PDA

View Full Version : "The devil is in the details"...



Uncle Bill
11-28-2012, 03:04 PM
...just another 'old' adage that keeps becoming more relative each day Obamacare's mandates become better known. What makes it all so much fun is when it is so ironic, as it begins to be implemented in the blue states.

For our POTUS members in Minnesoooota...get ready to grab your ankles.

UB

Things aren’t going so hot. The State of Minnesota just announced that their exchange has already exceeded cost estimates by 35% before it’s even implemented, and the cost to taxpayers is expected to rise another 18% in the first year after implementation.


ST. PAUL, Minn. (http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2012/November/26/minnesota-health-insurance-exchange.aspx) — Minnesota’s state health insurance exchange will cost $54 million in 2015 to operate, according to the Gov. Mark Dayton administration.

The cost comes in at greater than earlier estimates of $30 to $40 million. The state would not have to find the money until 2015, when the state exchanges are required to be financially self-sustaining. But the cost rises to a projected $64 million in 2016. State officials are still weighing how the exchange will pay for itself. Options include user fees, a sin tax, and selling ads.

The exchange, a cornerstone of the federal health care overhaul, will create an insurance marketplace where consumers and small businesses can comparison shop for health insurance policies starting in October of next year. Coverage would take effect in 2014.

The exchanges have always been a bad deal for states. They are “are an accounting trick designed to make ObamaCare look like less of a strain on the federal budget, shuffling billions of dollars in costs off Washington’s books and into state capitals,” writes John Hayward in Human Events (http://www.humanevents.com/2012/11/26/obamacare-in-crisis-as-2013-approaches/).

Let the federal government bear the cost of implementing this folly, not the states.

Gerry Clinchy
11-28-2012, 07:04 PM
I had started a thread a while back about the fact that if the States did not set up an exchange, then the Feds could do so for the states. However, an oversight in the writing of the law was that there was no funding for such Fed exchanges. Some states that were not setting up exchanges were focusing on that loophole.

Gerry Clinchy
11-28-2012, 07:07 PM
We always knew that this law would cost a whole lot more than we were being told it would cost. It's the way of central planning historically.

Not only does it cost something to insure millions more people for many more "conditions" than has been the norm, on top of that there is the incredibly huge bureaucratic cost to do so.

Larry Thompson1
11-28-2012, 08:05 PM
"We have to pass the bill to see whats in it". And the beat goes on. "We are all in this together". "Those of us that are a little more fortunate should pay a little more in taxes". PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESE can some one stop the bleeding? Those that voted for this need to pay for it! I didn't and don't want to. If we are all in this together where do I send my bills.

murral stark
11-28-2012, 08:20 PM
"We have to pass the bill to see whats in it". And the beat goes on. "We are all in this together". "Those of us that are a little more fortunate should pay a little more in taxes". PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESE can some one stop the bleeding? Those that voted for this need to pay for it! I didn't and don't want to. If we are all in this together where do I send my bills.

I usually send my bills to the address listed at the top of the bill. There's usually something on there that tells you where to mail it to.;) There's been a misconception played on the american people for a long time. It has been said that "there are 2 things that you have to do in life. Pay taxes and die." That is false, because the only thing you have to do is die. If you don't want to pay taxes, don't. Now you folks will say, " Yea, then the government puts you in jail for tax evasion."
WRONG ANSWER! The "government" doesn't put you in jail for not paying taxes. You are put in jail by a jury of your peers. If everybody that gets called for jury duty would find the defendants charged with tax evasion not guilty, the problem is solved. So when a person gets convicted of tax evasion, it's not the government, rather it's people on the jury. Until we can get a panel of jurors to aquit everybody for tax evasion, I guess we have to pay taxes or roll the dice and hope for a good jury.

Brad Turner
11-28-2012, 08:25 PM
I usually send my bills to the address listed at the top of the bill. There's usually something on there that tells you where to mail it to.;) There's been a misconception played on the american people for a long time. It has been said that "there are 2 things that you have to do in life. Pay taxes and die." That is false, because the only thing you have to do is die. If you don't want to pay taxes, don't. Now you folks will say, " Yea, then the government puts you in jail for tax evasion."
WRONG ANSWER! The "government" doesn't put you in jail for not paying taxes. You are put in jail by a jury of your peers. If everybody that gets called for jury duty would find the defendants charged with tax evasion not guilty, the problem is solved. So when a person gets convicted of tax evasion, it's not the government, rather it's people on the jury. Until we can get a panel of jurors to aquit everybody for tax evasion, I guess we have to pay taxes or roll the dice and hope for a good jury.
No dude. Even if you could possibly find a jury that would find you not guilty at all levels of appeal, this would go to the Supreme Court and they would decide that you are required to pay taxes. Period

Larry Thompson1
11-28-2012, 08:27 PM
[QUOTE=murral stark;1038440]I usually send my bills to the address listed at the top of the bill. There's usually something on there that tells you where to mail it to.;) There's been a misconception played on the american people for a long time. It has been said that "there are 2 things that you have to do in life. Pay taxes and die." That is false, because the only thing you have to do is die. If you don't want to pay taxes, don't. Now you folks will say, " Yea, then the government puts you in jail for tax evasion."
WRONG ANSWER! The "government" doesn't put you in jail for not paying taxes. You are put in jail by a jury of your peers. If everybody that gets called for jury duty would find the defendants charged with tax evasion not guilty, the problem is solved. So when a person gets convicted of tax evasion, it's not the government, rather it's people on the jury. Until we can get a panel of jurors to aquit everybody for tax evasion, I guess we have to pay taxes or roll the dice and hope for a good jury.[/QUOT
HUH? What? Who's gonna pay my bills? Remember we are all in this together, Right?

murral stark
11-28-2012, 08:40 PM
[QUOTE=murral stark;1038440]I usually send my bills to the address listed at the top of the bill. There's usually something on there that tells you where to mail it to.;) There's been a misconception played on the american people for a long time. It has been said that "there are 2 things that you have to do in life. Pay taxes and die." That is false, because the only thing you have to do is die. If you don't want to pay taxes, don't. Now you folks will say, " Yea, then the government puts you in jail for tax evasion."
WRONG ANSWER! The "government" doesn't put you in jail for not paying taxes. You are put in jail by a jury of your peers. If everybody that gets called for jury duty would find the defendants charged with tax evasion not guilty, the problem is solved. So when a person gets convicted of tax evasion, it's not the government, rather it's people on the jury. Until we can get a panel of jurors to aquit everybody for tax evasion, I guess we have to pay taxes or roll the dice and hope for a good jury.[/QUOT
HUH? What? Who's gonna pay my bills? Remember we are all in this together, Right?

Just protect you and your family, and your dogs of course, and don't sweat the rest of it. Control what you can control and don't worry about the rest. You have no control over it anyway, Right?

Brad Turner
11-28-2012, 08:43 PM
[QUOTE=Larry Thompson1;1038448]

Just protect you and your family, and your dogs of course, and don't sweat the rest of it. Control what you can control and don't worry about the rest. You have no control over it anyway, Right?

Please see my post in the "won't this be fun" thread.

murral stark
11-28-2012, 08:47 PM
[QUOTE=murral stark;1038458]

Please see my post in the "won't this be fun" thread.

I just responded to your post over there.

M&K's Retrievers
11-28-2012, 10:42 PM
I usually send my bills to the address listed at the top of the bill. There's usually something on there that tells you where to mail it to.;) There's been a misconception played on the american people for a long time. It has been said that "there are 2 things that you have to do in life. Pay taxes and die." That is false, because the only thing you have to do is die. If you don't want to pay taxes, don't. Now you folks will say, " Yea, then the government puts you in jail for tax evasion."
WRONG ANSWER! The "government" doesn't put you in jail for not paying taxes. You are put in jail by a jury of your peers. If everybody that gets called for jury duty would find the defendants charged with tax evasion not guilty, the problem is solved. So when a person gets convicted of tax evasion, it's not the government, rather it's people on the jury. Until we can get a panel of jurors to aquit everybody for tax evasion, I guess we have to pay taxes or roll the dice and hope for a good jury.

I found Cliff Clavin over here.

smillerdvm
11-30-2012, 10:16 AM
No dude. Even if you could possibly find a jury that would find you not guilty at all levels of appeal, this would go to the Supreme Court and they would decide that you are required to pay taxes. Period

Hey "dude" welcome to POTUS
Id say youre gonna fit right in here. Your post is short, bold and decisive

Your first sentence is 2 words & quite bold "No dude" then you close with an even shorter & BOLDER 1 one word sentenc "Period"

We all appreciate short bold statements that give the impression that they are dispositive on the subject and that nothing else can be or need be said.

The problem as I see it with your post is that everything you said between your opening & closing sentences is as wrong as can be.

You state "Even if you could possibly find a jury that would find you not guilty at all levels of appeal, this would go to the Supreme Court...."
That is wrong on a number of levels.
First appeals are handled by judges NOT jurys. So if the first jury finds you guilty you can ask for an appeal; but not to a jury. You can in fact ask for an appeal all the way up to the US supreme court if your conviction is upheld on all of your appeals. None of your appeals will be to a jury. However, and most importantly if the jury finds you Not guilty, then you dont have to worry about any subsequent judges {or Jurys} at the appellate level upholding that not guilty verdict, because the case is OVER. There can be no appeals. Period

Remember that Constitution thing that our recent leaders have tried to ignore? It still kinda applys. Period

Welcome to POTUS. I like your style. Dont feel embarressed by your error. It happens to most if not all if they are honest.
Additionally there is a large faction here in this echo chamber that will actually embrace you for your ability to be so blatantly wrong

Frequently someone will make a post alleging that something egregious has happened whereby our Pres is disresspecting our soldiers at military funerals or signing secret treatys in the UN to confiscate our guns or whatever. The echo chamber , claiming to be Patriots, will resound with angst and outrage at this slight and bemoan what is happening to our once great nation. Eventually someone will post up that the OP is false with links proving so.
That is when the outrage usually gets turned up here in the echo chamber. Strangely the outrage will be directed at the poster & or their source who actually revealed the truth.
A rational person would be correct in doubting this. If you find it hard to believe, then take some time and amuse yourself by checking the post history of the originator of this thread{or of the other most prolific POTUS poster named Bill}

It would seem to me that many of the alleged "Patriots" in the echo chamber are not really interested in the truth and whats best for the USA as they are in whats best for their party. What is being claimed as Patriotism is actually Partisanship and seems to be increasing IMHO, That to me doesn't bode well for the future of our Republic

HPL
11-30-2012, 10:30 AM
That vet types too fast for me. The term all are looking for is double jeopardy, and whereas that is the fun part of the show, it's not allowed under our constitution.

Don't really agree with most of the rest of his post, but he got that part on the money.

LokiMeister
11-30-2012, 10:52 AM
I usually send my bills to the address listed at the top of the bill. There's usually something on there that tells you where to mail it to.;) There's been a misconception played on the american people for a long time. It has been said that "there are 2 things that you have to do in life. Pay taxes and die." That is false, because the only thing you have to do is die. If you don't want to pay taxes, don't. Now you folks will say, " Yea, then the government puts you in jail for tax evasion."
WRONG ANSWER! The "government" doesn't put you in jail for not paying taxes. You are put in jail by a jury of your peers. If everybody that gets called for jury duty would find the defendants charged with tax evasion not guilty, the problem is solved. So when a person gets convicted of tax evasion, it's not the government, rather it's people on the jury. Until we can get a panel of jurors to aquit everybody for tax evasion, I guess we have to pay taxes or roll the dice and hope for a good jury.

No wonder Wisconsin is in such dire straits with people like you Murral.

paul young
11-30-2012, 11:27 AM
No wonder Wisconsin is in such dire straits with people like you Murral.


Wisconsin is in dire straits? Huh......?????

Marvin S
11-30-2012, 11:40 AM
We all appreciate short bold statements that give the impression that they are dispositive on the subject and that nothing else can be or need be said.

Welcome to POTUS. I like your style. Dont feel embarressed by your error. It happens to most if not all if they are honest.
Additionally there is a large faction here in this echo chamber that will actually embrace you for your ability to be so blatantly wrong

A rational person would be correct in doubting this. If you find it hard to believe, then take some time and amuse yourself by checking the post history of the originator of this thread{or of the other most prolific POTUS poster named Bill}

Methinks you are guilty of selective comprehension :-P.

BTW, I asked you some questions on the Veterans thread, but no answer. But that is something I have learned to expect from those so quick to point to other's perceived failings :).

huntinman
11-30-2012, 11:40 AM
That vet types too fast for me. The term all are looking for is double jeopardy, and whereas that is the fun part of the show, it's not allowed under our constitution.

Don't really agree with most of the rest of his post, but he got that part on the money.

The vet is a "she"

Brad Turner
11-30-2012, 11:54 AM
Hey "dude" welcome to POTUS
Id say youre gonna fit right in here. Your post is short, bold and decisive

Your first sentence is 2 words & quite bold "No dude" then you close with an even shorter & BOLDER 1 one word sentenc "Period"

We all appreciate short bold statements that give the impression that they are dispositive on the subject and that nothing else can be or need be said.

The problem as I see it with your post is that everything you said between your opening & closing sentences is as wrong as can be.

You state "Even if you could possibly find a jury that would find you not guilty at all levels of appeal, this would go to the Supreme Court...."
That is wrong on a number of levels.
First appeals are handled by judges NOT jurys. So if the first jury finds you guilty you can ask for an appeal; but not to a jury. You can in fact ask for an appeal all the way up to the US supreme court if your conviction is upheld on all of your appeals. None of your appeals will be to a jury. However, and most importantly if the jury finds you Not guilty, then you dont have to worry about any subsequent judges {or Jurys} at the appellate level upholding that not guilty verdict, because the case is OVER. There can be no appeals. Period

Remember that Constitution thing that our recent leaders have tried to ignore? It still kinda applys. Period

Welcome to POTUS. I like your style. Dont feel embarressed by your error. It happens to most if not all if they are honest.
Additionally there is a large faction here in this echo chamber that will actually embrace you for your ability to be so blatantly wrong

Frequently someone will make a post alleging that something egregious has happened whereby our Pres is disresspecting our soldiers at military funerals or signing secret treatys in the UN to confiscate our guns or whatever. The echo chamber , claiming to be Patriots, will resound with angst and outrage at this slight and bemoan what is happening to our once great nation. Eventually someone will post up that the OP is false with links proving so.
That is when the outrage usually gets turned up here in the echo chamber. Strangely the outrage will be directed at the poster & or their source who actually revealed the truth.
A rational person would be correct in doubting this. If you find it hard to believe, then take some time and amuse yourself by checking the post history of the originator of this thread{or of the other most prolific POTUS poster named Bill}

It would seem to me that many of the alleged "Patriots" in the echo chamber are not really interested in the truth and whats best for the USA as they are in whats best for their party. What is being claimed as Patriotism is actually Partisanship and seems to be increasing IMHO, That to me doesn't bode well for the future of our Republic

Touché.

While I appreciate the lesson in our legal system, my point was that one would never be allowed to neglect their requirement to pay taxes. I'm pretty sure there is precedent for that... ask Willie.

huntinman
11-30-2012, 12:04 PM
Touché.

While I appreciate the lesson in our legal system, my point was that one would never be allowed to neglect their requirement to pay taxes. I pretty sure there is precedent for that... ask Willie.

Hi Brad, don't let the good doctor ruffle your feathers... Most of her posts are like that and if you keep it up she may even bestow a new title upon you... She knighted Stan as the Wizard of Wisconsin... maybe you will be the Baron of Blountville??:rolleyes:

BonMallari
11-30-2012, 12:10 PM
Hi Brad, don't let the good doctor ruffle your feathers... Most of her posts are like that and if you keep it up she may even bestow a new title upon you... She knighted Stan as the Wizard of Wisconsin... maybe you will be the Baron of Blountville??:rolleyes:

I think Viceroy of Vegas has a nice tone to it...

road kill
11-30-2012, 12:24 PM
Touché.

While I appreciate the lesson in our legal system, my point was that one would never be allowed to neglect their requirement to pay taxes. I'm pretty sure there is precedent for that... ask Willie.
Post what you want in whatever style you want.
Don't listen to the old crab.:cool:
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b630/taylor1658/wickedwitchofthewest.jpg

Brad Turner
11-30-2012, 12:27 PM
Post what you want in whatever style you want.
Don't listen to the old crab.:cool:

I'm going to. I want to be The Baron! :p

huntinman
11-30-2012, 12:30 PM
I think Viceroy of Vegas has a nice tone to it...

Ha! Bon you would have to post a pic of yourself wearing a fedora and a houndstooth jacket if you had that handle:cool:

BonMallari
11-30-2012, 12:47 PM
Ha! Bon you would have to post a pic of yourself wearing a fedora and a houndstooth jacket if you had that handle:cool:

our former mayor has a deal with Beefeater Gin and has dressed up like the guy on their bottle....if I dressed up in a fedora and houndstooth coat I would probably be arrested by the Vice squad for pandering..

One of my favorite characters from FT's of yesteryear was Mr David Crow, he was a wealthy man from Louisiana who had multiple FC AFC and also won the National with NFC AFC Happy Playboys Pearl...he would dress in either a tweed or houndstooth jacket, sometimes including a shirt and tie and wear hats ala Tom Landry..heck of a generous gentleman to me and my brother..his idea of slumming would be to wear a turtleneck under a sportcoat with leather sleeve patches

road kill
11-30-2012, 12:48 PM
Hey "dude" welcome to POTUS
Id say youre gonna fit right in here. Your post is short, bold and decisive

Your first sentence is 2 words & quite bold "No dude" then you close with an even shorter & BOLDER 1 one word sentenc "Period"

We all appreciate short bold statements that give the impression that they are dispositive on the subject and that nothing else can be or need be said.

The problem as I see it with your post is that everything you said between your opening & closing sentences is as wrong as can be.

You state "Even if you could possibly find a jury that would find you not guilty at all levels of appeal, this would go to the Supreme Court...."
That is wrong on a number of levels.
First appeals are handled by judges NOT jurys. So if the first jury finds you guilty you can ask for an appeal; but not to a jury. You can in fact ask for an appeal all the way up to the US supreme court if your conviction is upheld on all of your appeals. None of your appeals will be to a jury. However, and most importantly if the jury finds you Not guilty, then you dont have to worry about any subsequent judges {or Jurys} at the appellate level upholding that not guilty verdict, because the case is OVER. There can be no appeals. Period

Remember that Constitution thing that our recent leaders have tried to ignore? It still kinda applys. Period

Welcome to POTUS. I like your style. Dont feel embarressed by your error. It happens to most if not all if they are honest.
Additionally there is a large faction here in this echo chamber that will actually embrace you for your ability to be so blatantly wrong

Frequently someone will make a post alleging that something egregious has happened whereby our Pres is disresspecting our soldiers at military funerals or signing secret treatys in the UN to confiscate our guns or whatever. The echo chamber , claiming to be Patriots, will resound with angst and outrage at this slight and bemoan what is happening to our once great nation. Eventually someone will post up that the OP is false with links proving so.
That is when the outrage usually gets turned up here in the echo chamber. Strangely the outrage will be directed at the poster & or their source who actually revealed the truth.
A rational person would be correct in doubting this. If you find it hard to believe, then take some time and amuse yourself by checking the post history of the originator of this thread{or of the other most prolific POTUS poster named Bill}

It would seem to me that many of the alleged "Patriots" in the echo chamber are not really interested in the truth and whats best for the USA as they are in whats best for their party. What is being claimed as Patriotism is actually Partisanship and seems to be increasing IMHO, That to me doesn't bode well for the future of our Republic

How gauche.:cool:

huntinman
11-30-2012, 12:55 PM
I think the only echoes may be in her head...

Franco
11-30-2012, 01:14 PM
Hey "dude" welcome to POTUS
Id say youre gonna fit right in here. Your post is short, bold and decisive

Your first sentence is 2 words & quite bold "No dude" then you close with an even shorter & BOLDER 1 one word sentenc "Period"

We all appreciate short bold statements that give the impression that they are dispositive on the subject and that nothing else can be or need be said.

The problem as I see it with your post is that everything you said between your opening & closing sentences is as wrong as can be.

You state "Even if you could possibly find a jury that would find you not guilty at all levels of appeal, this would go to the Supreme Court...."
That is wrong on a number of levels.
First appeals are handled by judges NOT jurys. So if the first jury finds you guilty you can ask for an appeal; but not to a jury. You can in fact ask for an appeal all the way up to the US supreme court if your conviction is upheld on all of your appeals. None of your appeals will be to a jury. However, and most importantly if the jury finds you Not guilty, then you dont have to worry about any subsequent judges {or Jurys} at the appellate level upholding that not guilty verdict, because the case is OVER. There can be no appeals. Period

Remember that Constitution thing that our recent leaders have tried to ignore? It still kinda applys. Period

Welcome to POTUS. I like your style. Dont feel embarressed by your error. It happens to most if not all if they are honest.
Additionally there is a large faction here in this echo chamber that will actually embrace you for your ability to be so blatantly wrong

Frequently someone will make a post alleging that something egregious has happened whereby our Pres is disresspecting our soldiers at military funerals or signing secret treatys in the UN to confiscate our guns or whatever. The echo chamber , claiming to be Patriots, will resound with angst and outrage at this slight and bemoan what is happening to our once great nation. Eventually someone will post up that the OP is false with links proving so.
That is when the outrage usually gets turned up here in the echo chamber. Strangely the outrage will be directed at the poster & or their source who actually revealed the truth.
A rational person would be correct in doubting this. If you find it hard to believe, then take some time and amuse yourself by checking the post history of the originator of this thread{or of the other most prolific POTUS poster named Bill}

It would seem to me that many of the alleged "Patriots" in the echo chamber are not really interested in the truth and whats best for the USA as they are in whats best for their party. What is being claimed as Patriotism is actually Partisanship and seems to be increasing IMHO, That to me doesn't bode well for the future of our Republic

So true!

Yes Doc, the echo chamber is out in full regalia sounding off as you stated.

Henry V
11-30-2012, 11:16 PM
I hate to bring this thread back on topic but ….

UB, The latest reports from Minnesota indicate that health care spending accounts for nearly 14 percent of the state's economy at $37.7 billion. The 2011 data also indicate that health care costs slowed to the smallest increase since 1997.

Even at your reported higher costs, the cost of the exchange will be 0.01432 percent (14/1000th of one percent) of annual health care spending in the state. The exchanges are a great idea to provide consumers with access to a variety of private insurance programs in a competitive marketplace. If the private marketplace competition works, it would sure seem that this tiny fraction of annual health care costs could be easily recovered. In addition, I wonder how much savings will be recovered by small and large businesses who now spend quite a few dollars on their own negotiating and administrating insurance enrollment for employees.

I for one am glad my state took the initiative to develop our own exchange rather than depend on the federal government.