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youngblood
11-07-2012, 01:56 AM
With the re-election of the president, it is my hope that we as a country take a step back and look at the situation facing us as a NATION today. We as a nation threw the red flag, issuing a challenge to our leaders. After all, we are all in this together right? We put in place elected officials to represent us. President Obama faces the one of the most difficult challanges of any president in our history. The nation is truly divided. He must reach across the aisle more than ever before. Likewise, politicians who polarize issues must stop getting red in the face from anger and get red in the face from hard work, finding solutions to problems instead of creating more to push foolish agendas. I truly believe the next four years will set the precedent for the next fifty. If we cannot come together as a nation and get behind the elected leaders, we will fall farther into the abyss. I voted for Romney but I am prepared to not complain as long as our too-large government shakes itself free from the rust and begins running as a well oiled machine. This all starts at the local level. We the people must not accept sloth from our leaders. We must show them that we can work together and not be led like sheep to slaughter.

Do you guys think we can do it? There has been a lot of mud-slinging here the last few months. Are the main slingers prepared to trade in the mud balls for pies? Or will we continue the downfall of America, spitting and kicking like brats as we light the matches that burn our playhouse to the ground?

Will President Obama accept the challenge that this re-election presents? How with Republicans respond?

BonMallari
11-07-2012, 02:27 AM
Nope...sorry kid, but you may give me a schiat sandwich but unless you have a gun to my head you cant make me eat it....and if by some chance you are able to pry my mouth open and shove it down my throat , it doesnt mean I have to swallow.....reaching across the aisle is the PC way of saying the loser takes whatever deal the winner wants to spare the rest of the group from annihlation


We didnt get here in four years, we got here in a generation, long before you were born....unfortunately its my generation, the children of the post Viet Nam 70's that has gotten us here...and we wont get out of it overnight either....until we understand why we got here and the mistakes we made, it would be foolish to start talking about compromise

looks like Chief Justice Roberts was right ..."elections do have consequences"

HPL
11-07-2012, 03:35 AM
Since I believe that Obama really meant he wanted FUNDAMENTAL change, and since I still believe in the founding principles of our great nation, that is to say that I don't believe that FUNDAMENTAL change would be a good thing, I believe that it is not only NOT incumbent on us to "cooperate" with his agenda, but rather that it is our patriotic duty to RESIST everywhere we can. We need to do our best to thwart the conversion of our great country into a socialist state by letting our elected officials know that where ever possible they should work as hard as possible against this terrible subversion of the long standing principles that made the United States of America what many still think of as the greatest nation on earth.

youngblood
11-07-2012, 04:48 AM
We didnt get here in four years, we got here in a generation, long before you were born....unfortunately its my generation, the children of the post Viet Nam 70's that has gotten us here...and we wont get out of it overnight either....until we understand why we got here and the mistakes we made, it would be foolish to start talking about compromise

How long can a country run on blaming others? Many people my age complain about the decisions of previous generations. I see no point in that. If we arent proactive, nothing will ever get better. I definately agree that we have to understand where we have been to make wise decisions to form our future... My point is that we can only repeat stupidity for so long before our country self destructs. That stupidity is the unwillingness of anyone to work together. I also understand that change will not take place overnight... hence the comment that the next four years sets the precedent for the next fifty (my generation).

We need to do our best to thwart the conversion of our great country into a socialist state by letting our elected officials know that where ever possible they should work as hard as possible against this terrible subversion of the long standing principles that made the United States of America what many still think of as the greatest nation on earth.
For the record I am a gun loving, bible thumping constitutionalist who loves American ideals more than some. Socialism is one of my biggest fears. Does that mean that I think I should sit on my high horse, stick my tongue out, and say that only my views are acceptable? No. I understand that if we as a nation continue to hate others with differing views nothing will ever change. News flash folks: the good old days are in the past. America will not ever be its former industrial power when it is on an uneven playing field against China, policing countries that would rather kill one another, and eating itself from the inside out with hate. It is our time to create new and better times. My post was simply asking if we as a country are going to step up. Unfortunately, I do not think we will until it is too late, and will be too little.

I can see that the idea of "cooperation" could be seen as giving up. I just cant see anything getting better in the next four years if both sides dont make concessions. In fact, this whole two dominant party is getting old, I wonder if we will ever get out of it and return to the way America was meant to be run... not two parties running the show (scary thought.... the Soviet Union was a 2 party system for a few years!).

cpj
11-07-2012, 07:05 AM
Youngblood, Constitutional views are the only views that should be deemed acceptable. Unfortunately, neither choice feels constrained by that relic. Both candidates are owned by their corporate masters. "We the people" means nothing to them.

roseberry
11-07-2012, 07:30 AM
youngblood, i agree with you when you say "it is our time to create new and better times." in order for us to "create" we need governments to stay out of the way. gridlock, stalemate......whatever you want to call it is the best scenario for the creative. if one knows what the rules are, one can always succeed within that framework. when the rules are always changing one is never certain their creative efforts will pay off.

the reason there is no need for our governmental branches to work together is this.......they have done more than enough for us already!

ppro
11-07-2012, 07:46 AM
I think cooperation is possible where it does not infringe on the core of our existence of our country the constitution. To just state we all need to cooperate or " just get along" is naive. Will this government cooperate? Of course they will. The problem that this president poses is his seemingly extreme view on where this country needs to be headed. As long as their is common ground that does not infringe on the constitution I think everyone hopes that there will be compromise. Oh and less spending ( I mean investing ) might be nice also.

Pete
11-07-2012, 07:50 AM
Its inevitable,,,,,,,,, Bend over please,,,

I totally agree with HPL.

Pete

murral stark
11-07-2012, 07:02 PM
How long can a country run on blaming others? Many people my age complain about the decisions of previous generations. I see no point in that. If we arent proactive, nothing will ever get better. I definately agree that we have to understand where we have been to make wise decisions to form our future... My point is that we can only repeat stupidity for so long before our country self destructs. That stupidity is the unwillingness of anyone to work together. I also understand that change will not take place overnight... hence the comment that the next four years sets the precedent for the next fifty (my generation).

For the record I am a gun loving, bible thumping constitutionalist who loves American ideals more than some. Socialism is one of my biggest fears. Does that mean that I think I should sit on my high horse, stick my tongue out, and say that only my views are acceptable? No. I understand that if we as a nation continue to hate others with differing views nothing will ever change. News flash folks: the good old days are in the past. America will not ever be its former industrial power when it is on an uneven playing field against China, policing countries that would rather kill one another, and eating itself from the inside out with hate. It is our time to create new and better times. My post was simply asking if we as a country are going to step up. Unfortunately, I do not think we will until it is too late, and will be too little.

I can see that the idea of "cooperation" could be seen as giving up. I just cant see anything getting better in the next four years if both sides dont make concessions. In fact, this whole two dominant party is getting old, I wonder if we will ever get out of it and return to the way America was meant to be run... not two parties running the show (scary thought.... the Soviet Union was a 2 party system for a few years!).

Wow!! Somebody that actually can see the big picture. Youngblood, have you heard the expression, "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" That goes for most here. I agree with you in what you just said. People need to quit pouting and get over it. Work together and find a solution that is best for the entire country, not one party or the other. Thumbs up to you sir.

Cody Covey
11-07-2012, 07:21 PM
How long can a country run on blaming others? Many people my age complain about the decisions of previous generations. I see no point in that. If we arent proactive, nothing will ever get better. I definately agree that we have to understand where we have been to make wise decisions to form our future... My point is that we can only repeat stupidity for so long before our country self destructs. That stupidity is the unwillingness of anyone to work together. I also understand that change will not take place overnight... hence the comment that the next four years sets the precedent for the next fifty (my generation).

For the record I am a gun loving, bible thumping constitutionalist who loves American ideals more than some. Socialism is one of my biggest fears. Does that mean that I think I should sit on my high horse, stick my tongue out, and say that only my views are acceptable? No. I understand that if we as a nation continue to hate others with differing views nothing will ever change. News flash folks: the good old days are in the past. America will not ever be its former industrial power when it is on an uneven playing field against China, policing countries that would rather kill one another, and eating itself from the inside out with hate. It is our time to create new and better times. My post was simply asking if we as a country are going to step up. Unfortunately, I do not think we will until it is too late, and will be too little.

I can see that the idea of "cooperation" could be seen as giving up. I just cant see anything getting better in the next four years if both sides dont make concessions. In fact, this whole two dominant party is getting old, I wonder if we will ever get out of it and return to the way America was meant to be run... not two parties running the show (scary thought.... the Soviet Union was a 2 party system for a few years!).

It's views like these that got us in this mess in the first place. I think that reaching across the isle is the worst possible idea. Why would I reach across the isle and accept your ideas if I think they are the worst thing for the country? The republican party may be "dead" as another thread states but I would much rather stay in this party and have my ideals followed (for the most part) than just be another democratic party.

Larry Thompson1
11-07-2012, 07:34 PM
I believe it does not matter who gives in. The goverment can work together and do what they percieve to be best for the rest of us.
And there inlies the problem. The people in this country now believe that goverment is responsible for thier well bieng, and all they need to exsist here on earth. This is not the same country that believed in individualism. God given rights and freedom. It has become a country of takers. When a president asked its citizens not tooooo long ago. "ask not what your country can do for you,but what can you do for your country." This idea has been lost. It is now What can my goverment do for me, and I don't care what god given right I have to give up to get it. Just give me what I need and who cares about the rest of the country. I ask people where do you get your money from and they say the goverment. Ask them where do they get it and they say from thier stash. Yes I am in Philly right now and thats the way it is.

youngblood
11-08-2012, 09:51 AM
It's views like these that got us in this mess in the first place. I think that reaching across the isle is the worst possible idea. Why would I reach across the isle and accept your ideas if I think they are the worst thing for the country? The republican party may be "dead" as another thread states but I would much rather stay in this party and have my ideals followed (for the most part) than just be another democratic party.
Reaching across the aisle does not mean compromising ideals or accepting another persons ideas as truth. It means the two parties work together to figure out solutions to the HUGE problems our country faces today that both can live with and America can move on. I am not saying if you cant beat em, join em... I am saying we have to work together, like fellow citizens and elected officials are supposed to.

Also, if the republican party is really dead (come on), we are well on our well on our way to a single party monopoly that ends in more socialism. Why lay down, moan and die? Fight for your party and country, not by going down in flames, fighting tooth and nail, but by changing the image of the party by insisting change in Washington via politicians working together. Voter in 2016 will not notice another politician who only worked for themselves.... They will notice someone who worked for the country, not a party. The polarization of issues come from powerful politicians and has trickled down to regular Americans. Instead of a top down approach (like the tax approach of the Democrats), Republicans need to combat this from the bottom.

Duckquilizer
11-08-2012, 10:12 AM
Reaching across the aisle does not mean compromising ideals or accepting another persons ideas as truth. It means the two parties work together to figure out solutions to the HUGE problems our country faces today that both can live with and America can move on. I am not saying if you cant beat em, join em... I am saying we have to work together, like fellow citizens and elected officials are supposed to.

Also, if the republican party is really dead (come on), we are well on our well on our way to a single party monopoly that ends in more socialism. Why lay down, moan and die? Fight for your party and country, not by going down in flames, fighting tooth and nail, but by changing the image of the party by insisting change in Washington via politicians working together. Voter in 2016 will not notice another politician who only worked for themselves.... They will notice someone who worked for the country, not a party. The polarization of issues come from powerful politicians and has trickled down to regular Americans. Instead of a top down approach (like the tax approach of the Democrats), Republicans need to combat this from the bottom.

Actually it "working together" in political terms means you "negotiate" what you want. You ever bought a car and not felt in some ways you weren't just screwed?

MooseGooser
11-08-2012, 12:50 PM
Reaching across the aisle does not mean compromising ideals or accepting another persons ideas as truth. It means the two parties work together to figure out solutions to the HUGE problems our country faces today that both can live with and America can move on. I am not saying if you cant beat em, join em... I am saying we have to work together, like fellow citizens and elected officials are supposed to.

Also, if the republican party is really dead (come on), we are well on our well on our way to a single party monopoly that ends in more socialism. Why lay down, moan and die? Fight for your party and country, not by going down in flames, fighting tooth and nail, but by changing the image of the party by insisting change in Washington via politicians working together. Voter in 2016 will not notice another politician who only worked for themselves.... They will notice someone who worked for the country, not a party. The polarization of issues come from powerful politicians and has trickled down to regular Americans. Instead of a top down approach (like the tax approach of the Democrats), Republicans need to combat this from the bottom.


Harry ried is on record before the election stating that If Mitt Romney were to win the election,, he wasnt about to work with republicans on important issues...

Now that the election has come and gone,, he is chastising the possibility of republicans standing their ground,, when those republicans were voted for, and sent there to do just that..
Do NOT forget youngman what the last midterms were about,, and the fact with the Presidential election,, that CONGRESS didnt change one bit... They have a mandate to controll oppressive spending and taxation.. Do NOT forget that.. I hope half the population doesnt... There will be another mid term in the future.. I will be paying very close attention as to who caves.
Also dont forget,, that when that last midterm happened,, the people spoke,, and Usually that tells the PRESIDENT he must comprise.. Obama did nothing of the sort..
Even Bill Clinton,, realised when that happened to him on his second term,, that he must move more centalist.. he did that.



Huge double standard...


Its all just like a drug addiction....

Your problem will never be cured untill you hit bottom,, and YOU decide YOU have to change...

The bottom is comming up on us all fast.

I dont think it can get here soon enough..

Sometimes,, a good slap in the face does us good..

Gooser

.

Gerry Clinchy
11-10-2012, 09:48 PM
Neither Reid nor Obama have given any indication that they will do anything differently than they have been doing for the past four years.

Henry V
11-10-2012, 11:45 PM
... ... ... ...

The bottom is comming up on us all fast.

I dont think it can get here soon enough..

Sometimes,, a good slap in the face does us good..

Gooser

.

You are mistaken. This all happened four years ago when trickle down and deregulation brought our entire economy to its knees.

Not only do many of you in the echo chamber seem to live in an alternative reality, now you must have a time machine.

Buzz
11-10-2012, 11:48 PM
Neither Reid nor Obama have given any indication that they will do anything differently than they have been doing for the past four years.


Neither do the Republicans, listening to them you would think that they won or something.

Sue Kiefer
11-11-2012, 10:19 AM
They aren't getting it Youngblood. They lost they can't think past it.
Working together means compromise NOT getting UP.
Good Grief.
Sue

huntinman
11-11-2012, 11:03 AM
Compromise to a Democrat means Republicans bend over and grab their ankles... Always has always will.

murral stark
11-11-2012, 04:35 PM
Compromise to a Democrat means Republicans bend over and grab their ankles... Always has always will.

No it doesn't. A compromise means both sides give a little to reach an agreement that both sides can be happy with. Neither side gets what they want in it's entirety, they each get some things they want, and each side gives up some things they want. That's why it is called a compromise.

HPL
11-11-2012, 04:44 PM
No it doesn't. A compromise means both sides give a little to reach an agreement that both sides can be happy with. Neither side gets what they want in it's entirety, they each get some things they want, and each side gives up some things they want. That's why it is called a compromise.

Well, that's a nice sentiment, but I haven't heard the dems mention anything they were willing to bring to the table. Can you give some specific examples?

BonMallari
11-11-2012, 04:47 PM
No it doesn't. A compromise means both sides give a little to reach an agreement that both sides can be happy with. Neither side gets what they want in it's entirety, they each get some things they want, and each side gives up some things they want. That's why it is called a compromise.


in the real world YES...in the world pf politics, there really is no such thing because one party usually has the votes and can dictate the outcome.....now if there was a third party with votes , you would see some horse trading and compromise

murral stark
11-11-2012, 04:52 PM
in the real world YES...in the world pf politics, there really is no such thing because one party usually has the votes and can dictate the outcome.....now if there was a third party with votes , you would see some horse trading and compromise

I agree wholeheartedly.

youngblood
11-11-2012, 07:11 PM
Well, that's a nice sentiment, but I haven't heard the dems mention anything they were willing to bring to the table. Can you give some specific examples?
I am NOT a Democrat, first off. Second, isn't the "I'm not going to do it if you don't do it first" mentality pretty juvenile? If Republicans want a pres and majority in 2016, they have to change peoples' perception, especially the young people. It is hard to get someones vote when you will take away something like Pell Grants if they cant see the wisdom in such a move.

I am a conservative and my hope was with the beginning of this thread was to see if other conservatives could see the same things I do. Better to be working hand in hand with your fellow Americans than be the spoiled child crying in the sinking boat. This thread has not given me much hope.

luvmylabs23139
11-11-2012, 07:44 PM
I am NOT a Democrat, first off. Second, isn't the "I'm not going to do it if you don't do it first" mentality pretty juvenile? If Republicans want a pres and majority in 2016, they have to change peoples' perception, especially the young people. It is hard to get someones vote when you will take away something like Pell Grants if they cant see the wisdom in such a move.

I am a conservative and my hope was with the beginning of this thread was to see if other conservatives could see the same things I do. Better to be working hand in hand with your fellow Americans than be the spoiled child crying in the sinking boat. This thread has not given me much hope.

Let me reverse it. I'll use your Pell grant freebie. Why should I be willing to let the gov't take my hard earned money thru income taxes so that someone doesn't have to earn what DH and I both worked our butts off to pay for with no grants, loans etc. We both worked and went to college at the same time paying for our classes as we went. Whatever happened to working for what you want rather than just sticking your hand out?

Sue Kiefer
11-11-2012, 08:37 PM
That's a good statement but did you see what going to college costs these days?

I too paid my way through college useing pell grants ,Hardees and student loans.
It is becoming extremely difficult for kids to be going to college unless you have parents that have money.
Who the hell has money to be sticking away. I certainly don't.
Come on be more realistic.
Pell Grants can be worked in to a student's financial aid package by having them pay back by doing community service in his/her field for example after graduation.
My kids certainly aren't sticking there damn hands out but I'm not rich either.
Straight A students so hopefully acedemic scolarships or athletic maybe.
Very poor choice of words poster. Very poor.
Sue

murral stark
11-11-2012, 08:56 PM
Sue,
The previous poster has stated in the past that they didn't want kids and seemed to be against helping kids or people with kids. Has made comments like, "you bred it, you pay for it." that's one that sticks in my mind.

luvmylabs23139
11-11-2012, 09:03 PM
That's a good statement but did you see what going to college costs these days?

I too paid my way through college useing pell grants ,Hardees and student loans.
It is becoming extremely difficult for kids to be going to college unless you have parents that have money.
Who the hell has money to be sticking away. I certainly don't.
Come on be more realistic.
Pell Grants can be worked in to a student's financial aid package by having them pay back by doing community service in his/her field for example after graduation.
My kids certainly aren't sticking there damn hands out but I'm not rich either.
Straight A students so hopefully acedemic scolarships or athletic maybe.
Very poor choice of words poster. Very poor.
Sue

I have absolutely no problem with what I said. It took me 7 years to get my degree and my husband 9 years, but we did it ourselves and paid as we went, borrowed from nobody, took from nobody other than reaching a point in our college progression that enabled us to get low level entry jobs in our fields that offered some tuition reibursement from our employers.

HPL
11-11-2012, 09:25 PM
Sue,
The previous poster has stated in the past that they didn't want kids and seemed to be against helping kids or people with kids. Has made comments like, "you bred it, you pay for it." that's one that sticks in my mind.

I think the real saying is "you breed it, you feed it", and personally, I have no problem with that. I certainly am against folks having children which they are unprepared or unable to care for. I also believe that it is in society's interest to have at least a minimally educated population, so I might be more inclined to allow public assistance for education where reasonable. Without researching it, I would guess that there are more folks enrolled in college now than at any other time in history, so, clearly, people ARE finding ways to afford it. I guess one could say that my brother and I were fortunate enough to have our father killed in a car accident when we were young and so got Soc Sec and VA survivor benefits which allowed us to get college educations without having to borrow, so maybe my position doesn't count.

luvmylabs23139
11-11-2012, 09:34 PM
Sue,
The previous poster has stated in the past that they didn't want kids and seemed to be against helping kids or people with kids. Has made comments like, "you bred it, you pay for it." that's one that sticks in my mind.

Actually it is " you breed it you feed it". Absolutely no reason the taxpayers should be forced to pay for the iresponsible actions of others.

Marvin S
11-11-2012, 11:59 PM
That's a good statement but did you see what going to college costs these days?

I too paid my way through college useing pell grants ,Hardees and student loans.
It is becoming extremely difficult for kids to be going to college unless you have parents that have money.
Who the hell has money to be sticking away. I certainly don't.
Come on be more realistic.
Pell Grants can be worked in to a student's financial aid package by having them pay back by doing community service in his/her field for example after graduation.
My kids certainly aren't sticking there damn hands out but I'm not rich either.
Straight A students so hopefully acedemic scolarships or athletic maybe.
Very poor choice of words poster. Very poor.
Sue

I do not agree with Luvy's choice of words but do agree with the sentiment. But just to give you an idea of how it was in my day - I was offered a academic/athletic scholarship to one of the colleges in MN - $10K grant, $10K scholarship, I was still short $10K, every year - I worked my way through college (state schools) with the aid of the GI Bill, I am a Korean Vet - $110/month for 36 months- It did not cover so there was time out of school to get caught up & some money ahead. There are lots of jobs out there that motivate the unmotivated to get with it. 3 of our 4 sons worked their way through college, they were taught work skills at home so were in demand - because of that they are all productive citizens without their hand out. They own the knowledge so they should pay for it & they are now proud of having done that.

The only aid that should be given are in areas of need in the work force & then only to those who qualify mentally (STEM). Some of our Grandkids are very bright - doesn't count for much these days with grade inflation :(.

youngblood
11-12-2012, 12:55 AM
My comment about Pell Grants was aimed at showing a huge issue many young voters had with Romney. Is it to give hard earned tax payer money out to others to be educated? In some cases, I think it is. My family would not at all be where they are if the American Dream grant didnt exist. It enabled my dad and his four hard working brothers to get a degree that they used. Does that mean that people dont take advantage of them? Not at all.

Education is an investment. Students have to take it seriously, and so should our country as a whole. That doesnt mean just college. Tech and trade schools are imperitive to keeping production up.

Also if you think about it, it is only so much sticking out your hand for money. If a person graduates from college and gets a job, they begin paying taxes that allow others the same opportunity they recieved. I congratulate you on taking the road less traveled and working your way for college. That is very impressive. If I didnt have farm work, I woulddnt be going to college. My question is, did you refuse college grants and choose to work or were they not afforded to you? Because of my dad's success, I cannot get financial aid and am working my way through college.

Cody Covey
11-12-2012, 01:46 AM
My comment about Pell Grants was aimed at showing a huge issue many young voters had with Romney. Is it to give hard earned tax payer money out to others to be educated? In some cases, I think it is. My family would not at all be where they are if the American Dream grant didnt exist. It enabled my dad and his four hard working brothers to get a degree that they used. Does that mean that people dont take advantage of them? Not at all.

Education is an investment. Students have to take it seriously, and so should our country as a whole. That doesnt mean just college. Tech and trade schools are imperitive to keeping production up.

Also if you think about it, it is only so much sticking out your hand for money. If a person graduates from college and gets a job, they begin paying taxes that allow others the same opportunity they recieved. I congratulate you on taking the road less traveled and working your way for college. That is very impressive. If I didnt have farm work, I woulddnt be going to college. My question is, did you refuse college grants and choose to work or were they not afforded to you? Because of my dad's success, I cannot get financial aid and am working my way through college.
These days you essentially have to be in poverty to get a pell grant anyway. At least as a white male that is. I have no complaints with people taking out modest loans to get through college as long as they are going to pay them back. I don't understand though why we as tax payers should be required to pay for other's kids to go through college. Those kids can go to state schools and take out loans while working to get through school. Instead everyone wants everything for free and right now. No patience and no willingness to work for anything themselves.

Buzz
11-12-2012, 08:54 AM
Let me reverse it. I'll use your Pell grant freebie. Why should I be willing to let the gov't take my hard earned money thru income taxes so that someone doesn't have to earn what DH and I both worked our butts off to pay for with no grants, loans etc. We both worked and went to college at the same time paying for our classes as we went. Whatever happened to working for what you want rather than just sticking your hand out?


With talk like this, conservatives will loose again in 2016. I cannot for the life of me get a handle on debating the wisdom of helping those who cannot afford it to attend college. I worked my way through college along with taking student loans. My parents could not afford to contribute to my education fund. It took me longer to graduate, I literally had to schedule required classes so that they conflicted with work. When I graduated I had $10,000 in debt to student loans. But when I started at a state school in 1980 the tuition and room & board was about $3500-$4000/year. Now at the same school the cost is $25,000/year and rising fast. That's just less than 6.5% growth in cost per year on average since I started. No wonder kids are graduating with huge debt, most parents salaries have moved at nowhere near that pace. Back in 1980 the average starting salary for an engineering graduate was $23-25k. To keep up with a growth of say 6.3% inflation in education costs, one would have to start at over $175k now. Heck there aren't may experienced/successful engineers making that today...

My daughter so far is a near straight A student, getting A's in algebra as an 8th grader and reading at college level. I hope like heck she keeps it up so she can get scholarships because otherwise it will eat pretty good into my retirement savings to pay for it.

Down East Labs 217
11-12-2012, 09:16 AM
With talk like this, conservatives will loose again in 2016. I cannot for the life of me get a handle on debating the wisdom of helping those who cannot afford it to attend college. I worked my way through college along with taking student loans.

Buzz

This is one of the areas the GOP needs to take a look at. There are many battles in a war. The GOP needs to learn to fight the battles they can win or more of the same will happen in four years. I am a conservative and have been for many years. They, the GOP, needs to realize the changes in America, adjust for the changes, and modernize to those changes or they will continue to be pushed into a corner as irrelevant.

My opinion

Richard

Sue Kiefer
11-12-2012, 09:20 AM
Thank Goodness Buzz.
Someone gets it.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sue

luvmylabs23139
11-12-2012, 09:43 AM
My comment about Pell Grants was aimed at showing a huge issue many young voters had with Romney. Is it to give hard earned tax payer money out to others to be educated? In some cases, I think it is. My family would not at all be where they are if the American Dream grant didnt exist. It enabled my dad and his four hard working brothers to get a degree that they used. Does that mean that people dont take advantage of them? Not at all.

Education is an investment. Students have to take it seriously, and so should our country as a whole. That doesnt mean just college. Tech and trade schools are imperitive to keeping production up.

Also if you think about it, it is only so much sticking out your hand for money. If a person graduates from college and gets a job, they begin paying taxes that allow others the same opportunity they recieved. I congratulate you on taking the road less traveled and working your way for college. That is very impressive. If I didnt have farm work, I woulddnt be going to college. My question is, did you refuse college grants and choose to work or were they not afforded to you? Because of my dad's success, I cannot get financial aid and am working my way through college.

The thought of even looking for a grant as you put it is just not how I was brought up. You want something you work for it.

road kill
11-12-2012, 09:49 AM
With talk like this, conservatives will loose again in 2016. I cannot for the life of me get a handle on debating the wisdom of helping those who cannot afford it to attend college. I worked my way through college along with taking student loans. My parents could not afford to contribute to my education fund. It took me longer to graduate, I literally had to schedule required classes so that they conflicted with work. When I graduated I had $10,000 in debt to student loans. But when I started at a state school in 1980 the tuition and room & board was about $3500-$4000/year. Now at the same school the cost is $25,000/year and rising fast. That's just less than 6.5% growth in cost per year on average since I started. No wonder kids are graduating with huge debt, most parents salaries have moved at nowhere near that pace. Back in 1980 the average starting salary for an engineering graduate was $23-25k. To keep up with a growth of say 6.3% inflation in education costs, one would have to start at over $175k now. Heck there aren't may experienced/successful engineers making that today...

My daughter so far is a near straight A student, getting A's in algebra as an 8th grader and reading at college level. I hope like heck she keeps it up so she can get scholarships because otherwise it will eat pretty good into my retirement savings to pay for it.
Buzz,
I don't quite get why you think that something you worked and sacrificed for should be given to someone else.
Which of the 2 of you do you think would appreciate and respect what you have EARNED more?

My feeble education was cobbled together through a variety of means.
I feel what I have I earned, though state schools were in the area of $1,200 a year.
Far less than today.
(Why is that BTW???)
And I did pay nothing (scholarship for football).
I did hold a part time job for pizza and beer money though.

If someone wants an education, they should go get it.
I don't think it should be given to them.
And I don't think it should be expected.
If everyone has a degree, does that then diminish the value?

But then, I am just an angry old white man!!!:cool:

(the best to and for your daughter!!)

Sue Kiefer
11-12-2012, 10:12 AM
With the unemployment rate high,(Mimimum wage set at $7.25hr. usual wage for kids) and the costs of going to college getting higher.
Where do some think that all this extra money is coming from so my 2 kids can go to college FOR EXAMPLE?

Student Loans ? Yet some feel those rates should also be skyhigh??? :(
Frustrating.
Sue

mngundog
11-12-2012, 11:25 AM
Buzz

This is one of the areas the GOP needs to take a look at. There are many battles in a war. The GOP needs to learn to fight the battles they can win or more of the same will happen in four years. I am a conservative and have been for many years. They, the GOP, needs to realize the changes in America, adjust for the changes, and modernize to those changes or they will continue to be pushed into a corner as irrelevant.

My opinion

Richard
I have many problems with the GOP but this is not one of them, I would have no problem with any kid that achieves a certain test score (to prove their college material), being guaranteed a LOAN to go to a state school, however giving them free handouts to absolutely not necessary.

Marvin S
11-12-2012, 11:29 AM
From the posts on this subject it's apparent the thrill of earning something is not on some folks horizon - but it's OK for someone else to foot the bill for your children to get ahead :rolleyes:. I feel sorry for your kids as your attitude will be ingrained into their thoughts & haunt them for the rest of their life :(. So what do you do if your kids don't meet the new criteria?

huntinman
11-12-2012, 11:37 AM
What is the "new criteria"? Just saying they want to go? There are many kids going to college that would be better served if they were working a job, in the military or maybe learning a trade. Not all are cut out for it, yet our feel good society makes them all think they are geniuses if they can spell their names...

road kill
11-12-2012, 11:41 AM
What is the "new criteria"? Just saying they want to go? There are many kids going to college that would be better served if they were working a job, in the military or maybe learning a trade. Not all are cut out for it, yet our feel good society makes them all think they are geniuses if they can spell their names...
America desperately needs more Poly Sci majors!!!!!:cool:

JS
11-12-2012, 11:44 AM
The thought of even looking for a grant as you put it is just not how I was brought up. You want something you work for it.

You are pretty proud of working your way through school without taking any handouts. Rightfully so.

Maybe you have stated somewhere ... forgive me if I missed it ... did you and your husband get your education in private schools?

If not, was the cost of tuition a factor?

Have you forgotten that public schools are subsidized by the taxpayers in order to hold tuition down? So attending a public school IS in a sense "taking a handout". A sizable one at that.

I know you pay taxes, as do I, so that makes it just "getting back what you put in", but what about someone who does not take advantage of a public school? They still pay in. Were you going to school on their dime ... "taking a handout from them"? Even many poor people pay taxes, part of which goes to subsidize that public school whether they or their children will ever attend. Must be pretty humbling to think you took a handout from them.

JS

MooseGooser
11-12-2012, 12:01 PM
And many of us would like to see a VOUCHER system put in place that allows us to take that Tax money and use it for a Voucher, that would let us CHOOSE what school our kid goes to..
Competition is a very good thig..

Teachers unions wont agree..

of course not!

huntinman
11-12-2012, 12:05 PM
You are pretty proud of working your way through school without taking any handouts. Rightfully so.

Maybe you have stated somewhere ... forgive me if I missed it ... did you and your husband get your education in private schools?

If not, was the cost of tuition a factor?

Have you forgotten that public schools are subsidized by the taxpayers in order to hold tuition down? So attending a public school IS in a sense "taking a handout". A sizable one at that.

I know you pay taxes, as do I, so that makes it just "getting back what you put in", but what about someone who does not take advantage of a public school? They still pay in. Were you going to school on their dime ... "taking a handout from them"? Even many poor people pay taxes, part of which goes to subsidize that public school whether they or their children will ever attend. Must be pretty humbling to think you took a handout from them.

JS

That's pretty funny... sure they get public money... But the holding tuition down part is a joke. Compare tuition costs at post public univerities and the amount it has increased compared to everything else over the last 25 years. All the public subsidies are like all other tax money... wasted. College tuition is out of hand.

JS
11-12-2012, 12:18 PM
That's pretty funny... sure they get public money... But the holding tuition down part is a joke. Compare tuition costs at post public univerities and the amount it has increased compared to everything else over the last 25 years. All the public subsidies are like all other tax money... wasted. College tuition is out of hand.

Duh!! Do you think maybe the rising cost of tuition at public universities MAY be related to the CUTS to education that have been going on for how long???? That was an issue in this past election ... did you miss that?

JS

road kill
11-12-2012, 12:23 PM
Duh!! Do you think maybe the rising cost of tuition at public universities MAY be related to the CUTS to education that have been going on for how long???? That was an issue in this past election ... did you miss that?

JS
Not at all.......I think it's due to the compensation the labor gets.

The only people that can afford to attend some of these schools are the children of the people that work there!!!!:cool:

huntinman
11-12-2012, 12:27 PM
Duh!! Do you think maybe the rising cost of tuition at public universities MAY be related to the CUTS to education that have been going on for how long???? That was an issue in this past election ... did you miss that?

JS

No... I think these universities have plenty of money. Look at the edowments that many of them have. Look at the land grants that many of them have. They waste millions on administration, monuments to themselves on campus etc... Cut all that crap out and lower the tuition. Sell off the land these state universities own. Use the endowments...

Marvin S
11-12-2012, 12:30 PM
The only people that can afford to attend some of these scholls are the children of the people that are employed there!!!!:cool:

A slight correction - the children of employees of the system, in general, get a free ride, at someone else's expense. Just another free bus pass :).

Sue Kiefer
11-12-2012, 07:20 PM
Rest assured Marvin MY Kids work very hard for what they get. Daughter Soph. yr. HS top 10% in her class(taking advanced classes -Algebra and English) AND she is active in sports and helps at the kennel. She has dreams(She wants to become a Vet.)
My youngster (5th grade) test scores on recent state testing is at the hightest level.
He wants to play Hockey for the Pittsburgh Penguins and built me a house near the rink so that I can watch him play.
yes he's 10rs. old and allowed to dream big :)
Not looking for anything that they don't work for .
Sue

Marvin S
11-12-2012, 07:52 PM
Rest assured Marvin MY Kids work very hard for what they get. Daughter Soph. yr. HS top 10% in her class(taking advanced classes -Algebra and English) AND she is active in sports and helps at the kennel. She has dreams(She wants to become a Vet.)
My youngster (5th grade) test scores on recent state testing is at the hightest level.
He wants to play Hockey for the Pittsburgh Penguins and built me a house near the rink so that I can watch him play.
yes he's 10rs. old and allowed to dream big :)
Not looking for anything that they don't work for .
Sue

Not casting any reflection on your children, just saying if you have your hand out you are sending the wrong message :o. I've been through all those stages with the Children & Grand Children, fortunately they have been able to live life on their terms. They are all proud of being self sufficient, today :cool:.

murral stark
11-12-2012, 08:15 PM
Actually it is " you breed it you feed it". Absolutely no reason the taxpayers should be forced to pay for the iresponsible actions of others.

You honestly think that someone choosing to have children is irresponsible, or am I missing something here?

luvmylabs23139
11-12-2012, 08:43 PM
You honestly think that someone choosing to have children is irresponsible, or am I missing something here?

If they can't afford the child without leaching off the taxpayers then yes of course!

murral stark
11-12-2012, 09:59 PM
If they can't afford the child without leaching off the taxpayers then yes of course!

Would you say that if some life changing event occurred after they had children that they are still leeches? Car accident, work accident, illness to name a few. I get the feeling that you don't like children. Might be reading you wrong though.

Cody Covey
11-13-2012, 12:23 AM
Would you say that if some life changing event occurred after they had children that they are still leeches? Car accident, work accident, illness to name a few. I get the feeling that you don't like children. Might be reading you wrong though.

You shouldn't have children if you aren't prepared for life. Pregnancy isn't a magic spell we know what causes it...

HPL
11-13-2012, 05:58 AM
You honestly think that someone choosing to have children is irresponsible, or am I missing something here?

First, I would say that many children aren't born because the parents "chose" to have them, and second, yes, choosing to have children is very often extremely irresponsible. There are many, many, many, many people out there that have NO business having children, either because they are in no position financially to raise them, or because they are mentally, or constitutionally not suited. (just as not everyone should own a dog)

There are also plenty of folks in the world who don't really enjoy children. Up to this point, I have never regretted CHOOSING not to procreate.

M&K's Retrievers
11-13-2012, 08:21 AM
Under certain conditions having children can be the most irresponsible thing one can do.

charly_t
11-13-2012, 12:37 PM
You honestly think that someone choosing to have children is irresponsible, or am I missing something here?

YES ! For some people it is highly so. I see those people with their children every time I go to a store. I used to volunteer at a school and there are lots of parents who haven't a clue about being a good parent. A young family member is baby sitting a tiny child at this time and the mother of that child should never have had a child. NEVER !

Golddogs
11-13-2012, 04:35 PM
YES ! For some people it is highly so. I see those people with their children every time I go to a store. I used to volunteer at a school and there are lots of parents who haven't a clue about being a good parent. A young family member is baby sitting a tiny child at this time and the mother of that child should never have had a child. NEVER !

That poster child of the south, Honey Boo Boo comes to mind.

Should need permit to breed Regards

huntinman
11-13-2012, 04:41 PM
The South does not have proprietary rights on stupid people. Idiots like that can live anywhere... ever watch Jersey Shore?

murral stark
11-13-2012, 05:33 PM
It's another stereotype in our society. Ever notice that there aren't many TV personalities, news anchors, weather reporters, sports casters etc. that speak with a "southern accent". That's what Jeff Foxworthy says anyway.

HPL
11-13-2012, 05:33 PM
You honestly think that someone choosing to have children is irresponsible, or am I missing something here?

Would you perhaps like to re-think that question now?

murral stark
11-13-2012, 05:40 PM
Would you perhaps like to re-think that question now?

Nope not at all.

M&K's Retrievers
11-13-2012, 05:42 PM
Would you perhaps like to re-think that question now?

I doubt much thinking was involved.

Buzz
11-13-2012, 05:43 PM
Next thing you know, conservatives will be wanting the gooberment involved in enforcing Eugenics.

After all, it works for our dogs right?

murral stark
11-13-2012, 05:44 PM
I doubt much thinking was involved.

To you as I posted to Stan and another member. Let's not get personal.

luvmylabs23139
11-13-2012, 05:47 PM
Would you say that if some life changing event occurred after they had children that they are still leeches? Car accident, work accident, illness to name a few. I get the feeling that you don't like children. Might be reading you wrong though.

I just don't like being forced by the gov't to pay for other peoples kids.
Spent the morning at Brenners Childrens hospital with Magic. We go every week and he helps the kids with physical therapy. "Playing" with a dog is fun rather than "work".

HPL
11-13-2012, 05:52 PM
Next thing you know, conservatives will be wanting the gooberment involved in enforcing Eugenics.

After all, it works for our dogs right?

Well, as tempting as that sounds, I don't think I would go that far unless I was the one making the decisions, ;-) but, in all seriousness, I wouldn't object to eliminating the rewards (tax benefits, ADC, WIC payments, etc.) which the government dispenses for child production. We are long past the point where there is a need to encourage people to have children. Personally I would like to see some effort to reduce our numbers. No, I'm not suggesting killing folks or even letting grandma die. A little procreation discipline is all it really takes.

murral stark
11-13-2012, 05:54 PM
I just don't like being forced by the gov't to pay for other peoples kids.
Spent the morning at Brenners Childrens hospital with Magic. We go every week and he helps the kids with physical therapy. "Playing" with a dog is fun rather than "work".

I can only hope that you never fall upon hard times and need some government assistance. If you do have that misfortune come your way, I would hope that you stand by your principles and would rather starve than have somebody else's tax dollars help you.

luvmylabs23139
11-13-2012, 06:00 PM
Nope not at all.

So you are ok with Octomom?

HPL
11-13-2012, 06:04 PM
To you as I posted to Stan and another member. Let's not get personal.

Well, whereas I agree in principle, I'm not sure that there was any real alternative there. It really doesn't appear that your initial question was well thought out if thought out at all. I'm not saying that you personally are cognitively challenged, but it really seems to me that had you given the question much thought, you could easily have realized that indeed, from many people's perspective, it certainly can be very irresponsible to choose to have children.

M&K's Retrievers
11-13-2012, 06:35 PM
Well, whereas I agree in principle, I'm not sure that there was any real alternative there. It really doesn't appear that your initial question was well thought out if thought out at all. I'm not saying that you personally are cognitively challenged, but it really seems to me that had you given the question much thought, you could easily realized that indeed, from many people's perspective, it certainly can be very irresponsible to choose to have children.

I'll check with JD and see if he still has the step ladder. :D

Golddogs
11-13-2012, 06:44 PM
The South does not have proprietary rights on stupid people. Idiots like that can live anywhere... ever watch Jersey Shore?

Nope, I just need to go to Wal Mart to see ummmm, people like that. Only saw a few of the Jersey ummmmmmmmmmmm people on Leno or Letterman. There parents must be so proud.

And I see that the drunk one, wait I need to be more specific, The drunk girl, no wait, Snoopy has just had her very own baby. Wonder if there are any lingering alcohol related problems on the horizen.

Still think they should have a permit to Breed Regards

murral stark
11-13-2012, 06:47 PM
Well, whereas I agree in principle, I'm not sure that there was any real alternative there. It really doesn't appear that your initial question was well thought out if thought out at all. I'm not saying that you personally are cognitively challenged, but it really seems to me that had you given the question much thought, you could easily realized that indeed, from many people's perspective, it certainly can be very irresponsible to choose to have children.

At this point in the game I would not choose to have children. Young people make mistakes in their judgement. I don't condone having kids just to get more govt money in any way shape or form. I don't begrudge anyone that may fall upon hard times to get help. Have any of you that have the views you have ever made a youthful mistake? It appears to me that some here have never made a bad decision, or ever made a mistake. These people must surely walk on water by their self righteous posts. A coach of mine said to us once, "if you've never made a mistake. You've never made a decision."

Terri
11-13-2012, 07:34 PM
Honey Boo Boo and her family are all about the money. They are riding the money train right now and the mom is investing the money for all the kid's future needs. She was offered a bigger house, but refused. Seems she is smart enough to know that one day the ride will end. Unlike some of the athletes that by the time they are forty are dead broke because all they did was spend on cars and houses that need a consistent cash flow to maintain.
Terri

HPL
11-13-2012, 08:05 PM
Actually, Murral, my life has been one bad decision after another, but none that have so far caused the suffering of an innocent child, nor have I yet had to accept money from the government, except, of course the social security and veteran's survivor benefits which I received due to the death of my father when I was only six. That did make it much easier for me to go to college, although, since my dad was an electrical engineer with Standard Oil, had he not been killed on the hwy, by the time I was of college age, I believe that my family would have probably had sufficient means to at least assist with my college education. My mistakes have mostly been financial and career in nature, nothing that would get me in trouble with the law or even society at large (no drugs, no alcohol, no murder, etc., just mostly overeating and under-achieving). I have chosen my friends wisely, none have really gone down the wrong road (although some will have a beer or two now and then). My wife was one of the truly good choices. We were at a highschool reunion (40th) a few weeks ago and I really realized what an unusual lot my crowd is. All but one still married to original spice (plural of spouse around my house), none in jail, all with at least some college, most with at least a BS (and mostly BS as opposed to BA), and a fair number with advanced degrees. It's the all still married to original spouses that really knocks me out!! Also most (but not all) with kids, but none with a litter.

I don't begrudge the truly needy help, and people who start out right and have something bad and beyond their control happen should be helped, but NO ONE should have half a dozen kids, and no one who is already on public assistance should be having children. I am also opposed to just giving assistance to folks who are suffering from self inflicted wounds (drug addicts, drop-outs, etc.) Those folks need to work for their upkeep (clean streets, erase graffiti, scrape up gum, mow grass, clean toilets, or whatever needs to be done) They can paint houses and work in yards for folks who are actually unable to care for themselves or whatever, but I am really opposed to just giving stuff to able bodied people. They also need to get their food from a pretty restricted list of approved items (dried beans, rice, powdered milk, surplus cheese, and a whole chicken now and then, and a few fresh veggies). I don't want to see anyone paying for groceries with food stamps (or the equivalent) and then paying cash for cigarettes and beer. Just galls me. I was going to buy some ground beef and make a meat loaf last night, but lean ground beef is $4.80+/lb!!! Forget steak!! Ended up buying ground chicken (still about $3.00/lb). Put lots of beans, hominy, and oatmeal in the mix to stretch it out. Am beginning to think about the neighborhood cats ;-). Wonder what sparrow tastes like (they are about the only no season/no limit bird in Texas).

Larry Thompson1
11-13-2012, 09:29 PM
Wonder what sparrow tastes like (they are about the only no season/no limit bird in Texas).

I found that the Crowe has a little more flavor and is meatier. I too have to strech my money to eat.