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BonMallari
09-10-2012, 12:55 PM
oh the irony....


didnt BHO vow to walk the picket line with them.....that is except in an election year...

lets see how Rahmbo handles this one....

unfortunately the real losers in this case are the kids

Uncle Bill
09-10-2012, 03:34 PM
There is no appeasement for unionistas...no amount of increased wages is ever enough!

While everyone is gingerly walking around the problem, and attempting to 'seperate' the unions from the teachers, I'd just submit that it isn't ONLY the union officials carrying those picket signs, and lambasting the press with their vitriol, just like it wasn't only union officials that crowded and trashed the capitol building in Madison, Wisconsin.

UB

M&K's Retrievers
09-10-2012, 04:56 PM
If I were only getting a 16% raise to a base pay to what is one of the highest pay scales in the country, I'd be hissed too. What's really funny is that Rahm Emanuel has to deal with it.

charly_t
09-10-2012, 06:11 PM
.................................................. ...What's really funny is that Rahm Emanuel has to deal with it.

I chuckled when I saw that. You had the same reaction that I had.

Marvin S
09-10-2012, 06:32 PM
Since 1970 the US student population has increased 8.5% while the number of folks servicing that population, educationwise, has increased 100%. There was no discussion of the increases in costs in the article. All you have to do is look at the result - & UB, I agree with you, those supposed intellectual giants :p are carrying those signs of their own free will :(.

coachmo
09-10-2012, 06:43 PM
And they want to keep their current health care coverage. No obama care for them!!

M&K's Retrievers
09-10-2012, 08:15 PM
I wish Emanuel would handle this the way Reagan handled the ATC. My guess is that there are plenty of teachers willing to relocate for the current levels of compensation. They would have to live in Chicago tho.

Daniel J Simoens
09-10-2012, 10:06 PM
I'm sure they are just doing this for the kids though........

Marvin S
09-10-2012, 10:32 PM
I wish Emanuel would handle this the way Reagan handled the ATC. My guess is that there are plenty of teachers willing to relocate for the current levels of compensation. They would have to live in Chicago tho.

There is a precedent in the education field - The teachers in Hortonville WI went on strike though there was a no strike clause in effect. The School Board gave them 2 days to return & when they did not fired them all. The firing stuck - does anyone believe that the children would get any less if there were replacements? I for one don't. Many years ago the Seattle teachers struck & gained a perceived victory - our teachers were feeling their oats in negotiations & came to the School Board meeting en masse with "Seattle Did" buttons on (buttons made for them by one of the principals, a supposed member of management). As Chair of the board at the time someone had alerted me to their protest so I showed up with a home made "Hortonville Did" button. This caused quite a stir among the staff & there was no strike nor threat of one since. They were never sure of where I stood but were sure I would follow the law - WA has a no strike law. ;-)

road kill
09-11-2012, 06:06 AM
This problem has been solved here in WI.

Thank you Governor Walker!!!

PamK
09-11-2012, 09:03 AM
Mitt Romney on Monday called on President Obama to take a stand on the Chicago Teacher's Union strike, which is about to enter its second day and leave 400,000 students shut out of classes.

The GOP candidate took a break from a high-dollar fundraiser to criticize the president.

"Well, I think the president ought to stand up and say we that we ought to put the kids first in this country and the teacher's union goes behind," Romney said during a radio interview with conservative talk show host Hugh Hewitt. "Look I think we've gotta help the kids, help their parents, help the teachers, but the teacher's union is opposed to many of the reforms in education that we know are critical to the success of our kids."

I thought he wanted local issues to be solved locally.

road kill
09-11-2012, 09:10 AM
I thought he wanted local issues to be solved locally.
Think the Governor of AZ believes that?:cool:

Uncle Bill
09-11-2012, 09:13 AM
I thought he wanted local issues to be solved locally.


But I thought you felt Obama walked on water, and could resolve any and all issues. This is tailor made for the messiah to handle. Besides, shouldn't this nation be doing all we can 'for the children'?


UB

gmhr1
09-11-2012, 09:34 AM
Typical obama hide your head in the sand these teachers and kids are from his hometown, Rahm Emanuel his former chief of staff, Arnie Duncan, his ties to this city and obama doesnt take a stand.

menmon
09-11-2012, 09:58 AM
I'm sure these teachers have their reasons and if the kids miss a few days....they will be treated like snow days...made up at the end of the year. Why is the worker always wrong? Or in this case the teacher?

I don't know why they are stricking but my guess is the city is trying to take from them and the union believes it is bad for its members.

road kill
09-11-2012, 10:02 AM
I'm sure these teachers have their reasons and if the kids miss a few days....they will be treated like snow days...made up at the end of the year. Why is the worker always wrong? Or in this case the teacher?

I don't know why they are stricking but my guess is the city is trying to take from them and "DA UNION" believes it is bad for "DA UNION!!!!"


FIXED!!!!!!!:cool:

Daniel J Simoens
09-11-2012, 10:15 AM
I was told (by a teacher friend) that until I am in their shoes I have no right to judge them.

I can't judge a parent on how they raise their children because I'm not a parent.
I can't judge a teacher because I'm not a teacher.
I guess I can't have an opinion about anything really.

Uncle Bill
09-11-2012, 10:47 AM
FIXED!!!!!!!:cool:


How can you say that, and leave "STRICKING" 'UN-FIXED'? :rolleyes:

UB

duckheads
09-11-2012, 11:18 AM
I'm sure these teachers have their reasons and if the kids miss a few days....they will be treated like snow days...made up at the end of the year. Why is the worker always wrong? Or in this case the teacher?

I don't know why they are stricking but my guess is the city is trying to take from them and the union believes it is bad for its members.

Why don't you become a little more informed before you guess! You know what happens when you assume something but I'm sure you know that.

M&K's Retrievers
09-11-2012, 11:31 AM
How can you say that, and leave "STRICKING" 'UN-FIXED'? :rolleyes:

UB

Beat me to it, Bill. :razz:

BonMallari
09-11-2012, 12:14 PM
this is all a manufactured set up...the teachers aren't striking for higher salaries (already lead the nation in that), they are arguing over benefit packages...or we are told

in comes BHO to the rescue to mediate an agreement and the world is safe

it all makes sense...its a typical Chicago set up..the teachers union- Rahm Emanuel-BHO...what better way to fire up your voting base but to show you have their back in a "manufactured crisis"

Gerry Clinchy
09-11-2012, 12:23 PM
I'm sure these teachers have their reasons and if the kids miss a few days....they will be treated like snow days...made up at the end of the year. Why is the worker always wrong? Or in this case the teacher?

I don't know why they are stricking but my guess is the city is trying to take from them and the union believes it is bad for its members.

The impression I've gotten is that the teachers are also very concerned about keeping their health insurance plan and opposing teacher evaluations.

Chicago, I've read, has some of the worst schools in the country in student performance. Similar to Philadelphia. The violence, gang activity, etc. interferes with the ability of students to get educated. It's possible that teachers in such schools feel they are entitled to wages and benefits that are equatable to "combat pay."

So, the answer may lie in how the school system/district can find an answer to make it possible to re-establish the environment where the students who want to can learn. I don't have the answer to that, but I'd think the first thing is to do something about that problem ... even if it is temporary until a longer-term solution is found.

For example, we are often told that if we don't get kids educated they will be a bigger burden on society later. If the trouble-makers aren't removed from the rest of the kids, both the trouble-makers and the other kids don't get educated. If you take the trouble-makers out of that classroom, then at least there's some chance you'll educate the ones who would learn if they weren't being intimidated by the trouble-makers?

But there has to be a penalty to the trouble-makers. Sitting in a room throwing spitballs isn't a penalty ... it's a reward. How about making them clean up school grounds; wash graffiti off walls, etc? Probably also a good idea, split them up. Split them up and bus them to another school to do this stuff so that their "support network" is disrupted. I'm sure that there is enough clean-up to do that is left over after the paid employees put in their time.

It is divine justice (sorry for mentioning God), that Emmanuel has to deal with this :-) He finagled his residency so that he could become Mayor of Chicago. Since he is from Chicago, he HAD to know what he was getting into. Has he uesed the excuse that he inherited this from Daley? He doesn't dare! They are both part of the same political machine.

Sue Kiefer
09-11-2012, 12:30 PM
The problem with "making" kids do anything as a "Punishment". Is that these kids know more about the laws then we do.
Good Luck "making" any of the "trouble-makers " do anything.
My niece teachers in a small community in central ILL. She teaches special -needs students. Students that are troubled NOT handicapped. Some students come to school with ankle bracelets!!!
I hate that all the parents that kids are usually in school while they are at work.
It's a mess.
Sue

road kill
09-11-2012, 01:46 PM
Seems to be lots of knowledge on this Chicago mess.
Any of you know the President of the CTU???


Ladies and gentlemen, meet Karen Lewis;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1YXOSaMZzs

samcollett
09-11-2012, 02:16 PM
unfortunately the real losers in this case are the kids

That's all there is to it right there. It seems to me that it takes away from their argument as to how great of teachers they are when they are clearly not concerned with how long these kids are going to be out of school. I'd want my kid's teacher to care about him/her. Those might be few and far between, but I know a few teachers who genuinely love what they do and really care about the kids. I'm sorry, but if you got into teaching looking to make a killing and live the high life after retirement, I have no pity for you.


The problem with "making" kids do anything as a "Punishment". Is that these kids know more about the laws then we do.
Good Luck "making" any of the "trouble-makers " do anything.
My niece teachers in a small community in central ILL. She teaches special -needs students. Students that are troubled NOT handicapped. Some students come to school with ankle bracelets!!!
I hate that all the parents that kids are usually in school while they are at work.
It's a mess.
Sue

My mom is an IEP facilitator for emotionally disturbed high school kids. She taught them for 8 years. It's a tough job, but she loves it.

Down East Labs 217
09-11-2012, 02:38 PM
It's possible that teachers in such schools feel they are entitled to wages and benefits that are equatable to "combat pay."

.

So they want an extra 225.00 a month. That is combat pay for the military when they are in a combat certified area.

Richard

Terri
09-11-2012, 03:22 PM
I'm sure these teachers have their reasons and if the kids miss a few days....they will be treated like snow days...made up at the end of the year. Why is the worker always wrong? Or in this case the teacher?

I don't know why they are stricking but my guess is the city is trying to take from them and the union believes it is bad for its members.

I was raised in Illinois, K through 12 grade. First 6 six years private and then moved to the public school. I was in 10th grade when the teacher's went on strike in my city. To make up the time the plan was to cut Thanksgiving and Christmas down to cover the strike days. The problem with the end of school make up is the weather. Many schools still do not have air condition, but the temp. are very high most years in that state during the summer. The students went on strike, I walked out the door right along with most of my classmates. After the strike, one teacher the Biology teacher informed us that all the students who walked out would not be allowed to make up the test that was scheduled during our strike. I told him I remember he was walking the teacher's strike and was caring a BIG sign. He admitted that he was there on the picket line because that was business and a good cause. I told him he should then understand why we went on strike and honor our strike, just as we were forced to honor his strike. He didn't care about the students and remains to this day at the top of the list of scum balls. I did have the last laugh in that class.

Terri

menmon
09-11-2012, 03:50 PM
The impression I've gotten is that the teachers are also very concerned about keeping their health insurance plan and opposing teacher evaluations.

Chicago, I've read, has some of the worst schools in the country in student performance. Similar to Philadelphia. The violence, gang activity, etc. interferes with the ability of students to get educated. It's possible that teachers in such schools feel they are entitled to wages and benefits that are equatable to "combat pay."

So, the answer may lie in how the school system/district can find an answer to make it possible to re-establish the environment where the students who want to can learn. I don't have the answer to that, but I'd think the first thing is to do something about that problem ... even if it is temporary until a longer-term solution is found.

For example, we are often told that if we don't get kids educated they will be a bigger burden on society later. If the trouble-makers aren't removed from the rest of the kids, both the trouble-makers and the other kids don't get educated. If you take the trouble-makers out of that classroom, then at least there's some chance you'll educate the ones who would learn if they weren't being intimidated by the trouble-makers?

But there has to be a penalty to the trouble-makers. Sitting in a room throwing spitballs isn't a penalty ... it's a reward. How about making them clean up school grounds; wash graffiti off walls, etc? Probably also a good idea, split them up. Split them up and bus them to another school to do this stuff so that their "support network" is disrupted. I'm sure that there is enough clean-up to do that is left over after the paid employees put in their time.

It is divine justice (sorry for mentioning God), that Emmanuel has to deal with this :-) He finagled his residency so that he could become Mayor of Chicago. Since he is from Chicago, he HAD to know what he was getting into. Has he uesed the excuse that he inherited this from Daley? He doesn't dare! They are both part of the same political machine.

My son was at Ray Elementary there for 2nd and 3rd grade. It was an awesome school and they taught him how to read. This was some time back but it blew the texas schools out of the water.

murral stark
09-11-2012, 08:46 PM
does anyone else see the irony here? Conservatives want the govt to stay out of things, yet they are mad that the president hasn't stepped in and fired the teachers. They want the govt to stay out of things, unless it is a chance to bust the union, then it's ok. If the govt got involved then, they would scream to stay out of it, it's a local thing. If the govt were to step in and fire the teachers, who would do it? I guess they could hire replacement teachers like the NFL did with the referees. This is driving me crazy. Not a very long drive I might add.;)

mjiorle
09-11-2012, 08:55 PM
Unfortunately, in the court of public opinion, the teachers always lose when these kinds of things go down. Just to clear things up a bit for some, it is highly unlikely that the students will lose any time. There is a required number of student days as required by law. The schedule may change, but the number of student days will not. Schools all over the country have different schedules, and holidays and breaks, but the states I am familiar with require 180 days. Most districts usually add a few more than required.
Mike

Gerry Clinchy
09-11-2012, 09:38 PM
I don't believe the govt should step in. It is a local problem, between the teachers and their city. If govt did step in, then it would set a precedent of govt stepping in to solve their problems.

Rush Limbaugh's speculation is that Obama is waiting until he can step in and be the great mediator by getting the teachers to accept an 8% raise; and tell everyone that the teachers will be evaluated, but then the latter will never actually happen. Things will be happening behind the scenes, so that, if and when, O steps in it will have been pre-agreed upon.

Yes, Rush is a crazy kind of person; an entertainer. OTOH, one wonders that Obama has had no comment at all. He was quick to comment on the stupidity of the police in CT and how Trayvon Martin might have looked like his own son ... yet on this he has been silent. It seems out of character.

BonMallari
09-12-2012, 01:39 AM
does anyone else see the irony here? Conservatives want the govt to stay out of things, yet they are mad that the president hasn't stepped in and fired the teachers.

the POTUS has no jurisdiction here, its not like the FAA situation...it is a local issue...


They want the govt to stay out of things, unless it is a chance to bust the union, then it's ok.

busting a union in Chicago.....one has a better chance of selling Eskimos a slurpee machine



If the govt got involved then, they would scream to stay out of it, it's a local thing. If the govt were to step in and fire the teachers, who would do it?

It would be the NEA and the NRLB among others, but the teachers arent getting fired

I guess they could hire replacement teachers like the NFL did with the referees. This is driving me crazy. Not a very long drive I might add.;)


my responses in blue.....its comical how Rahm E. has to include talking points about Mitt Romney during a presser about a subject Mitt has no dog in the fight....and people wonder what all the fighting was about in Wisconsin, well here it is all over again....I still think its a manufactured crisis

Gerry Clinchy
09-12-2012, 07:53 AM
I still think its a manufactured crisis

Then you would be agreeing with Rush Limbaugh :-) He speculates that it is a "set-up" to allow POTUS to step in (in a "personal" way, not a "government" way) and come out looking like "the great healer".

Public education is viewed as a "right" ... but when an individual abuses a "right" so that it interferes with someone else's "right", they are penalized. There seems to be no penalty for students who do this within our public school systems.

I can empathize with teachers who want to teach, and could be capable of teaching, but are not able to do so because of the disruptive students. Better compensation and benefits will not fix those problems. Nobody is talking about how to fix the root problems that produce the net result that students spend 12 years (sometimes drop out sooner) in the public school system, and still become unproductive adults.

road kill
09-12-2012, 08:06 AM
This is not about teachers or students.

This is about "DA UNION."

They don't want merit pay or reviews and they want an exemption from Obama care.
How can Rahm and Obama win in this.
If they stand up to "DA UNION" they lose.
If they give an exemption for Obama care, they lose.
Hysterical...........

Did anyone take a look at Karen Lewis?
The president of the Chicago Teachers Union?

This whole situation is a microcosm of what ails America today..............

BonMallari
09-12-2012, 08:59 AM
Then you would be agreeing with Rush Limbaugh :-) He speculates that it is a "set-up" to allow POTUS to step in (in a "personal" way, not a "government" way) and come out looking like "the great healer".

Public education is viewed as a "right" ... but when an individual abuses a "right" so that it interferes with someone else's "right", they are penalized. There seems to be no penalty for students who do this within our public school systems.

I can empathize with teachers who want to teach, and could be capable of teaching, but are not able to do so because of the disruptive students. Better compensation and benefits will not fix those problems. Nobody is talking about how to fix the root problems that produce the net result that students spend 12 years (sometimes drop out sooner) in the public school system, and still become unproductive adults.


That was my thought back in post # 21...so I guess Rush agrees with me....was not aware thats what he said..when I heard that they werent striking for higher wages/salaries something just didnt seem right

Jason Glavich
09-12-2012, 09:22 AM
Seems to be lots of knowledge on this Chicago mess.
Any of you know the President of the CTU???


Ladies and gentlemen, meet Karen Lewis;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1YXOSaMZzs
is this a comedy routine?

menmon
09-12-2012, 09:28 AM
Obama would prefer this not to be happening. And you are right it is not any of the governments business. Reagan made it his with the air traffic controllers. Think about the issues with air traffic control and how unsafe it has been recently. The union knows their workers limitations. Just like size of class room. 15 kids verses 30 kids that don't mind...might make it hard for a teacher to keep their cool, but if they lost it...it is the teacher fault

Gerry Clinchy
09-12-2012, 09:34 AM
is this a comedy routine?

I had the same reaction ... she could make a career of stand-up. Did she actually criticize Obama's choice of Sec of Educ?

Gerry Clinchy
09-12-2012, 09:40 AM
15 kids verses 30 kids that don't mind...might make it hard for a teacher to keep their cool, but if they lost it...it is the teacher fault

Studies have shown that class size are not truly relevant to learning results. The quality of the teacher and the attention of the students is more a factor. In good colleges, "lecture-type" classes for many subjects have long been common. But no hooliganism is tolerated in those environments.

A teacher can keep their cool in a room of 50 kids, if the kids abide by rules that preserve a learning environment. 30 well-behaved students are not a problem. 15 hooligans are a problem; 30 hooligans is anarchy.

menmon
09-12-2012, 10:03 AM
Studies have shown that class size are not truly relevant to learning results. The quality of the teacher and the attention of the students is more a factor. In good colleges, "lecture-type" classes for many subjects have long been common. But no hooliganism is tolerated in those environments.

A teacher can keep their cool in a room of 50 kids, if the kids abide by rules that preserve a learning environment. 30 well-behaved students are not a problem. 15 hooligans are a problem; 30 hooligans is anarchy.

Higher education is a whole different subject...but since you brought it up...take the freshmen that fail out at the big universities their first year and go to a junior college and them come back. The large classroom is the reason.

But we are talking about kids of all different learning abilities and if the classroom is small they can give the attention needed to these various kids, where if it was large they could not give the personal attention.

We have a bunch of armchair teachers on this forum and it is obvious that more teachers would produce better results. See everyone misses the big picture...if you can make these kids love to learn there is a much more chance they will grow up and be productive versus not capable of learning the demanding trades and proffessions we have in this country.

menmon
09-12-2012, 10:06 AM
Historically WI or the more social states produce well educated people, but now you want to make them like texas and produce a bunch of dumb a>>es. Just look at how clueless our governer is and then do the math. Cutting spending on teachers will bite you in the a>>...just look at Texas's model and you won't have any problem connecting the dots.

huntinman
09-12-2012, 10:15 AM
Historically WI or the more social states produce well educated people, but now you want to make them like texas and produce a bunch of dumb a>>es. Just look at how clueless our governer is and then do the math. Cutting spending on teachers will bite you in the a>>...just look at Texas's model and you won't have any problem connecting the dots.

Umm...don't you live and work in Texas?

menmon
09-12-2012, 10:21 AM
Umm...don't you live and work in Texas?

yea but I went to school in Chicago....the country wants to be like texas now....lot of great things here but education except for higher education sucks....just pull up standardized test scores and you know all you need to know.

mjiorle
09-12-2012, 10:29 AM
I believe more studies have shown that class size does matter. It may not be the only important factor, but it still is a factor. Comparing college level lecture classes to public school classes is apples to oranges. 50 or more 18 year olds and over that are paying to be there is quite different than 30 +- public school students. Quality of the teacher is important, but classroom teachers in public schools hands are being tied (figuratively) more and more.
Mike



Studies have shown that class size are not truly relevant to learning results. The quality of the teacher and the attention of the students is more a factor. In good colleges, "lecture-type" classes for many subjects have long been common. But no hooliganism is tolerated in those environments.

A teacher can keep their cool in a room of 50 kids, if the kids abide by rules that preserve a learning environment. 30 well-behaved students are not a problem. 15 hooligans are a problem; 30 hooligans is anarchy.

Gerry Clinchy
09-12-2012, 11:26 AM
I believe more studies have shown that class size does matter. It may not be the only important factor, but it still is a factor. Comparing college level lecture classes to public school classes is apples to oranges. 50 or more 18 year olds and over that are paying to be there is quite different than 30 +- public school students. Quality of the teacher is important, but classroom teachers in public schools hands are being tied (figuratively) more and more.
Mike
This then goes back to the root of the problem I started with ... the students are not required to abide by rules that prevent them from interfering with the teaching/learning process.

Albeit long ago! I went to public schools with classes close to, if not equal to, 30 students. Misbehavior was not tolerated. We got to release energy during recess.

As for the "paying to be there" part ... those students' in public schools have parents who are paying for them to be there as well. It is just not as obvious as it is with paying tuition. Every time I pay my property taxes, it is a very clear reminder :-)

While a goodly portion of public school students have parents who may not be paying taxes, those who are paying the bills should care that the schools are using that hard-earned $ to best advantage.

In regard to Menmon's mention of special attention to students with special needs ... there is a LOT of that available to children with special needs in today's school systems. My DIL is such a teacher, a reading specialist.

mjiorle
09-12-2012, 11:43 AM
Tuition is optional, taxes are not. Why do private schools have better scores and fewer behavior problems, sometimes with lesser facilities and course offerings? Simple, it's a different class of people that are paying to send their children there. You are right that students(not enough of them), are not required to abide by the rules, and that is a direct reflection of society and parental influences.
Mike

Jason Glavich
09-12-2012, 11:57 AM
I had the same reaction ... she could make a career of stand-up. Did she actually criticize Obama's choice of Sec of Educ?

She also criticized a Harvard degree saying it wasn't hard to stay there just to get in and accused him of self medicating while at Harvard, then says she used to smoke pot in Dartmouth all the time and she self medicated. That woman is a poor excuse for a teacher.

Marvin S
09-12-2012, 12:13 PM
I believe more studies have shown that class size does matter. It may not be the only important factor, but it still is a factor. Comparing college level lecture classes to public school classes is apples to oranges. 50 or more 18 year olds and over that are paying to be there is quite different than 30 +- public school students. Quality of the teacher is important, but classroom teachers in public schools hands are being tied (figuratively) more and more.
Mike

Each year in negotiations this subject was broached by the reps fron the teachers association - we asked them for any substantiation they could provide - every year there was none, so it was dropped - IMO lower class sizes means more union members & little else - having a lot of experience as a participant in the class room, teacher quality & a stimulating subject are the biggest reason children learn - a good teacher is a good stimulator :)

I started at a liberal arts school - left after one semester as there was little challenge - went to an engineering school, now that was college level & the courses were stimulating - I believe some HS level courses could meet that same criteria -

twall
09-12-2012, 12:35 PM
Home school!

Tom

menmon
09-12-2012, 12:53 PM
This then goes back to the root of the problem I started with ... the students are not required to abide by rules that prevent them from interfering with the teaching/learning process.

Albeit long ago! I went to public schools with classes close to, if not equal to, 30 students. Misbehavior was not tolerated. We got to release energy during recess.

As for the "paying to be there" part ... those students' in public schools have parents who are paying for them to be there as well. It is just not as obvious as it is with paying tuition. Every time I pay my property taxes, it is a very clear reminder :-)

While a goodly portion of public school students have parents who may not be paying taxes, those who are paying the bills should care that the schools are using that hard-earned $ to best advantage.

In regard to Menmon's mention of special attention to students with special needs ... there is a LOT of that available to children with special needs in today's school systems. My DIL is such a teacher, a reading specialist.

That's it...the parents are paying either through taxes or rent that ultimately pays the taxes...not the students so it does not mean anything.

menmon
09-12-2012, 12:59 PM
Tuition is optional, taxes are not. Why do private schools have better scores and fewer behavior problems, sometimes with lesser facilities and course offerings? Simple, it's a different class of people that are paying to send their children there. You are right that students(not enough of them), are not required to abide by the rules, and that is a direct reflection of society and parental influences.
Mike

The better private schools have students with very educated parents that work hard with their kids to make them successful...therefore this added help shows up in performance.

Now the public schools on the other hand have children thats parents may not be able to help with algibra for example.

Going back to the small classroom...teachers are able to help the kids that struggle with certain things, where they couldn't if the class size was big.

mjiorle
09-12-2012, 01:26 PM
There is evidence, read the studies while in college. Just because they were not provided to you doesn't mean they don't exist. I can tell you from personal experience that it can make a difference. I understand your distaste of unions, but for the teachers in the classroom, there is a definite advantage in most cases. Also when class size is discussed district wide, that it impacts all levels. A 30 + K through 5 class with included special needs students is a different scene than a H.S. AP chem class.

I agree 100% a good teacher is a good motivator. As for the Liberal vs. Engineering school.... That is the whole left brain vs right brain kind of thing. And there are some HS courses that meet that Criteria. In many places, higher achieving HS students are able to take college courses while still in HS. My sister had college credits from Lafayette (in PA) before attending The U of Arizona.

Current research shows that lecture type classes are not the best ways for students to learn. Classroom teachers in many cases are not allowed to teach using the methods that were used with us. The methods that are being required make large class sizes difficult.

Mike


Each year in negotiations this subject was broached by the reps fron the teachers association - we asked them for any substantiation they could provide - every year there was none, so it was dropped - IMO lower class sizes means more union members & little else - having a lot of experience as a participant in the class room, teacher quality & a stimulating subject are the biggest reason children learn - a good teacher is a good stimulator :)

I started at a liberal arts school - left after one semester as there was little challenge - went to an engineering school, now that was college level & the courses were stimulating - I believe some HS level courses could meet that same criteria -

gmhr1
09-12-2012, 01:38 PM
Obama said he has a big ole hat and sunglasses so he was ready to strike with them where is he?

huntinman
09-12-2012, 01:45 PM
Obama said he has a big ole hat and sunglasses so he was ready to strike with them where is he?

he can't find his tennis shoes... and mom jeans

gmhr1
09-12-2012, 01:47 PM
He's to busy getting ready for the Letterman show while he's in New York, or I'm sure he would be there. Same reason he cant meet with Netanyahu he's so busy . He couldnt even put off fund raising for a day after the Libya attack he had to get to Las Vegas. .

Terri
09-12-2012, 02:35 PM
I think the big difference is also the fact that private schools can accept or reject students. I know my brother was not welcome at the private school because he was dyslexic. I also do not think you can compare k-12 students with college students. I sent all my kids to public school for k-12 and I would put there test scores up to any student in a private school or even a foreign school. There are many factors that affect how a student will do in school. Parents also play a big part in how well a child does in school.

Terri

road kill
09-12-2012, 02:39 PM
I think the big difference is also the fact that private schools can accept or reject students. I know my brother was not welcome at the private school because he was dyslexic. I also do not think you can compare k-12 students with college students. I sent all my kids to public school for k-12 and I would put there test scores up to any student in a private school or even a foreign school. There are many factors that affect how a student will do in school. Parents also play a big part in how well a child does in school.

Terri
Do teachers play any roll?
Does DA UNION?

Or is it all someone elses fault when students can't read or do math and couldn't find the capitol of Russia if you showed it to them?

menmon
09-12-2012, 03:20 PM
Do teachers play any roll?
Does DA UNION?

Or is it all someone elses fault when students can't read or do math and couldn't find the capitol of Russia if you showed it to them?

A teachers job is to facilitate learning. They can't teach someone that does not want to listen...I can relate. However, they can build confidence and motivate. That is a good teacher.

Teacher need unions because if a city can get away with it, it would give them nothing.

BonMallari
09-12-2012, 03:35 PM
A teachers job is to facilitate learning. They can't teach someone that does not want to listen...I can relate. However, they can build confidence and motivate. That is a good teacher.

Teacher need unions because if a city can get away with it, it would give them nothing.

which one of your teachers do we hold responsible for your lack of spelling and grammar skills ?

huntinman
09-12-2012, 03:38 PM
which one of your teachers do we hold responsible for your lack of spelling and grammar skills ?

Can't blame the teacher if they didn't have anything to work with...

mjiorle
09-12-2012, 03:39 PM
Bon, If you're going to say that, please begin your sentence with a capital.

Sorry Bon, I couldn't resist.
Mike


which one of your teachers do we hold responsible for your lack of spelling and grammar skills ?

BonMallari
09-12-2012, 03:44 PM
Good one....in the words of Val Kilmer's Doc Holliday character from Tombstone, "..Let's have a spelling bee.."

mjiorle
09-12-2012, 04:24 PM
"I'm your huckleberry""



Good one....in the words of Val Kilmer's Doc Holliday character from Tombstone, "..Let's have a spelling bee.."

menmon
09-12-2012, 04:53 PM
Can't blame the teacher if they didn't have anything to work with...

At least I stayed awake in my Poltical Science classes....something you aparently didn't do.... because you would realize that Romney is a loser.

You are just another Rush junkie...not an original thought...anyway when you are coping from an email sent to you from Rush they have already spell checked...that being the only thing they checked;-)

starjack
09-12-2012, 05:06 PM
At least I stayed awake in my Poltical Science classes....something you aparently didn't do.... because you would realize that Romney is a loser.

You are just another Rush junkie...not an original thought...anyway when you are coping from an email sent to you from Rush they have already spell checked...that being the only thing they checked;-)Chicago who would of thunk it

huntinman
09-12-2012, 05:06 PM
At least I stayed awake in my Poltical Science classes....something you aparently didn't do.... because you would realize that Romney is a loser.

You are just another Rush junkie...not an original thought...anyway when you are coping from an email sent to you from Rush they have already spell checked...that being the only thing they checked;-)

You are becoming unhinged... like most of the left... It's going to be a sad morning for you on the day after the election... I hope you have the number to the crisis hotline.

caryalsobrook
09-12-2012, 05:16 PM
I believe more studies have shown that class size does matter. It may not be the only important factor, but it still is a factor. Comparing college level lecture classes to public school classes is apples to oranges. 50 or more 18 year olds and over that are paying to be there is quite different than 30 +- public school students. Quality of the teacher is important, but classroom teachers in public schools hands are being tied (figuratively) more and more.

Mike

I don't know about he studies but I do know about Tennessee. The state has poured money into the school system to significantly reduce class size and has been successful in doing so. Resulting change in performaance is that there has been no change. The result may be caused by other factors but still the result is no change in performance.

By any scale you choose, the US spends more on educaton than any other country in the world. The results have been quite different. You are correct that teachers are severely resticted in their choices in teaching. That is a result of the fact that students are forced to attend the schools for which they have been zoned. As a result, rules and regulations must fit all students. I well remember a conflict with my son's elementary school concerning the gifted program. They told me what they were going to do and I forced them to obey the law. Neither of us really won. I got what I wanted for my son but at the cost of a considerable amount of both my time and the schools time, not to mention money. Much simpler would have been had the school been able to say, "you don't like our rules then go somewhere else." My response would have been simply, "you're fired and I will take the voucher to another school." Both the school and my son wold have been better off.

Marvin S
09-12-2012, 05:39 PM
I don't know about he studies but I do know about Tennessee. The state has poured money into the school system to significantly reduce class size and has been successful in doing so. Resulting change in performaance is that there has been no change. The result may be caused by other factors but still the result is no change in performance.

By any scale you choose, the US spends more on educaton than any other country in the world. The results have been quite different. You are correct that teachers are severely resticted in their choices in teaching. That is a result of the fact that students are forced to attend the schools for which they have been zoned. As a result, rules and regulations must fit all students. I well remember a conflict with my son's elementary school concerning the gifted program. They told me what they were going to do and I forced them to obey the law. Neither of us really won. I got what I wanted for my son but at the cost of a considerable amount of both my time and the schools time, not to mention money. Much simpler would have been had the school been able to say, "you don't like our rules then go somewhere else." My response would have been simply, "you're fired and I will take the voucher to another school." Both the school and my son would have been better off.

That alone would solve 90% of the issues in education today :cool:.

mjiorle
09-12-2012, 05:44 PM
I understand what you're saying, but I think the voucher system would cause as many, if not more, problems than it solves. Also, I don't dispute what you've said about TN, but would you rather your son be in an elementary class of 30+ or 20?
Mike

caryalsobrook
09-12-2012, 07:19 PM
I understand what you're saying, but I think the voucher system would cause as many, if not more, problems than it solves. Also, I don't dispute what you've said about TN, but would you rather your son be in an elementary class of 30+ or 20?
Mike
He WAS in an elementary class of 20. The state had indeed decreased class size AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE!!

I might add that as long as children are restricted as to where they are allowed to attend school, then teachers also will be severely restricted as to their freedom to teach in a manner they feel proper.

mjiorle
09-12-2012, 07:53 PM
You don't think it would restrict them? It could have just the opposite effect and restrict them even more. In a service industry where you are essentially competing for business the customer is always right. If it does what you think, than I would be all for it. I just think there are just as many problems it would create. Enrollments could change drastically from district to district thus teachers would be following the population. The good schools would get the better class of students, and the others the leftovers and non concerned parents creating even more of a divide between the achievement of schools.
Hard to find good answers with this situation!
My question regarding class size was more of a personal one. Regardless of whatever was used to evaluate performance in the TN case, I think most parents would like smaller class sizes for their children. Especially in the elementary grades.
Mike

caryalsobrook
09-12-2012, 09:03 PM
You don't think it would restrict them? It could have just the opposite effect and restrict them even more. In a service industry where you are essentially competing for business the customer is always right. If it does what you think, than I would be all for it. I just think there are just as many problems it would create. Enrollments could change drastically from district to district thus teachers would be following the population. The good schools would get the better class of students, and the others the leftovers and non concerned parents creating even more of a divide between the achievement of schools.
Hard to find good answers with this situation!
My question regarding class size was more of a personal one. Regardless of whatever was used to evaluate performance in the TN case, I think most parents would like smaller class sizes for their children. Especially in the elementary grades.
Mike
Do I think it would restrict teachers? Absolutely not. The only thing limiting teachers would then be the degree of success or lack of it. Has the current system been shown to be a failure? I think so, given the amount of money spent on it and the lack of success it has achieved. Has a voucher system been shown to be successful? It certainly was in the District of Columbia where only dissadvantaged minorities, the very ones you say would be poorly educted were allowed to have vouchers and go to the school of their choice. Their scores skyrocketed until the President in one of his first actions discontinued the pilot program and made those kids who had made such great strides, return to the very schools where they had been such low achievers.

As to class size, I read your post touting STUDIES, not personal opinion as your arguement for class size reduction. As to what the public would want to class size as a priority of where to spend the available money, we don't know because THEY HAVE NO SAY IN THE ISSUE!

Gerry Clinchy
09-12-2012, 09:28 PM
I don't think that parents would care if the class size is 20 or 30. They would only care if their kid gets educated. We have been told for a long time that 30 is too high, but that is not always true, it would appear. In a cooperative classroom environment where the students are engaged in their learning, it can work. Let us not forget that today there are also "teacher's aides", something unknown years ago.

A very great factor in our most underperforming schools is violence, gang activity, etc. If the environment is not at least safe, how can teachers teach and students learn?

As for how schools are situated geographically, that was not always done in a logical fashion. Economies of volume led to centralization of schools. Maybe that has turned out to not work as well as anticipated?

There ARE students from low-income areas that DO want to learn. Their parents must care as well, since they were quick to use the voucher systems when available. Such kids and parents deserve a chance to get to a better school.

murral stark
09-12-2012, 09:57 PM
My sister-in-law is a teacher at an inner city school in Kansas City. There is not enough money in the world to get me to put up with these kids she deals with everyday. What she would like to do and what she can do, are way opposite of each other.

mjiorle
09-12-2012, 10:08 PM
Gerry, Parents do care. Cooperative classrooms are great, but can be difficult to run with large classrooms. Teachers aides are also good, but their not teachers and they're not as common as they should be. Also, most classes include special needs students. In many cases, law requires a certified special needs teacher present with many of them. These laws have also contributed to money and staffing issues. I don't disagree with all your arguments, but there is a lot more to it than appears. Trust me, I'm in complete agreement that education has taken many turns for the worse, and there's a lot to be fixed.

Cary..... Please don't twist my words. I said parents not public. Parents (good parents)are concerned about their kids first. Public is concerned about themselves ie taxes in this case. Read my first post on this thread. The teachers will always lose in the court of PUBLIC opinion in cases like this. I think we'll agree to disagree on this thread.

Let's all go train some dogs!

Mike

BonMallari
09-12-2012, 11:45 PM
Let's all go train some dogs!

Mike

Mike clear your box out, tried to send you a PM...

caryalsobrook
09-13-2012, 12:55 PM
Gerry, Parents do care. Cooperative classrooms are great, but can be difficult to run with large classrooms. Teachers aides are also good, but their not teachers and they're not as common as they should be. Also, most classes include special needs students. In many cases, law requires a certified special needs teacher present with many of them. These laws have also contributed to money and staffing issues. I don't disagree with all your arguments, but there is a lot more to it than appears. Trust me, I'm in complete agreement that education has taken many turns for the worse, and there's a lot to be fixed.

Cary..... Please don't twist my words. I said parents not public. Parents (good parents)are concerned about their kids first. Public is concerned about themselves ie taxes in this case. Read my first post on this thread. The teachers will always lose in the court of PUBLIC opinion in cases like this. I think we'll agree to disagree on this thread.

Let's all go train some dogs!

Mike
Mike, it never dawned on me that someone would segregate parents from the rest of the public. As a former employer, I desperately wanted employees properly educated because those were the ones that could be properly trained. As a consumer, buying goods and services, dealing with someone who was improperly educated and trained was always distasteful to say the least. As a former employee, having to work with someone who was poorly educated and trained always meant that their work fell on those that were competent. So, not only parents want well educated childen. As I said, we spend more on education than any country in the world, yet there are at least 20 countries that provide their children with better educations. We are and will in the future pay fo it.

Just so you don't misunderstand, I have no idea if teachers are paid too much or too little, because there is no real market for their services. If they are paid too little, then far too much money is wasted elsewhere in education. The US has increased the funding of eduction over the last 50 years at an extremely high rate and yet, the quality of education has declined. Maybe it is time to try something different than just spending more money on a system that has been proven to be broken.

By the way, I just got back training my dogs. Also had a friend of mine make a video of one of my girls who will have puppies in Nov.

mjiorle
09-13-2012, 08:32 PM
I wasn't really segregating, just trying to make the point that parents generally prefer smaller class sizes. You are right, we do need well educated people in society. There have always been well educated and poorly educated people, and there is no real way to measure if those numbers are increasing or decreasing. The types of jobs are definitely changing as manufacturing continues to be done elsewhere. Therefore we end up "educating" people for work rather than training.

I agree 100% that there is a gross mis-management of money in education. The list of ways would be too time consuming to type. Unfortunately the public only sees salaries at times like this. Payroll is the biggest expense of districts, but if the general public saw and understood where some of the other money was going there would be just as much anger.

Good luck with the pups!

Mike

Marvin S
09-13-2012, 09:27 PM
I agree 100% that there is a gross mis-management of money in education. The list of ways would be too time consuming to type. Unfortunately the public only sees salaries at times like this. Payroll is the biggest expense of districts, but if the general public saw and understood where some of the other money was going there would be just as much anger.

Good luck with the pups!

Mike

In the district I was on the SB - 80% went to salaries & benefits - 63% Certificated (Teachers & Administrators) & 17% to the others - Transportation, utilities, books & various incidentals used up an additional 18% with 2% to be allocated at the discretion of the SB.

I'm fairly good with numbers - the only place I could see a lot of room for efficiencies was ensuring every staff member was worth what they received - in a district not delivering that could be significant :eek: , do you have something better to offer?

mjiorle
09-14-2012, 07:30 AM
1st how would you determine what each teacher/ staff member is worth? 2nd there is a lot of money in schools that is not always part of the budget. Grants etc... Money for programs that further restrict teachers, and end up going by the wayside in a couple of years. That happens all of the time. I was also in a district that would hire outside consultants for all sorts of things at high price tags, when there were in house people that could have done what the consultants did at a fraction of the cost. (the grants are often gvt. BTW)
Mike

Marvin S
09-14-2012, 10:56 AM
1st how would you determine what each teacher/ staff member is worth?

This one is easy - in our district all you had to do was observe who the children of the staff members & levy pimps were being assigned to & you had your folks that the administration thought were tops, though personality entered into it on occasion :). for those not doing well - we had a lot of complaints about those - some legitimate, some not, which had to be sorted out. In our district we asked to see the evaluations of certain staff members & were refused, rightfully so, so I told the principals that unless something was done about the weak staff members, the SB would adopt a policy of assigning the children of staff members. Guess what - the following year the weak staff members had been counseled out of the district :eek: I am not going to enter into the issue of everyone getting the same pay based on seniority regardless of degree or subject taught as that is something that has been debated thoroughly with no solution. Getting rid of poor staff members goes a long way in an upgrade.


2nd there is a lot of money in schools that is not always part of the budget. Grants etc... Money for programs that further restrict teachers, and end up going by the wayside in a couple of years. That happens all of the time. I was also in a district that would hire outside consultants for all sorts of things at high price tags, when there were in house people that could have done what the consultants did at a fraction of the cost. (the grants are often gvt. BTW)
Mike

We thoroughly evaluated all free money & the potential short/long term effects - the only money that was accepted was the reading programs. After management saw that the SB was serious about providing children a usable education they did not bother pursuing grants with long term potential bad effects. IMO the larger School districts in major urban areas have the most issues, but unfortunately that casts a reflection on all educators. If there is a bad apple in the bin it eventually gets to everyone :(

mjiorle
09-14-2012, 01:21 PM
Marvin,
I'm impressed, I thought with you being a numbers and statistics guy your answer would have been much different. Well played! That's not too bad, but personality conflicts still play into it, and that should not factor into possibly ending someone's career. Unless, there is gross negligence or misconduct, people should still be allowed to leave with dignity and the opportunity to become employed again. If they're really not good teachers, they would likely find the same result, and it would work itself out. FWIW we are likely to vote in a similar fashion this year, I just hope we don't see another "brilliant" plan like no child left behind... But that a whole different thread.
Mike

Marvin S
09-14-2012, 10:57 PM
Marvin,
I'm impressed, I thought with you being a numbers and statistics guy your answer would have been much different. Well played! That's not too bad, but personality conflicts still play into it, and that should not factor into possibly ending someone's career. Unless, there is gross negligence or misconduct, people should still be allowed to leave with dignity and the opportunity to become employed again. If they're really not good teachers, they would likely find the same result, and it would work itself out. FWIW we are likely to vote in a similar fashion this year, I just hope we don't see another "brilliant" plan like no child left behind... But that a whole different thread.
Mike

I'm glad you are impressed, never judge the depth of a pond by the water on the surface ;-). Numbers are useful in making an overall decision - they provide a comfort zone, but they are just that.

Though I believe some testing is valid - stopping social promotions might make the kids try harder - but I've seen enough jerky teachers that I would not trust with that hammer. When I was younger the military & some outfit in IA had really good assessment tests for a person's knowledge. I went to a lot of different schools from one room to huge middle schools so I've seen all sides of how kids are treated. I could pass on a few stories about the not so good in those days, the teachers had a problem with a bright little kid wearing good will clothes ;-).

I believe education should be left to the individual states & the Dept of Education should be disbanded - any bureaucracy will do their level best to stay relevant so you get NCLB - I was not a Bush fan, he was just better than the alternatives.

Terri
09-14-2012, 11:33 PM
Do teachers play any roll?
Does DA UNION?

Or is it all someone elses fault when students can't read or do math and couldn't find the capitol of Russia if you showed it to them?

I'm just getting back to this thread. I do think teachers play a role. Parents play a role. Children play a role. They all have to be on the same page or you have problems. I have pulled my kids from classes because of poor teachers. My oldest daughter was home schooled for half the school year when she was in fourth grade because the lady could not offer my child an education. I have gone to the principal on several teachers resulting in the teachers not being asked back the following year. Both teachers were first year, so an easier task than removing a teacher with ten year. One of the teachers I reported was bullying a student, not my child.

My first paragraph just looks at the classroom in a simple one on one level, but that is not the only aspect of our education system. We have so many rules teachers must follow that I would hate to be a teacher. Teachers need to teach to a test. Not all students do well on test. Not all students speak English and our system does not see this as a problem. Many students have learning problems and the parents refuse to get help for the student out side of regular school hours. They expect the school to cover all the cost. Two of my kids are education majors. I had to explain to my youngest daughter why students need to be totally taught in English and not the back and forth of both languages. She has to tutor a non English speaking student this semester. She was told she needs to learn Spanish, I told her why that is BS, but she needs to pass the class, so she will be speaking Spanish very soon. My kids all took French as a language in high school. My little niece has a speech problem. My sister-in-law (plus all her friends) sees no need to correct it before she starts school even though I told her it is in her child's best interest to not be pulled from the class. Not to be labeled as having a learning problem. Plus the kids may tease or avoid her, which will affect her self esteem. I did not even need to look at behavior problems from the kids or the parents. I did not need to look at the unions and all their crazy demands. I did not look at the social or economic impact on education.

It takes a lot to get a child a great education. I drove across town for years. My oldest daughter went to three different high schools in one district to get the best courses. She also took classes at the junior college while still in high school. We worked for her education. It was not given to her for free.

Terri

Terri

Gerry Clinchy
09-15-2012, 07:20 AM
Mike, since you are a teacher, what would your suggestion be for keeping the quality of teachers at the highest levels? There must be some way that teachers, themselves, assess other teachers. If there is to be a "review" of performance, maybe teachers could elect other teachers to make the assessments? Maybe the teachers would realize that electing the most fair-minded colleagues of integrity to those positions would be the most use to their profession? Shouldn't we be able to find 3 teachers in every school that really care enough to fairly evaluate their fellow teachers without letting personal relationships interfere?

I have to agree with a lot of what Terri says. WRT to the bilingual students. A friend years ago taught on a military base where many local students attended who spoke French. They wanted these students to learn English, so all teaching was to be in English. She was directed to speak ONLY English in class. Easy for her, since she knew no foreign languages! After a couple of months, she was accused by the administration of speaking French to the students. Within weeks these elementary school students were jabbering back and forth to each other in both English and French :-) without her help. That was some impediment to the French-speaking students relying more heavily on English, as was the intention of the school.

That same principal occurred with previous immigrants ... they went to school without knowledge of the language and adapted. Even today, the same is occurring. A friend in a high-end NJ town mentioned that their schools top students in high school were Pakistani immigrants. Most schools, including theirs, did NOT have linguistic programs for students who spoke the native Pakistani language ... the students learned themselves. My conclusion is that we are probably making an error in the way we approach the second-language problem.

In college, there was a "French year abroad program" (later extended to other languages). Students lived with French families who did not speak much, if any, English. The students who participated did, of course, have some familiarity with French. A close friend who participated in the program's first year, said the difference was that after a year immersed in the language, she found that she actually was "thinking" in French ... not having to "translate" her thoughts, mentally, from English to French or vice versa. Immersion in the language that is to be learned is likely far better than our present approach. That would make our "English as a second language approach" lacking. For these students, their progress might be greater with "only English". They might even benefit more from having their English skills abetted by other students of their own age groups v. adult teachers. Just my theory from what I have observed in practical application.

FWIW, I startd talking first in Italian as a child, because my grandmother was my pre-school childcare, and she didn't speak English :-) By the time I entered kindergarten, I spoke both English and Italian. Over time, with less and less need to speak Italian, I lost the capability in that language. Even my mother, in her later life, lost her capability since there were fewer and fewer around her that required her to speak Italian; and she was over 5 years old before she ever started to speak English. And her English grammar and spelling was better than many people for whom English was NOT their second language.


Unless, there is gross negligence or misconduct, people should still be allowed to leave with dignity and the opportunity to become employed again.

For those who DO have gross misconduct (the pedofile teachers in CA!) we should not have to pay them full wages for literally years. That is no less reprehensible than the abusive Catholic priests. In both cases, these are adults who were entrusted with the safety of our children.

I think good teachers have the most to gain by maintaining a high standard for teachers. Good teachers deserve respect and just compensation for what they do. Poor teachers detract, in the public's perception, of the value of good teachers. The same is true of all professions ... attorneys, doctors, bankers, accountants, and Realtors® (the last of which is a group I belong to). The more incompetent or dishonest Realtors® that continue to exist,the more difficult it is for me to build clients' trust that I can be honest and bring real value to their purchase or sale of a home.

helencalif
09-15-2012, 01:21 PM
Forty years ago when our children were attending an elementary school, the school had a principal who was mostly AWOL during school hours. The school had little maintenance, the supplies were locked up and few were distributed to the teachers. He told parents the school district could not afford supplies so supplies had to be brought from home. Teachers were told the district had tightened its budgets. What he was doing was making it look like he was efficiently managing the school.

As a new PTA president, I wrote a letter to the head of the school district complaining about our school not receiving supplies or being maintained like the other schools in the district. The head of the district office was new, too. I got an immediate phone call and a request to have a sit down talk with him at the district office after hours. I went and laid out all my complaints -- thinking that it was the district's fault. I think I met with him every Monday evening for 4 weeks. He quietly sat there listening to me unload. He took some notes. The only thing he said during the first meeting was... every school was treated equally and that there was no shortage of supplies.

He told me he would look into every complaint, but he didn't tell me exactly what he was going to do. I learned he started visiting our school. The first visit was a scheduled meeting with the principal. The second, third, and fourth visits were surprise school visits. He appeared at the school in a morning. Principal was not there and should have been. The school secretary led him through every classroom and unlocked the supply room. He walked the grounds unescorted. He appeared on an afternoon right after lunch. The principal should have been there, but was not. School secretary was very flustered. His last unannounced visit was an after hours visit with the custodian. He then went to the school in a morning, sat in his car and watched the school. Sure enuf. Around 9:00 a.m. the principal left the school. He followed him in his car. The principal went to an Amway retail store he had started in another town. He was spending many of the school days setting up the store and managing it. We later learned that over half of the teachers in our school were Amway distributors working under him and that many of his principal-teacher meetings dealt with Amway.

He would return to the school around 2 p.m. so he was there at the end of the school day. In all, he had been gone about 5 hours almost every school day for over a month. At my last sit down with the school district manager, I was told that the principal could not be fired, but he would be "reassigned" at the end of the school year and would be gone from the district in three years. He did not explain how he was going to get rid of him. True to his promise, the next year the principal participated in some sort of exchange program. He went to Montana for a year and the Montana principal came to the district. He was not assigned to our school. We got another principal that was terrific. His job was to get our school back in shape and to make assessments of the teaching staff. Mid-hgear some teachers were re-assigned within the district. After that year, the old principal came back to our district and was re-assigned to be the principal of a tiny school that had few classrooms for K-4th grade. This little school was going to be closed so it was its last year of operation. After that one-year stint in the little K-4 school, the principal announced his retirement.

Everything I had complained about had been confirmed by the district manager's visits to the school. After that, the district manager set up a "surprise" school visit schedule to other schools to check out what the other principals were doing and to see with his own eyes how the schools were being operated and maintained (or not being maintained). There were funds for maintenance, but the principals were not scheduling maintenance so that it would appear their schools were operating under budgeted. During the next few years, there were quite a few principal re-assignments within the district. No heads rolled, but the principals got the message and so did the teachers. A few retired; others voluntarily left. I had complained about only one teacher. I described her as being nuttier than a fruitcake. The district manager could not believe that she would assign students a reading assignment and then leave the classroom to walk aimlessly around the school grounds or that there were times she would sit under her desk. She had a mental break down in the classroom that year. She had to be physically restrained, put into a straight jacket, and hauled away in an ambulance.

I was a young mom and a new PTA president. I was shaking in my boots when I went for that first after hours sit-down meeting at the district office. I have never forgotten the experience.

Helen

murral stark
09-15-2012, 01:48 PM
Forty years ago when our children were attending an elementary school, the school had a principal who was mostly AWOL during school hours. The school had little maintenance, the supplies were locked up and few were distributed to the teachers. He told parents the school district could not afford supplies so supplies had to be brought from home. Teachers were told the district had tightened its budgets. What he was doing was making it look like he was efficiently managing the school.

As a new PTA president, I wrote a letter to the head of the school district complaining about our school not receiving supplies or being maintained like the other schools in the district. The head of the district office was new, too. I got an immediate phone call and a request to have a sit down talk with him at the district office after hours. I went and laid out all my complaints -- thinking that it was the district's fault. I think I met with him every Monday evening for 4 weeks. He quietly sat there listening to me unload. He took some notes. The only thing he said during the first meeting was... every school was treated equally and that there was no shortage of supplies.

He told me he would look into every complaint, but he didn't tell me exactly what he was going to do. I learned he started visiting our school. The first visit was a scheduled meeting with the principal. The second, third, and fourth visits were surprise school visits. He appeared at the school in a morning. Principal was not there and should have been. The school secretary led him through every classroom and unlocked the supply room. He walked the grounds unescorted. He appeared on an afternoon right after lunch. The principal should have been there, but was not. School secretary was very flustered. His last unannounced visit was an after hours visit with the custodian. He then went to the school in a morning, sat in his car and watched the school. Sure enuf. Around 9:00 a.m. the principal left the school. He followed him in his car. The principal went to an Amway retail store he had started in another town. He was spending many of the school days setting up the store and managing it. We later learned that over half of the teachers in our school were Amway distributors working under him and that many of his principal-teacher meetings dealt with Amway.

He would return to the school around 2 p.m. so he was there at the end of the school day. In all, he had been gone about 5 hours almost every school day for over a month. At my last sit down with the school district manager, I was told that the principal could not be fired, but he would be "reassigned" at the end of the school year and would be gone from the district in three years. He did not explain how he was going to get rid of him. True to his promise, the next year the principal participated in some sort of exchange program. He went to Montana for a year and the Montana principal came to the district. He was not assigned to our school. We got another principal that was terrific. His job was to get our school back in shape and to make assessments of the teaching staff. Mid-hgear some teachers were re-assigned within the district. After that year, the old principal came back to our district and was re-assigned to be the principal of a tiny school that had few classrooms for K-4th grade. This little school was going to be closed so it was its last year of operation. After that one-year stint in the little K-4 school, the principal announced his retirement.

Everything I had complained about had been confirmed by the district manager's visits to the school. After that, the district manager set up a "surprise" school visit schedule to other schools to check out what the other principals were doing and to see with his own eyes how the schools were being operated and maintained (or not being maintained). There were funds for maintenance, but the principals were not scheduling maintenance so that it would appear their schools were operating under budgeted. During the next few years, there were quite a few principal re-assignments within the district. No heads rolled, but the principals got the message and so did the teachers. A few retired; others voluntarily left. I had complained about only one teacher. I described her as being nuttier than a fruitcake. The district manager could not believe that she would assign students a reading assignment and then leave the classroom to walk aimlessly around the school grounds or that there were times she would sit under her desk. She had a mental break down in the classroom that year. She had to be physically restrained, put into a straight jacket, and hauled away in an ambulance.

I was a young mom and a new PTA president. I was shaking in my boots when I went for that first after hours sit-down meeting at the district office. I have never forgotten the experience.

Helen

If more PTA presidents were as involved as you, our teacher short comings would be eliminated. BRAVO for you!!!!!

Gerry Clinchy
09-15-2012, 02:13 PM
Interesting tidbits:

John Stossel at Fox Business reiterated this point on September 11 (http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2012/09/11/teachers-strike-chicago):

Union teachers know that many of their colleagues aren’t great teachers. Only 12% of American students attend private schools, but, 39% of Chicago public school teachers send their children to private schools (http://www.edexcellence.net/publications/publicteacherkids.html). Anti school-choice politicians are no less hypocritical: President Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Jesse Jackson, Hillary Clinton and Al Gore (to name just a few) all send or sent their children to private schools.

Chicago's stats are about the same as national stats:

However, given that ABC World News didn’t even air this story last Sunday (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matt-vespa/2012/09/10/sundays-abc-world-news-skipped-looming-chicago-teacher-strike) and most of the media, with the exception of CBS, failing to mention the compensation statistics (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2012/09/10/teachers-strike-rahm-emanuels-chicago-only-cbs-mentions-they-make-71) in their broadcast – suffice to say that the media will probably ignore the fact that almost 40% of Chicago’s public school teachers send their kids to private schools.
http://hotair.com/archives/2012/09/15/almost-40-of-chicagos-public-school-teachers-send-their-kids-elsewhere-to-learn/

I’m not against public education, but the fact that these teachers make enough to send their kids to private schools shows that Chicago’s public teachers are aware of the serial failure within the system. Second, it shows that these teachers have zero confidence in their own respective school district. Why are the teachers going on strike? Aren’t the contentious measures they’re squabbling about aimed at enhancing accountability (http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/13/opinion/bennett-chicago-strike/index.html) that will make their institutions of learning better for the students?
So the politicians keep throwing $ at the problems with the troubled school system, and they don't really care if it gets better (since they don't use the troubled schools), but it makes for good PR. The students are simply pawns in hit or miss "experiments" in which the politicians have no stake.

Helen, your story was great. I sure hope that administrator who took action, stayed with that district, and continued to behave with integrity. He/she did what was right for the students, the good teachers, and the taxpayers.

helencalif
09-15-2012, 03:55 PM
Interesting tidbits:



http://hotair.com/archives/2012/09/15/almost-40-of-chicagos-public-school-teachers-send-their-kids-elsewhere-to-learn/
I sure hope that administrator who took action, stayed with that district, and continued to behave with integrity. He/she did what was right for the students, the good teachers, and the taxpayers.
[/INDENT]

Yes, the superintendant did stay with the school district and made many changes. Most of the schools were not in as bad a shape as ours. He moved principals and teachers around and put heat on the "nesters". He was still Supt of the Elementary School District when my kids started graduating from high school.

I found out later that the principal that came to our school was being used by our new Supt as a trouble shooter. He did remarkable things for our school and then moved on to a different school to work his wonders. After two schools and 6 years, he became Asst to our Superintendant of Schools and was a watch dog for how all the schools were being operated. A few years later... he moved on to became the Supt of a different district.

Gerry Clinchy
09-15-2012, 09:44 PM
Helen, what is so important about your story is that when there are people of integrity involved, they can make even a flawed system work properly. That might mean that we simply don't have enough people like that in our school systems. Even though administrators are among the most highly paid of the staff.

mjiorle
09-16-2012, 11:32 AM
Gerry, Teachers are as diverse a group as any other profession, within them you will find all types. Like any bell curve there will be a certain percentage at the top bottom and a majority somewhere in between. Most are in it for the right reasons, the few that aren't are like the bad eggs in any group, giving a bad name to everyone. I've been in schools where the peer review would work great. However, I've also been in a number of schools that had worse cliques that the junior high lunch room. If you weren't one of the "in-crowd" you would have been out no matter how good you were. There are so many variables that I'm not sure there is one foolproof method.

Helen has touched on an important issue: Administrators. I am the son of a former teacher turned principal turned superintendent, and have taught and worked in a number of schools over the past 15 + years. There are way too many poor admins. "running" schools. The best principals I've worked for were teachers for a while before becoming admins. Many admins are coming into it fairly early in their careers, and tend to forget the day to day of the of being in the classroom, and lack the experience to deal with the myriad of people and issues that they will be faced with. Admin pay?? that's another topic that can be debated over and over. Good admins are definitely worth good money. (How much is the big debate.) When you factor in the number of people, money, and importance of their product they are responsible for with their educational level. With all the talk about weak teachers, a lot of people look to the admin to get rid of them.... Part of the admins job is to make their teachers better too. One of the purposes of of observations and reviews is for improvement not just to document so you can get rid of someone. Being a coach as well, I relate a lot back to athletics, and admins need to be a sort of coach too. When people aren't performing the way you would like, coach them up. I contend that when you see a school where a number of teachers aren't up to snuff you will find a poor administration. Good leadership is at the core of any successful group.
Mike

Gerry, clean out your pm's

charly_t
09-16-2012, 02:46 PM
Gerry, Teachers are as diverse a group as any other profession, within them you will find all types. Like any bell curve there will be a certain percentage at the top bottom and a majority somewhere in between. Most are in it for the right reasons, the few that aren't are like the bad eggs in any group, giving a bad name to everyone. I've been in schools where the peer review would work great. However, I've also been in a number of schools that had worse cliques that the junior high lunch room. If you weren't one of the "in-crowd" you would have been out no matter how good you were. There are so many variables that I'm not sure there is one foolproof method.
.................................................. ........................................


Good post. Sis ( a retired grade school teacher ) and I were just talking aout this. Your last sentence sums it up pretty well.

Gerry Clinchy
09-16-2012, 06:19 PM
I don't use the PMs ... just send to the address in my signature line.

Mike, I don't disagree with you at all about administrators being an important key to having teachers perform at their highest level.

I've also been in a number of schools that had worse cliques that the junior high lunch room. If you weren't one of the "in-crowd" you would have been out no matter how good you were. There are so many variables that I'm not sure there is one foolproof method.


There is no foolproof method for anything :-)

The leadership factor would also come into play in eliminating the clique behavior. I've seen it in other workplaces as well ... and only when it is not tolerated by the leadership will the situation improve. In other workplaces, though, the foolishness mostly just hurts the participants. With teachers, the students also are hurt. Not to mention the example that is being set for those youngsters.

Most are in it for the right reasons, the few that aren't are like the bad eggs in any group, giving a bad name to everyone.
I can agree with this, too. However ... in workplaces where there is no union each worker has to perform to a certain level of consistency. The fact that the union does not allow that to follow its course without considerable expense, is not helpful to the way teachers are perceived overall.

Whether right or wrong, (and sometimes it is right) certain professions are held to "a higher standard". If an accountant makes too many mistakes, he will lose clients. If a doctor kills too many patients, he can be sanctioned, or at least lose referrals. If an attorney never wins any suits, there won't be too many clients knocking on his door. I think there has to be some method of accountability ... for the administrators, too.

mjiorle
09-16-2012, 07:14 PM
Unfortunately, when there are powerful cliques the admins are often part of them. Reason being is that the ranking members of the clique perform some of the admin duties, or were in the clique before becoming an admin. Good admins can work within the unions if they know the contract, the law, and have a big enough set. They have to know what they're doing and be willing to follow through. Again, they also have to be good leaders able to get what they want out of staff. Getting rid of someone should not be the first thought. The first thought should be, "can I make this person better?" if not, well then......
Mike

youngblood
09-17-2012, 12:21 PM
Gerry-
I am a Social Science Education major at Northwest Missouri State, primarily an education focused school. I would argue that teachers are held to a higher standard, especially in the pursuit of obtaining a degree and teaching license. Institutional requirements are much higher for education majors than that of business, communication, or science majors. More classes are required to graduate. Education majors have to take pre-institutional tests and in order to get a license you have to pass the Praxis, which is an all encompassing education and subject specific test. Required gpa for education majors is a half point to full point higher than non-education majors. Education majors have to spend 30+ hours out of class volunteering at different schools or programs. Everything done in college is a portfolio cataloging all the positive and negative things achieved
After graduation day, that portfolio is integral in getting a job, which right now is very hard, especially for a social studies major. I have a few friends who have not gotton jobs but have been out of school for almost a year but would probably be great teachers. If you mess up as a teacher in the first year you are cut by the school in favor of the teacher who has been teaching the same way since the educational stone age and is most likely completely ineffective but gained tenure ages ago.
My point is that there is a new generation of teachers out there. Not everyone is going to be an ace, but we as a nation cannot keep putting down teachers. We need to invest in them. Put more of an incentive out there to be a teacher. Make education more competitive and lucrative. Speak higher of teachers as a whole for petes' sake. After all, it is not the teacher who makes or breaks a school. It is the community and attitude of those involved in the town/school.

Gerry Clinchy
09-17-2012, 01:34 PM
I agree, Youngblood, teachers are required to get more education than the ordinary 4-yr graduate who is not intending to teach. However, then there also has to be a performance standard when they are actually teaching. How to we evaluate the teachers once they begin teaching? Not only are they teaching academics, they are also role models for their students.

How did we arrive at the present state where so many take a dim view of teachers? This was not always the case. That might deserve some study. If we have a system that does not reward the good teachers, and lets poor teachers gain tenure, we will have less of the good teachers staying in that profession.


it is not the teacher who makes or breaks a school. It is the community and attitude of those involved in the town/school.

Chicken or the egg? Just as we must acknowledge the diversity of teachers, the same is true of those in the community. While Philadelphia's inner city school community could be faulted as a "group", there are parents in that group who still value education and want their kids to get the best shot at education ... and they welcome the vouchers to get their kids into schools where they are safe and can get that education.

I had a college friend who left teaching due to union pressure/attitudes. She was an earth science teacher in junior high. She had been a biology major in college (one of the toughest majors at our college). I can easily imagine her having been a great teacher, with her enthusiasm about her subject and the enjoyment she expressed with working with the students.

I had some great teachers in school. They had tremendous impact on me. I would wish that everyone could experience such teachers. The teachers I remember were very different from one another, but all those memorable teachers brought their personality into the classroom and/or challenged the students' minds.

Good teachers are of tremendous value, and deserve our "investment". The question is how to separate the good teachers from those who should have some other job in life.

Gerry Clinchy
09-20-2012, 08:19 AM
I just scanned the headlines yesterday that the Chicago teachers had gone back to work. It was not until this AM, that I saw the headline in the NY Times that the Chicago teachers' pension plan is paying out over $1 billion a year and is expected to go broke in a few years ... unless, of course, something is done to fix it.

I didn't read all of the articles on the issues involved in the strike ... Generally, I recall the dispute centered on a substantial wage increase (guess they've read about QE III & its inflationary repercussions); and benefits issues (but seemed to focus on health insurance, not pensions); and opposition to teacher evaluations.

I don't think even the mainstream media made the teachers' demands look very good to the public, a large portion of whcih are struggling financially or are parents whose children are in the failing Chicago school system. However, all media failed to pick up on what financial issues will follow if the pension is already insufficiently funded.

road kill
09-20-2012, 08:41 AM
I just scanned the headlines yesterday that the Chicago teachers had gone back to work. It was not until this AM, that I saw the headline in the NY Times that the Chicago teachers' pension plan is paying out over $1 billion a year and is expected to go broke in a few years ... unless, of course, something is done to fix it.

I didn't read all of the articles on the issues involved in the strike ... Generally, I recall the dispute centered on a substantial wage increase (guess they've read about QE III & its inflationary repercussions); and benefits issues (but seemed to focus on health insurance, not pensions); and opposition to teacher evaluations.

I don't think even the mainstream media made the teachers' demands look very good to the public, a large portion of whcih are struggling financially or are parents whose children are in the failing Chicago school system. However, all media failed to pick up on what financial issues will follow if the pension is already insufficiently funded.
As is my way, I will make this VERY SIMPLE!!!!

It is not the kids.
It is not the community.
It is not the teachers.
It is not the administrators.
It is not the school boards.

It is the people that RUN the schools.


DA UNION!!!!!!!