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road kill
12-04-2012, 09:40 AM
Anyone get this e-mail?

I can't figure out how to post all the pictures, pm me you e-mail, I will send it to you!!

It's pretty amazing.
It is deliciously ironic.
It is devesatingly sad.......but true.

A nuclear bomb couldn't do what progressives can!!!:cool:







Guys, read all the way to the end, it’s not what you think, but will make you think!!





STATEMENT AT THE END SAYS IT ALL !

67 years later!



What happened to the radiation that
Lasts thousands of years?

HIROSHIMA 1945

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/wildchick243/hiro2.jpg


We all know that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed in August 1945
After the explosion of atomic bombs.
However, we know little about the progress made by the people of that land
During the past 67 years.


HIROSHIMA - 67 YEARS LATER


http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff168/wildchick243/hiro7.jpg




DETROIT- 67 YEARS AFTER HIROSHIMA
http://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u348/tunergye/IMG_3600.gif
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv31/Abepilk1976/Detroit%20Buildings/PikeandDetroitGeneralPics042209054.jpg



What has caused more long term destruction-
The A-bomb,
Or
Government welfare programs created to buy the
Votes of those who want someone to take care of them?

Japan does not have a welfare system.

Work for it or do without.


These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:

1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.

4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!

5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Can you think of a reason for not sharing this? Neither could I.

coachmo
12-04-2012, 10:42 AM
Spot on, RK! Kinda hard to argue with this but I'm sure a couple of the "other" guys will give it a shot. What's sad is it's just not Detroit. There's plenty of places suffering a similar fate in the name of progressivism. You never hear about the number of major cities in America under Democrat rule and the continued decline and plight of it's citizens. Very good post, RK!

jeff evans
12-04-2012, 12:19 PM
Thanks Stan for sharing that, I too could not find a reason for not sharing it as well! A little of topic but, as the real estate markets have plummeted around the country, WA D.C.'s market has continued to flourish through the entire recession, hmmmm!

Uncle Bill
12-04-2012, 04:09 PM
Do you think it will take another 67 years, under the likes of the fools that voted in this current regime, to develope a lot more "Detroit's"?

UB

blind ambition
12-04-2012, 04:19 PM
Very evocative story; emotional, hard hitting....but alas, inaccurate.

The Japanese do have a welfare system, try a simple google search for Japan Social Welfare System, check too on their National Healthcare System, it is regarded as one of the best run systems in the world.

As for the forlorn photos of an abandoned Detroit factory, cheer up mate there is plenty of room for optimism, here are some links which will put a smile on your face and a Made in America button back on your chest.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204624204577183232490039626.html
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2012/oct/13/accelerating-autos-tennessees-car-assembly/
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/06/these-are-americas-15-busiest-auto-plants/

There are lots of problems in the world worth fretting over, don't waste time on the red herrings.

road kill
12-04-2012, 04:25 PM
Very evocative story; emotional, hard hitting....but alas, inaccurate.

The Japanese do have a welfare system, try a simple google search for Japan Social Welfare System, check too on their National Healthcare System, it is regarded as one of the best run systems in the world.

As for the forlorn photos of an abandoned Detroit factory, cheer up mate there is plenty of room for optimism, here are some links which will put a smile on your face and a Made in America button back on your chest.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204624204577183232490039626.html
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2012/oct/13/accelerating-autos-tennessees-car-assembly/
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/06/these-are-americas-15-busiest-auto-plants/

There are lots of problems in the world worth fretting over, don't waste time on the red herrings.
So then, where would you rather live right now, down town Hiroshima or down town Detroit????:D

blind ambition
12-04-2012, 05:26 PM
I love Vancouver weather and wouldn't live anywhere else, I have lived in Japan and hated the humidity in the summer and the cold of winter, found the same to be true when I lived in Toronto and suspect that the climate in Detroit would be similar, so that's a no there for me too.

The important question is did the story you posted have sufficient truth to be credible and deserve worrying yourself over and the clear answer is, no it did not. Japan has a National Healthcare System and Social Welfare, and Detroit may have been put to death slowly over the years but Claycomo is rising and Dearborn is doing fine.

From the perspective of an outsider I am appalled by the ferocious level of animosity I see being whipped up to divide the population of the USA, it truly distresses me to see facts misrepresented to create unnecessary anxiety (not blaming you, I see you as an innocent victim here). A great nation has to be imbued with confidence from the top down and the bottom up and that just can't happen where lies and manipulation seek to replace truth and wisdom.

road kill
12-04-2012, 05:37 PM
I love Vancouver weather and wouldn't live anywhere else, I have lived in Japan and hated the humidity in the summer and the cold of winter, found the same to be true when I lived in Toronto and suspect that the climate in Detroit would be similar, so that's a no there for me too.

The important question is did the story you posted have sufficient truth to be credible and deserve worrying yourself over and the clear answer is, no it did not. Japan has a National Healthcare System and Social Welfare, and Detroit may have been put to death slowly over the years but Claycomo is rising and Dearborn is doing fine.

From the perspective of an outsider I am appalled by the ferocious level of animosity I see being whipped up to divide the population of the USA, it truly distresses me to see facts misrepresented to create unnecessary anxiety (not blaming you, I see you as an innocent victim here). A great nation has to be imbued with confidence from the top down and the bottom up and that just can't happen where lies and manipulation seek to replace truth and wisdom.
In the past 18 months I have been to Tokyo Japan and Detroit MI.

I would not live in the city of Detroit or Pontiac or Dearborn for that matter, given a choice, I would live in Hiroshima, though I have only visited Canon HQ in the outskirts of Tokyo.

I "HATE" what has happened to Detroit.

But obviously, you know more...................

BTW---Who has governed Detroit for the last 50 years?
The proof is in the pudding.

But clearly, you know far more of what's going on than I, after all, you are a liberal.......my apologies.

Oh, and I have been to Vancouver (Wizards of the Coast HQ's), though not recently, lovely city.
Some call it San Francisco north.
I wonder why???

murral stark
12-04-2012, 05:37 PM
I love Vancouver weather and wouldn't live anywhere else, I have lived in Japan and hated the humidity in the summer and the cold of winter, found the same to be true when I lived in Toronto and suspect that the climate in Detroit would be similar, so that's a no there for me too.

The important question is did the story you posted have sufficient truth to be credible and deserve worrying yourself over and the clear answer is, no it did not. Japan has a National Healthcare System and Social Welfare, and Detroit may have been put to death slowly over the years but Claycomo is rising and Dearborn is doing fine.

From the perspective of an outsider I am appalled by the ferocious level of animosity I see being whipped up to divide the population of the USA, it truly distresses me to see facts misrepresented to create unnecessary anxiety (not blaming you, I see you as an innocent victim here). A great nation has to be imbued with confidence from the top down and the bottom up and that just can't happen where lies and manipulation seek to replace truth and wisdom.


Very nicely worded. Thank you for your unbiased observation.

road kill
12-04-2012, 05:41 PM
Very nicely worded. Thank you for your unbiased observation.

There you go Blind.....murral stark likes you post.

Cause it's unbiased.......


HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

blind ambition
12-04-2012, 06:41 PM
In the past 18 months I have been to Tokyo Japan and Detroit MI.

I would not live in the city of Detroit or Pontiac or Dearborn for that matter, given a choice, I would live in Hiroshima, though I have only visited Canon HQ in the outskirts of Tokyo.

I "HATE" what has happened to Detroit. Certainly, but do you know where and how to spread the blame for its decline?

But obviously, you know more................... Why would me knowing the Japanese have social programs or knowing that Detroit's obsolete factories are replace by modern facilities in Michigan and in a multiplicity of other States indicate that I know anything other about Detroit than that the story you posted was inaccurate?

BTW---Who has governed Detroit for the last 50 years? Do you believe that Detroit's plight is exclusively a failure of politics and if so would that be at the Municipal, State or Federal level.
The proof is in the pudding. What a curious analogy, but yes sometimes the ingredients of a pudding are too subtle to discern as single elements and just as in life, few things are entirely as simple as we might wish them to be.

But clearly, you know far more of what's going on than I, after all, you are a liberal.......my apologies. Is it an exclusively liberal trait to value truth over fiction? I think not and you do yourself and other non-liberals a disservice to suggest such a thing. Knowledge is not the preserve of one ideology or another but when information can be scrutinized and its veracity evaluated, how can the truth be rejected?

Oh, and I have been to Vancouver (Wizards of the Coast HQ's), though not recently, lovely city.
Some call it San Francisco north.
I wonder why??? I too have wondered at that comparison, I believe there is a symmetry between our undulating topographies and our shared importance as a deep sea port, which engenders such a compliment.


Sorry to take so long to reply I am working between bouts of hunt and peck typing.

road kill
12-04-2012, 06:58 PM
Sorry to take so long to reply I am working between bouts of hunt and peck typing.

Very nice mastery of the language, for better than I.

I think perhaps the comparison of Vancouver as the SanFrancisco of the north is something other than geography.

Tell me, what do you think led to the degradation of the once proud city of Detroit??

George Bush???

And my answer would be the city fathers.
Poorly run and managed resulting in the pending bankruptcy.
They can no longer afford to pay what is required of them.
The biggest obstacle being the retired employees pensions.

Sorry I can't wax eloquent at your level.
You are very good.
But just because you use prettier words don't make your "feelings" fact.

Detroit is a rat hole, please enlighten me as to why????

BTW--I beleive we do have something in common, I prefer Monte Cristo #2's, I just got a box from the mother land!!!!

blind ambition
12-04-2012, 07:28 PM
Detroit is a rat hole, please enlighten me as to why????


Stan, I am not arguing for or against the livability of Detroit...I posted links to information to correct a couple of major errors in the story which you posted, I was aghast that the author encouraged his reader to further disseminate his mendacious offerings. I have observed the tidal wave of such factually incorrect disinformation which passes for political discourse here and on occasion I just happen to care about the harm I see it doing to constructive dialog as to cause me to wade in with some facts rather than my opinion.

My opinion on the cause of Detroit's plight is that in a plural, complex society, blame for failure and responsibility for success is shared amongst a host of parties. Each has their place in an interactive cascade of cause and effect so as to make a rush to judgement against one and not all a foolhardy venture.

Larry Thompson1
12-04-2012, 08:13 PM
Detroit, those of us from there call it Detoilet. It is indeed one of the finest examples of progressivism I have ever witnessed. Yes I seen it for myself. Once a proud working class city turned to ruin.

Larry Thompson1
12-04-2012, 08:28 PM
A lot of us in other parts of the state are sick of it sucking up our tax dollars and wish Canada or Ohio would take it.....

We know you wish Ohio would because Ohio sucks. Well thats just the Mich fan that I am.

road kill
12-05-2012, 05:19 AM
Stan, I am not arguing for or against the livability of Detroit...I posted links to information to correct a couple of major errors in the story which you posted, I was aghast that the author encouraged his reader to further disseminate his mendacious offerings. I have observed the tidal wave of such factually incorrect disinformation which passes for political discourse here and on occasion I just happen to care about the harm I see it doing to constructive dialog as to cause me to wade in with some facts rather than my opinion.

My opinion on the cause of Detroit's plight is that in a plural, complex society, blame for failure and responsibility for success is shared amongst a host of parties. Each has their place in an interactive cascade of cause and effect so as to make a rush to judgement against one and not all a foolhardy venture.

Just curious, do you have a link for the November manufacturing report?
Or hows about a link regarding vacant or abandoned land in Detroit being larger in acreage than the city of Paris France??

That couple with firsthand reports fron folks that live there paints a slightly different picture than what you "feel."

BTW--You glossed over the Monte Cristos, what's up wit dat?

zeus3925
12-05-2012, 07:50 AM
Fro those who love to pin the demise of Detroit on Progressives aka democrats, there is a little fact you might be interested in. The beginning of Detroit's decline is generally ascribed to be the race riots which took place in 1967. The Democrats have occupied the Michigan house was occupied by George Romney, a republican, at that time. In fact there was a republican incumbent occupying the state house from 1963 -1982. Since 1963, when the new state constitution was passed, democrat governors served only 16 out of the 59 years. If something could have been done then certainly conservative principles could have been employed by republican governors to stop the slide. Instead, they diverted millions of dollars to the nefarious regimes of Mayor Coleman Young and his successors.

road kill
12-05-2012, 08:04 AM
Fro those who love to pin the demise of Detroit on Progressives aka democrats, there is a little fact you might be interested in. The beginning of Detroit's decline is generally ascribed to be the race riots which took place in 1967. The Democrats have occupied the Michigan house was occupied by George Romney, a republican, at that time. In fact there was a republican incumbent occupying the state house from 1963 -1982. Since 1963, when the new state constitution was passed, democrat governors served only 16 out of the 59 years. If something could have been done then certainly conservative principles could have been employed by republican governors to stop the slide. Instead, they diverted millions of dollars to the nefarious regimes of Mayor Coleman Young and his successors.
So it IS Bush's fault???:confused:




Detroit councilwoman to Obama: We voted for you, now bail us out


Posted: Dec 05, 2012 6:00 AM CST
Updated: Dec 05, 2012 7:39 AM CST



DETROIT (WJBK) -- The city of Detroit faces a major financial crisis and one member of city council thinks President Barack Obama should step in and help.

City Council member JoAnn Watson said Tuesday the citizens support of Obama in last month's election was enough reason for the president to bailout the struggling the city. (Click the video player to listen)

"Our people in an overwhelming way supported the re-election of this president and there ought to be a quid pro quo and you ought to exercise leadership on that," said Watson. "Of course, not just that, but why not?"

Nearly 75 percent of Wayne County voters pulled the lever for Obama in November.

"After the election of Jimmy Carter, the honorable Coleman Alexander Young, he went to Washington, D.C. and came home with some bacon," said Watson. "That's what you do."

Young served as Detroit's mayor for 20 years and served as vice chairman of the Democratic National Committee from 1977 to 1981.

The White House has expressed no plans to bailout the cash-crunched city that some experts say could run out of money by the end of the year.

The federal government has bailed out cities in the past, however. In 1975, President Gerald Ford extended more than $2 billion in credit to New York City to help it avoid a financial collapse.


I don't understand, what's to bail out???
Things are going so well there..............

Blackstone
12-05-2012, 11:24 AM
Having been born and raised in Detroit, I can tell you that Government welfare programs had little to do with the decline of the city. There were a series of far more damaging social, political, and economic factors at work that caused the current conditions. For the author of the article to suggest welfare programs led to the decline only shows how little they actually know about Detroit.

road kill
12-05-2012, 11:27 AM
Having been born and raised in Detroit, I can tell you that Government welfare programs had little to do with the decline of the city. There were a series of far more damaging social, political, and economic factors at work that caused the current conditions. For the author of the article to suggest welfare programs led to the decline only shows how little they actually know about Detroit.
Enlighten us, tell us the real story.......

Blackstone
12-05-2012, 12:15 PM
Enlighten us, tell us the real story.......

To delve into all the contributing issues would take far more time than I have today. However, the main factor is the loss of an economic base caused by the decline of the auto industry and other manufacturing. Most of the jobs in, and around Detroit, were in the auto industry, supported the auto industries, or were created as by-products of the auto industry. Many of the other manufacturing jobs were also out-sourced, and left Detroit. Surely, you don’t think those plants closed because the people of Detroit would rather be on welfare, and wouldn’t go to work. The jobs left, so there was no reason for the plants to be open.

Detroit had an industrial based economy. When the jobs left, people didn’t simply decide to go on welfare. The people left as well to look for employment elsewhere. The population of Detroit has declined from about 1.5 million in the 1970s (when manufacturing jobs started to leave) to a population of about 700k now. Detroit has lost about 25% of its population in the last 10 years.

With the loss of jobs, businesses, and population, came the loss of city revenues needed to run and support the city, so city services began to disappear, leading to further decline. Unfortunately, Detroit has not been able to attract enough new business to replace what it lost.

Like I said, there were many contributing factors to why this all happened, but welfare programs really wasn’t one of them.

Blackstone
12-05-2012, 12:17 PM
A lot of us in other parts of the state are sick of it sucking up our tax dollars and wish Canada or Ohio would take it.....

When I was a kid, I remember Detroit contributing the majority of tax dollars, and the rest of the state sucking them up. How quickly we forget.

RetrieverNation
12-05-2012, 12:17 PM
“The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money,” the French philosopher and historian Alexis de Tocqueville once said. Time to take a lesson from the French, even if it is painful.

road kill
12-05-2012, 12:58 PM
“The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money,” the French philosopher and historian Alexis de Tocqueville once said. Time to take a lesson from the French, even if it is painful.
He was a very brilliant man.
I have quoted him here before, to ridicule.

Good post!

road kill
12-05-2012, 01:00 PM
When I was a kid, I remember Detroit contributing the majority of tax dollars, and the rest of the state sucking them up. How quickly we forget.
If I am not mistaken, that was the point of the thread, how things have changed in the last 67 years.

Blackstone
12-05-2012, 01:48 PM
If I am not mistaken, that was the point of the thread, how things have changed in the last 67 years.

Actually, it appeared to me the point of the article was to blame the changes on Government welfare programs, and that is not what happened. You asked me for the real story, and I tried to provide some of it. I think what I presented is a more plausible explanation than blaming it on welfare programs.

road kill
12-05-2012, 01:54 PM
Liberals ran Detroit.
They killed it.
There is no money to pay their bills.

Like Margeret Thatcher said, "It's a great idea, until you run out of other peoples money."


The nation is heading down the same road....................

Buzz
12-05-2012, 02:07 PM
A lot of us in other parts of the state are sick of it sucking up our tax dollars and wish Canada or Ohio would take it.....

I don't know what part of the state your are from, but from your screen name, I'd guess the UP. I grew up in Michigan. I have lived around Detroit, up in Western Northern Michigan around Manistee, and I lived in the UP for six years while I went to Michigan Tech. One thing that always made an impression on me was the impression around the state that all those poor black people around Detroit were sucking up all the welfare and medicaid. But my impression was that there was just as much poverty around the rest of the state, it's just more concentrated and more noticeable around the urban areas. So, I googled poverty rates and Michigan, and guess what? The poverty rate is higher in many rural areas than it is in Wayne County.

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/report_poverty_rates_for_rural.html

So, maybe it's time to poke your head up and take a look around...

road kill
12-05-2012, 02:12 PM
I don't know what part of the state your are from, but from your screen name, I'd guess the UP. I grew up in Michigan. I have lived around Detroit, up in Western Northern Michigan around Manistee, and I lived in the UP for six years while I went to Michigan Tech. One thing that always made an impression on me was the impression around the state that all those poor black people around Detroit were sucking up all the welfare and medicaid. But my impression was that there was just as much poverty around the rest of the state, it's just more concentrated and more noticeable around the urban areas. So, I googled poverty rates and Michigan, and guess what? The poverty rate is higher in many rural areas than it is in Wayne County.

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/report_poverty_rates_for_rural.html

So, maybe it's time to poke your head up and take a look around...
So da yoopers destroyed Detroit??

That is rich!!!:cool:

Blackstone
12-05-2012, 02:17 PM
Liberals ran Detroit.
They killed it.
There is no money to pay their bills.

Like Margeret Thatcher said, "It's a great idea, until you run out of other peoples money."


The nation is heading down the same road....................

Liberals running Detroit did not cause the decline of the auto industry.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause other manufacturing jobs to go overseas.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause businesses and jobs to leave.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause the decline in population.

Those are the things that really killed Detroit

road kill
12-05-2012, 02:21 PM
Liberals running Detroit did not cause the decline of the auto industry.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause other manufacturing jobs to go overseas.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause businesses and jobs to leave.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause the decline in population.

Those are the things that really killed Detroit
I beleive it did indeed have an effect.
The liberals and da unions operate hand in hand ( or whatever metophor you want to use) and da union tells the liberals what to do.
They do it to get money and votes and this is the result.

There are numerous auto factories and supply manufacturers in the USA.
What happened??

Why did all of those things you listed happen?

It's as though you think it was "just one of those things."

There are reasons.................

mngundog
12-05-2012, 02:39 PM
You are blaming the Union for mistakes of management, do you believe the management in the auto industry are liberals? If not,your kicking the wrong dog.

Buzz
12-05-2012, 02:41 PM
Liberals running Detroit did not cause the decline of the auto industry.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause other manufacturing jobs to go overseas.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause businesses and jobs to leave.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause the decline in population.

Those are the things that really killed Detroit


Blackstone, it's hopeless. Go ahead and knock yourself out, but I think it's a waste of time to try and convince those who know nothing about Detroit that their ideological notions about what happened there are wrong.

road kill
12-05-2012, 02:41 PM
You are blaming the Union for mistakes of management, do you believe the management in the auto industry are liberals? If not,your kicking the wrong dog.
So, how are these other plants operating around the country?
Liberal management?

Coleman Young was a model Mayor??
He made "all the right moves?"

Really?????

Buzz
12-05-2012, 02:41 PM
you are blaming the union for mistakes of management, do you believe the management in the auto industry are liberals? If not,your kicking the wrong dog.

bingo!!!!!!

Buzz
12-05-2012, 02:42 PM
So, how are these other plants operating around the country?
Liberal management?

Coleman Young was a model Mayor??
He made "all the right moves?"

Really?????

Didn't they go bankrupt or something?

road kill
12-05-2012, 02:44 PM
Didn't they go bankrupt or something?
Who....Ford (up .025% @$11.35 a share today) or Toyota(down .025% today @ $85.27 a share) ????

Oh, wait, that was GM....but Obama saved them.........


But back to Detroit and how da yoopers destroyed it!

menmon
12-05-2012, 02:55 PM
Houston has abandoned warehouses too...and a 1-5 wards were poor folks live. Do to environmental concerns much of this real estate stand abandoned and crumbling. Some of it eventually gets torn down and something takes its place. I'm sure detriot is no different than houston or any other big city. Japan is a small country and they don't have the dirt to build new on like we do...so land is rare so I would find it hard to believe that no commercial property does not get reused when someone leaves it.

Visit Holland and you will see the most utilized farm land that is farmed with the best practices to maximize production...because they have so few acres....unlike Texas where you see farmers go around rough spots because it is cheaper to not use than put in production.

Same story with abandoned buildings.

Not the Major's fault...just cheaper to move outside to the suburbs and not pay to support a crumbling infrastructure

menmon
12-05-2012, 03:46 PM
Now that I have read the entire thread....it died because jobs were lost. Those jobs were lost to automation and cheaper labor outside our boarders that had to compete against a cheap Yen in the eighties. Detriot was caught off guard and management did not react soon enough but in the managements defense, cost had skyrocketed here because of inflation that was the fault of government. Republican President...Democrat congress

The town I was born in Port Arther, TX is a refinery town that was booming town even during the great depression....died from automation of the oil refineries. Not unions fault...just advances in technology that made it were a crack unit could be run by 2 people versus 200. Killed the city of Janus Joplin. I would not go into that city in the dark now. Democrats nor Republican could have saved it...and welfare did not kill it either

caryalsobrook
12-05-2012, 05:35 PM
After reading all the posts, I can only come to one conclusion. DETROIT WAS A VICTUM!!!!!!;)

zeus3925
12-05-2012, 05:46 PM
So da yoopers destroyed Detroit??

That is rich!!!:cool:

I lived both in the Lower and the Upper Peninsulas. The fundamental story of both places is both areas lost their economic base. It is a matter of economic geography. Cities continue to thrive as long as they have a reason for existence. When that reason weakens they either languish for decades or they become ghost towns as sure as some of the old mining towns in the west. The reasons for the Detroit's loss of that base are as legion as sand grains on a beach. In the U.P. it was a diminishing resource base as well as new technologies made mining more profitable elsewhere.

And no, Stan I didn't say it was W's fault.

Kindly lay off the Yoopers! They are the salt of the earth.

charly_t
12-06-2012, 12:38 AM
.................................................. ...........................unlike Texas where you see farmers go around rough spots because it is cheaper to not use than put in production.......................................

Temptation has reared it's ugly head.

Sold 160 acres to city fellow. He or someone he leased the place to has filled the drain ditch that went through the field and are farming that low area. What he has done is made a top soil "wash away". The ditch ( read rough spot ) let the water from higher ground drain through the area without much loss of soil. On each side of that ditch was a narrow strip of unfarmed ground ( dandy place for the quail nests ). The rough ground not being farmed is not farmed for a good reason.....hard pan ( won't grow anything ), old oil spill, old salt water spill, rocks near the surface that will tear up expensive machinery, boggy area where you get tractors etc. stuck ( it is not ready to work at the correct time, crop planted later in that area would not be ready at the correct time to harvest etc. ). If they know what they are doing there is probably a good reason for the going around that area. Now if you got some company buying up land and farming it they may send green hands into the field and work the whole field. Doesn't mean it's being done right.

road kill
12-06-2012, 04:50 AM
I lived both in the Lower and the Upper Peninsulas. The fundamental story of both places is both areas lost their economic base. It is a matter of economic geography. Cities continue to thrive as long as they have a reason for existence. When that reason weakens they either languish for decades or they become ghost towns as sure as some of the old mining towns in the west. The reasons for the Detroit's loss of that base are as legion as sand grains on a beach. In the U.P. it was a diminishing resource base as well as new technologies made mining more profitable elsewhere.

And no, Stan I didn't say it was W's fault.

Kindly lay off the Yoopers! They are the salt of the earth.
I am almost certain I am not the one who brought da yoopers into the conversation................

I spent a week in Escanaba one night!!!!:cool:

zeus3925
12-06-2012, 06:12 AM
Its amazing how people who have never been to Detroit much less lived there like to tell us, who did live and work there, that they are instant experts on the problems of Detroit. Then there is the rusto-porngraphers that come from the outside and photograph the old Packard plant as if it tells Detroit's story. It doesn't. To those who want to pin the decline of Detroit on their own particular political demons, you should study up before you pontificate and thus show you don't know Jack.

Go Tigers!
Go Red Wings!

road kill
12-06-2012, 06:22 AM
Its amazing how people who have never been to Detroit much less lived there like to tell us, who did live and work there, that they are instant experts on the problems of Detroit. Then there is the rusto-porngraphers that come from the outside and photograph the old Packard plant as if it tells Detroit's story. It doesn't. To those who want to pin the decline of Detroit on their own particular political demons, you should study up before you pontificate and thus show you don't know Jack.

Go Tigers!
Go Red Wings!

Please, enlighten us, what caused Detroit to get where is is today??
And if you think that city is doing well...................

You know, more abandoned acreage than the entire acreage of Paris????


BTW---I have been there, within the last 18 months and every decade since the 60's.
WOW!!!!!
Ain't Denny McClain's & Gordie Howe's Detroit.


The garden spot of the midwest!!!

Again, tell us what happened?????

cotts135
12-06-2012, 06:26 AM
Equating the downfall of Detroit with Welfare programs is ridiculous.

road kill
12-06-2012, 06:32 AM
Equating the downfall of Detroit with Welfare programs is ridiculous.
It is the result of liberalism fulfilled.
Not "equating" anything.

You have another reason??

Tell us what it is?????

zeus3925
12-06-2012, 06:36 AM
Please, enlihgten us, what caused Detroit to get where is is today??

You know, more abandoned acreage than the entire acreage of Paris????


BTW---I have been there, within the last 18 months and every decade since the 60's.





WOW!!!!!
Ain't Denny McClain's & Gordie Howe's Detroit.


The garden spot of the midwest!!!

Again, tell us what happened?????

It is a whole college degree in economic geography, political policy, business practices, automation, labor relations, demographics, race relations, foreign competition, international trade deals, race relations, etc. For $7000 a semester I'll be glad to be your instructor.

PS: You mean Jail Bird Denny??

cotts135
12-06-2012, 06:56 AM
What has caused more long term destruction-
The A-bomb,
Or
Government welfare programs created to buy the
Votes of those who want someone to take care of them?

Have Government programs caused Detroit to become what it is today? Has it contributed to Detroits downfall? It's is your post you need to defend those questions.

There are numerous reasons Detroit is where they are today, One of which is the auto industry which was that cities largest employer.There vision was flawed and their products were second rate.

Solely blaming Detroits downfall on "Liberalism fullfilled" is misleading at best

caryalsobrook
12-06-2012, 07:14 AM
It is a whole college degree in economic geography, political policy, business practices, automation, labor relations, demographics, race relations, foreign competition, international trade deals, race relations, etc. For $7000 a semester I'll be glad to be your instructor.

PS: You mean Jail Bird Denny??
In a nutshell, Detroit FAILED TO COMPETE! So it can whine and complain it is a victum. Instead of spending $7000/semester(poor efficiency), how about just taking a look at what Tn, Al, Ms, Ky, Ga has done then you will see how to compete. This is where the auto industry resides and is doing quite well. Then again you probably call this foreign competition.:o
No I don't live in detroit, I live in Tn.(the US auto capital) and the US capital of the auto industry competes and is doing quite well. By the way nothing in the auto bailout helped nor was needed here. In fact probably hurt.

road kill
12-06-2012, 07:45 AM
It is a whole college degree in economic geography, political policy, business practices, automation, labor relations, demographics, race relations, foreign competition, international trade deals, race relations, etc. For $7000 a semester I'll be glad to be your instructor.

PS: You mean Jail Bird Denny??

Should I have said Mickey Lolich or Gates Brown??:cool:

mngundog
12-06-2012, 09:48 AM
In a nutshell, Detroit FAILED TO COMPETE! So it can whine and complain it is a victum. Instead of spending $7000/semester(poor efficiency), how about just taking a look at what Tn, Al, Ms, Ky, Ga has done then you will see how to compete. This is where the auto industry resides and is doing quite well. Then again you probably call this foreign competition.:o
No I don't live in detroit, I live in Tn.(the US auto capital) and the US capital of the auto industry competes and is doing quite well. By the way nothing in the auto bailout helped nor was needed here. In fact probably hurt.
Without the bailout GM wouldn't be pumping $460 million into the Spring Hill plant.

menmon
12-06-2012, 03:16 PM
See if you vote democrat they vilianize you. Detroit votes democrat...no more need be said.

Just wait until Tenn falls victim to a change....I guess you can blame it on wellfare then too.

caryalsobrook
12-06-2012, 03:57 PM
[QUOTE=menmon;1041520]See if you vote democrat they vilianize you. Detroit votes democrat...no more need be said.

We have complete control over our competiveness and none over the stupidity of the Fed Gov. rules and regulations. Just ask South Carolina about that.

As for spring hill, GM CLOSED THE PLANT, the only one in the state to do so. There were many offers to buy the plant from GM and without the bailout it would have been sold and the state WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER OFF!!!!! The plant would have reopened much sooner had it been sold. What was preserved by the bailout was GM ownership of the plant, the only union auto plant in Tn. THAT'S WHAT THE BAILOUT DID.;)

The only victim saved was DA UNION, as RK would say. Saturn was a loser and now I wonder what loser GM will create now. Oh I forgot, we may have GM bailouts ad infinitum.

zeus3925
12-06-2012, 04:39 PM
Should I have said Mickey Lolich or Gates Brown??:cool:
That will work.

BonMallari
12-06-2012, 04:57 PM
the Best things to come out of Detroit

1. Al Kaline

2. Bob Seeger and the Silver Bullet Band

3. Mitch Ryder

4. The Supremes

zeus3925
12-06-2012, 05:40 PM
In a nutshell, Detroit FAILED TO COMPETE! So it can whine and complain it is a victum. Instead of spending $7000/semester(poor efficiency), how about just taking a look at what Tn, Al, Ms, Ky, Ga has done then you will see how to compete. This is where the auto industry resides and is doing quite well. Then again you probably call this foreign competition.:o
No I don't live in detroit, I live in Tn.(the US auto capital) and the US capital of the auto industry competes and is doing quite well. By the way nothing in the auto bailout helped nor was needed here. In fact probably hurt.

Nope, I call it TVA, a federal government corporation.

Compete with what? The textile industry? I see a lot of roads in Georgia that once lead to turpentine stills. Where are they now? Economic conditions change. Not all are communities are able to respond. No question there was some arrogance involved in the fall of Detroit. There certainly was a '"why fix it if it ain't broke mentality." But to lay the blame to one specific cause doesn't fully explain how the train wreck happened.

Detriot had a real advantage after World War II. Most of the world's non American auto production had destroyed and it took quite some time for foreign production to ramp up. When it did the initial results were a bit feeble. Remember three wheeled BMW Isettas with a motorcycle engine and a door in front. Or the early Hondas that were driven with a bicycle chain. But there techniques got better we then got that VW bug as sort of a niche car. The Japanese were able to capitalize on the oil embargo in 1973 when the Americans were still producing cars that were essentially a tennis court with two sofas in the middle. Management never saw it coming.

The Japanese cars may have been smaller but their quality control was excellent. GM was a poster car for turning out junk. It was management's action not union action that had a practice of pushing flawed vehicles out the door to get them quickly on the market and then hoped to fix them later. Remember the Vega and the Chevy Citation? Or how about the Ford Escort that should have had "Zippo " painted on the side? There was the mid 70s Chrysler products that would die in the middle of an intersection, sitting there like a big fat target.

Detroit's success had the seeds of it own destruction. As the plants were going like a house a fire in the 50's and 60's mechanization of agriculture was in full bloom in the south. This caused a migration out of fields into the industrial cities in the north--not only to Detroit but Chicago, Pittsburgh. Cleveland, Flint, etc. It created a surplus of labor. Many of the migrants were stuck in the unemployment trap and crime rates flourished. Those that could fled the central cities. Detroit didn't die, it just faded away to the suburbs.

Detroit has a dependency on a pretty limited base. But it did have other alternatives that it has not successfully pursued to full potential. It may surprise you that Detroit is the nation's second film capital. In fast, more film footage is done by Detroit based companies than Hollywood. It produces mostly of the industrial and advertising footage, but it has had some success like Gran Turino.

Localities that are dependent on one trick ponies are more vulnerable to decline than those that have a diversified economy.

zeus3925
12-06-2012, 06:47 PM
There was also the "bus ticket incentive" to move sponsored by several southern states.

zeus3925
12-06-2012, 07:06 PM
In a nutshell, Detroit FAILED TO COMPETE! So it can whine and complain it is a victum. Instead of spending $7000/semester(poor efficiency), how about just taking a look at what Tn, Al, Ms, Ky, Ga has done then you will see how to compete. This is where the auto industry resides and is doing quite well. Then again you probably call this foreign competition.:o
No I don't live in detroit, I live in Tn.(the US auto capital) and the US capital of the auto industry competes and is doing quite well. By the way nothing in the auto bailout helped nor was needed here. In fact probably hurt.

By the way, Cary, your assertion that the TVA states are now the center of auto production is not borne by facts. In terms of employment, Michigan is number one and Ohio is number two. The traditional car and parts production is still dominated by the North.

http://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iagauto.htm

caryalsobrook
12-06-2012, 10:09 PM
[QUOTE=zeus3925;1041606]By the way, Cary, your assertion that the TVA states are now the center of auto production is not borne by facts. In terms of employment, Michigan is number one and Ohio is number two. The traditional car and parts production is still dominated by the North.

http://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iagauto.htm[/QUOT
I could be wrong but I have read that Michigan is #4 in the production of autos and Tn is #1. Maybe that is wrong. What I do know is that Nissan based in smyrna Tn. continues to increase production and new hires. Same for toyota, mercedes, vw, all based in the South. Not just yesterday and today, but for last year and the year before and before that. None needed a bailout. They did not need a bailout because they have maintained quality and kept their labor costs at a level that they can remain competitive(a responsibility of management, I might add). Looking at Detroit, one might surmise that is not the case there. In any event to say that the auto industry is dominated by the north is like saying a school with the large football stadium(tennessee?)dominates even though they have a losing team(and the fans are not showing up.

PS Interesting that you should associate TVA with the states. You might check the history of TVA. The Gov. seized far more land via imminant domain at very little cost and have been selling the excess land at huge profits. Talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly, you could also have a college degree when studying TVA.

road kill
12-07-2012, 11:28 AM
State laying groundwork for managed bankruptcy for Detroit

Daniel Howes

Even as the state Treasury prepares to begin another financial review of Detroit's books, a plan is being solidified in the governor's office that would guide Michigan's largest city through what is being called a managed bankruptcy.

The working concept, still evolving, assumes that the state's financial review would find severe financial distress in Detroit, that Mayor Dave Bing and City Council would be unable to push through overdue restructuring, and that the process would culminate in appointment of an emergency financial manager under Public Act 72.

The case would be filed under Chapter 9 of the federal bankruptcy code, according to two ranking sources familiar with the situation, following efforts to reach prenegotiated settlements with as many key creditors — unions, vendors and pension funds among them — as possible before any filing.

"Clearly, we will always try to do that," one source familiar with the situation said in an interview Thursday. "You can move on a much more expedited basis if you can demonstrate that your cash is running out" — as Detroit clearly is with each passing week.

The evolving bankruptcy scenario is a clear signal that Gov. Rick Snyder and Treasurer Andy Dillon have lost confidence in the ability of the mayor, his management team and council to honor their commitments under the eight-month-old consent agreement with the state, or to make any meaningful progress on restructuring.

Contingency planning in Lansing for a possible Chapter 9 bankruptcy filing is not likely to be popular inside council chambers or the Mayor's Office. But it's the responsible and necessary thing to do, whatever the protests from the elected officials whose denial and self-delusion are hastening the arrival of a reckoning they can no longer avoid.

The goal of a managed bankruptcy is to streamline the protracted process by minimizing the chaos, uncertainty, delay and steep costs associated with Chapter 9. It would be the largest municipal bankruptcy in the nation's history, an unambiguous symbol of the city's epic failure and a chance for a fresh start.

"That's exactly the strategy you should do," said Douglas Bernstein, managing partner of Plunkett Cooney's banking, bankruptcy and creditor rights group. "You're never going to be able to get all the unions — and all you need — to agree in advance, not a chance. You try to do it outside of bankruptcy or you drop it in. It's prudent, too. It's very prudent."

In bankruptcy, pre-packaged deals arrange settlements with all creditors in advance of a filing that is usually followed quickly with a plan of reorganization (called "plan of adjustment" in Chapter 9). A pre-negotiated deal akin to the one being explored in the Governor's Office would reach settlements with some creditors and leave others to be litigated in court.

A Chapter 9 filing for Detroit may be increasingly likely given the dysfunction and infantile posturing atop City Hall. But bankruptcy is not yet certain, provided three obstacles can be removed or settled outside of court: pending litigation designed to slow the process; pension debt of $1.4 billion and $440 million in outstanding swap contracts; and liabilities for retiree health care.

Planning for a possible bankruptcy of Detroit should not be surprising coming from Snyder, an accountant-turned-CEO, and Dillon, a former investment banker. Both possess keen financial minds, strategic savvy and a habit for planning further ahead than most politicians, particularly the elected officials in Detroit flailing from one crisis to the next.

In anticipation of Detroit's financial collapse, for example, Dillon retained an investment banking firm in December 2010 — before taking office — to advise the Treasury on ways to restructure Detroit's balance sheet, reduce its liabilities and return the city's credit rating to investment grade.

City Council, by comparison, is blocking the mayor's effort to hire a local law firm, Miller Canfield, citing conflicts of interest. Nor has the city, likely about a month away from Snyder appointing an emergency financial manager, showed any inkling of forward planning and retained bankruptcy counsel.

It should, because there is no president of the United States or consortium of banks coming to the rescue. Both Public Act 72, the existing emergency financial manager law, and revised legislation that passed the House this week enable an emergency financial manager and his counsel to negotiate settlements with creditors in advance of a Chapter 9 filing.

Under Public Act 72, an emergency financial manager cannot move to abandon the city's financial workout plan in favor of bankruptcy until 180 days have passed. But the timeline to Chapter 9 filing can be accelerated if the city is in danger of running out of cash.

Still, bankruptcy for Detroit would require the governor to first appoint an emergency financial manager. The appointee would be charged with devising a financial plan, making it public and beginning the effort to execute it — unless the city's meager cash hoard runs out first.

It probably will, which is why the governor and his treasurer are taking their jobs seriously and planning for the worst. Someone has to.


From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121207/OPINION03/212070365#ixzz2EO8FL2Kr


Amazing..............

menmon
12-07-2012, 12:40 PM
Need to clean it up....best thing that could happen

zeus3925
12-07-2012, 07:56 PM
[QUOTE=zeus3925;1041606]By the way, Cary, your assertion that the TVA states are now the center of auto production is not borne by facts. In terms of employment, Michigan is number one and Ohio is number two. The traditional car and parts production is still dominated by the North.

http://www.bls.gov/iag/tgs/iagauto.htm[/QUOT
I could be wrong but I have read that Michigan is #4 in the production of autos and Tn is #1. Maybe that is wrong. What I do know is that Nissan based in smyrna Tn. continues to increase production and new hires. Same for toyota, mercedes, vw, all based in the South. Not just yesterday and today, but for last year and the year before and before that. None needed a bailout. They did not need a bailout because they have maintained quality and kept their labor costs at a level that they can remain competitive(a responsibility of management, I might add). Looking at Detroit, one might surmise that is not the case there. In any event to say that the auto industry is dominated by the north is like saying a school with the large football stadium(tennessee?)dominates even though they have a losing team(and the fans are not showing up.

PS Interesting that you should associate TVA with the states. You might check the history of TVA. The Gov. seized far more land via imminant domain at very little cost and have been selling the excess land at huge profits. Talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly, you could also have a college degree when studying TVA.

Here is another link. Michigan is still #1.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2012/07/american-made-index-which-automakers-affect-the-most-us-workers.html

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/12/map.us.auto/index.html

There are many reasons to a manufacturing facility along with labor cost. Important is the skill level of the work force. Also a consideration is the costs and availability of materials needed in manufacturing. Another is energy cost. (Thanks to TVA that provides a inexpensive source.) Other considerations are access to markets. Cost of real estate is another factor.

caryalsobrook
12-07-2012, 10:08 PM
[QUOTE=caryalsobrook;1041665]

Here is another link. Michigan is still #1.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2012/07/american-made-index-which-automakers-affect-the-most-us-workers.html

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/12/map.us.auto/index.html

There are many reasons to a manufacturing facility along with labor cost. Important is the skill level of the work force. Also a consideration is the costs and availability of materials needed in manufacturing. Another is energy cost. (Thanks to TVA that provides a inexpensive source.) Other considerations are access to markets. Cost of real estate is another factor.
You are right and I was wrong. Some organization rates Tennessee the #1 auto state(whatever that means). I never said that labor was the only factor in Mich.'s lack of competiveness. Certainly there are many factors. as for TVA, it's electrical rates are not nearly as low as in the past. While at one time they had the lowest rates in the country, I don't believe that to be true today. You mention TVA as an advantage in the production of cars but fail to mention such things as the Fantom Freight Law requiring freight charges to be comuted as if the steel was shipped from Pittsburg, no matter where it was made, resulting in Mich and Ohio paying less in freight on steel than Tn would have. Not once have I blamed labor, on the contrary, labor can do nothing without the consent of mgmt. I remember when the UAW claimed that job security was the major point of bargaining and touted the new contract as "guaranteeing job security for it's members". Surely the union reps knes that job security goes only as far as the fiscal integrity of the company(barring Gov. bailouts).

There are many things that unions advocate that resrict comppetiveness but there are some that actually improve competiveness, long term labor contracts guaranteeing stability of labor costs over a period of time is an example. If you are to succeed, you must compete. If you cannot compete successfully, you fail

.
I do know one thing, barring gov. bailouts, the future of the auto industry in the south looks far better than in Mich. and ohio. It may not stay that way because evidently Mich appears ready to try something different than the ways that have gotten them in the shape they are.

road kill
07-18-2013, 06:03 PM
Anyone get this e-mail?

I can't figure out how to post all the pictures, pm me you e-mail, I will send it to you!!

It's pretty amazing.
It is deliciously ironic.
It is devesatingly sad.......but true.

A nuclear bomb couldn't do what progressives can!!!:cool:
After 50 years plus of liberal Democrat rule.......BANKRUPTCY!

Well, this is were the progressives are taking America!

Who is next?

Henlee
07-19-2013, 01:00 AM
14223142241422514226 Detroit, Mi.

road kill
07-19-2013, 05:11 AM
City of Detroit Files for Bankruptcy

Detroit— The city of Detroit filed the largest municipal bankruptcy case in U.S. history Thursday, culminating a decades-long slide that transformed the nation’s iconic industrial town into a model of urban decline crippled by population loss, a dwindling tax base and financial problems.

Gov. Rick Snyder justified approving the historic filing by reciting a litany of the city’s ills, including more than $18 billion in debt, maxed-out tax rates, the highest murder rate in 40 years, 78,000 abandoned buildings and a half-century of residential flight. He said the city failed to provide basic services to residents or pay creditors.

The filing, which has broad implications for the nation’s municipal bond market and sanctity of public pension funds, was met with outrage, disappointment and a vow to fight. Some creditors adopted a war stance, threatening a prolonged battle. Others accused Emergency Manager Kevyn Orr of failing to negotiate in good faith — an essential requirement for approval of a bankruptcy petition — during his month-long push to secure concessions from creditors, including deep cuts to pensions.

“It’s war,” said George Orzech, chairman of the city’s Police and Fire pension fund.

The 16-page bankruptcy petition was shrouded in secrecy and filed amid drama. Snyder planned to file the bankruptcy petition today in U.S. District Court but reversed course after learning the city’s pension funds planned to ask a judge to block a filing, according to a source. The petition was filed at 4:06 p.m. Thursday and cost the bankrupt city $1,213.

Eighteen minutes later — too late to make a difference — Ingham County Circuit Judge Rosemarie Aquilina signed a restraining order.

Snyder authorized Orr to file bankruptcy under a controversial law the Legislature passed in December that replaced the previous emergency manager law voters repealed last November.

“There were no other viable alternatives,” Snyder told reporters Thursday. “We have a great city but a city that has been going downhill for 60 years.”

Orr said he will continue trying to secure deals with additional creditors that could ease the city’s path through bankruptcy court. He said he hoped the city could restructure and emerge from bankruptcy court next year, by late summer or early fall.

During a month of negotiations, Orr has reached a settlement with only two creditors: Bank of America Corp. and UBS AG. They have agreed to accept 75 cents on the dollar for approximately $340 million in swaps liabilities, according to a source familiar with the deal.

Orr had harsh words for those who tried to block the city’s restructuring efforts.

“We don’t have time for more delaying tactics,” Orr said.

Orr insisted he “bent over backwards” and negotiated in good faith during more than 100 meetings with creditors. In court filings late Thursday, he said it was impossible to reach an accord with “many tens of thousands of creditors” and accused unions of refusing to negotiate on behalf of the city’s 20,000 retirees.

The filings also indicated that Orr may be open to offers on the Detroit Institute of Arts’ collection, which is worth billions. Orr said he will continue to “engage all interested parties in dialogue regarding the City-owned art collection” and “reach a resolution with respect to such assets that will maximize the long term benefits to the City and the prospects for a successful restructuring.”

Orr also will continue to evaluate how much money the city could collect by selling other assets, including Belle Isle, the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel, real estate and municipal parking operations.

Mayor Dave Bing, whose powers were usurped when the governor appointed Orr in March, spoke of Thursday’s moves with a mix of resignation and optimism.

“As tough as this is, I didn’t want to go in this direction,” Bing said. “Now that we are here, we have to make the best of it. If it is going to make citizens better off, this is a new start for us.”

But not until creditors feel varying degrees of pain, experts said.

Unsecured creditors could take the biggest hit in bankruptcy court. Orr wants them to share a $2 billion payout on approximately $11.5 billion worth of debt, which includes an estimated $9.2 billion in health and pension benefits and $530 million in general-obligation bonds.

“Pain is going to be handed out to a number of creditors simply because Detroit has no other option,” said Dan Heckman, senior fixed income strategist with U.S. Bank Wealth Management in Minneapolis.

Orr chronicled the city’s economic collapse in a detailed plan presented to creditors June 14 — a proposal that drew criticism from some who said the cuts were too deep and did not include the sale of city assets, including Belle Isle and a Detroit Institute of Arts collection. He proposed paying most of the money owed to secured creditors while pension funds, unions and unsecured bondholders would receive, in some cases, as little as 10 cents on the dollar.

Instead of paying creditors in full, Orr said he would use $1.25 billion over the next decade to buy police cars and fire trucks, replace broken street lights, tear down burned-out homes, fight blight and improve city services.

Orr said he wants to stabilize the city, woo new residents, provide essential city services, lower property taxes and transfer costly departments, including the water and sewerage, to an outside group.

The bankruptcy filing gives Orr unusual power to break promises made by past city officials that left Detroit on a path to spending almost 65 percent of every tax dollar on retiree pensions and health care.

The Chapter 9 filing could take years, experts said, despite hopes by Snyder and Orr thatit can be wrapped up in a year. A bankruptcy judge could trump the state constitution by slashing retiree pensions, ripping up contracts and paying creditors roughly a dime on the dollar for unsecured claims worth $11.45 billion.

“Detroit cannot afford any further attacks on working families, who have already sacrificed so much without a say in the process,” Metro Detroit AFL-CIO president Chris Michalakis and Michigan State AFL-CIO president Karla Swift said in a statement. “City workers have already made severe concession to keep the city afloat. It is time to put the needs of Detroit residents above the interests of out-of-town creditors.”

The filing is expected to trigger a costly, long and precedent-setting battle by creditors — the city has more than 100,000. Detroit’s bankruptcy case could become a template for the treatment of pensions in future municipal bankruptcies.

“The negotiations from here are likely to be long and complex, offering no resolution or clarity perhaps for years,” said Peter Hayes, who heads BlackRock’s Municipal Bonds Group. “Ultimately, it’s important for market participants to understand that Detroit is the exception and not the rule. This is first and foremost a Michigan issue, not a systemic municipal market issue.”

The bankruptcy case will be assigned by Alice Batchelder, chief judge of the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which spans Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky and Tennessee. Any judge in the four-state region could be assigned the case, though Batchelder will weigh potential political concerns and decide who has the time and capability to handle a complex, large case in Detroit.

Once the nation’s fourth largest city, Detroit was hailed as an industrial hub with nearly 2 million people.

Today, there are about 700,000 residents after a half-century of residential flight, high unemployment, a significant reduction in state funding, plummeting income and property taxes, corruption and chronic mismanagement.

The filing serves as a grim reminder of the bankruptcies in the auto industry four years ago. Unlike the cases of General Motors and Chrysler in 2009, the White House offered no financial help.

Steven Rattner, the Obama administration’s auto czar who steered the General Motors and Chrysler bailouts, said the state will have to help fund Detroit’s exit from bankruptcy.

“It’s really ugly,” Rattner said Thursday.

20 largest creditorsHere are the city’s 20 largest unsecured creditors and type of claim:
■General Retirement System: (A) $2 billion
■Police and Fire Retirement System (A) $1.4 billion
■U.S. Bank (B) $801 million
■U.S. Bank (B) $516 million
■U.S. Bank (B) $153 million
■U.S. Bank (C) $79 million
■U.S. Bank (C) $61 million
■U.S. Bank (C) $59 million
■U.S. Bank (C) $45 million
■U.S. Bank (C) $40 million
■U.S. Bank (C/E) $38 million
■U.S. Bank (C) $38 million
■U.S. Bank (C) $35 million
■Downtown Development Authority (D) $34 million
■U.S. Bank (C) $30 million
■U.S. Bank (E) $25 million
■U.S. Bank (C) $19 million
■U.S. Bank (C) $19 million
■U.S. Bank (C) $13million
■U.S. Bank (C/E) $11 million
(A) pension funds; (B) certificate of participation; (C) general obligation bond; (D) loan payable; and (E) capital improvement bond. Source: City of Detroit


rsnell@detroitnews.com
(313) 222-2028
News Staff Writers Darren A. Nichols and Christine Ferretti contributed

The liberals in Detroit just plain "ran out of other peoples money!"



From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130718/METRO01/307180103#ixzz2ZU7DFqQP

coachmo
07-19-2013, 07:16 AM
Who is actually to blame for this? Surely, it won't be the liberals that have been in charge for years!! HA!!!

Rose's Mom
07-19-2013, 07:41 AM
<<<<< On the campaign trail, particularly in the Midwestern states dependent on the auto sector, Obama trumpeted his cash infusion to major American car companies as part of his populist pitch to blue-collar voters.“I wasn't going to let Detroit go bankrupt. Or Toledo go bankrupt. Or Lordstown go bankrupt. I bet on American workers,” Obama said in the final sprint to November’s election.
And Obama and his campaign demonized Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney for a New York Times op-ed headlined, “Let Detroit Go Bankrupt.”>>>

http://washingtonexaminer.com/detroit-bankruptcy-filing-puts-obama-in-awkward-spot/article/2533251

This puts in perspective the moneys wasted and the heartache and the suffering that transpired out of feel good, I will take care of you speeches - all for votes and political gain.

Franco
07-19-2013, 08:42 AM
the Best things to come out of Detroit

1. Al Kaline

2. Bob Seeger and the Silver Bullet Band

3. Mitch Ryder

4. The SupremesLets don't forget Ted Nugent, Kid Rock and John Lee Hooker! Alice Cooper is from Detroit too but he was more a stage act than anything else.

road kill
07-19-2013, 09:08 AM
Lets don't forget Ted Nugent, Kid Rock and John Lee Hooker! Alice Cooper is from Detroit too but he was more a stage act than anything else.

The "MC 5????"

"Kick out the jams brothers and sisters....."

Franco
07-19-2013, 09:22 AM
Well, lets don't forget Grand Funk Railroad! I work with a guy that spent his first 30 years in Detroit. Yet, he and his wife both drive Nissans. According to him, the best thing the city could do is ban all private and public sector unions. The public sector union is by far the biggest reason for Detroit's debt and the private sector unions is why business won't relocate there. Also, the more they have raised taxes the worse it became, having the opposite affect of what the politicians thought it would do.

Socks
07-19-2013, 09:23 AM
Fro those who love to pin the demise of Detroit on Progressives aka democrats, there is a little fact you might be interested in. The beginning of Detroit's decline is generally ascribed to be the race riots which took place in 1967. The Democrats have occupied the Michigan house was occupied by George Romney, a republican, at that time. In fact there was a republican incumbent occupying the state house from 1963 -1982. Since 1963, when the new state constitution was passed, democrat governors served only 16 out of the 59 years. If something could have been done then certainly conservative principles could have been employed by republican governors to stop the slide. Instead, they diverted millions of dollars to the nefarious regimes of Mayor Coleman Young and his successors.

Nice try. Wouldn't have anything to do with the fact the there are others in government besides the governor. As for Romney from what I understand is that he did a lot for the auto industry and detroit.



Having been born and raised in Detroit, I can tell you that Government welfare programs had little to do with the decline of the city. There were a series of far more damaging social, political, and economic factors at work that caused the current conditions. For the author of the article to suggest welfare programs led to the decline only shows how little they actually know about Detroit.

Been a while since you've been home huh?


To delve into all the contributing issues would take far more time than I have today. However, the main factor is the loss of an economic base caused by the decline of the auto industry and other manufacturing. Most of the jobs in, and around Detroit, were in the auto industry, supported the auto industries, or were created as by-products of the auto industry. Many of the other manufacturing jobs were also out-sourced, and left Detroit. Surely, you don’t think those plants closed because the people of Detroit would rather be on welfare, and wouldn’t go to work. The jobs left, so there was no reason for the plants to be open.

Detroit had an industrial based economy. When the jobs left, people didn’t simply decide to go on welfare. The people left as well to look for employment elsewhere. The population of Detroit has declined from about 1.5 million in the 1970s (when manufacturing jobs started to leave) to a population of about 700k now. Detroit has lost about 25% of its population in the last 10 years.

With the loss of jobs, businesses, and population, came the loss of city revenues needed to run and support the city, so city services began to disappear, leading to further decline. Unfortunately, Detroit has not been able to attract enough new business to replace what it lost.

Like I said, there were many contributing factors to why this all happened, but welfare programs really wasn’t one of them.

Wouldn't have anything to do with the the contractor scams, Detroit board of education, water works, or Mayor Young or Mayor Kilpatrick would it? Nah, that's just too logical.



I don't know what part of the state your are from, but from your screen name, I'd guess the UP. I grew up in Michigan. I have lived around Detroit, up in Western Northern Michigan around Manistee, and I lived in the UP for six years while I went to Michigan Tech. One thing that always made an impression on me was the impression around the state that all those poor black people around Detroit were sucking up all the welfare and medicaid. But my impression was that there was just as much poverty around the rest of the state, it's just more concentrated and more noticeable around the urban areas. So, I googled poverty rates and Michigan, and guess what? The poverty rate is higher in many rural areas than it is in Wayne County.

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/01/report_poverty_rates_for_rural.html

So, maybe it's time to poke your head up and take a look around...

You're probably right, but look what Detoilet gets in state and federal funds for poverty vs the UP. Apples to oranges man. Also look into how much money is spent per student in Detoilet vs per student in the UP. Hell, even in a poor district called Willow run, which is now being incorporated into the Ypsilanti district due to lack of funds, 30 miles west of Detoilt doesn't get the same amount of money.



Liberals running Detroit did not cause the decline of the auto industry.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause other manufacturing jobs to go overseas.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause businesses and jobs to leave.
Liberals running Detroit did not cause the decline in population.

Those are the things that really killed Detroit

The UAW wouldn't have anything to do with this would it? Good luck getting ANY manufacturing to willing come to Michigan. Why, they even build new car plants down South. Gee, I wonder why?

Socks
07-19-2013, 09:37 AM
14223142241422514226 Detroit, Mi.

Oh please. The first pic is a casino. And of the ones that have come I belive one of them closed.

In the second pic the Ren Cen has been around for years while never really having full occupancy and that piece of crap people mover only goes back and forth over about a 1 mile stretch and no one usese it. Detroit actually operates it at a loss.

The 3rd pic is Ford Field for the Lions and the 4th pic is Commerica park for the Tigers. People come downtown for those and then leave immediately after and for good reason. There's not much else to do and high crime within 1 mile away. You DO NOT go there unless there's a game or you stay near the fields. At least you won't find me there.

coachmo
07-19-2013, 09:43 AM
You will never get a liberal to admit to failed policies and ventures that continue to kill "big cities" all across the country. High crime, high unemployment, population flight, etc., etc., etc. They refuse to ever take responsibility! It's absolutely amazing and sad!

Daniel J Simoens
07-19-2013, 10:23 AM
Well, lets don't forget Grand Funk Railroad! I work with a guy that spent his first 30 years in Detroit. Yet, he and his wife both drive Nissans. According to him, the best thing the city could do is ban all private and public sector unions. The public sector union is by far the biggest reason for Detroit's debt and the private sector unions is why business won't relocate there. Also, the more they have raised taxes the worse it became, having the opposite affect of what the politicians thought it would do.
in some places even mentioning this will get you stoned. and I don't mean you'll be visted by Cheech and Chong!

swampcollielover
07-19-2013, 11:21 AM
I love Vancouver weather and wouldn't live anywhere else, I have lived in Japan and hated the humidity in the summer and the cold of winter, found the same to be true when I lived in Toronto and suspect that the climate in Detroit would be similar, so that's a no there for me too.

The important question is did the story you posted have sufficient truth to be credible and deserve worrying yourself over and the clear answer is, no it did not. Japan has a National Healthcare System and Social Welfare, and Detroit may have been put to death slowly over the years but Claycomo is rising and Dearborn is doing fine.

From the perspective of an outsider I am appalled by the ferocious level of animosity I see being whipped up to divide the population of the USA, it truly distresses me to see facts misrepresented to create unnecessary anxiety (not blaming you, I see you as an innocent victim here). A great nation has to be imbued with confidence from the top down and the bottom up and that just can't happen where lies and manipulation seek to replace truth and wisdom. As an "outsider" I am appalled by the ferocious level of animosity I see being whipped up to divide the English population and French population in Canada, wasn't it only one vote that kept the country from being split......maybe your comments on "top down" comments apply in Canada also....of course just my observations as an "Outsider"...

Gerry Clinchy
07-19-2013, 11:53 AM
As an "outsider" I am appalled by the ferocious level of animosity I see being whipped up to divide the English population and French population in Canada, wasn't it only one vote that kept the country from being split......maybe your comments on "top down" comments apply in Canada also....of course just my observations as an "Outsider"...
Interesting about Canada. The Anglo/French debate has been going on for many decades. The two-language situation in Quebec is a monstrosity (coming from a Canadian). There's a lesson to be learned there if the US should contemplate incorporating Spanish. I worked for a company that sent a product to Canada. Putting all the label info in TWO languages made the print almost illegible. I find the same thing happening with labels here done in both English & Spanish ... and as I get older I notice that it is not helpful to have info on a label too small to read! Both English & Spanish elderly can have a big problem with that when it comes to OTC meds.

So, Canada, Ireland and the ME clearly demonstrate that divisions can be as violent and damaging within the same races/ethnic groups as those between different races and ethnic groups. In either case, those who foment division v. understanding are culpable of being damaging to their countries/societies.

road kill
07-19-2013, 11:54 AM
I love Vancouver weather and wouldn't live anywhere else, I have lived in Japan and hated the humidity in the summer and the cold of winter, found the same to be true when I lived in Toronto and suspect that the climate in Detroit would be similar, so that's a no there for me too.

The important question is did the story you posted have sufficient truth to be credible and deserve worrying yourself over and the clear answer is, no it did not. Japan has a National Healthcare System and Social Welfare, and Detroit may have been put to death slowly over the years but Claycomo is rising and Dearborn is doing fine.

From the perspective of an outsider I am appalled by the ferocious level of animosity I see being whipped up to divide the population of the USA, it truly distresses me to see facts misrepresented to create unnecessary anxiety (not blaming you, I see you as an innocent victim here). A great nation has to be imbued with confidence from the top down and the bottom up and that just can't happen where lies and manipulation seek to replace truth and wisdom.

You nailed it, nothing to see here.
Mis represented facts?
It's DONE!!!!!

I hope you are enjoying Canada!!

smillerdvm
07-19-2013, 03:52 PM
Lets don't forget Ted Nugent, Kid Rock and John Lee Hooker! Alice Cooper is from Detroit too but he was more a stage act than anything else.

Boz Skaggs, Emminem, & Les Paul also

sick lids
07-19-2013, 06:11 PM
Boz Skaggs, Emminem, & Les Paul also

Lol I thought Les Paul was born and raised in Waukesha Wi. Or dose all of Waukesha have it wrong?

Gerry Clinchy
07-19-2013, 11:21 PM
A judge said today that the Detroit bankruptcy is not allowed under the State constitution, which says that the city can take no action that would lessen public employee pensions. So, unless the unions actually agree to reduce their own pension shortfalls the city cannot declare bankruptcy. Then what?

Mark Steyn today was talking about a small city, Namtraklik (or something like that) sits near the Canadian border, and is mostly surrounded by the city of Detroit; also has a small common border with Highland Park. The town council wants to build a 14-ft wall around it's town so that people can only go in and out with a photo ID! Reminds me of West Berlin sitting surrounded by East Germany during the Cold War.

zeus3925
07-19-2013, 11:36 PM
A judge said today that the Detroit bankruptcy is not allowed under the State constitution, which says that the city can take no action that would lessen public employee pensions. So, unless the unions actually agree to reduce their own pension shortfalls the city cannot declare bankruptcy. Then what?

Mark Steyn today was talking about a small city, Namtraklik (or something like that) sits near the Canadian border, and is mostly surrounded by the city of Detroit; also has a small common border with Highland Park. The town council wants to build a 14-ft wall around it's town so that people can only go in and out with a photo ID! Reminds me of West Berlin sitting surrounded by East Germany during the Cold War.
The city is Hamtramck and the proposed wall is 12 Ft.

zeus3925
07-19-2013, 11:40 PM
Well, lets don't forget Grand Funk Railroad! I work with a guy that spent his first 30 years in Detroit. Yet, he and his wife both drive Nissans. According to him, the best thing the city could do is ban all private and public sector unions. The public sector union is by far the biggest reason for Detroit's debt and the private sector unions is why business won't relocate there. Also, the more they have raised taxes the worse it became, having the opposite affect of what the politicians thought it would do.

The Grand Funk Railroad comes from Swartz Creek, Michigan. The town is about 10 miles west of Flint. The band got its name from the Grand Trunk Railroad which passed through the town.

caryalsobrook
07-19-2013, 11:52 PM
The city is Hamtramck and the proposed wall is 12 Ft.
Sounds like town with a smart city governent.:)

Gerry Clinchy
07-20-2013, 01:47 AM
Labor costs have certainly been part of the problem for US auto manufacturers. GM is also having the same problem in Australia, where they also got a govt bailout.
http://freebeacon.com/australians-bail-out-general-motors/

One of GM’s foreign subsidiaries received a $275 million bailout from Australian taxpayers to keep its operations afloat and is reportedly seeking an additional $265 million from local and federal authorities.
Holden, GM’s Australian subsidiary, faces the same problems that led to General Motors’ 2009 bankruptcy. GM spends $3,750 (http://gmauthority.com/blog/2013/07/holden-domestic-manufacturing-reportedly-on-the-fence-could-close-elizabeth-plant/) (Australian) more to build a car in Australia than the average cost amongst all international GM plants. Lucrative labor agreements are responsible for 65 percent of that amount.
GM has seen its market share decrease by two percent last year, according to its last quarterly report (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/financials/secfilings.asp?ticker=GM). Low-cost imports from China and Korea have undercut its sales, despite sizable tariffs imposed on imported automobiles.
“Chinese pick-up trucks cost half of what a GM pick-up costs,” said Dave Sullivan, an analyst with the Auto Pacific research firm. “The labor rates are extremely high [in Australia] and they tried to protect the market with duties and tariffs, but imports are eating GM’s lunch.”
GM is now slashing prices (http://www.international.to/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8803:gms-australian-subsidiary-slashes-prices-in-the-face-of-falling-sales&catid=253:motoring&Itemid=359) and negotiating with the union to stem the tide on its price increases.
“We can’t survive as a local manufacturer if we’re not competitive and we don’t reduce our costs,” Holden chairman Mike Devereux said in a Junestatement (http://media.gm.com/content/media/au/en/holden/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/au/en/2013/Jun/0618_Holden_Vehicle_Operations.html). “All options for improving productivity are on the table. We will work closely with the unions and our people to develop a fair and reasonable proposal in line with other local manufacturers across all industries.”

Gerry Clinchy
07-21-2013, 01:22 PM
It looks like this fellow Kevyn Orr tells it like it is, without sugar-coating.


“This is the only way,” emergency manager Kevyn Orr told “Fox News Sunday.” “We were compelled to file for bankruptcy.”


Orr steadfastly stuck to what he said was his appointed mission of getting Detroit out from under $19 billion in debt, declining to speculate on whether or if the federal government should bail out the city, once the worldwide hub of auto manufacturing.


He said his goal was to restructure the debt, including roughly $3.5 million in underfunded pension liabilities, and to get Detroit on its feet again by fall 2014.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/07/21/detroit-emergency-manager-defends-bankruptcy-says-city-dug-this-hole/#ixzz2ZhnbyPL2


He also said that his plan would extend full payments only to pensioners for the next six months and acknowledge the hardship it will cause.
“My mother is a pensioner,” Orr said.


Still, he said Detroit “dug this whole,” in part by not addressing its problems earlier.

road kill
07-26-2013, 08:34 AM
Is "The Obama" going to bail Detroit out??


I mean his sending BILLIONS to Syria, Egyptet al, why not Detroit?


I mean his bail outs saved GM & Chrysler, right?


And again I ask, where would you rather live right now, Hiroshima or South of 8 Mile rd?????

Marvin S
07-26-2013, 09:14 AM
Is "The Obama" going to bail Detroit out??


I mean his sending BILLIONS to Syria, Egyptet al, why not Detroit?


I mean his bail outs saved GM & Chrysler, right?


And again I ask, where would you rather live right now, Hiroshima or South of 8 Mile rd?????

I read recently that $97/share is the magic number for taxpayers to break even on the GM shares - not what we are being told :(.

Gerry, nothing happens to raise awareness in the Millions, after all this is OUR government, they only do big things with a B - someone made the quotes from your source incorrectly.