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View Full Version : Libya ... the plot thickens



Gerry Clinchy
12-06-2012, 08:53 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/06/world/africa/weapons-sent-to-libyan-rebels-with-us-approval-fell-into-islamist-hands.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20121206

From the NY Times ...

So, it seems that the US was also sending arms to Libyan rebels through a "surrogate" country (Qatar), but it seems that the arms ended up in the hands of the wrong people. The article says there is no evidence that these weapons were involved in the 9/11/12 Benghazi debacle. Not too surprising since it was weeks before anyone got to investigate the scene of the crime. Might also provide a "motive" for not bailing out the beseiged Americans that night.


But in the months before, the Obama administration clearly was worried about the consequences of its hidden hand in helping arm Libyan militants, concerns that have not previously been reported. The weapons and money from Qatar strengthened militant groups in Libya, allowing them to become a destabilizing force since the fall of the Qaddafi government.


The Obama administration did not initially raise objections when Qatar began shipping arms to opposition groups in Syria, even if it did not offer encouragement, according to current and former administration officials. But they said the United States has growing concerns that, just as in Libya, the Qataris are equipping some of the wrong militants.


Geez! Suckered twice.

Fast & Furious with a MidEast flavor?

The administration has never determined where all of the weapons, paid for by Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, went inside Libya, officials said. Qatar is believed to have shipped by air and sea small arms, including machine guns, automatic rifles, and ammunition, for which it has demanded reimbursement from Libya’s new government. Some of the arms since have been moved from Libya to militants with ties to Al Qaeda in Mali, where radical jihadi factions have imposed Shariah law (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/s/sharia_islamic_law/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) in the northern part of the country, the former Defense Department official said. Others have gone to Syria, according to several American and foreign officials and arms traders.



American officials say that the United Arab Emirates first approached the Obama administration during the early months of the Libyan uprising, asking for permission to ship American-built weapons that the United States had supplied for the emirates’ use. The administration rejected that request, but instead urged the emirates to ship weapons to Libya that could not be traced to the United States.


But the American support for the arms shipments from Qatar and the emirates could not be completely hidden. NATO air and sea forces around Libya had to be alerted not to interdict the cargo planes and freighters transporting the arms into Libya from Qatar and the emirates, American officials said.


The bad guys in the ME must be laughing up their sleeves at how stupid Americans are.

Meanwhile, Morsi in Egypt is looking like a worse despot than Mubarack was; and Assad has been mixing up nerve gas (which he says that he does not intend to use on his own people ... does that mean he plans to use it on somebody else?)

Sure does reinforce the case for letting these guys fight out their own tribal wars.

Also not too surprising that this stuff is only being reported now that the election is over.

JDogger
12-07-2012, 01:04 AM
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
Cool it with a baboon's blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.

JD

Pals
12-07-2012, 09:03 AM
Typical display of Americans not caring that their own were left to be tortured and killed in a hostile country by terroists and a Corrupt Administration. Thank you Hugh for your continued lack of decency. You could have just ignored this instead of acting like a 2 year old. Gerry did not deserve that response, she always makes informed posts that are thought provoking and she can back up what she posts. You on the other hand.....

MooseGooser
12-07-2012, 10:08 AM
Nursry rhymes!!!
Finally a thread that drops down to Goosers intellect!!!

JD,,,

Heres a more appropriate one for ya!!

Look up the Historical meaning of this rhyme.. Piracy,, and being duped!!


Sing a song of sixpence a pocket full of rye,
Four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie.
When the pie was opened the birds began to sing,
Oh wasn't that a dainty dish to set before the king?
The king was in his counting house counting out his money,
The queen was in the parlour eating bread and honey
The maid was in the garden hanging out the clothes,
When down came a blackbird and pecked off her nose!

Henry V
12-07-2012, 11:21 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/06/world/africa/weapons-sent-to-libyan-rebels-with-us-approval-fell-into-islamist-hands.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20121206

From the NY Times ...

So, it seems that the US was also sending arms to Libyan rebels through a "surrogate" country (Qatar), but it seems that the arms ended up in the hands of the wrong people. The article says there is no evidence that these weapons were involved in the 9/11/12 Benghazi debacle. Not too surprising since it was weeks before anyone got to investigate the scene of the crime. Might also provide a "motive" for not bailing out the beseiged Americans that night.



Geez! Suckered twice.

Fast & Furious with a MidEast flavor?


The bad guys in the ME must be laughing up their sleeves at how stupid Americans are.

Meanwhile, Morsi in Egypt is looking like a worse despot than Mubarack was; and Assad has been mixing up nerve gas (which he says that he does not intend to use on his own people ... does that mean he plans to use it on somebody else?)

Sure does reinforce the case for letting these guys fight out their own tribal wars.

Also not too surprising that this stuff is only being reported now that the election is over.

Are you really surprised by this? This is nothing new in terms of long term American policy. The US has been and continues to be, by far, the largest supplier of military weapons to the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry). The fact that some of these weapons end up in the wrong hands is nothing new. How selective do you want the U.S. and U.S arms dealers to be when selling their Billions of dollars of weapons to foreign entities each year?

Also, you do realize that policies that led to the fast and furious operation started in 2006 under the Bush administration, right?

Gerry Clinchy
12-07-2012, 11:22 AM
With this additional background, do we still believe that the POTUS (and/or his high-level staff) did not make the decisions of what action to take (or not take) that night?

It is inconceivable to me that when this was going down, the POTUS would not have been in the melee. If that were not the case, one might be asking exactly who is then in charge when an ambassador's life hangs in the balance? After all, the Times is reporting that the POTUS was well aware of the shipments of arms to rebel forces and concerned about leaving no "fingerprints".

Reminds me, too, that Hillary mentioned that Amb Stevens was also a "friend". With friends like that, who needs enemies?

starjack
12-07-2012, 01:31 PM
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
Cool it with a baboon's blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.

JDWhat.............

Uncle Bill
12-07-2012, 02:32 PM
Also, you do realize that policies that led to the fast and furious operation started in 2006 under the Bush administration, right?


More MISINFORMATION you and your ilk continue to spew. If you don't know the facts...you just spew whatever feels good by your inept reasoning. but when I point that type of bullcrap out, everyone goes ballistic about my not sticking to facts. Well as hyopcrites go, you win the prize.

UB

mngundog
12-07-2012, 02:56 PM
More MISINFORMATION you and your ilk continue to spew. If you don't know the facts...you just spew whatever feels good by your inept reasoning. but when I point that type of bullcrap out, everyone goes ballistic about my not sticking to facts. Well as hyopcrites go, you win the prize.

UB
There you go again........ let me dumb it down for you, Google "wide receiver gun walking", even your beloved FoxNews covered it.

Here I'll dumb it down for you further, here's a link. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/11/01/justice-official-regrets-not-speaking-up-about-federal-gun-operation/

Are you and Rush dipping from the same prescription bottle?

huntinman
12-07-2012, 03:13 PM
Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble.
Cool it with a baboon's blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.

JD

Must have legalized some really good stuff in NM...:rolleyes:

menmon
12-07-2012, 03:21 PM
Are you sure this is the correct spelling of Libya? Maybe it should be Lybia or Libia or Libay....or maybe some other letter that they pronounce different?

road kill
12-07-2012, 03:24 PM
Are you sure this is the correct spelling of Libya? Maybe it should be Lybia or Libia or Libay....or maybe some other letter that they pronounce different?

You can spell it how ever you want, just like you do with most words!;)

starjack
12-07-2012, 03:54 PM
Are you sure this is the correct spelling of Libya? Maybe it should be Lybia or Libia or Libay....or maybe some other letter that they pronounce different?You know you sure have been pretty tight lipped about Libya. I do not think you would like the truth to really come out because that would make the admin. look real bad. But whats a few dead americans. Those same Americans that asked for security and did not get it.

I know wmds Bush Bush Bush. but that does not hold water with me because Clinton sayed they had them to. Afganastan I Know Bush Bush Bush . But you remember 9/11

menmon
12-07-2012, 04:29 PM
You know you sure have been pretty tight lipped about Libya. I do not think you would like the truth to really come out because that would make the admin. look real bad. But whats a few dead americans. Those same Americans that asked for security and did not get it.

I know wmds Bush Bush Bush. but that does not hold water with me because Clinton sayed they had them to. Afganastan I Know Bush Bush Bush . But you remember 9/11

Nobody cares except you guys that want to make the POTUS look bad....nobody cares about Lidya

Pals
12-07-2012, 04:45 PM
No. People do care. Heartless, brainless sheepel do not. Thank you for proving that point.

road kill
12-07-2012, 04:52 PM
Nobody cares except you guys that want to make the POTUS look bad....nobody cares about Lidya
That is tragic and shameful.
Americans were killed there.

The fact that you don't care about human life is disturbing!!

I'd bet anything you want that the families of those killed are interested......even though YOU and Obama DON'T!!!!

Down East Labs 217
12-07-2012, 05:20 PM
Nobody cares except you guys that want to make the POTUS look bad....nobody cares about Lidya

This is by far the worst statement made by Mike yet. Mike did you think before you typed this response or did you just type it trying to sling cow waste. Any American who does not care about the lose of life while deployed over seas really needs to do some sole searching. Next you will say any military member killed in action is irrelevant because the POTUS sent them there.

Mike, you really need to stop and think of what you are typing before you hit post.

Richard

M&K's Retrievers
12-07-2012, 06:13 PM
Nobody cares except you guys that want to make the POTUS look bad....nobody cares about Lidya

I suspect you might have plenty of room in your duck blind.

mngundog
12-07-2012, 06:56 PM
Nobody cares except you guys that want to make the POTUS look bad....nobody cares about Lidya
Is this any different than the guy who says nobody cares about Bush lying about WOMD?

Marvin S
12-07-2012, 07:29 PM
Is this any different than the guy who says nobody cares about Bush lying about WOMD?

If I'm not mistaken - R's & D's alike believed they were there - So what info did GW have that he failed to pass on????????

Gerry Clinchy
12-07-2012, 07:58 PM
Are you really surprised by this? This is nothing new in terms of long term American policy. The US has been and continues to be, by far, the largest supplier of military weapons to the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry). The fact that some of these weapons end up in the wrong hands is nothing new. How selective do you want the U.S. and U.S arms dealers to be when selling their Billions of dollars of weapons to foreign entities each year?

Also, you do realize that policies that led to the fast and furious operation started in 2006 under the Bush administration, right?

No, Henry, I am not surprised, it is historical fact that the US has dealt in supplying arms for many years in the past. However, hasn't it been Obama's mantra that he is so much smarter about foreign policy; and so much more transparent; that he disavows policies of the past ... etc. He went right ahead doing the same thing. If there is a connection between this and Benghazi, it also means that he was anything but transparent about continuing those policies of which he is/was so critical.

Second, the Bush operation ("Wide Receiver") was shut down long before F&F began ... when they realized it wasn't working, they shut it down. And that operation had even used tracking devices on the guns. The bad guys figured it out, and were removing the tracking devices, and the guns were "lost". So the operation was terminated. The #s of guns involved were much less than F&F distributed ... and F&F had no effective provisions for tracking the guns. F&F was separate and distinct from the Bush operation. And, guess one might say it was pretty much dumber, since they already knew about the failure of Wide Receiver. And would the F&F operation still be going on if someone of conscience at the field level had not blown the whistle on it? You may recall there were emails that hinted that the flaws in the operation that allowed these guns to be used in violence & traced back to the US might carry some collateral benefit to the cause of stricter gun control. Makes me wonder if anybody even cared about catching any of the bad guys or a few dead Mexicans as long as the gun control agenda could be advanced.

Nope, not at all surprising to me or you that some (many? most?) of the arms end up in the hands of the wrong people. Evidently, however, it WAS a surprise to Obama (according to the Times article).

starjack
12-08-2012, 06:59 AM
nobody cares except you guys that want to make the potus look bad....nobody cares about lidyadont even think of calling yourself an american.

starjack
12-08-2012, 07:10 AM
Nobody cares except you guys that want to make the POTUS look bad....nobody cares about LidyaYou know i should of expected nothing less from the most classless person on this forum

BonMallari
12-08-2012, 09:31 AM
Nobody cares except you guys that want to make the POTUS look bad....nobody cares about Lidya


That's about the coldest and most calloused statements I have ever witnessed here on POTUS...and somehow not surprised as to its originator

Gerry Clinchy
12-08-2012, 09:41 AM
There you go again........ let me dumb it down for you, Google "wide receiver gun walking", even your beloved FoxNews covered it.

Here I'll dumb it down for you further, here's a link. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/11/01/justice-official-regrets-not-speaking-up-about-federal-gun-operation/

Are you and Rush dipping from the same prescription bottle?
From the article you cited:


Wide Receiver was an operation during the Bush administration similar to Fast and Furious under the Obama administration where illegally purchased weapons entered Mexico (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/mexico.htm#r_src=ramp) instead of being stop by ATF. Under Wide Receiver, which ran from 2006 to the end of 2007, the ATF recruited a gun dealer to sell some 450 assault rifles to known straw buyers and then watched as many of those guns crossed the Mexican border.

Under Fast and Furious, more than 2,000 illegally purchased guns were not tracked, with many crossing into Mexico. Public outcry over Fast and Furious was ignited when Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was gunned down last December. Two of the guns recovered at the scene were later traced to Fast and Furious.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/11/01/justice-official-regrets-not-speaking-up-about-federal-gun-operation/#ixzz2ETHPkqJ0

Wide Receiver ENDED in 2007, which would have been two years before the current administration took office. I don't recall the exact date that F&F was initiated.

Certainly there was SOMEone left in ATF who could have remembered that Wide Receiver failed, and that to do the same thing all over again, with even less "control" over the guns, was just plain dumb.

The fact that those who were involved will still receive their pensions is an insult to a rational mind, IMO.

mngundog
12-08-2012, 09:51 AM
If I'm not mistaken - R's & D's alike believed they were there - So what info did GW have that he failed to pass on????????
Two months after the war began Bush went on TV and declared:
"We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories," "For those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them."
This wasn't speculation, he said that we found things that never existed and later he admitted they were never found.

Gerry Clinchy
12-08-2012, 09:57 AM
Interesting comment by Mark Levin about the WMDs ... back when no WMDs were found in Iraq, Levin had speculated that Sadaam had moved them to Syria. It's kind of interesting that now Syria is mixing up WMDs, but no one has made any reference to where Assad got the stuff.

Very disturbing that Assad has not denied the allegations of mixing up sarrin gas, and has said that he does not intend to use such stuff on his own people. If I were one of Assad's unfriendly neighbors, I'd be very uncomfortable right now. In fact, the way things go in the ME, even if I were one of his friendly neighbors I wouldn't be feeling very comfortable either.

Buzz
12-08-2012, 12:41 PM
Nobody cares except you guys that want to make the POTUS look bad....nobody cares about Lidya


Actually, there was a good interview on Fox News about this very issue. I have posted it a couple different places here on POTUS, but so far, no comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewNUJ_Ce5O0

huntinman
12-08-2012, 04:51 PM
Actually, there was a good interview on Fox News about this very issue. I have posted it a couple different places here on POTUS, but so far, no comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewNUJ_Ce5O0

Maybe because everyone on the board knows how you feel about Fox News. It actually surprising you even deign to call it Fox News instead of your pet name for it. So are you saying you agree with menmon? You don't care about the folks killed in Benghazi either?