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Gerry Clinchy
11-28-2012, 04:44 PM
http://townhall.com/columnists/michellemalkin/2012/11/28/obama_the_jobkilling_owlkiller


Over the Thanksgiving holiday, the White House released a big fat policy turkey: its final critical habitat rule for the endangered northern spotted owl. The Obama plan will lock up 9.6 million acres of land (mostly, but not all, federal) in Oregon, Washington and northern California. This is nearly double the acreage set aside by the Bush administration. Thousands of timber workers (along with untold thousands of related support jobs) will be threatened in the name of sparing a few thousand spotted owls from extinction.

As House Natural Resources Committee Chairman Doc Hastings, R-Wash., pointed out earlier this year, timber-dependent counties hit hard by the federal land grab and unending environmental litigation remain racked by high unemployment. "The loss in economic activity caused by the original spotted owl plan caused an astounding decrease in federal tax receipts of nearly $700 million per year -- all from rural Northwest communities."

Despite two decades of massive government intervention and the near-destruction of the northwest timber industry, the furry bird is vanishing faster than ever. According to the Smithsonian Magazine, "(t)imber harvest on 24 million acres of federal land had dropped 90 percent from its heyday" by the year 2000. Yet, northern spotted owls are now "disappearing three times faster than biologists had feared." Indeed, spotted owl populations in key parts of Washington State "are half what they were in the 1980s." And overall, the bird has seen a 40 percent decline over the past 25 years, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

Punishing loggers and bringing the timber industry to its knees have made vengeful environmental groups fat and happy. But the northern spotted owl they claim to care so much about is catastrophically worse off thanks to green zealotry. One root cause: habitat loss (thanks in part to raging wildfires resulting from poor forest management and green opposition to thinning/controlled burns).

The other major, nonhuman culprit: the barred owl.


These barred owls began migrating from the East Coast in the 1950s, and the USFWS reports that the larger, more aggressive and more adaptable birds "are known to displace spotted owls, disrupt their nesting and compete with them for food." Barred owls are more prolific breeders, less finicky about their food and less picky about where they live. They also don't bow down before the Endangered Species Act or the hallowed "threatened" status of its weaker brethren. They are brutal predators known to slam into spotted owls, slicing them with their talons and decapitating them in their nests.

Conservation groups whine that barred owls are victims of "scapegoating." But USFWS Director Dan Ashe spoke the truth earlier this year: "We can't ignore the mounting evidence that competition from barred owls is a major factor in the spotted owl's decline."


Instead of admitting failure and letting nature take its course, however, command-and-control bureaucrats have appointed themselves Mother Nature's judges, juries and executioners. Their "main priority" is "reducing competition from barred owls." How? By gunning them down. Final details are still in the works, but the agency has floated past removal schemes that involve "luring territorial barred owls into close range ... using recorded calls and an owl decoy. ... A shotgun would be used to prevent wounding and ensure rapid and humane death." Experts say such an eradication plan would need to continue for centuries.



One commenter added the following:

Seiche Wrote: (http://www.retrievertraining.net/social/Seiche-509237/comments/)3 hours ago (1:02 PM)



Nice review of the owl debacle Michelle. Having done research on another listed bird, the Marbled Murrelet, a seabird that needs old-growth trees for nesting habitat, I can verify that this is all about preventing tree harvest on public forest lands. The recent 9 million acre set aside contains no/few old-growth trees (>200 years old). Another point - the Barred Owl and Northern Spotted Owl are sibling species, i.e. they were one species once, then the east and west pop's were separated with habitat change since the last ice age. That is why they successfully hybridize to produce the "Sparred Owl" now that they are together again. The point - delist the Spotted Owl and let nature take its course.





In this case, maybe Mother Nature did know best to let hybridization take place so that a new species will survive? Owls certainly do provide a service in rodent control, and if a species is dying out, Mother Nature is providing another one to take its place.

Can you imagine if man had been around when the dinosaurs began to disappear? Mother Nature left us with enough nasty reptiles for the new situation that evolved.

Franco
11-28-2012, 05:01 PM
""(t)imber harvest on 24 million acres of federal land had dropped 90 percent from its heyday" by the year 2000."

The main reason timber harvest have dropped in these areas is because it is much more profitable for the timber/paper companies to harvest hybrid pine over old growth forrest. The timber industry has developed a mono-cultured hybrid pine that matures from pulp to board timber is less than 25 years. Grown in rows much like row crops, the scale of economy and ease of harvest has switched to tree plantations. Also, consider that it is much easier for the timber/paper companies to harvest on plantations they own over dealing the Feds on public land.

huntinman
11-28-2012, 05:09 PM
""(t)imber harvest on 24 million acres of federal land had dropped 90 percent from its heyday" by the year 2000."

The main reason timber harvest have dropped in these areas is because it is much more profitable for the timber/paper companies to harvest hybrid pine over old growth forrest. The timber industry has developed a mono-cultured hybrid pine that matures from pulp to board timber is less than 25 years. Grown in rows much like row crops, the scale of economy and ease of harvest has switched to tree plantations. Also, consider that it is much easier for the timber/paper companies to harvest on plantations they own over dealing the Feds on public land.

Norm, that you?... Been wondering what happened since Cheers went off the air:cool:

Franco
11-28-2012, 05:22 PM
Norm, that you?... Been wondering what happened since Cheers went off the air:cool:

Don't know anything about Norm as I never watched that TV show. I do know from being invested in timber that between the profileration of hybrid-pine plantations and the flood of Canadian timber that prices over the last ten years have hit rock bottom for both pulp and board timber.

HPL
11-28-2012, 05:36 PM
Norm, that you?... Been wondering what happened since Cheers went off the air:cool:

You mean Cliff.

huntinman
11-28-2012, 05:42 PM
You mean Cliff.

Your'e right! But Norm may be more fitting...

Gerry Clinchy
11-28-2012, 08:00 PM
Don't know anything about Norm as I never watched that TV show. I do know from being invested in timber that between the profileration of hybrid-pine plantations and the flood of Canadian timber that prices over the last ten years have hit rock bottom for both pulp and board timber.
Could they not use some of that public land for the tree farms?

HPL
11-28-2012, 09:44 PM
It really distresses me to hear hunters who seem to be so virulently anti-environment. I haven't read the spotted owl studies, nor have I read the EIS, but as a part owner of that PUBLIC land, to me, public land should not be used for the profit of private individuals or corporations, but for the enjoyment of the PUBLIC. I will also acknowledge that I don't know how logging works on public land, that is to say what requirements to restore habitat are imposed for instance. When the commenter said that very little was old growth, it wasn't disclosed how old the forest actually was. Has this land been logged before? Is it all regrowth? It is also a bit confusing that the environmentalists are preventing thinning and controlled burns. It was my impression that it is pretty well accepted that one of the big problems in our forests these days is the disastrous build up of fuel that is the result of old fire suppression practices.

As to people losing jobs, that is simply a function of changing times. How many whalers do you currently know? How about wheelwrights? If lumber use hasn't decreased in the US, then those jobs haven't been lost due to these forest closures but rather to mechanization and foreign competition.

Franco
11-28-2012, 10:12 PM
Could they not use some of that public land for the tree farms?

Don't know that much about farming public lands. I do know that they have to replant areas that are clear-cut. The problem with that is that they replant a mono-cultured hybrid and what was once a bio-diverse enrivonment becomes a mono-culture. Not long ago, timber companies ran TV ads claiming how they replant the forrest they cut. What they don't tell you is that they have destroyed a bio-diversed culture for a mono one.

The trend I see whether it is trees or ocean/freshwater fish is in farming on private land. Farming better preserves more of our last natural environment and is more profitable. The problem with today's mono-culture hybrid Pine plantations is the same with Catfish farming, they have all been over built. Too much supply has made profit margins too slim for most to survive. Add the imported Canadian timber and it compounds the problem. And like I mentioned earlier, it cost far less to harvest timber on a farm than on public land. At least with trees, if managed properly, most of it can survive disease and parasites until the market improves for harvest.

huntinman
11-28-2012, 11:24 PM
It really distresses me to hear hunters who seem to be so virulently anti-environment. I haven't read the spotted owl studies, nor have I read the EIS, but as a part owner of that PUBLIC land. To me, public land should not be used for the profit of private individuals or corporations, but for the enjoyment of the PUBLIC. I will also acknowledge that I don't know how logging works on public land, that is to say what requirements to restore habitat are imposed for instance. When the commenter said that very little was old growth, it wasn't disclosed how old the forest actually was. Has this land been logged before? Is it all regrowth? It is also a bit confusing that the environmentalists are preventing thinning and controlled burns. It was my impression that it is pretty well accepted that one of the big problems in our forests these days is the disastrous build up of fuel that is the result of old fire suppression practices.

As to people losing jobs, that is simply a function of changing times. How many whalers do you currently know? How about wheelwrights? If lumber use hasn't decreased in the US, then those jobs haven't been lost due to these forest closures but rather to mechanization and foreign competition.

You need to go to SE Alaska, WA State, Oregon and talk to some out of work loggers and maybe get a little more educated about logging on public land. You are falling for the media BS.

M&K's Retrievers
11-28-2012, 11:39 PM
Don't know that much about farming public lands. I do know that they have to replant areas that are clear-cut. The problem with that is that they replant a mono-cultured hybrid and what was once a bio-diverse enrivonment becomes a mono-culture. Not long ago, timber companies ran TV ads claiming how they replant the forrest they cut. What they don't tell you is that they have destroyed a bio-diversed culture for a mono one.

The trend I see whether it is trees or ocean/freshwater fish is in farming on private land. Farming better preserves more of our last natural environment and is more profitable. The problem with today's mono-culture hybrid Pine plantations is the same with Catfish farming, they have all been over built. Too much supply has made profit margins too slim for most to survive. Add the imported Canadian timber and it compounds the problem. And like I mentioned earlier, it cost far less to harvest timber on a farm than on public land. At least with trees, if managed properly, most of it can survive disease and parasites until the market improves for harvest.

Lizabeth!! It's the big one! ;-)

huntinman
11-28-2012, 11:42 PM
Lizabeth!! It's the big one! ;-)

:p

:p

:p

charly_t
11-28-2012, 11:55 PM
Lizabeth!! It's the big one! ;-)

LOL. Been a long time since I heard that line. Very "fitting" though.

WRL
11-29-2012, 10:03 AM
Don't know that much about farming public lands. I do know that they have to replant areas that are clear-cut. The problem with that is that they replant a mono-cultured hybrid and what was once a bio-diverse enrivonment becomes a mono-culture. Not long ago, timber companies ran TV ads claiming how they replant the forrest they cut. What they don't tell you is that they have destroyed a bio-diversed culture for a mono one.

The trend I see whether it is trees or ocean/freshwater fish is in farming on private land. Farming better preserves more of our last natural environment and is more profitable. The problem with today's mono-culture hybrid Pine plantations is the same with Catfish farming, they have all been over built. Too much supply has made profit margins too slim for most to survive. Add the imported Canadian timber and it compounds the problem. And like I mentioned earlier, it cost far less to harvest timber on a farm than on public land. At least with trees, if managed properly, most of it can survive disease and parasites until the market improves for harvest.

Boy, I don't know where you have been hiding but in the last two years, I have NEVER seen more logs being hauled or sitting in the lots for processing. Just spent 3 1/2 months outside of Longview WA and EVERY SINGLE DAY there were SEVERAL very large barges heading down the river to who knows where (I would guess Japan or Asia somewhere).

The logging industry is booming again. Weyerhauser and every other timber company is buying or leasing lands, and cutting and replanting like mad. Lots of it is being bought and MOST of that land is replanted and put in a rotation for logging once the new growth is ready.

Most of the "farmed" trees here in the Pac NW that I see are a cottonwood/willow tree that is harvested at about 20-25 years. That is used for paper.

WRL

Franco
11-29-2012, 10:08 AM
It really distresses me to hear hunters who seem to be so virulently anti-environment. I haven't read the spotted owl studies, nor have I read the EIS, but as a part owner of that PUBLIC land, to me, public land should not be used for the profit of private individuals or corporations, but for the enjoyment of the PUBLIC. I will also acknowledge that I don't know how logging works on public land, that is to say what requirements to restore habitat are imposed for instance. When the commenter said that very little was old growth, it wasn't disclosed how old the forest actually was. Has this land been logged before? Is it all regrowth? It is also a bit confusing that the environmentalists are preventing thinning and controlled burns. It was my impression that it is pretty well accepted that one of the big problems in our forests these days is the disastrous build up of fuel that is the result of old fire suppression practices.

As to people losing jobs, that is simply a function of changing times. How many whalers do you currently know? How about wheelwrights? If lumber use hasn't decreased in the US, then those jobs haven't been lost due to these forest closures but rather to mechanization and foreign competition.

Exactly! It is just not that profitable today in logging on public lands, period! The jobs lost is the northwest are the jobs created in the southeast where growing hybrid pine is the number one crop. In the gulf states, except for Texas, there is more land devoted to growing hybrid pine than cotton, soybean or corn. For more info on this I would suggest a visit to the US Dept of Agriculture . gov website. A much better read than trying to discuss the subject with folks that know nothing about the subject.

M&K's Retrievers
11-29-2012, 10:36 AM
Don't know anything about Norm ....


Don't know that much about farming public lands. ...


.... A much better read than trying to discuss the subject with folks that know nothing about the subject.

Red letter day

road kill
11-29-2012, 10:43 AM
Turns out, the Barred Owl is kicking the Spotted Owls AZZ!!!!!




..Obama the Job-Killing Owl-Killer

By Michelle Malkin | Michelle Malkin – Wed, Nov 28, 2012

Welcome to the pretzel logic of liberal environmental protection: In order to "save" owls, the Obama administration is going to shoot them dead.

This is not — I repeat not — an Onion parody.

Over the Thanksgiving holiday, the White House released a big fat policy turkey: its final critical habitat rule for the endangered northern spotted owl. The Obama plan will lock up 9.6 million acres of land (mostly, but not all, federal) in Oregon, Washington and northern California. This is nearly double the acreage set aside by the Bush administration. Thousands of timber workers (along with untold thousands of related support jobs) will be threatened in the name of sparing a few thousand spotted owls from extinction.

As House Natural Resources Committee Chairman Doc Hastings, R-Wash., pointed out earlier this year, timber-dependent counties hit hard by the federal land grab and unending environmental litigation remain racked by high unemployment. "The loss in economic activity caused by the original spotted owl plan caused an astounding decrease in federal tax receipts of nearly $700 million per year — all from rural Northwest communities."

Despite two decades of massive government intervention and the near-destruction of the northwest timber industry, the furry bird is vanishing faster than ever. According to the Smithsonian Magazine, "(t)imber harvest on 24 million acres of federal land had dropped 90 percent from its heyday" by the year 2000. Yet, northern spotted owls are now "disappearing three times faster than biologists had feared." Indeed, spotted owl populations in key parts of Washington State "are half what they were in the 1980s." And overall, the bird has seen a 40 percent decline over the past 25 years, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

Punishing loggers and bringing the timber industry to its knees have made vengeful environmental groups fat and happy. But the northern spotted owl they claim to care so much about is catastrophically worse off thanks to green zealotry. One root cause: habitat loss (thanks in part to raging wildfires resulting from poor forest management and green opposition to thinning/controlled burns).

The other major, nonhuman culprit: the barred owl.

These barred owls began migrating from the East Coast in the 1950s, and the USFWS reports that the larger, more aggressive and more adaptable birds "are known to displace spotted owls, disrupt their nesting and compete with them for food." Barred owls are more prolific breeders, less finicky about their food and less picky about where they live. They also don't bow down before the Endangered Species Act or the hallowed "threatened" status of its weaker brethren. They are brutal predators known to slam into spotted owls, slicing them with their talons and decapitating them in their nests.

Conservation groups whine that barred owls are victims of "scapegoating." But USFWS Director Dan Ashe spoke the truth earlier this year: "We can't ignore the mounting evidence that competition from barred owls is a major factor in the spotted owl's decline."

Instead of admitting failure and letting nature take its course, however, command-and-control bureaucrats have appointed themselves Mother Nature's judges, juries and executioners. Their "main priority" is "reducing competition from barred owls." How? By gunning them down. Final details are still in the works, but the agency has floated past removal schemes that involve "luring territorial barred owls into close range ... using recorded calls and an owl decoy. ... A shotgun would be used to prevent wounding and ensure rapid and humane death." Experts say such an eradication plan would need to continue for centuries.

Twenty years of regulatory salvation have failed the northern spotted owl. Who believes that another top-down government exercise in species engineering — this time backed with bullets — will do the trick? When the government picks winners and losers, taxpayers always get screwed. No matter the job losses. No matter the death toll. Arrogant and unaccountable central planners never give a hoot.

Michelle Malkin is the author of "Culture of Corruption: Obama and his Team of Tax Cheats, Crooks and Cronies" (Regnery 2010). Her e-mail address is malkinblog@gmail.com.

COPYRIGHT 2012 CREATORS.COM



Funny lady, mother nature!!!!!:cool:

Franco
11-29-2012, 10:53 AM
Red letter day

Too bad you can't read.

Ken Bora
11-29-2012, 10:58 AM
O.K. so the two owls that was one owl but was separated by the last ice age is coming back together and in some cases evolving into a new owl that could be said is just the original owl?

M&K's Retrievers
11-29-2012, 11:09 AM
Too bad you can't read.

Oh I can read, Franco. Too bad you can't take a joke.;)

road kill
11-29-2012, 11:13 AM
Oh I can read, Franco. Too bad you can't take a joke.;)

Secular progressives don't have senses of humor.:cool:

huntinman
11-29-2012, 11:21 AM
Secular progressives don't have senses of humor.:cool:

Neither do libs:rolleyes:

Ken Bora
11-29-2012, 11:24 AM
OUCH, thats a good one!!! - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC3rQxeal-U .

Gerry Clinchy
11-29-2012, 12:44 PM
O.K. so the two owls that was one owl but was separated by the last ice age is coming back together and in some cases evolving into a new owl that could be said is just the original owl?

That certainly is what is sounds like, doesn't it? Maybe Mother Nature planned it that way to preserve species?

HPL
11-29-2012, 12:48 PM
OUCH, thats a good one!!! - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC3rQxeal-U .

I don't understand the relevance, can you please explain. (this was a link to a stones video, right?)

Ken Bora
11-29-2012, 09:57 PM
Stan gave Franco 1 good hit to the body. ;)

JDogger
11-29-2012, 10:01 PM
Stan gave Franco 1 good hit to the body. ;)
It's not a joke if you have to explain it. JD

Franco
11-29-2012, 10:11 PM
Stan gave Franco 1 good hit to the body. ;)

I thought like most of his arguements, weak. ;)

BTW, RTF's KG used "just saying" for years here on RTF. Nothing original about it.

Ken Bora
11-29-2012, 10:13 PM
It's not a joke if you have to explain it. JD

never had to 'splain the Stones! ;)

WRL
11-30-2012, 12:10 AM
I thought like most of his arguements, weak. ;)

BTW, RTF's KG used "just saying" for years here on RTF. Nothing original about it.

KG copied it from Joe S. Joe S has said it from the beginning of time......or RTF time anyway.

WRL

Ken Bora
11-30-2012, 12:23 AM
KG copied it from Joe S. Joe S has said it from the beginning of time......or RTF time anyway.

WRL

ah yes, and Russ and Angie as well.
Classic RTF Regards :cool:

road kill
11-30-2012, 06:17 AM
I thought like most of his arguements, weak. ;)

BTW, RTF's KG used "just saying" for years here on RTF. Nothing original about it.
I explained in detail via a link what is REALLY happening to the spotted owl to cause his demise.
The BIGGER STRONGER more CLEVER barred owl is kicking the weaker spotted owl's ass!!!!:cool:



It's natures way!


How is that weak?
Sort of like the FALCONS over the Saint's.
Didn't someone proclaim the Saints dominace over the Falcons??????
That was weak........

Just sayin'..............:cool:

road kill
11-30-2012, 08:35 AM
KG copied it from Joe S. Joe S has said it from the beginning of time......or RTF time anyway.

WRL

ah yes, and Russ and Angie as well.
Classic RTF Regards :cool:

And I copied it from them.

SO?????

Deal wit' it!!!:cool:

JDogger
11-30-2012, 08:06 PM
An observation on owls.

I used to trap pigeons and keep them for shot flyers in training. I would take them to the 'ranch' in northern NM were we would mostly shoot them on training days. I say mostly because there were some fly-aways. Over a couple of years a few fly-aways started to inhabit the 'ranch' and our small barn and stable and breed. They also found the small bedroom balcony appealing. I ignored them. Then suddenly on a visit we noticed that we had a mating pair of great-horned owls in residence. Their presence was welcome, as skunks had become a problem.
Last year the few remaining pigeon piles diminished. I cornered the last couple pigeons in the barn this summer and dispatched then with 38 cal. shot shells.
Sadly now the owls have departed seeking greener pastures perhaps. The drought has had a severe effect on all our resident creatures. Even the skunks seem to have fled to the high country.
There are still a few rats and moles and coyotes about, but nothing like usual.
I think I'll trap a few pigeons this winter. I would like to see the owls return. I would like to see some rain or snow too. :(

JD

Gerry Clinchy
12-01-2012, 10:10 PM
The lastest in our local paper is how the dusky shark (from the mid-Atlantic to the Gulf Coast) is not doing well in the area, though other sharks are doing fine. So, there will be a new regulation that recreational fisherman cannot take any sharks under 8 feet from nose to fork in the tail. The regulation is currently 6 feet in length.

This isn't going to help the recreational fishing boats at the Jersey shore. According to one captain, it's rare for a dusky shark to get to 8 feet in length. Sharks that do get to 8 feet are generally too large to land, weighing a couple of hundred pounds.

While certainly humans have caused the demise of some species by whimsy, it is possible that Mother Nature arranges for some species to "expire" as part of the bigger picture. For example, maybe it would not be a good thing if dusky sharks were too large a portion of the shark population? Maybe we're just too dumb to know what would happen if their population were too large? Would they then be a danger to some other species?

thebigcat
12-02-2012, 08:01 AM
Then suddenly on a visit we noticed that we had a mating pair of great-horned owls in residence.

JD

I don't have a dog or owl in the fight but thought I may
add a little entertainment to the discussion.
"Nice set of hooters you got there..." Name that movie!

Ken Bora
12-02-2012, 10:57 AM
I don't have a dog or owl in the fight but thought I may
add a little entertainment to the discussion.
"Nice set of hooters you got there..." Name that movie!

I think the line was " What Knockers!!,". . ."Thank you Doctor"
http://www.angelfire.com/crazy3/rocky_horror/youngfrankensteinpics/what_knockers.jpg

M&K's Retrievers
12-02-2012, 11:24 AM
I don't have a dog or owl in the fight but thought I may
add a little entertainment to the discussion.
"Nice set of hooters you got there..." Name that movie!

Young Frankenstein

thebigcat
12-04-2012, 05:14 PM
Young Frankenstein

Both you and Ken are wrong. "Dumb and Dumber" of course!

Ken Bora
12-04-2012, 10:37 PM
I have never seen it, sounds um kinda dumb. was it good?

M&K's Retrievers
12-05-2012, 09:24 AM
Both you and Ken are wrong. "Dumb and Dumber" of course!

Don't know about "D And D", but never doubt me about "Young Frankenstein". :cool:


Doctor Frederick Frankenstein Gene Wilder):"What Knockers."
Inga (Teri Garr): "Oh, Thank you doctor."

thebigcat
12-05-2012, 09:29 AM
I have never seen it, sounds um kinda dumb. was it good?

One of the best comedies of all time.

Ken Bora
12-05-2012, 11:09 AM
so, its like blazing saddles and airplane?

M&K's Retrievers
12-05-2012, 02:29 PM
Don't know about "D And D", but never doubt me about "Young Frankenstein". :cool:


Doctor Frederick Frankenstein Gene Wilder):"What Knockers."
Inga (Teri Garr): "Oh, Thank you doctor."

In fact, it's on Direct TV channel 258 right now (1:31 Central). The knockers part has already happened.

thebigcat
12-05-2012, 02:46 PM
so, its like blazing saddles and airplane?

Check it out on imdb.com, it's got a huge cult following. It's shown on TV quite frequently.