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menmon
09-05-2012, 11:07 AM
I'm calling you out on this one. Millions of jobs the keystone pipeline will create and the president is standing in the way of job growth.

First if you have ever been around pipeline construction a hundred is reaching on how many it employess. Few guys running a trac-hoes digging a ditch and a few guys welding the pipe together and a few others rolling it in the hole. Now lets use Milton's theory...a few chinamen making the pipe...a foriegn freigher shipping it here and stevedore operating a few cranes unloading it here and a few truck drivers taking it to a coating plant and a few guys running the conveyer and forklifts and then loading and trucking to site. Oh yea a few surveyers and engineers were involved. Anyway few thousand jobs made. Now I'm glad that some congressman didn't get his way making sure the pipeline came through his district even though the risk was too high, so that he could get a few dollars to get elected again....Obama has our back not some rich guy wanting to get richer. Nothing wrong with making money just not at our expense.

M&K's Retrievers
09-05-2012, 11:47 AM
Who are you calling out? Who said it would create millions of jobs?

Any jobs it would create would be an improvement over what we are getting now with blown money on "shovel ready jobs".

Obama doesn't have our backs. He has his foot on our throats.

achiro
09-05-2012, 11:47 AM
Crack is a hellova drug.

gmhr1
09-05-2012, 11:49 AM
Its pretty sad if you think Obama has your back.

ARay11
09-05-2012, 11:58 AM
Call it out all you want. That pipeline would employ thousands.
The pipe is not made in china....
Welspun Tubular, a company located in Little Rock, Ark., has already manufactured about 800 km of pipe for the project. Welspun Tubular employs a little over 600 people.
The sheer number of inspectors alone required to inspect the installation is around 500. For every one inspector, there are 3 welders.
Still lots of others not mentioned.... I am sure others here could comment on fields they have experience with which could be directly affected by the Keyston Pipeline.

achiro
09-05-2012, 12:16 PM
Call it out all you want. That pipeline would employ thousands.
The pipe is not made in china....
Welspun Tubular, a company located in Little Rock, Ark., has already manufactured about 800 km of pipe for the project. Welspun Tubular employs a little over 600 people.
The sheer number of inspectors alone required to inspect the installation is around 500. For every one inspector, there are 3 welders.
Still lots of others not mentioned.... I am sure others here could comment on fields they have experience with which could be directly affected by the Keyston Pipeline.
Heavy equipment operators(dozers, backhoe, etc)
Drivers to deliver equipment
general labor(shovels)
Surveyors
Timber removal
and so on and so forth.
Not to mention the money added to the local economies in hotel, food, bars, landowner leases, and many more that end up adding jobs in those areas.
There is a reason that Oklahomas economy has barely taken a hit.

menmon
09-05-2012, 12:22 PM
I always said a $20 in a G-string stimulates the economy. It was not an issue of building the pipeline...it was an issue of doing it right where it does not cause unitended consequences.

ARay11
09-05-2012, 12:22 PM
Heavy equipment operators(dozers, backhoe, etc)
Drivers to deliver equipment
general labor(shovels)
Surveyors
Timber removal
and so on and so forth.
Not to mention the money added to the local economies in hotel, food, bars, landowner leases, and many more that end up adding jobs in those areas.
There is a reason that Oklahomas economy has barely taken a hit. That's a biggie... forgot each welder and inspector is paid for their travel and expenses. Hotels in Cushing and Enid are grabbing $150/night right now... and thats not for the Westin lol :-P

ARay11
09-05-2012, 12:24 PM
I always said a $20 in a G-string stimulates the economy. It was not an issue of building the pipeline...it was an issue of doing it right where it does not cause unitended consequences.

no no no... you cant backtrack on this .... you said.... "I'm calling you out on this one. Millions of jobs the keystone pipeline will create and the president is standing in the way of job growth" and "First if you have ever been around pipeline construction a hundred is reaching on how many it employess"

We are simply calling YOU out on the fact that a few hundred is DEAD WRONG.

duckheads
09-05-2012, 12:26 PM
Obamanomics will be shovel ready on Nov. 6th and there are a lot of people ready to make it happen!!!

M&K's Retrievers
09-05-2012, 01:08 PM
Here's hoping Obama will be looking for a job on the pipeline next January. :razz:

huntinman
09-05-2012, 01:10 PM
I'm calling you out on this one. Millions of jobs the keystone pipeline will create and the president is standing in the way of job growth.

First if you have ever been around pipeline construction a hundred is reaching on how many it employess. Few guys running a trac-hoes digging a ditch and a few guys welding the pipe together and a few others rolling it in the hole. Now lets use Milton's theory...a few chinamen making the pipe...a foriegn freigher shipping it here and stevedore operating a few cranes unloading it here and a few truck drivers taking it to a coating plant and a few guys running the conveyer and forklifts and then loading and trucking to site. Oh yea a few surveyers and engineers were involved. Anyway few thousand jobs made. Now I'm glad that some congressman didn't get his way making sure the pipeline came through his district even though the risk was too high, so that he could get a few dollars to get elected again....Obama has our back not some rich guy wanting to get richer. Nothing wrong with making money just not at our expense.

That's about as politically incorrect as your old handle. For a lib, you sure are a little harsh...

menmon
09-06-2012, 05:14 PM
That's about as politically incorrect as your old handle. For a lib, you sure are a little harsh...

No what is politically incorrect is using them to make our products knowing that they work in slave conditions for slave wages.

It's out of sight and out of mind.

huntinman
09-06-2012, 05:21 PM
No what is politically incorrect is using them to make our products knowing that they work in slave conditions for slave wages.

It's out of sight and out of mind.

Slave wages to you might be a weeks worth or a month worth to someone over there. They are probably damn glad to have it. It's none of your business what someone else wants to work for. Typical lib trying to run someone elses life...

ARay11
09-06-2012, 05:35 PM
Slave wages to you might be a weeks worth or a month worth to someone over there. They are probably damn glad to have it. It's none of your business what someone else wants to work for. Typical lib trying to run someone elses life...

For every American who says, "I will not dig that ditch for those dollars" there are 100 immigrants fighting over his shovel.

I'm not saying it's right or it's wrong... It is reality.

ARay11
09-06-2012, 05:36 PM
No what is politically incorrect is using them to make our products knowing that they work in slave conditions for slave wages.

It's out of sight and out of mind.

Chinese sweat shops are not building that pipe. Rednecks in Arkansas are.

john fallon
09-06-2012, 09:08 PM
No what is politically incorrect is using them to make our products knowing that they work in slave conditions for slave wages.It's out of sight and out of mind.

China is on the cutting edge of technology in the steel and steel products industries; it is doubtful that if made in china, a human hand would touch this pipe until it was "out the door" of the manufacturing facility.

As for creating NEW jobs here at home.... the bulk of the skilled people who do this kind of work*(Pipeliners}, and will will work on this project will not be new hires, so I see it to be a couple Hundred tops.

* http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=49&articleid=20110922_49_E3_CUTLIN458454



john

Gunners Up
09-06-2012, 09:53 PM
John,

You need to read the source you site. Quote from the Tulsa World:

"The Keystone XL should employ more than 100,000 workers in various fields and create up to $585 million in state and local tax revenues."

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=49&articleid=20110922_49_E3_CUTLIN458454

john fallon
09-06-2012, 10:22 PM
John,

You need to read the source you site. Quote from the Tulsa World:

"The Keystone XL should employ more than 100,000 workers in various fields and create up to $585 million in state and local tax revenues."

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/business/article.aspx?subjectid=49&articleid=20110922_49_E3_CUTLIN458454

I read that QUOTE of Randy Miller .... Not so says a recent study.

Here, you should read this. The pipe is from India, Welspun Corp Limited, and from Evraz in Russia and the few jobs it creates are mostly temporary............

http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/globallaborinstitute/research/upload/GLI_KeystoneXL_Reportpdf.pdf

john

achiro
09-06-2012, 10:53 PM
I read that QUOTE of Randy Miller .... Not so says a recent study.

Here, you should read this. The pipe is from India, Welspun Corp Limited, and from Evraz in Russia and the few jobs it creates are mostly temporary............

http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/globallaborinstitute/research/upload/GLI_KeystoneXL_Reportpdf.pdf

john
I'm not sure that I understand your point here John. 5000 jobs and 3+billion added to the economy(even by this Cornell studies conservative numbers) is a bad thing?
I don't know about where some bookworm from Cornell gets his info but I will tell you this. Oil,gas, and pipeline are all alive and well in this area. Jobs may be temporary but they pay so well that there are a ton of people leaving their permanent careers to take those jobs. Our local PD is way low on bodies right now because guys keep leaving the dept. to go to work in the fields. We've seen a new Hampton Inn, Holiday Inn, and a Marriott all built in the last two years and even added to all the other hotels, rooms are still hard to find. Our housing prices never dropped and have actually been on the rise. Two new grade schools have opened this year, and three new shopping centers are currently in the works(including a completly revamped mall with a new movie theater).

Vammy
09-06-2012, 11:09 PM
I read that QUOTE of Randy Miller .... Not so says a recent study.

Here, you should read this. The pipe is from India, Welspun Corp Limited, and from Evraz in Russia and the few jobs it creates are mostly temporary............

http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/globallaborinstitute/research/upload/GLI_KeystoneXL_Reportpdf.pdf

john

John, with all due respect, that report is full of holes...and does not represent the facts.

1. What that report does not discuss is the number of jobs that will be created in this country full time, making pumps, valves, associated hardware, transmission systems, and flow controls. These products will be redundant at each pumping station, and will require routine maintenance and replacement.

Yes, I work in the oil industry. My company, based in Tulsa, manufactures a number of high pressure, high temperature products for the O&G exploration and well completion. Every piece of equipment that comes off our manufacturing floor is made in the USA, including the forged steel castings used for this equipment. No, my company will not directly benefit from Keystone XL...except where we (the US) will now have greater capacity to transport oil from North Dakota (see point 5 below), which should mean more drilling...which is where we sell our products.

2. Yes, the number of construction workers, surveyors, and engineers building the pipeline will ultimately not be required. They will be replaced by the maintenance personnel, other inspectors, and pump station operators. Those are long term, American jobs.


3. I take real issue with the report's stance that pipelines result in oilspills; the report cited 2010 as an example. Well, 2010 was not a good year...can anyone say Deepwater Horizon?

4. The report makes a statement that the pipeline "diverts these tar sand oils from refineries in the mindwest...". Yes, it does. Anyone want to know why? The refineries in the upper midwest cannot handle heavy bituminous oil...it has to go to Texas, where we have established refineries that can handle this type of oil.

5. Lastly, everyone seems to forget another little oilfield called Bakken Formation. Right now, we cannot transport the oil coming from this field at the rate we could actually produce it...Keystone XL will be able to transport Bakken shale oil to additional refineries in OK and TX.


For some reason, I cannot link one of the better energy sites on the web; go to PennEnergy.com, and once on their site, search for "keystone pipline XL". There is a wealth of information there, including real and actual jobs this pipeline will create.

The pipeline is a good thing for America. We need the oil, we need the jobs. We need the pipeline.

Gunners Up
09-06-2012, 11:28 PM
John,

Right now in Tulsa there are large billboards along every major highway in town with "For Hire" ads by the John Zinc Corp. for welders. John Zinc is a large oil & gas field supplier based here in Tulsa. This current demand for welders probably has nothing to do with the Keystone Project but a mfg. having to take out "Now Hiring" billboards leads me to believe there is a shortage of welders. The local Vo-Tech is constantly advertising their welding courses leading me to believe there is a large demand for welders. It seems to me if the Keystone project is approved then the demand for welders would increase even more and the Vo-Techs would have to gin out even more welders. All newly minted, highly skilled laborers, who would be making a good living and paying taxes. That's a good thing right? Not trying to pick a fight but just giving you the lay of the land here in Oklahoma.

RD

huntinman
09-06-2012, 11:34 PM
John,

Right now in Tulsa there are large billboards along every major highway in town with "For Hire" ads by the John Zinc Corp. for welders. John Zinc is a large oil & gas field supplier based here in Tulsa. This current demand for welders probably has nothing to do with the Keystone Project but a mfg. having to take out "Now Hiring" billboards leads me to believe there is a shortage of welders. The local Vo-Tech is constantly advertising their welding courses leading me to believe there is a large demand for welders. It seems to me if the Keystone project is approved then the demand for welders would increase even more and the Vo-Techs would have to gin out even more welders. All newly minted, highly skilled laborers, who would be making a good living and paying taxes. That's a good thing right? Not trying to pick a fight but just giving you the lay of the land here in Oklahoma.

RD

Same in TX, AR, ND, SD, LA, AK and everwhere else the oil & gas industry is humming along in spite of the current administration.

JDogger
09-06-2012, 11:39 PM
John,

Right now in Tulsa there are large billboards along every major highway in town with "For Hire" ads by the John Zinc Corp. for welders. John Zinc is a large oil & gas field supplier based here in Tulsa. This current demand for welders probably has nothing to do with the Keystone Project but a mfg. having to take out "Now Hiring" billboards leads me to believe there is a shortage of welders. The local Vo-Tech is constantly advertising their welding courses leading me to believe there is a large demand for welders. It seems to me if the Keystone project is approved then the demand for welders would increase even more and the Vo-Techs would have to gin out even more welders. All newly minted, highly skilled laborers, who would be making a good living and paying taxes. That's a good thing right? Not trying to pick a fight but just giving you the lay of the land here in Oklahoma.

RD
Just curious RD. Where are the metal assemblys welded for GU? JD

john fallon
09-07-2012, 12:08 AM
John, with all due respect, that report is full of holes...and does not represent the facts.

1. What that report does not discuss is the number of jobs that will be created in this country full time, making pumps, valves, associated hardware, transmission systems, and flow controls. These products will be redundant at each pumping station, and will require routine maintenance and replacement.

Yes, I work in the oil industry. My company, based in Tulsa, manufactures a number of high pressure, high temperature products for the O&G exploration and well completion. Every piece of equipment that comes off our manufacturing floor is made in the USA, including the forged steel castings used for this equipment. No, my company will not directly benefit from Keystone XL...except where we (the US) will now have greater capacity to transport oil from North Dakota (see point 5 below), which should mean more drilling...which is where we sell our products.

2. Yes, the number of construction workers, surveyors, and engineers building the pipeline will ultimately not be required. They will be replaced by the maintenance personnel, other inspectors, and pump station operators. Those are long term, American jobs.


3. I take real issue with the report's stance that pipelines result in oilspills; the report cited 2010 as an example. Well, 2010 was not a good year...can anyone say Deepwater Horizon?

4. The report makes a statement that the pipeline "diverts these tar sand oils from refineries in the mindwest...". Yes, it does. Anyone want to know why? The refineries in the upper midwest cannot handle heavy bituminous oil...it has to go to Texas, where we have established refineries that can handle this type of oil.

5. Lastly, everyone seems to forget another little oilfield called Bakken Formation. Right now, we cannot transport the oil coming from this field at the rate we could actually produce it...Keystone XL will be able to transport Bakken shale oil to additional refineries in OK and TX.


For some reason, I cannot link one of the better energy sites on the web; go to PennEnergy.com, and once on their site, search for "keystone pipline XL". There is a wealth of information there, including real and actual jobs this pipeline will create.

The pipeline is a good thing for America. We need the oil, we need the jobs. We need the pipeline.

I don't have a problem with oil pipelines per se or with KXL in particular: What I do have a problem with is someone trying to piss in my boot and tell me that it is raining..... putting the other merits and the perceived problems of the KXL pipeline aside for another time.... someone saying that this pipeline will create hundreds of thousands of jobs,when in fact it is going to "create" a minuscule percentage of that number, is doing just that.

john

HPL
09-07-2012, 12:53 AM
Seems to me that at least part of this argument is around the fact that the Keystone Pipeline jobs will not be "permanent", but in several parts of the economy that is the nature of the industry. Oil field workers often go from one producer to another wherever the jobs are, much like the skilled craftsmen that work in the construction industry.

dback
09-07-2012, 07:59 AM
No what is politically incorrect is using them to make our products knowing that they work in slave conditions for slave wages.


Just curious RD. Where are the metal assemblys welded for GU? JD


I don't know where GU has the welding done......nor do I care. These two statements/lines of thought highlight the shortcomings of our educational system in the US. The argument that "Politics" has anything to do with manufacturing moving 'offshore' is absurd .... it is every "soccer" mom or "garage journal" commando, armed with the weekly 'ads' headed off to purchase anything from 'tec' screws to washing machines that has forced this transition. When a housewife will spend the entire day and $20.00 in fuel to save $12.00 on her weekly purchases.....industry takes note. Every Union contract, every government imposed benefit, every limitation imposed on industry of any kind (good or bad) necessitates the moves for sheer survival of the business whether stocks are traded on the DOW or privately owned. Buying habits.....not 'politics'. "WE" have been the driving force for this shift. The major difference between Reps & Dems is that Dems (a major player in the elements of this shift) now want to make it "political". Class Envy is an easy play when your only goal is to win votes.......it solves no problems, indeed creates more, but what the heck.....just win at all cost.....right?

john fallon
09-07-2012, 08:13 AM
Seems to me that at least part of this argument is around the fact that the Keystone Pipeline jobs will not be "permanent", but in several parts of the economy that is the nature of the industry. Oil field workers often go from one producer to another wherever the jobs are, much like the skilled craftsmen that work in the construction industry.

Semantics;

I have a job, I work as a consultant in construction doing heavy rigging and structural repairs.Working year round I move from project to project.... did every project create a new job?

But even for those who insist that the answer is yes......Speaking specifically about the KLX build, the number jobs in man years to build, divided by the 2 or three year duration of the project, and further diluted by being spread out over the 10 or 15 states that the 7 sections of the line encompasses, makes KXL's impact on creating "new jobs" hardly worth mentioning as the cornerstone for selling this project in in an economy that needs "to create in excess of 90,000 jobs a month to keep up with a growing labor force, and needs to create an additional 8 million jobs to get unemployment down to where it was at the onset of the recession".

john

Gunners Up
09-07-2012, 10:54 AM
Just curious RD. Where are the metal assemblys welded for GU? JD

J Dogger,

Gunners Up components are mfg. here in Tulsa and overseas. Final assembly is done here in Tulsa, much like a Ford or Chevy Pickup has parts from around the world but assembled here. But I understand the gist of your question and I know the snide point your trying to make. To answer your question more fully, it would be best to not focus your attention entirely on Gunners Up. Over the last 13 years my business partner and I have sweated and toiled to create 5 different companies all of which are still in operation today. From the 5 companies, we have created and sustained over 60 jobs here in Tulsa. A major portion of these jobs are mfg. positions for the home building industry (Wood Mill) and the auto body repair industry. The auto body jobs are actually honest to goodness "Green Jobs" where we recycle & re-mfg. damaged auto bumpers (Normally these are thrown away into a landfill) and resell these back into the auto market. So not only are we truly re-cycling we are employing skilled auto body techs to repair these bumpers. A WIN/WIN in my opinion.

So having understood the underlying meaning of your question and having answered it in full, let me ask you this? How many US JOBS have you created lately?

Trying to do my part in Tulsa regards,

RD

Vammy
09-07-2012, 11:46 AM
I don't have a problem with oil pipelines per se or with KXL in particular: What I do have a problem with is someone trying to piss in my boot and tell me that it is raining..... putting the other merits and the perceived problems of the KXL pipeline aside for another time.... someone saying that this pipeline will create hundreds of thousands of jobs,when in fact it is going to "create" a minuscule percentage of that number, is doing just that.

john

Understood, and I do get the point of what you're saying. While I have not actively followed every jobs report on the pipeline, I have never seen anything that suggested "100"s of thousands" specific to the construction of the pipeline itself. I do recall an article stating "10's of thousands of direct jobs" that was quickly recanted/revised by TransCanada with a more realistic number...closer to 10,000, not 10's of thousands.

Frankly, reporting of the entire pipeline from pro's, cons, jobs, etc, has been biased towards whichever reporter/group view they're promoting. Makes me wonder if someone grabbed the "10's of thousands of jobs" statement from somewhere without the context that ancillary and indirect jobs supporting the pipeline would be near this total. Achiro makes the point best: hotels, restaraunts, auto repair shops, all the businesses that make up a town/city would benefit. Try getting a hotel room in Williston, North Dakota these days...

Make no mistake: not every town on the route would see these benefits. Certain places will be pipeline headquarters/substations, and see an influx of people...not at the rate of Williston, or Vernal UT, or Rock Springs WY, but I would suggest those towns will welcome the add-on jobs with open arms....

menmon
09-07-2012, 11:53 AM
There are plenty of pipelines currently being built all over. I bank a pipe coating company that that is on fire. 1/2 of the welding will be done by OilStates or LaBarge. Its called double jointing then it gets coated and truck to be welded in the field...this lowers the risk of bad welds.

There are not enough welders and the folks doing these jobs are hispanic. I know because I tour the fab shops here in Houston. They are paying wages as high as $32 per hour and that is high for Texas.

My neighbor works for a fab shop and he said that they told him that they were going to 12 hr shifts 6 days a week and he told them he was only good for 50 hours, but then said the hispanics would never leave if they would let them.

There are lots of jobs...folks just don't know how to do them or are to good to do them.

huntinman
09-07-2012, 12:19 PM
There are plenty of pipelines currently being built all over. I bank a pipe coating company that that is on fire. 1/2 of the welding will be done by OilStates or LaBarge. Its called double jointing then it gets coated and truck to be welded in the field...this lowers the risk of bad welds.

There are not enough welders and the folks doing these jobs are hispanic. I know because I tour the fab shops here in Houston. They are paying wages as high as $32 per hour and that is high for Texas.

My neighbor works for a fab shop and he said that they told him that they were going to 12 hr shifts 6 days a week and he told them he was only good for 50 hours, but then said the hispanics would never leave if they would let them.

There are lots of jobs...folks just don't know how to do them or are to good to do them.

Just think how many more stories like that there would be if we would get Obama out of office...

Marvin S
09-07-2012, 12:40 PM
Just think how many more stories like that there would be if we would get Obama out of office...

& get rid of the minimum wage - there are just too many people out there that don't know how to work that need the training to learn to be productive. Think Child Labor Laws - good intentions, bad result :(

menmon
09-07-2012, 12:46 PM
Thats what we need...children getting smashed by pipe:rolleyes:

Marvin S
09-07-2012, 01:09 PM
Thats what we need...children getting smashed by pipe:rolleyes:

The level of stupidity in that statement reaches new heights, even for you.

john fallon
09-07-2012, 01:18 PM
I'm calling you out on this one. Millions of jobs the keystone pipeline will create and the president is standing in the way of job growth.
First if you have ever been around pipeline construction a hundred is reaching on how many it employess. Few guys running a trac-hoes digging a ditch and a few guys welding the pipe together and a few others rolling it in the hole. Now lets use Milton's theory...a few chinamen making the pipe...a foriegn freigher shipping it here and stevedore operating a few cranes unloading it here and a few truck drivers taking it to a coating plant and a few guys running the conveyer and forklifts and then loading and trucking to site. Oh yea a few surveyers and engineers were involved. Anyway few thousand jobs made. Now I'm glad that some congressman didn't get his way making sure the pipeline came through his district even though the risk was too high, so that he could get a few dollars to get elected again....Obama has our back not some rich guy wanting to get richer. Nothing wrong with making money just not at our expense.


Who made this statement and is being "called out" here?

john

Raymond Little
09-07-2012, 02:15 PM
Who made this statement and is being "called out" here?

john

Bad batch of Meth.;)

charly_t
09-07-2012, 03:14 PM
Thats what we need...children getting smashed by pipe:rolleyes:

Uuummm, no one said children would be hired for pipe jobs. The jobs for kids would be simple jobs suited to kids. However............some children would have more smarts than some adults !!!!!!!

Down East Labs 217
09-07-2012, 03:22 PM
Thats what we need...children getting smashed by pipe:rolleyes:

Mikey

Is it possible for you to once, just once, not shoot to the extreme far left and join in a civil debate without wise A$$ comments.

Richard

menmon
09-07-2012, 03:23 PM
Uuummm, no one said children would be hired for pipe jobs. The jobs for kids would be simple jobs suited to kids. However............some children would have more smarts than some adults !!!!!!!

So now you want to do away with the child labor laws. You have lost your mine. Lets bust the unions and put kids back in the sweat shops. I know their had to some agenda for doing away with the unions...didn't think it was this extreme.

coachmo
09-07-2012, 03:47 PM
Maybe you can hire some of those children to tutor you with your grammar.

starjack
09-07-2012, 03:50 PM
:confused:
So now you want to do away with the child labor laws. You have lost your mine. Lets bust the unions and put kids back in the sweat shops. I know their had to some agenda for doing away with the unions...didn't think it was this extreme.Your intelligence amazes me:confused::confused:

charly_t
09-07-2012, 03:56 PM
So now you want to do away with the child labor laws. You have lost your mine. Lets bust the unions and put kids back in the sweat shops. I know their had to some agenda for doing away with the unions...didn't think it was this extreme.


Uuummmm, never knew that I had a mine. My memory must be worse tnan I thought. I firmly believe that children need to learn to work at an early age. Sweat shops "NO" but some learning experience is very helpful to a well rounded adult with knowledge. It is a very important part of education. Children not learning to work is part of the problem with people in the USA. Do you have to take the ball and run the wrong way every time ?

menmon
09-07-2012, 04:13 PM
Uuummmm, never knew that I had a mine. My memory must be worse tnan I thought. I firmly believe that children need to learn to work at an early age. Sweat shops "NO" but some learning experience is very helpful to a well rounded adult with knowledge. It is a very important part of education. Children not learning to work is part of the problem with people in the USA. Do you have to take the ball and run the wrong way every time ?

I agree with that but not doing away with labor laws. It takes parent effort...not punt them to some employer to be a parent for you.

huntinman
09-07-2012, 04:21 PM
I agree with that but not doing away with labor laws. It takes parent effort...not punt them to some employer to be a parent for you.

Why not, you libs like the schools to be the parents?

ARay11
09-07-2012, 06:29 PM
Why not, you libs like the schools to be the parents?

:razz: LOL!!! omg, are you here all week? :razz:
that's hilarious...sorry .... hallarryus.

charly_t
09-07-2012, 07:37 PM
I agree with that but not doing away with labor laws. It takes parent effort...not punt them to some employer to be a parent for you.

Just a quick work history..........family farm ( dob 1937 ), by age 8 stripped cows for sis who sometimes did all the milking by hand ( she was a little over 3 years older than me ). Parents in the field ALL day. Sis and I did other farm chores/work. 7th and 8th grade I helped an Aunt with her little cafe in a small town. Then the Aunt moved to a big city to take a job. I moved with her. I was not old enough to work according to state law there. I spent 90 % or more of my free time in the little public library near the apartment ( I could have been working ! ). Next few years I worked in the school cafeteria. I was not worked to death at all any of that time. Most of it was good learning experience. I must say that the manager of that cafeteria was a good but stern boss. I liked her and that first job for wages was good for me. Bosses can be a very good learning experience just like working for your own parents. There are good and bad in both instances.
Kids who have came from homes where they never had to work are usually spoiled and make very poor workers. Stepping down off of soap box now.........

JDogger
09-07-2012, 09:21 PM
J Dogger,

Gunners Up components are mfg. here in Tulsa and overseas. Final assembly is done here in Tulsa, much like a Ford or Chevy Pickup has parts from around the world but assembled here. But I understand the gist of your question and I know the snide point your trying to make. To answer your question more fully, it would be best to not focus your attention entirely on Gunners Up. Over the last 13 years my business partner and I have sweated and toiled to create 5 different companies all of which are still in operation today. From the 5 companies, we have created and sustained over 60 jobs here in Tulsa. A major portion of these jobs are mfg. positions for the home building industry (Wood Mill) and the auto body repair industry. The auto body jobs are actually honest to goodness "Green Jobs" where we recycle & re-mfg. damaged auto bumpers (Normally these are thrown away into a landfill) and resell these back into the auto market. So not only are we truly re-cycling we are employing skilled auto body techs to repair these bumpers. A WIN/WIN in my opinion.

So having understood the underlying meaning of your question and having answered it in full, let me ask you this? How many US JOBS have you created lately?

Trying to do my part in Tulsa regards,

RD
Relax RD. I own your products and like them. It was just a simple question. JD

menmon
09-08-2012, 10:21 AM
Just a quick work history..........family farm ( dob 1937 ), by age 8 stripped cows for sis who sometimes did all the milking by hand ( she was a little over 3 years older than me ). Parents in the field ALL day. Sis and I did other farm chores/work. 7th and 8th grade I helped an Aunt with her little cafe in a small town. Then the Aunt moved to a big city to take a job. I moved with her. I was not old enough to work according to state law there. I spent 90 % or more of my free time in the little public library near the apartment ( I could have been working ! ). Next few years I worked in the school cafeteria. I was not worked to death at all any of that time. Most of it was good learning experience. I must say that the manager of that cafeteria was a good but stern boss. I liked her and that first job for wages was good for me. Bosses can be a very good learning experience just like working for your own parents. There are good and bad in both instances.
Kids who have came from homes where they never had to work are usually spoiled and make very poor workers. Stepping down off of soap box now.........

I grew up on a farm and my dad was my boss. Great way to raise a kid if you can. I have tried employeeing kids at my pet resort and it does not work, but when I have there are good guidelines or rules on their employment. Having said that, I have one boy that does walks and pampering and is very responsible. His older sister works for me too and she is very good...but it is due to the parenting. The other ones parents are the ones that want them to have the job not the kids and the kids show up with a non-caring attitude and if repremind you are dealing now with the parent and their child would never lie or do anything wrong.

menmon
09-08-2012, 02:15 PM
Mikey

Is it possible for you to once, just once, not shoot to the extreme far left and join in a civil debate without wise A$$ comments.

Richard

I'll be the first one to agree that children need to learn how to work. One of the largest problems facing this country. The labor laws around children are not keeping them from working. It is the lack of work values most are missing and the fact they don't have to work to get what they want. I learned how to work at a very young age and it has served me well. These young adults working for us don't value the job or the pay because mom and dad take care of their every need. Albeit I didn't want to see everything I worked for go down the drain in a great depression, that probably what is going to have to occur to correct this sense of entitlement that has been put in our kids. So we are in agreement...just not changing the rules so that greedy folks can exploit children.

BonMallari
09-08-2012, 03:22 PM
I'll be the first one to agree that children need to learn how to work. One of the largest problems facing this country. The labor laws around children are not keeping them from working. It is the lack of work values most are missing and the fact they don't have to work to get what they want. I learned how to work at a very young age and it has served me well. These young adults working for us don't value the job or the pay because mom and dad take care of their every need. Albeit I didn't want to see everything I worked for go down the drain in a great depression, that probably what is going to have to occur to correct this sense of entitlement that has been put in our kids. So we are in agreement...just not changing the rules so that greedy folks can exploit children.


Like you I started working at a young age...but in defense of some of the kids today , their parents worked hard and long so their kids wouldnt have to go thru what we went thru, in effect we have spoiled the current generation and taken away their work ethic, they have been coddled since birth, Hopefully they will never know what its like to turn in empty soda bottles for pocket change, they will never know what a paper route is or cutting lawns and washing cars, just so they could afford a varsity jacket...One of the bad side effects of mom/dad working full time so their kids can live the high life is that many of life's lessons never get taught

cripes
09-08-2012, 03:44 PM
Maybe you can hire some of those children to tutor you with your grammar.



You mean his granma can't spell either..........Soory but that was a hanginging curve ball.

menmon
09-09-2012, 11:53 AM
Like you I started working at a young age...but in defense of some of the kids today , their parents worked hard and long so their kids wouldnt have to go thru what we went thru, in effect we have spoiled the current generation and taken away their work ethic, they have been coddled since birth, Hopefully they will never know what its like to turn in empty soda bottles for pocket change, they will never know what a paper route is or cutting lawns and washing cars, just so they could afford a varsity jacket...One of the bad side effects of mom/dad working full time so their kids can live the high life is that many of life's lessons never get taught

I made that mistake with my boy. I gave him everything and he grew up thinking I and the world owed him something. He is learning the lessons you and I learned the hard way right now. Give him a view more years and he might have a clue. In hindsight, I should have made him work for a soda, so he would appreciated everything he got.

charly_t
09-09-2012, 03:04 PM
I made that mistake with my boy. I gave him everything and he grew up thinking I and the world owed him something. He is learning the lessons you and I learned the hard way right now. Give him a view more years and he might have a clue. In hindsight, I should have made him work for a soda, so he would appreciated everything he got.

Congratulations ! Best post you have ever made on this forum.

road kill
09-09-2012, 03:59 PM
I made that mistake with my boy. I gave him everything and he grew up thinking I and the world owed him something. He is learning the lessons you and I learned the hard way right now. Give him a view more years and he might have a clue. In hindsight, I should have made him work for a soda, so he would appreciated everything he got.
But ideologically, you are a proponent for GIVING people everything for nothing, on my dime!!!

A walking oxymoron...............

gmhr1
09-09-2012, 04:38 PM
Give people a job let them pay for their own health care, food, clothes, rent etc if they work hard and need help thats what the Govt is here for but let them work Obama cannot create any jobs lets face it its been 4 yrs. They cant sit back and expect everything to be handed to them , We need Jobs! We need them fast 3000 Navy enlisted men and women are losing their jobs and in the next month 120,000 defense contractors will be getting their pink slips.

menmon
09-09-2012, 06:23 PM
But ideologically, you are a proponent for GIVING people everything for nothing, on my dime!!!

A walking oxymoron...............

No I'm not...you obviously have not heard anything I say. I'm for giving people that need it help and not for giving those that don't more help!

I have many times said that I don't like people that don't want to work getting money. I am also smart enough to know that if they didn't get it this way they would find another way...and that way is stealing and I don't think even with as many bullet as the NRA has scared you into stockpiling you could keep them held off.

There are a lot of hard working people out there that can't afford the basic necessities...like healthcare. Don't say they need to get a better paying job because they don't have the skills and we would have people to do the work we don't want to do or are to good to do...but we have Mexico for that.

It is not as simple as you or Romney try to make it and if by some chance he was to get elected. Tell me in 4 years how he changed the wellfare system. If it was so broke why didn't Bush fix it. It's a tired arguement that comes up everytime a republican wants back in the whitehouse. Surely you are smart enough to figure that out. Just like the promise of tax cuts that we can't afford nor need when we have skyrocketing debt. And old arguement that we can cut taxes and afford them by cutting spending...the last three republican presidents made that promise and did the opposite except the tax cutting part. Then you blame the democrats and write lies to shed the blame on them.

Now I know you are not that for from retirement and mark my words all those dimes you saved the be able to hunt and fish and train dogs in you old age you are going to need to buy food when they turn the inflation tax on to pay for these tax cuts and wars that they put on a credit card. You might start working on your social skills so they will hire you as a greeter at WalMart so that you can cover the difference in you medical cost when your volcher is not enough. But its all good, you gave the folks that should be paying more taxes a break and then want you to tell me how well that is trickling down to you. Bust them damn unions that you despise so much and the buddies that you have that paid their dues will be enjoying their retirement because those union pension plans kept up with inflation:rolleyes: