PDA

View Full Version : Where's the "Middle"



ARay11
10-04-2012, 02:27 PM
Lots and lots of talk during the debate on what will effect the "middle class" tax rate.
Blackstone made a great point about eliminating tax loopholes which could effect those with mortgages, interest income, boats, cars, etc. I can certainly understand that. But is your income "middle"? What's "middle"?
Most here know one of my largest complaints is my effective tax rate (29% last year). I don't even know of any loopholes for me. Not sure how they could close any lol.
But, back to the question...
When the candidates talk about "Middle Class" taxpayers, Exactly what income level are they talking about? I know Obama says "Those families earning less than $250,000" ... but how many of us here consider a family earning $200,000 "middle"?

The average of :
1 7 12 18 24 36 41 55 68 76 88 112 123 289 343 477 601 766 899 991= 251'ish

The middle number in that line up is : 76

paul young
10-04-2012, 03:01 PM
I would be in Hog Heaven if I made $200k.....

I honestly can't even imagine it.

That said, poverty level is defined as less than $23,050 per year and the median income (the point at which 50% make more and 50% make less) is defined at $50,054 per year. So, I guess I'm a little ahead of the game and can be included in the middle class.

duckheads
10-04-2012, 03:15 PM
I would be in Hog Heaven if I made $200k.....

I honestly can't even imagine it.

That said, poverty level is defined as less than $23,050 per year and the median income (the point at which 50% make more and 50% make less) is defined at $50,054 per year. So, I guess I'm a little ahead of the game and can be included in the middle class.

You and me both brother!

Are those figures per person or household?

menmon
10-04-2012, 03:29 PM
First of all that all sounded good. Tell me if you believe the housing lobby is going to let someone cut the mortage deduction? If you believe that I have property I want to sell you.

Now lets talk about who pays the taxes from the tax cuts. Lets say that the money trickles down and makes jobs for the middle class. Who pays the taxes on those middle class jobs....the middle class people working in those jobs. So the middle class pays the taxes. So why are you so opposed to them paying more taxes...they have no problem with you paying more.

Guys...just from what I heard you say about yourselves tells me that you will never be a member of their club, nor will I. They will tell you you are to get your vote but you will never be one of them.

Romney is for the Kings and I don't want to be at the mercy of the crumbs they dropping me.

luvmylabs23139
10-04-2012, 03:31 PM
First of all that all sounded good. Tell me if you believe the housing lobby is going to let someone cut the mortage deduction? If you believe that I have property I want to sell you.

Now lets talk about who pays the taxes from the tax cuts. Lets say that the money trickles down and makes jobs for the middle class. Who pays the taxes on those middle class jobs....the middle class people working in those jobs. So the middle class pays the taxes. So why are you so opposed to them paying more taxes...they have no problem with you paying more.

Guys...just from what I heard you say about yourselves tells me that you will never be a member of their club, nor will I. They will tell you you are to get your vote but you will never be one of them.

Romney is for the Kings and I don't want to be at the mercy of the crumbs they dropping me.

Ha HA HA OBUMMA is for stealing my hard earned money and giving it to the leaches!!! I tired of being at his mercy!

ARay11
10-04-2012, 04:00 PM
First of all that all sounded good. Tell me if you believe the housing lobby is going to let someone cut the mortage deduction? If you believe that I have property I want to sell you.

Now lets talk about who pays the taxes from the tax cuts. Lets say that the money trickles down and makes jobs for the middle class. Who pays the taxes on those middle class jobs....the middle class people working in those jobs. So the middle class pays the taxes. So why are you so opposed to them paying more taxes...they have no problem with you paying more.

Guys...just from what I heard you say about yourselves tells me that you will never be a member of their club, nor will I. They will tell you you are to get your vote but you will never be one of them.

Romney is for the Kings and I don't want to be at the mercy of the crumbs they dropping me.

You seem to be having difficulty answering the question.

ARay11
10-04-2012, 04:02 PM
I would be in Hog Heaven if I made $200k.....

I honestly can't even imagine it.

That said, poverty level is defined as less than $23,050 per year and the median income (the point at which 50% make more and 50% make less) is defined at $50,054 per year. So, I guess I'm a little ahead of the game and can be included in the middle class.

so when the candidates are talking about middle class, are they talking middle or median?

Blackstone
10-04-2012, 04:08 PM
Lots and lots of talk during the debate on what will effect the "middle class" tax rate.
Blackstone made a great point about eliminating tax loopholes which could effect those with mortgages, interest income, boats, cars, etc. I can certainly understand that. But is your income "middle"? What's "middle"?
Most here know one of my largest complaints is my effective tax rate (29% last year). I don't even know of any loopholes for me. Not sure how they could close any lol.
But, back to the question...
When the candidates talk about "Middle Class" taxpayers, Exactly what income level are they talking about? I know Obama says "Those families earning less than $250,000" ... but how many of us here consider a family earning $200,000 "middle"?

The average of :
1 7 12 18 24 36 41 55 68 76 88 112 123 289 343 477 601 766 899 991= 251'ish

The middle number in that line up is : 76


I assume there is a range that covers middle class income. Obama has the top of the range for individuals at $200K and $250k for couples. I am not sure, but I think Romney's top may have been higher. I have never heard anyone talk about the bottom of the range. Where middle class income begins, I am not sure.

BonMallari
10-04-2012, 04:39 PM
middle class is having just enough money to THINK you can afford to play the dog games....but then the cold hard reality is that it takes,all that and about 25% more just to compete and about double that to be a player

Blackstone
10-04-2012, 05:33 PM
I can give up the dog games as long as I can still go hunting. Just good friends, the dogs, and wide open spaces.

Marvin S
10-04-2012, 05:34 PM
Lots and lots of talk during the debate on what will effect the "middle class" tax rate.
Blackstone made a great point about eliminating tax loopholes which could effect those with mortgages, interest income, boats, cars, etc. I can certainly understand that. But is your income "middle"? What's "middle"?
Most here know one of my largest complaints is my effective tax rate (29% last year). I don't even know of any loopholes for me. Not sure how they could close any lol.
But, back to the question...
When the candidates talk about "Middle Class" taxpayers, Exactly what income level are they talking about? I know Obama says "Those families earning less than $250,000" ... but how many of us here consider a family earning $200,000 "middle"?

The average of :
1 7 12 18 24 36 41 55 68 76 88 112 123 289 343 477 601 766 899 991= 251'ish

The middle number in that line up is : 76


!st - It depends on where you live - 2nd - what is hog heaven for some is barely scraping by for others as some consider different things essential -

In 1986 - when the Tax Simplification Act was passed - everyone lost the right to deduct interest on personal loans which would include car, boat, jetski, etc - they still sold :o. But the killer at the time was capital gains where the effective rate was increased to 28 from 14% -

I don't think that interest on 2nd home S/B deductible, nor should interest above a certain purchase level - say 500K - but that would not cover basic housing in some markets, & would be palatial in others - nor should property taxes be deductible (for the basic reason folks would start complaining more if they were out of pocket + should someone else subsidize your life style) inheritance taxes should be paid on any capital that was not originally taxed, but only at whatever is decided for a capital gains rate. I don't believe anyone rates a windfall at the expense of others.

As for middle - we drink rarely, no one smokes, my biggest vice was the dogs which requires $20K/year/dog to really play, eating out on occasion for the atmosphere as every one that cooks in the family does well so no need to eat out for quality ;). I would guess we live a middle class life style with a tax rate under 2% of gross - does that make us bigger tax avoiders than RMoneys :)?

zeus3925
10-05-2012, 08:51 AM
I agree with Romney that we need a overhaul of the tax code. We have a 73000 page tax code vs. 500 pages for Germany and 1000 pages for France. Trouble is with letting the 1%ers reforming the code, it is a bit like letting the fox reorganize the chicken coop.

road kill
10-05-2012, 08:56 AM
I agree with Romney that we need a overhaul of the tax code. We have a 73000 page tax code vs. 500 pages for Germany and 1000 pages for France. Trouble is with letting the 1%ers reforming the code, it is a bit like letting the fox reorganize the chicken coop.
So, you would prefer to let those who pay little or no taxes rewrite the code?
Does that make sense to you?

HPL
10-05-2012, 09:13 AM
I would be in Hog Heaven if I made $200k.....

I honestly can't even imagine it.

That said, poverty level is defined as less than $23,050 per year and the median income (the point at which 50% make more and 50% make less) is defined at $50,054 per year. So, I guess I'm a little ahead of the game and can be included in the middle class.

Is that per person or per household?

HPL
10-05-2012, 09:20 AM
!st - It depends on where you live - 2nd - what is hog heaven for some is barely scraping by for others as some consider different things essential -

In 1986 - when the Tax Simplification Act was passed - everyone lost the right to deduct interest on personal loans which would include car, boat, jetski, etc - they still sold :o. But the killer at the time was capital gains where the effective rate was increased to 28 from 14% -

I don't think that interest on 2nd home S/B deductible, nor should interest above a certain purchase level - say 500K - but that would not cover basic housing in some markets, & would be palatial in others - nor should property taxes be deductible (for the basic reason folks would start complaining more if they were out of pocket + should someone else subsidize your life style) inheritance taxes should be paid on any capital that was not originally taxed, but only at whatever is decided for a capital gains rate. I don't believe anyone rates a windfall at the expense of others.

As for middle - we drink rarely, no one smokes, my biggest vice was the dogs which requires $20K/year/dog to really play, eating out on occasion for the atmosphere as every one that cooks in the family does well so no need to eat out for quality ;). I would guess we live a middle class life style with a tax rate under 2% of gross - does that make us bigger tax avoiders than RMoneys :)?

Yikes!!!
Guess I'll stick with hunting and playing WITH the dog. There is NOTHING I spend $20,000.00/yr on!!! My mortgage (includes tax and insurance) is a bit under $10,000.00!!! (and I have two rental units on the property) So......if we take the DEM's approach, from my perspective, perhaps we should be soaking you.

Buzz
10-05-2012, 09:34 AM
middle class is having just enough money to THINK you can afford to play the dog games....but then the cold hard reality is that it takes,all that and about 25% more just to compete and about double that to be a player


So how much do you think that is? I know exactly how much it costs to run dogs. I'm just curious what income you think it takes to be able to afford it. Is that entry level middle class or upper middle class?

zeus3925
10-05-2012, 09:40 AM
So, you would prefer to let those who pay little or no taxes rewrite the code?
Does that make sense to you?

100% - (47%+1%) = 52% left to do the tax code.

road kill
10-05-2012, 09:47 AM
100% - (47%+1%) = 52% left to do the tax code.
OK, I'll reword it.

To you, the people who pay the MOST taxes should have NO say in the tax code??

That makes sense to you?????:confused:

BonMallari
10-05-2012, 10:10 AM
So how much do you think that is? I know exactly how much it costs to run dogs. I'm just curious what income you think it takes to be able to afford it. Is that entry level middle class or upper middle class?

well take me for example....when I was in the mid 70k range just a couple of years ago, I thought I had the resources to run trials without family (read brother assistance)...I was wrong..I too know how much it costs to run dogs, because I have been the one doing the EE thing when Nola/Mirk were on the circuit...

IMO its the travel expenses that eat you alive....for those that use a pro like yourself its no financial picnic either...I think that Marvin's estimate is a good figure to start the discussion...at least in today's world..I just know its out of my financial reach at this time

Buzz
10-05-2012, 10:27 AM
well take me for example....when I was in the mid 70k range just a couple of years ago, I thought I had the resources to run trials without family (read brother assistance)...I was wrong..I too know how much it costs to run dogs, because I have been the one doing the EE thing when Nola/Mirk were on the circuit...

IMO its the travel expenses that eat you alive....for those that use a pro like yourself its no financial picnic either...I think that Marvin's estimate is a good figure to start the discussion...at least in today's world..I just know its out of my financial reach at this time

Currently I have two dogs that I've been running all-age. Raven has been double staked lately and I've been running Mick in the Am. That's 3 entry fees a week. Raven is with Steve, I train Mick, although he'll be in Texas for the winter along with Raven and her daughter Peerless. Peerless is 11 months old and I've been training her. She is behind in her yard work. Ideally she would be ready for swim-by and I'm just coming up on T. Holy crap, that cross between Willie and Raven produced a lot of dog... I have been getting to the blinds but not through them week after week. I am coming to the realization that it is going to take me considerably more trial experience to get dogs through all-age blinds. Trial experience doesn't come cheap. What a tough game... Maybe next summer I'll run some master tests to see if these trial dogs can do one.

I'm not sure, but I sometimes I think it is cheaper to use a pro.

menmon
10-05-2012, 10:44 AM
It is cheaper to use a pro...unless you have a whole bunch of dogs you are training.

Gerry Clinchy
10-05-2012, 10:44 AM
I think you'd have to be at least "middle" middle class income to play with any seriousness.

If you figure a min. of $2000/mo for the dog expenses (I said minimum), that $24K/year. Someone who trains their own dog and trials less frequently might be able to do it on somewhat less. Training your own hunt test dog, using only local entries, can put it within reach for many more people (I think we see evidence of that by the numbers of people involved in hunt tests).

So, if you're spending $24,000 on dog games/toys, you'd probably need at least $75,000/year in income. I'd guess that most serious players make in excess of $100K/year. Those with several dogs running regularly probably have incomes substantially more than that.

The late Mike Paterno, the owner of Dee's Dandy Dude, (and that was a long while ago), I was told, owned the company that had the contract for the maintenance of the sewer lines for NYC. His estate in Putnam County, NY, was dedicated to training his dogs; with a training pro who was on regular payroll and lived on the property. He owned heavy equipment that could move an island in a pond to suit training needs. Even that long ago, being a "big player" was not cheap. My SIL's brother was among the locals who sometimes went to shoot birds for the dogs' training.

BonMallari
10-05-2012, 10:51 AM
Currently I have two dogs that I've been running all-age. Raven has been double staked lately and I've been running Mick in the Am. That's 3 entry fees a week. Raven is with Steve, I train Mick, although he'll be in Texas for the winter along with Raven and her daughter Peerless. Peerless is 11 months old and I've been training her. She is behind in her yard work. Ideally she would be ready for swim-by and I'm just coming up on T. Holy crap, that cross between Willie and Raven produced a lot of dog... I have been getting to the blinds but not through them week after week. I am coming to the realization that it is going to take me considerably more trial experience to get dogs through all-age blinds. Trial experience doesn't come cheap. What a tough game... Maybe next summer I'll run some master tests to see if these trial dogs can do one.

I'm not sure, but I sometimes I think it is cheaper to use a pro.

a pro can buy you TIME..someone like yourself that is trying to run a business cant be in two places at once..I tried coordinating schedules for my brother and the numbers just didnt fit..trying to get him to the Open on Friday meant getting him out of the clinic by noon on Thurs (and thats just for the trial in SLC) anything farther meant no Dr on Thurs....

Thats why we looked into me running Brig, but I paid my own expenses to run SLC last year (entry fees,motel,gas,food) and that cost me over $750 for two dogs/one stake

I think in today's world it hard to even think about playing the FT circuit unless you make a solid six figures...it can be done for less, if you can live on PBJ sandwiches and stay at friends places, but double staking a dog and you're looking at a grand a weekend minimum..yikes

Marvin S
10-05-2012, 11:23 AM
The dog thing deserves it's own thread, so I will start one! I'd like to hear more about the middle class :cool:.

zeus3925
10-05-2012, 01:16 PM
OK, I'll reword it.

To you, the people who pay the MOST taxes should have NO say in the tax code??

That makes sense to you?????:confused:

Do we include all or only some?

ARay11
10-05-2012, 01:27 PM
I think Americans are accustomed to the golden rule at this point.

Now, how can we influence them? Or can we?

helencalif
10-05-2012, 01:51 PM
When Don and I were working, we were in the middle class (the middle class of the time period). I quit working and we thought we were in the lower end of middle class. When he retired and went on social security, we discovered we had slipped out of the middle class. We did not realize where we were until all the talk about how much income places you in the poverty class. If Social security is your only income, you are in the poverty level.

EEEGADS, we might qualify for an Obama phone. We might even qualify for food stamps. We might even qualify for a free new refrigerator and reduced utility bills.

Sign me up!