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road kill
12-22-2012, 10:37 AM
Sorry all youse that whined about this kid using a "High-Powered ASSAULT WEAPON!!!"


He DIDN'T!!!!!
NO assault weapon was used in the commission of this crime.



http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/50208495#50208495

Anyways, that's what Law Enforcement says, what do they knw.

I told you I had read initial police reports that said the EVIL assault weapon was in the car.
But the state run media ran wild with another "version.."
And the leftys (that are on our side:rolleyes:) ran with........hook deeply embedded in lip!!!!
And I was admonished.

Feels pretty good to have told it the way it really was (the truth you all so fervently quest!!!!!).:cool:


Again, what law, in your wildest imagination would stop this crime??

gmhr1
12-22-2012, 10:43 AM
The law worked, he tried to buy a rifle and wasn't allowed.

HPL
12-22-2012, 11:06 AM
Well, it looks like that report actually aired on 12/15 so it is possible that the info released by the medical examiner is actually correct. I'm not sure that we will ever get the straight story on the weapons as there is too much of an agenda here on the part of the anti gun groups.

I will say this again: it seems idiotic to me to be talking about creating new laws and regulations to attempt to prevent what is a truly rare occurrence. We are talking about trying to fix a problem that doesn't actually exist. The time, money, and effort would be better spent on preventing childhood obesity, smoking, or even seatbelt education.

road kill
12-22-2012, 11:21 AM
Well, it looks like that report actually aired on 12/15 so it is possible that the info released by the medical examiner is actually correct. I'm not sure that we will ever get the straight story on the weapons as there is too much of an agenda here on the part of the anti gun groups.

I will say this again: it seems idiotic to me to be talking about creating new laws and regulations to attempt to prevent what is a truly rare occurrence. We are talking about trying to fix a problem that doesn't actually exist. The time, money, and effort would be better spent on preventing childhood obesity, smoking, or even seatbelt education.

So the Police have it wrong??

Really!?!

Show the medical examiners report that says otherwise......standing by!

Marvin S
12-22-2012, 11:23 AM
The time, money, and effort would be better spent on preventing childhood obesity, smoking, or even seatbelt education.

In the course of what's being discussed - Do you believe these to be governmental functions or parental obligations?

road kill
12-22-2012, 11:28 AM
In the course of what's being discussed - Do you believe these to be governmental functions or parental obligations?

The progressives think EVERYTHING should be a function of the government!

Cradle to grave regards.............

mjh345
12-22-2012, 11:42 AM
In the course of what's being discussed - Do you believe these to be governmental functions or parental obligations?

Good question Marvin

.

HPL
12-22-2012, 11:48 AM
As to the weapon/weapons used, I really hope the FBI has if right and the statement from the coroner saying that ALL the wounds were from the rifle is wrong. Even more, if the FBI has it right, I REALLY hope that gets BIG coverage in the next few days, but since this report seems to be from the 15th, that seems very unlikely.

My point vis a vis obesity etc wasn't that it is the govt's responsibility, but that all those things pose greater threats to the youth of America than firearms do. Addressing your question, I do think that allowing children to become morbidly obese is a form of child abuse and same goes for failing to insist on seat-belt use, so in that respect, yes, I think that those two issues could reasonably come under the purview of the government, whether it be local, state, or national.

road kill
12-22-2012, 12:05 PM
As to the weapon/weapons used, I really hope the FBI has if right and the statement from the coroner saying that ALL the wounds were from the rifle is wrong. Even more, if the FBI has it right, I REALLY hope that gets BIG coverage in the next few days, but since this report seems to be from the 15th, that seems very unlikely.

My point vis a vis obesity etc wasn't that it is the govt's responsibility, but that all those things pose greater threats to the youth of America than firearms do. Addressing your question, I do think that allowing children to become morbidly obese is a form of child abuse and same goes for failing to insist on seat-belt use, so in that respect, yes, I think that those two issues could reasonably come under the purview of the government, whether it be local, state, or national.
I found another report that claims the kid had 4 hand guns.
Not once reported on the state run media............

Marvin S
12-22-2012, 12:20 PM
My point vis a vis obesity etc wasn't that it is the govt's responsibility, but that all those things pose greater threats to the youth of America than firearms do. Addressing your question, I do think that allowing children to become morbidly obese is a form of child abuse and same goes for failing to insist on seat-belt use, so in that respect, yes, I think that those two issues could reasonably come under the purview of the government, whether it be local, state, or national.

I'll keep this brief as there is a lot to do before the holidays but:

OBESITY - Are you OK with most schools dropping Phys Ed, when that's the only part of government that seemed to help?

SEAT BELTS - What part did you miss about them being a major revenue source? for the government that is - We raised 4 boys without seat belts, somehow managed to get through all that without damaging them, we must have been doing it wrong :confused:.

SMOKING - You didn't address this, I await your reply - & then I'll have more :).

HPL
12-22-2012, 12:30 PM
NO not OK with the deletion of PE. Dad killed in car wreck when I was 6 wearing seat belt. I had a pretty bad one in highschool also wearing seatbelt and not a scratch, but am certain would have gone through windshield if unbelted. ALL research and ALL evidence PROVES that seatbelts SAVE lives, so your argument there is just, well I really hate to use the term, but, stupid.

As to smoking, the biggest problem I have there is that it isn't fatal quickly or reliably enough. If you have paid ANY attention to my posts over the last couple of years, you know that I am mostly a misanthrope and think that there are way too many people on this little blue sphere and so don't really care if folks commit suicide, just wish they would use more reliable means than tobacco use. If it worked more reliably and faster, it would be a good tool to help raise the collective IQ. Actually goes for ADULTS and seat belts too.

About time for me to sign off and am going to be out for a few days, so:

Merry Christmas, y un prospero ano nuevo! Pray for RAIN!!!

Hugh

Uncle Bill
12-22-2012, 01:59 PM
I'll keep this brief as there is a lot to do before the holidays but:

OBESITY - Are you OK with most schools dropping Phys Ed, when that's the only part of government that seemed to help?

SEAT BELTS - What part did you miss about them being a major revenue source? for the government that is - We raised 4 boys without seat belts, somehow managed to get through all that without damaging them, we must have been doing it wrong :confused:.

SMOKING - You didn't address this, I await your reply - & then I'll have more :).


I have always viewed HPL as a quasi conservative...kinda a tree-hugger-saving-spotted-owls cause promoter that carries a gun... on occassion. He will frequently espouse a form of cradle-to-grave governmental mandates, like his views on seat belts, and I suspect automobile air bags. I often wonder if those imposed government 'safety' costs, that increase what's charged to the consumer, ever enlighten him? Has he ever considered that in the current environment of CTG G-ment 'protection'...like uninsured and UNDERinsured motorist coverage the current laws require all of us law-abiding car owners to carry, that all we succeed in doing is enlarging the pool of non-responsible drivers? Hellsbells, some of these ignoramuses jump into these vehicles and act like they are in a bumper-car, with no responsibilities at all.

Living in a nation regulated by a Constitution that is based on liberty and freedom, it's always amazed me how frequently the leftists are so quick to have those freedoms legislated away...or worse, quick to spend someone elses money to enforce all those newly legislated regulations. The idea of rugged individualism is lost among these socialist/communistic thinkers. How could some of these folks, that call themselves Americans, have allowed the "free-ice-cream" crowd to foolishly put in place a regime that has a vendetta to ruin this country. We laugh at the imbiciles in California that voted in more taxes, so they presumably could continue to get their freebies, having no thought whatsoever about what happens when the producers quit...and leave.

The Bill Bonner column I posted pretty much sums up my thoughts on our current condition in this nation. It's doubtful either of our great grandkids will get out from under this crushing debt. The government spending will continue until we have turned this nation into another Greece, and we are powerless to stop it.

UB

BonMallari
12-22-2012, 02:15 PM
unbelievable(but not surprised) how much misinformation was out there

Pete
12-22-2012, 02:19 PM
NO not OK with the deletion of PE. Dad killed in car wreck when I was 6 wearing seat belt. I had a pretty bad one in highschool also wearing seatbelt and not a scratch, but am certain would have gone through windshield if unbelted. ALL research and ALL evidence PROVES that seatbelts SAVE lives, so your argument there is just, well I really hate to use the term, but, stupid.

As to smoking, the biggest problem I have there is that it isn't fatal quickly or reliably enough. If you have paid ANY attention to my posts over the last couple of years, you know that I am mostly a misanthrope and think that there are way too many people on this little blue sphere and so don't really care if folks commit suicide, just wish they would use more reliable means than tobacco use. If it worked more reliably and faster, it would be a good tool to help raise the collective IQ. Actually goes for ADULTS and seat belts too.


If you don't care if people live or die then why would you want them to wear a seat belt. You seem to contradict yourself all in one breath.
Pete

dixidawg
12-22-2012, 02:40 PM
I think that was aired on the 15th. Since then, the ME has come out saying the wounds he saw were from a rifle. No idea which is correct.

Buzz
12-22-2012, 03:36 PM
I think that was aired on the 15th. Since then, the ME has come out saying the wounds he saw were from a rifle. No idea which is correct.


There has been so much misinformation, I would hate to guess. I will say that after Friday, I watched no coverage of the shooting until the middle of this week. The information coming out was ESPECIALLY inaccurate the first day or two, so I personally completely stopped paying attention until everything could get sorted out. That, and I refuse to let the media suck me into obsessing over stuff like this. But I would be shocked if the medical examiner was unclear about the bullets he/she found in the victims. Has anyone heard what these handguns were? What calibre?

BonMallari
12-22-2012, 03:45 PM
There has been so much misinformation, I would hate to guess. I will say that after Friday, I watched no coverage of the shooting until the middle of this week. The information coming out was ESPECIALLY inaccurate the first day or two, so I personally completely stopped paying attention until everything could get sorted out. That, and I refuse to let the media suck me into obsessing over stuff like this. But I would be shocked if the medical examiner was unclear about the bullets he/she found in the victims. Has anyone heard what these handguns were? What calibre?


the initial reports were that it was a 10mm Glock and a 9mm SigSauer...but I am with you with all the misinformation out there its hard to believe anything right now

road kill
12-22-2012, 03:46 PM
There has been so much misinformation, I would hate to guess. I will say that after Friday, I watched no coverage of the shooting until the middle of this week. The information coming out was ESPECIALLY inaccurate the first day or two, so I personally completely stopped paying attention until everything could get sorted out. That, and I refuse to let the media suck me into obsessing over stuff like this. But I would be shocked if the medical examiner was unclear about the bullets he/she found in the victims. Has anyone heard what these handguns were? What calibre?

Sig & Glock, not heard or read calber ID'd.

road kill
12-22-2012, 03:49 PM
the initial reports were that it was a 10mm Glock and a 9mm SigSauer...but I am with you with all the misinformation out there its hard to believe anything right now

The first day, the Lt. in charge issued a statement that the "bushmaster" was found in the car.

That information dissappeared.

I searched for it, the video finally came up.

I also have heard a criminal defense attorney state that he has never read an ME's report that stated rifle vs. hand gun ID of wounds.

I have also read recently that 4 hand guns were found, but now I can't find that article, just someone else referencing it as well.
There is also information that the school had video survellience, where are the tapes (or whatever they use to record)????

Uncle Bill
12-22-2012, 04:06 PM
Far too many 'agendas' being protected by disallowing correct information to be released. It's almost impossible to not be cynical, when so much 'confusion' has run rampant throughout this investigation. I wouldn't trust anything being released at this time.

UB

dixidawg
12-22-2012, 04:15 PM
The first day, the Lt. in charge issued a statement that the "bushmaster" was found in the car.

That information dissappeared.

I searched for it, the video finally came up.

I also have heard a criminal defense attorney state that he has never read an ME's report that stated rifle vs. hand gun ID of wounds.

I have also read recently that 4 hand guns were found, but now I can't find that article, just someone else referencing it as well.
There is also information that the school had video survellience, where are the tapes (or whatever they use to record)????

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju_NllT1iDo

RailRoadRetrievers
12-22-2012, 04:16 PM
Road kill do you have a link to your information, I would like to be able to read and use it

road kill
12-22-2012, 04:20 PM
Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju_NllT1iDo
Amazing..........video of the troopers retrieving the "long gun" and the ME still claims it did all the shooting.

Not the hand guns recovered in the school.

Upon further review, it looks a lot like a shotgun in the trunk..........

road kill
12-22-2012, 04:22 PM
Road kill do you have a link to your information, I would like to be able to read and use it

I have a link up there.
The video of the LT stating tye bushmaster was in the car is gone.
But I watched his briefing..........he was a huge man with the trooper hat on.

Look at what dixiedawg posted.........

charly_t
12-22-2012, 04:27 PM
Amazing..........video of the troopers retrieving the "long gun" and the ME still claims it did all the shooting.

Not the hand guns recovered in the school.

Copied and pasted this post to show to company tonight. Quicker with my old computer and it's dial-up equip.( I hope ).

MooseGooser
12-22-2012, 04:34 PM
Uncle Bill

I have grown a scruffy stubbly beard. Diane axed me "Wuts Up"?

I told he I was trying to look like a rugged individualist....

She siad I looked more like a drunk Hippie!!

I give up..

Gooser

road kill
12-22-2012, 04:35 PM
Uncle Bill

I have grown a scruffy stubbly beard. Diane axed me "Wuts Up"?

I told he I was trying to look like a rugged individualist....

She siad I looked more like a drunk Hippie!!

I give up..

Gooser

You can't trust a guy with a beard!!!!!!http://i321.photobucket.com/albums/nn382/RevWrona/beard.jpg

dixidawg
12-22-2012, 05:08 PM
Amazing..........video of the troopers retrieving the "long gun" and the ME still claims it did all the shooting.

Not the hand guns recovered in the school.

The video is not real clear. The "long gun" doesn't look like an AR to me.

road kill
12-22-2012, 05:11 PM
The video is not real clear. The "long gun" doesn't look like an AR to me.

So, are you claiming 6 weapons were involved?
4 hand guns
1 HIGH POWERED assault weapon
1 mystery weapon in the trunk

I think you may have a scoop!

Now I hear that there was a shotgun in the car....................

huntinman
12-22-2012, 05:20 PM
A bullet hole is a bullet hole. It doesn't know whether it came from a rifle or a pistol and neither does the ME. The only thing he would be able to tell is the caliber... they would have shell casings all over the floor and bullet fragments all over to compare... The only reason the info is not out... someone does not want it out.

luvmylabs23139
12-22-2012, 05:27 PM
NO not OK with the deletion of PE. Dad killed in car wreck when I was 6 wearing seat belt. I had a pretty bad one in highschool also wearing seatbelt and not a scratch, but am certain would have gone through windshield if unbelted. ALL research and ALL evidence PROVES that seatbelts SAVE lives, so your argument there is just, well I really hate to use the term, but, stupid.


Hugh

I'm sorry you lost your dad in a car accident. I think this is a issue in many ways that people have seen both sides of. My brother was a passenger in a car that had a fatal wreck when we were in our very early 20's. The driver died. I saw the car at the scene. He would have been dead if he was wearing his seat belt. The top of the car was sheared off at the bottom of the windshield. They hit a billboard. It took a long time before I could put a seatbelt on again. I remember that next morning (it happened very late at night) my Mom going off on me for not having my seatbelt on. I also remember my gut reaction which I should not have said outloud.

road kill
12-22-2012, 05:36 PM
A bullet hole is a bullet hole. It doesn't know whether it came from a rifle or a pistol and neither does the ME. The only thing he would be able to tell is the caliber... they would have shell casings all over the floor and bullet fragments all over to compare... The only reason the info is not out... someone does not want it out.
Are you comparing this to Fast & Furious and Bengahzi????

huntinman
12-22-2012, 05:43 PM
Are you comparing this to Fast & Furious and Bengahzi????

Well... for a country that (had) a media that spoke truth to power... we sure seem to be in the dark on a multitude of issues these days.

Did you notice that even John kerry did not get to speak when he was announced for Sec Of State? That is unusual... We only hear what those in power want us to hear.

Uncle Bill
12-22-2012, 05:51 PM
Well... for a country that (had) a media that spoke truth to power... we sure seem to be in the dark on a multitude of issues these days.

Did you notice that even John kerry did not get to speak when he was announced for Sec Of State? That is unusual... We only hear what those in power want us to hear.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Great observation, Bill. Either that, or the messiah didn't want to explain a possible gaff before he spent his first day in the cabinet. He is, after all, credited with "voting for it, before I voted against it". Be quite a contest as to which "gaff machine"...Kerry or Biden...gets the most 'press'.

UB

Marvin S
12-22-2012, 09:20 PM
NO not OK with the deletion of PE. Dad killed in car wreck when I was 6 wearing seat belt. I had a pretty bad one in highschool also wearing seatbelt and not a scratch, but am certain would have gone through windshield if unbelted. ALL research and ALL evidence PROVES that seatbelts SAVE lives, so your argument there is just, well I really hate to use the term, but, stupid.

Many years ago a young draftee was heading down a gravel road with 5 other people in his dad's 4 door 1941 Chevy sedan. Needless to say they had been imbibing a little & managed to leave the road at a speed estimated @ 90 mph, clip off a telephone line 30 feet in the air & roll several times in a field. One person had a sprained wrist, other than that no other injuries besides a few sore spots, one person who knew the area walked 2 miles down the road to a ranch house to use the phone. The car was totaled but had to be repaired in it's entirety as there were no new cars available. (As an aside the dad would go into a cussing mode whenever something didn't work that had before :)) That was in the days cars were made of significant strong stuff (I won't go into the technical stuff so as not to lose you).

I owned a 53 Pontiac Catalina that I could peg that got 20 MPG with a straight 8, drove from Rapid City to Mitchell in 3 hours & 40 minutes on old Hwy 16. What I'm trying to say to you is the older cars were safer, got very good mileage, & did not require a lot of unnecessary regulation, which apparently is something you are fond of :(.

If you believe my views to be STUPID, so be it, but I haven't had to resort to name calling to advance my arguments as you are doing.


As to smoking, the biggest problem I have there is that it isn't fatal quickly or reliably enough. If you have paid ANY attention to my posts over the last couple of years, you know that I am mostly a misanthrope and think that there are way too many people on this little blue sphere and so don't really care if folks commit suicide, just wish they would use more reliable means than tobacco use. If it worked more reliably and faster, it would be a good tool to help raise the collective IQ. Actually goes for ADULTS and seat belts too.


So as a misanthrope do you favor genocide? Do you believe your IQ & your contribution to society favor your presence on this planet? Or did the big guy make a mistake when he allowed your living presence to continue when you were obviously acting stupid?

I am an ex-smoker, quit on my own many years ago before smoking became a cause, but enjoy going to a restaurant that does not allow smoking (nothing like a reformed whore) :). But the airlines are all in favor of No Smoking, the damage it did to the skins of the airplanes & the rivets that held those skins was enormous. FYI, riveting is done per BAC 5004 which allows greater tolerances.


But, all in all, you have answered nothing, so enjoy your time off :p




I have always viewed HPL as a quasi conservative...kinda a tree-hugger-saving-spotted-owls cause promoter that carries a gun... UB

UB, I actually believe we should not despoil our environment but as I am not making a profit from that I view it in a different manner than most of the huggers here. As for the individual that is in the limelight, my view is that he has a way with words, that they add up to little is of no consequence to him. But I wouldn't want him having my back in any sort of a disagreement, verbal or otherwise.

When we brought youngsters onto this planet we felt a responsibility. We did our darndest to fulfill that responsibility, including making sure they ate a healthy diet, got lot's of exercise, & knew the difference between good habits & bad habits. We did not believe it to be the responsibility of anyone to raise our kids. That included the requirement that they pay for their own education beyond grade 12. I'd like to think we & they were successful without the help of anyone.

charly_t
12-22-2012, 11:13 PM
Hhmmm. I heard tonight that the recent movie house shooting perp in CO. has a father who sits on the same board ( can't remember what board or where ) as the father of the Sandy Hook shooter. Computer tech also here says unless the hard drive was completely destroyed from the Sandy Hook shooters computer ( desk top ? ) that bits and pieces might be rescued and read ( by the FBI people ). Strange info if it is true !!!!
Just some info shared by visiters to our house this evening.............I know nothingggggg.

P.S. computer tech also said laptop hard drives are easy to destroy though.

HPL
12-26-2012, 08:50 PM
I have always viewed HPL as a quasi conservative...kinda a tree-hugger-saving-spotted-owls cause promoter that carries a gun... on occassion. He will frequently espouse a form of cradle-to-grave governmental mandates, like his views on seat belts, and I suspect automobile air bags. I often wonder if those imposed government 'safety' costs, that increase what's charged to the consumer, ever enlighten him? Has he ever considered that in the current environment of CTG G-ment 'protection'...like uninsured and UNDERinsured motorist coverage the current laws require all of us law-abiding car owners to carry, that all we succeed in doing is enlarging the pool of non-responsible drivers? Hellsbells, some of these ignoramuses jump into these vehicles and act like they are in a bumper-car, with no responsibilities at all.

Living in a nation regulated by a Constitution that is based on liberty and freedom, it's always amazed me how frequently the leftists are so quick to have those freedoms legislated away...or worse, quick to spend someone elses money to enforce all those newly legislated regulations. The idea of rugged individualism is lost among these socialist/communistic thinkers. How could some of these folks, that call themselves Americans, have allowed the "free-ice-cream" crowd to foolishly put in place a regime that has a vendetta to ruin this country. We laugh at the imbiciles in California that voted in more taxes, so they presumably could continue to get their freebies, having no thought whatsoever about what happens when the producers quit...and leave.

The Bill Bonner column I posted pretty much sums up my thoughts on our current condition in this nation. It's doubtful either of our great grandkids will get out from under this crushing debt. The government spending will continue until we have turned this nation into another Greece, and we are powerless to stop it.

UB

You think I'm a liberal and Murral thinks I'm a reactionary so I think I have actually positioned myself just about right.

IN Texas, the only insurance that you are required to carry is liability so that when you cause a wreck and total MY vehicle and put ME in the hospital, I have some recourse. If you aren't carrying liability ins and are judgement proof, where does that leave me, the injured party?



If you don't care if people live or die then why would you want them to wear a seat belt. You seem to contradict yourself all in one breath.
Pete

Adults can do what they want (as long as it doesn't put me and mine at risk), mainline draino for all I care. Wear your seatbelt or don't, I have no opinion there (as long as when you are in an accident and incur injuries that would have been prevented by the belt you don't then sue others for your stupidity). Minors are a different matter. When you are responsible for another's life (that is to say a minor in your care), I think it is just fine to hold you accountable for how you exercise that responsibility.

JDogger
12-26-2012, 09:33 PM
HMMMMM....Looks Like I Was Correct (or not)!!!


Stan, you're always correct...JD

HPL
12-26-2012, 09:37 PM
(I won't go into the technical stuff so as not to lose you).

What I'm trying to say to you is the older cars were safer, got very good mileage, & did not require a lot of unnecessary regulation, which apparently is something you are fond of :(.

If you believe my views to be STUPID, so be it, but I haven't had to resort to name calling to advance my arguments as you are doing.

So as a misanthrope do you favor genocide? Do you believe your IQ & your contribution to society favor your presence on this planet? Or did the big guy make a mistake when he allowed your living presence to continue when you were obviously acting stupid?


But, all in all, you have answered nothing, so enjoy your time off :p


You don't need to "leave out the technical stuff", as you have alluded too yourself, I'm relatively quick, and I do hang out with smart folks (some of whom are even smarter than I am), so if you get into something that is beyond my ken, I probably know someone who could 'splain it to me. As to your statement that the old, heavy, all steel cars were safer than the new models, that is just demonstrably not true. You will just have to chalk it up to my quirkiness, but I am going to have to go with the engineers and the statisticians on this one. I would also point out that I didn't call YOU stupid, I said that your apparent position on seatbelts was stupid. I've had numerous stupid ideas over the years. The idea that under most circumstances, wearing a seatbelt doesn't improve your chances of surviving an auto accident, is demonstrably wrong. Certainly seatbelts won't always save you (my father is an excellent example of that), nor will not wearing one always result in a worse outcome than one would have obtained wearing the belt. Odds do, however tilt greatly in favor of the person wearing the belt (again statistics seem to prove that pretty conclusively).

Do I favor genocide? No. Not having a great love for mankind in general doesn't mean one would necessarily sanction the extirpation of entire races or ethnic groups, nor would it even mean that one lacks compassion.
Do I think I'm a gift from God? Well as an agnostic (on a good day), I would have to say no. Is my life worth more than anyone else's? Only to me, my wife, and my aging mother (and not really to me sometimes).

You quit smoking? Good for you, but as I have said many times, as an adult for whom I have no emotional attachment, do what you want, smoke, eat toadstools, lick toads, whatever, YOU'RE AN ADULT, no skin off my nose.

As to "having anyone's back" in a confrontation, verbal or otherwise, well, since I have a way with words, I might be of some help if I believed in your position (or thought it would amuse me) verbally. Don't know about a fist fight, haven't been involved in one since highschool so not a lot of skill there (doubt that many in my crowd have either). There are some causes that would warrant risking imprisonment or worse, but from what I can tell, most physical confrontations among adults are over fairly frivolous issues. I'm not beating on someone because they called you a jackass or besmirched your favorite sports team, or even suggested that some female relative of yours was not as virtuous as one would wish. Minor irritations in the overall scope of things.

Marvin S
12-27-2012, 11:15 AM
You don't need to "leave out the technical stuff", as you have alluded too yourself, I'm relatively quick, and I do hang out with smart folks (some of whom are even smarter than I am), so if you get into something that is beyond my ken, I probably know someone who could 'splain it to me.

Obviously you have a very high opinion of your abilities. I've met a few folks like that, mostly liberal & generally overrating their ability :rolleyes:. Your education is ??????????????, your vocation past & present are ?????

Where I worked after a change in careers, there were many who wanted to feel they could be engineers. Other than lacking the education plus any desire to attain same & the innate ability to solve technical issues, they continued to want a seat at the table. As one of my higher level supervisors stated "the good engineers are like toast, they pop up, but the loaf they originate from is small".

HPL
12-27-2012, 12:04 PM
My education is as a biologist/ecologist, so some math, a good portion of chemistry, somestatistics, some physics, and for grad school, quite a bit of critical thinking. Not an engineer, but my brother is and is the TOP safety engineer for a national corporation, I have a number of friends that are engineers and other technical folks, and so, as I said, if I don't understand it, I probably know folks who can 'splain it to me. Have quite a bit of respect for engineers in general, although many design engineers clearly have never had to work on or repair the items for which they are responsible. If you are an engineer and maintain that the old all steel vehicles with hard steel interiors and nothing to prevent you from flying into said interiors or through the old style windows when the vehicle came to an abrupt halt upon encountering an immovable object were in fact safer than current models, well, perhaps time to hang up the ole slide rule. I have had enough physics, enough biology, and enough statistics to be pretty certain that I'm safer belted into a modern F150 than bouncing loose in an old F-1.

Marvin S
12-27-2012, 06:41 PM
, some physics

You would understand? when I present F=MA :).


Not an engineer, but my brother is and is the TOP safety engineer for a national corporation, I have a number of friends that are engineers and other technical folks, and so, as I said, if I don't understand it, I probably know folks who can 'splain it to me. Have quite a bit of respect for engineers in general, although many design engineers clearly have never had to work on or repair the items for which they are responsible. If you are an engineer and maintain that the old all steel vehicles with hard steel interiors and nothing to prevent you from flying into said interiors or through the old style windows when the vehicle came to an abrupt halt upon encountering an immovable object were in fact safer than current models, well, perhaps time to hang up the ole slide rule. I have had enough physics, enough biology, and enough statistics to be pretty certain that I'm safer belted into a modern F150 than bouncing loose in an old F-1.

One of my son's is the top safety guy for his refinery - has no degree :). But you are now laying conditions, anyone driving Out of Control around immovable objects deserves what happens. But in a headon I'll take my old Pontiac, the chevy in the rollover or a Packard any time over that thing F calls a truck. Having owned 17 brand new F's over the years I am well aware of the safery & durability that is inherent in a F. Built Ford Tough is a slogan, not a fact :rolleyes:.

HPL
12-27-2012, 07:39 PM
WEll, my brother has a degree and isn't the "local safety guy", he's the head safety engineer for the continental US at least and maybe for the whole of North America travels to sites all over NA and even some international stuff (Germany for sure).
I believe F stands for force and that it equals Mass times Acceleration, a pretty simple concept in physics. I believe that we were talking about the safety of old vehicles manufactured before some govt mandates and newer models manufactured with high tech materials. True, in a collision between a packard and a smart car, If I were wearing a seatbelt, I might prefer to be in the Packard, but would want some input from my engineering friends before making that decision. In a collision between a 1963 VW beetle and 2011 Altima, give me the Altima everytime. If not belted in, and no airbags or other features to ameliorate the effects caused by the impact of my body with the inside of the vehicle, I would prefer to be in the vehicle that will experience the slowest rate of deceleration, so the vehicle with the greatest mass.

I'm not laying conditions. You said that old vehicles are safer than modern vehicles built from high tech materials and incorporating advanced safety features. I said, not true. Hit a Packard head on with another Packard and you are probably less likely to survive than if you hit 2012 Volvo head on with another 2012 Volvo.

Blackstone
12-27-2012, 08:51 PM
Interesting debate, but I have to agree with HPL. New vehicles are much safer. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety also agrees. Older cars didn't have decent seat belts, if they had any at all. They didn't have air bags, crumple zones, or other energy absorbing features present in modern cars. Older cars may have been made of thicker metal, but in most cases their structure provides less protection than modern models.

Attached is a link to a video showing what happened when the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety crashed a 1959 Bel Air head on into a 2009 Malibu (well, frontal offset test). The Bel Air didn't fair too well, and either did the crash dummy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g

HPL
12-27-2012, 09:06 PM
I have to say that I certainly didn't intend for my comment concerning the ridiculousness of the reactions to the Sandy Hook shooting to end up this far afield. Marvin and UB both goaded me a bit and I unfortunately rose to the bait. Should have ignored the distraction, but just couldn't help myself. Marvin sees ulterior motives behind every post, and UB is, well, UB. Neither understood my point. I'm not surprised. I wasn't suggesting that we need additional government regulations restricting what kids eat, what adults smoke, or whether adults wear seatbelts. The Point was that childhood obesity, tobacco use, and failure to wear seatbelts all pose greater risk to children and actually to people in general than do so called assault weapons. A huge amount of money and time will be squandered on what is, in fact, a non-threat, and yet the real dangers get very little attention.

I saw no TV news and had no computer access from Saturday until last night. Do we have any definitive word on what weapon(s) were actually used yet? The long gun taken from the trunk didn't look like an AR to me either. Looked to me like maybe it had a recoil pad and could perhaps have been a shotgun.

Marvin S
12-27-2012, 09:32 PM
Interesting debate, but I have to agree with HPL. New vehicles are much safer. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety also agrees. Older cars didn't have decent seat belts, if they had any at all. They didn't have air bags, crumple zones, or other energy absorbing features present in modern cars. Older cars may have been made of thicker metal, but in most cases their structure provides less protection than modern models.

Attached is a link to a video showing what happened when the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety crashed a 1959 Bel Air head on into a 2009 Malibu (well, frontal offset test). The Bel Air didn't fair too well, and either did the crash dummy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joMK1WZjP7g

Loved the Maliboo - one of my engineers had one that the passenger side door fell off of @ 60K - beyond warranty so he just wired it on & kept driving the car :). I don't doubt that you believe what you are posting, but tests can be designed to emphasize obvious flaws while also emphasizing the good points of the vehicle being touted.

Early in my career after college graduation I worked in a Molybdenum mine. A significant amount of Molybdenum went into car bumpers at that time. Made them malleable & needless to say provided a significant 1st line of defense when playing Bumper car :). Moly because of it's molecular structure also is used in lubricants.

While I am not an expert on shaping load failure paths, I do know it is possible though expensive to do so. Composites will provide a significant weight reduction but again are expensive. Cars today are built like pop cans, one only need to get into a slight fender bender to see the damage wrought & the after market expense thereof.

You guys can believe what you want to - I spent the last 25 years of my career designing & repairing airplanes - if it made any difference I could probably scare up a very capable Stress guy that would blow holes in your theory - He could give you the numbers, my forte was the practical side - I can still look at a piece of metal that has not been uniformly Heat treated & predict the failure point from my mining days -

Beyond that - unless something worthy comes up I think I will retire for the night :cool:.

JDogger
12-27-2012, 10:07 PM
You would understand? when I present F=MA :).


:rolleyes:

I can't speak for HPL, but even in Physics for Poets 212, Force = Mass X Accelertion was explained in a way that even an engineer could grasp.
Do you really need to be a chicken to know what an egg is? JD

Sleep tight.

Blackstone
12-27-2012, 11:13 PM
Loved the Maliboo - one of my engineers had one that the passenger side door fell off of @ 60K - beyond warranty so he just wired it on & kept driving the car :). I don't doubt that you believe what you are posting, but tests can be designed to emphasize obvious flaws while also emphasizing the good points of the vehicle being touted.

Early in my career after college graduation I worked in a Molybdenum mine. A significant amount of Molybdenum went into car bumpers at that time. Made them malleable & needless to say provided a significant 1st line of defense when playing Bumper car :). Moly because of it's molecular structure also is used in lubricants.

While I am not an expert on shaping load failure paths, I do know it is possible though expensive to do so. Composites will provide a significant weight reduction but again are expensive. Cars today are built like pop cans, one only need to get into a slight fender bender to see the damage wrought & the after market expense thereof.

You guys can believe what you want to - I spent the last 25 years of my career designing & repairing airplanes - if it made any difference I could probably scare up a very capable Stress guy that would blow holes in your theory - He could give you the numbers, my forte was the practical side - I can still look at a piece of metal that has not been uniformly Heat treated & predict the failure point from my mining days -

Beyond that - unless something worthy comes up I think I will retire for the night :cool:.

So, you think the crash test was rigged? The energy resulting from a crash has to go somewhere. Either the car can absorb it, or the occupants in the car can absorb it. That's why modern cars have crumple zones. It's the same reason Formula 1 cars are designed to tear apart in a collision. The trans, engine, wheels, etc. all tale a considerable amount of the energy with them when they come off. Older cars don’t have crumple zones and have rigid steering wheel columns that can crush a driver’s chest during an accident. I would much rather take my chances in a modern car than in an old one.

Marvin S
12-28-2012, 01:01 PM
So, you think the crash test was rigged?

I'm not saying that at all :). What I am saying is one should look at things which will benefit the party making the statement? You do remember the more recent crash of the market where the ratings companies all gave high marks to financial garbage? Why did they do that, because it went to their bottom line, a temporary situation at best, but if they are gone, do they care?

While I was still gainfully employed there were programs available & in use that allowed the access of data in crash tests without destroying anything. Foreign impact strikes are a big deal in the airline industry, as we saw with the goose ingestion by the engines in NY. I am sure they have improved on those programs over the years as the airline industry is meritocracy driven :cool:.

Are new cars more comfortable, generally so, are they more safe, I don't think so.

duk4me
12-28-2012, 01:13 PM
I'm not saying that at all :). What I am saying is one should look at things which will benefit the party making the statement? You do remember the more recent crash of the market where the ratings companies all gave high marks to financial garbage? Why did they do that, because it went to their bottom line, a temporary situation at best, but if they are gone, do they care?

While I was still gainfully employed there were programs available & in use that allowed the access of data in crash tests without destroying anything. Foreign impact strikes are a big deal in the airline industry, as we saw with the goose ingestion by the engines in NY. I am sure they have improved on those programs over the years as the airline industry is meritocracy driven :cool:.

Are new cars more comfortable, generally so, are they more safe, I don't think so.

I must say this is the first evidence of the legalizaton of MJ in the PNW.