if they witness something wrong and cannot report it due to the power of the program.

You have lost your mind. The guilty will be tried or have already been found guilty. But you want to punish the kids going to that school. That makes a ton of sense. NOT

Richard

LokiMeister
07-12-2012, 03:18 PM
You have lost your mind. The guilty will be tried or have already been found guilty. But you want to punish the kids going to that school. That makes a ton of sense. NOT

Richard

Simple solution: if it matters that much to you, transfer or don't go in the first place. Part of the guilty party is the program itself, how do you punish it?

BonMallari
07-12-2012, 04:23 PM
Simple solution: if it matters that much to you, transfer or don't go in the first place. Part of the guilty party is the program itself, how do you punish it?


place a levy on their future football revenue from TV and bowl games...The university has already faced damage to their image,giving the FB program the death penalty will not only hurt the academic side but other sports and even those schools that they play and ultimately the Big Ten...they got Sandusky,if they want to pursue the others involved in neglecting to act appropriately then they can do so but they are better off seeking civil judgements against them,criminal ones will be difficult to prove, even with one report

LokiMeister
07-12-2012, 04:57 PM
place a levy on their future football revenue from TV and bowl games...The university has already faced damage to their image,giving the FB program the death penalty will not only hurt the academic side but other sports and even those schools that they play and ultimately the Big Ten...they got Sandusky,if they want to pursue the others involved in neglecting to act appropriately then they can do so but they are better off seeking civil judgements against them,criminal ones will be difficult to prove, even with one report

And the !@#$% will then continue, and you can interpret that how ever you want. Maybe the University needs to be taken down. Don't worry, the Big 10 will be fine. This is just another example of people and government taking advantage of others. When does it stop? I see this as an allegory to the way the country is run. The politicians ONLY care about themselves just like the powers that be at Penn State. The academic side will recover, as I said before, they can transfer to another university.

BonMallari
07-12-2012, 05:16 PM
And the !@#$% will then continue, and you can interpret that how ever you want. Maybe the University needs to be taken down. Don't worry, the Big 10 will be fine. This is just another example of people and government taking advantage of others. When does it stop? I see this as an allegory to the way the country is run. The politicians ONLY care about themselves just like the powers that be at Penn State. The academic side will recover, as I said before, they can transfer to another university.


would you like to take down Notre Dame since they are a Catholic school and looked the other way when all the priests were violating their young parishoners..taking down the whole university PUHLEEZZE..so some undergrad business major has to transfer because of something that the athletic dept did wrong...why dont we just void all the degrees by any past PSU grads while we are at it:rolleyes:..hold those responsible not the university or its students

roseberry
07-12-2012, 05:35 PM
You have lost your mind. The guilty will be tried or have already been found guilty. But you want to punish the kids going to that school. That makes a ton of sense. NOT

Richard

richard,

you are correct, some of the guilty will be tried in the future. one of the guilty has already been convicted. however, joe paterno is dead and will never face the justice his actions deserve.

in my opinion, kevin is correct too. there should be sanctions levied by the ncaa against penn state's athletic programs that have never before been heard of nor concieved(smu included)!

you may be of the opinion that no recruiting violations occurred. for instance, no players/recruits were paid, no agents were in contact with players before their careers ended, no athletes were given money by boosters, etc. i assert that if i was a head coach anywhere in america and i was recruiting a five star linebacker against penn state, i would feel that covering up this kind of criminal activity gives a recruiting advantage that pales in comparison to paying the recruit's family's rent or buying the star a new camaro.

if you believe the report, paterno not only did nothing in '98, he exerted influence to not alert authorities in '01 and his recent deposed testimony is now completely contradicted. it appears paterno, the most powerful man in the states university system had the preservation of his recruiting, his program, his iconic legacy and his total wins competition with bobby bowden ahead of everything. the institution was not in control, paterno was. had paterno done the right thing and exposed the(let's call it what it is and not "sexual abuse") terrorizing, sodomizing and raping of young male children in his own locker room, do you think paterno wins in the living room of one more recruit? i say this cover-up is cheating at the highest level ever documented!

as to punishing the "kids going to that school now", that is the way all ncaa sanctions have always been levied. sanctions never affect say, reggie bush or pete carroll but those that follow. the ncaa's punishment always impacts those that follow. so be it! it is tragic that similarly, paterno himself will not be punished. his family and those that follow will be punished. so be it.

john fallon
07-12-2012, 06:09 PM
High school and college ports are supposed to be extra curricular activities, but in general, with major college football in particular at the forefront, in all but a few of the big time colleges, they are the tail that wags the dog.

The NCAA has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. While this continues nothing will change.'''

Same old same old regards.

john

Franco
07-12-2012, 06:35 PM
richard,

you are correct, some of the guilty will be tried in the future. one of the guilty has already been convicted. however, joe paterno is dead and will never face the justice his actions deserve.

in my opinion, kevin is correct too. there should be sanctions levied by the ncaa against penn state's athletic programs that have never before been heard of nor concieved(smu included)!

you may be of the opinion that no recruiting violations occurred. for instance, no players/recruits were paid, no agents were in contact with players before their careers ended, no athletes were given money by boosters, etc. i assert that if i was a head coach anywhere in america and i was recruiting a five star linebacker against penn state, i would feel that covering up this kind of criminal activity gives a recruiting advantage that pales in comparison to paying the recruit's family's rent or buying the star a new camaro.

if you believe the report, paterno not only did nothing in '98, he exerted influence to not alert authorities in '01 and his recent deposed testimony is now completely contradicted. it appears paterno, the most powerful man in the states university system had the preservation of his recruiting, his program, his iconic legacy and his total wins competition with bobby bowden ahead of everything. the institution was not in control, paterno was. had paterno done the right thing and exposed the(let's call it what it is and not "sexual abuse") terrorizing, sodomizing and raping of young male children in his own locker room, do you think paterno wins in the living room of one more recruit? i say this cover-up is cheating at the highest level ever documented!

as to punishing the "kids going to that school now", that is the way all ncaa sanctions have always been levied. sanctions never affect say, reggie bush or pete carroll but those that follow. the ncaa's punishment always impacts those that follow. so be it! it is tragic that similarly, paterno himself will not be punished. his family and those that follow will be punished. so be it.


Well said!

I was listening to Penn St Alum Mike Compt who does monrings at Atlanta's WGST Radio via an interview with Bobby Hebert on WWL Radio, New Orleans on the way home. Several Big 10 schools have called for expelling Penn St from the Big 10 forever and that it will happen.

One has to feel bad for the fans and students that this situation, through no fault of their own has devastated such a proud Nittany Lion community.

Lets just hope that children that were raped have successfully dealth with this trauma and have some kind of peace in their lives!

Gerry Clinchy
07-12-2012, 07:21 PM
One has to feel bad for the fans and students that this situation, through no fault of their own has devastated such a proud Nittany Lion community.


Yes, one does have to feel bad for the fans and students who took such pride in Penn State ... their loyalty was betrayed by those who allowed this horror to take place.

Joe P did a lot of good for many of his players and fund-raising for the school, it is very sad that he will now be remembered for when he failed to do the right thing for these young boys. Cannot imagine the pain to his family. Imagine how it would feel if it had been your father (or husband, brother or uncle) that had remained silent?

M&K's Retrievers
07-12-2012, 07:45 PM
Yeah, that's the ticket. Kill everyone like they did with SMU to make sure they get all the guilty even those that haven't been born yet. Grow up! Paterno's legacy is ruined as are the lives of the others involved with the cover up and that is as it should be. Even that young coach that only reported the event to Joe is screwed for life even if it's only in his mind. I have never been a Paterno fan. No one can be as squeaky clean as he appeared and he turned out to be the lowest of the low. Isn't that enough for you or should we burn down the school as well?

That's my opinion but I could be wrong.

roseberry
07-12-2012, 09:51 PM
That's my opinion but I could be wrong.


mike,
i don't think the loss of the football program at smu has affected the institutions long term academic reputation. being able to attend a football game on a college campus is something many students at smaller institutions never have the opportunity to enjoy. these students are educated none the less.

as trainers, when we throw a mark and we get creeping, noise, breaking, head swinging etc. we know the bird is more important to our dog than compliance and obedience to our standards. most will use an aversive measure and deny the bird.

at many major college football programs like penn state, success on the field has become more important to the institution, coaches and fans than the most basic standards of behavior in our society. all i'm saying is "deny the bird". not kill the damn dog!

gerry,
the way it looks today, coach paterno didn't remain silent. he spoke up to ensure that others remained silent. very different.


by the way, i was a long time paterno admirer. he appeared class in his 14-7 loss to alabama for the national championship in the 78 sugar bowl. his 17-14 spanking of miami and vinny testaverde in the 86 orange bowl was a masterpiece in defensive preparedness and in my view the best coached defensive game of any national championship matchup ever. but as we all know, power corrupts, absolute power.............

M&K's Retrievers
07-12-2012, 10:22 PM
mike,
i don't think the loss of the football program at smu has affected the institutions long term academic reputation. being able to attend a football game on a college campus is something many students at smaller institutions never have the opportunity to enjoy. these students are educated none the less.

as trainers, when we throw a mark and we get creeping, noise, breaking, head swinging etc. we know the bird is more important to our dog than compliance and obedience to our standards. most will use an aversive measure and deny the bird.

at many major college football programs like penn state, success on the field has become more important to the institution, coaches and fans than the most basic standards of behavior in our society. all i'm saying is "deny the bird". not kill the damn dog!

gerry,
the way it looks today, coach paterno didn't remain silent. he spoke up to ensure that others remained silent. very different.


by the way, i was a long time paterno admirer. he appeared class in his 14-7 loss to alabama for the national championship in the 78 sugar bowl. his 17-14 spanking of miami and vinny testaverde in the 86 orange bowl was a masterpiece in defensive preparedness and in my view the best coached defensive game of any national championship matchup ever. but as we all know, power corrupts, absolute power.............

If your dog breaks, don't deny my dog his bird.

Gerry Clinchy
07-12-2012, 11:33 PM
gerry,
the way it looks today, coach paterno didn't remain silent. he spoke up to ensure that others remained silent. very different.


Yes, I see your point ... a terribly sad legacy to leave behind for those who thought so highly of the man & never suspected what was going on behind the scenes.

cripes
07-13-2012, 05:26 AM
Sports build character.....Sports build character.........Sports build........????

roseberry
07-13-2012, 07:12 AM
If your dog breaks, don't deny my dog his bird.

good point mike! though i think in this instance the all age dogs looking through the louvers of their hole on the truck could actually learn something from the corrections issued to the dog currently on the matt. then again, maybe not?

LokiMeister
07-13-2012, 08:38 AM
If your dog breaks, don't deny my dog his bird.

By eliminating Penn States football program you aren't denying anybody anything that they are at the university for, an education. Players will find other places to play and you shouldn't pick a university for it's football if you are only in academia. The problem is so rooted in that program that numerous people chose to break the law. One has to ask, why wasn't Sandusky a coach anymore? Many coaches coach into their 60's and 70's. Why didn't Sandusky? You know darn well that a pedophile just doesn't start doing this in his 40's. I'll bet Sandusky did something earlier than 1998 that caused the program to get rid of a very good coach.

Look at Enron. The heads of that company were corrupt, the subordinates lost their jobs, ie. they moved on. That is the way it is. Why should Penn State be any different?

M&K's Retrievers
07-13-2012, 09:13 AM
By eliminating Penn States football program you aren't denying anybody anything that they are at the university for, an education. Players will find other places to play and you shouldn't pick a university for it's football if you are only in academia. The problem is so rooted in that program that numerous people chose to break the law. One has to ask, why wasn't Sandusky a coach anymore? Many coaches coach into their 60's and 70's. Why didn't Sandusky? You know darn well that a pedophile just doesn't start doing this in his 40's. I'll bet Sandusky did something earlier than 1998 that caused the program to get rid of a very good coach.

Look at Enron. The heads of that company were corrupt, the subordinates lost their jobs, ie. they moved on. That is the way it is. Why should Penn State be any different?

What exactly do you hope to accomplish by eliminating Penn States football program? What about the effect that would have on other sports at Penn State that are funded by the football program?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a Penn State fan and have never cared for Paterno and his "clean" program. It's a shame he doesn't have to answer for this here but I suspect he is elsewhere.

What you suggest punishes far too many. SMU hasn't recovered for the "death penalty" and it's been 25 years.

LokiMeister
07-13-2012, 09:35 AM
What exactly do you hope to accomplish by eliminating Penn States football program? What about the effect that would have on other sports at Penn State that are funded by the football program?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a Penn State fan and have never cared for Paterno and his "clean" program. It's a shame he doesn't have to answer for this here but I suspect he is elsewhere.

What you suggest punishes far too many. SMU hasn't recovered for the "death penalty" and it's been 25 years.

Very simply, it eliminates, hopefully, the power that the football program has. Remember, the NCAA isn't punishing anybody in reality. It is the people that did the crimes that are doing the punishing. It's like a bad employee that is fired. Usually, you don't fire them, they normally fire themselves. You are just making it official. Sports, like government, controls way to much in this society. Time to take some of that control back.

What do you mean SMU's program hasn't recovered? They play football at SMU. Why do they have to rise up to the level they were at to be recovered? Why can't the current staff elevate the team to it's former prominence? Sounds like bad coaching to me.

M&K's Retrievers
07-13-2012, 11:23 AM
Very simply, it eliminates, hopefully, the power that the football program has. Remember, the NCAA isn't punishing anybody in reality. It is the people that did the crimes that are doing the punishing. It's like a bad employee that is fired. Usually, you don't fire them, they normally fire themselves. You are just making it official. Sports, like government, controls way to much in this society. Time to take some of that control back.

What do you mean SMU's program hasn't recovered? They play football at SMU. Why do they have to rise up to the level they were at to be recovered? Why can't the current staff elevate the team to it's former prominence? Sounds like bad coaching to me.

The NCAA is not punishing anybody as there are no NCAA violations. The people responsible are being punished in one way or another. There is no need to punish the innocent.Cratering Penn State's football program will do nothing to correct what you see as as problem. You sound as if you have an axe to grind with Penn State or at the very least you would like to do away with football's contributions to the colleges. Good luck with that.

As for SMU recovering. Hardly. They continue to play in a marginal conference. A quarter of a century later and they can't draw fans, recruits or a decent coaching staff. Television money, alumni contribution, etc. suck. Also, the SMU Death Penalty also contributed to the demise of the Southwest Conference.

LokiMeister
07-13-2012, 11:42 AM
The NCAA is not punishing anybody as there are no NCAA violations. The people responsible are being punished in one way or another. There is no need to punish the innocent.Cratering Penn State's football program will do nothing to correct what you see as as problem. You sound as if you have an axe to grind with Penn State or at the very least you would like to do away with football's contributions to the colleges. Good luck with that.

As for SMU recovering. Hardly. They continue to play in a marginal conference. A quarter of a century later and they can't draw fans, recruits or a decent coaching staff. Television money, alumni contribution, etc. suck. Also, the SMU Death Penalty also contributed to the demise of the Southwest Conference.

Isn't the coverup is related to football which is part of the NCAA? Isn't Penn State University part of the NCAA? Isn't the coverup a direct result of the power the football team has over the rest of the school? PSU went to Paterno's house to fire him and he said no you're not going to fire me. Isn't that too much power? Isn't it corrupt that an EMPLOYEE says to their employer you're not going to fire me? Don't you see anything wrong with this?

I don't have a problem with the football product or any other athletic product that PSU has fielded. In fact, I appreciate the fact that PSU is starting a hockey program allowing the Big Ten to have a hockey conference. It will give my university, Minnesota a chance to get back at PSU for all the football drubbings over the years. I love college football and other college sports. I appreciate what they bring to the college life. What I don't like is they have entirely too much influence on what is supposed to be EXTRAcurricular, not the basic reason for being. The fault of that can be television money.

SMU barely contributed to the demise of the Southwest Conference. You have to show me proof of that. Television money is what contributed to the demise of that conference.

bobbyb
07-13-2012, 11:51 AM
Paterno knew what was going down.. the reason he kept it quiet was because he wanted to win more games then Coach Bryant..

BobbyB
cajun

BonMallari
07-13-2012, 12:07 PM
Isn't the coverup is related to football which is part of the NCAA? Isn't Penn State University part of the NCAA? Isn't the coverup a direct result of the power the football team has over the rest of the school? PSU went to Paterno's house to fire him and he said no you're not going to fire me. Isn't that too much power? Isn't it corrupt that an EMPLOYEE says to their employer you're not going to fire me? Don't you see anything wrong with this?

I don't have a problem with the football product or any other athletic product that PSU has fielded. In fact, I appreciate the fact that PSU is starting a hockey program allowing the Big Ten to have a hockey conference. It will give my university, Minnesota a chance to get back at PSU for all the football drubbings over the years. I love college football and other college sports. I appreciate what they bring to the college life. What I don't like is they have entirely too much influence on what is supposed to be EXTRAcurricular, not the basic reason for being. The fault of that can be television money.

SMU barely contributed to the demise of the Southwest Conference. You have to show me proof of that. Television money is what contributed to the demise of that conference.


You didnt live in Dallas like Mike and I did during that time...SMU went from playing for National Championships and having games at Texas Stadium to nothing..they had Eric Dickerson and Craig James, they stomped my Horns, just flat out beat em...they not only hurt the school , it also hurt their main rival across town in TCU..the death penalty at SMU sent shockwaves thru the SWC..lots of in state kids left to play in the SEC and the west coast..SMU is a VERY affluent school, the neighborhood is one of THE wealthiest in Dallas, its the old Dallas money, but their reputation was destroyed, still is to this day...was probably the straw that broke the SWC's back,because before they came along it was TEXAS and a bunch of also rans..SMU showed other Texas schools that they could recruit in state along with UT and Oklahoma (who was still in the Big 8 at the time)

Marvin S
07-13-2012, 12:15 PM
As for SMU recovering. Hardly. They continue to play in a marginal conference. A quarter of a century later and they can't draw fans, recruits or a decent coaching staff. Television money, alumni contribution, etc. suck. Also, the SMU Death Penalty also contributed to the demise of the Southwest Conference.

Stupid actions warrant consequences - Oral Roberts did the same thing in Basketball, on their own. They are now playing their way back up the competitve ladder :cool:.


In fact, I appreciate the fact that PSU is starting a hockey program allowing the Big Ten to have a hockey conference. It will give my university, Minnesota a chance to get back at PSU for all the football drubbings over the years. I love college football and other college sports. I appreciate what they bring to the college life. What I don't like is they have entirely too much influence on what is supposed to be EXTRAcurricular, not the basic reason for being. The fault of that can be television money.

SMU barely contributed to the demise of the Southwest Conference. You have to show me proof of that. Television money is what contributed to the demise of that conference.

I remember when MN had a FB program of merit :). Didn't someone on this thread say some higher ups were pushing to kick PSU out of the Big 10.

In case you missed it Loki, there is an annual award given called the Doak Walker award - guess where he went to school. I'd personally like to see another SWC, gives a regional flavor to the sport.

But I do agree with you that a university exists to provide education. When was the last time a Heisman winner participated in a meaningful curriculum while in college?

But after all is said & done, Freeh's report is very harmful to all those who chose to forget about the victims. The 14 Mil that the Paterno's got from PSU is going to look like chicken feed when the kids who were abused have their day in court. The family is engaged in damage control as they have learned from a master how to put your own selfish interests 1st & foremost :o.

LokiMeister
07-13-2012, 12:18 PM
You didnt live in Dallas like Mike and I did during that time...SMU went from playing for National Championships and having games at Texas Stadium to nothing..they had Eric Dickerson and Craig James, they stomped my Horns, just flat out beat em...they not only hurt the school , it also hurt their main rival across town in TCU..the death penalty at SMU sent shockwaves thru the SWC..lots of in state kids left to play in the SEC and the west coast..SMU is a VERY affluent school, the neighborhood is one of THE wealthiest in Dallas, its the old Dallas money, but their reputation was destroyed, still is to this day...was probably the straw that broke the SWC's back,because before they came along it was TEXAS and a bunch of also rans..SMU showed other Texas schools that they could recruit in state along with UT and Oklahoma (who was still in the Big 8 at the time)

I would argue that they got what was coming to them. They cheated, the people who did the cheating destroyed SMU's reputation. It seems that the people don't want a program that is all powerful.

TCU beat heavily favored Wisconsin in the 2011 (?) Rose Bowl. They seem to be doing well, what's SMU's problem?

M&K's Retrievers
07-13-2012, 01:09 PM
I would argue that they got what was coming to them. They cheated, the people who did the cheating destroyed SMU's reputation. It seems that the people don't want a program that is all powerful.

TCU beat heavily favored Wisconsin in the 2011 (?) Rose Bowl. They seem to be doing well, what's SMU's problem?

Wondering how you can compare TCU to SMU. SMU got the death penalty not TCU. SMU lost two seasons, lost 55 scholarships, coaching staff reduced to 6, existing team members allowed to transfer to other schools without having to sit out a season to name a few.

The NCAA has never given the death penalty out since. They know they blew it and that the results of their penalties far exceeded their intent.

LokiMeister
07-13-2012, 01:23 PM
Wondering how you can compare TCU to SMU. SMU got the death penalty not TCU. SMU lost two seasons, lost 55 scholarships, coaching staff reduced to 6, existing team members allowed to transfer to other schools without having to sit out a season to name a few.

BonMallari did originally, see his post #23. I didn't understand how he could either, I just responded to it.

LokiMeister
07-13-2012, 01:26 PM
The NCAA has never given the death penalty out since. They know they blew it and that the results of their penalties far exceeded their intent.

That would be incorrect:

The death penalty is the popular term for the National Collegiate Athletic Association's power to ban a school from competing in a sport for at least one year. It is the harshest penalty that an NCAA member school can receive.

It has been implemented only five times:

The University of Kentucky basketball program for the 1952–53 season.[1]
The basketball program at the University of Southwestern Louisiana (now the University of Louisiana at Lafayette) for the 1973–74 and 1974–75 seasons.
The Southern Methodist University football program for the 1987 and 1988 seasons.
The Division II men's soccer program at Morehouse College for the 2004 and 2005 seasons.
The Division III men's tennis program at MacMurray College for the 2005–06 and 2006–07 seasons

M&K's Retrievers
07-13-2012, 02:48 PM
That would be incorrect:

The death penalty is the popular term for the National Collegiate Athletic Association's power to ban a school from competing in a sport for at least one year. It is the harshest penalty that an NCAA member school can receive.

It has been implemented only five times:

The University of Kentucky basketball program for the 1952–53 season.[1]
The basketball program at the University of Southwestern Louisiana (now the University of Louisiana at Lafayette) for the 1973–74 and 1974–75 seasons.
The Southern Methodist University football program for the 1987 and 1988 seasons.****
The Division II men's soccer program at Morehouse College for the 2004 and 2005 seasons.
The Division III men's tennis program at MacMurray College for the 2005–06 and 2006–07 seasons

**** Plus 55 lost scholarships, reduction in coaching staff to 6 (4 of which could recruit off campus) and allowed their existing team to transfer which most did. No other school has received this harsh punishment.

I'll let you have the last word cause I'm not a big SMU fan either. Leave Penn State football alone. Had Paterno had knowledge of an assistant who robbed a bank should the team be penalized? Penalize the team for NCAA violations.

LokiMeister
07-13-2012, 02:50 PM
**** Plus 55 lost scholarships, reduction in coaching staff to 6 (4 of which could recruit off campus) and allowed their existing team to transfer which most did.

Yes, you mentioned that before. Are those restrictions still in place?

M&K's Retrievers
07-13-2012, 03:03 PM
Yes, you mentioned that before. Are those restrictions still in place?

No. Lasted 4 years I think.

Franco
07-13-2012, 04:05 PM
That would be incorrect:

The death penalty is the popular term for the National Collegiate Athletic Association's power to ban a school from competing in a sport for at least one year. It is the harshest penalty that an NCAA member school can receive.

It has been implemented only five times:

The University of Kentucky basketball program for the 1952–53 season.[1]
The basketball program at the University of Southwestern Louisiana (now the University of Louisiana at Lafayette) for the 1973–74 and 1974–75 seasons.
The Southern Methodist University football program for the 1987 and 1988 seasons.
The Division II men's soccer program at Morehouse College for the 2004 and 2005 seasons.
The Division III men's tennis program at MacMurray College for the 2005–06 and 2006–07 seasons

A small corection is in order. The very first Death Penalty issued by the NCAA was the UL(then USL) situation 1973-75. The one that you have listed before it was a self-imposed Death penalties. UL at that time was found guilty of 125 NCAA violations ranging from buying a recruit a sandwich to providing a student with a car. Violations that today would only be a slap on the wrist.

M&K's Retrievers
07-13-2012, 04:36 PM
A small corection is in order. The very first Death Penalty issued by the NCAA was the UL(then USL) situation 1973-75. The one that you have listed before it was a self-imposed Death penalties. UL at that time was found guilty of 125 NCAA violations ranging from buying a recruit a sandwich to providing a student with a car. Violations that today would only be a slap on the wrist.

Oh, there is no doubt about it. SMU was as guilty as you could get. And not very smart about it either.

roseberry
07-13-2012, 04:39 PM
*Had Paterno had knowledge of an assistant who robbed a bank should the team be penalized? .

if paterno obtained knowledge of a robbery, tried to ignore it, then later obtained knowledge of another robbery and influenced others not to report it, hid the stolen money from robbery in the penn state locker room, allowed the robber to keep an office, his all access pass and keys to the penn state football facilities and then allowed that robber to dangle the carrot of his office, influence and access to lure unsuspecting bankers into the facility to be robbed over and over and over for 15 years..............uh yeah, i think the ncaa would be concerned and find a way to use its "lack of institutional control" jusirdiction! why because it's money!

if an assistant football coach takes a recruit and his family to lunch during an on campus visit and accidentally picks up the tab for recruit's little sister's lunch(not allowed) in addition to mom's and dad's(allowed), the ncaa can cite an infraction. i cannot understand how institutionally allowing the raping young boys and covering it up for two decades just so the coach at ohio state can't come into pennsylvania and remind top recruits and their parents about "what goes on over at penn state" is not as important as that lunch. becoming ongoing accomplices to the most heinous crimes in society simply to preserve the status quo in your recruiting efforts..........no ncaa violation i have ever heard of is as obvious as this.

LokiMeister
07-13-2012, 04:41 PM
A small corection is in order. The very first Death Penalty issued by the NCAA was the UL(then USL) situation 1973-75. The one that you have listed before it was a self-imposed Death penalties. UL at that time was found guilty of 125 NCAA violations ranging from buying a recruit a sandwich to providing a student with a car. Violations that today would only be a slap on the wrist.

This website begs to differ: http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php?title=NCAA_Death_Penalty

Where's your website?

BonMallari
07-13-2012, 05:41 PM
BonMallari did originally, see his post #23. I didn't understand how he could either, I just responded to it.


I mentioned TCU because SMU's penalty hurt TCU across town, they were in the SWC at the time and a rival of the Ponies...TCU has fought hard to bring their program back to the big time, but they are not an easy school to get into

Franco
07-13-2012, 05:49 PM
This website begs to differ: http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php?title=NCAA_Death_Penalty

Where's your website?

Your source is incorrect. Kentucky instituted their own Death Penalty and not the NCAA. 60 years later some may try to attribute it to the NCAA but, ask any Kentucky fan from that era and they will tell you that Kentucky decided it was best to punish themselves! It wasn't until after the U of K suspended thier program that the NCAA sanctioned it.

Marvin S
07-13-2012, 06:22 PM
Your source is incorrect. Kentucky instituted their own Death Penalty and not the NCAA. 60 years later some may try to attribute it to the NCAA but, ask any Kentucky fan from that era and they will tell you that Kentucky decided it was best to punish themselves! It wasn't until after the U of K suspended thier program that the NCAA sanctioned it.

If my memory serves me correctly :), those would have been the Indianapolis Olympians. The Olympians being the entire Kentucky starting five! I wish I had the papers at the time as I believe the NCAA had their nose in it big time. That was about the time that CCNY was found to be on the take after winning both the NCAA & NIT, beating Bradley twice in 1950. Sherman White of LIU lost his opportunity to be one of the all time greats of the sport, & there were others of less notoriety at most of the East Coast schools of note in that day. I don't believe that came about without heavy NCAA involvement, not an opinion as the sports writers of that day were a notch above what passes for anything remotely competent today.

Eric Johnson
07-13-2012, 06:59 PM
I would say that the first thing that needs to be done is that the Paterno statue should be removed from the stadium in the dark of night. There doesn't need to be any hoopla or press releases. Just remove all vestiges of Paterno from that "shrine". Otherwise, every visitor will walk by and this debate will continue forever. In addition, if there are any televised games, you know that the statue will be featured.

Franco
07-13-2012, 08:41 PM
If my memory serves me correctly :), those would have been the Indianapolis Olympians. The Olympians being the entire Kentucky starting five! I wish I had the papers at the time as I believe the NCAA had their nose in it big time. That was about the time that CCNY was found to be on the take after winning both the NCAA & NIT, beating Bradley twice in 1950. Sherman White of LIU lost his opportunity to be one of the all time greats of the sport, & there were others of less notoriety at most of the East Coast schools of note in that day. I don't believe that came about without heavy NCAA involvement, not an opinion as the sports writers of that day were a notch above what passes for anything remotely competent today.

Yes they were. One of the things I enjoy today is when some of the oldtimers in Sports Broadcasting come around and visit. Our KPEL am & fm is celebrating 50 Seasons Of UL Athletics. That's how long those stations have been the voice of athletics for the Ragin Cajuns.

On another note, when a lot of sports information was being transfered to digital in the early and mid 90's, all of the information that was transfered was not transfered accurately. That info was taken at face value though there may have been other factors more important to the story. In short, everything one reads that is historical on the internet is not always reflective of reality.

Gerry Clinchy
07-14-2012, 06:00 PM
I think I might have to retract some of my sympathy for the Paterno family. They have strongly criticized the results of the Freeh investigation.

They also fought for the $5.5 million package of goodies in Joe's contract, in spite of the fact that he was fired with cause. There was a $3 million bonus in there for retiring at the end of the 2011 season. Joe's wife gets use of the hydratherapy service of the University; as well as 25 years of a box suite at Beaver Stadium for the family. The line was drawn, however, on the use of the Penn State private jet. The deal also included forgiveness of $350,000 in loans to Paterno from the University. One might think that with the $3 million, they could actually pay for the hydratherapy and pay off the loans.

The saddest part is that if both Paterno and the University had done the right thing & taken action immediately (back in 1998), they could have retained their integrity & protected those kids. They would have been heroes. Any "scandal" that might have resulted would have been nothing compared to what's happened now. Sort of makes me wonder what Sandusky had on them that made them leave him alone.

charly_t
07-14-2012, 06:37 PM
I think I might have to retract some of my sympathy for the Paterno family. They have strongly criticized the results of the Freeh investigation.

They also fought for the $5.5 million package of goodies in Joe's contract, in spite of the fact that he was fired with cause. There was a $3 million bonus in there for retiring at the end of the 2011 season. Joe's wife gets use of the hydratherapy service of the University; as well as 25 years of a box suite at Beaver Stadium for the family. The line was drawn, however, on the use of the Penn State private jet. The deal also included forgiveness of $350,000 in loans to Paterno from the University. One might think that with the $3 million, they could actually pay for the hydratherapy and pay off the loans.

The saddest part is that if both Paterno and the University had done the right thing & taken action immediately (back in 1998), they could have retained their integrity & protected those kids. They would have been heroes. Any "scandal" that might have resulted would have been nothing compared to what's happened now. Sort of makes me wonder what Sandusky had on them that made them leave him alone.

Interesting people, the Paternos !

I had never thought about your idea in last sentence.

LokiMeister
07-15-2012, 10:36 AM
Your source is incorrect. Kentucky instituted their own Death Penalty and not the NCAA. 60 years later some may try to attribute it to the NCAA but, ask any Kentucky fan from that era and they will tell you that Kentucky decided it was best to punish themselves! It wasn't until after the U of K suspended thier program that the NCAA sanctioned it.

With all due respect, if/when you find a source to substantiate your claim, please post it. Thank you.

LokiMeister
07-15-2012, 10:40 AM
One thing I never seen mentioned is any spectulation as to Sandusky victims before 1998. You know he just didn't start doing this at the age of 54. I believe he started Second Mile in the 70's, closed it in 1988, but kept their licence until 1999.

Eric Johnson
07-15-2012, 12:11 PM
http://blog.al.com/wire/2012/07/artist_paints_over_paternos_ha.html

http://tinyurl.com/d2uyccr

Artist paints over Paterno's halo on Pennsylvania mural

STATE COLLEGE, Pa. An artist has removed a halo from a mural of Penn State football coach Joe Paterno amid the school's child sex-abuse scandal.

Michael Pilato had put a halo over Paterno's image after the beloved coach's death in January, but said he felt he had to remove it Saturday after a report that Paterno, former university president Graham Spanier and others buried allegations of child sex-abuse against ex-assistant Jerry Sandusky. Paterno's family denies the claim.

-more-

LokiMeister
07-15-2012, 01:21 PM
Your source is incorrect. Kentucky instituted their own Death Penalty and not the NCAA. 60 years later some may try to attribute it to the NCAA but, ask any Kentucky fan from that era and they will tell you that Kentucky decided it was best to punish themselves! It wasn't until after the U of K suspended thier program that the NCAA sanctioned it.

Franco, isn't your arguement a mute point anyway as self sanctions are a way to tell the NCAA what the institition is going to do? If UK did nothing, the NCAA probably would have given them the DP anyway?

waterdog711
07-18-2012, 07:18 PM
If the NCAA feels it has any possiblity of being dragged into these Penn State lawsuits or one in the future, they will most likely come forward with a stiff sanction and some new rules to try and blunt any effort to show they looked the other way in the Sandusky case or would tolerate not reporting it to the cops in the future.

Franco
07-18-2012, 09:30 PM
Franco, isn't your arguement a mute point anyway as self sanctions are a way to tell the NCAA what the institition is going to do? If UK did nothing, the NCAA probably would have given them the DP anyway?

UK knew the NCAA was on to them. They committed suicide before the NCAA executed them. Then, the NCAA took credit for the suicide.

BonMallari
07-18-2012, 10:08 PM
UK knew the NCAA was on to them. They committed suicide before the NCAA executed them. Then, the NCAA took credit for the suicide.


the old "poison pill defense"....

LokiMeister
07-19-2012, 08:29 AM
UK knew the NCAA was on to them. They committed suicide before the NCAA executed them. Then, the NCAA took credit for the suicide.

As YOU like to say, semantics...

ARay11
07-19-2012, 12:15 PM
Personal Responsibility:

I would love to see coaches, players, and admin all sign contracts with their NCAA schools which read:

IF YOU CAUSE MY UNIVERSITY A PROBLEM, YOU PAY FOR IT.

Reggie Bush and Eric Dickerson (and many many others) cost their universities millions. They should repay them. Universities should be able to pursue them, the recruiter, coaches, and anyone else involved for damages.

It is a sad state of affairs. Coaches can win National titles, athletes can obtain big time contracts in the NFL, and all the admin has to do is smile while counting the money the "program" brings in. When the fire gets hot, all they have to do is bail out and there are zero consequences. Coaches and administrators develop plausible deniability and gain employment elsewhere. Players are not denied by the NFL. They all get to keep everything they stole.

Until the NCAA punishes those responsible for problems, and not the incoming students, players, and coaches.... these infractions will continue

mngundog
07-19-2012, 12:54 PM
Personal Responsibility:

I would love to see coaches, players, and admin all sign contracts with their NCAA schools which read:

IF YOU CAUSE MY UNIVERSITY A PROBLEM, YOU PAY FOR IT.

Reggie Bush and Eric Dickerson (and many many others) cost their universities millions. They should repay them. Universities should be able to pursue them, the recruiter, coaches, and anyone else involved for damages.

It is a sad state of affairs. Coaches can win National titles, athletes can obtain big time contracts in the NFL, and all the admin has to do is smile while counting the money the "program" brings in. When the fire gets hot, all they have to do is bail out and there are zero consequences. Coaches and administrators develop plausible deniability and gain employment elsewhere. Players are not denied by the NFL. They all get to keep everything they stole.

Until the NCAA punishes those responsible for problems, and not the incoming students, players, and coaches.... these infractions will continue
Wasn't Eric Dickerson on the payroll at SMU? USC didn't know about Bush's gifts? Cam Newton? Come on now, these Universities know full well whats going on and accept it because they are making millions off them. The Universities shouldn't be allowed to pursue any of them, because in just about every case if they aren't involved they certainly know whats going on. I would think that when your quarterback is driving 8 new cars in 3 years at school "ala Terrele Pryor" that may raise a red flag, the Universities either look away or are the ones directly involved.

ARay11
07-19-2012, 01:04 PM
Wasn't Eric Dickerson on the payroll at SMU? USC didn't know about Bush's gifts? Cam Newton? Come on now, these Universities know full well whats going on and accept it because they are making millions off them. The Universities shouldn't be allowed to pursue any of them, because in just about every case if they aren't involved they certainly know whats going on. I would think that when your quarterback is driving 8 new cars in 3 years at school "ala Terrele Pryor" that may raise a red flag, the Universities either look away or are the ones directly involved.

If the individuals involved were held responsible would the next round of players do the same? If Cam Newton watched Reggie Bush pay out the nose would he still have been on the take? If Pete Carroll had to pay the university for every scholarship lost would the next coach think twice if he saw his QB in a new car?

True enough, the fish stinks from the head down.

BUT... no crooked university would be able to hire a coach or recruit players if the players and coaches thought it might harm them personally.

mngundog
07-19-2012, 01:13 PM
If the individuals involved were held responsible would the next round of players do the same? If Cam Newton watched Reggie Bush pay out the nose would he still have been on the take? If Pete Carroll had to pay the university for every scholarship lost would the next coach think twice if he saw his QB in a new car?

True enough, the fish stinks from the head down.

BUT... no crooked university would be able to hire a coach or recruit players if the players and coaches thought it might harm them personally.
Why should Pete Carroll, Joe Pa, Reggie Bush, etc have to pay the University who was actively participating in the activity? SMU University payed their players, yet the players should have to pay the University back because they got caught? It would be like a hooker having to pay her pimp because she got arrested.

ARay11
07-19-2012, 02:10 PM
Why should Pete Carroll, Joe Pa, Reggie Bush, etc have to pay the University who was actively participating in the activity? SMU University payed their players, yet the players should have to pay the University back because they got caught? It would be like a hooker having to pay her pimp because she got arrested.

the hooker got arrested

Pete Carroll, Joe Pa, Reggie Bush, etc had ZERO liability, ZERO consequence.

BonMallari
07-19-2012, 02:35 PM
Why should Pete Carroll, Joe Pa, Reggie Bush, etc have to pay the University who was actively participating in the activity? SMU University payed their players, yet the players should have to pay the University back because they got caught? It would be like a hooker having to pay her pimp because she got arrested.


in Reggie Bush' case he was guilty of taking payments in the form of a house for his folks from some guys that were leveraging it against his future earnings and promising to sign with them when he turned pro. USC got popped for using him as a player since he was ineligible by NCAA standards...He cost them millions, really disgraced the Heisman Trophy award too

mngundog
07-19-2012, 07:10 PM
in Reggie Bush' case he was guilty of taking payments in the form of a house for his folks from some guys that were leveraging it against his future earnings and promising to sign with them when he turned pro. USC got popped for using him as a player since he was ineligible by NCAA standards...He cost them millions, really disgraced the Heisman Trophy award too

Reggie Bush's Impala was featured in DUB magazine along with the cars of the rich and famous, red flag maybe? Then their was OJ Mayo, and other sports at USC that were responsible for the sanctions. The NCAA sanctioned them because payouts were the culture at USC. The Heisman committee disgraced themselves by ignoring the obvious.

BonMallari
07-23-2012, 08:28 AM
it wasnt the Death Penalty, but for all intents and purposes it might as well have been....the Big Ten just became the Big Nine

road kill
07-23-2012, 08:35 AM
it wasnt the Death Penalty, but for all intents and purposes it might as well have been....the Big Ten just became the Big Nine

Penn State fined $60 million??

BFD.........who do you think will pay that???

No one envolved, only future students.:rolleyes:

gmhr1
07-23-2012, 08:43 AM
I just heard a 60 million dollar fine and stripped from their wins from 1998-2011 hey lose 20 scholarships a year for 4 years plus a 4year ban on bowl games

LokiMeister
07-23-2012, 08:49 AM
Penn State fined $60 million??

BFD.........who do you think will pay that???

No one envolved, only future students.:rolleyes:

What would you have done?

road kill
07-23-2012, 09:03 AM
What would you have done?

I am not exactly sure as I do not know all the options available.
But charging a public institution a monetary penalty makes me think that taxpayers will ultimately pay the freight.
I think some things specifically done to the football program would be appropriate.
Possibly the AD as well.
$60 million is an eye popping number, what does it correct?
WHO do YOU think will pay that??



The thing is, none of the perps are involved in this punishment, so that is sort of off to me.

mngundog
07-23-2012, 09:19 AM
it wasnt the Death Penalty, but for all intents and purposes it might as well have been....the Big Ten just became the Big Nine
The big ten has twelve schools. :D

LokiMeister
07-23-2012, 09:31 AM
I am not exactly sure as I do not know all the options available.
But charging a public institution a monetary penalty makes me think that taxpayers will ultimately pay the freight.
I think some things specifically done to the football program would be appropriate.
Possibly the AD as well.
$60 million is an eye popping number, what does it correct?
WHO do YOU think will pay that??



The thing is, none of the perps are involved in this punishment, so that is sort of off to me.

There are things done specifically to the football program, loss of scholarships, no bowls, five years of probation. At least the players can transfer and immediately play at their new school. The students and taxpayers WILL pay but so will the alumni and fans that won't get to see this program for a while. Ultimately, everybody loses in this situation.

mngundog
07-23-2012, 09:34 AM
I am not exactly sure as I do not know all the options available.
But charging a public institution a monetary penalty makes me think that taxpayers will ultimately pay the freight.
I think some things specifically done to the football program would be appropriate.
Possibly the AD as well.
$60 million is an eye popping number, what does it correct?
WHO do YOU think will pay that??

The thing is, none of the perps are involved in this punishment, so that is sort of off to me.
$60 million is the annual revenue Penn States football team pulls in.

M&K's Retrievers
07-23-2012, 10:17 AM
What would you have done?

I would be pumping daylight to the guilty parties and leave the innocent alone. I don't care for Penn State but don't like punishing those who had nothing to do with the crime.

LokiMeister
07-23-2012, 10:32 AM
I would be pumping daylight to the guilty parties and leave the innocent alone. I don't care for Penn State but don't like punishing those who had nothing to do with the crime.

So you would do nothing about the pervasive, systemic, football first, culture at Penn State? So you let the mentality continue, unchecked? Wow. I think this is the least they should have done. I bet you more people are guilty than we think in this mentality around the USA. This "might" send a message to them, I doubt it.

The football first mentality at PSU goes from the President through the Head Coach all the way down to the janitors. The message is, don't do ANYTHING to harm the football program, or don't do anything we might have to cover up later. By doing nothing this is what you are saying.

YOU can chose to not watch college football.

LokiMeister
07-23-2012, 11:12 AM
I would be pumping daylight to the guilty parties and leave the innocent alone. I don't care for Penn State but don't like punishing those who had nothing to do with the crime.

What about the innocent boys that were harmed by Sandusky because of the culture of the football program at Penn State? If the powers that be would have done something, ALL of those boys would have better lives. Now they have shame and embarrassment in their psyche. Sure, Sandusky is getting what's his, but he could have been stopped and wasn't. To do nothing would be terrible.

ARay11
07-23-2012, 11:25 AM
There are things done specifically to the football program, loss of scholarships, no bowls, five years of probation. At least the players can transfer and immediately play at their new school. The students and taxpayers WILL pay but so will the alumni and fans that won't get to see this program for a while. Ultimately, everybody loses in this situation.


Everyone who had nothing to do with any of it loses. Those who had anything to do with it are off doing other things now.

Who (if anyone) involved is still employed/enrolled at PSU?

ARay11
07-23-2012, 11:31 AM
What about the innocent boys that were harmed by Sandusky because of the culture of the football program at Penn State? If the powers that be would have done something, ALL of those boys would have better lives. Now they have shame and embarrassment in their psyche. Sure, Sandusky is getting what's his, but he could have been stopped and wasn't. To do nothing would be terrible.

The boys were harmed BY Sandusky, and that crime was assisted BY Paterno, the AD, and all other Administrators and coaches who were told but did nothing. Every one of them should be brought up on charges of aiding and abetting a known crime.

The driver of the get-away car goes to jail too.

LokiMeister
07-23-2012, 11:36 AM
The boys were harmed BY Sandusky, and that crime was assisted BY Paterno, the AD, and all other Administrators and coaches who were told but did nothing. Every one of them should be brought up on charges of aiding and abetting a known crime.

The driver of the get-away car goes to jail too.

Of course.

But what about the CULTURE at Penn State? How is that changed by doing nothing to the program?

Not sure what you mean about the driver of the get-away car.

ARay11
07-23-2012, 11:43 AM
Of course.

But what about the CULTURE at Penn State? How is that changed by doing nothing to the program?

Not sure what you mean about the driver of the get-away car.

There's nothing wrong with the CURRENT culture at PSU, is there? Show me.

What WAS wrong is not necessarily what IS wrong. If there's a new sheriff in town (admin) and new deputies (coaches, AD, etc) What would be wrong with the current culture?

Anyone who knew the crime was being committed and did nothing but help Sandusky continue his sickness might as well be driving the get away car for a bank robber. The admin and even the beloved paterno gave sandusky continued access to the facilities at PSU. They should all be criminally charged and punished.

ARay11
07-23-2012, 11:48 AM
BTW: The "culture" of PSU will be punished to the nth degree when the civil suits are settled. $60 million will be pocket change in comparison to what will likely bankrupt the University.

LokiMeister
07-23-2012, 11:54 AM
There's nothing wrong with the CURRENT culture at PSU, is there? Show me.

What WAS wrong is not necessarily what IS wrong. If there's a new sheriff in town (admin) and new deputies (coaches, AD, etc) What would be wrong with the current culture?

Anyone who knew the crime was being committed and did nothing but help Sandusky continue his sickness might as well be driving the get away car for a bank robber. The admin and even the beloved paterno gave sandusky continued access to the facilities at PSU. They should all be criminally charged and punished.

Look at the statements that both the NCAA and PSU made today. They need to CHANGE the culture. They didn't say the culture has been changed. They said it needs to be changed. I cannot show you anything about the culture at PSU as I am not there. Are you? Prove to me that the culture has already changed. Changing people doesn't necessarily mean something is changed for good.

ARay11
07-23-2012, 12:33 PM
currently reading the Freeh report. This is interesting stuff. The real problems within PSU have nothing to do with football.

glaring issue ---
The Senior Vice President of Finance and Business of PSU is the direct head of the University Police Department and controls all investigations. So, any crime which could potentially affect PSU financially can be either quietly or altogether squashed by the finance dept head. WOW.

Still reading. I'm sure there is more to learn.

shawninthesticks
07-23-2012, 12:44 PM
currently reading the Freeh report. This is interesting stuff. The real problems within PSU have nothing to do with football.

glaring issue ---
The Senior Vice President of Finance and Business of PSU is the direct head of the University Police Department and controls all investigations. So, any crime which could potentially affect PSU financially can be either quietly or altogether squashed by the finance dept head. WOW.

Still reading. I'm sure there is more to learn.

So he's guilty also! Sounds like the towns people need to gather pitch forks a short pieces of rope.

LokiMeister
07-23-2012, 01:05 PM
Whitlock usually gets it right and did this time also. http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/penn-state-punishment-ncaa-does-the-right-thing-joe-paterno-jerry-sandusky-072312

ARay11
07-23-2012, 02:19 PM
www.freehreportonpsu.com

3 janitors and several coaches and administrators witnessed on multiple occassions Sandusky's crimes. None of them reported it. The ones that did say something... said it to their direct supervisors who also did nothing. Anyone who did nothing should be jailed.

When INDIVIDUALS begin to take a stand regardless of consequence (the janitors were afraid of being fired), then and only then will things like this not ever happen again.

The NCAA is doing what they think is best. They are punishing the institution because that's the only recourse they have. They do not have the power to punish any individual. I understand their position, and pray the $60 million dollar endowment will be a blessing to those who need it.

For those thinking $60m is a lot of money, I thought so too until reading that the PSU budget is over $4billion annually.

LokiMeister
07-23-2012, 02:25 PM
www.freehreportonpsu.com

3 janitors and several coaches and administrators witnessed on multiple occassions Sandusky's crimes. None of them reported it. The ones that did say something... said it to their direct supervisors who also did nothing. Anyone who did nothing should be jailed.

When INDIVIDUALS begin to take a stand regardless of consequence (the janitors were afraid of being fired), then and only then will things like this not ever happen again.

The NCAA is doing what they think is best. They are punishing the institution because that's the only recourse they have. They do not have the power to punish any individual. I understand their position, and pray the $60 million dollar endowment will be a blessing to those who need it.

For those thinking $60m is a lot of money, I thought so too until reading that the PSU budget is over $4billion annually.

But that is the whole point. The culture needs to be changed so that a report of crime or NCAA violation is not covered up or not reported in the first place because of reprisals like loss of job, etc. That has been my stance the whole time. Thank you for proving my stance.

The $60Mill is one years profit from the football program.

ARay11
07-23-2012, 02:33 PM
But that is the whole point. The culture needs to be changed so that a report of crime or NCAA violation is not covered up or not reported in the first place because of reprisals like loss of job, etc. That has been my stance the whole time. Thank you for proving my stance.

The $60Mill is one years profit from the football program.

Why do you think the sanctions against PSU will change things? really?? C'mon. You know better.

They didnt report because they were worried about THEMSELVES. What will be different next time?

LokiMeister
07-23-2012, 02:51 PM
Why do you think the sanctions against PSU will change things? really?? C'mon. You know better.

They didnt report because they were worried about THEMSELVES. What will be different next time?


Yeah think?

If the NCAA does nothing, they are complicit in the violations just like Paterno and the rest of the University. The NCAA's job is to monitor and guide and punish if necessary. They have done this. The punishment fits the crime, although I would have liked to have seen the death penalty, but the punishment is probably NOT a deterrent to some people. They just learn how to cover things up. In the act of a burglary, the thief doesn't think about the penalty if he kills the landowner, just that he needs to kill the landowner because the landowner made him. Dead people cannot speak.

You know the line, if this prevents just one...

M&K's Retrievers
07-23-2012, 02:52 PM
So you would do nothing about the pervasive, systemic, football first, culture at Penn State? So you let the mentality continue, unchecked? Wow. I think this is the least they should have done. I bet you more people are guilty than we think in this mentality around the USA. This "might" send a message to them, I doubt it.

The football first mentality at PSU goes from the President through the Head Coach all the way down to the janitors. The message is, don't do ANYTHING to harm the football program, or don't do anything we might have to cover up later. By doing nothing this is what you are saying.



YOU can chose to not watch college football.

And you are naive enough to believe that this only exists at PS? Division I football is big business everywhere. Punishing PS for off the field non football related crimes is not going to change it. I guess you subscribe to killing the wounded on the battlefield rather than trying to heal them. Punishing those who had no involvement, no control over or knowledge of these events is not going to fix a problem. I still suggest you have a bee in your bonnet about PS.

M&K's Retrievers
07-23-2012, 02:59 PM
What about the innocent boys that were harmed by Sandusky because of the culture of the football program at Penn State? If the powers that be would have done something, ALL of those boys would have better lives. Now they have shame and embarrassment in their psyche. Sure, Sandusky is getting what's his, but he could have been stopped and wasn't. To do nothing would be terrible.

Your confusing this with the actions of a pervert and the inaction/coverup of a defrocked egomaniac idol of a coach and a few administrators all of whom with the exception of the dead guy should be dining with Sandusky for the rest of their lives.

LokiMeister
07-23-2012, 03:01 PM
And you are naive enough to believe that this only exists at PS? Division I football is big business everywhere. Punishing PS for off the field non football related crimes is not going to change it. I guess you subscribe to killing the wounded on the battlefield rather than trying to heal them. Punishing those who had no involvement, no control over or knowledge of these events is not going to fix a problem. I still suggest you have a bee in your bonnet about PS.

Did you see post #81?

LokiMeister
07-23-2012, 03:04 PM
Your confusing this with the actions of a pervert and the inaction/coverup of a defrocked egomaniac idol of a coach and a few administrators all of whom with the exception of the dead guy should be dining with Sandusky for the rest of their lives.

Actually, I think you are the one confused. When the janitor will not say anything because he knows he will get fired, that is the culture of the football program. The law will/should handle the admins.

john fallon
07-23-2012, 03:16 PM
And you are naive enough to believe that this only exists at PS? Division I football is big business everywhere. Punishing PS for off the field non football related crimes is not going to change it. I guess you subscribe to killing the wounded on the battlefield rather than trying to heal them. Punishing those who had no involvement, no control over or knowledge of these events is not going to fix a problem. I still suggest you have a bee in your bonnet about PS.

EXACTLY!!!

The NCAA ruling was one by which the guilty were not significantly affected if affected at all! But those on the periphery,the inocent with no responsibility for the act, (past presant and future students of PSU the future students all other Pa. state funded schools, and the taxpayers of of Pa. just to name a few) on the other hand, were dealt with harshly. Not agood thing.....

john

LokiMeister
07-23-2012, 03:20 PM
EXACTLY!!!

The NCAA ruling was one by which the guilty were not significantly affected if affected at all! But those on the periphery,the inocent with no responsibility for the act, (past presant and future students of PSU the future students all other Pa. state funded schools, and the taxpayers of of Pa. just to name a few) on the other hand, were dealt with harshly. Not agood thing.....

john

As I have said MANY TIMES, what would you do? Would you suggest the NCAA DO NOTHING? Then why even have the NCAA? It would serve no purpose.

M&K's Retrievers
07-23-2012, 03:36 PM
As I have said MANY TIMES, what would you do? Criminally punish those found guilty. Would you suggest the NCAA DO NOTHING? Pretty much. Then why even have the NCAA? Good question. It would serve no purpose.

Not answering for John but my comments are in red, Have fun.

john fallon
07-23-2012, 03:47 PM
As I have said MANY TIMES, what would you do? Would you suggest the NCAA DO NOTHING? Then why even have the NCAA? It would serve no purpose.

That is a good question . What good are they, if this knee jerk reaction is their best effort for equitably punishing those who are guilty.

No, all of the NCAA related violations that they are now accusing PSU of are a systematic part of top rate college football across the board in the NCAA schools Yet the NCAA does normaly pays it little more than lip service .

Here they have failed to recognise what they have authority over and what they do not, and in doing so while imposing sanctions for violations of things which oversee they, they additionaly acted on some things in this matter that were outside their purview.

john

ARay11
07-23-2012, 03:50 PM
This is from the NCAA website:

For 2010-11, the most recent year for which audited numbers are available. NCAA revenue was $845.9 million, most of which came from the rights agreement with Turner/CBS Sports.
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/finances/revenue

If you think PSU is big biz... check out the ol' NCAA. Change the culture???

LokiMeister
07-23-2012, 04:02 PM
Not answering for John but my comments are in red, Have fun.

The NCAA has no legal authority to punish criminally.

LokiMeister
07-23-2012, 04:06 PM
Actually, if you guys really want to know, it has been shown that the NCAA has no jurisdiction whatsoever over the schools. I cannot find the report that I read last year, but it basically said that the schools agreed to let the NCAA issue punishments on the basis of a unifying authority.

ARay11
07-23-2012, 04:10 PM
[QUOTE=LokiMeister;991338]Yeah think?

If the NCAA does nothing, they are complicit in the violations just like Paterno and the rest of the University. Huh? Sorry, I do not see the parallels. The NCAA would not be covering anything up unless they learned of the crimes and did not report it TO THE POLICE. The NCAA's job is to monitor and guide and punish if necessary. They have done this. The punishment fits the crime, although I would have liked to have seen the death penalty, but the punishment is probably NOT a deterrent to some people. They just learn how to cover things up. In the act of a burglary, the thief doesn't think about the penalty if he kills the landowner, just that he needs to kill the landowner because the landowner made him. Dead people cannot speak.

You know the line, if this prevents just one..

The punishment does not fit the crime because they are not punishing the criminals

ARay11
07-23-2012, 04:13 PM
Actually, if you guys really want to know, it has been shown that the NCAA has no jurisdiction whatsoever over the schools. I cannot find the report that I read last year, but it basically said that the schools agreed to let the NCAA issue punishments on the basis of a unifying authority.


http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/enforcement/index.html

LokiMeister
07-23-2012, 04:30 PM
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/enforcement/index.html

What's this?

LokiMeister
07-23-2012, 04:30 PM
The punishment does not fit the crime because they are not punishing the criminals[/QUOTE]

OMG...

ARay11
07-23-2012, 04:55 PM
[QUOTE=LokiMeister;991382]What's this?

411


OMG...

I know ... I know... you think they did the right thing. I think they did the only thing within their power. Tough to punish an entire university consisting of 25 campuses and thousands of students, teachers, administrators, and alumni for the callous actions of a few bad men. The NCAA has the power to affect every classroom within any D-1 university.

mngundog
07-23-2012, 04:58 PM
The problem is the NCAA has been punishing schools for the actions of students and coaches for as long as I can remember. They came down hard on USC for the actions of players and coaches that have moved on, now Penn State comes in with a case that is 100x worse than what USC did, and now they were suppose to bury their head in the sand? The NCAA was not in position to do a complete 180 in this case or they would have looked just as corrupt as Penn State.

ARay11
07-23-2012, 05:13 PM
The problem is the NCAA has been punishing schools for the actions of students and coaches for as long as I can remember. They came down hard on USC for the actions of players and coaches that have moved on, now Penn State comes in with a case that is 100x worse than what USC did, and now they were suppose to bury their head in the sand? The NCAA was not in position to do a complete 180 in this case or they would have looked just as corrupt as Penn State.
completely agree.
If there ever were a bad time to start doing the right thing, this is probably it. LOL

roseberry
07-23-2012, 05:38 PM
people innocent of crimes should never be subject to criminal punishment.
my reasoning on why i feel psu violated ncaa rules is stated in previous posts.
ncaa sanctions are ALWAYS enforced "after the fact".

i feel the victims deserve every measure of "justice available" to them. they are the true "innocents" in this case. "available justice" could also come on a voluntary rather than enforced basis. imho the university, it's new "innocent" administration, the current players, the current coaches, the student body and the taxpayers of pennsylvania might just benefit from giving football at penn state a rest this fall.

just imagine if you were one of the victims: living with the deception pulled on you and your parents, living with the pain of having been told that no matter what had been done to you no one will believe you, living with the pain of thinking you were finally going to be rescued from the ass rape you are suffering when other adult coaches and janitors walk in only to turn and leave, living with the confusion that for two decades an adult could witness what happened to you as a child and nothing was ever done about it, living with the thought that jerry sandusky was right, i don't matter, nobody would believe me, nobody believed the witnesses who saw it happen to me,..........................

if i were a victim and i rode by the stadium on a cool october afternoon this fall to see the stadium parking lot and the stands voluntarily empty, i might just think, "you know, they were serious! what happened to me really was wrong, and it did matter! this is punishment enough, i am putting this in my past......................na, i am still gonna sue the bastards into bankrupcy!";-)

kevin you got this one right!

john fallon
07-23-2012, 06:48 PM
Lets say for example in another D1 school there was a ''cover up'' of a rape by someone involved in the athletic program...there had been rumors of other sexual misconduct by this very person in the past, there were inquiries by the coaching staff but no action was ever taken.
The person that was raped most recently made a big enough ruckus that the cover up failed. With new hope for justice some of the others came forward...

When the NCAA gets wind of it what should they do ? Does a group of sanctions similar to those given to PSU seem in order ?


If not why not?


john

Marvin S
07-23-2012, 07:42 PM
Lets say for example in another D1 school there was a ''cover up'' of a rape by someone involved in the athletic program...there had been rumors of other sexual misconduct by this very person in the past, there were inquiries by the coaching staff but no action was ever taken.
The person that was raped most recently made a big enough ruckus that the cover up failed. With new hope for justice some of the others came forward...

When the NCAA gets wind of it what should they do ? Does a group of sanctions similar to those given to PSU seem in order ?


If not why not?


john

John - I gather from the tone of your post that you are questioning the magnitude of the punishment - There are those, including myself, who believe it too fail in severity - I personally beleive that along with what the NCAA handed down the death penalty for this year would have been appropriate - :eek:

roseberry
07-23-2012, 08:33 PM
i have been graphic enough in my descriptions of my feelings about what has happened to these men when they were kids. if i chose too, i could imagine and describe another hypothetical situation in which a university actively endorsed and participated in criminal sexual misconduct to which i would feel ncaa sanctions appropriate. but be certain, i would likely feel sanctions in order if a similar example is offered.

john fallon
07-23-2012, 08:35 PM
John - I gather from the tone of your post that you are questioning the magnitude of the punishment - There are those, including myself, who believe it too fail in severity - I personally believe that along with what the NCAA handed down the death penalty for this year would have been appropriate - :eek:


Marvin,

As the father of two PSU alumni and a tax payer in the state of Pa I think that the NCAA has punished us for the affair.

Not only should they not have done so, but they should have limited their involvement and subsequent punishment to the issues involving that and to those for which they have jurisdiction , and then levy it in a manner consistent with their past record.

A case on point is the fact that there are often rapes and sexual assaults on NCAA member campuses by athletes and others in the athletic program that are under investigated (read swept under the rug). And studies show that gang rapes on campus are most often perpetrated by men who participate in intensive male peer groups that foster rape supportive behaviors and attitudes, such as members of intercollegiate athletic teams or fraternities. The NCAA is well aware of this...

As bad as they ALL are , what makes one worse than the other ?

john

dback
07-23-2012, 09:11 PM
You already know the answer to your questions but I'm sure will fail to recognize (or accept) them. The difference is the active participation of an administration at the behest of the football program to cover up the entire affair AND ALLOW IT TO CONTINUE!!!!!!! Yes.....YOU are going to pay. Just wait until the victims are done with YOU. Your anger is misdirected.........you should be screaming at PSU, "How the he!! could you allow this to happen and not report it?" should be your question.

john fallon
07-23-2012, 10:05 PM
You already know the answer to your questions but I'm sure will fail to recognize (or accept) them. The difference is the active participation of an administration at the behest of the football program to cover up the entire affair AND ALLOW IT TO CONTINUE!!!!!!! Yes.....YOU are going to pay. Just wait until the victims are done with YOU. Your anger is misdirected.........you should be screaming at PSU, "How the he!! could you allow this to happen and not report it?" should be your question.

PSU is an inanamit object and, in and of itself, allowed nothing. It is those employees who, I am sure contrary to written policy did allow it, that do bare the brunt of my ire

So you think that myself,my son and daughter along with thousands upon thousands of other people who had nothing to do with it should have to pay ?...

No,Those in the administration who committed crimes should be dealt with both criminally and civilly those who did not should not.

john

dback
07-23-2012, 10:32 PM
No,Those in the administration who committed crimes should be dealt with both criminally and civilly those who did not should not.

john

Not the way it works John and you know it.......If your County Sheriff Office screws up, you pay.....If your municipal Fire Dept screws up, you pay......When a young tank commander in Germany screws up and takes out a rest stop, you pay........When your State University screws up.......


edit: oh yeah......he leveled that "rest stop"

M&K's Retrievers
07-23-2012, 10:43 PM
PSU is an inanamit object and, in and of itself, allowed nothing. It is those employees who, I am sure contrary to written policy did allow it, that do bare the brunt of my ire

So you think that myself,my son and daughter along with thousands upon thousands of other people who had nothing to do with it should have to pay ?...

No,Those in the administration who committed crimes should be dealt with both criminally and civilly those who did not should not.

john

John, you might as well forget it. PSU, the student body, the entire population of PA, the Big 10, the other teams in the Big 10, alumni kids and the guy that lives next door to you are responsible for this crime. They are guilty and should be punished to show the rest of the world how the NCAA handles problems. Give me a break.

This is a very unusual situation that is outside the NCAA's realm of responsibility.

mjh345
07-23-2012, 11:02 PM
You already know the answer to your questions but I'm sure will fail to recognize (or accept) them. The difference is the active participation of an administration at the behest of the football program to cover up the entire affair AND ALLOW IT TO CONTINUE!!!!!!! Yes.....YOU are going to pay. Just wait until the victims are done with YOU. Your anger is misdirected.........you should be screaming at PSU, "How the he!! could you allow this to happen and not report it?" should be your question.

+1
Disgusting story

mngundog
07-23-2012, 11:03 PM
John, you might as well forget it. PSU, the student body, the entire population of PA, the Big 10, the other teams in the Big 10, alumni kids and the guy that lives next door to you are responsible for this crime. They are guilty and should be punished to show the rest of the world how the NCAA handles problems. Give me a break.

This is a very unusual situation that is outside the NCAA's realm of responsibility.
The President, Vice President, Athletic Director, and Head coach were directly involved in the cover-up and yet you see Penn State as an innocent victim in this NCAA conspiracy. Give me a break.

dback
07-23-2012, 11:19 PM
This is a very unusual situation that is outside the NCAA's realm of responsibility.

Actually, "institutional control" & "unfair advantage" are both well within their control as agreed by 120 University Presidents including Penn States'.

RexG
07-23-2012, 11:43 PM
I could not read all the posts on this one. Chris, Having been thru the only NCAA death penalty at SMU (and personally "interviewed" by NCAA investigators), I am truly disappointed in the NCAA and sorry that they chose to penalize the current student atheletes of Penn State for crimes committed, not by student atheletes, but by the administration, over several years. The loss of a year of football revenue will impact all sports, male and female. The student atheletes, especially the female sports like soccer, now become the newest victims of the horrific crimes committed by one coach. These girls were not part of any of this. And yet, the NCAA now penalizes them indirectly.

Stand proud and stand strong -- You Are PENN STATE!

M&K's Retrievers
07-24-2012, 12:00 AM
The President, Vice President, Athletic Director, and Head coach were directly involved in the cover-up and yet you see Penn State as an innocent victim in this NCAA conspiracy. Give me a break.

This is not an NCAA conspiracy. It is the NCAA overstepping it's authority.

Just where exactly do you stop the punishment? The state line? How about the first born sons of PS alumni? How about those freshmen/sophomores who committed to PS who now have 30 days to move to another school? Or the Seniors who probably can't transfer?

You give me a break!

charly_t
07-24-2012, 12:33 AM
This case reminds me of the old rule "punish the entire class if one kid breaks a rule etc."

Oct. 31st a small group of boys push the outdoor toilets over.......punish the whole school. True this is much more complicated but still where does it end.

LokiMeister
07-24-2012, 08:25 AM
This is not an NCAA conspiracy. It is the NCAA overstepping it's authority.

Just where exactly do you stop the punishment? The state line? How about the first born sons of PS alumni? How about those freshmen/sophomores who committed to PS who now have 30 days to move to another school? Or the Seniors who probably can't transfer?

You give me a break!

You will never get it will you?

M&K's Retrievers
07-24-2012, 08:44 AM
You will never get it will you?

Did you just get to work and turn your computer on?

Yes I get it. Hell, even Brent Musburger spoke out against the NCAA's ruling this morning. I can't tell you how much I hate to agree with him.

dback
07-24-2012, 08:46 AM
Just where exactly do you stop the punishment? The state line? How about the first born sons of PS alumni? How about those freshmen/sophomores who committed to PS who now have 30 days to move to another school? Or the Seniors who probably can't transfer?

I have always been a distant admirer of Penn State....both the institution and the athletic programs, especially football. There is no doubt this is "unprecedented" action by the NCAA and I frankly don't know that they haven't ventured into an arena they may later well wish they had avoided. You all might possibly convince me the NCAA is completely misguided in doing so, however, your argument that they are punishing the "innocent" simply doesn't fly. It is the nature of the beast that any NCAA sanctions ALWAYS punish the innocent......rarely (if ever) do sanctions effect only the guilty......they ALWAYS have repercussions beyond the individual program. Unprecedented act/crime.....unprecedented sanctions... I'm sure will have unprecedented repercussions. I'm afraid precedent was set long before any of us were born......no institution is "inanimate" and therefore shielded from responsibility of the actions taken by it's officers/employees.

M&K's Retrievers
07-24-2012, 09:06 AM
I have always been a distant admirer of Penn State....both the institution and the athletic programs, especially football. There is no doubt this is "unprecedented" action by the NCAA and I frankly don't know that they haven't ventured into an arena they may later well wish they had avoided. You all might possibly convince me the NCAA is completely misguided in doing so, however, your argument that they are punishing the "innocent" simply doesn't fly. It is the nature of the beast that any NCAA sanctions ALWAYS punish the innocent......rarely (if ever) do sanctions effect only the guilty......they ALWAYS have repercussions beyond the individual program. Unprecedented act/crime.....unprecedented sanctions... I'm sure will have unprecedented repercussions. I'm afraid precedent was set long before any of us were born......no institution is "inanimate" and therefore shielded from responsibility of the actions taken by it's officers/employees.

That is why as a rule NCAA sanctions are unfair. Oftentimes the guilty parties (coaches and players) have already left the program leaving the innocent to bear the brunt of the punishment. In this instance PS football and egos are the reasons behind the coverup but PS football was not the cause. Joe Pa and a few administrators were the cause. Burn their asses.

LokiMeister
07-24-2012, 09:23 AM
That is why as a rule NCAA sanctions are unfair. Oftentimes the guilty parties (coaches and players) have already left the program leaving the innocent to bear the brunt of the punishment. In this instance PS football and egos are the reasons behind the coverup but PS football was not the cause. Joe Pa and a few administrators were the cause. Burn their asses.

You see, that is why you will NEVER get this. PS football IS the cause. The football first mentality is rampant through the entire university, from the janitor to the president. They will stop at nothing and will allow no one to get in their way to further the football program, even now. When someone fails to do something like report a violation or a crime committed because they need to keep their job, that tells me it is the CULTURE of the football program. I don't expect you to get this because I have said it many times yet it doesn't seem to register in your head.

M&K's Retrievers
07-24-2012, 09:38 AM
You see, that is why you will NEVER get this. PS football IS the cause. The football first mentality is rampant through the entire university, from the janitor to the president. They will stop at nothing and will allow no one to get in their way to further the football program, even now. When someone fails to do something like report a violation or a crime committed because they need to keep their job, that tells me it is the CULTURE of the football program. I don't expect you to get this because I have said it many times yet it doesn't seem to register in your head.

What registers with me is your apparent hatred to all things PS and not caring that the right thing is done. PS football in NOT the cause. The people in charge were the cause.

LokiMeister
07-24-2012, 09:52 AM
What registers with me is your apparent hatred to all things PS and not caring that the right thing is done. PS football in NOT the cause. The people in charge were the cause.

OMG, how obtuse. If all of this would have happened at my aluma mater, the University of Minnesota, I would be saying the same thing. The AD and the VP will get their day in court on their perjury charges and failure to report child abuse. Paterno might be the lucky one.

john fallon
07-24-2012, 10:02 AM
You see, that is why you will NEVER get this. PS football IS the cause. The football first mentality is rampant through the entire university, from the janitor to the president. They will stop at nothing and will allow no one to get in their way to further the football program, even now. When someone fails to do something like report a violation or a crime committed because they need to keep their job, that tells me it is the CULTURE of the football program. I don't expect you to get this because I have said it many times yet it doesn't seem to register in your head.

Name 1 DI school where football is not the tail wagging the dog . That fact does make the student players culpable for the actions of their head coach the athletic director or the school president.

In any event, the allegations of a suspected crime were reported to the DA's Office and the District Attorney concluded , AS IS HIS JOB to do, that there was insufficient evidence....

At that point what are you suggesting should have been done by lets say the team co-captains ? the strong safety ? perhaps the water boy ? to dissuade the DA's office from his decision of not persuing the case?

The inaction's of the DA's office tied the hands of ALL but the guilty few from any action short of a lynch mob.

john

LokiMeister
07-24-2012, 10:06 AM
Name 1 DI school where football is not the tail wagging the dog . That fact does make the student players culpable for the actions of their head coach the athletic director or the school president.

In any event, the allegations of a suspected crime were reported to the DA's Office and the District Attorney concluded , AS IS HIS JOB to do, that there was insufficient evidence....

At that point what are you suggesting should have been done by lets say the team co-captains ? the strong safety ? perhaps the water boy ? to dissuade the DA's office from his decision of not persuing the case?

The inaction's of the DA's office tied the hands of ALL but the guilty few from any action short of a lynch mob.

john

This is contrary to anything I have heard in this case...are you talking about the 1998 incident?

ARay11
07-24-2012, 10:15 AM
This is contrary to anything I have heard in this case...are you talking about the 1998 incident?

read the Freeh report.

www.freehreportonpsu.com

LokiMeister
07-24-2012, 10:22 AM
This is contrary to anything I have heard in this case...are you talking about the 1998 incident?

What crime are you talking about????

LokiMeister
07-24-2012, 10:42 AM
Name 1 DI school where football is not the tail wagging the dog . That fact does make the student players culpable for the actions of their head coach the athletic director or the school president.

In any event, the allegations of a suspected crime were reported to the DA's Office and the District Attorney concluded , AS IS HIS JOB to do, that there was insufficient evidence....

At that point what are you suggesting should have been done by lets say the team co-captains ? the strong safety ? perhaps the water boy ? to dissuade the DA's office from his decision of not persuing the case?

The inaction's of the DA's office tied the hands of ALL but the guilty few from any action short of a lynch mob.

john

OMG, you guys are talking about the 1998 incident where the police chief didn't find any evidence of assault. Then WHY IS SANDUSKY IN JAIL?

I wouldn't be surprised that the Police Chief was "on the take."

Mike Tome
07-24-2012, 11:26 AM
LokiMeister, I'm going to admit up front to not having read all 13 pages of this thread and just jumping in on the last couple of pages. If you have not read the Freeh report IN ITS ENTIRETY... not just the executive summary, you will find that the police, AD's office, and child welfare folks ALL FOUND THAT THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF CRIMINAL ACTIVITY on the part of Sandusky in 1998. THAT is where the ball was dropped the first time.

Before you continue to cast stones on Penn State and Penn State football, again take the time to read the entire Freeh Report. Even though it is fraught with errors and judgmental statements, it does provide a good timeline for the activities of Sandusky and the instances where others could have done more even before Mike McQueary witnessed him in the shower with the young boy. I doubt that many that are spouting out how bad the culture at Penn State is have read the entire report to understand that a few individuals are at fault and that the culture of the university is not. Penn State football players have among the highest graduation rates in the country. Academics IS important. The Football team participates in all kinds of philanthropic activities, including the "Lift for Life" where football players annually raise in excess of $100,000 to help fund kidney cancer research. Penn State students run "THON", the largest student run philanthropic organization that last year raised $10.4 million dollars for research and family support for children with pediatric cancer.

The "Culture" at Penn State is not all about football. Penn State has a highly ranked academic program and many departments are leaders in their fields.There is much, much more to the "culture" at Penn State than football. The NCAA sanctions are only punishing those that are at Penn State now. How fair is that? Numerous individuals who were critical of Penn State for the Sandusky incident have stated that the NCAA overstepped their authority. Is criminal activity on university campuses now the purview of the NCAA? How about that student that was stuck up in the film tower at Notre Dame and was killed when it blew over? Did they need the film that bad? How about the woman who was raped by a Notre Dame football player and committed suicide? How about Syracuse and their own child rape issue? The NCAA has now set a precedence for some very controversial rulings at any number of universities.

Franco
07-24-2012, 12:18 PM
After reading this entire thread and reading everything on the ESPN site, I'm going to play Judge Judy!;)

PSU Ruling;

PSU to be finded $60,000,000.00 and Football Probation for two years. No sense in punishing the innocent.

For those involved in the coverup; may the criminal justice system throw you in jail for life! And, all assets including those of the direct Paterno family be subject to Civil suits.

I also order that Paterno statue be reerected with a slight modification. That one hand be placed over his eyes and the other over his mouth!

charly_t
07-24-2012, 12:55 PM
.............................................. PS football in NOT the cause. The people in charge were the cause.

Ditto ! People in charge caused that culture. They had power and did not use it as they should have.

ARay11
07-24-2012, 01:45 PM
1.--As I read the Freeh report, the only "police" to perform an investigation in 1998 or 2001 was the PSU Campus Police. I suspect that had an actual investigation been done by the DA or AG, things might have gone differently. The Department of Welfare was notified, however, that dept receives significant aid from Second Mile, so they weren't exactly un biased.


2.--If this same exact situation arose within any other corporation with a $4.7Billion annual operating budget, would any of their associations be able to fine them? Tell them who they can recruit for hire?

Real Police would be called. Investigations run. People would go to jail, others would be fired. Civil suits would be filed, and paid.

Some think it's different because the "culture" of football made people keep their mouths shut?
I say the "culture" of American unemployment and American selfishness made people keep their mouths shut.

Think it was covered up because of football? Could be covered up by any company to avoid embarrassment and/or for revenue protection.

3.--Whether they deep down agree with it or not, given what the NCAA provides, I am sure PSU would rather accept an unjust punishment than not be associated with the NCAA.

mngundog
07-24-2012, 01:50 PM
LokiMeister, I'm going to admit up front to not having read all 13 pages of this thread and just jumping in on the last couple of pages. If you have not read the Freeh report IN ITS ENTIRETY... not just the executive summary, you will find that the police, AD's office, and child welfare folks ALL FOUND THAT THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF CRIMINAL ACTIVITY on the part of Sandusky in 1998. THAT is where the ball was dropped the first time.

Before you continue to cast stones on Penn State and Penn State football, again take the time to read the entire Freeh Report. Even though it is fraught with errors and judgmental statements, it does provide a good timeline for the activities of Sandusky and the instances where others could have done more even before Mike McQueary witnessed him in the shower with the young boy. I doubt that many that are spouting out how bad the culture at Penn State is have read the entire report to understand that a few individuals are at fault and that the culture of the university is not. Penn State football players have among the highest graduation rates in the country. Academics IS important. The Football team participates in all kinds of philanthropic activities, including the "Lift for Life" where football players annually raise in excess of $100,000 to help fund kidney cancer research. Penn State students run "THON", the largest student run philanthropic organization that last year raised $10.4 million dollars for research and family support for children with pediatric cancer.

You should read the reports from Vicky Triponey, Penn State's former standards and conduct officer it will shed some light on how the football players were untouchable, I think that may have just a little to do with the graduation rate among the football team. This conduct was also noted in the Freeh report. Its was pretty easy to graduate from Penn State if you were on the football program, and it in pretty unfair to rank a corrupt team like that against other schools that run their system above board. Penn State is not alone in these regards The U of M here is MN ran a similar program when Clem Haskins ran the basketball program.

dback
07-24-2012, 01:57 PM
LokiMeister, I'm going to admit up front to not having read all 13 pages of this thread and just jumping in on the last couple of pages. If you have not read the Freeh report IN ITS ENTIRETY... not just the executive summary, you will find that the police, AD's office, and child welfare folks ALL FOUND THAT THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF CRIMINAL ACTIVITY on the part of Sandusky in 1998. THAT is where the ball was dropped the first time.

Before you continue to cast stones on Penn State and Penn State football, again take the time to read the entire Freeh Report. Even though it is fraught with errors and judgmental statements, it does provide a good timeline for the activities of Sandusky and the instances where others could have done more even before Mike McQueary witnessed him in the shower with the young boy. I doubt that many that are spouting out how bad the culture at Penn State is have read the entire report to understand that a few individuals are at fault and that the culture of the university is not. Penn State football players have among the highest graduation rates in the country. Academics IS important. The Football team participates in all kinds of philanthropic activities, including the "Lift for Life" where football players annually raise in excess of $100,000 to help fund kidney cancer research. Penn State students run "THON", the largest student run philanthropic organization that last year raised $10.4 million dollars for research and family support for children with pediatric cancer.

Mike......great post. This is one of the very unfortunate things of this entire incident. In the eyes of many, Penn State will forever be tarnished by the actions of a few when the University as a whole is a very commendable institution.


The "Culture" at Penn State is not all about football. Penn State has a highly ranked academic program and many departments are leaders in their fields.There is much, much more to the "culture" at Penn State than football. The NCAA sanctions are only punishing those that are at Penn State now. How fair is that? Numerous individuals who were critical of Penn State for the Sandusky incident have stated that the NCAA overstepped their authority. Is criminal activity on university campuses now the purview of the NCAA? How about that student that was stuck up in the film tower at Notre Dame and was killed when it blew over? Did they need the film that bad? How about the woman who was raped by a Notre Dame football player and committed suicide? How about Syracuse and their own child rape issue? The NCAA has now set a precedence for some very controversial rulings at any number of universities.

This will be the scary part....the first criminal act by anyone associated with any program nationwide will foster calls for sanctions regardless of the situation. I have yet to form a firm opinion on the appropriateness of the sanctions but I do believe the NCAA had the authority to impose them...whether they will regret having done so at a future date will be for historians to determine. Bret Musburger is a moron.....suggesting there was absolutely no gain on the field of play is laughable. If there was nothing to gain......why cover it up?


I also order that Paterno statue be reerected with a slight modification. That one hand be placed over his eyes and the other over his mouth!

You had me scared there for a moment Franco :-) :-)

Mike Tome
07-25-2012, 12:04 PM
You should read the reports from Vicky Triponey, Penn State's former standards and conduct officer it will shed some light on how the football players were untouchable, I think that may have just a little to do with the graduation rate among the football team. This conduct was also noted in the Freeh report.
I've read them... and more. I'm not sure what this has to do with the graduation rate... and to the discipline that the football program placed on players that had conduct issues. There are many instances where players not only faced disciplinary action from Paterno, but from the university as well.


Its was pretty easy to graduate from Penn State if you were on the football program, and it in pretty unfair to rank a corrupt team like that against other schools that run their system above board. Penn State is not alone in these regards The U of M here is MN ran a similar program when Clem Haskins ran the basketball program.
I appreciate your opinion, but if you don't have any experience with this you shouldn't make such blatant statements. Penn State football players, or any other Penn State athletes do not get a free walk. Do you think that the football team would keep a highly recruited quarterback ineligible because of grades if they didn't think academics are important? Many a player sat or was ineligible because of grade problems.

LokiMeister
07-25-2012, 12:17 PM
Mike, I am surprised that you know so much about this. The Freeh report is "fraught with errors" and "if you don't have any experience with this you shouldn't make such blatant statements." Are you on the PSU staff or something?

mngundog
07-25-2012, 03:08 PM
I appreciate your opinion, but if you don't have any experience with this you shouldn't make such blatant statements. Penn State football players, or any other Penn State athletes do not get a free walk. Do you think that the football team would keep a highly recruited quarterback ineligible because of grades if they didn't think academics are important? Many a player sat or was ineligible because of grade problems.
According to the former standards and conduct coordinator the football players did get a free walk on most issues, according to the Freeh report the football program was above reproach in the opinion of some of the employees. According to the Freeh report the College President, Vice President, Athetic Director and Head Coach were corrupt. Given the facts that all the reports coming out of Penn State point to a football program that was above reproach I don't believe it is a stretch to say that the graduation rate and the "Academics are important" (among football players) are above question. A few years ago I would have said Vicky Triphony's story sounded like it MAY have been a fabrication made up by a disgruntled employee, after the recent evidence she seems pretty credible and the things she had to say about Penn States culture are pretty disturbing for an institution that seemed above board. As for the ineligible qb situation are you saying that in resent memory they benched a star QB for grades, or are you talking Jones who after three years is going to be the back-up, huge difference if its the latter.

john fallon
07-25-2012, 03:36 PM
According to the former standards and conduct coordinator the football players did get a free walk on most issues, according to the Freeh report the football program was above reproach in the opinion of some of the employees. According to the Freeh report the College President, Vice President, Athetic Director and Head Coach were corrupt. Given the facts that all the reports coming out of Penn State point to a football program that was above reproach I don't believe it is a stretch to say that the graduation rate and the "Academics are important" are above question. A few years ago I would have said Vicky Triphony's story sounded like it MAY have been a fabrication made up by a disgruntled employee, after the recent evidence she seems pretty credible and the things she had to say about Penn States culture are pretty disturbing for an institution that seemed above board. As for the ineligible qb situation are you saying that in resent memory they benched a star QB for grades, or are you talking Jones who after three years is going to be the back-up, huge difference if its the latter.

I have no doubt that to some extent this is the case. The question for those sitting in judgement is, is this an annomoly through out D1 schools. If it is in fact the status quo, (read normal behavior at most schools with big time football and basketball programs), it should only be considered in that context, and not be held up as being an abborition.

john

mngundog
07-25-2012, 03:59 PM
I have no doubt that to some extent this is the case. The question for those sitting in judgement is, is this an annomoly through out D1 schools. If it is in fact the status quo, (read normal behavior at most schools with big time football and basketball programs), it should only be considered in that context, and not be held up as being an abborition.

john

John, I believe that among the top 20 football/basketball programs in the country that some of this is closer to the status quo, however as they get caught I believe they should punished for their actions. I believe that Penn States crimes rise far above what other schools have done. I would not be surprised at all about grades, payouts among boosters or small violations being overlooked by elite athletic programs, I always that Penn State was one of the good guys among these schools.

john fallon
07-26-2012, 01:44 PM
Some aspects of this matter must remain at the forefront, so at the risk of sounding redundant....


There are two separate things going on here .

One involves crimes. These are a criminal and or civil matter and as such, come under the purview of the appropriate governmental law enforcement agency and the courts.

The other involves infractions which are covered by and are under the auspices of the NCAA.

It seems that the NCAA can't grasp where the line in the sand dividing the two is located.

john

M&K's Retrievers
07-26-2012, 02:38 PM
Some aspects of this matter must remain at the forefront, so at the risk of sounding redundant....


There are two separate things going on here .

One involves crimes. These are a criminal and or civil matter and as such, come under the purview of the appropriate governmental law enforcement agency and the courts.

The other involves infractions which are covered by and are under the auspices of the NCAA.

It seems that the NCAA can't grasp where the line in the sand dividing the two is located.

john

Amen......

Down East Labs 217
07-26-2012, 03:56 PM
Mike, I am surprised that you know so much about this. The Freeh report is "fraught with errors" and "if you don't have any experience with this you shouldn't make such blatant statements." Are you on the PSU staff or something?

I have to ask after watching your statements from the beginning of this thread. Are you the self imposed bring PSU down sheriff? It seems so.

My opinion

Richard

mngundog
07-26-2012, 03:58 PM
Some aspects of this matter must remain at the forefront, so at the risk of sounding redundant....


There are two separate things going on here .

One involves crimes. These are a criminal and or civil matter and as such, come under the purview of the appropriate governmental law enforcement agency and the courts.

The other involves infractions which are covered by and are under the auspices of the NCAA.

It seems that the NCAA can't grasp where the line in the sand dividing the two is located.

john

Should the Colleges themselves head the same advice the the NCAA does in your argument? Should a student (athlete or not) be subject to a college suspension for laws violated unrelated to a school function, such as a off campus rape? Just speaking of laws violated that will be handled by a appropriate governmental agency, it seems like colleges have been overstepping there bounds everyday for this.

LokiMeister
07-26-2012, 04:12 PM
I have to ask after watching your statements from the beginning of this thread. Are you the self imposed bring PSU down sheriff? It seems so.

My opinion

Richard

Just like a lot of other people out there.

john fallon
07-26-2012, 04:26 PM
Should the Colleges themselves head the same advice the the NCAA does in your argument? Should a student (athlete or not) be subject to a college suspension for laws violated unrelated to a school function, such as a off campus rape? Just speaking of laws violated that will be handled by a appropriate governmental agency, it seems like colleges have been overstepping there bounds everyday for this.

Putting the appropriateness of these actions by colleges aside for a moment , should any action based on the criminal matters in the cover up have been taken until the appropriate body, which is the courts, had heard the evidence and found them guilty .

BTW speaking of hearings and evidence, the NCAA held no hearings, but relied on third party hearsay as the cornerstone for their actions:(, so, even if a case could be made for their jurisdiction over certain aspects of the universities action's in the matter , in their rush to judgement they took some unpresidented steps.

john

mngundog
07-26-2012, 04:47 PM
Putting the appropriateness of these actions by colleges aside for a moment , should any action based on the criminal matters in the cover up have been taken until the appropriate body, which is the courts, had heard the evidence and found them guilty .

BTW speaking of hearings and evidence, the NCAA held no hearings, but relied on third party hearsay as the cornerstone for their actions:(, so, even if a case could be made for their jurisdiction over certain aspects of the universities action's in the matter , in their rush to judgement they took some unpresidented steps.

john

John I was in law enforcement for a number of years, whether individuals went to trial had a lot of due with whether or not a DA "thought" they could get a conviction not if the person was believed guilty. It is very frustrating when both the police and DA know a person is guilty but the DA refuses to prosecute because he is only 80% sure he can get a conviction, and has aspirations of becoming a judge or politician. We had lots of people walk because the DA didn't want to lose a case. So to answer your question, law enforcement should not be the deciding factor if action should be taken by another body.

john fallon
07-26-2012, 05:17 PM
John I was in law enforcement for a number of years, whether individuals went to trial had a lot of due with whether or not a DA "thought" they could get a conviction not if the person was believed guilty. It is very frustrating when both the police and DA know a person is guilty but the DA refuses to prosecute because he is only 80% sure he can get a conviction, and has aspirations of becoming a judge or politician. We had lots of people walk because the DA didn't want to lose a case. So to answer your question, law enforcement should not be the deciding factor if action should be taken by another body.

That does not hold water here...These guys are going to trial.

Back to your analogy...One word used to describe a punitive action taken outside the judicial system to punish the " guilty " by those not having the authority to do so is vigilante , No mater the virtue of the motive, a criminal practice in and of itself, frowned on by most.

No, If they can't proved it to the criteria necessary in a criminal court, there still is the civil court...But in no case is this kind of third party intervention the answer


john

LokiMeister
07-26-2012, 05:42 PM
Putting the appropriateness of these actions by colleges aside for a moment , should any action based on the criminal matters in the cover up have been taken until the appropriate body, which is the courts, had heard the evidence and found them guilty .

BTW speaking of hearings and evidence, the NCAA held no hearings, but relied on third party hearsay as the cornerstone for their actions:(, so, even if a case could be made for their jurisdiction over certain aspects of the universities action's in the matter , in their rush to judgement they took some unpresidented steps.

john

Heresay? You're joking!! PSU offered up their own evidence with the Freeh report which they paid for. What you been smokin'?

Mike Tome
07-26-2012, 08:07 PM
Yes, Penn State cooperated on the Freeh Report, however, he did not interview several key individuals (Curley, Shultz, McQueary) and did not i nterview Spanier until 4 days before the final report was released. Even the Freeh group released a two page errata page after the "final" report was released. Additionally, key aspects of investigations were not research adequately. Here's a summary of "problems" with the Freeh Report (http://www.ps4rs.org/docs/press-release_07-26-12%20questions1.pdf) . And as John says, this "independent" report was full of speculation and personal opinion. How would you like to be tried by a lawyer that offers only his opinion on your alleged activity and does not have the proof to back it up?

Yes, horrible, criminal acts occurred. But they should be dealt with in a court of law... not the NCAA making up rules as they go along. IF they are going to penalize Penn State for criminal acts, then they should penalize other schools also.

I'm have absolutely no convictions that I'm changing anyone's mind on this. I just wish people would actually do some research on what is fact and what is speculation in this case, and what still remains to be uncovered. A lot of people are just basing their opinions on what the mainstream press has spouted based on Freeh's opinions in his Executive Summary.

Go ahead and flame away... I've already broken a self-imposed rule of trying to discuss this horrible situation with the haters.

john fallon
07-26-2012, 08:09 PM
Heresay? You're joking!! PSU offered up their own evidence with the Freeh report which they paid for. What you been smokin'?

Antartica White.. only grows 6 weeks a year on the tundra... good $#!t;-)

Do you think that the Freeh report should take the place of a jury trial for those accused in the cover up. Of course not. I'm not even sure that the report itself could be admitted into evidence...the limit of its value in a trial is the fact that Freeh can be called as a witness to anything in it for which he had first hand knowledge subject of course to cross examination. What that could be I would not even hazzard a guess

The same should have held for its use by the the NCAA . In the areas for which they have the authority to do so, they should have conducted their own investigation, had Freeh testify (or not), along with all relevant witnesses, then deliberated their findings, as has been their practice in all but this most recent incident, before reaching a decision and handing down fines and sanctions

BTW here is a little bit about hearsay http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearsay_in_United_States_law

john

M&K's Retrievers
07-26-2012, 08:46 PM
Mike & John, Kevin will get back to you when gets back to work in the morning. :rolleyes:

mngundog
07-26-2012, 10:13 PM
Mike I had read that link and what got me (in their first statement) was how the committee that wrote it believed that the the investigation was only meant to be narrow, and only be about Sandusky, while Penn State clearly spelled out from the beginning that this was a very board investigation with know one being above reproach. A seven year old could have figured out the scope of the investigation but it was clearly lost on this group.

john fallon
07-27-2012, 07:21 AM
Everything has its place, and the Freeh Reports proper place is right beside the Sears catalogue in the outhouse at deer camp!

john

LokiMeister
07-27-2012, 10:28 AM
Mike & John, Kevin will get back to you when gets back to work in the morning. :rolleyes:

That's right. Owning my own business gives me the luxury to answer you guys when I feel like it. I'm not attached to my PC like you are apparently, Mike.

M&K's Retrievers
07-27-2012, 11:20 AM
That's right. Owning my own business gives me the luxury to answer you guys when I feel like it. I'm not attached to my PC like you are apparently, Mike.

And that is usually between 8:30 and 5:00. :p

LokiMeister
07-27-2012, 11:57 AM
And that is usually between 8:30 and 5:00. :p

Don't forget, I am out running the boy between 12:00 and 1:00.

M&K's Retrievers
07-27-2012, 12:17 PM
Don't forget, I am out running the boy between 12:00 and 1:00.

That's one of the differences between WI and TX/OK. If you are running your dogs at 12:00, it had better be midnight.

road kill
07-31-2012, 09:59 AM
OK, I have thought about this to answer 2 people that asked me what I would do.

A lot won't like it because we live in a sports culture and sports mean so much to us.

I would give PSU's football program the death penalty.
It is over.
You had your chance and YOU messed it up, proving you're not to be trusted.
I would allow current players to transfer and maintain eligibilty.

No scholarships ever again.
If you want to start a football program within the NCAA, you may start a D-3 program going forward.
NO SCHOLARSHIPS!!


Next time, do the right thing!

BTW--I would not have the $61 million fine.

john fallon
08-02-2012, 11:24 AM
What should have happened is what is outlined in the link below. PSU should have told the NCAA to "pack sand"! on the matter of their sanctions and went on about the 2012 season.......


http://deadspin.com/5928267/penn-state-could-have-fought-the-ncaa-and-won



john

mngundog
08-02-2012, 11:46 AM
What should have happened is what is outlined in the link below. PSU should have told the NCAA to "pack sand"! on the matter of their sanctions and went on about the 2012 season.......


http://deadspin.com/5928267/penn-state-could-have-fought-the-ncaa-and-won



john
NO what should have happened is Joe Pa and Spanier should have went to the police and stopped a rapist instead of allowing the Penn State Campus to be a playground for a child molester. Instead they protected the football team, a fact that the Penn State students can't figure out.

LokiMeister
08-02-2012, 11:54 AM
NO what should have happened is Joe Pa and Spanier should have went to the police and stopped a rapist instead of allowing the Penn State Campus to be a playground for a child molester. Instead they protected the football team, a fact that the Penn State students can't figure out.

There's your winner...but McQuery should be added as he witnessed the crime in the first place.

john fallon
08-02-2012, 12:20 PM
NO what should have happened is Joe Pa and Spanier should have went to the police and stopped a rapist instead of allowing the Penn State Campus to be a playground for a child molester. Instead they protected the football team, a fact that the Penn State students can't figure out.


Perhaps you are new to this thread where everyone concurs that "Joe Pa and Spanier should have went(sic) to the police" , and that they among others who did not, should face the full brunt and might of the law, for the laws that they broke by not doing so.

It is the NCAA , while stepping in in its limited capacity, overstepping the scope of their authority as is described in the linked artical that is being addressed by my post.

john

mngundog
08-02-2012, 12:33 PM
Perhaps you are new to this thread where everyone concurs that "Joe Pa and Spanier should have went(sic) to the police" , and that they among others who did not, should face the full brunt and might of the law, for the laws that they broke by not doing so.

It is the NCAA , while stepping in in its limited capacity, overstepping the scope of their authority as is described in the linked article that is being addressed by my post.

john

If the NCAA had over stepped there scope, Penn State would have sued and won. I believe the Penn State lawyers had a different legal opinion than the guys in the link you posted. I'm glad that Penn State and the NCAA could come to an agreement.

john fallon
08-02-2012, 01:09 PM
If the NCAA had over stepped there scope, Penn State would have sued and won. I believe the Penn State lawyers had a different legal opinion than the guys in the link you posted. I'm glad that Penn State and the NCAA could come to an agreement.

I disagree, the guys in the link are among the top sports antitrust lawyers in the country....you read what they said; Penn State's president, Rodney Erickson's deal with Mark Emmert of the NCAA on the other hand, which btw was done without the PSU board of trustees approval, shows no signs of a well thought out legal strategy......

john

LokiMeister
08-02-2012, 01:52 PM
I disagree, the guys in the link are among the top sports antitrust lawyers in the country....you read what they said; Penn State's president, Rodney Erickson's deal with Mark Emmert of the NCAA on the other hand, which btw was done without the PSU board of trustees approval, shows no signs of a well thought out legal strategy......

john

Doesn't your article point out that the Board later agreed that that was the best course of action?

Gerry Clinchy
08-02-2012, 03:21 PM
I would agree with Stan on this mess. I think the huge monetary penalty only penalizes the taxpayers of PA.

The individuals who have been found to be remiss in their duties to the students and the law, should be penalized as heavily as possible. Spanier just took a Fed job (I believe) ... give me a break! It should be made as clear as possible that no one will be shown mercy for such heinous dereliction of their responsibilities.

The school should not be allowed to participate in the NCAA for an appropriately long time. No football scholarships should be allowed them. Present players should be allowed to transfer to other schools without penalty (6 have this week). PS should pay their costs, if any, for having to do so.

Let them play football, if they so wish, but not so they compete for national titles/recognition.

This will surely disappoint alumni, but perhaps it is a wake-up call to all alums (of any school) that they cannot disregard the character of those individuals who are charged with the care of our youth. And for the administrators of these schools that the money from those alums is NEVER worth reneging on their responsibilities.

john fallon
08-02-2012, 05:49 PM
Doesn't your article point out that the Board later agreed that that was the best course of action?

Kinda;the fact remains that, at the time of the decision, Rodney Erickson was acting unilaterally.

The Board was annoyed that Erickson didn't consult them before agreeing to the punishments....
They a while back meet in a closed door session, surely this was one of the items discussed, and of course the scope of the sanctions.
They said in a statement released afterwards that no vote was required or taken (about anything discussed) "...........But as we understand it, the alternatives were worse, as confirmed by NCAA President Mark Emmert’s recent statement that Penn State was likely facing a multi-year death sentence................"

An acquiescence of sorts I suppose, but perhaps giving in or yealding are a better choice or words.
In the current climate, and after the fact, what viably option did they have.

john




john

Gerry Clinchy
08-02-2012, 09:48 PM
My vet is a PS alum ... actually he played flag football for many years for fund raising for Sandusky's youth charity. He mentioned a couple of interesting points ...

... that Freeh was paid $6 million for his report; and that was paid by the Trustees; and that the goal of the Trustees was not unlikely to have been to make the Trustees get a whitewash, and lay the blame off on someone else (or multiple someone else-es)

... that the 1998 Sandusky incident had been investigated, and was not found to have substance (by the "real" police). Of course, the local police might have been lax on that, but there was no evidence that Paterno was involved in that. Sandusky retired in '99, ostensibly because he knew he would never become head coach.

... Sandusky was not given emeritus status (use of the campus) by Paterno ... it was Smith (?) who did that.

... in the end when McQueary informed Paterno, Paterno reported the incident to the police the very next morning.

... that the $60 million fine will come from tuition revenue. That really is unfair to students who had nothing to do with the offenses; and many future students as well.

Another point he made, which is food for thought ... the two people (Paterno & McQueary) who did the right thing by reporting the offense, are the two who seem to have paid the biggest price for doing so. Others who should be going to jail for covering up are walking away pretty unscathed.

mngundog
08-02-2012, 11:36 PM
My vet is a PS alum ... actually he played flag football for many years for fund raising for Sandusky's youth charity. He mentioned a couple of interesting points ...

... that Freeh was paid $6 million for his report; and that was paid by the Trustees; and that the goal of the Trustees was not unlikely to have been to make the Trustees get a whitewash, and lay the blame off on someone else (or multiple someone else-es)

... that the 1998 Sandusky incident had been investigated, and was not found to have substance (by the "real" police). Of course, the local police might have been lax on that, but there was no evidence that Paterno was involved in that. Sandusky retired in '99, ostensibly because he knew he would never become head coach.

... Sandusky was not given emeritus status (use of the campus) by Paterno ... it was Smith (?) who did that.

... in the end when McQueary informed Paterno, Paterno reported the incident to the police the very next morning.

... that the $60 million fine will come from tuition revenue. That really is unfair to students who had nothing to do with the offenses; and many future students as well.

Another point he made, which is food for thought ... the two people (Paterno & McQueary) who did the right thing by reporting the offense, are the two who seem to have paid the biggest price for doing so. Others who should be going to jail for covering up are walking away pretty unscathed.
Gerry, if you have been following the case this never happened, no one (even Joe Pa) claimed that either one went to the police.

On the point about the $64 million, you have to understand that Penn States operating budget is $4.1 billion and its endowment is valued at $1.7 billion do you honestly believe Penn States only recourse is to raise student tuition?

Pete
08-03-2012, 07:16 AM
Another point he made, which is food for thought ... the two people (Paterno & McQueary) who did the right thing by reporting the offense, are the two who seem to have paid the biggest price for doing so. Others who should be going to jail for covering up are walking away pretty unscathed

Gerry
You would make a great judge. Always fair and unemotional. Good eye.
Pete

Gerry Clinchy
08-03-2012, 08:08 AM
Gerry, if you have been following the case this never happened, no one (even Joe Pa) claimed that either one went to the police.

I apologize. You are correct. They each reported to their "up-line". And the up-line, should have taken action. (I didn't follow the case very closely, but I do remember that sequence.)

It could be argued that even Paterno and McQueary did not go far enough, yet they do appear to be the only ones that who even tried to do the right thing.

He did also mention something about all of these people Penn State having something in their employment contracts about reporting things upline before calling in police.


On the point about the $64 million, you have to understand that Penn States operating budget is $4.1 billion and its endowment is valued at $1.7 billion do you honestly believe Penn States only recourse is to raise student tuition?

He indicated that PS is limited in where the $ to pay the fine can come from.

I was also somewhat mistaken about PS's funding. According to him, only about 7% of the PS budget comes from the taxpayers. (I don't know if he is correct on that.) The rest comes from tuition and donations.

I think he is correct in thinking that this scandal will deter at least some prospective students from attending PS, and any increase in tuition will impact further; and that donations are also bound to be impacted negatively.

I did not go to PS. I have no particular reason to favor them. Since I live in PA, though, I come into contact with a lot of PS alums. No question the majority of alums are passionate about their alma mater. In fact, local news reports that PS keeps building new buildings when they already have buildings that are not being used. It would appear that at least some of their donations (and endowment) have strings attached that dictate how the funds can be used.

I would also disagree with one thing he said ... that is that Corbett didn't pursue Sandusky when he was PA DA, but was looking to get himself headlines as Gov. (as a member of the BOD of PS) with this scandal. Local news would indicate that is not exactly correct. Corbett had never dropped the Sandusky investigation; and a member of the PA DOJ noted that Corbett continued to ask about progress in the investigation. As Gov. he could not be given details of the investigation any longer; but he had not forgotten about it. Corbett was a force, due to his BOD position, to making the firings happen.
(FWIW, it seems Corbett is doing a respectable job as Gov WRT to fiscal responsibility, and he favors school choice and privatization of the liquor stores. He doesn't get the kind of headlines that Christie gets, but seems to be making progress. Coming to the gov-ship from being a DA, like Christie, Corbett's position on gun control is similar; something I do not agree with.)

LokiMeister
08-03-2012, 08:31 AM
Kinda;the fact remains that, at the time of the decision, Rodney Erickson was acting unilaterally.

The Board was annoyed that Erickson didn't consult them before agreeing to the punishments....
They a while back meet in a closed door session, surely this was one of the items discussed, and of course the scope of the sanctions.
They said in a statement released afterwards that no vote was required or taken (about anything discussed) "...........But as we understand it, the alternatives were worse, as confirmed by NCAA President Mark Emmert’s recent statement that Penn State was likely facing a multi-year death sentence................"

An acquiescence of sorts I suppose, but perhaps giving in or yealding are a better choice or words.
In the current climate, and after the fact, what viably option did they have.

john




john

Kinda? I would say definitely. From your link: "Erickson's decision vexed some trustees. They were annoyed that he didn't consult them before agreeing to the punishments, so they met Wednesday night to smooth things over, and concluded that Erickson had had no choice but to accept the punishment."

john fallon
08-03-2012, 02:30 PM
Kinda? I would say definitely. From your link: "Erickson's decision vexed some trustees. They were annoyed that he didn't consult them before agreeing to the punishments, so they met Wednesday night to smooth things over, and concluded that Erickson had had no choice but to accept the punishment."

I saw that but have no idea of its validity; when they strayed from the fact that the Board did have a meeting and concluded that was to "smooth things over":confused:

Here is an excerpt from the Board of trustees statement after the meeting "...........But as we understand it, the alternatives were worse, as confirmed by NCAA President Mark Emmert’s recent statement that Penn State was likely facing a multi-year death sentence................"
YOU call it what you want, but to me it appears to be nothing but an acquiescence, done after the fact, in an attempt to save face. After all, they had recently fired Erikson's predecessor for keeping them in the dark:rolleyes:




john

LokiMeister
08-03-2012, 02:39 PM
I saw that but have no idea of its validity; when they strayed from the fact that the Board did have a meeting and concluded that was to "smooth things over":confused:

Here is an excerpt from the Board of trustees statement after the meeting "...........But as we understand it, the alternatives were worse, as confirmed by NCAA President Mark Emmert’s recent statement that Penn State was likely facing a multi-year death sentence................"
YOU call it what you want, but to me it appears to be nothing but an acquiescence, done after the fact, in an attempt to save face. After all, they had recently fired Erikson's predecessor for keeping them in the dark:rolleyes:




john

You really live in a fantasy world don't you? Making excuses for everything. Don't you think it's time to move on? What's done is done.

john fallon
08-03-2012, 03:39 PM
You really live in a fantasy world don't you? Making excuses for everything. Don't you think it's time to move on? What's done is done.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?86812-Penn-State&p=987905&viewfull=1#post987905


Let me remind you that it was you that started this thread and have posted on it 46 times. In your OP you called for the NCAA to overstep it's authority , It has done so.

So , in light of the fact that I have a differing view, which in 46 tries you have not rebuted , NO I don't think that It time for me to move on.

john

mngundog
08-03-2012, 09:59 PM
I apologize. You are correct. They each reported to their "up-line". And the up-line, should have taken action. (I didn't follow the case very closely, but I do remember that sequence.)

It could be argued that even Paterno and McQueary did not go far enough, yet they do appear to be the only ones that who even tried to do the right thing.

He did also mention something about all of these people Penn State having something in their employment contracts about reporting things upline before calling in police.
Gerry, Penn state paid a team headed by a former director of the FBI to investigate the matter, they paid the team $7 million dollars and gave them full access to employees, files, emails etc., the results said the Paterno was part of the cover-up. He didn't simply report it to the President he conspired with him, the vice president and the AD to keep it silent. Its all in the Freeh report.

Gerry Clinchy
08-04-2012, 09:20 AM
Gerry, Penn state paid a team headed by a former director of the FBI to investigate the matter, they paid the team $7 million dollars and gave them full access to employees, files, emails etc., the results said the Paterno was part of the cover-up.

The contractual aspect would have impacted the behaviors prior to the scandal erupting v. the time when the Trustees were hoping to save their behinds.

He didn't simply report it to the President he conspired with him, the vice president and the AD to keep it silent. Its all in the Freeh report.

Actually, I respect Freeh. I read his book, which covered the period when he was director of FBI under Clinton. He does seem to be the kind of person who would try to maintain accuracy in his investigation.

One continues to stand out in my mind: Paterno had made it common knowledge back as early as 1998 that Sandusky would not become head coach. They worked together, but evidently were not "close" friends. I find it hard to believe that Paterno would actively protect Sandusky (though that is a subjective, intuitive reaction).

The missing link is that Paterno is in no position to defend himself in any way. Although I have no connection to either PS or Paterno, and have no skin in this game, I still find an element of unfairness in that. I continue to wonder if those who are around could have some interest in protecting themselves and PS. Easier to find a fall guy who can't contradict them.

charly_t
08-04-2012, 02:14 PM
.................................................. .....................................
The missing link is that Paterno is in no position to defend himself in any way. Although I have no connection to either PS or Paterno, and have no skin in this game, I still find an element of unfairness in that. I continue to wonder if those who are around could have some interest in protecting themselves and PS. Easier to find a fall guy who can't contradict them.

Ditto ! Good points.

Mike Tome
08-05-2012, 06:49 PM
Gerry, Penn state paid a team headed by a former director of the FBI to investigate the matter, they paid the team $7 million dollars and gave them full access to employees, files, emails etc., the results said the Paterno was part of the cover-up. He didn't simply report it to the President he conspired with him, the vice president and the AD to keep it silent. Its all in the Freeh report.
Tell me exactly where you read that in the Freeh report. This is the issue...people are presuming that things like that are fact and that simply is not true.

LokiMeister
08-06-2012, 09:04 AM
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?86812-Penn-State&p=987905&viewfull=1#post987905


Let me remind you that it was you that started this thread and have posted on it 46 times. In your OP you called for the NCAA to overstep it's authority , It has done so.

So , in light of the fact that I have a differing view, which in 46 tries you have not rebuted , NO I don't think that It time for me to move on.

john

Overstepped their authority? Just do what is right. Eliminate a program to change the culture. You live in Pennsylvania with rose colored glasses. Apparently, PSU can do no wrong.

You actually counted my posts? Do you always do that when someone disagrees with you?

M&K's Retrievers
08-06-2012, 09:16 AM
Ahh. Monday morning and Kevin is back at work. :razz:

LokiMeister
08-06-2012, 09:24 AM
Yeah, sure, you bettcha.

Can't you add anything meaningful to the discussion? :p

john fallon
08-06-2012, 12:06 PM
Overstepped their authority? Just do what is right. Eliminate a program to change the culture. You live in Pennsylvania with rose colored glasses. Apparently, PSU can do no wrong.

You actually counted my posts? Do you always do that when someone disagrees with you?

I counted nothing. Right click on the number of replies on the thread and get a list that gives you that information
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=86812
Which BTW is twice that of anyone else posting on the thread being more than the second and third place posters combined...just sayin'.

Yes, they overstepped their authority, and if that weren't bad enough, while doing so they circumvented due process.

Had they had the authority to issue football related sanctions in a criminal matter, which they do not, at a minimum they should have held their own hearings on the matters.


john

LokiMeister
08-06-2012, 01:21 PM
John, you will never get it.

ARay11
08-06-2012, 01:55 PM
[QUOTE=john fallon;995619]I counted nothing. Right click on the number of replies on the thread and get a list that gives you that information
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=86812
Which BTW is twice that of anyone else posting on the thread being more than the second and third place posters combined...just sayin'.

Yes, they overstepped their authority, and if that weren't bad enough, while doing so they circumvented due process.

Had they had the authority to issue football related sanctions in a criminal matter, which they do not, at a minimum they should have held their own hearings on the matters.

if you're gonna hand out punishment, you should at least find out for yourself the facts of a case.
then again, PSU "agreed to the findings" in the Freeh Report.

conspiracy theory:
PSU paid for the Freeh Report in order to control what went in it.
In doing so, they offered up the AD, Prez, and Paterno as sac lambs. All packaged nice n neat to keep the BOD out of the line of fire. PSU then accepted the findings (cuz they did the finding and the hiding). The NCAA sanctions were accepted to avoid further (uncontrollable) investigations. Once Sandusky is in prison, the NCAA has ruled, and the BOD removed Paterno's statue, the media will quiet down. This should save the Board of Trustees vany further inquisitions and ultimately save their own asses from personal liability in the civil suits.

Mike Tome
08-06-2012, 02:00 PM
What is there "to get" about just asking for due process afforded by American judicial system instead of a blindly following a document in which NONE of the principles involved were interviewed? What person who bothers to read this would not want to be able to have opinions expressed about their behavior verified? I've seen far too many instances when the free press jumps to conclusions based on hearsay only to find out when the facts are exposed that they are totally wrong... I'm sorry to keep using the example of the Duke lacrosse team... but just remember how they were ALL guilty and their team was disbanded only to find out that the accusations against them were totally fabricated.

I by no means am saying that the accusations against Sandusky were fabricated... just sayin' this so my comments are not taken out of context.... but Sandusky had his day in court. Spanier, Curley, Shultz and Parterno have not had the consideration of that process. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? The Freeh report does not PROVE anything....

LokiMeister
08-06-2012, 02:58 PM
I don't need the media. The emails as shown in the Freeh report show they conspired to keep the football program from harm by suppressing the reporting to the police. They acted to prevent putting the football program in a negative light to prevent problems in recruiting, etc. I believe the football program should be punished. They just didn't get punished as much as I think they should have.

I believe there is some truth to ARay's "conspiracy theory," although I wouldn't call it that. I would call it a smart thing to do.

Down East Labs 217
08-06-2012, 03:00 PM
What is there "to get" about just asking for due process afforded by American judicial system instead of a blindly following a document in which NONE of the principles involved were interviewed? What person who bothers to read this would not want to be able to have opinions expressed about their behavior verified? I've seen far too many instances when the free press jumps to conclusions based on hearsay only to find out when the facts are exposed that they are totally wrong... I'm sorry to keep using the example of the Duke lacrosse team... but just remember how they were ALL guilty and their team was disbanded only to find out that the accusations against them were totally fabricated.



I by no means am saying that the accusations against Sandusky were fabricated... just sayin' this so my comments are not taken out of context.... but Sandusky had his day in court. Spanier, Curley, Shultz and Parterno have not had the consideration of that process. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? The Freeh report does not PROVE anything....

This is true but the Penn State Sheriff (LokiMeister) will not relent until he has the last word. Not sure why he thinks he has to have the last word but he does.

My opinion

Richard

john fallon
08-06-2012, 03:22 PM
I don't need the media. The emails as shown in the Freeh report show they conspired to keep the football program from harm by suppressing the reporting to the police. They acted to prevent putting the football program in a negative light to prevent problems in recruiting, etc. I believe the football program should be punished. They just didn't get punished as much as I think they should have.

I believe there is some truth to ARay's "conspiracy theory," although I wouldn't call it that. I would call it a smart thing to do.

These emails you are refering to, are they the two from 1998 and one from 2001?

john

Sue Kiefer
08-06-2012, 07:13 PM
I have read over all posts in this thread.
I am truly amazed at some of the comments. :(
Kevin you are knocking your head against a brickwall dude. Some will never get it.
Sue

john fallon
08-06-2012, 07:43 PM
I have read over all posts in this thread.
I am truly amazed at some of the comments. :(
Kevin you are knocking your head against a brickwall (sic)dude. Some will never get it.Sue

Those words are most often used by someone who, if they ever had any to begin with, has exhausted all of their cogent arguments. But, if this is not the case for you Sue, Please enlighten us .

john

M&K's Retrievers
08-06-2012, 08:35 PM
Yeah, sure, you bettcha.

Can't you add anything meaningful to the discussion? :p

I've already said my piece. No point in beating a dead horse like you do. Penn State got what you wanted. Give it a rest. Surely you have something better to do at work.

Gerry Clinchy
08-06-2012, 10:03 PM
Local paper reported that Spanier is contesting the Freeh report.

Sue Kiefer
08-07-2012, 08:10 AM
Those words are most often used by someone who, if they ever had any to begin with, has exhausted all of their cogent arguments. But, if this is not the case for you Sue, Please enlighten us .

john

WOW really???
As a Mother of a young boy who is involved in sports I do have an opinion .
This isn't a pissing match John simply my opinion.
Sue

john fallon
08-11-2012, 04:02 PM
It ain't over till its over.

A faction within the BOT and others are laying down the ground work for the fedral lawsuit I spoke about earlier in the thread.
http://www.nittanyturkey.com/2012/08/06/four-trustees-appeal-sanctions/

http://www.nittanyturkey.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/PSU_trustee_appeal.pdf

http://www.scribd.com/doc/102297713/20120807132856184
john

mngundog
08-12-2012, 09:01 PM
It ain't over till its over.

A faction within the BOT and others are laying down the ground work for the fedral lawsuit I spoke about earlier in the thread.
http://www.nittanyturkey.com/2012/08/06/four-trustees-appeal-sanctions/

http://www.nittanyturkey.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/PSU_trustee_appeal.pdf

http://www.scribd.com/doc/102297713/20120807132856184
john

I believe the fat lady was singing today.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8263048/penn-state-nittany-lions-board-signals-support-president-rodney-erickson

john fallon
08-12-2012, 10:23 PM
I believe the fat lady was singing today.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8263048/penn-state-nittany-lions-board-signals-support-president-rodney-erickson

I listened to the entire thing live.I did not reach a similar conclusion

Among other things, the acceptance of the Freeh report and the NCAA sanctions must be voted on by the BOT.

NO vote was taken on anything, it was pushed off to to be further discussed a future date ........why do you think that is? They had a quorum.

john

mngundog
08-12-2012, 10:54 PM
I listened to the entire thing live.I did not reach a similar conclusion

Among other things, the acceptance of the Freeh report and the NCAA sanctions must be voted on by the BOT.

NO vote was taken on anything, it was pushed off to to be further discussed a future date ........why do you think that is? They had a quorum.

john
The Executive Committee of the BOTs disagrees with your conclusion. The Penn State Web site states the exact opposite of what you are saying, no vote is needed according to the Executive Committee and the Legal Counsel at Penn State.

john fallon
08-13-2012, 06:36 AM
The Executive Committee of the BOTs disagrees with your conclusion. The Penn State Web site states the exact opposite of what you are saying, no vote is needed according to the Executive Committee and the Legal Counsel at Penn State.

Wrong again/as usual.


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/penn-state-trustees-meet-over-172818813--ncaaf.html

The Penn State Web Site says exactly that! First sentence " Penn State's board of trustees will meet this weekend to consider whether to ratify a consent decree with the NCAA that imposed penalties " They did not vote on whether to ratify said resolution... or not!!!!!! AGAIN, Why not. they had a quorum?

john

mngundog
08-13-2012, 09:20 AM
Wrong again/as usual.


http://sports.yahoo.com/news/penn-state-trustees-meet-over-172818813--ncaaf.html

The Penn State Web Site says exactly that! First sentence " Penn State's board of trustees will meet this weekend to consider whether to ratify a consent decree with the NCAA that imposed penalties " They did not vote on whether to ratify said resolution... or not!!!!!! AGAIN, Why not. they had a quorum?

john

From the Penn State web site:


 President Erickson conferred with the Board of Trustees’ executive committee before accepting the consent decree as a painful―but ultimately better―alternative to a likely multi-year ban on football.
 Given the timing of the NCAA ruling, NCAA-imposed confidentiality restrictions, and the risks of damaging leaks from broader dissemination, it was not practical to convene the full board.
 Executive committee members, after hearing the terms of the consent decree, supported the decision to accept the ruling. A vote was not required and none was taken.

http://progress.psu.edu/assets/content/120803_NCAA_Sanctions_Fact_Sheet_FINAL.pdf
Penn State President conferred with the executive committee and legal counsel BEFORE accepting the terms of the consent decree. You asked the question about why that didn't vote on the decree.... there's you answer according to them, no vote was necessary.

john fallon
08-13-2012, 09:53 AM
From the Penn State web site:



http://progress.psu.edu/assets/content/120803_NCAA_Sanctions_Fact_Sheet_FINAL.pdf
Penn State President conferred with the executive committee and legal counsel BEFORE accepting the terms of the consent decree. You asked the question about why that didn't vote on the decree.... there's you answer according to them, no vote was necessary.

Sounds like semantics to me... How did the Executive Committee even know that they had a concensus without a some kind of "vote"?

They have now come full circle and will vote on accepting the decree (or not),at( in accordance with the sunshine law,) a scheduled meeting sometime in the future.

john

mngundog
08-13-2012, 10:01 AM
Sounds like semantics to me... How did the Executive Committee even know that they had a concensus without a some kind of "vote"?

They have now come full circle and will vote on accepting the decree (or not),at( in accordance with the sunshine law,) a scheduled meeting sometime in the future.

john

Vote away...Again.... The Executive Committee and Legal Team already decided once that they accepted the decree (and decided no vote was necessary), why not vote to quite the rest of the crowd.

LokiMeister
08-13-2012, 10:16 AM
According to the Wisconsin State Journal, they couldn't vote because 10 days notice of the vote wasn't made.

john fallon
08-22-2012, 09:39 PM
Lawers for Penn States ex-president blast the Freeh report.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-rt-usa-pennstate-update-1l2e8jmabx-20120822,0,7952855.story

john

LokiMeister
08-23-2012, 08:11 AM
Of course the lawyers are going to blast the report, that's their job. I don't consider the whole of defense lawyers the most trustworthy and honest of people.

What's done is done. The only thing the NCAA did wrong is not give them the death penalty.

M&K's Retrievers
08-23-2012, 09:27 AM
Of course the lawyers are going to blast the report, that's their job. I don't consider the whole of defense lawyers the most trustworthy and honest of people.

What's done is done. The only thing the NCAA did wrong is not give them the death penalty.


I'm with you. In fact I think we should burn the campus down to the ground and reascend all previously issued diplomas.

LokiMeister
08-23-2012, 09:37 AM
I'm with you. In fact I think we should burn the campus down to the ground and reascend all previously issued diplomas.

Yeah, sure, you bettcha!! After all, when has a Penn State alum EVER contributed to the well being of society? :p

BonMallari
08-23-2012, 11:38 AM
Of course the lawyers are going to blast the report, that's their job. I don't consider the whole of defense lawyers the most trustworthy and honest of people.

What's done is done. The only thing the NCAA did wrong is not give them the death penalty.


Hopefully you will never actually need one in your lifetime to defend you from a malicious or frivolous charge

LokiMeister
08-23-2012, 12:00 PM
Hopefully you will never actually need one in your lifetime to defend you from a malicious or frivolous charge

That's not a defense attorney. A defense attorney in my book is one you hire to defend against a crime you actually committed and are lying through your teeth.

BonMallari
08-23-2012, 12:10 PM
That's not a defense attorney. A defense attorney in my book is one you hire to defend against a crime you actually committed and are lying through your teeth.

You do realize our justice system is one where one is presumed innocent UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY

LokiMeister
08-23-2012, 12:17 PM
You do realize our justice system is one where one is presumed innocent UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY

Really? Are you sure? Do you think O.J. is innocent?

BonMallari
08-23-2012, 12:34 PM
Really? Are you sure? Do you think O.J. is innocent?


I was not on the jury....the court of public opinion is different...I do believe in innocent until proven guilty..I also believe that justice doesnt always get served,and sometimes its not fair...sometimes innocent people go to prison, sometimes guilty people go free...but until you can show me where there is a better system than we currently have, then I will accept ours as the law

Daniel J Simoens
08-23-2012, 12:47 PM
That's not a defense attorney. A defense attorney in my book is one you hire to defend against a crime you actually committed and are lying through your teeth.

you should get a patent lawyer then

ARay11
08-23-2012, 01:03 PM
ex-pres lawyers are trying to keep him out of jail and away from civil suits. I doubt they will cover much ground unless they can unveil my conspiracy theory :cool:

M&K's Retrievers
08-24-2012, 12:28 PM
That's not a defense attorney. A defense attorney in my book is one you hire to defend against a crime you actually committed and are lying through your teeth.

You are one bitter individual with a miserable outlook on people and life.

LokiMeister
08-24-2012, 01:36 PM
OMG.

Hey, Mike, have a nice day.

Down East Labs 217
08-24-2012, 02:09 PM
I can't believe this thread is still going. LokiMeister, are you so filled with hatred towards PSU that you need to keep this thread going? Why are you so filled with hatred? Did PSU beat your team to many times or did Joe Pa's winning record really chap your backside with his drab look and his teams lack of flash. The plain uniforms make them look slow but they are truly fast young men.

Just asking Loki, Never saw someone hate something as much as you hate PSU.

My opinion

Richard

LokiMeister
08-24-2012, 03:00 PM
OMG, have you looked at the posts???? I am simply responding to posts directed at me. I haven't initiated a post since Aug. 13.

To answer your question directly, The University of Minnesota has received many a drubbing by Joe Pa, but that is not what is driving this thread for me...it is the disgust, hate is not the proper word or thought, that I have with PSU for allowing Sandusky to do what he did.

M&K's Retrievers
08-24-2012, 11:51 PM
OMG, have you looked at the posts???? I am simply responding to posts directed at me. I haven't initiated a post since Aug. 13.

To answer your question directly, The University of Minnesota has received many a drubbing by Joe Pa, but that is not what is driving this thread for me...it is the disgust, hate is not the proper word or thought, that I have with PSU for allowing Sandusky to do what he did.

yes, we have.

mngundog
08-25-2012, 01:17 AM
I can't believe this thread is still going. LokiMeister, are you so filled with hatred towards PSU that you need to keep this thread going? Why are you so filled with hatred? Did PSU beat your team to many times or did Joe Pa's winning record really chap your backside with his drab look and his teams lack of flash. The plain uniforms make them look slow but they are truly fast young men.

Just asking Loki, Never saw someone hate something as much as you hate PSU.

My opinion

Richard
You sound like a Penn State football booster, its all about the football team and nothing to do with Penn State allowing a child molester to continue raping boys on their campus.

john fallon
08-25-2012, 08:44 AM
You sound like a Penn State football booster, its all about the football team and nothing to do with Penn State allowing a child molester to continue raping boys on their campus.

If what Spanier and his attorneys are saying is not disproved in a court of law( read he is not charged or is found not guilty) then what........

I'll tell you what, both he and Penn State University are found not guility.

HE contends (read he and Penn State, since he the one who was in charge; and it is he that then would have informed the BOT) he was NEVER made aware of any sexual connotations in the actions of Sandosky.
If anyone answering to him did know, contrary to PSU policy they witheld this information from him(read and the University).

It was to the contrary, when mentioned to him, represented to him as HORSEPLAY.

While we are on the subject of sexual assaults on campus... Sexual assaults are the single biggest problem at ALL D1 Universities. What if anything is being done by the NCAA about it .

john

Down East Labs 217
08-25-2012, 02:50 PM
You sound like a Penn State football booster, its all about the football team and nothing to do with Penn State allowing a child molester to continue raping boys on their campus.

PSU did not allow anyone to continue molesting anyone. A break down in the system happened. The guilty parties are being weeded out and taken care of by the legal system. It amazes me that people want to hold the entire university, its staff and students responsible for one or three peoples actions. The hole mess is B.S. When they find the perpetrators guilty, lock them up and throw away the keys but leave the rest of the innocent people alone.

Notice there is no political correctness in this statement. No statement about how I feel for the children. No statement to cover my A$$. That is what is wrong with todays world. People are afraid to talk without inserting a disclaimer. Go back and read how many folks inserted a disclaimer at the end of their statements.

My opinion

Richard

Just for the record I am not a PSU booster or alumnus . I just hate it when people jump on the current band wagon and make all guilty for a few.

M&K's Retrievers
08-25-2012, 05:27 PM
Lokimeister will be back at his desk Monday around 8:30 and tell you what idiots you are. ;-)

john fallon
09-16-2012, 05:59 PM
Hundreds call for Penn State officials to resign

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20120916_Hundreds_call_for_Penn_State_officials_to _resign.html


Where has Lokimeister been anyhow;-)


john

LokiMeister
09-18-2012, 09:16 AM
I have been very busy.

Besides, this ship has sailed...

john fallon
09-27-2013, 05:29 PM
I have been very busy.

Besides, this ship has sailed...


Ya think so?
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/9718004/reduced-sanctions-penn-state-nittany-lions-ncaa-tacit-acknowledgment-originally-overreached


"It would have been simpler to do it right the first time."

Amen,

john

Down East Labs 217
09-28-2013, 04:52 PM
The whole handling of this mess by the NCAA was wrong. Sandusky got his. May he rot in hell. Penn State, however, never got a fair and unbiased investigation from the NCAA to prove they were at fault for anything. The NCAA violated all their rules and standards and now have to back peddle.

This is what happens when people in powerful positions buckle to media pressure, vice doing their jobs correctly.

My opinion

Richard

mngundog
09-28-2013, 05:25 PM
Is this still stemming from the incident where the College president, athletic director, head football coach, etc allowed the repeated rape of children in the locker room and refused to do anything about it because Penn State puts football above the rape of children? If so it is very unfortunate that Penn State didn't receive much of a punishment for the most despicable act that a football program was a willing participant in. This wasn't about paying players this was allowing young boys to be sodomized on campus. Shame on the NCAA for not giving them the death penalty and furthering it by lifting the little sanctions given early, follow the money.

Marvin S
09-28-2013, 05:35 PM
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/20120916_Hundreds_call_for_Penn_State_officials_to _resign.html

john


this ship has sailed...


http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/9718004/reduced-sanctions-penn-state-nittany-lions-ncaa-tacit-acknowledgment-originally-overreached john

John - there are many opinions on the outcome of this incident - those of you closest to the action seem to have one, those who value integrity over all else seem to have another - Penn State's system failed those young boys - if one was part of that system with authority they failed in their, at the least, moral compass.

That some sports writer in a time when the NCAA is a floundering ship the article may seem appropriate, for me it is not, any one who condones child abuse deserves whatever punishment is thrown their way. One could actually feel the hurt in some of the postings on this subject on this forum, it has achieved dead horse status, & most will no longer post. You might try that cultural achievement :).

john fallon
09-28-2013, 05:45 PM
Is this still stemming from the incident where the College president, athletic director, head football coach, etc allowed the repeated rape of children in the locker room and refused to do anything about it because Penn State puts football above the rape of children? If so it is very unfortunate that Penn State didn't receive much of a punishment for the most despicable act that a football program was a willing participant in. This wasn't about paying players this was allowing young boys to be sodomized on campus. Shame on the NCAA for not giving them the death penalty and furthering it by lifting the little sanctions given early, follow the money.


As I said earlier in this thread.......


"Some aspects of this matter must remain at the forefront, so at the risk of sounding redundant....

There are two separate things going on here .

One involves crimes. These are a criminal and or civil matter and as such, come under the purview of the appropriate governmental law enforcement agency and the courts.

The other involves infractions which are covered by and are under the auspices of the NCAA.

It seems that the NCAA can't grasp where the line in the sand dividing the two is located."

............It appears that you cannot either.
john

mngundog
09-28-2013, 05:49 PM
As I said earlier in this thread.......



............It appears that you cannot either.
john
It is sad that you put your college before the rape of children, it is sad the Penn State cared about the football program over the rape of children. It appears you grasp very little.

john fallon
09-28-2013, 06:23 PM
John - there are many opinions on the outcome of this incident - those of you closest to the action seem to have one, those who value integrity over all else seem to have another - Penn State's system failed those young boys - if one was part of that system with authority they failed in their, at the least, moral compass.

That some sports writer in a time when the NCAA is a floundering ship the article may seem appropriate, for me it is not, any one who condones child abuse deserves whatever punishment is thrown their way. One could actually feel the hurt in some of the postings on this subject on this forum, it has achieved dead horse status, & most will no longer post. You might try that cultural achievement :).

Unlike you Marvin, I have a vested interest in Penn State and as such in seeing that only the proper persons, not the thousands of innocent bystanders that were, be punished, and then upon a trial and a conviction, that they be indvidually punished by the proper authorities.

The NCAA's broad brush sanctions for matters which were for the most part outside their purview and belonged to the Commonwelth's courts, hurt me, my family, and thousands of others who had nothing whatsoever to do with these assaults .

So Marvin, my response to your suggestion is, "Don't hold your breath"

john

LokiMeister
09-28-2013, 07:52 PM
It seems that the NCAA wishes Penn State to be powerful again. The NCAA needs Penn State to have a very good if not great football team and so they give them their scholarships back before they are supposed to, why else would they do it? It's too bad that everybody lets the NCAA have all the power they have.

"THEY GOT IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME." They should have received the death penalty.