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Sabireley
01-01-2013, 06:27 PM
Rather than highjack the Milk thread, I thought I would start a new one...

http://www.croplife.com/article/27808/2012-farm-bill-15-key-points-you-need-to-know

This is a good summary of the Farm Bill. It is a little dated but passed with most of these items in tact. One big item that affects hunters a reduction in the CRP programs and condensing the various programs into four. Lots of bird and other hunting is done on CRP land that would otherwise be unusable or in crops. I do not know how the effectiveness of federal government programs compare with private organizations like DU.

This summary does not explain the Milk subsidy.

charly_t
01-01-2013, 08:59 PM
Rather than highjack the Milk thread, I thought I would start a new one...

http://www.croplife.com/article/27808/2012-farm-bill-15-key-points-you-need-to-know

This is a good summary of the Farm Bill. It is a little dated but passed with most of these items in tact. One big item that affects hunters a reduction in the CRP programs and condensing the various programs into four. Lots of bird and other hunting is done on CRP land that would otherwise be unusable or in crops. I do not know how the effectiveness of federal government programs compare with private organizations like DU.

This summary does not explain the Milk subsidy.

Thank you so much for that link.

Pals
01-01-2013, 10:02 PM
CRP-many aspects they got right with the program. Taking marginal or floodplain out of production, while allowing some income from said ground. Then like everything two agencies got into a pissing match in DC and the program has now become a paperwork nightmare, with stupid rules written by people who never leave their offices and wouldn't know a bluestem from a cow turd. And forget any actual common sense when it comes to managing for habitat..........

charly_t
01-01-2013, 10:23 PM
CRP-many aspects they got right with the program. Taking marginal or floodplain out of production, while allowing some income from said ground. Then like everything two agencies got into a pissing match in DC and the program has now become a paperwork nightmare, with stupid rules written by people who never leave their offices and wouldn't know a bluestem from a cow turd. And forget any actual common sense when it comes to managing for habitat..........

I know that I have told this story many times before........

We had floods constantly undercutting the creek bank next to our carport. We needed to put more dirt back under and on the bank. We checked with the powers that be and found that we needed the okay from three government agencies in order to do this. Not sure if Agencies is the correct term but we did as we were told. One young man with college degrees etc. in this field came out and did his inspection. Enjoyed his visit .........
He said that his Dad ( a farmer ) hated the government programs etc. Then he said with a grin "here I am working for the government". :-)

caryalsobrook
01-02-2013, 06:29 AM
CRP-many aspects they got right with the program. Taking marginal or floodplain out of production, while allowing some income from said ground. Then like everything two agencies got into a pissing match in DC and the program has now become a paperwork nightmare, with stupid rules written by people who never leave their offices and wouldn't know a bluestem from a cow turd. And forget any actual common sense when it comes to managing for habitat..........
I could write a book about CRP. They got NOTHING right about it. You state that it removed marginal and floodplane land from production First, land considered marginal 20 years ago is no longer marginal given the changes and improvements in farming. Second, any idiot shold know that reules and regulations designed for say Colorado could not possibily be reasonable for Tennessee or Alabama, and that is exactly what we have. It only gives power to the gov. to violate their own rules. They rule of thumb here is to do what you want then plead ignorance and ask for forgiveness, my guess about the only way to deal with the gov.

Concerning floodplane land, let me give you a personal experience. My sister owns a farm that has a field of about 70 acres which my father at his own expense, many years ago, levied it for flood control. Today you can only do this if the gov. deams it to be proper. In the middle of the 70 acre field is about 1/20th of an acre that is about 6-12 inches lower than the rest of the field. It was classified as wetlands and put the field under wetland regulation. It took 4 years to get the Federal permits for what i wanted to do with the field, which included letting perfectly good land go idle as payment for allowing me just to widen the levees so that the larger equipment of today to maintain the levees. I politely told them to KMA. I then contacted DU and after a good deal of discussion, we had a plan That was bendficial to all. Du paid for culverts, gates and the dirtwork that allowed for water to be held in the field but controlled. We now hold water till the 1st of Mar. and i have seen as many as 5-10 thousand ducks there between Feb-March 1st. Erosion is controlled, habitat for ducks is greatly improved. and overall the farm is more productive agriculturely. My father bought that farm in the 1930's and when he died, it was a better farm than when he bought it. when my sister dies, it will be a better farm than when she got it.

5 years ago I bought a farm that was in 2 tracts which was in CRP. i paid between 1700-1800 per acre. On 1 tract which would have remained in CRP for another 10 years, I paid $18,000, which was all previous payments plus interest plus penalty just to get it out of CRP. The other tract would have cost me $60,000 to get it out so I chose to wait for the contract to expire which it did this year. Today, if I weere to put it up for sale at $4500.00/acre it would sell in a day. turned out as a really good deal for me but actually hurt the previous owner. Now I can improve the land. We have already burned the fields and sowed it in wheat. Every day it rains, I ride over it to look for problems that hav to be fixed to prevent soil erosion and to improve the farm. I can't wait to get started. I intend to leave the farm in better shape to my son when I die and am teaching him that he is to leave it in better shape to his kids when he dies. On another farm I show him what his great great grandfather did, what his grand father did and what I have done to improve it, and what I plan to do if i live long enough. I teach him to leave the land in better shape than when he got it. I will tell you that THE BIGGEST HENDRENCE TO THAT IS THE GOV.!!

As I said i could write a book on this issue. I will close with something I am extremely proud. Many farmers in the area have told me my father was decades ahead of other farmers when it came to soil conservation and caretaker of the land. I only hope that he would be proud of what i have done with the land I own.

Pals
01-02-2013, 08:20 AM
I could write a book about CRP. They got NOTHING right about it. You state that it removed marginal and floodplane land from production First, land considered marginal 20 years ago is no longer marginal given the changes and improvements in farming. Second, any idiot shold know that reules and regulations designed for say Colorado could not possibily be reasonable for Tennessee or Alabama, and that is exactly what we have. It only gives power to the gov. to violate their own rules. They rule of thumb here is to do what you want then plead ignorance and ask for forgiveness, my guess about the only way to deal with the gov.

Concerning floodplane land, let me give you a personal experience. My sister owns a farm that has a field of about 70 acres which my father at his own expense, many years ago, levied it for flood control. Today you can only do this if the gov. deams it to be proper. In the middle of the 70 acre field is about 1/20th of an acre that is about 6-12 inches lower than the rest of the field. It was classified as wetlands and put the field under wetland regulation. It took 4 years to get the Federal permits for what i wanted to do with the field, which included letting perfectly good land go idle as payment for allowing me just to widen the levees so that the larger equipment of today to maintain the levees. I politely told them to KMA. I then contacted DU and after a good deal of discussion, we had a plan That was bendficial to all. Du paid for culverts, gates and the dirtwork that allowed for water to be held in the field but controlled. We now hold water till the 1st of Mar. and i have seen as many as 5-10 thousand ducks there between Feb-March 1st. Erosion is controlled, habitat for ducks is greatly improved. and overall the farm is more productive agriculturely. My father bought that farm in the 1930's and when he died, it was a better farm than when he bought it. when my sister dies, it will be a better farm than when she got it.

5 years ago I bought a farm that was in 2 tracts which was in CRP. i paid between 1700-1800 per acre. On 1 tract which would have remained in CRP for another 10 years, I paid $18,000, which was all previous payments plus interest plus penalty just to get it out of CRP. The other tract would have cost me $60,000 to get it out so I chose to wait for the contract to expire which it did this year. Today, if I weere to put it up for sale at $4500.00/acre it would sell in a day. turned out as a really good deal for me but actually hurt the previous owner. Now I can improve the land. We have already burned the fields and sowed it in wheat. Every day it rains, I ride over it to look for problems that hav to be fixed to prevent soil erosion and to improve the farm. I can't wait to get started. I intend to leave the farm in better shape to my son when I die and am teaching him that he is to leave it in better shape to his kids when he dies. On another farm I show him what his great great grandfather did, what his grand father did and what I have done to improve it, and what I plan to do if i live long enough. I teach him to leave the land in better shape than when he got it. I will tell you that THE BIGGEST HENDRENCE TO THAT IS THE GOV.!!

As I said i could write a book on this issue. I will close with something I am extremely proud. Many farmers in the area have told me my father was decades ahead of other farmers when it came to soil conservation and caretaker of the land. I only hope that he would be proud of what i have done with the land I own.

Tell me something--Do YOU think YOU are the norm for farmers and landowners? If you were we would not need regulations and habitat groups now would we?? I've worked with farmers for over 20 years, I've been the habitat chairman for our local PF for since it started, I own several farms--all floodplain or timber. In the midwest the average farmer doesn't give a crap about habitat or wildlife, the average farm is owned by absentee landowners (either in proximity or brain power) who don't give a flip what their tenants are doing as long as they pay the cash rent. We have lost and continue to lose trees, wetlands and fencerows faster then you can even begin to imagine. Every week I see habitat being destroyed by landowners and farmers. So don't preach to me about your little corner of the world. Good for you. Good for me for putting wetlands back on my farm. GUESS WHAT!?--we are not the NORM. Those regulations and programs are a nightmare, I don't like them anymore than the next person. It makes my job of helping those that want help hell. Don't talk to me about marginal ground and abilities of farming these days. Marginal ground is still marginal ground, just because you dump 300.00/ac into it each year for 60bu/ac soybeans @ $15/bu or 180bu/ac corn @ $6/bu and then clap when you are not flooded out or push the water downstream faster making it your neighbors problem doesn't make it prime farmland. I could write a book too--and here is a newsflash--farmers are not knights in shining armor. Most of my farmers raise only corn and soybeans, most are good decent men and most don't give a crap about habitat because they are trying to make money and lets face it, for many corn and soybean farmers habitat means squat--the only habitat is CRP on the majority of farms around here. I've worked in some of the most rich productive prairie soils imaginable--we are talking 75 bu avg soybeans and 280+ bu corn AVERAGE--those farmers were some of the most cut throat individuals I've ever met, going to wakes to undercut their neighbors and get in good with the widow, $300+ cash rent and higher.....very common occurance. Bigger is better right?? 40' planters, 60' combine platforms I see them everyday--I also see the family farm slowly dying, livestock on pastures--almost gone. I busted my butt to get habitat back on those farms and it took me 15 years to make a dent. I jumped for joy with the quail border program and now its a nightmare because of DC. Now I'm in a county with MARGINAL ground and the farmers are much more receptive to habitat, they lease out their timber ground for hunting, they strip till their crappy timber soil, they let their FLOODPLAINS flood and they are very proactive with gully erosion and fixing problems. AND still every week someone is tearing out trees and straightening creeks/ditches. Thats the reality here in Illinois. If everyone treated their land like I do or you, the rivers wouldn't be a nightmare, soil erosion would be sustainable and wildlife of all types would be flourishing.

I do everything I can to help my farmers, many came to my wedding, many still call me for help even though I no longer work in their counties, I know what it is like to be a landowner who worries about the mortage, I know the frustrations of my landowners. For the most part I would not trade my farmers for anything but there are times.....

caryalsobrook
01-02-2013, 09:35 AM
Tell me something--Do YOU think YOU are the norm for farmers and landowners? If you were we would not need regulations and habitat groups now would we?? I've worked with farmers for over 20 years, I've been the habitat chairman for our local PF for since it started, I own several farms--all floodplain or timber. In the midwest the average farmer doesn't give a crap about habitat or wildlife, the average farm is owned by absentee landowners (either in proximity or brain power) who don't give a flip what their tenants are doing as long as they pay the cash rent. We have lost and continue to lose trees, wetlands and fencerows faster then you can even begin to imagine. Every week I see habitat being destroyed by landowners and farmers. So don't preach to me about your little corner of the world. Good for you. Good for me for putting wetlands back on my farm. GUESS WHAT!?--we are not the NORM. Those regulations and programs are a nightmare, I don't like them anymore than the next person. It makes my job of helping those that want help hell. Don't talk to me about marginal ground and abilities of farming these days. Marginal ground is still marginal ground, just because you dump 300.00/ac into it each year for 60bu/ac soybeans @ $15/bu or 180bu/ac corn @ $6/bu and then clap when you are not flooded out or push the water downstream faster making it your neighbors problem doesn't make it prime farmland. I could write a book too--and here is a newsflash--farmers are not knights in shining armor. Most of my farmers raise only corn and soybeans, most are good decent men and most don't give a crap about habitat because they are trying to make money and lets face it, for many corn and soybean farmers habitat means squat--the only habitat is CRP on the majority of farms around here. I've worked in some of the most rich productive prairie soils imaginable--we are talking 75 bu avg soybeans and 280+ bu corn AVERAGE--those farmers were some of the most cut throat individuals I've ever met, going to wakes to undercut their neighbors and get in good with the widow, $300+ cash rent and higher.....very common occurance. Bigger is better right?? 40' planters, 60' combine platforms I see them everyday--I also see the family farm slowly dying, livestock on pastures--almost gone. I busted my butt to get habitat back on those farms and it took me 15 years to make a dent. I jumped for joy with the quail border program and now its a nightmare because of DC. Now I'm in a county with MARGINAL ground and the farmers are much more receptive to habitat, they lease out their timber ground for hunting, they strip till their crappy timber soil, they let their FLOODPLAINS flood and they are very proactive with gully erosion and fixing problems. AND still every week someone is tearing out trees and straightening creeks/ditches. Thats the reality here in Illinois. If everyone treated their land like I do or you, the rivers wouldn't be a nightmare, soil erosion would be sustainable and wildlife of all types would be flourishing.

I do everything I can to help my farmers, many came to my wedding, many still call me for help even though I no longer work in their counties, I know what it is like to be a landowner who worries about the mortage, I know the frustrations of my landowners. For the most part I would not trade my farmers for anything but there are times.....

First let me say that I am sure some of my ideas as to improving MY land are those you would be opposed to. Some we would agree. When you use the term "my farmers", are you referring to those that YOU agree with, and those "crappy farmers" those you dissagree with? No system will ever be perfect. As to "familyfarmers", today I have no idea what that is. The man who farms my land farms about 8000 acres, has probably 8-10 million in equipment and probably makes less than $150,000 on a good year. He owns only a small amount of the land he farms. Is he a family farmer? He has a trackhoe, dozier, dirtpan, and a backhoe. I'm sure you know what these are for. As for the farmers in my area, those are the same ones that tell me my father was decades ahead of the times. I have habitat on my farms. The biggest problem is with the 4-wheeler riders and hunters who think they are stakeholders because they eat food and wear clothes? Hunters have to understand that if they want habitat and hunt, THEY HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.
One reason I like to drive is because I love to see the country. Obviously your area is quite different than mine. This area is highly erodable. The farm I now sit on in my camper is quite unique. You could take a dirtpan and remove 4 feet of soil, lime for ph and plant it that year with no problem. Organic material has been measured at 70 feet deep. Long story as to why. Makes it facinating as how to manage it. You mention ditches. In the 50's Gov. came in and cleaned the ditch next to this farm causing erosion that I am still to this day trying to deal with. Probably total of $80,000 in the last 5 years. He had a fit when they did that. They even tried concreate bags to stop the erosion but the water tossed them around like ping pong balls. I', sure we would argue about what I do but it would be friendly so long as you were not a dictator for which I had no choice. that is the problem I have with the gov. I have learned to keep my mouth shut when talking to the soil conservation ag. dept and try to be smarter than them. Along with my farmer we have been fairly successful.

mngundog
01-02-2013, 09:39 AM
Tell me something--Do YOU think YOU are the norm for farmers and landowners? If you were we would not need regulations and habitat groups now would we?? I've worked with farmers for over 20 years, I've been the habitat chairman for our local PF for since it started, I own several farms--all floodplain or timber. In the midwest the average farmer doesn't give a crap about habitat or wildlife, the average farm is owned by absentee landowners (either in proximity or brain power) who don't give a flip what their tenants are doing as long as they pay the cash rent. We have lost and continue to lose trees, wetlands and fencerows faster then you can even begin to imagine. Every week I see habitat being destroyed by landowners and farmers. So don't preach to me about your little corner of the world. Good for you. Good for me for putting wetlands back on my farm. GUESS WHAT!?--we are not the NORM. Those regulations and programs are a nightmare, I don't like them anymore than the next person. It makes my job of helping those that want help hell. Don't talk to me about marginal ground and abilities of farming these days. Marginal ground is still marginal ground, just because you dump 300.00/ac into it each year for 60bu/ac soybeans @ $15/bu or 180bu/ac corn @ $6/bu and then clap when you are not flooded out or push the water downstream faster making it your neighbors problem doesn't make it prime farmland. I could write a book too--and here is a newsflash--farmers are not knights in shining armor. Most of my farmers raise only corn and soybeans, most are good decent men and most don't give a crap about habitat because they are trying to make money and lets face it, for many corn and soybean farmers habitat means squat--the only habitat is CRP on the majority of farms around here. I've worked in some of the most rich productive prairie soils imaginable--we are talking 75 bu avg soybeans and 280+ bu corn AVERAGE--those farmers were some of the most cut throat individuals I've ever met, going to wakes to undercut their neighbors and get in good with the widow, $300+ cash rent and higher.....very common occurance. Bigger is better right?? 40' planters, 60' combine platforms I see them everyday--I also see the family farm slowly dying, livestock on pastures--almost gone. I busted my butt to get habitat back on those farms and it took me 15 years to make a dent. I jumped for joy with the quail border program and now its a nightmare because of DC. Now I'm in a county with MARGINAL ground and the farmers are much more receptive to habitat, they lease out their timber ground for hunting, they strip till their crappy timber soil, they let their FLOODPLAINS flood and they are very proactive with gully erosion and fixing problems. AND still every week someone is tearing out trees and straightening creeks/ditches. Thats the reality here in Illinois. If everyone treated their land like I do or you, the rivers wouldn't be a nightmare, soil erosion would be sustainable and wildlife of all types would be flourishing.

I do everything I can to help my farmers, many came to my wedding, many still call me for help even though I no longer work in their counties, I know what it is like to be a landowner who worries about the mortage, I know the frustrations of my landowners. For the most part I would not trade my farmers for anything but there are times.....
Most hunters are unwilling to spend $20k-60K on marginal cropland and let it set idle for habitat, yet if a farmer is unwilling to let his $60k cropland set idle he doesn't give a crap about habitat, funny stuff......... Maybe a hunting licenses should only be issued to those who give a dam about habitat and are willing to drop $20k on idle land.

caryalsobrook
01-02-2013, 10:26 AM
Most hunters are unwilling to spend $20k-60K on marginal cropland and let it set idle for habitat, yet if a farmer is unwilling to let his $60k cropland set idle he doesn't give a crap about habitat, funny stuff......... Maybe a hunting licenses should only be issued to those who give a dam about habitat and are willing to drop $20k on idle land.
When hunters realize that habitat is an asset and are willing to pay for it(I am happy to say that most are), then there will be habitat. If there was as strict laws to protect the owner as those to protect habitat and they were ENFORCED then there would be habitat. I do have habitat for deer, turkey, and ducks ect. and you can't imagine the problems I have with poachers, 4-wheelers, and those who dump garbage on the farm. Try to get action even if you catch them. Good luck.

Pals
01-02-2013, 10:27 AM
My farmers: All that I work with. I don't get to pick and choose, nor would I. I may not agree with what they do with their land--but so what--its their land. Do you know how many evening phone calls I take about guys trying to work on drainage issues?? Not everyone in an Ag office is a prick or power hungry jerk. And yes most corn/soybean farmers in the fabulous prairie soils don't give a crap about habitat. I can count on one hand maybe two the farmers that came to the PF or DU banquets, even though they will happily take the money offered by those groups.
Harsh?! Too bad. It is what it is.

As an edit: tresspassers suck. I deal with them all the time. Makes me crazy. Most don't own land and think its their RIGHT to go where ever they want.

caryalsobrook
01-02-2013, 10:49 AM
My farmers: All that I work with. I don't get to pick and choose, nor would I. I may not agree with what they do with their land--but so what--its their land. Do you know how many evening phone calls I take about guys trying to work on drainage issues?? Not everyone in an Ag office is a prick or power hungry jerk. And yes most corn/soybean farmers in the fabulous prairie soils don't give a crap about habitat. I can count on one hand maybe two the farmers that came to the PF or DU banquets, even though they will happily take the money offered by those groups.
Harsh?! Too bad. It is what it is.

As an edit: tresspassers suck. I deal with them all the time. Makes me crazy. Most don't own land and think its their RIGHT to go where ever they want.
I didn't want to make assumptions but it does appear that you work or have worked in gov. soil conservation. First of in any field there are good people to work with and bad. that goes for farmers and gov. soilconservationists.

If you are(were) in soil conservation let me ask you a question. Maybe you can help me in approaching them here. 3 years ago we did a project that cost me about 1/4 and gov about 3/4. Had I done it alone it prob would have cost me about half. As you know 100% has to be done as the gov. says, with it paying a portion and me paying a portion. They designed it and that was the way that it had to be done. Well now due to the design, it has failed. Am I responsible for fixing it now at my expense even though it had to be done their way or will the gov pay the cost of fixing it. How would you approach it if you were me. Your ideas would be appreciated since I will have to do something soon to stop the erosion that is now taking place.

PS
On the very creek that they cleaned the trees off of in the 1950's

Golddogs
01-02-2013, 10:49 AM
My farmers: All that I work with. I don't get to pick and choose, nor would I. I may not agree with what they do with their land--but so what--its their land. Do you know how many evening phone calls I take about guys trying to work on drainage issues?? Not everyone in an Ag office is a prick or power hungry jerk. And yes most corn/soybean farmers in the fabulous prairie soils don't give a crap about habitat. I can count on one hand maybe two the farmers that came to the PF or DU banquets, even though they will happily take the money offered by those groups.
Harsh?! Too bad. It is what it is.

As an edit: tresspassers suck. I deal with them all the time. Makes me crazy. Most don't own land and think its their RIGHT to go where ever they want.

As witnessed by the numerous slews being burned in SD this fall with the idea of getting one crop in so the crop insurance program can be scamed the following year when the drought ends. Should be a minimum of 5 consecutive years or more of being able to produce on ground before you can claim crop failure.

Food Stamps are not the only Program being scamed Regards

caryalsobrook
01-02-2013, 10:59 AM
As witnessed by the numerous slews being burned in SD this fall with the idea of getting one crop in so the crop insurance program can be scamed the following year when the drought ends. Should be a minimum of 5 consecutive years or more of being able to produce on ground before you can claim crop failure.

Food Stamps are not the only Program being scamed Regards

That is why I HAVE NO CROP INSURANCE. I don't want to argue whether I have a legitimate claim or one of the scam artists. I take my chances and live with it.
There hasn't been a gov. program that has not been scamed. Just take a look at all the lawyer ads on TV.;) Get rid of such programs and you get rid of the scam artists. Those that want insurance can go to the privat sector and pay a market price for it.

Pals
01-02-2013, 11:04 AM
I didn't want to make assumptions but it does appear that you work or have worked in gov. soil conservation. First of in any field there are good people to work with and bad. that goes for farmers and gov. soilconservationists.

If you are(were) in soil conservation let me ask you a question. Maybe you can help me in approaching them here. 3 years ago we did a project that cost me about 1/4 and gov about 3/4. Had I done it alone it prob would have cost me about half. As you know 100% has to be done as the gov. says, with it paying a portion and me paying a portion. They designed it and that was the way that it had to be done. Well now due to the design, it has failed. Am I responsible for fixing it now at my expense even though it had to be done their way or will the gov pay the cost of fixing it. How would you approach it if you were me. Your ideas would be appreciated since I will have to do something soon to stop the erosion that is now taking place.

PS
On the very creek that they cleaned the trees off of in the 1950's


EQIP, CRP or WRP? Yes-- it has to meet standard and specs(and most of the time these are in line with PE standards, they are ok, most of the time)....sigh....anyway it failed. Here is where you have more options then you think--those standards? It had to be signed off on as meeting those standards and specs after it was built in order for you to have received your cost share payment, it has to last at least 10 years, so you have a leg to stand on without getting into a pissing match. First take pictures, document exactly when and why it failed. Also document your Operation and maintainence--cleaned out in front, checked to make sure no animals were in berm, mowed berm, etc.... (without seeing the project--could be a major rain event?--all projects are designed for ___year storm events, toad stranglers are my worst nightmare!) Next call the office and schedule an appointment with the DC. Bring all your supporting documentation and ask what can be done to fix this and bring it back to standards and specs. Do you see where I'm going here? :cool: You can PM some pictures and details and I can walk you through what to do. The political climate being what it is--conservation is going to be bad. We are bracing for it, and in some regards I'm looking forward to going back to the planning of old, where I can spend precious time with MY FARMERS :) and find out what they want to fix or make better. And then do it! Without playing program games.

I need more details but did they fix a head cut coming from the creek out into the field? Yes--taking out trees and straightening ditches--ranks right up there with Bush Honeysuckle, Multi-flora Rose and Autumn Olive. BRILLIANT!!! Hind sight is a wonderful thing....

caryalsobrook
01-02-2013, 12:00 PM
EQIP, CRP or WRP? Yes-- it has to meet standard and specs(and most of the time these are in line with PE standards, they are ok, most of the time)....sigh....anyway it failed. Here is where you have more options then you think--those standards? It had to be signed off on as meeting those standards and specs after it was built in order for you to have received your cost share payment, it has to last at least 10 years, so you have a leg to stand on without getting into a pissing match. First take pictures, document exactly when and why it failed. Also document your Operation and maintainence--cleaned out in front, checked to make sure no animals were in berm, mowed berm, etc.... (without seeing the project--could be a major rain event?--all projects are designed for ___year storm events, toad stranglers are my worst nightmare!) Next call the office and schedule an appointment with the DC. Bring all your supporting documentation and ask what can be done to fix this and bring it back to standards and specs. Do you see where I'm going here? :cool: You can PM some pictures and details and I can walk you through what to do. The political climate being what it is--conservation is going to be bad. We are bracing for it, and in some regards I'm looking forward to going back to the planning of old, where I can spend precious time with MY FARMERS :) and find out what they want to fix or make better. And then do it! Without playing program games.

I need more details but did they fix a head cut coming from the creek out into the field? Yes--taking out trees and straightening ditches--ranks right up there with Bush Honeysuckle, Multi-flora Rose and Autumn Olive. BRILLIANT!!! Hind sight is a wonderful thing....I hate this laptop. Not home so all I have. Screw up constantly with this mouse. I do have a camcorder here and can get pics easily but will have hard time getting them to you. Many errands with pups that have to be delivered, one flying to Oregon friday but will get back to you later. My PM's explains me better so will go from there and thanks much for your interest.:D

paul young
01-02-2013, 12:04 PM
Most hunters are unwilling to spend $20k-60K on marginal cropland and let it set idle for habitat, yet if a farmer is unwilling to let his $60k cropland set idle he doesn't give a crap about habitat, funny stuff......... Maybe a hunting licenses should only be issued to those who give a dam about habitat and are willing to drop $20k on idle land.



Thank God I live in New England!

While I don't have the exclusive rights to any of them, I have my pick of 7 dairy farms to hunt on any given day. I gained permission to hunt them over the years by simply asking for it and pledging to treat the land as though it was my own. A handshake was "the Document".

It was exactly the same when I made a trip to prairie Canada. A polite request and a handshake went a long way up there, too.

$20,000 is over 25% of my income before taxes. No way I, or anyone I hunt with could pay that! -Paul

mngundog
01-02-2013, 12:58 PM
Thank God I live in New England!

While I don't have the exclusive rights to any of them, I have my pick of 7 dairy farms to hunt on any given day. I gained permission to hunt them over the years by simply asking for it and pledging to treat the land as though it was my own. A handshake was "the Document".

It was exactly the same when I made a trip to prairie Canada. A polite request and a handshake went a long way up there, too.

$20,000 is over 25% of my income before taxes. No way I, or anyone I hunt with could pay that! -Paul
Paul, its was sarcasm, I have permission to hunt about 20 places within 30 miles of my own place, all owned my evil farmers who don't give a rip about habitat. I was merely saying that it isn't evil to farm tillable soil and those although there are many that will rip farmers for farming practices very few would do things differently is they were in there shoes. There is no way I could spend $20k to let land sit idle, the same goes for farmers.

Pals
01-02-2013, 01:26 PM
Dear MNGUNDOG--

I never said they were evil, your words not mine. Nice by the way. You deal with what 10 farmers? Good for you that they have diverse properties and allow hunting. I have dealt with 100's of landowners and farmers in Central Illinois. Ever been to Central Illinois--try the Champaign area and there abouts. Do you have any idea what the average farm size is? Oh well gee...its huge. and Flat. and about as diverse as a table top. Out of those hundreds of folks I've worked with the average landowner/farmer cares about the bottom line. That is their business. I don't fault them at all for that. I'm stating a fact. Bottom line they care about making a profit or they are out of business, so guess what--the majority don't put habitat high on their priority list. There is that nicer? If there was no CRP there would be almost ZIPPO habitat left in this area. The majority would not put in habitat to just do it, not at todays prices. And we've had several guys pulling CRP out of production to capitalize on the prices--how nice is that??!! Besides some wooded draws, we have ditches and creeks. Nice stretch from Rt. 16 north to I-80--one of the most boring drives anywhere and some of the best farm ground in the world. If there was no CRP how many landowners are going to just leave habitat that can be farmed anywhere across the US?

mngundog
01-02-2013, 01:47 PM
Dear MNGUNDOG--

I never said they were evil, your words not mine. Nice by the way. You deal with what 10 farmers? Good for you that they have diverse properties and allow hunting. I have dealt with 100's of landowners and farmers in Central Illinois. Ever been to Central Illinois--try the Champaign area and there abouts. Do you have any idea what the average farm size is? Oh well gee...its huge. and Flat. and about as diverse as a table top. Out of those hundreds of folks I've worked with the average landowner/farmer cares about the bottom line. That is their business. I don't fault them at all for that. I'm stating a fact. Bottom line they care about making a profit or they are out of business, so guess what--the majority don't put habitat high on their priority list. There is that nicer? If there was no CRP there would be almost ZIPPO habitat left in this area. The majority would not put in habitat to just do it, not at todays prices. And we've had several guys pulling CRP out of production to capitalize on the prices-how nice is that??!! Besides some wooded draws, we have ditches and creeks. Nice stretch from Rt. 16 north to I-80--one of the most boring drives anywhere and some of the best farm ground in the world. If there was no CRP how many landowners are going to just leave habitat that can be farmed anywhere across the US?
Now that sounds better, the fact is farmers put tillable land into CRP because it payed essentially what they would have made if it were in production, now that is not the case. So while most farmers in my area care very much for habitat they must pull it out of the program, that land amount to thousands of dollars of lost income. The average hunter who cares dearly for habitat will not put habitat in just to do it, not a todays prices.

Buzz
01-02-2013, 01:53 PM
I recently began to believe that the upland and duck hunting out on the plains will be but a memory in my lifetime. The shelter belts are being torn out and burned. The sloughs are being burned and tiled & drained. The result is a pheasant population that is dropping at an alarming rate. In my area of South Dakota now, if you have a damn nice dog and the energy to walk all day long you might be lucky enough to get a few birds. I recently stepped into a couple of sloughs just before sunset that the birds used to just boil out of by the hundreds. With two good dogs I didn't see a single pheasant flush. Locals who have hunted here for over 40 years tell me that the pheasant population is smaller than they have seen in their lifetimes. Hunters I have talked to have stated that after coming her to hunt for years, they don't plan to come back. Many of my old favorite hunting spots have been pulled from the CRP program and are now used for corn and soybeans. Everywhere I drive, I see huge rolls of black plastic pipe laying about, ready to be dropped into a trench to drain yet another slough. On a recent sunny day, I went out for a drive in the country. In fields where I used to see dozens if not hundreds of birds scratching in the snow for corn, I say perhaps 2 or 3 here, a half dozen there. Here is a NYT story from today's paper.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/01/us/as-pheasants-disappear-hunters-in-iowa-follow.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0&ref=science

It's really sad. As the hunters disappear, so will our dog games. As the hunters disappear, the only one's interested in gun rights will be those who are scared of the criminals and the government.

caryalsobrook
01-02-2013, 02:31 PM
Everybody has their stories of the past. I can remember my father who was born in 1915 talking about when he went to the farm and killed so many ducks that the barrel of his Browning A5 got so hot he would have to let it cool. And the funny part is he said he never heard a shot other than his in the bottom. If there are ducks, shots all around me when I am hunting now. Your best chance to kill a deer is with your car or truck. Never saw an eagle and rarely a hawk when I was a kid and now see hawks all time and ofter a bald eagle. Very few rabbits except on golf courses and people's yards. Qual very few. the cayottes have taken care of that. Come to think of it, I never saw a cayotte when I was young. kill them every chance I get. Wonder when we will have wolves here. No doubt they are coming. Gov. buying up thousands of acres here for habitat, taking the land off the tax rolls. No doubt who will have to pick up the tax deficiency.I wonder how much land is being destroyed by the farmer as opposed to the land taken out by the gov. both fed and state. Oh yess, no hunting or vehicles on it. duck hunting is as good here as it has ever been even though we probably have 50 times as many hunters. No need to mention those hunters who have no respect for either the land or the owner. We all know about them. I do believe they are on the rise though, probably to the increase in those that hunt. Oh I forgot. I never ever saw a turkey in my youth. Now they are eveerywhere. Saw a truck lifted yesterday, covered with mud so much the windows were completely covered except a small part of the windshield. Wonder whose field he had just rutted up.

Plenty of land here of hills and gullies covered with trees and ponds that are worth nothing but hunting. Cost probably about $2000-$3000/acre. Land ideally suited for deer and turkek hunting.

Pals
01-02-2013, 02:47 PM
I recently began to believe that the upland and duck hunting out on the plains will be but a memory in my lifetime. The shelter belts are being torn out and burned. The sloughs are being burned and tiled & drained. The result is a pheasant population that is dropping at an alarming rate. In my area of South Dakota now, if you have a damn nice dog and the energy to walk all day long you might be lucky enough to get a few birds. I recently stepped into a couple of sloughs just before sunset that the birds used to just boil out of by the hundreds. With two good dogs I didn't see a single pheasant flush. Locals who have hunted here for over 40 years tell me that the pheasant population is smaller than they have seen in their lifetimes. Hunters I have talked to have stated that after coming her to hunt for years, they don't plan to come back. Many of my old favorite hunting spots have been pulled from the CRP program and are now used for corn and soybeans. Everywhere I drive, I see huge rolls of black plastic pipe laying about, ready to be dropped into a trench to drain yet another slough. On a recent sunny day, I went out for a drive in the country. In fields where I used to see dozens if not hundreds of birds scratching in the snow for corn, I say perhaps 2 or 3 here, a half dozen there. Here is a NYT story from today's paper.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/01/us/as-pheasants-disappear-hunters-in-iowa-follow.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0&ref=science

It's really sad. As the hunters disappear, so will our dog games. As the hunters disappear, the only one's interested in gun rights will be those who are scared of the criminals and the government.


Really? Draining wetlands for crop production is a huge NO NO. I mean a big one. We can't lay a bit of tile around here without filing a 1026A form(yeah thats really the #) at the FSA office. I'm really kind of surprised by this Buzz.

Buzz
01-02-2013, 03:08 PM
Really? Draining wetlands for crop production is a huge NO NO. I mean a big one. We can't lay a bit of tile around here without filing a 1026A form(yeah thats really the #) at the FSA office. I'm really kind of surprised by this Buzz.


They are burning ALL the sloughs out around here and tiling them out. I'll take a camera with me next time and get pictures for ya.

Pals
01-02-2013, 03:41 PM
Holy crap. What a damn shame.

Marvin S
01-02-2013, 05:17 PM
Really? Draining wetlands for crop production is a huge NO NO. I mean a big one. We can't lay a bit of tile around here without filing a 1026A form(yeah thats really the #) at the FSA office. I'm really kind of surprised by this Buzz.

Nancy - I'm not in your line of work that you obviously know well but do remember the low spot about 100 yards south of the home place. Nearly 40 acres under water every year until Grandpa bought a place to the East of us 160 acres/2,000 total to run a ditch through. The Potholes Drainage Act of 1935/6 paid for the ditch. There was also a quarter just south of that quarter that was unfarmed that Grandpa could have bought for $800 total, which he thought to be too much. The last land sale I heard was $1700 an acre on a quarter section 2 miles from the home place.

For a long time people planted shelterbelts when they saw the moisture retention qualities. I can remember walking through the corn & how it would get shorter the further you got from the shelterbelt. In the days that I grew up there were no safety nets, if you didn't harvest a crop you were SOL, folks seemed to be better stewards of their land. Of course, they did not have the local governments taxing them out of existence in those days either :(. Some things about the old days are worth going back to :).

Marvin S
01-02-2013, 05:31 PM
I recently began to believe that the upland and duck hunting out on the plains will be but a memory in my lifetime. The shelter belts are being torn out and burned. The sloughs are being burned and tiled & drained. The result is a pheasant population that is dropping at an alarming rate. In my area of South Dakota now,

Your area of the state has always been superior farmland - the Sioux river basin - farms selling for 1K per acre in the 40's while the further West you went they would drop to around $100 an acre by Mitchell & much less as you went further west. Your area is also much flatter than much of the rest of the state. I don't get back there often, next time will be for my 65th HS reunion, but will keep an eye out for what you talk about. During the dry years the sloughs were plowed as that was the only place a crop could be raised for livestock feed.

Pals
01-03-2013, 08:14 AM
Nancy - I'm not in your line of work that you obviously know well but do remember the low spot about 100 yards south of the home place. Nearly 40 acres under water every year until Grandpa bought a place to the East of us 160 acres/2,000 total to run a ditch through. The Potholes Drainage Act of 1935/6 paid for the ditch. There was also a quarter just south of that quarter that was unfarmed that Grandpa could have bought for $800 total, which he thought to be too much. The last land sale I heard was $1700 an acre on a quarter section 2 miles from the home place.

For a long time people planted shelterbelts when they saw the moisture retention qualities. I can remember walking through the corn & how it would get shorter the further you got from the shelterbelt. In the days that I grew up there were no safety nets, if you didn't harvest a crop you were SOL, folks seemed to be better stewards of their land. Of course, they did not have the local governments taxing them out of existence in those days either :(. Some things about the old days are worth going back to :).

In many ways stewardship was better, rotations consisted of hay/forage, livestock was abundant and Highly erodible poor soils were used for pasture, farms were smaller and more attention was given to the land. The wetlands--well I have mixed feelings about that--as a landowner I don't want anyone telling me what I can do with my land BUT I also see the result of 100 years of plowing and draining everything we possibly could--in many ways we are like locusts. And that saddens me. There is a middle somewhere, I refer to that as "sustainable conservation" where you take the needs of people, the land and wildlife into consideration. The problem with environmentalists is that they forget the "human" part of that equation, which is not realistic. Private land ownership is a true privledge and it isn't cheap. The face of who is buying land is changing, I have a lot more "city" landowners as opposed to the farmer/rural type landowners. Those city landowners are pretty interesting--they start out with great intentions and then usually bail when the reality of maintaining property sets in--some have more money then sense. Where I live is south of the prairie soils and into timber soils, we had a major run on land from the Urban deer hunters a few years ago. Buying land around here isn't easy, many farms are family owned with long histories and they will stay in the family even as the younger generation moves away from farming. Some landowners really are terrible stewards, some are internet genius's with no clue that planting that nice texas bluestem is not going to work here in Illinois and some are really great landowners. Most fall in the middle, wanting the land to at least pay the taxes(who can blame them??) and hopefully turn a small profit to help with the mortgage--sometimes they put time and money back into the land, mostly they are just trying to hold on to it--so the habitat groups and the Cost share programs that help pay for habitat restoration or fix erosion problems really help them. Then there is the rest of the story........lets leave that there as I'm not free to say what I think about abuses of programs and waste I see daily.