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Gerry Clinchy
01-07-2013, 08:19 PM
Promise kept.
From the NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/business/energy-environment/aep-has-plan-to-close-kentuckys-big-sandy-power-plant.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&ref=earth&adxnnlx=1356022671-R3+V/MQDlWUPchI8GlUJfA&


A total of 55 plants, including Big Sandy, have closed or have announced plans to shut down, according to a count by the Sierra Club. That will leave 395 coal-burning plants in the United States, compared with 522 in 2010, according to the Sierra Club.



In May, the power company withdrew a plan (http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/30/aep-backs-down-on-coal-plant-retrofit/) to spent $1 billion to retrofit Big Sandy so that it could continue to operate. But that would have required a 31 percent increase in electricity rates for eastern Kentucky residents.

On Wednesday, A.E.P. announced that it would close both of the coal-burning furnaces at Big Sandy in 2015, but left open the possibility that one of the units would be retrofitted to use natural gas. Area residents, if the Kentucky Public Service Commission approves the plan, would see an 8 percent increase in their electricity rates — to replace Big Sandy’s production with electricity from West Virginia — much less than the earlier plan.

A double whammy for KY: electricity increases 8% while the economy of the area takes a heavy hit.

Mr. Adkins said the repercussions in eastern Kentucky will last for decades, adding that local hotels, trucking companies, and even schools, would be adversely affected by the shutdown.


Luke Popovich, a spokesman for the National Mining Association (http://www.nma.org/), said that there remained hope that the price of natural gas would rise in the coming year, making coal more competitive. He said surging demand (http://www.iea.org/newsroomandevents/pressreleases/2012/december/name,34441,en.html) in India and China could help replace declining domestic sales.
“We have the most of the fuel — coal — that the rest of world wants the most of,” he said.

So as the US decreases its carbon footprint ... China and India will take up the slack ... and the people in KY will just turn off the lights and turn down the thermostats.

Buzz
01-07-2013, 10:11 PM
Promise kept.
From the NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/business/energy-environment/aep-has-plan-to-close-kentuckys-big-sandy-power-plant.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&ref=earth&adxnnlx=1356022671-R3+V/MQDlWUPchI8GlUJfA&

A double whammy for KY: electricity increases 8% while the economy of the area takes a heavy hit.

So as the US decreases its carbon footprint ... China and India will take up the slack ... and the people in KY will just turn off the lights and turn down the thermostats.

And now for the rest of the story...


http://m.csmonitor.com/Environment/2012/0926/War-on-coal-Why-Obama-might-not-be-industry-s-worst-enemy/(page)/1

caryalsobrook
01-08-2013, 04:55 AM
And now for the rest of the story...


http://m.csmonitor.com/Environment/2012/0926/War-on-coal-Why-Obama-might-not-be-industry-s-worst-enemy/(page)/1

How about the rest of the rest of the story. Competion(natural gas) tends to lower the price. Gov. rules and regulations tend to RAISE the price. "If my policies are implemented, utility prices will necessarily soar." Not the exact words of the President but certainly an accurate paraphrase. One thing conservatives,, he has been successful in implementing his agenda, tax increases, soaring deficit spending and debt, increased gov. rules and regulations, stagnant economy, and income redistribution. he has increased redistribution of income via Obamacare and he intends to redistribute more through cap and trade. His policies of more people riding in the wagon and less pulling it may get him votes but as Margaret Thatcher said, "socialism workd only as long as other peoples' money doesn't run out."

Another thought Buzz, get rid of the wind and solar gov. subsities, tax credits, and loan guarantees(by definition BAD LOANS), wind and solar energy will also suffer the same fate as coal.

road kill
01-08-2013, 05:55 AM
I truly don't understand how such supposedly well read, well educated, critically thinking people can believe this is good for America.

It is truly baffling to me.


BTW---Across the street from "The Supplement Store" I frequent is a new store.
The name of this "store?"

"FREE GOVERNMENT PHONES!!!"

You incremental secular progressives must be proud.....................


(BTW-If you doubt me, say so, I will post a picture of the store:()

charly_t
01-08-2013, 07:48 AM
I truly don't understand how such supposedly well read, well educated, critically thinking people can believe this is good for America.

It is truly baffling to me.


BTW---Across the street from "The Supplement Store" I frequent is a new store.
The name of this "store?"

"FREE GOVERNMENT PHONES!!!"

You incremental secular progressives must be proud.....................


(BTW-If you doubt me, say so, I will post a picture of the store:()

T.V. chan. out of Tulsa Oklahoma runs ads for the free phones often. They must be doing well.

Gerry Clinchy
01-08-2013, 09:09 AM
Buzz, in the original article it mentioned the power company considering converting to NG, but the cost of doing so would have raised electric cost 31%. It was more economical to get the needed power from WV and cause an increase of only 8%. But the fact is it did go up, regardless.

NG is lower now, at least in part due to the newly-abundant supply of NG, a lot of which has to do with fracking. We already know that the administration is going after fracking as being unsafe. I don't know if it is or not, but the fact remains that energy prices are going to go up with additional govt regulation on NG production. We know from previous experience that some govt regulation makes sense, and there is also a lot of it that doesn't make sense.

Meanwhile the WH is sitting on something like 7 permits for building export ports for NG ... which could then make NG as cheap for China and India as the coal ... not to mention that having those ports would have a nice effect on our trade deficits with those countries; not to mention the jobs created for building the ports. If NG is this clean and abundant, why isn't it being pursued more aggressively?


And when the world economy does "recover" will the US have the energy capacity in place to fuel the economic engine? Isn't this kind of thing also "infrastructure" that is so often a topic?

I have to agree with charly that renewable energy is only competitive with coal as long as it is subsidized. I find it difficult to believe that it is truly the big competition for coal. I would agree that NG is a competitor ... at least until regulations on fracking stifle that.

This does NOT mean that I favor NO regulations.

Franco
01-08-2013, 10:12 AM
Buzz, in the original article it mentioned the power company considering converting to NG, but the cost of doing so would have raised electric cost 31%. It was more economical to get the needed power from WV and cause an increase of only 8%. But the fact is it did go up, regardless.

NG is lower now, at least in part due to the newly-abundant supply of NG, a lot of which has to do with fracking. We already know that the administration is going after fracking as being unsafe. I don't know if it is or not, but the fact remains that energy prices are going to go up with additional govt regulation on NG production. We know from previous experience that some govt regulation makes sense, and there is also a lot of it that doesn't make sense.

Meanwhile the WH is sitting on something like 7 permits for building export ports for NG ... which could then make NG as cheap for China and India as the coal ... not to mention that having those ports would have a nice effect on our trade deficits with those countries; not to mention the jobs created for building the ports. If NG is this clean and abundant, why isn't it being pursued more aggressively?


And when the world economy does "recover" will the US have the energy capacity in place to fuel the economic engine? Isn't this kind of thing also "infrastructure" that is so often a topic?

I have to agree with charly that renewable energy is only competitive with coal as long as it is subsidized. I find it difficult to believe that it is truly the big competition for coal. I would agree that NG is a competitor ... at least until regulations on fracking stifle that.

This does NOT mean that I favor NO regulations.

Great question!

Most of the NG producing wells is La and Tex are capped. That's because we do not have the infastructure for getting it to market in the form of CNG. Add that the special interest lobby for coal, corn, wind, solar is the stongest. With our Congress it is not about what is best for the American people, but which lobby can better help them get reelected. The Oil & Gas companies have bigger battles to fight domestically than championing NG. BTW, T Boone Pickens is the leading voice of NG and a big reason for the growth in CNG vehicles and home energy.

P S
The amount of NG avialble from the Gulf Of Mexico makes the reserves in the Dakotas look puney.

duk4me
01-08-2013, 10:16 AM
Great question!

Most of the NG producing wells is La and Tex are capped. That's because we do not have the infastructure for getting it to market in the form of CNG. Add that the special interest lobby for coal, corn, wind, solar is the stongest. With our Congress it is not about what is best for the American people, but which lobby can better help them get reelected. The Oil & Gas companies have bigger battles to fight domestically than championing NG. BTW, T Boone Pickens is the leading voice of NG and a big reason for the growth in CNG vehicles and home energy.

Franco, 'did I read somewhere that they are opening CNG stations in LA?

Franco
01-08-2013, 10:19 AM
Franco, 'did I read somewhere that they are opening CNG stations in LA?

Texas, La and California are the most aggressive states building CNG Filling Stations. Just in my little ol town we have four. Most of the city government and private industry fleets are running on CNG. Honda makes a CNG Civic but they are all being sold in California and the local dealers are having a hard time getting any.

The amount of CNG that we are producing compared to what we could be producing is mind-boggling.

duk4me
01-08-2013, 10:36 AM
It is completly idiotic not using CNG to power our vehicles. We get a discount on our propane in the poultry business due to volume we use. We are currently paying $1.45 per gallon. Think about how much money would stay in consumers pockets if every car was powered by CNG.

Lets see much less poluting and we have enough of it for our childrens great grandchildren to not have to depend on foreign oil. How smart are we?

road kill
01-08-2013, 11:34 AM
It is completly idiotic not using CNG to power our vehicles. We get a discount on our propane in the poultry business due to volume we use. We are currently paying $1.45 per gallon. Think about how much money would stay in consumers pockets if every car was powered by CNG.

Lets see much less poluting and we have enough of it for our childrens great grandchildren to not have to depend on foreign oil. How smart are we?

Follow the $$$$$$

charly_t
01-08-2013, 12:25 PM
................................

I have to agree with charly that renewable energy is only competitive with coal as long as it is subsidized. I find it difficult to believe that it is truly the big competition for coal. I would agree that NG is a competitor ... at least until regulations on fracking stifle that.

......................

That wasn't me, Gerry. Would like to take credit but can't. VBG

Uncle Bill
01-08-2013, 02:58 PM
And if you really want to find out how to save far more oil money, check out the cost of transporting the Canadian oil, as well as the Nodak oil by the lesfts favorite billionaire...the Oracle of Omaha...the Obama facillitator...Mr. Buffet. He's of course funding the environmental loons about all the negative reason to not run a pipeline from the north to the south, and ultimately to some of the refinery regions, at far less cost..as well as danger to the environment via train wrecks and ground spills.

But the lefties have convinced many of the nations fools, paying Buffet's railroads to transport that crude is for some reason safer. GFF?? Especially since we have a bazzillion miles of underground pipelines already moving oil (Alaska) and NG (Kansas/Nebraska, MDU in our area,along with many others in the nation). Wake up people! You are being duped by this oligarchy every day this inept empty suit runs this nation.

huntinman
01-08-2013, 03:37 PM
And if you really want to find out how to save far more oil money, check out the cost of transporting the Canadian oil, as well as the Nodak oil by the lesfts favorite billionaire...the Oracle of Omaha...the Obama facillitator...Mr. Buffet. He's of course funding the environmental loons about all the negative reason to not run a pipeline from the north to the south, and ultimately to some of the refinery regions, at far less cost..as well as danger to the environment via train wrecks and ground spills.

But the lefties have convinced many of the nations fools, paying Buffet's railroads to transport that crude is for some reason safer. GFF?? Especially since we have a bazzillion miles of underground pipelines already moving oil (Alaska) and NG (Kansas/Nebraska, MDU in our area,along with many others in the nation). Wake up people! You are being duped by this oligarchy every day this inept empty suit runs this nation.

This empty suit? 10564

mngundog
01-08-2013, 03:43 PM
As a result of that proposal, the 13-year legislative logjam will be broken. The bill contains all of the essential features of my original proposal and will lead to the achievement of the goals I originally set out. The bill I am signing today will permanently reduce sulfur dioxide emissions by 10 million tons below 1999 levels. It will cut NOx emissions by two million tons from projected year 2020 levels and reduce air toxic emissions by over 75 percent.

The bill will allow the Nation finally to meet air quality standards in every city; and, in total, almost 30 million tons per year of dangerous chemicals and noxious pollutants will be prevented from fouling the air.

The result of this new Act will be that cancer risk, respiratory disease, heart ailments, and reproductive disorders will be reduced; damage to lakes, streams, parks, crops, and forests will greatly be lessened; and visibility will be notably improved. As an added benefit, energy security will on balance be enhanced as utilities and automobiles switch to cleaner burning alternative fuels.

The innovative use of market incentives in the bill represents the turning of a new page in our approach to environmental problems in this country. The acid rain allowance trading program will be the first large-scale regulatory use of market incentives and is already being seen as a model for regulatory reform efforts here and abroad. The acid rain program is based on some simple concepts -- that we should set tough standards, allow freedom of choice in how to meet them, and let the power of markets help us allocate the costs most efficiently.

By employing a system that generates the most environmental protection for every dollar spent, the trading system lays the groundwork for a new era of smarter government regulation; one that is more compatible with economic growth than using only the command and control approaches of the past. Other provisions to increase flexibility include increased opportunities for emissions trading and performance standards for fuel refiners to encourage alternative fuel reformulations. In all, these path-breaking features allow us to implement the legislation in a way that achieves my environmental goals at an acceptable cost. The result will be the dawning of a new era in regulatory policy, one that relies on the market to reconcile the environment and the economy.
How can you not buy into this plan?

TimFenstermacher
01-08-2013, 07:04 PM
It is completly idiotic not using CNG to power our vehicles. We get a discount on our propane in the poultry business due to volume we use. We are currently paying $1.45 per gallon. Think about how much money would stay in consumers pockets if every car was powered by CNG.

Lets see much less poluting and we have enough of it for our childrens great grandchildren to not have to depend on foreign oil. How smart are we?

You want to hear something idiotic. I live in NE Pa. and at this moment I am literally sitting on more energy than my childrens great grandchildren could ever use themselves yet tomorrow and the next day and the next I will go to the gas station and fill up with energy sourced from foreign countries which are filled with people who want to see all Americans dead. Now thats what I call idiotic! I can't even bear to think about it. I gotta get back to the dogs, it's much less stressful :)

HPL
01-08-2013, 09:07 PM
It is completly idiotic not using CNG to power our vehicles. We get a discount on our propane in the poultry business due to volume we use. We are currently paying $1.45 per gallon. Think about how much money would stay in consumers pockets if every car was powered by CNG.

Lets see much less poluting and we have enough of it for our childrens great grandchildren to not have to depend on foreign oil. How smart are we?

How does a gallon of propane compare to a gallon of gasoline as a motor fuel?

I was on a field trip to the Yucatan back in 1977 and on the way we passed through Poza Rica (a big oil producing area) at night and there were whole valleys lit up by gas flares. I was nearly dumbfounded by the fact that they just looked at the NG as a waste product to be burned off. Some of the flares were probably nearly 100 feet tall.

Gerry Clinchy
01-08-2013, 09:55 PM
How can you not buy into this plan?
It looks really good on paper ...

charly_t
01-08-2013, 11:00 PM
.................................................. ........................... I was nearly dumbfounded by the fact that they just looked at the NG as a waste product to be burned off. .............................................

It hasn't been that many years since that was still done in this country. Of course my memory is good for that period in time, vbg. It was a great yard light and it sure killed a lot of bugs ( both good and bad probably ).

mngundog
01-08-2013, 11:31 PM
It looks really good on paper ...

Just on paper? What could you possibly see wrong with it?

caryalsobrook
01-09-2013, 05:57 AM
Just on paper? What could you possibly see wrong with it?

It sort of reminds me of Notre Dame's game plan. Looked good on paper but look where it got them.:rolleyes:

mngundog
01-09-2013, 11:57 AM
It sort of reminds me of Notre Dame's game plan. Looked good on paper but look where it got them.:rolleyes:
I agree, the reference was to the Clean Air Act 1990, (Old man Bush's, not his retarded son), under Bush the Republican's embraced the plan, so did Clinton, then the retard, now with Obama in office clean air is a dumb plan.........

huntinman
01-09-2013, 12:16 PM
I agree, the reference was to the Clean Air Act 1990, (Old man Bush's, not his retarded son), under Bush the Republican's embraced the plan, so did Clinton, then the retard, now with Obama in office clean air is a dumb plan.........

You make yourself look like a total idiot with that kind of talk.

mngundog
01-09-2013, 12:25 PM
You make yourself look like a total idiot with that kind of talk.
That's funny I'm been trying to emulate UB, and I don't recall you ever commenting about his kind of talk. :D

coachmo
01-09-2013, 12:27 PM
mngundog's responses go way beyond "looking" like a total idiot.

Marvin S
01-09-2013, 01:05 PM
mngundog's responses go way beyond "looking" like a total idiot.

It's known as being "Open Minded" which means - the mind is so open that nothing ever stops as it's passing through :).

sick lids
01-09-2013, 10:37 PM
I know an engineer who studies power production and usage and and he said that if we switched to 100% nuclear and re-enriched our spent fuel the cost of the postage to mail us a bill would exceed the cost of the electricity we used! I think we have Nixon to blame for it not being legal to recycle our spent fuel. Any experts on this matter?

road kill
01-10-2013, 05:13 AM
That's funny I'm been trying to emulate UB, and I don't recall you ever commenting about his kind of talk. :D
If you have an issue with UB, you should take it uo with him directly, not PUNISH yourself!

People on both sides have been called out for name calling.