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Buzz
07-31-2012, 09:25 AM
Did Romney get caught telling the truth, or is he just goofy?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/07/30/romney-praises-health-care-in-israel-where-strong-government-influence-has-driven-down-costs/

Romney praises health care in Israel, where research says ‘strong government influence’ has driven down costs



Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney had some very kind things to say about the Israeli health care system at a fundraiser there Monday. He praised (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/at-fundraiser-in-israel-romney-describes-spiritual-impact-of-visit/2012/07/30/gJQAFXJpJX_story.html?hpid=z4) Israel for spending just 8 percent of its GDP on health care and still remaining a “pretty healthy nation:”


When our health care costs are completely out of control. Do you realize what health care spending is as a percentage of the GDP in Israel? 8 percent. You spend 8 percent of GDP on health care. And you’re a pretty healthy nation. We spend 18 percent of our GDP on health care. 10 percentage points more. That gap, that 10 percent cost, let me compare that with the size of our military. Our military budget is 4 percent. Our gap with Israel is 10 points of GDP. We have to find ways, not just to provide health care to more people, but to find ways to finally manage our health care costs.



Romney’s point about Israel’s success in controlling health care costs is spot on: Its health care system has seen health care costs grow much slower than other industrialized nations.
How it has gotten there, however, may not be to the Republican candidate’s liking: Israel regulates its health care system aggressively, requiring all residents to carry insurance and capping revenue for various parts of the country’s health care system.
Israel created a national health care system in 1995, largely funded through payroll and general tax revenue. The government provides all citizens with health insurance: They get to pick from one of four competing, nonprofit plans. Those insurance plans have to accept all customers—including people with pre-existing conditions—and provide residents with a broad set of government-mandated benefits.
Health insurance does not, however, cover every medical service. Dental and vision care, for example, fall outside of the standard government set of benefits. The majority of Israelis—81 percent —purchase a supplemental health insurance plan to “use the private health care system for services that may not be available in through the public system,” according to apaper by Health Affairs (http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/30/9/1779.abstract?sid=660413d2-97bb-49eb-86a2-30954fedb52d).

road kill
07-31-2012, 09:48 AM
Did Romney get caught telling the truth, or is he just goofy?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/07/30/romney-praises-health-care-in-israel-where-strong-government-influence-has-driven-down-costs/

Romney praises health care in Israel, where research says ‘strong government influence’ has driven down costs
Hey, Buz, obviously you have done extensive research on this.
So am I to understand that this is apples-to-apples to you?

Are you suggesting we follow Israel's lead?
Would that apply in other areas as well????:cool:

Just askin'...........

gmhr1
07-31-2012, 10:23 AM
Romney wants a health care plan just not the same as Obamas. Maybe one we can really afford.

Buzz
07-31-2012, 10:39 AM
Romney wants a health care plan just not the same as Obamas. Maybe one we can really afford.


Where is his plan? Where is the Republican plan? Sell insurance across state lines so it can follow the lead of the credit card companies?

gmhr1
07-31-2012, 10:49 AM
He has a health plan in Ma that everyone I have seen loves, he must be doing something right. I was for Obama when he was first elected I believed we would have hope and change but he bombed he has in in a hole we can not out of and he only wants to put us in deeper. This man destroyed our credit rating. Look at unemployment, housing, no jobs people that have them are quitting because he has made it better to go on welfare than go to work. The defense budget is about to be sliced and Obama is nowhere in sight he's to busy being off on a fund raiser thats because he doesnt care about our defense. He is for letting immigrants stay so he can get their vote he's now for gay marriage so he can get their votes everything he does is for one reason he doesnt want to move out of the WH. If you can really look back over his last term and say we are better now you must have been in a really bad place.

Uncle Bill
07-31-2012, 10:58 AM
For those that think Buzz has insight to this election none of us have seen, please consider where he came from, and who he has backed most of his life. It's not surprising that he sees us conservatives as being racists...that's what he was fed growing up. Why he thinks it will play in a state like Sodak, is dumbfounding.

The following comes from someone I have subscribed to for several years, and find him to be well informed on many issues that concern me. This 'insight' was one of his classics.

UB

USA: The Next Detroit
By Porter Stansberry

One of the most important things to remember about socialism – or coercion of any kind – is it fails eventually because human beings have an innate desire for liberty and a strong need for personal property rights. In fact, the origins of government lie in the need of agricultural communities to protect themselves from violence and theft. So it is particularly ironic that in more recent times, it is government itself that has more frequently played the role of bandit.

When you start taxing people at extreme rates to pay for socialist "benefits," when you start telling them which schools their children must attend, when you start giving jobs away to people based on race instead of ability… you quash human freedom, which bogs down productivity and if continued for long enough leads to social collapse.

I find it perplexing that only 20 years after the collapse of the Berlin Wall, the West continues to implement laws that mimic all of the failed policies of our former "communist" foes. Our current president won the election by promising to "spread the wealth around." But… truth be told… we don't have to look to Eastern Europe or the Soviet Union to find a society destroyed by coercion, socialism, and the overreaching power of the State. We could just look at Detroit…

In 1961, the last Republican mayor of Detroit lost his re-election bid to a young, intelligent Democrat, with the overwhelming support of newly organized black voters. His name was Jerome Cavanagh. The incumbent was widely considered to be corrupt (and later served 10 years in prison for tax evasion). Cavanagh, a white man, pandered to poor underclass black voters.

He marched with Martin Luther King down the streets of Detroit in 1963. (Of course, marching with King was the right thing to do… It's just Cavanagh's motives were political not moral.) He instated aggressive affirmative action policies at City Hall. And most critically, he greatly expanded the role of the government in Detroit, taking advantage of President Lyndon Johnson's "Model Cities Program" – the first great experiment in centralized urban planning.

Mayor Cavanagh was the only elected official to serve on Johnson's task force. And Detroit received widespread acclaim for its leadership in the program, which attempted to turn a nine-square-mile section of the city (with 134,000 inhabitants) into a "model city." More than $400 million was spent trying to turn inner cities into shining new monuments to government planning. In short, the feds and Democratic city mayors were soon telling people where to live, what to build, and what businesses to open or close. In return, the people received cash, training, education, and health care.

The Model Cities program was a disaster for Detroit. But it did accomplish its real goal: The creation of a state-supported, Democratic political power base. The program also resulted in much higher taxes – which were easy to pitch to poor voters who didn't have to pay them. Cavanagh pushed a new income tax through the state legislature and a "commuter tax" on city workers.

Unfortunately, as with all socialist programs, lots of folks simply don't like being told what to do. Lots of folks don't like being plundered by the government. They don't like losing their jobs because of their race.

In Detroit, they didn't like paying new, large taxes to fund a largely black and Democratic political hegemony. And so in 1966, more than 22,000 middle- and upper-class residents moved out of the city.

But what about the poor? As my friend Doug Casey likes to say, in the War on Poverty, the poor lost the most. In July 1967, police attempted to break up a late-night party in the middle of the new "Model City." The scene turned into the worst race riot of the 1960s. The violence killed more than 40 people and left more than 5,000 people homeless. One of the first stores to be looted was the black-owned pharmacy.

The largest black-owned clothing store in the city was also burned to the ground. Cavanagh did nothing to stop the riots, fearing a large police presence would make matters worse. Five days later, Johnson sent in two divisions of paratroopers to put down the insurrection. Over the next 18 months, an additional 140,000 upper- and middle-class residents – almost all of them white – left the city.

And so, you might rightfully ask… after five years of centralized planning, higher taxes, and a fleeing population, what did the government decide to do with its grand experiment, its "Model City"? You'll never guess…

Seeing it had accomplished nothing but failure, the government endeavored to do still more. The Model City program was expanded and enlarged by 1974's Community Development Block Grant Program. Here again, politicians would decide which groups (and even individuals) would receive state funds for various "renewal" schemes. Later, Big Business was brought into the fold. In exchange for various concessions, the Big Three automakers "gave" $488 million to the city for use in still more redevelopment schemes in the mid-1990s.

What happened? Even with all their power and money, centralized planners couldn't succeed with any of their plans. Nearly all of the upper and middle classes left Detroit. The poor fled, too. The Model City area lost 63% of its population and 45% of its housing units from the inception of the program through 1990.

Even today, the crisis continues. At a recent auction of nearly 9,000 seized homes and lots, less than one-fifth of the available properties sold, even with bidding starting at $500. You literally can't give away most of the "Model City" areas today. The properties put up for sale last week represented an area the size of New York's Central Park. Total vacant land in Detroit now occupies an area the size of Boston. Detroit properties in foreclosure have more than tripled since 2007.

Every single mayor of Detroit since 1961 has been a Democrat. Every single mayor of Detroit since 1974 has been black. Detroit has been a major recipient of every major social program since the early 1960s and has received hundreds of billions of dollars in government grants, loans, and programs. We now have a black, Democrat president, who is promising to do to America as a whole what his political mentors have done to Detroit.

Those of you with a Democratic political affiliation may think what I've written above is biased or false. You may think what you like. But there is no way to argue that what the government has done to Detroit is anything but a horrendous crime. You may think what I've written above is merely a political analysis. Perhaps so, but politicians drive macroeconomic policy. And macroeconomic policy determines key financial metrics, like the trade-weighted value of a currency and key interest rates.

The likelihood America will become a giant Detroit is growing – rapidly. Politicians now control the banking sector, most of the manufacturing sector (including autos), a large amount of media, and are threatening to take over health care and the production of electricity (via cap and trade rules). These are the biggest threats to wealth in the history of our country. And these threats are causing the world's most accomplished and wealthy investors to actively short sell the United States – something that is unprecedented in my experience.

Regards,

Porter Stansberry

Buzz
07-31-2012, 11:10 AM
He has a health plan in Ma that everyone I have seen loves, he must be doing something right.

Obamacare is basically Romneycare 2.0.

I was for Obama when he was first elected I believed we would have hope and change but he bombed he has in in a hole we can not out of and he only wants to put us in deeper. This man destroyed our credit rating.

That happened because republicans blocked the debt ceiling increase, plain and simple.

Look at unemployment, housing, no jobs people that have them are quitting because he has made it better to go on welfare than go to work.

Please point me to changes in welfare law that make it preferable to working.


The defense budget is about to be sliced and Obama is nowhere in sight he's to busy being off on a fund raiser thats because he doesnt care about our defense.

This is all part of the agreement that republicans signed on to and voted for as conditions to getting the debt ceiling raised at the 11th hour. Now Romney is trying to sell them as Obama's cuts. Liars all.


He is for letting immigrants stay so he can get their vote he's now for gay marriage so he can get their votes everything he does is for one reason he doesnt want to move out of the WH.

Please show me documented cases of illegals getting to vote. What a red herring. I have registered to vote in 3 different states in my life. I do not know who illegals would get on the voting rolls. You have to register, then you are put on the books in your local precinct. You are listed in a book along with your signature. If you're not in the book, no vote. You have to sign the book and your signature must match. Now there are picture ID's required on top of all that in many states. So tell me how massive voter fraud will take place. Show me cases of illegals getting convicted for voting illegally. republicans just bring this issue up to delegitimize the president and delegitimize our elections. Very patriotic of them... So far as I'm concern they are traitors.


If you can really look back over his last term and say we are better now you must have been in a really bad place.

Yes I am better off now, and I was in a pretty good place to begin with.



But this was supposed to be about Romney's healthcare statement...

Buzz
07-31-2012, 11:12 AM
For those that think Buzz has insight to this election none of us have seen, please consider where he came from, and who he has backed most of his life. It's not surprising that he sees us conservatives as being racists...that's what he was fed growing up. Why he thinks it will play in a state like Sodak, is dumbfounding.

The following comes from someone I have subscribed to for several years, and find him to be well informed on many issues that concern me. This 'insight' was one of his classics.

UB



Nice diversion. Classic right winger. When faced with something uncomfortable, change the subject.

gmhr1
07-31-2012, 11:13 AM
5 African American Pastors have come forward urging people NOT vote for Obama because of his stand on Gay marriage . He thought this was a good move to secure the gay vote now they said this can cost him the election.

Buzz
07-31-2012, 11:42 AM
5 African American Pastors have come forward urging people NOT vote for Obama because of his stand on Gay marriage . He thought this was a good move to secure the gay vote now they said this can cost him the election.


They are free to vote however they wish. However, like UB's post, I am not sure what this has to do with Romney's statement on healthcare.

Franco
07-31-2012, 01:26 PM
Not sure I would trust anything that comes from Porter Stansberry!

http://briandeer.com/vaxgen/stansberry-fraud.htm

Franco
07-31-2012, 01:31 PM
Since the subjected of this thread seems to be evolving like many threads here on POTUS, did anyone see Wolf Blitzer's interview with the Israeli Defense Minister this weekend?

I was shocked when he said that Obama has been the most supportive of Israel's situation and has been the most supportive of all previous U S Presidents in regards to dealing with Iran since Jimmy Carter!

Buzz
07-31-2012, 01:45 PM
Since the subjected of this thread seems to be evolving like many threads here on POTUS, did anyone see Wolf Blitzer's interview with the Israeli Defense Minister this weekend?

I was shocked when he said that Obama has been the most supportive of Israel's situation and has been the most supportive of all previous U S Presidents in regards to dealing with Iran since Jimmy Carter!


There are many things that righties accuse Obama of that are just completely false. And if they say them often enough and loudly enough, the public will believe them. I was planning to bring this up in another thread Franco. You know me, I love to stir the pot...

gmhr1
07-31-2012, 02:08 PM
They are free to vote however they wish. However, like UB's post, I am not sure what this has to do with Romney's statement on healthcare.

Just a tidbit that came out today

road kill
07-31-2012, 02:12 PM
There are many things that righties accuse Obama of that are just completely false. And if they say them often enough and loudly enough, the public will believe them. I was planning to bring this up in another thread Franco. You know me, I love to stir the pot...
There are even more things the progressives give accolades to Obama for that are completely false. And if they say them often enough and loudly enough, the public will believe them.:cool:


You know me Buzz............

Uncle Bill
07-31-2012, 03:13 PM
Not sure I would trust anything that comes from Porter Stansberry!

http://briandeer.com/vaxgen/stansberry-fraud.htm


I'm not sure I would trust anything that Franco and Buzzzzzz find trustworthy.


UB

Uncle Bill
07-31-2012, 03:20 PM
Nice diversion. Classic right winger. When faced with something uncomfortable, change the subject.


I find that amusing that you think I'm faced with 'something uncomfortable'. :rolleyes:

And I totally understand how you can call me a "Classic right winger". Hellsbells, from where your standing with your head in the sand, I might point out, ANYONE opposed to your messiah is WAAAAAAYYY to the right of you.


UB

Franco
07-31-2012, 04:17 PM
I'm not sure I would trust anything that Franco and Buzzzzzz find trustworthy.


UB

Unlike Stansberry, I have never been convicted of Fraud nor do I hawk gold for a living.
;-)

M&K's Retrievers
07-31-2012, 04:42 PM
Unlike Stansberry, I have never been convicted of Fraud nor do I hawk gold for a living.
;-)

No, you just drone on about sec football. About time for your predictions sure to go wrong. :cool:

Franco
07-31-2012, 04:58 PM
No, you just drone on about sec football. About time for your predictions sure to go wrong. :cool:

You mean like last season when I predicted that the SEC would make it six National Championships in a row or my prediction that LSU would win the SEC?

M&K's Retrievers
07-31-2012, 06:08 PM
You mean like last season when I predicted that the SEC would make it six National Championships in a row or my prediction that LSU would win the SEC?

I remember other predictions that didn't fare so well.

BonMallari
07-31-2012, 06:16 PM
I remember other predictions that didn't fare so well.


are you talking about Franco's sports prognostication's or his political ones.....

M&K's Retrievers
07-31-2012, 06:57 PM
are you talking about Franco's sports prognostication's or his political ones.....

Both.........

mngundog
07-31-2012, 09:13 PM
He has a health plan in Ma that everyone I have seen loves, he must be doing something right. I was for Obama when he was first elected I believed we would have hope and change but he bombed he has in in a hole we can not out of and he only wants to put us in deeper. This man destroyed our credit rating. Look at unemployment, housing, no jobs people that have them are quitting because he has made it better to go on welfare than go to work. The defense budget is about to be sliced and Obama is nowhere in sight he's to busy being off on a fund raiser thats because he doesnt care about our defense. He is for letting immigrants stay so he can get their vote he's now for gay marriage so he can get their votes everything he does is for one reason he doesnt want to move out of the WH. If you can really look back over his last term and say we are better now you must have been in a really bad place.
Didn't his heath care plan have an individual mandate? Just asking because it seems like we've spent about a trillion dollars and 2 years saying an individual mandate is unconstitutional and something only a socialist would do.

coachmo
07-31-2012, 09:17 PM
Buzz, you have got to be joking! Accusing conservatives of changing the subject when confronted with something uncomfortable is laughable. The only thing you left wing nuts do is avoid answering questions and throw emotion into the conversation. You can't be serious or are you really that dilusional?

Buzz
07-31-2012, 11:03 PM
Buzz, you have got to be joking! Accusing conservatives of changing the subject when confronted with something uncomfortable is laughable. The only thing you left wing nuts do is avoid answering questions and throw emotion into the conversation. You can't be serious or are you really that dilusional?


I don't know. Go back and tally up the number of conservatives that came back with something totally unrelated to the topic in the OP...

BonMallari
07-31-2012, 11:06 PM
I don't know. Go back and tally up the number of conservatives that came back with something totally unrelated to the topic in the OP...


Buzz considering you are the Master of evading direct questions from many here on POTUS with the same tactics its kind of like the pot and the kettle...dont ya think :razz::razz:

road kill
08-01-2012, 05:28 AM
I don't know. Go back and tally up the number of conservatives that came back with something totally unrelated to the topic in the OP...


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I gave you a direct answer (not that you know what that is).
You ignored it.

Are you equating states rights (MA) and what Israel did with what Obama has foisted on the American people?

You wanna follow Israels lead on a few other issues as well?


Standing by..............

Gerry Clinchy
08-01-2012, 12:06 PM
I think it was probably easier for Israel to institute socialized medicine than it is for the US. Also, easier for MA to do so than it would be for TX, where there is a large problem with illegal immigration.

I noted that the Israeli proposal is four "meat and potatoes" basic plans ... to which the individuals ... 81% ... add their choice of supplemental insurance. Not exactly what's happening in the US.

If you look at the Medicare layout ... it is very similar. If you rely on basic Medicare only, you would not be very happy. Each month you pay for additional coverage through Medicare; then, you will really need supplemental coverage on top of that; and then prescription coverage on top of that.

It all depends on what the basic "required" plans are. And don't forget, with Obamacare, if you happen to be able to afford a top-of-the-line plan (which the govt considers too luxurious) ... they will tax you on that as well.

Seems the govt doesn't want people to be without coverage ... but they also don't want you to be too well insured, even if you can afford it. What's that all about? I guess they figure if you can afford good health care insurance, then you should be able to kick in something extra for "the common good"? Penalty for not having insurance, and penalty for having very good insurance. Does that sort of place you into a pre-conceived box designed by some "elite" bureaucrat?

Uncle Bill
08-01-2012, 01:42 PM
Unlike Stansberry, I have never been convicted of Fraud nor do I hawk gold for a living.
;-)

So am I to assume you DON'T think, just because the information came from Stansberry, that Detroit is a worthwhile example to use when illustrating how America under Obama is following along a similer path?

Furthermore, what makes you believe he was 'convicted'? Is he in leg-irons?...behind bars???

My 'point' was to bring back a reasonable similarity between what happened to Detroit, and the politics that caused it, to what's going on in this nation under the current oligarchy. And worse...what we can expect should this regime get re-elected.

The primary point I brought out was where Buzz comes from, and what his background is for his incredible staunchness and almost blind support for the Democrat party and this current leadership. While one would think that some conservatism should have rubbed off on him when he moved to South Dakota, but then I realize he moved to one of the Democrat hot spots in the state...the home of South Dakota State University. My son graduated from SDSU, and was appalled at that school's politics. I told him it was probably the same in Vermillion, much like it is in Madison, Wisconsin. The teachers unions keep everything liberal/socialistic, and anything conservative is anathama to them.

UB

Buzz
08-01-2012, 02:01 PM
It all depends on what the basic "required" plans are. And don't forget, with Obamacare, if you happen to be able to afford a top-of-the-line plan (which the govt considers too luxurious) ... they will tax you on that as well.

Seems the govt doesn't want people to be without coverage ... but they also don't want you to be too well insured, even if you can afford it. What's that all about? I guess they figure if you can afford good health care insurance, then you should be able to kick in something extra for "the common good"? Penalty for not having insurance, and penalty for having very good insurance. Does that sort of place you into a pre-conceived box designed by some "elite" bureaucrat?

This is not a tax on individuals...


What about “high cost” or “cadillac” health plans? As an employer, will I end up paying more because of a new tax on them?

Beginning in 2018, a new federal excise tax will be assessed on insurance companies for health plans that are extremely expensive (in excess of $10,200 for self-only coverage, $27,500 for families). Between now and then, employers can adapt those plans so that this excise tax will not apply.


Lots of good information to be found at: http://www.healthcare.gov/law/index.html

This was not healthcare reform, it was insurance reform. We will never get meaningful reform from either party because too many special interests involved.

Gerry Clinchy
08-01-2012, 06:52 PM
This is not a tax on individuals...


In the end, isn't it ALWAYS a tax on individuals? If the cadillac plans are "adapted" & if that results in lesser benefits to individuals ... isn't it the individuals who bear the net result of the tax?


This was not healthcare reform, it was insurance reform
Is it actually useful to curtail anyone's coverage ... as long as it is paid for without taxpayer dollars? If someone has an LLC with 3 employees, will they be exempt from such "mandate"?



We will never get meaningful reform from either party because too many special interests involved.
Does this mean that the present 2000+-bill is not meaningful reform either?