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View Full Version : Tax dodger wants in the whitehouse



menmon
08-20-2012, 10:29 AM
I'm asking do you want a tax dodger in the whitehouse? If so, why do you think it is ok for Romney to pay less than half of what you pay in taxes as a percentage of his income? Because he is smarter than you is not a good answer. Who out there has accounts in the Camen Islands and Switzerlland? Oh yea Bermunda?

I'm sure some of you could but dodging tax is hopefully not a major passtime of yours.

road kill
08-20-2012, 10:33 AM
I'm asking do you want a tax dodger in the whitehouse? If so, why do you think it is ok for Romney to pay less than half of what you pay in taxes as a percentage of his income? Because he is smarter than you is not a good answer. Who out there has accounts in the Camen Islands and Switzerlland? Oh yea Bermunda?

I'm sure some of you could but dodging tax is hopefully not a major passtime of yours.
For God's sakes man, get a grip.:cool:


Where the hell is Bermunda????

achiro
08-20-2012, 10:35 AM
More power to anyone that can figure out a legal way to keep more of their own money.

lennie
08-20-2012, 10:47 AM
Answer: Yes

M&K's Retrievers
08-20-2012, 10:56 AM
Sure. He's done nothing illegal. Why do you have a problem with that? Methinks you protest too much.

BonMallari
08-20-2012, 10:59 AM
if the current admin can have a Sec of the Treasury as a tax dodger .....

menmon
08-20-2012, 11:04 AM
See all ya'll complain about the rising debt but then cheer those that don't pay. It's like you want everything but don't want to pay for it. I don't mind paying as long as guys like Romney pay their share. Now don't start arguing that the poor man needs to pay more....lets get rich man to paying first...then if the poor man needs to pay a little more that might be fine.

Raymond Little
08-20-2012, 11:07 AM
See all ya'll complain about the rising debt but then cheer those that don't pay. It's like you want everything but don't want to pay for it. I don't mind paying as long as guys like Romney pay their share. Now don't start arguing that the poor man needs to pay more....lets get rich man to paying first...then if the poor man needs to pay a little more that might be fine.

From now on, please add GDG at the end of your threads.

achiro
08-20-2012, 11:12 AM
See all ya'll complain about the rising debt but then cheer those that don't pay. It's like you want everything but don't want to pay for it. I don't mind paying as long as guys like Romney pay their share. Now don't start arguing that the poor man needs to pay more....lets get rich man to paying first...then if the poor man needs to pay a little more that might be fine.
My argument is that nobody needs to pay more. The idea that the gubment deserves (or needs) more of anyone's money is ludicrous. Cut wasteful spending, then we'll talk.

HPL
08-20-2012, 11:17 AM
As long as he isn't a tax CHEAT I don't really have any problem. I don't have a problem with folks who fight back legally when the government says "Stand and deliver". Don't forget that the American Revolution was to a great extent fought over taxation.

Cody Covey
08-20-2012, 11:37 AM
See all ya'll complain about the rising debt but then cheer those that don't pay. It's like you want everything but don't want to pay for it. I don't mind paying as long as guys like Romney pay their share. Now don't start arguing that the poor man needs to pay more....lets get rich man to paying first...then if the poor man needs to pay a little more that might be fine.

I think you must come here to troll all the conservatives on this board because there is no way you can believe the crap that you spew daily. No one is saying that the poor needs to pay more. You said the rich need to pay first, you do realize that the rich pay the VAST majority of the taxes so how you can sit there and say we need to get them to start paying is beyond me. For the poor to pay MORE they would have to start paying ANY first. Romney pays 15% of his risk based income which was started with money that he was taxed 40%ish on already. How you can sit here and say with a straight face he is a tax dodger and the rich pay no taxes leads me to believe you are nothing more than a troll, although there is one other alternative....

achiro
08-20-2012, 11:40 AM
I think you must come here to troll all the conservatives on this board because there is no way you can believe the crap that you spew daily. No one is saying that the poor needs to pay more. You said the rich need to pay first, you do realize that the rich pay the VAST majority of the taxes so how you can sit there and say we need to get them to start paying is beyond me. For the poor to pay MORE they would have to start paying ANY first. Romney pays 15% of his risk based income which was started with money that he was taxed 40%ish on already. How you can sit here and say with a straight face he is a tax dodger and the rich pay no taxes leads me to believe you are nothing more than a troll, although there is one other alternative....
Ha! My original post said, "you can't be this stupid so you must be a troll" but I thought I'd be a little more productive...today. ;)

Jason Glavich
08-20-2012, 11:43 AM
He may pay less as a percentage, but he still pays way more than I do. He even pays more than GE did a few years ago.

Stop the spending,stop the entitlements,pay less taxes.

And Yes I want hiom over BHO who puts tax cheats into positions all the time, lots of politicians skip paying all together and not just in creative ways.

luvmylabs23139
08-20-2012, 12:04 PM
I have zero problem with someone who follows the tax code unlike turbocheat Tim!

luvmylabs23139
08-20-2012, 12:05 PM
The best place to start is eliminating the check at tax time to those with a negative tax liability!!!

mngundog
08-20-2012, 01:01 PM
The best place to start is eliminating the check at tax time to those with a negative tax liability!!!
What's the problem if those guys are working within the tax code? It seems like we should be praising them.

menmon
08-20-2012, 01:05 PM
Let's throw the elderly out in the streets along with the sick and eflicted so Mr. Romney doesn't have to pay any taxes. For your information, the upper-middle class is who takes it on the chin. They can't do all the things this wantabe can do, so quit giving him a pass.

road kill
08-20-2012, 01:11 PM
Let's throw the elderly out in the streets along with the sick and eflicted so Mr. Romney doesn't have to pay any taxes. For your information, the upper-middle class is who takes it on the chin. They can't do all the things this wantabe can do, so quit giving him a pass.
You are the only person suggesting that.
It is a prevarication.

You are losing it.................

ARay11
08-20-2012, 01:14 PM
I'm asking do you want a tax dodger in the whitehouse? If so, why do you think it is ok for Romney to pay less than half of what you pay in taxes as a percentage of his income? Because he is smarter than you is not a good answer. Who out there has accounts in the Camen Islands and Switzerlland? Oh yea Bermunda?

I'm sure some of you could but dodging tax is hopefully not a major passtime of yours.

You really need to find a different method to attack Rmoney.... c'mon..... there's lots more material out there. Check out Jay Leno tonight... he will probably give you a place to start.

But, taxes are not the place ....

Do we all wish we could have his tax burden (as a matter of percentage) YES!! Do we wish we had his tax burden (in dollars paid) NO!!!! :cool:


You see... this is a guy who is NOT waiting on the tax system to change... he is DOING something to make a better life for thousands of the less fortunate by GIVING OF HIMSELF AND HIS OWN MONEY OF HIS OWN FREE WILL!!!!

Get another topic sambo.... you can't win on this one.

luvmylabs23139
08-20-2012, 01:24 PM
What's the problem if those guys are working within the tax code? It seems like we should be praising them.

It is the first part of the tax code that must be changed! Pure socialism.

Buzz
08-20-2012, 01:28 PM
Sure. He's done nothing illegal. Why do you have a problem with that? Methinks you protest too much.

I get so very tired of this argument.

So, he just happens to follow the tax law as written, he's done nothing illegal.

Do you guys even stop and think that it's guys like him that BUY politicians to write tax laws that suit them? Then you give them credit for just being smart enough to not pay any more than is due them?

Buzz
08-20-2012, 01:29 PM
What's the problem if those guys are working within the tax code? It seems like we should be praising them.


They are not praising them because they are not one of the rich guys buying tax law that suits them.

Its a class warfare thing...

Cody Covey
08-20-2012, 01:30 PM
What's the problem if those guys are working within the tax code? It seems like we should be praising them.
I don't think anyone is saying that they should be thrown in jail or they are doing anything wrong. There is no problem with them. The system where we praise the "leaches" and say the people paying 80%+ of the tax burden aren't paying their fair share needs to change.



Let's throw the elderly out in the streets along with the sick and eflicted so Mr. Romney doesn't have to pay any taxes. For your information, the upper-middle class is who takes it on the chin. They can't do all the things this wantabe can do, so quit giving him a pass.
Again, trolling... The democrats are the ones "throwin the elderly in the streets" as they are the ones gutting over half a trillion from medicare while Republicans like Romney / Ryan are attempting to reform it to make it solvent again.

road kill
08-20-2012, 01:30 PM
I get so very tired of this argument.

So, he just happens to follow the tax law as written, he's done nothing illegal.

Do you guys even stop and think that it's guys like him that BUY politicians to write tax laws that suit them? Then you give them credit for just being smart enough to not pay any more than is due them?
And of course, NONE of the blame goes to the politicians that get bought, right??????:confused:

caryalsobrook
08-20-2012, 01:32 PM
I think you must come here to troll all the conservatives on this board because there is no way you can believe the crap that you spew daily. No one is saying that the poor needs to pay more. You said the rich need to pay first, you do realize that the rich pay the VAST majority of the taxes so how you can sit there and say we need to get them to start paying is beyond me. For the poor to pay MORE they would have to start paying ANY first. Romney pays 15% of his risk based income which was started with money that he was taxed 40%ish on already. How you can sit here and say with a straight face he is a tax dodger and the rich pay no taxes leads me to believe you are nothing more than a troll, although there is one other alternative....

You give him too much credit because I do suspect that he does believe it. As I have said before and not been contradicted, "Gov. is in the business of rules, regulations, taxes, dependence and control. It has NEVER been, nor will it ever be in the business of charity." He would have us all think that Gov. is in the business of charity. That is the fundamental fallicy of liberals.

NatenBarney
08-20-2012, 01:37 PM
I'm asking do you want a tax dodger in the whitehouse? If so, why do you think it is ok for Romney to pay less than half of what you pay in taxes as a percentage of his income? Because he is smarter than you is not a good answer. Who out there has accounts in the Camen Islands and Switzerlland? Oh yea Bermunda?

I'm sure some of you could but dodging tax is hopefully not a major passtime of yours.


Maybe read up a little bit... in 2010 and 2011 Romney paid a higher percentage of his income in taxes and charitable contributions than Obama and Biden combined, which was 42% of his adjusted gross income, which by the way was in the neighborhood of $11.2M Perhaps you would prefer to keep the power grabbing socialist who is taking our money that we bust our asses for and giving it to those who decide not to work. Maybe stealing $700 Billion from Medicare to fund Obamacare doesn't bother you, and I guess his gun grabbing agenda doesn't bother you either? Wake up Sambo

mngundog
08-20-2012, 01:45 PM
I don't think anyone is saying that they should be thrown in jail or they are doing anything wrong. There is no problem with them. The system where we praise the "leaches" and say the people paying 80%+ of the tax burden aren't paying their fair share needs to change.

Why would you call anyone a leach if they are operating within the tax code?

gmhr1
08-20-2012, 02:00 PM
will take Romney/Ryan over B.O. anyday

luvmylabs23139
08-20-2012, 02:04 PM
Anyone who pays zero federal income taxes and then gets a check from the actual federal taxpayers is leaching off of the real taxpayer whether the tax code allows it or not. They are sucking the blood out o the hardworking TAXPAYER!

M&K's Retrievers
08-20-2012, 02:08 PM
For God's sakes man, get a grip.:cool:


Where the hell is Bermunda????

It's the 58th state.

road kill
08-20-2012, 02:12 PM
It is astonishing how these progressives can get sooo worked up about just taking another man's earnings!!

M&K's Retrievers
08-20-2012, 02:16 PM
I get so very tired of this argument.

So, he just happens to follow the tax law as written, he's done nothing illegal.

Do you guys even stop and think that it's guys like him that BUY politicians to write tax laws that suit them? Then you give them credit for just being smart enough to not pay any more than is due them?


They are not praising them because they are not one of the rich guys buying tax law that suits them.

Its a class warfare thing...

"Paranoia runs deep, into your life it will creep..."

Goes around comes around regards, :cool:

menmon
08-20-2012, 02:20 PM
From Romneys mouth he paid 20% with the charitable contributions

mngundog
08-20-2012, 02:33 PM
Anyone who pays zero federal income taxes and then gets a check from the actual federal taxpayers is leaching off of the real taxpayer whether the tax code allows it or not. They are sucking the blood out o the hardworking TAXPAYER!

I seems to me that their has been a lot of praise in this thread for guys working within the tax code, yet some all called leaches and others are called heroes. Its funny if the guy is rich and they find a way to pay very little in taxes they are applauded and if you are lower income your a leach.

road kill
08-20-2012, 02:37 PM
I seems to me that their has been a lot of praise in this thread for guys working within the tax code, yet some all called leaches and others are called heroes. Its funny if the guy is rich and they find a way to pay very little in taxes they are applauded and if you are lower income your a leach.
Here, let me help.......

I think the issue is with people who are multi-generational tax liabilities, having never paid a penny of taxes.

I don't have the VAST financing expertise of say a sambo, but paying almost $3 million in taxes hardly seems a tax liability.

HPL
08-20-2012, 02:46 PM
I seems to me that their has been a lot of praise in this thread for guys working within the tax code, yet some all called leaches and others are called heroes. Its funny if the guy is rich and they find a way to pay very little in taxes they are applauded and if you are lower income your a leach.

No..........If you pay your taxes, provide employment for others, thus allowing them to also pay taxes, risk some of the money you have EARNED by investing in businesses (also providing employment for others who can then pay taxes) and risk some more by helping various communities across our formally great nation (by investing in bonds) and give generously to charity, you may deserve admiration. If you are an able bodied adult and you live off the work of others and TAKE the money paid in by the above or continue to breed offspring that you can't (or won't) care for, you are a leach. That seems pretty simple to me.

menmon
08-20-2012, 03:02 PM
I have not said that $3MM is not a lot of money....but it is unfair to the americans that pay more of a percentage of their income that they need to pay bills. This guy pays only $3MM when he makes $24MM...he is not worry about having money to pay a mortage, put a kid through college and he is using the system to not pay his intended share....that simple...I can't understand why you are good with that.

J Hoggatt
08-20-2012, 03:15 PM
I get so very tired of this argument.

So, he just happens to follow the tax law as written, he's done nothing illegal.

Do you guys even stop and think that it's guys like him that BUY politicians to write tax laws that suit them? Then you give them credit for just being smart enough to not pay any more than is due them?

SAME AS WITH UNIONS!!!!-- YES -I AM SHOUTING!!!!!! -

oh....... you don't want to talk about YOUR Special Interest--- You just want to talk about mine!!!!

luvmylabs23139
08-20-2012, 03:23 PM
I have not said that $3MM is not a lot of money....but it is unfair to the americans that pay more of a percentage of their income that they need to pay bills. This guy pays only $3MM when he makes $24MM...he is not worry about having money to pay a mortage, put a kid through college and he is using the system to not pay his intended share....that simple...I can't understand why you are good with that.



I can't understand why you are ok with the leaches getting a check from the taxpayers at tax time!!!

J Hoggatt
08-20-2012, 03:27 PM
I have not said that $3MM is not a lot of money....but it is unfair to the americans that pay more of a percentage of their income that they need to pay bills. This guy pays only $3MM when he makes $24MM...he is not worry about having money to pay a mortage, put a kid through college and he is using the system to not pay his intended share....that simple...I can't understand why you are good with that.


Almost 50% of the American People - have ZERO Federal Tax Liability - ZERO -(shouting) - How (smart guy) do we give them - who give Zero - A Tax Cut???? Go a head and use your math skills............. waiting................ and still waiting...............

This debate is about spending!!!!! -- get it!!

Using "scare tactics" is a real sign of a weak argument on your part -- - or lack of intellectual ability....OR you are so biased towards the other party you will never see both sides.........

hotel4dogs
08-20-2012, 03:31 PM
not sure who said this originally, but

I care a lot more about how Obama is spending MY money than how Romney is spending his.

Uncle Bill
08-20-2012, 03:36 PM
Almost 50% of the American People - have ZERO Federal Tax Liability - ZERO -(shouting) - How (smart guy) do we give them - who give Zero - A Tax Cut???? Go a head and use your math skills............. waiting................ and still waiting...............

This debate is about spending!!!!! -- get it!!

Using "scare tactics" is a real sign of a weak argument on your part -- - our lack of intellectual ability....OR you are so biased towards the other party you will never see both sides.........


Yo, J. Why are you ignoring your tag line? I just reminded John about that same pitfall. I know...it's hard to stand on the sidelines and listen to the ignoramuses spewing their pathetic stupidity. But it's almost amusing to read some of these comments, and realize they aren't one bit chagrined by what they believe. They indeed ARE the "fools" of this nation.

UB

The danger to America is not Barack Obama, but the citizenry capable of entrusting a man like him with the presidency.

It will be easier to limit and undo the follies of an Obama presidency, than to restore the necessary common sense and good judgment to an electorate willing to have such a man for their president.

The problem is much deeper and far more serious than Mr. Obama, who is a mere symptom of what ails us.

Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince.

The republic can survive a Barack Obama. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those that made him their President.

caryalsobrook
08-20-2012, 03:39 PM
I get so very tired of this argument.

So, he just happens to follow the tax law as written, he's done nothing illegal.

Do you guys even stop and think that it's guys like him that BUY politicians to write tax laws that suit them? Then you give them credit for just being smart enough to not pay any more than is due them?
Buzz, you know there are 70,000 pages of tax code(deductions). You don't believe that ALL OF THEM were bought via pressure, influence, money or votes?? You don't think they were ALL put forth as "FAIR"? Primary home Mortgage interest, child deduction, earned income tax credit, Corporate deduction for health insurance, $3,000,000.00 exemption from estate tax,day care tax credit, mineral depletion allowance, just to name a few. I haven't seen anyone praise the income tax as working, yet few argue to scrap the whole idea of an income tax as fatally flawed.

I would be willing to bet that you could not cut the code to less than 10,000 pages, no matter how hard you tried, even if you had sole responsibility. Even then, it still would be a fatally flawed system.

Each of us has a different situation. You own your own company. I am retired. Some work for an hourly wage, some work on salary. some have a company pension plan. some do not and have to save for their retirement. Nobody can create a tax code for all that is "FAIR" to all. I take tax deductions that many can't. You take tax deductions that many can't. romney takes tax deductions that many can't. Anyone who takes an earned income tax, or a child tax deduction, or day car tax credit or home mortgage deduction are taking a deduction that I can't or don't take. It lowers their tax but I do not criticize them for doing so. I CRITICIZE SUCH A SYSTEM THAT CREATES ENVY, AND ANGER TO THOSE WHO ONLY FOLLOW THE LAW, not them.

I would much prefer a consumption tax with no exemptions, none. Not perfect but far better than the income tax. Easy to understand, encourages savings, discourages children unless you can afford them and are willing to pay for them are just a few things I like about it.

Just as sure as you criticize Romney for following the tax code, there are surely many that would criticize you if they saw your tax returns. That I am sure of.

gmhr1
08-20-2012, 03:57 PM
Romney is lucky enough to have good acountants that can save him some money.... something we all wish we had. Hes not a tax cheat and he's not a liar like BO.

menmon
08-20-2012, 04:06 PM
We need to cut spending...but need to tax more too....getting the top 5% to pay their share along with cuts makes sense...Ryan wants to cut spending a good thing...but wants to cut taxes too. Lets pay some bills and then give ourvelves a raise...make sense?

luvmylabs23139
08-20-2012, 04:12 PM
We need to cut spending...but need to tax more too....getting the top 5% to pay their share along with cuts makes sense...Ryan wants to cut spending a good thing...but wants to cut taxes too. Lets pay some bills and then give ourvelves a raise...make sense?

How about we start with getting rid of refunable tax credits, then move on and get the 50% who pay zero to start coughing up some cash!!!!

menmon
08-20-2012, 04:16 PM
And making the Romney's pay their share too

luvmylabs23139
08-20-2012, 04:22 PM
And making the Romney's pay their share too

He plays millions already!

coachmo
08-20-2012, 04:30 PM
Sambo you can't be that dense!

menmon
08-20-2012, 04:37 PM
He paid 3 and made 24...don't you think it would be better if he paid 8?

luvmylabs23139
08-20-2012, 04:41 PM
He paid 3 and made 24...don't you think it would be better if he paid 8?

NO! The gov't takes enough from him already and they waste it!

As I said before start by eliminating the SOCIALIST giveawys to the leaches!!!
Then get the 50% who pay nothing to cough up some cash!!!

achiro
08-20-2012, 04:42 PM
Please define "fair share". Is that based on a specific amount? Is that based on a percentage that moves up and down depending on income? If someone makes $40,000 and pays $0 is that a "fair share"? If someone makes $500,000 is half of that enough or should we take more? 60%? 70%? Heck why not just take all of it and send back however much you think he deserves to live on.
One more time here, it's not a revenue problem, it's a spending problem.

charly_t
08-20-2012, 05:00 PM
Please define "fair share". Is that based on a specific amount? Is that based on a percentage that moves up and down depending on income? If someone makes $40,000 and pays $0 is that a "fair share"? If someone makes $500,000 is half of that enough or should we take more? 60%? 70%? Heck why not just take all of it and send back however much you think he deserves to live on.
One more time here, it's not a revenue problem, it's a spending problem.

Bingo ! It should be evident to most people by now but those we elected 'ain't' very smart it seems. Had a recent conversation with someone about a rancher who was broke ( big rancher ! ). Couldn't afford to buy any feed for his cows. Had already borrowed money on more cows than he had etc. His family was still taking the family plane to a large city outside of our own state and buying ( on credit of course ) many thousands of dollara worth of things they did not need. Ranch hands were still coming to the store where I worked and buying items and charging them. I have no doubt that some things were needed but my tag line
says it all.

HPL
08-20-2012, 05:16 PM
Romney is lucky enough to have good acountants that can save him some money.... something we all wish we had. Hes not a tax cheat and he's not a liar like BO.

It would be better (and perhaps more accurate) to say that Romney has worked and achieved a position that now allows him to have, and even need, good accounts...................

The way you state it and the way wealthy and poor are frequently referred to as "fortunate" and "unfortunate" only exacerbate class envy by not giving the wealthy credit for the hard work, vision, and wise choices that have allowed many of them to achieve their successes and by not putting any responsibility on the poor for the bad choices, lack of vision, and lack of drive that have landed many of them in their condition.

Buzz
08-20-2012, 05:34 PM
I would much prefer a consumption tax with no exemptions, none. Not perfect but far better than the income tax. Easy to understand, encourages savings, discourages children unless you can afford them and are willing to pay for them are just a few things I like about it.

Just as sure as you criticize Romney for following the tax code, there are surely many that would criticize you if they saw your tax returns. That I am sure of.


I would prefer a consumption tax too. But I would do it with some sort or exemption. For example, I like the fact that we have no income tax in South Dakota. I pay taxes according to the way I choose to live, not according to my income. But I think that food for instance should not be taxed.

I have had accountants do my taxes since the mid '90s. I will take any deduction or credit that they can find for me... So yes, you're most likely correct.

BonMallari
08-20-2012, 05:36 PM
I would prefer a consumption tax too. But I would do it with some sort or exemption. For example, I like the fact that we have no income tax in South Dakota. I pay taxes according to the way I choose to live, not according to my income. But I think that food for instance should not be taxed.

I have had accountants do my taxes since the mid '90s. I will take any deduction or credit that they can find for me... So yes, you're most likely correct.


well how big a guy are you ? and how much can you eat ?....J/k

ARay11
08-20-2012, 05:51 PM
If I make $2000/mo at McDonalds, go to the movies a few times a month and yet cannot pay my rent....I don't need a raise, I need fewer big Macs and a little less fast & furious. My income is not the problem.... my habits are.

Buzz
08-20-2012, 06:05 PM
If I make $2000/mo at McDonalds, go to the movies a few times a month and yet cannot pay my rent....I don't need a raise, I need fewer big Macs and a little less fast & furious. My income is not the problem.... my habits are.


I didn't realize that they made $12.50/hour at McD's.

mngundog
08-20-2012, 06:47 PM
I didn't realize that they made $12.50/hour at McD's.

I believe it's $7 an hour here.

Cody Covey
08-20-2012, 10:03 PM
I would prefer a consumption tax too. But I would do it with some sort or exemption. For example, I like the fact that we have no income tax in South Dakota. I pay taxes according to the way I choose to live, not according to my income. But I think that food for instance should not be taxed.

I have had accountants do my taxes since the mid '90s. I will take any deduction or credit that they can find for me... So yes, you're most likely correct.
Yikes, me and Buzz agree on something. Here in WA we have a no State Income tax but pay a sales tax on everything but food. If we went to this tax system but no special interest deductions then we would be on to something. Then we would just need to get our spending in check and no one could cry that people weren't "paying their fair share" whatever that happens to mean...

ARay11
08-21-2012, 09:04 AM
I didn't realize that they made $12.50/hour at McD's.

My example figure is a manager. :cool:

gmhr1
08-21-2012, 09:32 AM
At least when Romneys in you get rid of the whole rotten administration not jut BO Its a fact that Obamacare brings with it 21 new taxes we dont need any more taxes . People need jobs so they can buy a car, house, food, health insurance, Obama can't produce jobs if he could he would have the last three years unemployment is UP in 44 states . When Bush was in everyone said we need hope and change well he brought no hope and no one has any change left in their pocket. WE need real hope and boy do we need change. I love the Newsweek cover with a mean looking Obama and headlines Hit the road barack.

helencalif
08-21-2012, 10:13 AM
I am guessing that he paid the taxes owed based upon the tax laws. Every tax payer's return is filled out using the current laws. I am more concerned about the thousands who pay nothing and report they have 12 or more kids when they don't. They then get a refund without paying any taxes. I do not know if this is true or not, but one TV station reported that 23,000 tax refund checks were mailed by the IRS to the same address. Apparently the IRS does not have time to pursue instances like this.

huntinman
08-21-2012, 12:35 PM
He paid 3 and made 24...don't you think it would be better if he paid 8?

Sambo... sounds to me like you would support the fair tax. Same percentage from everyone??

Down East Labs 217
08-21-2012, 04:01 PM
Sambo... sounds to me like you would support the fair tax. Same percentage from everyone??
No he wouldn't. He wouldn't be able to complain about the rich that way. He is so far to the left that he will never understand anyone's point of view but his. I believe in helping the poor. But I also believe in the poor helping their selves.

My Opinion

Richard

road kill
08-21-2012, 04:04 PM
No he wouldn't. He wouldn't be able to complain about the rich that way. He is so far to the left that he will never understand anyone's point of view but his. I believe in helping the poor. But I also believe in the poor helping their selves.

My Opinion

Richard
Based on his posts, he doesn't even understand his own point of view!!:cool:

Franco
08-21-2012, 04:42 PM
Sambo, our resident Socialist Banker.

Your understanding of economics is frightening. I may not be a big Romney fan but, I'll bet his business activities has created a lot more wealth for middle America than all the Dem politicians combined.

In regards to Federal Taxes, I don't think any citizen should have to pay any. But, since we have ceded our Liberties to our Federal Government and we do work for our Federal Government, would you have the figures of how much in Federal taxes were paid by those working for Romney's businesses/investments compared to those employed in any of Obama's buisnesses/investments?

J Hoggatt
08-21-2012, 05:07 PM
Sambo, our resident Socialist Banker.

Your understanding of economics is frightening. I may not be a big Romney fan but, I'll bet his business activities has created a lot more wealth for middle America than all the Dem politicians combined.

In regards to Federal Taxes, I don't think any citizen should have to pay any. But, since we have ceded our Liberties to our Federal Government and we do work for our Federal Government, would you have the figures of how much in Federal taxes were paid by those working for Romney's businesses/investments compared to those employed in any of Obama's buisnesses/investments?

I'm not an english major - but won't "Socialist Banker" be considered an "Oxymoron"? or ........... you fill in the blank...................

coachmo
08-21-2012, 06:03 PM
One fallacy that people like sambo fail to acknowledge either through ignorance or misguided ideology is that the democrats tax the wealthy not to give to the poor but rather to give to rich democrats. History doesn't lie, the democrats have done little to better the poor's plight in this country over the last several decades. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Better yet tell me which group of citizens are better off as a result of democrats.

gmhr1
08-21-2012, 06:17 PM
Dick Morris responded when asked what will happen if obama is given a second term,
The most important thing the president will do, according to Morris: “He’s going to transform America into two countries, a small number of people who pay taxes and a large number of people who don’t work and are dependent upon the government to create a permanent leftist socialist base in the United States.”
If that is not cause for alarm, even panic, what is? In the 2008 presidential campaign, candidate Obama promised to fundamentally transform America. Given a second term and especially with a Democratic Congress, he will. Just give him some space.

Ken Bora
08-22-2012, 07:44 AM
Maybe read up a little bit... in 2010 and 2011 Romney paid a higher percentage of his income in taxes and charitable contributions than Obama and Biden combined, which was 42% of his adjusted gross income, which by the way was in the neighborhood of $11.2M Perhaps you would prefer to keep the power grabbing socialist who is taking our money that we bust our asses for and giving it to those who decide not to work. Maybe stealing $700 Billion from Medicare to fund Obamacare doesn't bother you, and I guess his gun grabbing agenda doesn't bother you either? Wake up Sambo

Dang!
Now that is a great first post!
Well Done!
And a warm welcome to the RTF.

gmhr1
08-22-2012, 09:15 AM
Source CBO, OMB, IMF our debt for the last 12 months has Increased 1.3 trillion dollars its up 5.3 trillion since Obama took office. We will be in a recession next year and see unemployment go up to 9.1 if Obama doesnt work his magic We can't stay on Obamas path he doesn't know what he's doing he tried but it didn't work the proof is in the numbers Remember Obama said this is the summer of recovery what happened? Biden just gave a speech saying the middle class is coming back where does he live on Mars.

menmon
08-22-2012, 10:48 AM
A few decades ago...I spewed the same rheteric you guys do to anyone that would listen. I had an education from a conservative school that had made a good republican out of me. My dad had always told me that we were not rich enough to be rebublicans and after college I just thought my dad was out of touch. He died before I realized he was correct in his thinking.

What I have come to realize is that my challenges are not necessarily everyone elses challenges. It is very easy to judge people from one's reference points, too. The woman issues that are being discussed...I have no real understanding of any of it, so if I judged on my knowledge I would get it wrong. My reference of the poors challenges are wrong too, because I have never been poor in the real sense, as their view of me is wrong too because they have never had a lot.

Politics are about getting votes and hitting peoples nerves to engage them either right or wrong. All the issues we try to dumb down and connect with our little worlds can not be simplified like that. I don't like seeing someone get something for nothing at my expense no more than the next guy, but that problem is much bigger than our worlds can imagine. We blame these problems on the system and fault should be there, but we also dangle our good fortune in front of people and they make bad decissions out of envy. The poor person should not be smoking, drinking, using a cell phone when they can't afford food, but they see all of us doing it and want a piece of our world. Yes they should work for it like we did, but many don't know how and have not be given the ethics that we have. Now many benefit from these folks that use these products that they can't afford so do we really want them not living beyond their means.

The housing bubble was cause by folks overextending themselves....noone told them they should buy that house they couldn't afford, but instead showed them how to pull it off, so they could make money from it, either by building it, financing or selling it.

I can keep on with these examples of how our problems have evolved, but the bottom-line is that we all have some ownership in these issues. I'm not advocating a communist approach to this because it does not work, but a pure capitalist approach does not work either. My main point is that there is collateral damage to how we are, looking purly at it from our little worlds is easy, and I don't have the answers nor does any of our politicians, but to ignor a class of peoples problems to get elected and reelected is not the type of elected officials we need. I pick on the rich because they will be ok no matter what, but the poor who really don't like me will not necessaily have the same fate.

road kill
08-22-2012, 10:54 AM
A few decades ago...I spewed the same rheteric you guys do to anyone that would listen. I had an education from a conservative school that had made a good republican out of me. My dad had always told me that we were not rich enough to be rebublicans and after college I just thought my dad was out of touch. He died before I realized he was correct in his thinking.

What I have come to realize is that my challenges are not necessarily everyone elses challenges. It is very easy to judge people from one's reference points, too. The woman issues that are being discussed...I have no real understanding of any of it, so if I judged on my knowledge I would get it wrong. My reference of the poors challenges are wrong too, because I have never been poor in the real sense, as their view of me is wrong too because they have never had a lot.

Politics are about getting votes and hitting peoples nerves to engage them either right or wrong. All the issues we try to dumb down and connect with our little worlds can not be simplified like that. I don't like seeing someone get something for nothing at my expense no more than the next guy, but that problem is much bigger than our worlds can imagine. We blame these problems on the system and fault should be there, but we also dangle our good fortune in front of people and they make bad decissions out of envy. The poor person should not be smoking, drinking, using a cell phone when they can't afford food, but they see all of us doing it and want a piece of our world. Yes they should work for it like we did, but many don't know how and have not be given the ethics that we have. Now many benefit from these folks that use these products that they can't afford so do we really want them not living beyond their means.

The housing bubble was cause by folks overextending themselves....noone told them they should buy that house they couldn't afford, but instead showed them how to pull it off, so they could make money from it, either by building it, financing or selling it.

I can keep on with these examples of how our problems have evolved, but the bottom-line is that we all have some ownership in these issues. I'm not advocating a communist approach to this because it does not work, but a pure capitalist approach does not work either. My main point is that there is collateral damage to how we are, looking purly at it from our little worlds is easy, and I don't have the answers nor does any of our politicians, but to ignor a class of peoples problems to get elected and reelected is not the type of elected officials we need. I pick on the rich because they will be ok no matter what, but the poor who really don't like me will not necessaily have the same fate.
Cut & Paste?
I'm just guessing due to the spelling..........:cool:

menmon
08-22-2012, 10:55 AM
I should do that...you are right

ARay11
08-22-2012, 12:33 PM
A few decades ago...I spewed the same rheteric you guys do to anyone that would listen. I had an education from a conservative school that had made a good republican out of me. My dad had always told me that we were not rich enough to be rebublicans and after college I just thought my dad was out of touch. He died before I realized he was correct in his thinking.

What I have come to realize is that my challenges are not necessarily everyone elses challenges. It is very easy to judge people from one's reference points, too. The woman issues that are being discussed...I have no real understanding of any of it, so if I judged on my knowledge I would get it wrong. My reference of the poors challenges are wrong too, because I have never been poor in the real sense, as their view of me is wrong too because they have never had a lot.

Politics are about getting votes and hitting peoples nerves to engage them either right or wrong. All the issues we try to dumb down and connect with our little worlds can not be simplified like that. I don't like seeing someone get something for nothing at my expense no more than the next guy, but that problem is much bigger than our worlds can imagine. We blame these problems on the system and fault should be there, but we also dangle our good fortune in front of people and they make bad decissions out of envy. The poor person should not be smoking, drinking, using a cell phone when they can't afford food, but they see all of us doing it and want a piece of our world. Yes they should work for it like we did, but many don't know how and have not be given the ethics that we have. Now many benefit from these folks that use these products that they can't afford so do we really want them not living beyond their means.

The housing bubble was cause by folks overextending themselves....noone told them they should buy that house they couldn't afford, but instead showed them how to pull it off, so they could make money from it, either by building it, financing or selling it.

I can keep on with these examples of how our problems have evolved, but the bottom-line is that we all have some ownership in these issues. I'm not advocating a communist approach to this because it does not work, but a pure capitalist approach does not work either. My main point is that there is collateral damage to how we are, looking purly at it from our little worlds is easy, and I don't have the answers nor does any of our politicians, but to ignor a class of peoples problems to get elected and reelected is not the type of elected officials we need. I pick on the rich because they will be ok no matter what, but the poor who really don't like me will not necessaily have the same fate.

Your post reads as though it is my fault that folks who cannot afford a BMW still want one because that's what I drive. Do you really think this way? And it's my fault they want it so badly they will accept a car payment that is beyond their means? And the reason they do this is because they weren't taught any differently so I should shut up and support them?

How in the heck is this all my fault to the point that I should be the one paying for it?

Jason Glavich
08-22-2012, 12:58 PM
Since rich will be ok no matter what. What about the rich guys who lose it all, then become rich again through hard work?

"Going broke has helped me by providing me with opportunities to succeed. What separates successful people from those who aren't is the way you deal with problems. And, as an entrepreneur, there will inevitably be problems. It's the nature of the beast. I do understand that there could be another challenge in front of me, something I accept and embrace. But I do work hard every day to make sure it doesn't happen."

Bill Bartmann http://www.inc.com/magazine/20100901/how-bill-bartmann-lost-it-all-and-got-it-back.html

HPL
08-22-2012, 01:08 PM
Your post reads as though it is my fault that folks who cannot afford a BMW still want one because that's what I drive. Do you really think this way?

Actually, in some ways I think Sambo may have a point there. There is no question that the current culture is really rubbing the poor's noses in the fact that others live MUCH more lavish lives. Just look at all the TV shows about actual high living people. I keep seeing these shows where they are telling you how to renovate your house and people's budgets for a bathroom upgrade is $30,000.00 or $40,000.00 or they are redoing their landscape and it is going to cost $20,000.00 or something like that!! I have never paid more than about $60,000.00 for a house and two of the houses I have purchased came with rent property on the lot too. Did you see the story today about Nike's new $300.00 shoe and the survey that said that although only about 12% of the population in general said that they would be willing to pay that for a pair of sneakers (still too high in my opinion) somewhat over 20% of folks living in the inner city would. Clearly we have become a society in which at least some sections judge a person's worth pretty superficially.

Down East Labs 217
08-22-2012, 01:41 PM
Cut & Paste?
I'm just guessing due to the spelling..........:cool:

I wondered how he pulled off a whole paragraph without any bad grammar or spelling. I thought for minute maybe he got smarter and was seeing the light. OOPS hopeful thinking doesn't work well with the far left.

My opinion

Richard

menmon
08-22-2012, 02:03 PM
No I'm not saying it is your fault or that you should not have the things that you want...but human emotions drive whether we work hard, blame, envy, etc.

I grew up in a blue-collar family and had great admiration for men that were good with their hands. My heroes were men that could weld pipe that would stand the test of an xray. As I got older and went to school, I saw society looking down their nose at a man that worked with his hands. Maybe this is why the youth of this country don't choose to learn a trade as much anymore or anything for that matter. My point is everyone wants sucess and few understand how to have it. This is not just the fault of the government safety nets but of society as a whole.

Men use to be proud to work at GM but you are a lazy union worker by societies definition now. A postman is a honorable job but you are tagged as waste. Teacher use to be respected and valued but now they take our tax dollars and don't teach our kids. Now think about an impressionable kid hearing his parents say these things so the last thing they want to be is a disappointment to them or shunned by society. I don't have the answers but I think I have some grib on the questions.

huntinman
08-22-2012, 02:13 PM
No I'm not saying it is your fault or that you should not have the things that you want...but human emotions drive whether we work hard, blame, envy, etc.

I grew up in a blue-collar family and had great admiration for men that were good with their hands. My heroes were men that could weld pipe that would stand the test of an xray. As I got older and went to school, I saw society looking down their nose at a man that worked with his hands. Maybe this is why the youth of this country don't choose to learn a trade as much anymore or anything for that matter. My point is everyone wants sucess and few understand how to have it. This is not just the fault of the government safety nets but of society as a whole.

Men use to be proud to work at GM but you are a lazy union worker by societies definition now. A postman is a honorable job but you are tagged as waste. Teacher use to be respected and valued but now they take our tax dollars and don't teach our kids. Now think about an impressionable kid hearing his parents say these things so the last thing they want to be is a disappointment to them or shunned by society. I don't have the answers but I think I have some grib on the questions.


What's a grib?

menmon
08-22-2012, 02:23 PM
grip.................sorry

road kill
08-22-2012, 02:46 PM
No I'm not saying it is your fault or that you should not have the things that you want...but human emotions drive whether we work hard, blame, envy, etc.

I grew up in a blue-collar family and had great admiration for men that were good with their hands. My heroes were men that could weld pipe that would stand the test of an xray. As I got older and went to school, I saw society looking down their nose at a man that worked with his hands. Maybe this is why the youth of this country don't choose to learn a trade as much anymore or anything for that matter. My point is everyone wants sucess and few understand how to have it. This is not just the fault of the government safety nets but of society as a whole.

Men use to be proud to work at GM but you are a lazy union worker by societies definition now. A postman is a honorable job but you are tagged as waste. Teacher use to be respected and valued but now they take our tax dollars and don't teach our kids. Now think about an impressionable kid hearing his parents say these things so the last thing they want to be is a disappointment to them or shunned by society. I don't have the answers but I think I have some grib on the questions.
Those are some broad assumptions.
Based on your logic is one to assume your chidren hate people of means, heterosexual married couples, entrepeneurs, people that served in the military in actions you disapprove of, people that believe in the sanctity of life and those who choose not to do substances of abuse?

menmon
08-22-2012, 03:00 PM
How you got that from what I said is beyound me. I just tried to highlight some of what is the problems of today and why people are on wellfare, manufacturing is overseas, contruction is done by men with green cards. It is not just the governments problem or fault. I don't think Obama has the answers to it but I'm sure Romney doesn't think much about it...most people are just the help.

Cody Covey
08-22-2012, 04:01 PM
No I'm not saying it is your fault or that you should not have the things that you want...but human emotions drive whether we work hard, blame, envy, etc.

I grew up in a blue-collar family and had great admiration for men that were good with their hands. My heroes were men that could weld pipe that would stand the test of an xray. As I got older and went to school, I saw society looking down their nose at a man that worked with his hands. Maybe this is why the youth of this country don't choose to learn a trade as much anymore or anything for that matter. My point is everyone wants sucess and few understand how to have it. This is not just the fault of the government safety nets but of society as a whole.

Men use to be proud to work at GM but you are a lazy union worker by societies definition now. A postman is a honorable job but you are tagged as waste. Teacher use to be respected and valued but now they take our tax dollars and don't teach our kids. Now think about an impressionable kid hearing his parents say these things so the last thing they want to be is a disappointment to them or shunned by society. I don't have the answers but I think I have some grib on the questions.

As someone who has graduated college recently (2009) I can say the reason people aren't doing trades as much is because it is a complete hind sight in the public education system. We aren't even presented with this as an option in school. They push so hard to have everyone, from the smart to the idiots, to go to college. And a university at that. Community College is often scoffed at and tech schools aren't even mentioned. The everyone HAS to go to college is one of the bigger dumbing down of the higher education system there is.

The problem with those jobs is they are over-paid for under-performance. A postman starting out is somewhere around 17 an hour (at least in this area). $17 an hour to walk around and put paper into a box? Come on if thats not a waste I don't know what is. Teachers actually used to teach and do well...now the good ones are restricted by being required to teach to the least common denominator and the bad ones get to keep their job simply because they are union.

I don't think we have a problem with looking down on the working man but what the working man has become in the eyes of a stereotyping society. More pay less work, constantly complaining about the 1% who are the ones providing them the jobs. This is the reason the "working man" is now looked down upon in society.

john fallon
08-22-2012, 08:08 PM
As someone who has graduated college recently (2009) I can say the reason people aren't doing trades as much is because it is a complete hind sight in the public education system. We aren't even presented with this as an option in school. They push so hard to have everyone, from the smart to the idiots, to go to college. And a university at that. Community College is often scoffed at and tech schools aren't even mentioned. The everyone HAS to go to college is one of the bigger dumbing down of the higher education system there is.

The problem with those jobs is they are over-paid for under-performance. A postman starting out is somewhere around 17 an hour (at least in this area). $17 an hour to walk around and put paper into a box? Come on if thats not a waste I don't know what is. Teachers actually used to teach and do well...now the good ones are restricted by being required to teach to the least common denominator and the bad ones get to keep their job simply because they are union.

I don't think we have a problem with looking down on the working man but what the working man has become in the eyes of a stereotyping society. More pay less work, constantly complaining about the 1% who are the ones providing them the jobs. This is the reason the "working man" is now looked down upon in society.

Is $17.00 an hour a lot of money in your estimation ?

Don't get me started on teachers salaries, benefits, and retirement.......for 180 days a year..
http://www.calnews.com/Archives/1YB_II_sal.htm

TABLE 6

Percentage By Which Average Teacher's
State Wages Exceeded Average Worker's Wages
1) Pennsylvania 65.2
2) Rhode Island 59.8
3) Vermont 53.9
4) Oregon 53.7
5) Wisconsin 52.1
6) Alaska 51.8
7) Kansas 48.2
8) Indiana 47.3
9) Michigan 46.7
10) Montana 43.1
11) Connecticut 43.1
12) Maine 42.2
13) Iowa 41.5
14) Maryland 41.3
15) Wyoming 41.3
16) Kentucky 40.8
17) Ohio 40.8
18) Nebraska 40.8
19) Delaware 39.2
20) New Jersey 38.7
21) Washington 37.9
22) New York 37.7
23) California 37.6
24) West Virginia 36.9
25) Illinois 35.9
26) Arkansas 35.8
27) South Carolina 35.8
28) Nevada 35.7
29) Idaho 35.3
30) Minnesota 34.9
31) Florida 34.9
32) New Hampshire 34.5
33) Hawaii 32.7
34) Tennessee 32.3
35) South Dakota 32.2
36) North Dakota 31.6
37) Mississippi 31.1
38) Massachusetts 30.6
39) Colorado 30.4
40) Missouri 29.9
41) Utah 29.5
42) Virginia 29.4
43) Georgia 29.3
44) Alabama 28.4
45) Arizona 28.3
46) New Mexico 26.6
47) Oklahoma 25.3
48) North Carolina 25.0
49) Texas 19.0
50) Louisiana 12.2
51) District of Columbia 2.9


Table 10.

State Salaries & Benefits As Percentage
of Total Instructional Spending

1) Arizona 96.03
2) West Virginia 96.00
3) Kentucky 95.96
4) Indiana 95.46
5) New York 95.37
6) Nevada 95.36
7) Virginia 95.08
8) Michigan 94.70
9) Louisiana 94.60
10) Georgia 94.47
11) Arkansas 93.97
12) North Carolina 93.88
13) Kansas 93.84
14) South Carolina 93.72
15) Alabama 93.46
16) Tennessee 93.44
17) Idaho 93.26
18) Ohio 93.04
19) Wisconsin 93.02
20) Minnesota 92.98
21) New Mexico 92.91
22) Delaware 92.87
23) Rhode Island 92.71
24) Mississippi 92.45
25) Colorado 92.09
26) Illinois 92.02
27) California 91.97
28) Washington 91.93
29) Oklahoma 91.88
30) Hawaii 91.82
31) North Dakota 91.51
32) Maryland 91.44
33) Montana 91.43
34) Nebraska 91.26
35) Texas 91.01
36) District of Columbia 90.80
37) Connecticut 90.67
38) Wyoming 90.66
39) Oregon 90.42
40) New Jersey 90.37
41) Missouri 89.54
42) Alaska 89.49
43) Florida 89.20
44) Pennsylvania 89.01
45) Maine 88.58
46) Iowa 88.55
47) Vermont 88.41
48) South Dakota 88.38
49) Utah 87.89
50) New Hampshire 87.80
51) Massachusetts 85.61

john

john

murral stark
08-22-2012, 08:44 PM
As someone who has graduated college recently (2009) I can say the reason people aren't doing trades as much is because it is a complete hind sight in the public education system. We aren't even presented with this as an option in school. They push so hard to have everyone, from the smart to the idiots, to go to college. And a university at that. Community College is often scoffed at and tech schools aren't even mentioned. The everyone HAS to go to college is one of the bigger dumbing down of the higher education system there is.

The problem with those jobs is they are over-paid for under-performance. A postman starting out is somewhere around 17 an hour (at least in this area). $17 an hour to walk around and put paper into a box? Come on if thats not a waste I don't know what is. Teachers actually used to teach and do well...now the good ones are restricted by being required to teach to the least common denominator and the bad ones get to keep their job simply because they are union.

I don't think we have a problem with looking down on the working man but what the working man has become in the eyes of a stereotyping society. More pay less work, constantly complaining about the 1% who are the ones providing them the jobs. This is the reason the "working man" is now looked down upon in society.

So what about the "Educated Idiots" running a production department that have no clue of how to even operate the epuipment, or what doing that job actually is like? Who is going to do the blue collar jobs that need to be done? Would you "put paper in a box" for $17 an hour or is that beneath you? Remember that they are out there no matter what the weather is. Yes they may have the little truck to drive around, but they still have to get out and be exposed to the elements to put the "paper in a box". what about sorting the mail for their route before they even head out?

Cody Covey
08-22-2012, 10:29 PM
Is $17.00 an hour a lot of money in your estimation ?

Don't get me started on teachers salaries, benefits, and retirement.......for 180 days a year..
http://www.calnews.com/Archives/1YB_II_sal.htm

TABLE 6

Percentage By Which Average Teacher's
State Wages Exceeded Average Worker's Wages
1) Pennsylvania 65.2
2) Rhode Island 59.8
3) Vermont 53.9
4) Oregon 53.7
5) Wisconsin 52.1
6) Alaska 51.8
7) Kansas 48.2
8) Indiana 47.3
9) Michigan 46.7
10) Montana 43.1
11) Connecticut 43.1
12) Maine 42.2
13) Iowa 41.5
14) Maryland 41.3
15) Wyoming 41.3
16) Kentucky 40.8
17) Ohio 40.8
18) Nebraska 40.8
19) Delaware 39.2
20) New Jersey 38.7
21) Washington 37.9
22) New York 37.7
23) California 37.6
24) West Virginia 36.9
25) Illinois 35.9
26) Arkansas 35.8
27) South Carolina 35.8
28) Nevada 35.7
29) Idaho 35.3
30) Minnesota 34.9
31) Florida 34.9
32) New Hampshire 34.5
33) Hawaii 32.7
34) Tennessee 32.3
35) South Dakota 32.2
36) North Dakota 31.6
37) Mississippi 31.1
38) Massachusetts 30.6
39) Colorado 30.4
40) Missouri 29.9
41) Utah 29.5
42) Virginia 29.4
43) Georgia 29.3
44) Alabama 28.4
45) Arizona 28.3
46) New Mexico 26.6
47) Oklahoma 25.3
48) North Carolina 25.0
49) Texas 19.0
50) Louisiana 12.2
51) District of Columbia 2.9


Table 10.

State Salaries & Benefits As Percentage
of Total Instructional Spending

1) Arizona 96.03
2) West Virginia 96.00
3) Kentucky 95.96
4) Indiana 95.46
5) New York 95.37
6) Nevada 95.36
7) Virginia 95.08
8) Michigan 94.70
9) Louisiana 94.60
10) Georgia 94.47
11) Arkansas 93.97
12) North Carolina 93.88
13) Kansas 93.84
14) South Carolina 93.72
15) Alabama 93.46
16) Tennessee 93.44
17) Idaho 93.26
18) Ohio 93.04
19) Wisconsin 93.02
20) Minnesota 92.98
21) New Mexico 92.91
22) Delaware 92.87
23) Rhode Island 92.71
24) Mississippi 92.45
25) Colorado 92.09
26) Illinois 92.02
27) California 91.97
28) Washington 91.93
29) Oklahoma 91.88
30) Hawaii 91.82
31) North Dakota 91.51
32) Maryland 91.44
33) Montana 91.43
34) Nebraska 91.26
35) Texas 91.01
36) District of Columbia 90.80
37) Connecticut 90.67
38) Wyoming 90.66
39) Oregon 90.42
40) New Jersey 90.37
41) Missouri 89.54
42) Alaska 89.49
43) Florida 89.20
44) Pennsylvania 89.01
45) Maine 88.58
46) Iowa 88.55
47) Vermont 88.41
48) South Dakota 88.38
49) Utah 87.89
50) New Hampshire 87.80
51) Massachusetts 85.61

john

john
17 isn't a lot of money but for unskilled work to put some paper in a box it is outrageous.




So what about the "Educated Idiots" running a production department that have no clue of how to even operate the epuipment, or what doing that job actually is like? Who is going to do the blue collar jobs that need to be done? Would you "put paper in a box" for $17 an hour or is that beneath you? Remember that they are out there no matter what the weather is. Yes they may have the little truck to drive around, but they still have to get out and be exposed to the elements to put the "paper in a box". what about sorting the mail for their route before they even head out?


Just because a job needs to be done doesn't mean it requires the outrageous pay of union workers when non union plants make the same parts arguably better for far less money. You make it sound like putting mail in a mail box is real difficult and because they do it in the snow they are worth the money they are being paid....they are not.

HPL
08-22-2012, 10:52 PM
If my calculations are correct $17.00/hr is only a bit over 35K/yr and since I suspect that most postmen are primary wage earners, that doesn't really sound like too much to me. The postal carriers in my area work pretty hard and do a great job, so, I would like them to be able to have a decent standard of living.

menmon
08-23-2012, 09:56 AM
First of all, I want a responsible person handling my mail...not someone that doesn't care. Pay much below $17 and you get don't care.

Now why is it that you do not want people to get the best wage they can? Would you like it if I called up your employer and told him you were overpaid and told him to pay you less. Are you jealous of a man that earns $35,000. I would hope that someone was rewarding him for his good service and dependability.

I guess that electrician making $25 hr is overpaid too....the AC and coffee pot doesn't work if he does not get up and go to work. I damn sure hope they keep him happy.

Now I don't think you could pay me enough to put up with children in todays world that are disrespectful and think they are entited to anything they want...so please quit complaining about paying a teacher.

Now I know it is coming....I pay those salaries with my taxes. No you pay taxes and before you start playing boss with all these people, think about how little you really pay and what you get for it. I'm sure you would not go put up with kids in a classroom for what they are paid and what you pay probably does not cover the mailman's wage or teachers salary. As for as that union worker is concerned, let him and his union work it out with his employer. If he can get a good wage to care for his family be happy for him. But no Rush and fox news have told you that these are the evils of society and you have to elect a person that doesn't care about the working man so your taxes can go down a few hundred dollars.....please step back and listen to yourselves.

Why do they bash the unions, because they support the other side. Think please

Franco
08-23-2012, 10:07 AM
First of all, I want a responsible person handling my mail...not someone that doesn't care. Pay much below $17 and you get don't care.

Now why is it that you do not want people to get the best wage they can? Would you like it if I called up your employer and told him you were overpaid and told him to pay you less. Are you jealous of a man that earns $35,000. I would hope that someone was rewarding him for his good service and dependability.

I guess that electrician making $25 hr is overpaid too....the AC and coffee pot doesn't work if he does not get up and go to work. I damn sure hope they keep him happy.

Now I don't think you could pay me enough to put up with children in todays world that are disrespectful and think they are entited to anything they want...so please quit complaining about paying a teacher.

Now I know it is coming....I pay those salaries with my taxes. No you pay taxes and before you start playing boss with all these people, think about how little you really pay and what you get for it. I'm sure you would not go put up with kids in a classroom for what they are paid and what you pay probably does not cover the mailman's wage or teachers salary. As for as that union worker is concerned, let him and his union work it out with his employer. If he can get a good wage to care for his family be happy for him. But no Rush and fox news have told you that these are the evils of society and you have to elect a person that doesn't care about the working man so your taxes can go down a few hundred dollars.....please step back and listen to yourselves.

Why do they bash the unions, because they support the other side. Think please

Electricians, AC mechanics and plumbers around here get $85. an hour and I have no problem with that. Their rate is market driven and a bargain for what they provide!

road kill
08-23-2012, 10:26 AM
First of all, I want a responsible person handling my mail...not someone that doesn't care. Pay much below $17 and you get don't care.

Now why is it that you do not want people to get the best wage they can? Would you like it if I called up your employer and told him you were overpaid and told him to pay you less. Are you jealous of a man that earns $35,000. I would hope that someone was rewarding him for his good service and dependability.

I guess that electrician making $25 hr is overpaid too....the AC and coffee pot doesn't work if he does not get up and go to work. I damn sure hope they keep him happy.

Now I don't think you could pay me enough to put up with children in todays world that are disrespectful and think they are entited to anything they want...so please quit complaining about paying a teacher.

Now I know it is coming....I pay those salaries with my taxes. No you pay taxes and before you start playing boss with all these people, think about how little you really pay and what you get for it. I'm sure you would not go put up with kids in a classroom for what they are paid and what you pay probably does not cover the mailman's wage or teachers salary. As for as that union worker is concerned, let him and his union work it out with his employer. If he can get a good wage to care for his family be happy for him. But no Rush and fox news have told you that these are the evils of society and you have to elect a person that doesn't care about the working man so your taxes can go down a few hundred dollars.....please step back and listen to yourselves.

Why do they bash the unions, because they support the other side. Think please
Yet you despise Romney because he earns too much!!

ARay11
08-23-2012, 10:33 AM
As someone who has graduated college recently (2009) I can say the reason people aren't doing trades as much is because it is a complete hind sight in the public education system. We aren't even presented with this as an option in school. They push so hard to have everyone, from the smart to the idiots, to go to college. And a university at that. Community College is often scoffed at and tech schools aren't even mentioned. The everyone HAS to go to college is one of the bigger dumbing down of the higher education system there is.

Our oldest just graduated HS.... fortunately we are in an area that still promotes trades. We live less than 5 miles from a large vo-tech school. They even have a bus that runs to pick up kids who could not otherwise get there. It is a fantastic addition for an area that is high-percentage below poverty level. However, we did spend 17 years in Texas, and in that area (largely ABOVE the poverty level) there was never any mention of trade schools or vo-tech. They pushed college and armed forces.


[QUOTE=sambo;1001731]First of all, I want a responsible person handling my mail...not someone that doesn't care. Pay much below $17 and you get don't care.
amen to that...however.... I think we can all agree that the postal service as a whole is due a serious over-haul. I do not think the carrying postmen are over paid.... I think the department as a whole is a tragedy in and of itself... just another example of government run amuck.
Now why is it that you do not want people to get the best wage they can? Would you like it if I called up your employer and told him you were overpaid and told him to pay you less. Are you jealous of a man that earns $35,000. I would hope that someone was rewarding him for his good service and dependability.

I guess that electrician making $25 hr is overpaid too....the AC and coffee pot doesn't work if he does not get up and go to work. I damn sure hope they keep him happy.
My electrician is a well paid guy and we love him. But not sure how this example fits into the guy paid by tax dollars?

Now I don't think you could pay me enough to put up with children in todays world that are disrespectful and think they are entited to anything they want...so please quit complaining about paying a teacher.
Me neither!! I have always said I am glad God gave some folks the ability to deal with children. Its not my cup of tea unless they are mine :)
If we could trim some out of the Dept Of Ed, maybe we could find a way to pay our educators more. They certainly deserve it. I do not believe Education can be privatized. I also do not believe the current system will ever produce excellence. It just isn't possible. I have a dear friend who is finishing her teaching degree. During her student teaching, she discovered teaching in this area is more about educating kids on how to comb their hair, brush their teeth, and speak than it is about ABC's and 123's. Beyond that, they are forced to "teach a test" for state mandated testing. The pace of class is set by the slowest student. How is this encouraging or fostering excellence? Don't get me wrong, I do not want to see that slowest student left behind. I'm just saying that the current system does not allow for excellence.

Our tax dollars can be trimmed without cutting salaries for teachers, postmen, or the city janitor. It CAN be done by cutting pure government WASTE.

menmon
08-23-2012, 10:36 AM
No I don't....I despise people of good fortune that don't care for the less fortunate. It is not that he is not a caring man...I think he is a good man. I have had dealing with men like him for years and their focus is their wellbeing and nothing wrong with that. But they are not president of the USA, and that job comes with the responsibility of caring for the less fortunate.

menmon
08-23-2012, 10:41 AM
ARAY we agree on a lot of things...better watchout....you are going to find that you more aligned with the democrats;)

I used the example of the electrician because folks complain about what union workers make. I say get as much as they will give you. I know I want as much as I can get.

road kill
08-23-2012, 10:48 AM
No I don't....I despise people of good fortune that don't care for the less fortunate. It is not that he is not a caring man...I think he is a good man. I have had dealing with men like him for years and their focus is their wellbeing and nothing wrong with that. But they are not president of the USA, and that job comes with the responsibility of caring for the less fortunate.
Who & what exactly does Obama care about?:cool:

menmon
08-23-2012, 10:51 AM
Obviously you are not paying attention or just paying attention to what you want to hear

achiro
08-23-2012, 10:59 AM
No I don't....I despise people of good fortune that don't care for the less fortunate. It is not that he is not a caring man...I think he is a good man. I have had dealing with men like him for years and their focus is their wellbeing and nothing wrong with that. But they are not president of the USA, and that job comes with the responsibility of caring for the less fortunate.

To say that MR doesn't care about the less fortunate is pretty ignorant. Dude has volunteered more of his time and money than any politiacian I know of. This is a cut and paste from that dim favorite, snopes.

Volunteer campaign worker for his dad's gubernatorial campaign 1 year.

Unpaid intern in Governor's office 8 years.

Mormon missionary in Paris 2 years.

Unpaid bishop and stake president for his church 10 years.

No salary as president of the Olympics 3 years.

No salary as MA governor 4 years.

That's a grand total of 28 years of unpaid service to his country, his community and his church. Why? Because that's the kind of man Mitt Romney is!

And in 2011 Mitt Romney gave over $4 million to charity, almost 19% of his income ... Obama gave 1% Joe Biden gave $300 or .0013% This is real character vs ... well you know what!

Chris S.
08-23-2012, 11:59 AM
No I don't....I despise people of good fortune that don't care for the less fortunate. It is not that he is not a caring man...I think he is a good man. I have had dealing with men like him for years and their focus is their wellbeing and nothing wrong with that. But they are not president of the USA, and that job comes with the responsibility of caring for the less fortunate.

Unless you are looking at others' finances, you have no idea who is and who is not caring for less fortunate in addition to the tax burden. How do you determine who should be despised?

Marvin S
08-23-2012, 12:02 PM
Our oldest just graduated HS.... fortunately we are in an area that still promotes trades. We live less than 5 miles from a large vo-tech school. They even have a bus that runs to pick up kids who could not otherwise get there. It is a fantastic addition for an area that is high-percentage below poverty level. However, we did spend 17 years in Texas, and in that area (largely ABOVE the poverty level) there was never any mention of trade schools or vo-tech. They pushed college and armed forces.


[QUOTE=sambo;1001731] Now I don't think you could pay me enough to put up with children in todays world that are disrespectful and think they are entited to anything they want...so please quit complaining about paying a teacher.
Me neither!! I have always said I am glad God gave some folks the ability to deal with children. Its not my cup of tea unless they are mine :)
If we could trim some out of the Dept Of Ed, maybe we could find a way to pay our educators more.They certainly deserve it. I do not believe Education can be privatized. I also do not believe the current system will ever produce excellence. It just isn't possible. I have a dear friend who is finishing her teaching degree. During her student teaching, she discovered teaching in this area is more about educating kids on how to comb their hair, brush their teeth, and speak than it is about ABC's and 123's. Beyond that, they are forced to "teach a test" for state mandated testing. The pace of class is set by the slowest student. How is this encouraging or fostering excellence? Don't get me wrong, I do not want to see that slowest student left behind. I'm just saying that the current system does not allow for excellence.

Our tax dollars can be trimmed without cutting salaries for teachers, postmen, or the city janitor. It CAN be done by cutting pure government WASTE.

I would like to hear what factual info you have that supports that statement :confused: . What is OK educators compensation level?

ARay11
08-23-2012, 12:57 PM
I would like to hear what factual info you have that supports that statement :confused: . What is OK educators compensation level?[/QUOTE]


In oklahoma: Vested teachers get around $36k, starting salary $29k. Teacher's aides are paid $800/mo. There are teachers who deserve more, there are teachers who need to be run completely out of the field. When our beloved sports heroes make millions, surely we could find a way to pay a teacher a decent salary. We can put a spacecraft on mars, for crying out loud, surely we can figure out a proper income for a teacher.

what do i view as proper? around $60k. That way you could actually attract the right people into the field.

We trust these people to educate our children. Why can't we trust ourselves to make sure they are the right people?

menmon
08-23-2012, 01:06 PM
ARAY we agree again....

Jason Glavich
08-23-2012, 01:38 PM
I would like to hear what factual info you have that supports that statement :confused: . What is OK educators compensation level?


In oklahoma: Vested teachers get around $36k, starting salary $29k. Teacher's aides are paid $800/mo. There are teachers who deserve more, there are teachers who need to be run completely out of the field. When our beloved sports heroes make millions, surely we could find a way to pay a teacher a decent salary. We can put a spacecraft on mars, for crying out loud, surely we can figure out a proper income for a teacher.

what do i view as proper? around $60k. That way you could actually attract the right people into the field.

We trust these people to educate our children. Why can't we trust ourselves to make sure they are the right people?
[/QUOTE]

What grade would rate 60k? Is that for all teachers? I think certain deserve more some deserve less.

HPL
08-23-2012, 02:00 PM
Now why is it that you do not want people to get the best wage they can? Would you like it if I called up your employer and told him you were overpaid and told him to pay you less. Are you jealous of a man that earns $35,000. I would hope that someone was rewarding him for his good service and dependability.


Why do they bash the unions, because they support the other side. Think please

I'm assuming from context that you are talking about the Postal Workers' Union. The problem I have with unionized Government employees is that "management" has little or no incentive to negotiate on behalf of the stockholders (taxpayers).

john fallon
08-23-2012, 02:12 PM
In Penn., the average yearly teachers salary at $55,150,(funded primarily by RE Tax) is 65% higher than the average salary at large.

This is not an true comparison since the teacher makes their $55,150 for nine months work or roughly 75% of a normal work year. If they did work a normal work year and were compensated at the same rate, they would pull down about $73,300.
It gets worse; keep in mind, the salary figures quoted to not include their outlandish benefits pkg of on average 32%............

john

menmon
08-23-2012, 02:52 PM
I lived in NJ and I know that $55M does not go as far as it does in Texas....I'm sure if you ran it through a cost of living calculator it would be at $25M or less in Houston. Same for someone working at car plant in MI...when you speak of the hourly wage it is a lot in Houson but not near as much in MI. Complaining about someones wage in a part of the country that is much different than yours is just sound bits for the spin doctors. I was making $30M at a bank in houston before I went to work in NY. I thought I was rich with my $25M signon bonus and $100M salary. I was better off with my $30M in Houston. So for example when people complain about Wall Street bonuses just divide what they get by 2.5x and you are at Texas wages. Yes there were folks that got big bonuses that should not have but for most of the folks their, they need those bonuses so they can live in their trashy 1 bedroom apartment that the rent is $4M a month.

ARay11
08-23-2012, 03:36 PM
In Penn., the average yearly teachers salary at $55,150,(funded primarily by RE Tax) is 65% higher than the average salary at large.

This is not an true comparison since the teacher makes their $55,150 for nine months work or roughly 75% of a normal work year. If they did work a normal work year and were compensated at the same rate, they would pull down about $73,300.
It gets worse; keep in mind, the salary figures quoted to not include their outlandish benefits pkg of on average 32%............

john

If an Okla teacher was offered that kind of money .... they'd probably pass out.
We live only about an hour or so from the TX border.... many of our better graduating college kids go to TX to teach school. Starting salary there is higher than our vested teacher's make.

Marvin S
08-23-2012, 09:57 PM
what do i view as proper? around $60k. That way you could actually attract the right people into the field.

The feds tried that in the early 60's & continued it - where has that gotten us :confused:?


In Penn., the average yearly teachers salary at $55,150,(funded primarily by RE Tax) is 65% higher than the average salary at large.

This is not an true comparison since the teacher makes their $55,150 for nine months work or roughly 75% of a normal work year. If they did work a normal work year and were compensated at the same rate, they would pull down about $73,300.
It gets worse; keep in mind, the salary figures quoted to not include their outlandish benefits pkg of on average 32%............ john

In WA 1980 contactual hour were 69% of what a full time employee worked with time offs included. It has only gotten to be less since.


If an Okla teacher was offered that kind of money .... they'd probably pass out.
We live only about an hour or so from the TX border.... many of our better graduating college kids go to TX to teach school. Starting salary there is higher than our vested teacher's make.

You normally post like a fairly lucid individual - so I'll pass this on - THE GRASS ALWAYS LOOKS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE :).

But here are some facts - the talent pool for educators comes from the lower 25% of those who take the SAT & graduate from college. & the product they produce is evidence of that!!!!!!

When I went to SDSM&T in the mid-50's the professors took great pride in their ability to winnow out those unqualified to hold an engineering degree. Total class averages of matriculation to graduation varied between 25-33%. When they could not cut it there they went to a business school aka Samboville U - when they failed at SU it was off to the normal school. For every good teacher I have had in 16+ years of being a student there were 20 that varied from mediocre to not as mediocre.

Teachers are like politicians - the one that's local is OK which is pure BS. Along with cops & firefighters they rank as the 3 most overpaid professions in this country :o.

HPL
08-24-2012, 08:47 AM
I lived in NJ and I know that $55M does not go as far as it does in Texas....I'm sure if you ran it through a cost of living calculator it would be at $25M or less in Houston. Same for someone working at car plant in MI...when you speak of the hourly wage it is a lot in Houson but not near as much in MI. Complaining about someones wage in a part of the country that is much different than yours is just sound bits for the spin doctors. I was making $30M at a bank in houston before I went to work in NY. I thought I was rich with my $25M signon bonus and $100M salary. I was better off with my $30M in Houston. So for example when people complain about Wall Street bonuses just divide what they get by 2.5x and you are at Texas wages. Yes there were folks that got big bonuses that should not have but for most of the folks their, they need those bonuses so they can live in their trashy 1 bedroom apartment that the rent is $4M a month.

I have to say that you are living in a VERY rarified atmosphere if you couldn't live anywhere on $55M and now we really wonder why you are carping all the time about the top 1% if you actually make $30M. I have to say that I have never heard of ANY one bedroom apt renting for $4M/month!!!

menmon
08-24-2012, 08:59 AM
I had high SAT and GMAT scores, but I would make a horrible teacher. In fact, someone that worked harder for their grades is probably better at helping a kid that is struggling.

I spent years working with the over ambitious that went to the right schools and got the right jobs, but along the way I worked with folks that were just as smart but had different priorities, like family. Clearly these individuals could have done more but chose not to.

I think as a rule people who become teachers need less to make them happy. In fact I envy some of the teachers I know because the have more time for their families, fishing and hunting.

road kill
08-24-2012, 09:29 AM
I had high SAT and GMAT scores, but I would make a horrible teacher. In fact, someone that worked harder for their grades is probably better at helping a kid that is struggling.

I spent years working with the over ambitious that went to the right schools and got the right jobs, but along the way I worked with folks that were just as smart but had different priorities, like family. Clearly these individuals could have done more but chose not to.I think as a rule people who become teachers need less to make them happy. In fact I envy some of the teachers I know because the have more time for their families, fishing and hunting.

BINGO!!!!!!

I think you are starting to get it sambo!!!!!:D

ARay11
08-24-2012, 10:17 AM
[QUOTE=Marvin S;1001994]

The feds tried that in the early 60's & continued it - where has that gotten us :confused:?

So if they tried it, why are our teachers making so little? Sorry, $30k is not much money. I understand others in different areas of the country make more.... but here, there is zero incentive to become a teacher.

In WA 1980 contactual hour were 69% of what a full time employee worked with time offs included. It has only gotten to be less since.



You normally post like a fairly lucid individual - so I'll pass this on - THE GRASS ALWAYS LOOKS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE :). And of course we still have to mow it.... LOL

But here are some facts - the talent pool for educators comes from the lower 25% of those who take the SAT & graduate from college. & the product they produce is evidence of that!!!!!!
Wonder why?? If you are in the top 10% of your class, and you can become an engineer and earn 6-fig+ income .... or your option is to become a teacher and starve to death the rest of your life... which one will you choose? Which one have you been groomed to choose?

When I went to SDSM&T in the mid-50's the professors took great pride in their ability to winnow out those unqualified to hold an engineering degree. Total class averages of matriculation to graduation varied between 25-33%. When they could not cut it there they went to a business school aka Samboville U - when they failed at SU it was off to the normal school. For every good teacher I have had in 16+ years of being a student there were 20 that varied from mediocre to not as mediocre.
Those professors doing the winnowing were trained to do so. Why? Because they are trying to produce the best of the best. Wonder what would happen if those teaching our "future educators" did so with the same determination?

Teachers are like politicians - the one that's local is OK which is pure BS. Along with cops & firefighters they rank as the 3 most overpaid professions in this country :o

When you pay peanuts......



PS.....Sambo, dangit u gotta quit Biden'ing the boards.... K is thousand, M is Million. :-P

Marvin S
08-24-2012, 07:16 PM
So if they tried it, why are our teachers making so little? Sorry, $30k is not much money. I understand others in different areas of the country make more.... but here, there is zero incentive to become a teacher.


If you don't believe $25 an hour worked is sufficient for a beginner with the qualifications most teachers arrive with then they want you on the school board :razz:.





Wonder why?? If you are in the top 10% of your class, and you can become an engineer and earn 6-fig+ income .... or your option is to become a teacher and starve to death the rest of your life... which one will you choose? Which one have you been groomed to choose?

6 figure incomes for engineers is a myth, those who arrive there are mostly worth it - what you are trying to defend is people not so smart trying to get paid like people who are :).


Wonder what would happen if those teaching our "future educators" did so with the same determination?

It's been their show for years,they managed to screw it up royally, now the students suffer!!!!!!!! but they are still richly compensated.

Gerry Clinchy
08-24-2012, 08:11 PM
One of Thomas Sowell's "favorite quotations" (from his website)


There are many who find a good alibi far more attractive than an achievement. For an achievement does not settle anything permanently. We still have to prove our worth anew each day: we have to prove that we are as good today as we were yesterday. But when we have a valid alibi for not achieving anything we are fixed, so to speak, for life.
--Eric Hoffer 21

Gerry Clinchy
08-24-2012, 08:51 PM
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell082212.php3



A Powerful Movie By Thomas Sowell
Years, and sometimes decades, pass between my visits to movie theaters. But I drove 30 miles to see the movie "2016," based on Dinesh D'Souza's best-selling book, "The Roots of Obama's Rage." Where I live is so politically correct that such a movie would not even be mentioned, much less shown.

Every seat in the theater was filled, even though there had been an earlier showing that day, and more showings were scheduled for the rest of the afternoon and evening. I had to sit on a staircase in the balcony, but it was worth it.

The audience was riveted. You could barely hear a sound from them, or detect a movement, and certainly not smell popcorn. Yet the movie had no bombast, no violence, no sex and no spectacular visual effects.

The documentary itself was fascinating, as Dinesh D'Souza presented the story of Barack Obama's life and view of the world, in a very conversational sort of way, illustrating it with visits to people and places around the world that played a role in the way Obama's ideas and beliefs evolved.

It was refreshing to see how addressing adults as adults could be effective, in an age when so many parts of the media address the public as if they were children who need a constant whirlwind of sounds and movements to keep them interested.

Dinesh D'Souza's own perspective, as someone born in India who came to America and became an American, provided a special insight into the way people from the Third World often perceive or misperceive the United States and the Western world.

That Third World perspective is Obama's perspective, D'Souza demonstrates in this documentary, as in his book — and it is a perspective that is very foreign to that of most Americans, which may be why some believe that Obama was born elsewhere.

D'Souza is convinced that the president was born in Hawaii, as he claims, but argues that not only Obama's time living in Indonesia and his emotionally charged visits to his father's home in Africa, have had a deep and impassioned effect on his thinking.

The story of Barack Obama, however, is not just the story of how one man came to be the way he is. It is a much larger story about how millions of Americans came to vote for, and some to idolize, a man whose fundamental beliefs and values are so different from their own.

For every person who sees Obama as somehow foreign there are many others who see him as a mainstream American political figure — and an inspiring one.

This D'Souza attributes to Barack Obama's great talents in rhetoric, and his ability to project an image that resonates with most Americans, however much that image may differ from, or even flatly contradict, the reality of Obama's own ideological view of the world.

What is that ideological view?

The Third World, or anti-colonial, view is that the rich nations have gotten rich by taking wealth from the poor nations. It is part of a much larger vision, in which the rich in general have gotten rich by taking from the poor, whether in their own country or elsewhere.

Whatever its factual weaknesses, it is an emotionally powerful vision, to which many people have dedicated their lives, and for which some have even risked their lives. Some of these people appear in this documentary movie, as they have appeared throughout the formative phases of Barack Obama's life.

The Reverend Jeremiah Wright is just the most visible and vocal of a long line of such people who played crucial roles in Obama's evolution. When Jeremiah Wright thundered about how "white folks' greed runs a world in need," he captured the essence of the Third World or anti-colonial vision.

But many of the other mentors, allies, family and friends of Barack Obama over the years were of the same mindset, as this documentary demonstrates.

More important, the movie "2016" demonstrates how so many of Obama's actions as President of the United States, which D'Souza had predicted on the basis of his study of Obama's background, are perfectly consistent with that ideology, however inconsistent it is with the rhetoric that gained him the highest office in the land.

mngundog
08-24-2012, 10:55 PM
Ray there's no use arguing with someone like that, it wouldn't matter if starting pay was $15k, it would be to much. There are those that hate veterans, cops, firefighters, teachers regardless of the truth, he is one of them, the same type that would spit on our serviceman returning from Vietnam.

road kill
08-25-2012, 06:40 AM
Ray there's no use arguing with someone like that, it wouldn't matter if starting pay was $15k, it would be to much. There are those that hate veterans, cops, firefighters, teachers regardless of the truth, he is one of them, the same type that would spit on our serviceman returning from Vietnam.
Actually, when I returned thru Long Beach (Berkely), the people that spit at us, threw human excrement at us and screamed at us were not right-wing extremist at all.

They were longhaired, left leaning, pot smoking hippy types.
The people that grew up to be todays Democrats (secular progressives)!!!

HPL
08-25-2012, 07:34 AM
Ray there's no use arguing with someone like that, it wouldn't matter if starting pay was $15k, it would be to much. There are those that hate veterans, cops, firefighters, teachers regardless of the truth, he is one of them, the same type that would spit on our serviceman returning from Vietnam.


Man, now that's really revisionist history. Were you even alive during the Vietnam era? I was in highschool and am about 2 years too young to have been drafted, but I certainly know exactly what the politics of the folks who were spitting on the troops and burning flags was. Liberal Democrats. Traitors like Jane Fonda and terrorists like Bill Ayers.

luvmylabs23139
08-25-2012, 08:28 AM
Ray there's no use arguing with someone like that, it wouldn't matter if starting pay was $15k, it would be to much. There are those that hate veterans, cops, firefighters, teachers regardless of the truth, he is one of them, the same type that would spit on our serviceman returning from Vietnam.

Really????? You make that comment about someone who served in Vietnam?????

huntinman
08-25-2012, 09:13 AM
Ray there's no use arguing with someone like that, it wouldn't matter if starting pay was $15k, it would be to much. There are those that hate veterans, cops, firefighters, teachers regardless of the truth, he is one of them, the same type that would spit on our serviceman returning from Vietnam.

Wow! Been to the Stephanie Cutter school of truth? You just stepped way over the line.

BonMallari
08-25-2012, 09:54 AM
Ray there's no use arguing with someone like that, it wouldn't matter if starting pay was $15k, it would be to much. There are those that hate veterans, cops, firefighters, teachers regardless of the truth, he is one of them, the same type that would spit on our serviceman returning from Vietnam.


You really stepped in it this time, not only are so so wrong about Marvin S...you owe the man an apology...making a statement like that when you know nothing about his past.I have only known the man for a couple of years but he has been field trialing with my brother and other friends of mine since the early 70's, and he is about as staunch a conservative man as there is, especially coming from the NW surrounded by a whole bunch of tree huggers and other Patty Murray libs...he would NEVER disrespect our servicemen

Marvin is probably the only one amongst us who has real political experience and actually tried to make a difference by running for public office instead of sitting on the sidelines and whining and biaaatching about it...

gmhr1
08-25-2012, 12:14 PM
All I can say is please vote even if your not thrilled with Obama or Romney give Romney a chance if he doesnt do what he promises we can get rid of him at the end of his term. Dont keep Obama when his policies failed and he cannot do anything different in the next four years. You would not keep paying a employee that cant do their job you would fire them and hire someone else. Thats all were doing getting rid of a dud and trying again. A vote is to important to waste on a thrid party that cannot win. Its our turn to tell Obama your fired and tak all your corrupt staff with you.Lets clean house and try again....

charly_t
08-25-2012, 12:52 PM
All I can say is please vote even if your not thrilled with Obama or Romney give Romney a chance if he doesnt do what he promises we can get rid of him at the end of his term. Dont keep Obama when his policies failed and he cannot do anything different in the next four years. You would not keep paying a employee that cant do their job you would fire them and hire someone else. Thats all were doing getting rid of a dud and trying again. A vote is to important to waste on a thrid party that cannot win. Its our turn to tell Obama your fired and tak all your corrupt staff with you.Lets clean house and try again....

Good post ! We need to do just that.....vote the gang out.

Run N Gun
08-25-2012, 03:17 PM
I'm asking do you want a tax dodger in the whitehouse? If so, why do you think it is ok for Romney to pay less than half of what you pay in taxes as a percentage of his income? Because he is smarter than you is not a good answer. Who out there has accounts in the Camen Islands and Switzerlland? Oh yea Bermunda?

I'm sure some of you could but dodging tax is hopefully not a major passtime of yours.

You have to remember whim your dealing with. Your not dealing with a reasonable Republican party, this Republican party are racist who think that there are a difference between rape and legitiment rape, this is a republican party that would abort a fetus if it was conceived by incest! They don't like Obama because his name is Obama, they don't like Obama because he is black and that was proven day one when the Republican leadership had a meeting after Obama was elected and that day they decided to make sure Obama failed and they have done that at the expense of our country. I have voted for Republicans many times, I voted for George W the first time....But todays Republican party are absolutely crazy, they forget that a Republican administration got us into this mess in the first place and it took them 8 year and now a Dem administration haven't fixed their mess yet and they want them out and they say he isn't a American and they make claims that he's a socialist. At the end of the day today's Republicans are Racist, Sexist money hungry criminals.

gmhr1
08-25-2012, 03:51 PM
You shouldn't hold an entire party responsible because of what one person says or you have to say the dems are all racists because of what Biden has said on more than one occasion. Biden is the biggest racists out there! The answer is show the proof that Romney is a tax dodger or get off it no one has presented any proof . We have proof in writing what Obama has done and plans on doing with his 21 new taxes for everybodys free health care.

mngundog
08-25-2012, 04:22 PM
You really stepped in it this time, not only are so so wrong about Marvin S...you owe the man an apology...making a statement like that when you know nothing about his past.I have only known the man for a couple of years but he has been field trialing with my brother and other friends of mine since the early 70's, and he is about as staunch a conservative man as there is, especially coming from the NW surrounded by a whole bunch of tree huggers and other Patty Murray libs...he would NEVER disrespect our servicemen

Marvin is probably the only one amongst us who has real political experience and actually tried to make a difference by running for public office instead of sitting on the sidelines and whining and biaaatching about it...
Bon, after reading a bunch of made up crap about teachers I could laugh it off as some crabby uneducated old man who had it out for a neighbor who was a teacher, but when he chose to piss on the graves of 300+ firefighters who died in 9/11 I chose to speak up. For the record I was never in the military, I'm the son of a Vietnam vetern who was also a school teacher, I myself am a former police officer and a part time fireman.

Gerry Clinchy
08-25-2012, 04:59 PM
You have to remember whim your dealing with. Your not dealing with a reasonable Republican party, this Republican party are racist who think that there are a difference between rape and legitiment rape, this is a republican party that would abort a fetus if it was conceived by incest! They don't like Obama because his name is Obama, they don't like Obama because he is black and that was proven day one when the Republican leadership had a meeting after Obama was elected and that day they decided to make sure Obama failed and they have done that at the expense of our country. I have voted for Republicans many times, I voted for George W the first time....But todays Republican party are absolutely crazy, they forget that a Republican administration got us into this mess in the first place and it took them 8 year and now a Dem administration haven't fixed their mess yet and they want them out and they say he isn't a American and they make claims that he's a socialist. At the end of the day today's Republicans are Racist, Sexist money hungry criminals.

Rather extreme claim there.

If we can judge the whole Republican party based on a comment by Akin ... then can we also judge all the Democrat Party by a local Democrat State Rep who beat his wife and then drove off drunk? Are all Dems then wife-beating, women-hating alcoholics?

HPL
08-26-2012, 01:09 AM
Rather extreme claim there.

If we can judge the whole Republican party based on a comment by Akin ... then can we also judge all the Democrat Party by a local Democrat State Rep who beat his wife and then drove off drunk? Are all Dems then wife-beating, women-hating alcoholics?-

I don't think it would necessarily be fair to say ALL.............;-)

luvmylabs23139
08-26-2012, 08:56 AM
Bon, after reading a bunch of made up crap about teachers I could laugh it off as some crabby uneducated old man who had it out for a neighbor who was a teacher, but when he chose to piss on the graves of 300+ firefighters who died in 9/11 I chose to speak up. For the record I was never in the military, I'm the son of a Vietnam vetern who was also a school teacher, I myself am a former police officer and a part time fireman.


So in your opinion republicans spit on the graves of the FF's that died in 911????? That is nuts! I personally lost high school friends that were FDNY that day, one of which was also a member of our local vol fire dpt that I was also an EMT with prior to then. His body was never recovered.

coachmo
08-26-2012, 10:01 AM
Run n gun if you truly believe the post you made regarding all republicans then you are a complete, without a doubt, absolute, brainless, mindless idiot!

Down East Labs 217
08-26-2012, 10:15 AM
You have to remember whim your dealing with. Your not dealing with a reasonable Republican party, this Republican party are racist who think that there are a difference between rape and legitiment rape, this is a republican party that would abort a fetus if it was conceived by incest! They don't like Obama because his name is Obama, they don't like Obama because he is black and that was proven day one when the Republican leadership had a meeting after Obama was elected and that day they decided to make sure Obama failed and they have done that at the expense of our country. I have voted for Republicans many times, I voted for George W the first time....But todays Republican party are absolutely crazy, they forget that a Republican administration got us into this mess in the first place and it took them 8 year and now a Dem administration haven't fixed their mess yet and they want them out and they say he isn't a American and they make claims that he's a socialist. At the end of the day today's Republicans are Racist, Sexist money hungry criminals.

I am pretty sure this is an internet tough guy who loves to stir up a mess. However, if you were in front of him he would be meek and mild and afraid to speak.

I do love it when people make retarded comments from left field. They just help prove how blind americans have become. Oh, before I forget, it is still GW's fault 4 years later.

My opinion

Richard

mngundog
08-26-2012, 11:32 AM
I am pretty sure this is an internet tough guy who loves to stir up a mess. However, if you were in front of him he would be meek and mild and afraid to speak.

I do love it when people make retarded comments from left field. They just help prove how blind americans have become. Oh, before I forget, it is still GW's fault 4 years later.


Richard
Obama is doing a poor job of getting us out of the mess that Bush put us in, I don't think anyone is going to argue about those two points. The problem lies in the fact that we have only the same two parties to choose from.

BonMallari
08-26-2012, 11:42 AM
Obama is doing a poor job of getting us out of the mess that Bush put us in, I don't think anyone is going to argue about those two points. The problem lies in the fact that we have only the same two parties to choose from.

and by and large the same Senators and Congresspersons that we have had for the last 20+ years...plenty of blame to go all around...if we only had term limits, IMO it would negate the stranglehold the two parties have on politics

HPL
08-26-2012, 12:25 PM
You have to remember with whom you're dealing . You're not dealing with a reasonable Republican party, this Republican party are racists who think that there is a difference between rape and legitimate rape; this is a republican party that would (not) abort a fetus if it was conceived by incest! They don't like Obama because his name is Obama. They don't like Obama because he is black; that was proven day one when the Republican leadership had a meeting after Obama was elected and that day they decided to make sure Obama failed. They have done that to the great benefit of our country. I have voted for Republicans many times. I voted for George W the first time....But todays Republican party are absolutely crazy, they forget that a Republican administration (with a Democratic controlled congress) got us into this mess in the first place and it took them 8 years. Now a Dem administration hasen't fixed their mess yet and they want them out. They say he isn't an American and they make claims that he's a socialist. At the end of the day today's Republicans are Racist, Sexist money hungry criminals.

Can't you just see this individual, hunched over the keyboard, perhaps frothing at the mouth a bit, feverishly pecking away, in such a hurry to bang out their "thoughts" that there is no time to actually formulate them. No time (or perhaps no ability) to proof them.

I think that any REASONABLE person would agree that there are extremists in both main political parties and that those extremists often get the most news coverage because that's what makes a good story. Obama is the one that has called for a "fundamental change" in America. Fundamental change of a long standing (and some would say successful) system is certainly an extreme thing and extremists, by definition tend to be "unreasonable". I think that it is easily arguable that Romney/Ryan are much more moderate than Obama, thus I would suggest that if any party is "unreasonable" it would be the Democrats.



I don't really care what Obama's name is, it is his policies that disturb me. It is the somewhat odd (and perhaps telling) things that he has said (esp. his comment to Putin about having "more latitude AFTER the election) and his known associates list (Bill Ayers, Eric Holder, Rev Wright, etc.) that concern me.

As to the question of Obama being a socialist. Look up the definition. He clearly holds socialist views, and supports socialist ideals. If the word didn't carry the baggage it does in in the U.S. I am sure that he would be calling himself one.

In addressing the charge that Republicans are racist and sexist, I will say that certainly SOME surely are (those folks can be found in all areas of the body politic). Is it rampant? I certainly don't think so. If you want to see truly overt racism in today's society, you only have to look to the black or Latino communities (many of whom vote democrat). I don't mean just their obvious contempt for what is commonly referred to as "white folks", but also the attitudes of blacks toward Latinos and Latinos toward blacks.

Now for the "charge" of being "money hungry": It is my observation that folks making such charges want MORE money themselves (which makes the charge a bit ironic, in my opinion). I would submit that there is really nothing wrong with being "money hungry". It frequently leads to achievement and success. The real problem is that the folks accusing other folks of being money hungry usually want to acquire money from those folks without offering anything of equal value in return, and attribute the success of others to luck or happenstance rather than to wise choices and hard work and also think that their own circumstances are in no way due to their own actions and poor choices.

Now, when it comes to the charge of criminality, although I am sure that there are criminals in both parties and in all walks of life, since most crimes are committed by the poor, and the poor vote overwhelmingly democrat, I'll bet that democrats are somewhat over-represented in our prison population.

Gerry Clinchy
08-26-2012, 12:54 PM
Thomas Sowell on raising income tax rates:
http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell071212.php3


The Invincible Lie: Part II By Thomas Sowell

Nothing produces more of a sense of the futility of facts than seeing someone in the mass media repeating some notion that has been refuted innumerable times over the years.
On July 9th, on CNN's program "The Situation Room" with Wolf Blitzer, commentator Gloria Borger discussed President Obama's plan to continue the temporary extension of the tax rates established under the Bush administration — except for the top brackets, where Obama wanted the tax rates raised.
Ms. Borger said, "if you're going to lower the tax rates, where are you going to get the money from?"

First of all, nobody is talking about lowering the tax rates. They are talking about whether or not to continue the existing tax rates, which are set to expire after a temporary extension. And Obama is talking about raising the tax rate on higher income earners.
But when Ms. Borger asked, "where are you going to get the money from?" if you don't raise tax rates, that assumes an automatic correlation between tax rates and tax revenues, which is demonstrably false.

As far back as the 1920s, a huge cut in the highest income tax rate — from 73 percent to 24 percent — led to a huge increase in the amount of tax revenue collected by the federal government. Why? Because investors took their money out of tax shelters, where they were earning very modest rates of return, and put their money into the productive economy, where they could earn higher rates of return, now that those returns were not so heavily taxed.

This was the very reason why tax rates were cut in the first place — to get more revenue for the federal government. The same was true, decades later, during the John F. Kennedy administration. Similar reasons led to tax rate cuts during the Ronald Reagan administration and the George W. Bush administration.

All of these presidents — Democrat and Republican alike — made the same argument for tax rate reductions that had been made in the 1920s, and the results were similar as well. Yet the invincible lie continues to this day that those who oppose high tax rates on high incomes are doing so because they want to reduce the taxes paid by high income earners, in hopes that their increased prosperity will "trickle down" to others.

In reality, high income earners paid not only a larger total amount of taxes after the tax rate cuts of the 1920s but also a higher share of all the income taxes collected. It is a matter of record that anyone can check out with official government statistics.

This result was not peculiar to the 1920s. In 2006, the New York Times reported: "An unexpectedly steep rise in tax revenues from corporations and the wealthy is driving down the projected budget deficit this year."

Expectations are in the eye of the beholder. Tax cut proponents expected precisely the result from the Bush tax cuts that so surprised the New York Times. So did tax cut proponents in the John F. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan administrations.

If this concept has not yet trickled down to the New York Times or CNN's Gloria Borger, that is a commentary on the media commentators.

Ms. Borger may simply not know any better, but Barack Obama cannot use that excuse. When he was a candidate for president back in 2008, Charles Gibson of ABC News confronted him with the fact that there was no automatic correlation between the raising and lowering of tax rates and whether tax revenues moved up or down.

Obama admitted that. But he said that he was for raising tax rates on higher income earners anyway, in the name of "fairness." How higher tax rates that the government does not actually collect make any sense, whether from a fairness perspective or as a way of paying the government's bills, is another question. The point here is that Obama knew then that tax rates and tax revenues do not automatically move in the same direction.

In other words, he is lying when he talks as if tax rates and tax revenues move together. Ms. Borger and others in the media may or may not know that. So they are not necessarily lying. But they are failing to inform their audiences about the facts — and that allows Obama's lies to stand.

charly_t
08-26-2012, 02:26 PM
I am pretty sure this is an internet tough guy who loves to stir up a mess. However, if you were in front of him he would be meek and mild and afraid to speak.

I do love it when people make retarded comments from left field. They just help prove how blind americans have become. Oh, before I forget, it is still GW's fault 4 years later.

My opinion

Richard

I agree.

If it walks like a troll, if it talks like a troll etc.

Marvin S
08-26-2012, 02:31 PM
The arguments generally over when folks respond in this manner :p but I am going to respond so folks who have a clue are aware of where things come from :).


Bon, after reading a bunch of made up crap about teachers I could laugh it off as some crabby uneducated old man who had it out for a neighbor who was a teacher, but when he chose to piss on the graves of 300+ firefighters who died in 9/11 I chose to speak up. For the record I was never in the military, I'm the son of a Vietnam vetern who was also a school teacher, I myself am a former police officer and a part time fireman.

I always find it interesting that the other 2700 or so innocents are forgotten about when kudos are attempted. The loss of any life unnecessarily is not taken lightly, I just don't believe the FF's sacrifice is any greater than the innocents that were killed.

As for education I believe I'm capable of holding my own in that area.

Now for the educators - my source on the talent pool being the lower 25 %ile is Thomas Sowell originally with later back up from George Will. Most folks who are even slightly read know of them & their qualifications.

I spent 6 1/2 years as a twice elected member of a 3000 student School District. As Negotiations chair for 5 1/2 years of that time I became familiar with the educators Agenda. The two negotiators for the teachers were a little taken aback when we explained to them that advances in one area meant subtractions in others. One of those two negotiators, & also the most dogmatic of the two, is now Superintendent of the district & drags down around $300,000 per year for his time in the field. Anyone who believes that is not serious bread needs their head examined. As for the classroom teacher not making that, there is generally a reason folks don't advance, like lack of talent to affect the learning process on a large scale.

When our youngest went to CWU he had a GF that was taking a 3 hour credit course in making paper mache models. That's the kind of course that most with any intelligence would handle with a simple explanation.

Has anyone ever wondered why there is a shortage of Math & Science teachers in the K-12 system? Even at the Elementary-HS level it takes a certain level of stuff between your ears to comprehend what is being presented.

Now, mngundog, your posts have generally been at a level unworthy of response & you appparently enjoy pushing others around as long as they don't push back. You don't even post like someone I would care to have a conversation with.

I am a Korean Conflict vet but have never traded on that except to use the 36 months of the GI Bill for which the US has been repaid handsomely. When they put up a monument to the vets in this town, I bought a brick & only put the branch of service & time on it, no name. The Vietnam vets were the last draftees, IMO, those folks & the ones who came before them are a different kind of veteran than those who volunteer today & receive greater compensation.

Uncle Bill
08-26-2012, 02:33 PM
"If this concept has not yet trickled down to the New York Times or CNN's Gloria Borger, that is a commentary on the media commentators".

You've nailed it Dr. Sowell. Gloria Borger knows better, but she's just another Democrat shill...a White House sycophant that WANTS that continuing lie to stand and keep the 'poor and stupid' maintaining their class envy. It's all part of the Democrat attempt at dumbing down the plebes so they remain the sheeple this oligarchy needs to stay in power. Why else would they be against picture proof for voters? They want the SFN crowd to keep voting for the Democrats, so they stay dependant. No respectable American would continue to support that faction. It's not a Democrat party...it's a gang of special interest groupies. Most Democrats have come to realize that, with only the very ignorant and uninformed non-thinking individuals still hanging on to their brain-washed views.

Sadly, the MSP and it's gang of toady reporters, keep spewing the old line of the Democrat party is for the little guy, ignoring all the movie hacks and wall street millionaires giving gazillions so they maintain their crony favoritism.

UB

mngundog
08-26-2012, 04:02 PM
So in your opinion republicans spit on the graves of the FF's that died in 911????? That is nuts! I personally lost high school friends that were FDNY that day, one of which was also a member of our local vol fire dpt that I was also an EMT with prior to then. His body was never recovered.
Go back a few posts and read, I was talking about one person. Just so you know I have very conservative views, a couple of your posts seen to indicate I am from the left.

Andy Symons
08-26-2012, 04:18 PM
I didn't have time to read the whole thread, but in case no one mentioned it, your retirement savings are taxed at a different/lower rate than regular income. He is retired, hence his lower tax rate on retirement income.

Sambo, can you match his charitable contributions? If not, go fishing on another topic cause you can't win the one you started here!!

bobbyb
08-26-2012, 05:04 PM
Let's throw the elderly out in the streets along with the sick and eflicted so Mr. Romney doesn't have to pay any taxes. For your information, the upper-middle class is who takes it on the chin. They can't do all the things this wantabe can do, so quit giving him a pass.

Excuse please But isn't it Obama that has ALREADY cut 713 million from medicare to pay for Obamacare. ????

BobbyB
cajun

gmhr1
08-26-2012, 05:19 PM
This time around I would like an American with values and morals in the WH. If there are more jobs we dont need all the food stamps, unemployment etc. let people go to work. The poor will always be taken care of. Obamas way didnt work to well. If your worried about the elderly and sick being in the street you sure dont want Obamacare.

mngundog
08-26-2012, 08:35 PM
The arguments generally over when folks respond in this manner :p but I am going to respond so folks who have a clue are aware of where things come from :).



I always find it interesting that the other 2700 or so innocents are forgotten about when kudos are attempted. The loss of any life unnecessarily is not taken lightly, I just don't believe the FF's sacrifice is any greater than the innocents that were killed.

As for education I believe I'm capable of holding my own in that area.

Now for the educators - my source on the talent pool being the lower 25 %ile is Thomas Sowell originally with later back up from George Will. Most folks who are even slightly read know of them & their qualifications.

I spent 6 1/2 years as a twice elected member of a 3000 student School District. As Negotiations chair for 5 1/2 years of that time I became familiar with the educators Agenda. The two negotiators for the teachers were a little taken aback when we explained to them that advances in one area meant subtractions in others. One of those two negotiators, & also the most dogmatic of the two, is now Superintendent of the district & drags down around $300,000 per year for his time in the field. Anyone who believes that is not serious bread needs their head examined. As for the classroom teacher not making that, there is generally a reason folks don't advance, like lack of talent to affect the learning process on a large scale.

When our youngest went to CWU he had a GF that was taking a 3 hour credit course in making paper mache models. That's the kind of course that most with any intelligence would handle with a simple explanation.

Has anyone ever wondered why there is a shortage of Math & Science teachers in the K-12 system? Even at the Elementary-HS level it takes a certain level of stuff between your ears to comprehend what is being presented.

Now, mngundog, your posts have generally been at a level unworthy of response & you appparently enjoy pushing others around as long as they don't push back. You don't even post like someone I would care to have a conversation with.

I am a Korean Conflict vet but have never traded on that except to use the 36 months of the GI Bill for which the US has been repaid handsomely. When they put up a monument to the vets in this town, I bought a brick & only put the branch of service & time on it, no name. The Vietnam vets were the last draftees, IMO, those folks & the ones who came before them are a different kind of veteran than those who volunteer today & receive greater compensation.
This is the exact "MADE UP CRAP" I'm talking about, you use a Administrative salary $300,000 and use it as "teacher pay" to justify teacher's salary being to high and you go on to imply that the a teachers goal in life is to advance to an administrative position to increase their "teacher income", what a load of crap. You use a lie to run a profession into the ground.

ARay11
08-27-2012, 10:16 AM
QUOTE=Marvin S;1002233]If you don't believe $25 an hour worked is sufficient for a beginner with the qualifications most teachers arrive with then they want you on the school board :razz:.


Maybe you and I have different math skills. Here's how I see it:

$30,000 annual salary ...div by 44 weeks of work (our teachers are off for 8 weeks of summer vaca. yes, that sounds awesome, I only get 2 weeks paid, but, then again, you dont find me working for $30k/year either)..... = $681/week div by 40 hours/week (yes, they do work 40+ hours weekly) equals roughly $17 per hour. NOT $25/hr





6 figure incomes for engineers is a myth, those who arrive there are mostly worth it - what you are trying to defend is people not so smart trying to get paid like people who are :).

Given my husband's profession, I am fortunate enough to have met several engineers in many different fields.... structural and chemical... the bottom of the class entry level earners make around $80k, the top chemical engineer met 3 years ago lives on the beach next door to Paula Deen. I think he makes plenty (probably about 10x your administrators pay). I have yet to find this to be a myth of any kind. Are they worth it? Yes. No dispute.


It's been their show for years,they managed to screw it up royally, now the students suffer!!!!!!!! but they are still richly compensated.





[/QUOTE]

Who is richly compensated?

Be sure and certain you read this nice and slow so maybe you will comprehend what I am writing:

I do not advocate paying idiots to teach my children in school. Read carefully my first post on this subject: Some deserve more money, some deserve to be run completely out of the field.

When this country begins taking the education of our future teachers seriously... then and only then will those teachers be serious about educating our children.


When the brightest student in college has a choice of fields to enter.... ONE choice can make him a handsome salary (enough to repay his years of college tuition) the OTHER can earn him $30k/year. If he is truly the brightest ... which will he choose??????

gmhr1
08-27-2012, 10:32 AM
Maybe when kids can have two parents again who actually care about their kids instead of sending them to school and expecting the teacher to be mom dad therapist and teacher, our kids will care about getting an education. Parents do not care at all what the kid does but than blames the teacher when Johnny fails a class. Parents need to step up we expect to much from our teachers and they don not get paid enough for having to put up with the abuse they take each day. It starts at home

coachmo
08-27-2012, 11:40 AM
ARay11,
Actually, your calculations are not exactly in line with how most school teachers are paid. The vast majority of school districts work between approximately 180-190 schools days a year. This takes into account professional development days, record keeping days and actual days when students are present. Additionally, generally a teacher's contract is for a 7 hour work day x the # of days in the school year. Example: a teacher works 7 hours a day for 184 days. If you use the $30,000 salary/work days/hours then that would equate to $23.30 per hour. Some would make a little more and some a little less per hour based on the example.

ARay11
08-27-2012, 11:59 AM
Maybe when kids can have two parents again who actually care about their kids instead of sending them to school and expecting the teacher to be mom dad therapist and teacher, our kids will care about getting an education. Parents do not care at all what the kid does but than blames the teacher when Johnny fails a class. Parents need to step up we expect to much from our teachers and they don not get paid enough for having to put up with the abuse they take each day. It starts at home

I think this is where the private schools have such a huge advantage over public. Parents care (otherwise, they would save the money and just enroll in the free public school) and that care shows. Teachers care (they are compensated far better than public educators) and those teachers know exactly who their employers are.... and they are not school board members.... they are the parents writing the checks.

I know privatized education is NOT a possibility, please dont misunderstand.

Our area is one of the most impoverished in the state with over 75% of students qualifying for aid. It is difficult to see the K class teachers being responsible for teaching their students to brush their teeth, comb their hair, and, all too often, the school providing shoes for children who arrive wearing none. Yes, the kids arrive wearing no shoes. When they finally get their entire class ready for instruction, the morning is nearly gone. My question is always, "What about the kids that showed up fed, clean, rested, and ready for instruction?". Well, they sit and wait on the kids who didn't.

coachmo
08-27-2012, 12:03 PM
The majority of private school teachers do not make anywhere near the salary that public school teachers make. At least not in the SE region of the country.

Marvin S
08-27-2012, 12:13 PM
:razz:.


Maybe you and I have different math skills. Here's how I see it:

$30,000 annual salary ...div by 44 weeks of work (our teachers are off for 8 weeks of summer vaca. yes, that sounds awesome, I only get 2 weeks paid, but, then again, you dont find me working for $30k/year either)..... = $681/week div by 40 hours/week (yes, they do work 40+ hours weekly) equals roughly $17 per hour. NOT $25/hr -
It not a difference in math skills - it's a difference in information (do you know what your teachers contract states) - in WA the contractual year is 182 days, 7 hours/day, 5 max in the classroom - 10 days sick leave (or they accumulate till they retire, lump sum it at the highest pay & fatten the retirement check) & usually 3 personal days with no accountability - early dismissal to allow planning time is a given - around 10 days per year when it's all added up, which is a loss of face time with the student - add to that the lowering of class sizes & the taxpayer is being royally shafted - & don't give me the kids are different today with poor parenting - It existed in my day & some of them & us worked through that - If a teacher is worth the money they stimulate, if not they vegetate.

The neat thing is there are people with the necessary funding are seriously concerned about the dumbing down & are recognizing that emphasis on STEM will upgrade the US labor pool.





Given my husband's profession, I am fortunate enough to have met several engineers in many different fields.... structural and chemical... the bottom of the class entry level earners make around $80k, the top chemical engineer met 3 years ago lives on the beach next door to Paula Deen. I think he makes plenty (probably about 10x your administrators pay). I have yet to find this to be a myth of any kind. Are they worth it? Yes. No dispute.

Chem Engr's & EE's have always been at the top paywise of the engineering profession - If one wants to work in a refinery that's fine, many of us with the skills to have entered that field chose something requiring more diverse skills. Living next to someone you believe of note (who's Paula Deen?) is not real high on my list of things to do.



Who is richly compensated?

Be sure and certain you read this nice and slow so maybe you will comprehend what I am writing:

I do not advocate paying idiots to teach my children in school. Read carefully my first post on this subject: Some deserve more money, some deserve to be run completely out of the field.

When this country begins taking the education of our future teachers seriously... then and only then will those teachers be serious about educating our children.


When the brightest student in college has a choice of fields to enter.... ONE choice can make him a handsome salary (enough to repay his years of college tuition) the OTHER can earn him $30k/year.
If he is truly the brightest ... which will he choose??????




Actually I can read it fast as what you say indicates your knowledge of the subject is pretty shallow :confused:. What you advocate is that all teachers should receive the compensation of the brightest one, which is now how it's done :o

As for taking education seriously, for years it worked quite well the way it was - my generation placed a man on the moon. Is someone with a MA necessary to teach kindergarten? For years the country schools of SD cranked out some kids with the tools to compete in the world - All 3 of us in my 4th grade class at Jacobus School (now a granary) went on to get engineering degrees including one who got a Doctorate in Geological Engineering. - those teachers were graduates of a 30 week over 5 years normal school course.

Have a nice day - but don't run for the SB until you get better informed ;-)

coachmo
08-27-2012, 12:30 PM
Marvin,
At the risk of getting in the middle of the peeing contest between you and ARay I would like to point out that most states only allow a certain number of sick days to be "cashed in" at retirement and professional development is generally counted in addition to the days of students attending school. But the biggest question I would ask of you is where are class sizes becoming smaller? I do not know of any region in the country where teacher's classrooms are shrinking!!! I could be wrong on this but I don't think so.

ARay11
08-27-2012, 12:43 PM
[QUOTE=Marvin S;1002831]
It not a difference in math skills - it's a difference in information (do you know what your teachers contract states) - in WA the contractual year is 182 days, 7 hours/day, 5 max in the classroom - 10 days sick leave (or they accumulate till they retire, lump sum it at the highest pay & fatten the retirement check) & usually 3 personal days with no accountability - early dismissal to allow planning time is a given - around 10 days per year when it's all added up, which is a loss of face time with the student - add to that the lowering of class sizes & the taxpayer is being royally shafted - & don't give me the kids are different today with poor parenting - It existed in my day & some of them & us worked through that - If a teacher is worth the money they stimulate, if not they vegetate.

The neat thing is there are people with the necessary funding are seriously concerned about the dumbing down & are recognizing that emphasis on STEM will upgrade the US labor pool.


Ok, this is definitely a regional difference. Our teachers do not have the same contractural terms as those in WA.



Chem Engr's & EE's have always been at the top paywise of the engineering profession - If one wants to work in a refinery that's fine, many of us with the skills to have entered that field chose something requiring more diverse skills. Living next to someone you believe of note (who's Paula Deen?) is not real high on my list of things to do. (lol.... i thought everyone knew paula deen :-P





Actually I can read it fast as what you say indicates your knowledge of the subject is pretty shallow :confused:. What you advocate is that all teachers should receive the compensation of the brightest one, which is now how it's done :o


At no point did I say that and I wish you would respect my entire post, not pick and choose bits and pieces..... ONCE AGAIN....

Read carefully my first post on this subject: Some deserve more money, some deserve to be run completely out of the field.

for taking education seriously, for years it worked quite well the way it was - my generation placed a man on the moon. Is someone with a MA necessary to teach kindergarten? For years the country schools of SD cranked out some kids with the tools to compete in the world - All 3 of us in my 4th grade class at Jacobus School (now a granary) went on to get engineering degrees including one who got a Doctorate in Geological Engineering. - those teachers were graduates of a 30 week over 5 years normal school course.
With MUCH respect for your generation.... (that is NOT being said sarcastically).... Today's youth are NOTHING like those in your era , or mine for that matter. It has become an entitlement society but that is for another subject. Today's challenges for teachers are not yesterdays challenges. Your teachers did not need to put shoes on kids, or beg parents to treat a child for lice. You, and I would gather to say your class mates all arrived, healthy, well fed, bathed, rested, and ready for education. That simply is not the case here.

Oh... and as far as my information and knowledge of the subject goes........Oklahoma currently ranks 42nd in teacher's pay and benefits. Our school system cannot even afford a Spanish teacher. We are trying out an online Spanish class this year for the 5 kids who want to learn it. The "teacher" for that class is a volunteer who sits in with the kids in case they need something.

Maybe you can open your mind to the possibility that not all systems are WA.

The average teacher salary in Wetumka School District is $35,902.


Grade Level

Average

10th percentile

25th percentile

Median

75th percentile

90th percentile



Pre-school

$28,750

$17,100

$20,200

$30,340

$36,320

$40,080



Kindergarten

$36,840

$29,650

$33,210

$36,610

$40,640

$46,260



Elementary

$38,120

$30,270

$33,880

$37,850

$42,840

$48,070



Middle school

not available

not available

not available

not available

not available

not available



High school





$39,900





$30,120





$34,490





$39,000





$46,090





$51,160







there is no middle school data available because we do not have a middle school.

ARay11
08-27-2012, 12:45 PM
The majority of private school teachers do not make anywhere near the salary that public school teachers make. At least not in the SE region of the country.

sorry..... we only had experience with one private school and that was in MS. So, no, I do not know what the majority gets. I am very possibly way off base here but.... our kids attended for a little over 2 years. Was the best education I could imagine. Wish like crazy I could duplicate that school throughout the country. Teachers averaged $60k/year.

HPL
08-27-2012, 01:09 PM
marvin,
Also at the risk of getting in the middle, you actually do need to go back, slow down, and re-read A-Ray's post. He certainly is NOT advocating that all teachers get paid the same as the "best and brightest".

"Some deserve more money, some deserve to be run completely out of the field."

huntinman
08-27-2012, 01:20 PM
marvin,
Also at the risk of getting in the middle, you actually do need to go back, slow down, and re-read A-Ray's post. He certainly is NOT advocating that all teachers get paid the same as the "best and brightest".

"Some deserve more money, some deserve to be run completely out of the field."

He is she...

luvmylabs23139
08-27-2012, 01:46 PM
Marvin,
But the biggest question I would ask of you is where are class sizes becoming smaller? I do not know of any region in the country where teacher's classrooms are shrinking!!! I could be wrong on this but I don't think so.
I can only state that class sizes are much smaller in both the town in CT where I grew up and the area where I live now than they were back when I was in school and yet the results compared to other countries has gone way down. When I was in elementary school we always averaged 30 per class, now around here they have huge fits if there are more than 20 and the DUMS want 15. Go figure.

HPL
08-27-2012, 01:46 PM
He is she...

Man, I went back and re-read through the posts and I should have picked that up when he talked about his husband ;-)

ARay11
08-27-2012, 01:51 PM
Man, I went back and re-read through the posts and I should have picked that up when he talked about his husband ;-)

:-P omg...thank you for the giggles today! :-P

luvmylabs23139
08-27-2012, 02:00 PM
The whole preschool thing baffles me. Why are taxpayers paying for babysitting for 4 year olds to begin with???

Gerry Clinchy
08-27-2012, 02:26 PM
Romney DID pay income taxes for those years Reid accused him of not paying. Reported by, of all people, The NY Times.


Even though he has not released his returns from earlier years, the 2010 return sheds some light on those years.

That’s because Mr. Romney paid income tax to foreign countries, and as result claimed in 2010 a $129,697 foreign tax credit, which he used to offset taxes he owed in the United States. American taxpayers who claim the foreign tax credit are required to report their total foreign taxes paid and tax credits used for the previous 10 years. So that return contains foreign tax data going back to 2000.

The good news for Mr. Romney is the forms suggest that he paid at least some federal income tax every year, as he has said he did. He used the foreign tax credit every year to offset his taxes in the United States, and American taxpayers can’t use a tax credit if they owe no federal income tax. This casts even more doubt on the claim by the Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, attributed to an unnamed Bain Capital source, that Mr. Romney paid no income taxes during that time.
Not that there was any real credence given to Harry Reid's appalling accusations, but this ought to at least shame Reid into publicly admitting he was wrong.



Interesting that we haven't heard more about this revelation.

menmon
08-27-2012, 02:35 PM
The problem with education is not the teacher nor the curriculum, it is the sense of entitlement that the children in this country are growing up with. The recession might have done something to improve this but I don't think so.

Having said this, teachers need to get paid....that simple!

ARay11
08-27-2012, 02:36 PM
The whole preschool thing baffles me. Why are taxpayers paying for babysitting for 4 year olds to begin with???

It's that whole "competitive edge" thing... supposedly this helps us get em started early to advance farther and learn more....also supposedly this helps kids who's parents cannot afford preschool.
but, yea, it turns out to be just a taxpayer funded babysitter.

luvmylabs23139
08-27-2012, 02:53 PM
It's that whole "competitive edge" thing... supposedly this helps us get em started early to advance farther and learn more....also supposedly this helps kids who's parents cannot afford preschool.
but, yea, it turns out to be just a taxpayer funded babysitter.

In other words its a pile of dog crap forcing actual taxpayers to give their hard earned money to the leaches and do the parenting the leaches refuse to do. Well the dems can kiss my butt on this issue. If you bred it then it is your issue not mine.
GET RID OF TAXPAYER BABYSITTING!!!!!

Gerry Clinchy
08-27-2012, 03:01 PM
The problem with education is not the teacher nor the curriculum, it is the sense of entitlement that the children in this country are growing up with.

I wonder how that ever happened?

charly_t
08-27-2012, 03:06 PM
Great grandaughter started pre-K. She had been used to a nap most days and poor little thing does not get one in this school setting. She is worn out all the time now and life is not what it should be for a 4 year old child. This geat granny thinks people have gone crazy.

charly_t
08-27-2012, 03:09 PM
In other words its a pile of dog crap forcing actual taxpayers to give their hard earned money to the leaches and do the parenting the leaches refuse to do. Well the dems can kiss my butt on this issue. If you bred it then it is your issue not mine.
GET RID OF TAXPAYER BABYSITTING!!!!!

You got that right. Also it looks like government take-over of our children's minds.

luvmylabs23139
08-27-2012, 03:15 PM
Great grandaughter started pre-K. She had been used to a nap most days and poor little thing does not get one in this school setting. She is worn out all the time now and life is not what it should be for a 4 year old child. This geat granny thinks people have gone crazy.

Kinda funny. My mom always tells the story of asking me what I did in K the first day. Remember she came from the UK. She was shocked when I told her school was a joke. Yup, back then nap time, snack time and play time. Back then K was a half day so why was I taking a darn nap which I never did. I had the afternoon K.

luvmylabs23139
08-27-2012, 03:33 PM
Even more comical about the whole K thing which was as I said " play time, snack time, and nap time" in CT is that during that year we went to TX for 4 months for Dad's work. TX did not have K they started at 6 with grade one, no idea what they do now. I had to go to school so CT would let me go on to first grade. So I went to nursery school. We did more real school work in TX than in K in CT. We actually read a book etc.
Then the next year we went to TX again for 4 months, more NASA stuff. Anyway when I left CT, we were on book B, got to TX book A. Back to CT left TX on book E and CT was on book D.
They were not called that something about the little red book, blue book, whatever.
TX had their act together and we moved along while spinning our wheels in CT.

menmon
08-27-2012, 03:55 PM
It happen because parents give their kids everything without making them work for it. No consequences for bad behavior.

As for as the group you are referring to...which is the smallest category...its better to educate them than let them keep making uneducated mistakes

luvmylabs23139
08-27-2012, 04:02 PM
It happen because parents give their kids everything without making them work for it. No consequences for bad behavior.

As for as the group you are referring to...which is the smallest category...its better to educate them than let them keep making uneducated mistakes
Lets finally make the parents pay the price for their reckless actions. I'm darn sick of paying for it!!!!

luvmylabs23139
08-27-2012, 04:04 PM
Lets finally make the parents pay the price for their reckless actions. I'm darn sick of paying for it!!!!

Let me add, ater the taxpayer coughs up by force their hard earned money fot the first spawn, spay the bitch and shut the gravy train down.!

menmon
08-27-2012, 04:07 PM
You are right but aint going to happen...this why you need planned parenthood and like groups managing the problem.

HPL
08-27-2012, 04:26 PM
:-P omg...thank you for the giggles today! :-P


Glad I could be of service ma'am ;-)

HPL
08-27-2012, 04:33 PM
You got that right. Also it looks like government take-over of our children's minds.

It does concern me that many, if not most, teachers come from schools where a liberal social agenda is the norm and the more time children spend under their influence, the more likely the children are to grow up with very left leaning mindsets. That may be the biggest concern I have when it comes to the current educational system in the US.

luvmylabs23139
08-27-2012, 06:26 PM
You are right but aint going to happen...this why you need planned parenthood and like groups managing the problem.
NO this is why we need to get rid of the welfare king before the leeches totally overtake the actual taxpayers!
Then and only then we may be able to stop this abuse of the actual taxpayers. It is time for those that pay federal income taxes to stand up against this crap.
We need to shut down the gravy train!!

Marvin S
08-27-2012, 09:57 PM
"Some deserve more money, some deserve to be run completely out of the field."

I won't belabor this but that is the Yes - But comment made to soften the others sides position all too often :).




Read carefully my first post on this subject: Some deserve more money, some deserve to be run completely out of the field.



Grade Level

Average

10th percentile

25th percentile

Median

75th percentile

90th percentile



Pre-school

$28,750

$17,100

$20,200

$30,340

$36,320

$40,080



Kindergarten

$36,840

$29,650

$33,210

$36,610

$40,640

$46,260



Elementary

$38,120

$30,270

$33,880

$37,850

$42,840

$48,070



Middle school

not available

not available

not available

not available

not available

not available



High school





$39,900





$30,120





$34,490





$39,000





$46,090





$51,160







there is no middle school data available because we do not have a middle school.

I don't know about you but I would think that in Wetumka OK, Pop. 1427 or there abouts, & a ways off the beaten path on rte 9, 27 & 78 that those folks are the higher paid individuals in the town @ roughly $40 per hour - it is a part time job :)

I also take my home county newspaper from SD - the salaries you show would give everyone in that district, at the least, a 40% raise. I have had this discussion many times - including within my own family - I have cousins who avoid me like the plague as I am telling the truth & they are unable to refute it.

You can drink all the educator Kool Aid you want to - I have the facts & believe them to be correct & the more factual info you post refutes your point - you are paying for the average which means the good teachers carry the deadbeats :-P.

mngundog
08-27-2012, 10:13 PM
I won't belabor this but that is the Yes - But comment made to soften the others sides position all too often :).





I don't know about you but I would think that in Wetumka OK, Pop. 1427 or there abouts, & a ways off the beaten path on rte 9, 27 & 78 that those folks are the higher paid individuals in the town @ roughly $40 per hour - it is a part time job :)

I also take my home county newspaper from SD - the salaries you show would give everyone in that district, at the least, a 40% raise. I have had this discussion many times - including within my own family - I have cousins who avoid me like the plague as I am telling the truth & they are unable to refute it.

You can drink all the educator Kool Aid you want to - I have the facts & believe them to be correct & the more factual info you post refutes your point - you are paying for the average which means the good teachers carry the deadbeats :-P.
I love a person who compares a skilled professional salary, against entry level jobs and who believes the upper teacher salary is around $300K. No use arguing with a person who's spent the day drinking spiked Kool Aid.

achiro
08-27-2012, 10:48 PM
The problem with education is not the teacher nor the curriculum, it is the sense of entitlement that the children in this country are growing up with. The recession might have done something to improve this but I don't think so.

Having said this, teachers need to get paid....that simple!
Oh sweet Jesus. "Them darn video game playin kids" "GET OFF MY LAWN!".
The problem is with the system. If teachers pay rates were based on performance and the ones not up to par could be fired there would be a lot less problems with the system.

BrettG
08-27-2012, 11:05 PM
Oh sweet Jesus. "Them darn video game playin kids" "GET OFF MY LAWN!".
The problem is with the system. If teachers pay rates were based on performance and the ones not up to par could be fired there would be a lot less problems with the system.

I taught for 11 years and don't agree completely on this. The main reason is who will decide which teacher is doing the best job and how do you determine the quality of their job? I had 2 years at a junior high school where I taught all the "regular" 7th and 8th grade science classes. Our district at that time grouped the kids based on test scores, the groups were gifted, accelerated, and regular. I, basically, taught all the lower functioning kids in those 2 grades while another teacher had all the accelerated and gifted students. How could you determine which one of us did the better job?

mngundog
08-27-2012, 11:30 PM
Oh sweet Jesus. "Them darn video game playin kids" "GET OFF MY LAWN!".
The problem is with the system. If teachers pay rates were based on performance and the ones not up to par could be fired there would be a lot less problems with the system.
I have seen about 10 performance based models and to be very generous the were HIGHLY flawed, I have sat in a question/answer session where the guys who came up with the systems addressed questions about their systems and they sounded like the Obama health care plan, "we will know what is in it AFTER its passed". How does one grade a speech teacher against a science teacher, or a inner city teacher dealing with very troubled students against teacher's with much more favorable students, a special ed teacher with 5 students that can't read or write or speak English? How do you evaluate a wood shop, welding or auto shop teacher? These were all questions that were asked and and answers give were at best questionable, most questions could not be answered. Some plans pitted teacher against teacher for incentive pay, some even had the teachers themselves grading the other teachers. It is one of those things that is easier said than done. So I will put out a serious question to anyone who has been involved with an actual plan that they have seen implemented, what do you use to evaluate a speech, wood shop, or welding teacher to determine their pay?

achiro
08-27-2012, 11:45 PM
I taught for 11 years and don't agree completely on this. The main reason is who will decide which teacher is doing the best job and how do you determine the quality of their job? I had 2 years at a junior high school where I taught all the "regular" 7th and 8th grade science classes. Our district at that time grouped the kids based on test scores, the groups were gifted, accelerated, and regular. I, basically, taught all the lower functioning kids in those 2 grades while another teacher had all the accelerated and gifted students. How could you determine which one of us did the better job?


I have seen about 10 performance based models and to be very generous the were HIGHLY flawed, I have sat in a question/answer session where the guys who came up with the systems addressed questions about their systems and they sounded like the Obama health care plan, "we will know what is in it AFTER its passed". How does one grade a speech teacher against a science teacher, or a inner city teacher dealing with very troubled students against teacher's with much more favorable students, a special ed teacher with 5 students that can't read or write or speak English? How do you evaluate a wood shop, welding or auto shop teacher? These were all questions that were asked and and answers give were at best questionable, most questions could not be answered. Some plans pitted teacher against teacher for incentive pay, some even had the teachers themselves grading the other teachers. It is one of those things that is easier said than done. So I will put out a serious question to anyone who has been involved with an actual plan that they have seen implemented, what do you use to evaluate a speech, wood shop, or welding teacher to determine their pay?
These are the excuses used everytime this argument comes up. Charter schools prove time and time again that it can be done effectively.

mngundog
08-27-2012, 11:58 PM
These are the excuses used everytime this argument comes up. Charter schools prove time and time again that it can be done effectively.
Archiro, I seriously not trying to start a fight, these are real questions that no one (that I have seen) has come up with an answer to. MN has been trying different plans for years now, the last one I remember was Q-comp, and it hasn't addressed any of these issues because they are unable to. If you know of even one school that has implemented what you consider a fair incentive pay, I would love to read it.

Gerry Clinchy
08-28-2012, 08:17 AM
1) Have successful teachers come up with the plan. Seems simple, doesn't it? Not the administrators, or the academics. The good teachers.

2) Ask the kids. Kids seem to have an uncanny ability to pick out good teachers, I think. I remember that the good teachers I had over the years were not considered the "easy" teachers. They were respected and, actually, also well-liked. Kids wanted to be in their classes. Very much the same in college. They had a knack for requiring "obedience" from students in class, but also knowing how/when they could give more "space". Seems like many of the qualities one sees in effective leaders.

3) I don't think that testing the kids with standardized tests is so bad. Before you can become a rocket scientist you must learn about arithmetic! Not just 1 + 1 = 2, but how and why. Calculators cannot teach you that. But it is very handy to be able to learn the basics by rote ... the times tables, valences in chemistry, the theorems in geometry. I still think geometry is one of the best tools for learning how to "think" logically.

4) Put cameras in the classrooms to watch teacher/student dynamics. The cameras would be turned on all the time, but they would be "monitored" randomly. No teacher would know when their classroom was being observed ... so their performance would have to be uniform.

5) In truth, sometimes a good teacher was a poor student; a student who was "bored" n class or had to "work" at getting good or passing grades. Those teachers maybe understand how the students' minds are working, and can offer more creative ways of presenting course material.

There are many different kinds/styles of good teachers ... the results they get can show up in two ways: student performance on standardized testing and students' enthusiasm for the course material or learning process.

duckheads
08-28-2012, 09:57 AM
Unfortunately Gerry the Union won't allow most of your points unless you have an administration willing to fight the Union during their next contract negotiations.

Thanks to Mitch Daniels and his administration Indiana now has open enrollment which means your kids can go to any school as long as the school is not at capacity and you can provide transportation for them. This is the second year we are at a new school for all three kids. The school we left has the highest paid teachers in the county yet the school is on academic probation which is the lowest possible designation before the state takes the school over. The new school is an Academic Excellent school for the past five years which is the highest designation for schools. Both schools are K-12 schools all in one building. The difference is the school we left is all about the teachers. The new school is all about the kids. There is no comparison. At the old school the principle had to give the teacher notice a day ahead of time before he could observe in the classroom. That is in the contract. They couldn't fire a music teacher because he had tenure. The kids didn't like him as he was a very belligerent teacher. So what did they do, they laid him off which meant that they had to go two years before they could hire another music teacher. No music for two years or make the high school teacher teach K-12 music. Who suffers? The kids and of course the one music teacher if they went that route.

What is happening is a lot of the smarter kids are leaving for better schools. We didn't have 4 or 5 years for the school to turn around as our oldest daughter was going into the 8th grade. It makes more work for us as parents. We are lucky as my mother in law is able to pick the kids up after school. Not everyone has that option. But in the long run choice and competition are great ways to force schools to get better or they will be gone!

road kill
08-28-2012, 10:00 AM
Unfortunately Gerry the Union won't allow most of your points unless you have an administration willing to fight the Union during their next contract negotiations.

Thanks to Mitch Daniels and his administration Indiana now has open enrollment which means your kids can go to any school as long as the school is not at capacity and you can provide transportation for them. This is the second year we are at a new school for all three kids. The school we left has the highest paid teachers in the county yet the school is on academic probation which is the lowest possible designation before the state takes the school over. The new school is an Academic Excellent school for the past five years which is the highest designation for schools. Both schools are K-12 schools all in one building. The difference is the school we left is all about the teachers. The new school is all about the kids. There is no comparison. At the old school the principle had to give the teacher notice a day ahead of time before he could observe in the classroom. That is in the contract. They couldn't fire a music teacher because he had tenure. The kids didn't like him as he was a very belligerent teacher. So what did they do, they laid him off which meant that they had to go two years before they could hire another music teacher. No music for two years or make the high school teach K-12 music. Who suffers? The kids and of course the one music teacher if they went that route.

What is happening is a lot of the smarter kids are leaving for better schools. We didn't have 4 or 5 years for the school to turn around as our oldest daughter was going into the 8th grade. It makes more work for us as parents. We are lucky as my mother in law is able to pick the kids up after school. Not everyone has that option. But in the long run choice and competition are great ways to force schools to get better or they will be gone!

This is/was the problem in WI.

DA UNION ran the classrooms, not the Admin, not the teachers, not the kids.......Scott Walker has changed that!!!:D

achiro
08-28-2012, 10:07 AM
Archiro, I seriously not trying to start a fight, these are real questions that no one (that I have seen) has come up with an answer to. MN has been trying different plans for years now, the last one I remember was Q-comp, and it hasn't addressed any of these issues because they are unable to. If you know of even one school that has implemented what you consider a fair incentive pay, I would love to read it.
The problem really is that you first have to realize that there is no perfect system but you have to do what's best for the kids. If education were run more like a business where the boss(principle) had the power to give bonuses, raises, and fire employees it would make a huge difference. Yes, I realize the flaw in that is that some teachers will be unfairly targeted because of personality issues but they can go to another school just like people in the real world have to find new jobs. If a school isn't cutting it then the boss gets fired.

This is/was the problem in WI.

DA UNION ran the classrooms, not the Admin, not the teachers, not the kids.......Scott Walker has changed that!!!:D
And the unions are why a school can't be run like any other business.

Pete
08-28-2012, 06:57 PM
I'd vote for a tax dodger over a traitor any day.
PS not a Romney supporter
Pete

HPL
08-28-2012, 09:35 PM
We seem to have strayed a bit from the original post and to get back on track a bit, I would pose this question. Would those of you who are objecting to Romney availing himself of LEGAL means of reducing his tax burden (including donating very generously to charities) think more highly of him if he instead increased his contributions to the government and then reduced his charitable donations by an equal amount?

ARay11
08-29-2012, 09:47 AM
I won't belabor this but that is the Yes - But comment made to soften the others sides position all too often .

I think one thing you should know about me..... I don't much care to soften my position with any kind of a "Yes-But".... if there were a BUT in my position, I would say it. I don't pull punches. If you're a teacher, teach to the best of your abilities. If you're a substandard teacher....you need a different line of work. End of story. I am entrusting you with the future of America.... I cannot afford for you to screw it up.



I don't know about you but I would think that in Wetumka OK, Pop. 1427 or there abouts, & a ways off the beaten path on rte 9, 27 & 78 that those folks are the higher paid individuals in the town @ roughly $40 per hour - it is a part time job :)

You have really hit a hot button with me at this point, so this is the last I will post in this regard (good news... you will have the last word here).

You do not know me. You do not know my town. You can't even read a map properly to see that there is not a HWY 78 anywhere near me.
This town is at the intersections of Hwy 9 and Hwy 75. You can see all 4 corners of town from that stop sign. We have a phenomenal grocery store, a DairyQueen, and, on Thursday nights, All You Can Eat Catfish at Allie's Cafe. The whole town turns out for every school event (not just sports). We are built on Agriculture, Cattle, and Oil/Gas.

OUR teachers are not just teachers in this town. NONE of them take it as a part time gig. Here, it takes a village to raise a child. These teachers work over time and get nothing for it other than to see these kids succeed in school. Our Athletic Director is also the Mayor, the Alternative Ed Director/Teacher, and owns a local business. I have never been to ANY school event that he wasn't there. Oh... and his wife is the HS Principal. She never misses either. The Super and his wife are close friends. They know the problems within their system and tackle them daily. Every teacher is required to attend a certain number of school functions, events, and sporting events. Funny thing is....They show up to MORE than what is required! Even the cafeteria workers chaperone dances and put together "backpacks for kids" (our program that sends healthy foods home with kids who qualify). Every teacher has a 'stash' of clothing, food, and supplies for every kid.

Higher paid individuals in town? Hardly. $40/hour? Are you kidding me??? IF our teachers truly only worked the minimum hours required by the state, THEN for a few that could be true. HOWEVER.... you need to meet our Superintendent, Mr. Jaggs. Minimum state required hours are met by every teacher. And, so are Mr. Jaggs required hours. Which, completely negates your theory of $40/hour. Our district didn't even get their snow days last year because he was ticked off about "average" test scores. (you see, here, we want better than average). Our teachers may grumble a little .... but at the end of the day, they know they are doing what's right.

In a district that can barely afford to pay attention, much less attract new teachers, he fired 4 teachers at the end of the year. Oops... sorry... He "chose not to renew 4 contracts". Included in that group were.... The band director, a 6th grade teacher, and 2 HS teachers. We had no idea whether or not we could even attract a new band teacher. They dont exactly grow on trees.

And... FYI.... of those in this town who are employed (not retired).... the higher paid individuals are in oil/gas. DUHH. This is Oklahoma.


I also take my home county newspaper from SD - the salaries you show would give everyone in that district, at the least, a 40% raise. I have had this discussion many times - including within my own family - I have cousins who avoid me like the plague as I am telling the truth & they are unable to refute it.

You can drink all the educator Kool Aid you want to - I have the facts & believe them to be correct & the more factual info you post refutes your point - you are paying for the average which means the good teachers carry the deadbeats :-P.

You have zero facts about my town and couldnt even get it right reading it off of google. I do not disrespect you by pretending to "know facts" about where you are. I expect the same in return.

menmon
08-29-2012, 10:02 AM
I grew up in the same town...just by a different name. Thanks for sharing that. It is obvious people there care. It's different in these big cities where a lot of money and power are at stake. Teacher in these big cities need a union....if not, the system will suffer at the expense of bad management by the city officials.

I'm not saying that the union does not make mistakes, but they are looking out for the interest of the teachers, unlike in your town, the village is looking out for them.

Marvin S
08-29-2012, 12:09 PM
You have zero facts about my town and couldnt even get it right reading it off of google. I do not disrespect you by pretending to "know facts" about where you are. I expect the same in return.

Actually it's from a AAA map circa 1993 - my post SHR hwy 9, 27 & 75 according to the map - your little town sounds idyllic, but the issue is national not local - you shouldn't argue a national issue from a local perspective, but that's what you have done :).

The oil will eventually run out, what has your little town done to reinvent itself? When my little town's farmers began consolidating & the population decreased, transport improved, it's been a downhill slide.

As I wrote to the considered for ? Senator John Thune - the state needs to quit exporting it's talent (meaning the intelligent young people going elsewhere) & start adding value to the products it sells. You might ask your friends, Mr & Mrs Do-It-All if that thought ever entered their mind. Keep the young folks home, they are everyone's future.

You may answer this - Getting the last word is only something you attempt when you don't like the person & you do sound likable :).

mngundog
08-29-2012, 12:42 PM
You have zero facts about my town and couldnt even get it right reading it off of google. I do not disrespect you by pretending to "know facts" about where you are. I expect the same in return.
Ray, your town sounds very typical of rural MN, perhaps rural America. However their is no use arguing with someone getting his facts out of a 25 years old map or a 40 year old book and believes that you are living in the past.

cotts135
08-31-2012, 05:46 AM
Nothing I have seen, heard or read suggests to me that Romney is a tax cheat. What he is though is someone who uses The tax law available to him in the best way possible. With all his money I would hedge that in some way he has helped formulate the current tax laws in place and even if this is not true I know he didn't protest when the Capital gains tax was lowered. He is only acting in own best interest which we all do anyway. The system is what needs change

gmhr1
09-21-2012, 02:59 PM
Romney just released his 2011 taxes guess what he paid 1.9 million in taxes, he made 13.7 million mostly from investments. Over the last 20 years he has owed and paid State and federal taxes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/21/mitt-romney-tax-returns-released_n_1904242.html?ncid=webmail1

ARay11
09-21-2012, 03:01 PM
:eek: omg it just can't be!

menmon
09-21-2012, 03:37 PM
:eek: omg it just can't be!

So he lied to you...sounds like closer to 10%

gmhr1
09-21-2012, 03:45 PM
Harry reid is the liar and so is Obama he has yet to come clean about the terror attack that just took place under his watch. Romney said he paid taxes and he did if you dont like the tax laws work on getting them changed.

starjack
09-21-2012, 03:49 PM
So he lied to you...sounds like closer to 10%You better go back and do your math again 14.1% of 13.7 million is 1.92 million But we know you are so much smarter than everyone else that we should just believe anything you say.

menmon
09-21-2012, 03:51 PM
you better read the article...he padded it $4MM so he wouldn't be caught in a lie

ARay11
09-21-2012, 03:54 PM
http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4568651934270730&id=29a73c23ea6b8147aca58262987ddc1f

that's some great fuzzy math!

ARay11
09-21-2012, 03:55 PM
The most unusual aspect of Romney's tax filing for 2011, based on the summary provided by his trustee, is that he and his wife chose not to deduct all of their charitable contributions -- a decision that led to them paying a higher effective tax rate.
Romney in August declared that he had paid at least 13 percent in taxes over the past decade. Had he deducted all of his $4 million in charitable donations, his tax rate would have fallen below that figure.

starjack
09-21-2012, 04:05 PM
you better read the article...he padded it $4mm so he wouldn't be caught in a lieoh boy you are just not worth it.