Hiroshima VS. Detroit

[road kill]

Anyone get this e-mail?

I can't figure out how to post all the pictures, pm me you e-mail, I will send it to you!!

It's pretty amazing.
It is deliciously ironic.
It is devesatingly sad.......but true.

A nuclear bomb couldn't do what progressives can!!!:cool:







Guys, read all the way to the end, it’s not what you think, but will make you think!!





STATEMENT AT THE END SAYS IT ALL !

67 years later!



What happened to the radiation that
Lasts thousands of years?

HIROSHIMA 1945

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/wildchick243/hiro2.jpg


We all know that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed in August 1945
After the explosion of atomic bombs.
However, we know little about the progress made by the people of that land
During the past 67 years.


HIROSHIMA - 67 YEARS LATER


http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/wildchick243/hiro7.jpg




DETROIT- 67 YEARS AFTER HIROSHIMA
http://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u348/tunergye/IMG_3600.gif
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv31/Abepilk1976/Detroit%20Buildings/PikeandDetroitGeneralPics042209054.jpg



What has caused more long term destruction-
The A-bomb,
Or
Government welfare programs created to buy the
Votes of those who want someone to take care of them?

Japan does not have a welfare system.

Work for it or do without.


These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Can you think of a reason for not sharing this? Neither could I.

[coachmo]

Spot on, RK! Kinda hard to argue with this but I'm sure a couple of the "other" guys will give it a shot. What's sad is it's just not Detroit. There's plenty of places suffering a similar fate in the name of progressivism. You never hear about the number of major cities in America under Democrat rule and the continued decline and plight of it's citizens. Very good post, RK!

[jeff evans]

Thanks Stan for sharing that, I too could not find a reason for not sharing it as well! A little of topic but, as the real estate markets have plummeted around the country, WA D.C.'s market has continued to flourish through the entire recession, hmmmm!

[Uncle Bill]

Do you think it will take another 67 years, under the likes of the fools that voted in this current regime, to develope a lot more "Detroit's"?

UB

[blind ambition]

Very evocative story; emotional, hard hitting....but alas, inaccurate.

The Japanese do have a welfare system, try a simple google search for Japan Social Welfare System, check too on their National Healthcare System, it is regarded as one of the best run systems in the world.

As for the forlorn photos of an abandoned Detroit factory, cheer up mate there is plenty of room for optimism, here are some links which will put a smile on your face and a Made in America button back on your chest.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204624204577183232490039626.html
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2012/oct/13/accelerating-autos-tennessees-car-assembly/
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/06/these-are-americas-15-busiest-auto-plants/

There are lots of problems in the world worth fretting over, don't waste time on the red herrings.

[road kill]

Very evocative story; emotional, hard hitting....but alas, inaccurate.

The Japanese do have a welfare system, try a simple google search for Japan Social Welfare System, check too on their National Healthcare System, it is regarded as one of the best run systems in the world.

As for the forlorn photos of an abandoned Detroit factory, cheer up mate there is plenty of room for optimism, here are some links which will put a smile on your face and a Made in America button back on your chest.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204624204577183232490039626.html
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2012/oct/13/accelerating-autos-tennessees-car-assembly/
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/06/these-are-americas-15-busiest-auto-plants/

There are lots of problems in the world worth fretting over, don't waste time on the red herrings.
So then, where would you rather live right now, down town Hiroshima or down town Detroit????:D

[blind ambition]

I love Vancouver weather and wouldn't live anywhere else, I have lived in Japan and hated the humidity in the summer and the cold of winter, found the same to be true when I lived in Toronto and suspect that the climate in Detroit would be similar, so that's a no there for me too.

The important question is did the story you posted have sufficient truth to be credible and deserve worrying yourself over and the clear answer is, no it did not. Japan has a National Healthcare System and Social Welfare, and Detroit may have been put to death slowly over the years but Claycomo is rising and Dearborn is doing fine.

From the perspective of an outsider I am appalled by the ferocious level of animosity I see being whipped up to divide the population of the USA, it truly distresses me to see facts misrepresented to create unnecessary anxiety (not blaming you, I see you as an innocent victim here). A great nation has to be imbued with confidence from the top down and the bottom up and that just can't happen where lies and manipulation seek to replace truth and wisdom.

[road kill]

I love Vancouver weather and wouldn't live anywhere else, I have lived in Japan and hated the humidity in the summer and the cold of winter, found the same to be true when I lived in Toronto and suspect that the climate in Detroit would be similar, so that's a no there for me too.

The important question is did the story you posted have sufficient truth to be credible and deserve worrying yourself over and the clear answer is, no it did not. Japan has a National Healthcare System and Social Welfare, and Detroit may have been put to death slowly over the years but Claycomo is rising and Dearborn is doing fine.

From the perspective of an outsider I am appalled by the ferocious level of animosity I see being whipped up to divide the population of the USA, it truly distresses me to see facts misrepresented to create unnecessary anxiety (not blaming you, I see you as an innocent victim here). A great nation has to be imbued with confidence from the top down and the bottom up and that just can't happen where lies and manipulation seek to replace truth and wisdom.
In the past 18 months I have been to Tokyo Japan and Detroit MI.

I would not live in the city of Detroit or Pontiac or Dearborn for that matter, given a choice, I would live in Hiroshima, though I have only visited Canon HQ in the outskirts of Tokyo.

I "HATE" what has happened to Detroit.

But obviously, you know more...................

BTW---Who has governed Detroit for the last 50 years?
The proof is in the pudding.

But clearly, you know far more of what's going on than I, after all, you are a liberal.......my apologies.

Oh, and I have been to Vancouver (Wizards of the Coast HQ's), though not recently, lovely city.
Some call it San Francisco north.
I wonder why???

[murral stark]

I love Vancouver weather and wouldn't live anywhere else, I have lived in Japan and hated the humidity in the summer and the cold of winter, found the same to be true when I lived in Toronto and suspect that the climate in Detroit would be similar, so that's a no there for me too.

The important question is did the story you posted have sufficient truth to be credible and deserve worrying yourself over and the clear answer is, no it did not. Japan has a National Healthcare System and Social Welfare, and Detroit may have been put to death slowly over the years but Claycomo is rising and Dearborn is doing fine.

From the perspective of an outsider I am appalled by the ferocious level of animosity I see being whipped up to divide the population of the USA, it truly distresses me to see facts misrepresented to create unnecessary anxiety (not blaming you, I see you as an innocent victim here). A great nation has to be imbued with confidence from the top down and the bottom up and that just can't happen where lies and manipulation seek to replace truth and wisdom.


Very nicely worded. Thank you for your unbiased observation.

[road kill]

Very nicely worded. Thank you for your unbiased observation.

There you go Blind.....murral stark likes you post.

Cause it's unbiased.......


HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[blind ambition]

In the past 18 months I have been to Tokyo Japan and Detroit MI.

I would not live in the city of Detroit or Pontiac or Dearborn for that matter, given a choice, I would live in Hiroshima, though I have only visited Canon HQ in the outskirts of Tokyo.

I "HATE" what has happened to Detroit. Certainly, but do you know where and how to spread the blame for its decline?

But obviously, you know more................... Why would me knowing the Japanese have social programs or knowing that Detroit's obsolete factories are replace by modern facilities in Michigan and in a multiplicity of other States indicate that I know anything other about Detroit than that the story you posted was inaccurate?

BTW---Who has governed Detroit for the last 50 years? Do you believe that Detroit's plight is exclusively a failure of politics and if so would that be at the Municipal, State or Federal level.
The proof is in the pudding. What a curious analogy, but yes sometimes the ingredients of a pudding are too subtle to discern as single elements and just as in life, few things are entirely as simple as we might wish them to be.

But clearly, you know far more of what's going on than I, after all, you are a liberal.......my apologies. Is it an exclusively liberal trait to value truth over fiction? I think not and you do yourself and other non-liberals a disservice to suggest such a thing. Knowledge is not the preserve of one ideology or another but when information can be scrutinized and its veracity evaluated, how can the truth be rejected?

Oh, and I have been to Vancouver (Wizards of the Coast HQ's), though not recently, lovely city.
Some call it San Francisco north.
I wonder why??? I too have wondered at that comparison, I believe there is a symmetry between our undulating topographies and our shared importance as a deep sea port, which engenders such a compliment.


Sorry to take so long to reply I am working between bouts of hunt and peck typing.

[road kill]

Sorry to take so long to reply I am working between bouts of hunt and peck typing.

Very nice mastery of the language, for better than I.

I think perhaps the comparison of Vancouver as the SanFrancisco of the north is something other than geography.

Tell me, what do you think led to the degradation of the once proud city of Detroit??

George Bush???

And my answer would be the city fathers.
Poorly run and managed resulting in the pending bankruptcy.
They can no longer afford to pay what is required of them.
The biggest obstacle being the retired employees pensions.

Sorry I can't wax eloquent at your level.
You are very good.
But just because you use prettier words don't make your "feelings" fact.

Detroit is a rat hole, please enlighten me as to why????

BTW--I beleive we do have something in common, I prefer Monte Cristo #2's, I just got a box from the mother land!!!!

[blind ambition]

Detroit is a rat hole, please enlighten me as to why????


Stan, I am not arguing for or against the livability of Detroit...I posted links to information to correct a couple of major errors in the story which you posted, I was aghast that the author encouraged his reader to further disseminate his mendacious offerings. I have observed the tidal wave of such factually incorrect disinformation which passes for political discourse here and on occasion I just happen to care about the harm I see it doing to constructive dialog as to cause me to wade in with some facts rather than my opinion.

My opinion on the cause of Detroit's plight is that in a plural, complex society, blame for failure and responsibility for success is shared amongst a host of parties. Each has their place in an interactive cascade of cause and effect so as to make a rush to judgement against one and not all a foolhardy venture.

[Larry Thompson1]

Detroit, those of us from there call it Detoilet. It is indeed one of the finest examples of progressivism I have ever witnessed. Yes I seen it for myself. Once a proud working class city turned to ruin.

[Larry Thompson1]

A lot of us in other parts of the state are sick of it sucking up our tax dollars and wish Canada or Ohio would take it.....

We know you wish Ohio would because Ohio sucks. Well thats just the Mich fan that I am.

[road kill]

Stan, I am not arguing for or against the livability of Detroit...I posted links to information to correct a couple of major errors in the story which you posted, I was aghast that the author encouraged his reader to further disseminate his mendacious offerings. I have observed the tidal wave of such factually incorrect disinformation which passes for political discourse here and on occasion I just happen to care about the harm I see it doing to constructive dialog as to cause me to wade in with some facts rather than my opinion.

My opinion on the cause of Detroit's plight is that in a plural, complex society, blame for failure and responsibility for success is shared amongst a host of parties. Each has their place in an interactive cascade of cause and effect so as to make a rush to judgement against one and not all a foolhardy venture.

Just curious, do you have a link for the November manufacturing report?
Or hows about a link regarding vacant or abandoned land in Detroit being larger in acreage than the city of Paris France??

That couple with firsthand reports fron folks that live there paints a slightly different picture than what you "feel."

BTW--You glossed over the Monte Cristos, what's up wit dat?

[zeus3925]

Fro those who love to pin the demise of Detroit on Progressives aka democrats, there is a little fact you might be interested in. The beginning of Detroit's decline is generally ascribed to be the race riots which took place in 1967. The Democrats have occupied the Michigan house was occupied by George Romney, a republican, at that time. In fact there was a republican incumbent occupying the state house from 1963 -1982. Since 1963, when the new state constitution was passed, democrat governors served only 16 out of the 59 years. If something could have been done then certainly conservative principles could have been employed by republican governors to stop the slide. Instead, they diverted millions of dollars to the nefarious regimes of Mayor Coleman Young and his successors.

[road kill]

Fro those who love to pin the demise of Detroit on Progressives aka democrats, there is a little fact you might be interested in. The beginning of Detroit's decline is generally ascribed to be the race riots which took place in 1967. The Democrats have occupied the Michigan house was occupied by George Romney, a republican, at that time. In fact there was a republican incumbent occupying the state house from 1963 -1982. Since 1963, when the new state constitution was passed, democrat governors served only 16 out of the 59 years. If something could have been done then certainly conservative principles could have been employed by republican governors to stop the slide. Instead, they diverted millions of dollars to the nefarious regimes of Mayor Coleman Young and his successors.
So it IS Bush's fault???:confused:




Detroit councilwoman to Obama: We voted for you, now bail us out


Posted: Dec 05, 2012 6:00 AM CST
Updated: Dec 05, 2012 7:39 AM CST



DETROIT (WJBK) -- The city of Detroit faces a major financial crisis and one member of city council thinks President Barack Obama should step in and help.

City Council member JoAnn Watson said Tuesday the citizens support of Obama in last month's election was enough reason for the president to bailout the struggling the city. (Click the video player to listen)

"Our people in an overwhelming way supported the re-election of this president and there ought to be a quid pro quo and you ought to exercise leadership on that," said Watson. "Of course, not just that, but why not?"

Nearly 75 percent of Wayne County voters pulled the lever for Obama in November.

"After the election of Jimmy Carter, the honorable Coleman Alexander Young, he went to Washington, D.C. and came home with some bacon," said Watson. "That's what you do."

Young served as Detroit's mayor for 20 years and served as vice chairman of the Democratic National Committee from 1977 to 1981.

The White House has expressed no plans to bailout the cash-crunched city that some experts say could run out of money by the end of the year.

The federal government has bailed out cities in the past, however. In 1975, President Gerald Ford extended more than $2 billion in credit to New York City to help it avoid a financial collapse.


I don't understand, what's to bail out???
Things are going so well there..............

[Blackstone]

Having been born and raised in Detroit, I can tell you that Government welfare programs had little to do with the decline of the city. There were a series of far more damaging social, political, and economic factors at work that caused the current conditions. For the author of the article to suggest welfare programs led to the decline only shows how little they actually know about Detroit.

[road kill]

Having been born and raised in Detroit, I can tell you that Government welfare programs had little to do with the decline of the city. There were a series of far more damaging social, political, and economic factors at work that caused the current conditions. For the author of the article to suggest welfare programs led to the decline only shows how little they actually know about Detroit.
Enlighten us, tell us the real story.......

[Blackstone]

Enlighten us, tell us the real story.......

To delve into all the contributing issues would take far more time than I have today. However, the main factor is the loss of an economic base caused by the decline of the auto industry and other manufacturing. Most of the jobs in, and around Detroit, were in the auto industry, supported the auto industries, or were created as by-products of the auto industry. Many of the other manufacturing jobs were also out-sourced, and left Detroit. Surely, you don’t think those plants closed because the people of Detroit would rather be on welfare, and wouldn’t go to work. The jobs left, so there was no reason for the plants to be open.

Detroit had an industrial based economy. When the jobs left, people didn’t simply decide to go on welfare. The people left as well to look for employment elsewhere. The population of Detroit has declined from about 1.5 million in the 1970s (when manufacturing jobs started to leave) to a population of about 700k now. Detroit has lost about 25% of its population in the last 10 years.

With the loss of jobs, businesses, and population, came the loss of city revenues needed to run and support the city, so city services began to disappear, leading to further decline. Unfortunately, Detroit has not been able to attract enough new business to replace what it lost.

Like I said, there were many contributing factors to why this all happened, but welfare programs really wasn’t one of them.

[Blackstone]

A lot of us in other parts of the state are sick of it sucking up our tax dollars and wish Canada or Ohio would take it.....

When I was a kid, I remember Detroit contributing the majority of tax dollars, and the rest of the state sucking them up. How quickly we forget.

[RetrieverNation]

“The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money,” the French philosopher and historian Alexis de Tocqueville once said. Time to take a lesson from the French, even if it is painful.

[road kill]

“The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money,” the French philosopher and historian Alexis de Tocqueville once said. Time to take a lesson from the French, even if it is painful.
He was a very brilliant man.
I have quoted him here before, to ridicule.

Good post!

[road kill]

When I was a kid, I remember Detroit contributing the majority of tax dollars, and the rest of the state sucking them up. How quickly we forget.
If I am not mistaken, that was the point of the thread, how things have changed in the last 67 years.

[Blackstone]

If I am not mistaken, that was the point of the thread, how things have changed in the last 67 years.

Actually, it appeared to me the point of the article was to blame the changes on Government welfare programs, and that is not what happened. You asked me for the real story, and I tried to provide some of it. I think what I presented is a more plausible explanation than blaming it on welfare programs.

[road kill]

Liberals ran Detroit.
They killed it.
There is no money to pay their bills.

Like Margeret Thatcher said, "It's a great idea, until you run out of other peoples money."


The nation is heading down the same road....................

[Buzz]

A lot of us in other parts of the state are sick of it sucking up our tax dollars and wish Canada or Ohio would take it.....

I don't know what part of the state your are from, but from your screen name, I'd guess the UP. I grew up in Michigan. I have lived around Detroit, up in Western Northern Michigan around Manistee, and I lived in the UP for six years while I went to Michigan Tech. One thing that always made an impression on me was the impression around the state that all those poor black people around Detroit were sucking up all the welfare and medicaid. But my impression was that there was just as much poverty around the rest of the state, it's just more concentrated and more noticeable around the urban areas. So, I googled poverty rates and Michigan, and guess what? The poverty rate is higher in many rural areas than it is in Wayne County.

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/report_poverty_rates_for_rural.html

So, maybe it's time to poke your head up and take a look around...

[road kill]

I don't know what part of the state your are from, but from your screen name, I'd guess the UP. I grew up in Michigan. I have lived around Detroit, up in Western Northern Michigan around Manistee, and I lived in the UP for six years while I went to Michigan Tech. One thing that always made an impression on me was the impression around the state that all those poor black people around Detroit were sucking up all the welfare and medicaid. But my impression was that there was just as much poverty around the rest of the state, it's just more concentrated and more noticeable around the urban areas. So, I googled poverty rates and Michigan, and guess what? The poverty rate is higher in many rural areas than it is in Wayne County.

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/report_poverty_rates_for_rural.html

So, maybe it's time to poke your head up and take a look around...
So da yoopers destroyed Detroit??

That is rich!!!:cool:

[Blackstone]

Liberals ran Detroit.
They killed it.
There is no money to pay their bills.

Like Margeret Thatcher said, "It's a great idea, until you run out of other peoples money."


The nation is heading down the same road....................

Liberals running Detroit did not cause the decline of the auto industry.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause other manufacturing jobs to go overseas.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause businesses and jobs to leave.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause the decline in population.

Those are the things that really killed Detroit

[road kill]

Liberals running Detroit did not cause the decline of the auto industry.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause other manufacturing jobs to go overseas.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause businesses and jobs to leave.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause the decline in population.

Those are the things that really killed Detroit
I beleive it did indeed have an effect.
The liberals and da unions operate hand in hand ( or whatever metophor you want to use) and da union tells the liberals what to do.
They do it to get money and votes and this is the result.

There are numerous auto factories and supply manufacturers in the USA.
What happened??

Why did all of those things you listed happen?

It's as though you think it was "just one of those things."

There are reasons.................

[mngundog]

You are blaming the Union for mistakes of management, do you believe the management in the auto industry are liberals? If not,your kicking the wrong dog.

[Buzz]

Liberals running Detroit did not cause the decline of the auto industry.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause other manufacturing jobs to go overseas.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause businesses and jobs to leave.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause the decline in population.

Those are the things that really killed Detroit


Blackstone, it's hopeless. Go ahead and knock yourself out, but I think it's a waste of time to try and convince those who know nothing about Detroit that their ideological notions about what happened there are wrong.

[road kill]

You are blaming the Union for mistakes of management, do you believe the management in the auto industry are liberals? If not,your kicking the wrong dog.
So, how are these other plants operating around the country?
Liberal management?

Coleman Young was a model Mayor??
He made "all the right moves?"

Really?????

[Buzz]

you are blaming the union for mistakes of management, do you believe the management in the auto industry are liberals? If not,your kicking the wrong dog.

bingo!!!!!!

[Buzz]

So, how are these other plants operating around the country?
Liberal management?

Coleman Young was a model Mayor??
He made "all the right moves?"

Really?????

Didn't they go bankrupt or something?

[road kill]

Didn't they go bankrupt or something?
Who....Ford (up .025% @$11.35 a share today) or Toyota(down .025% today @ $85.27 a share) ????

Oh, wait, that was GM....but Obama saved them.........


But back to Detroit and how da yoopers destroyed it!

[menmon]

Houston has abandoned warehouses too...and a 1-5 wards were poor folks live. Do to environmental concerns much of this real estate stand abandoned and crumbling. Some of it eventually gets torn down and something takes its place. I'm sure detriot is no different than houston or any other big city. Japan is a small country and they don't have the dirt to build new on like we do...so land is rare so I would find it hard to believe that no commercial property does not get reused when someone leaves it.

Visit Holland and you will see the most utilized farm land that is farmed with the best practices to maximize production...because they have so few acres....unlike Texas where you see farmers go around rough spots because it is cheaper to not use than put in production.

Same story with abandoned buildings.

Not the Major's fault...just cheaper to move outside to the suburbs and not pay to support a crumbling infrastructure

[menmon]

Now that I have read the entire thread....it died because jobs were lost. Those jobs were lost to automation and cheaper labor outside our boarders that had to compete against a cheap Yen in the eighties. Detriot was caught off guard and management did not react soon enough but in the managements defense, cost had skyrocketed here because of inflation that was the fault of government. Republican President...Democrat congress

The town I was born in Port Arther, TX is a refinery town that was booming town even during the great depression....died from automation of the oil refineries. Not unions fault...just advances in technology that made it were a crack unit could be run by 2 people versus 200. Killed the city of Janus Joplin. I would not go into that city in the dark now. Democrats nor Republican could have saved it...and welfare did not kill it either

[caryalsobrook]

After reading all the posts, I can only come to one conclusion. DETROIT WAS A VICTUM!!!!!!;)

[zeus3925]

So da yoopers destroyed Detroit??

That is rich!!!:cool:

I lived both in the Lower and the Upper Peninsulas. The fundamental story of both places is both areas lost their economic base. It is a matter of economic geography. Cities continue to thrive as long as they have a reason for existence. When that reason weakens they either languish for decades or they become ghost towns as sure as some of the old mining towns in the west. The reasons for the Detroit's loss of that base are as legion as sand grains on a beach. In the U.P. it was a diminishing resource base as well as new technologies made mining more profitable elsewhere.

And no, Stan I didn't say it was W's fault.

Kindly lay off the Yoopers! They are the salt of the earth.

[charly_t]

.................................................. ...........................unlike Texas where you see farmers go around rough spots because it is cheaper to not use than put in production.......................................

Temptation has reared it's ugly head.

Sold 160 acres to city fellow. He or someone he leased the place to has filled the drain ditch that went through the field and are farming that low area. What he has done is made a top soil "wash away". The ditch ( read rough spot ) let the water from higher ground drain through the area without much loss of soil. On each side of that ditch was a narrow strip of unfarmed ground ( dandy place for the quail nests ). The rough ground not being farmed is not farmed for a good reason.....hard pan ( won't grow anything ), old oil spill, old salt water spill, rocks near the surface that will tear up expensive machinery, boggy area where you get tractors etc. stuck ( it is not ready to work at the correct time, crop planted later in that area would not be ready at the correct time to harvest etc. ). If they know what they are doing there is probably a good reason for the going around that area. Now if you got some company buying up land and farming it they may send green hands into the field and work the whole field. Doesn't mean it's being done right.

[road kill]

I lived both in the Lower and the Upper Peninsulas. The fundamental story of both places is both areas lost their economic base. It is a matter of economic geography. Cities continue to thrive as long as they have a reason for existence. When that reason weakens they either languish for decades or they become ghost towns as sure as some of the old mining towns in the west. The reasons for the Detroit's loss of that base are as legion as sand grains on a beach. In the U.P. it was a diminishing resource base as well as new technologies made mining more profitable elsewhere.

And no, Stan I didn't say it was W's fault.

Kindly lay off the Yoopers! They are the salt of the earth.
I am almost certain I am not the one who brought da yoopers into the conversation................

I spent a week in Escanaba one night!!!!:cool:

[zeus3925]

Its amazing how people who have never been to Detroit much less lived there like to tell us, who did live and work there, that they are instant experts on the problems of Detroit. Then there is the rusto-porngraphers that come from the outside and photograph the old Packard plant as if it tells Detroit's story. It doesn't. To those who want to pin the decline of Detroit on their own particular political demons, you should study up before you pontificate and thus show you don't know Jack.

Go Tigers!
Go Red Wings!

[road kill]

Its amazing how people who have never been to Detroit much less lived there like to tell us, who did live and work there, that they are instant experts on the problems of Detroit. Then there is the rusto-porngraphers that come from the outside and photograph the old Packard plant as if it tells Detroit's story. It doesn't. To those who want to pin the decline of Detroit on their own particular political demons, you should study up before you pontificate and thus show you don't know Jack.

Go Tigers!
Go Red Wings!

Please, enlighten us, what caused Detroit to get where is is today??
And if you think that city is doing well...................

You know, more abandoned acreage than the entire acreage of Paris????


BTW---I have been there, within the last 18 months and every decade since the 60's.
WOW!!!!!
Ain't Denny McClain's & Gordie Howe's Detroit.


The garden spot of the midwest!!!

Again, tell us what happened?????

[cotts135]

Equating the downfall of Detroit with Welfare programs is ridiculous.

[road kill]

Equating the downfall of Detroit with Welfare programs is ridiculous.
It is the result of liberalism fulfilled.
Not "equating" anything.

You have another reason??

Tell us what it is?????

[zeus3925]

Please, enlihgten us, what caused Detroit to get where is is today??

You know, more abandoned acreage than the entire acreage of Paris????


BTW---I have been there, within the last 18 months and every decade since the 60's.





WOW!!!!!
Ain't Denny McClain's & Gordie Howe's Detroit.


The garden spot of the midwest!!!

Again, tell us what happened?????

It is a whole college degree in economic geography, political policy, business practices, automation, labor relations, demographics, race relations, foreign competition, international trade deals, race relations, etc. For $7000 a semester I'll be glad to be your instructor.

PS: You mean Jail Bird Denny??

[cotts135]

What has caused more long term destruction-
The A-bomb,
Or
Government welfare programs created to buy the
Votes of those who want someone to take care of them?

Have Government programs caused Detroit to become what it is today? Has it contributed to Detroits downfall? It's is your post you need to defend those questions.

There are numerous reasons Detroit is where they are today, One of which is the auto industry which was that cities largest employer.There vision was flawed and their products were second rate.

Solely blaming Detroits downfall on "Liberalism fullfilled" is misleading at best

[caryalsobrook]

It is a whole college degree in economic geography, political policy, business practices, automation, labor relations, demographics, race relations, foreign competition, international trade deals, race relations, etc. For $7000 a semester I'll be glad to be your instructor.

PS: You mean Jail Bird Denny??
In a nutshell, Detroit FAILED TO COMPETE! So it can whine and complain it is a victum. Instead of spending $7000/semester(poor efficiency), how about just taking a look at what Tn, Al, Ms, Ky, Ga has done then you will see how to compete. This is where the auto industry resides and is doing quite well. Then again you probably call this foreign competition.:o
No I don't live in detroit, I live in Tn.(the US auto capital) and the US capital of the auto industry competes and is doing quite well. By the way nothing in the auto bailout helped nor was needed here. In fact probably hurt.

[road kill]

It is a whole college degree in economic geography, political policy, business practices, automation, labor relations, demographics, race relations, foreign competition, international trade deals, race relations, etc. For $7000 a semester I'll be glad to be your instructor.

PS: You mean Jail Bird Denny??

Should I have said Mickey Lolich or Gates Brown??:cool:

[mngundog]

In a nutshell, Detroit FAILED TO COMPETE! So it can whine and complain it is a victum. Instead of spending $7000/semester(poor efficiency), how about just taking a look at what Tn, Al, Ms, Ky, Ga has done then you will see how to compete. This is where the auto industry resides and is doing quite well. Then again you probably call this foreign competition.:o
No I don't live in detroit, I live in Tn.(the US auto capital) and the US capital of the auto industry competes and is doing quite well. By the way nothing in the auto bailout helped nor was needed here. In fact probably hurt.
Without the bailout GM wouldn't be pumping $460 million into the Spring Hill plant.

[menmon]

See if you vote democrat they vilianize you. Detroit votes democrat...no more need be said.

Just wait until Tenn falls victim to a change....I guess you can blame it on wellfare then too.

[caryalsobrook]

[QUOTE=menmon;1041520]See if you vote democrat they vilianize you. Detroit votes democrat...no more need be said.

We have complete control over our competiveness and none over the stupidity of the Fed Gov. rules and regulations. Just ask South Carolina about that.

As for spring hill, GM CLOSED THE PLANT, the only one in the state to do so. There were many offers to buy the plant from GM and without the bailout it would have been sold and the state WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER OFF!!!!! The plant would have reopened much sooner had it been sold. What was preserved by the bailout was GM ownership of the plant, the only union auto plant in Tn. THAT'S WHAT THE BAILOUT DID.;)

The only victim saved was DA UNION, as RK would say. Saturn was a loser and now I wonder what loser GM will create now. Oh I forgot, we may have GM bailouts ad infinitum.

[zeus3925]

Should I have said Mickey Lolich or Gates Brown??:cool:
That will work.

[BonMallari]

the Best things to come out of Detroit

1. Al Kaline

2. Bob Seeger and the Silver Bullet Band

3. Mitch Ryder

4. The Supremes

[zeus3925]

In a nutshell, Detroit FAILED TO COMPETE! So it can whine and complain it is a victum. Instead of spending $7000/semester(poor efficiency), how about just taking a look at what Tn, Al, Ms, Ky, Ga has done then you will see how to compete. This is where the auto industry resides and is doing quite well. Then again you probably call this foreign competition.:o
No I don't live in detroit, I live in Tn.(the US auto capital) and the US capital of the auto industry competes and is doing quite well. By the way nothing in the auto bailout helped nor was needed here. In fact probably hurt.

Nope, I call it TVA, a federal government corporation.

Compete with what? The textile industry? I see a lot of roads in Georgia that once lead to turpentine stills. Where are they now? Economic conditions change. Not all are communities are able to respond. No question there was some arrogance involved in the fall of Detroit. There certainly was a '"why fix it if it ain't broke mentality." But to lay the blame to one specific cause doesn't fully explain how the train wreck happened.

Detriot had a real advantage after World War II. Most of the world's non American auto production had destroyed and it took quite some time for foreign production to ramp up. When it did the initial results were a bit feeble. Remember three wheeled BMW Isettas with a motorcycle engine and a door in front. Or the early Hondas that were driven with a bicycle chain. But there techniques got better we then got that VW bug as sort of a niche car. The Japanese were able to capitalize on the oil embargo in 1973 when the Americans were still producing cars that were essentially a tennis court with two sofas in the middle. Management never saw it coming.

The Japanese cars may have been smaller but their quality control was excellent. GM was a poster car for turning out junk. It was management's action not union action that had a practice of pushing flawed vehicles out the door to get them quickly on the market and then hoped to fix them later. Remember the Vega and the Chevy Citation? Or how about the Ford Escort that should have had "Zippo " painted on the side? There was the mid 70s Chrysler products that would die in the middle of an intersection, sitting there like a big fat target.

Detroit's success had the seeds of it own destruction. As the plants were going like a house a fire in the 50's and 60's mechanization of agriculture was in full bloom in the south. This caused a migration out of fields into the industrial cities in the north--not only to Detroit but Chicago, Pittsburgh. Cleveland, Flint, etc. It created a surplus of labor. Many of the migrants were stuck in the unemployment trap and crime rates flourished. Those that could fled the central cities. Detroit didn't die, it just faded away to the suburbs.

Detroit has a dependency on a pretty limited base. But it did have other alternatives that it has not successfully pursued to full potential. It may surprise you that Detroit is the nation's second film capital. In fast, more film footage is done by Detroit based companies than Hollywood. It produces mostly of the industrial and advertising footage, but it has had some success like Gran Turino.

Localities that are dependent on one trick ponies are more vulnerable to decline than those that have a diversified economy.

[zeus3925]

There was also the "bus ticket incentive" to move sponsored by several southern states.

[zeus3925]

In a nutshell, Detroit FAILED TO COMPETE! So it can whine and complain it is a victum. Instead of spending $7000/semester(poor efficiency), how about just taking a look at what Tn, Al, Ms, Ky, Ga has done then you will see how to compete. This is where the auto industry resides and is doing quite well. Then again you probably call this foreign competition.:o
No I don't live in detroit, I live in Tn.(the US auto capital) and the US capital of the auto industry competes and is doing quite well. By the way nothing in the auto bailout helped nor was needed here. In fact probably hurt.

By the way, Cary, your assertion that the TVA states are now the center of auto production is not borne by facts. In terms of employment, Michigan is number one and Ohio is number two. The traditional car and parts production is still dominated by the North.

http://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iagauto.htm

[caryalsobrook]

[QUOTE=zeus3925;1041606]By the way, Cary, your assertion that the TVA states are now the center of auto production is not borne by facts. In terms of employment, Michigan is number one and Ohio is number two. The traditional car and parts production is still dominated by the North.

http://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iagauto.htm[/QUOT
I could be wrong but I have read that Michigan is #4 in the production of autos and Tn is #1. Maybe that is wrong. What I do know is that Nissan based in smyrna Tn. continues to increase production and new hires. Same for toyota, mercedes, vw, all based in the South. Not just yesterday and today, but for last year and the year before and before that. None needed a bailout. They did not need a bailout because they have maintained quality and kept their labor costs at a level that they can remain competitive(a responsibility of management, I might add). Looking at Detroit, one might surmise that is not the case there. In any event to say that the auto industry is dominated by the north is like saying a school with the large football stadium(tennessee?)dominates even though they have a losing team(and the fans are not showing up.

PS Interesting that you should associate TVA with the states. You might check the history of TVA. The Gov. seized far more land via imminant domain at very little cost and have been selling the excess land at huge profits. Talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly, you could also have a college degree when studying TVA.

[road kill]

State laying groundwork for managed bankruptcy for Detroit

Daniel Howes

Even as the state Treasury prepares to begin another financial review of Detroit's books, a plan is being solidified in the governor's office that would guide Michigan's largest city through what is being called a managed bankruptcy.

The working concept, still evolving, assumes that the state's financial review would find severe financial distress in Detroit, that Mayor Dave Bing and City Council would be unable to push through overdue restructuring, and that the process would culminate in appointment of an emergency financial manager under Public Act 72.

The case would be filed under Chapter 9 of the federal bankruptcy code, according to two ranking sources familiar with the situation, following efforts to reach prenegotiated settlements with as many key creditors — unions, vendors and pension funds among them — as possible before any filing.

"Clearly, we will always try to do that," one source familiar with the situation said in an interview Thursday. "You can move on a much more expedited basis if you can demonstrate that your cash is running out" — as Detroit clearly is with each passing week.

The evolving bankruptcy scenario is a clear signal that Gov. Rick Snyder and Treasurer Andy Dillon have lost confidence in the ability of the mayor, his management team and council to honor their commitments under the eight-month-old consent agreement with the state, or to make any meaningful progress on restructuring.

Contingency planning in Lansing for a possible Chapter 9 bankruptcy filing is not likely to be popular inside council chambers or the Mayor's Office. But it's the responsible and necessary thing to do, whatever the protests from the elected officials whose denial and self-delusion are hastening the arrival of a reckoning they can no longer avoid.

The goal of a managed bankruptcy is to streamline the protracted process by minimizing the chaos, uncertainty, delay and steep costs associated with Chapter 9. It would be the largest municipal bankruptcy in the nation's history, an unambiguous symbol of the city's epic failure and a chance for a fresh start.

"That's exactly the strategy you should do," said Douglas Bernstein, managing partner of Plunkett Cooney's banking, bankruptcy and creditor rights group. "You're never going to be able to get all the unions — and all you need — to agree in advance, not a chance. You try to do it outside of bankruptcy or you drop it in. It's prudent, too. It's very prudent."

In bankruptcy, pre-packaged deals arrange settlements with all creditors in advance of a filing that is usually followed quickly with a plan of reorganization (called "plan of adjustment" in Chapter 9). A pre-negotiated deal akin to the one being explored in the Governor's Office would reach settlements with some creditors and leave others to be litigated in court.

A Chapter 9 filing for Detroit may be increasingly likely given the dysfunction and infantile posturing atop City Hall. But bankruptcy is not yet certain, provided three obstacles can be removed or settled outside of court: pending litigation designed to slow the process; pension debt of $1.4 billion and $440 million in outstanding swap contracts; and liabilities for retiree health care.

Planning for a possible bankruptcy of Detroit should not be surprising coming from Snyder, an accountant-turned-CEO, and Dillon, a former investment banker. Both possess keen financial minds, strategic savvy and a habit for planning further ahead than most politicians, particularly the elected officials in Detroit flailing from one crisis to the next.

In anticipation of Detroit's financial collapse, for example, Dillon retained an investment banking firm in December 2010 — before taking office — to advise the Treasury on ways to restructure Detroit's balance sheet, reduce its liabilities and return the city's credit rating to investment grade.

City Council, by comparison, is blocking the mayor's effort to hire a local law firm, Miller Canfield, citing conflicts of interest. Nor has the city, likely about a month away from Snyder appointing an emergency financial manager, showed any inkling of forward planning and retained bankruptcy counsel.

It should, because there is no president of the United States or consortium of banks coming to the rescue. Both Public Act 72, the existing emergency financial manager law, and revised legislation that passed the House this week enable an emergency financial manager and his counsel to negotiate settlements with creditors in advance of a Chapter 9 filing.

Under Public Act 72, an emergency financial manager cannot move to abandon the city's financial workout plan in favor of bankruptcy until 180 days have passed. But the timeline to Chapter 9 filing can be accelerated if the city is in danger of running out of cash.

Still, bankruptcy for Detroit would require the governor to first appoint an emergency financial manager. The appointee would be charged with devising a financial plan, making it public and beginning the effort to execute it — unless the city's meager cash hoard runs out first.

It probably will, which is why the governor and his treasurer are taking their jobs seriously and planning for the worst. Someone has to.


From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121207/OPINION03/212070365#ixzz2EO8FL2Kr


Amazing..............

[menmon]

Need to clean it up....best thing that could happen

[zeus3925]

[QUOTE=zeus3925;1041606]By the way, Cary, your assertion that the TVA states are now the center of auto production is not borne by facts. In terms of employment, Michigan is number one and Ohio is number two. The traditional car and parts production is still dominated by the North.

http://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iagauto.htm[/QUOT
I could be wrong but I have read that Michigan is #4 in the production of autos and Tn is #1. Maybe that is wrong. What I do know is that Nissan based in smyrna Tn. continues to increase production and new hires. Same for toyota, mercedes, vw, all based in the South. Not just yesterday and today, but for last year and the year before and before that. None needed a bailout. They did not need a bailout because they have maintained quality and kept their labor costs at a level that they can remain competitive(a responsibility of management, I might add). Looking at Detroit, one might surmise that is not the case there. In any event to say that the auto industry is dominated by the north is like saying a school with the large football stadium(tennessee?)dominates even though they have a losing team(and the fans are not showing up.

PS Interesting that you should associate TVA with the states. You might check the history of TVA. The Gov. seized far more land via imminant domain at very little cost and have been selling the excess land at huge profits. Talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly, you could also have a college degree when studying TVA.

Here is another link. Michigan is still #1.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2012/07/american-made-index-which-automakers-affect-the-most-us-workers.html

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/12/map.us.auto/index.html

There are many reasons to a manufacturing facility along with labor cost. Important is the skill level of the work force. Also a consideration is the costs and availability of materials needed in manufacturing. Another is energy cost. (Thanks to TVA that provides a inexpensive source.) Other considerations are access to markets. Cost of real estate is another factor.

[caryalsobrook]

[QUOTE=caryalsobrook;1041665]

Here is another link. Michigan is still #1.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2012/07/american-made-index-which-automakers-affect-the-most-us-workers.html

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/12/map.us.auto/index.html

There are many reasons to a manufacturing facility along with labor cost. Important is the skill level of the work force. Also a consideration is the costs and availability of materials needed in manufacturing. Another is energy cost. (Thanks to TVA that provides a inexpensive source.) Other considerations are access to markets. Cost of real estate is another factor.
You are right and I was wrong. Some organization rates Tennessee the #1 auto state(whatever that means). I never said that labor was the only factor in Mich.'s lack of competiveness. Certainly there are many factors. as for TVA, it's electrical rates are not nearly as low as in the past. While at one time they had the lowest rates in the country, I don't believe that to be true today. You mention TVA as an advantage in the production of cars but fail to mention such things as the Fantom Freight Law requiring freight charges to be comuted as if the steel was shipped from Pittsburg, no matter where it was made, resulting in Mich and Ohio paying less in freight on steel than Tn would have. Not once have I blamed labor, on the contrary, labor can do nothing without the consent of mgmt. I remember when the UAW claimed that job security was the major point of bargaining and touted the new contract as "guaranteeing job security for it's members". Surely the union reps knes that job security goes only as far as the fiscal integrity of the company(barring Gov. bailouts).

There are many things that unions advocate that resrict comppetiveness but there are some that actually improve competiveness, long term labor contracts guaranteeing stability of labor costs over a period of time is an example. If you are to succeed, you must compete. If you cannot compete successfully, you fail

.
I do know one thing, barring gov. bailouts, the future of the auto industry in the south looks far better than in Mich. and ohio. It may not stay that way because evidently Mich appears ready to try something different than the ways that have gotten them in the shape they are.