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BrettG
01-08-2013, 06:54 PM
Got my first check for 2013 a week later than I was supposed to because of the tax rate crap and our financial secretary refuses to take a chance on over or under withholding even a penny. I got a raise this year of 3% but actually it ended up being a freckle over 1%. Thanks Obama. And I can't wait to see what I have to look forward to as Pelosi is grinning from ear to ear making the comment that adding revenue wasn't finished.

gmhr1
01-08-2013, 07:33 PM
payroll tax increasing from 4.2% to 6.2 % and obamacare taxes to kick in on top of that. My daughter just lost an extra $100 a month.

paul young
01-08-2013, 09:40 PM
payroll tax increasing from 4.2% to 6.2 % and obamacare taxes to kick in on top of that. My daughter just lost an extra $100 a month.

The payroll tax (social security) should NEVER have been cut in the first place. That program is underfunded even at 6.2%.-Paul

Gerry Clinchy
01-08-2013, 10:59 PM
The payroll tax (social security) should NEVER have been cut in the first place. That program is underfunded even at 6.2%.-Paul
Agree with you, Paul. Seemed like a pretty dumb idea to me. But it did provide some extra goodie for the two years leading up to the Presidential election :-)

On the up side, it brings home again to people just how much they are paying into SS ... and Congress isn't doing anything to "fix" SS.

Jim Danis
01-09-2013, 08:35 AM
The payroll tax (social security) should NEVER have been cut in the first place. That program is underfunded even at 6.2%.-Paul

Definitely should not have been cut in the first place. What would save us more money in the long run would be to open up drilling in Alaska and out west to lower oil prices. Get us back to what gas was costing when Obama took office in 08 and we'd have a lot more in our pockets than what the 2% cut is Social Security taxes gave us.

road kill
01-09-2013, 08:52 AM
To the title;

Who did people honestly think was going to bear the burdon of tax increases???

Are you that naive or just blinded by class hatred??

The "middle class" has, is and always will pay the freight!!


Wealthy folks have tax attorneys they pay more to (in salaries) than the taxes would cost to avoid paying them!!!!!

http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo157/prtyblueyz7661966/hopenosis.gif

Meleagris1
01-09-2013, 09:37 AM
I am an attorney and work with income and estate tax matters frequently. Most of my "wealthy" clients pay absolutely obscene amounts in taxes, and despite popular misconceptions there are no silver bullets. Some can utilize the lower capital gains rates for a portion of their income, but even then the vast majority are paying more far more as a % of their income than the vast majority of the middle class. However, even with lower tax rates the middle class is saddled with a very heavy tax load, since with their levels of income they are working much closer to the margin. I am not for any tax increases without accompanying spending cuts, but in this case I am glad to see FICA go up to its normal rate, since it "feels" like a tax increase to all Americans, even to the 47% who have no skin in the game when it comes to federal income tax. If nothing else it might possibly make people think a little before they blindly support tax increases that don't affect them.

Ken Bora
01-09-2013, 11:25 AM
........On the up side, it brings home again to people just how much they are paying into SS ... and Congress isn't doing anything to "fix" SS.


look at how SS works. How it actualy works. Then look up ponzie scheme. Then ask yourself. Why is the government able to do something they put that Bernie Madeoff guy in jail for?????? And the PURE Waste in SS, I see it every day. UGH!!

road kill
01-09-2013, 12:01 PM
look at how SS works. How it actualy works. Then look up ponzie scheme. Then ask yourself. Why is the government able to do something they put that Bernie Madeoff guy in jail for?????? And the PURE Waste in SS, I see it every day. UGH!!
Simple fix.

No one, I repeat NO ONE who didn't pay in gets Social Security.
It is not a slush account for Democrats to buy votes.

paul young
01-09-2013, 12:09 PM
Simple fix.

No one, I repeat NO ONE who didn't pay in gets Social Security.
It is not a slush account for Democrats to buy votes.


Only the Democrats Stan? Really?????

paul young
01-09-2013, 12:17 PM
look at how SS works. How it actualy works. Then look up ponzie scheme. Then ask yourself. Why is the government able to do something they put that Bernie Madeoff guy in jail for?????? And the PURE Waste in SS, I see it every day. UGH!!


You're a working stiff like me, Ken. Without SS we have 4 options:

-work till we die (not my choice, i don't know about you...)
-manage to save at least $1.75 million before we retire (with SS we need half that much). This is my personal choice as that should be attainable.
-hit lotto
-become "takers" and be a burden to society.-Paul

Golddogs
01-09-2013, 12:28 PM
Definitely should not have been cut in the first place. What would save us more money in the long run would be to open up drilling in Alaska and out west to lower oil prices. Get us back to what gas was costing when Obama took office in 08 and we'd have a lot more in our pockets than what the 2% cut is Social Security taxes gave us.

Just paid $2.89 yesterday less .03 for having a savings card with that operator and being Tuesday, double coupon day for a .20 reduction. $2.66 a gallon. What a treat!

Keystone pipeline needs to get started too.

Looking at Energy Independence Regards

huntinman
01-09-2013, 01:15 PM
Just paid $2.89 yesterday less .03 for having a savings card with that operator and being Tuesday, double coupon day for a .20 reduction. $2.66 a gallon. What a treat!

Keystone pipeline needs to get started too.

Looking at Energy Independence Regards

How far we've come...

Marvin S
01-09-2013, 01:57 PM
The payroll tax (social security) as presently managed, should NEVER have been cut in the first place. That program is underfunded even at 6.2%.-Paul

The program will always be an issue until private accounts with some of an individual's contribution are allowed.


I am an attorney and work with income and estate tax matters frequently. Most of my "wealthy" clients pay absolutely obscene amounts in taxes, and despite popular misconceptions there are no silver bullets. Some can utilize the lower capital gains rates for a portion of their income, but even then the vast majority are paying more far more as a % of their income than the vast majority of the middle class. However, even with lower tax rates the middle class is saddled with a very heavy tax load, since with their levels of income they are working much closer to the margin. I am not for any tax increases without accompanying spending cuts, but in this case I am glad to see FICA go up to its normal rate, since it "feels" like a tax increase to all Americans, even to the 47% who have no skin in the game when it comes to federal income tax. If nothing else it might possibly make people think a little before they blindly support tax increases that don't affect them.

Thanks for contributing. Not everyone who participates here understands taxes ;-). Recently read an article that places taxpayers at more like 87% when SS & FICA are included.


You're a working stiff like me, Ken. Without SS we have 4 options:

-work till we die (not my choice, i don't know about you...)
-manage to save at least $1.75 million before we retire (with SS we need half that much). This is my personal choice as that should be attainable.
-hit lotto
-become "takers" and be a burden to society.-Paul

I believe we all would be classified as working stiffs ;-).

IMO - anyone who retires without a 4 legged stool is not too smart -

SS - not real lucrative but buys beer, goes up a little every year, a portion of which goes to pay for the increase in medicare charges.

Job retirement - mine has never gone up since retirement (while I can think that would be nice, I can also see the company's side - a lot of money into someone whose lived too long :).) But did invest the 401K & have gotten a decent return on that. One only need recognize that any one bad model could bankrupt the company I worked for - while I don't think that to be the case having watched the process for years, it is still a possibility.

Fixed Income - we have been in a ZIRP environment for so long that that well has dried up. High rate bonds have been called or matured & CD's that pay anything are just not there. So right now the stool has 3 legs.

Investing - Most on this forum know I invest & encourage everyone with the right temperament to do so. This is the time of year that I tally the score & will tell you that being in the market is the only way to deal with inflation, which is inevitable. To discuss FI & Investing we need a separate thread as it is a serious subject & could be beneficial to those who will probably be leftout in the SS reconfiguration, other than getting to pay & receiving little in return :( .

HPL
01-09-2013, 02:54 PM
To the title;

Who did people honestly think was going to bear the burdon of tax increases???

Are you that naive or just blinded by class hatred??

The "middle class" has, is and always will pay the freight!!


Wealthy folks have tax attorneys they pay more to (in salaries) than the taxes would cost to avoid paying them!!!!!

http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo157/prtyblueyz7661966/hopenosis.gif


Haven't I read multiple times over the last few months that in actuality, it is the top 10% or so of the population that pays the greatest portion of income taxes, thus making the wealthy the ones really carrying the burden for the rest of us?

Buzz
01-09-2013, 03:33 PM
look at how SS works. How it actualy works. Then look up ponzie scheme. Then ask yourself. Why is the government able to do something they put that Bernie Madeoff guy in jail for?????? And the PURE Waste in SS, I see it every day. UGH!!


I would like to hear more about the waste you see in SS every day.

SS isn't so much the problem as medicare, and medicare is the problem it is because inflation if healthcare costs is so much higher than over-all inflation. I realize that conservatives like to deny this... No matter what we do, if healthcare costs keep rising at the current rate, it will eventually break us.

I'm sure none here will be surprised to hear that I was against lowering payroll taxes and I'm happy to see them going back up. Yup, blame it on Obama.

Marvin S
01-09-2013, 04:05 PM
I would like to hear more about the waste you see in SS every day.

SS isn't so much the problem as medicare, and medicare is the problem it is because inflation if healthcare costs is so much higher than over-all inflation. I realize that conservatives like to deny this... No matter what we do, if healthcare costs keep rising at the current rate, it will eventually break us.

I'm sure none here will be surprised to hear that I was against lowering payroll taxes and I'm happy to see them going back up. Yup, blame it on Obama.

Links, please!!!!!!!!!

road kill
01-09-2013, 04:39 PM
I would like to hear more about the waste you see in SS every day.

SS isn't so much the problem as medicare, and medicare is the problem it is because inflation if healthcare costs is so much higher than over-all inflation. I realize that conservatives like to deny this... No matter what we do, if healthcare costs keep rising at the current rate, it will eventually break us.

I'm sure none here will be surprised to hear that I was against lowering payroll taxes and I'm happy to see them going back up. Yup, blame it on Obama.

So, who and what are responsible for the current insane increase daily for health care???

Buzz
01-09-2013, 04:58 PM
So, who and what are responsible for the current insane increase daily for health care???


Are you saying that it is a new problem?


http://www.aei-ideas.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/health1.jpg

caryalsobrook
01-09-2013, 06:17 PM
Are you saying that it is a new problem?


http://www.aei-ideas.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/health1.jpg

Yes, just as new as the gov. running healthcare. If you would take a look at the explosion in medicare and ESPECIALLY IN MEDICAID, which has unliminted care and pays NOTHING. Whether you will admit it or not, THE GOV. CAUSED THE PROBLEM and now you expect the gov. to fix it. Dentistry has had the least involvement with the gov. than any of the other healthcare professions AND HAS HAD THE LEAST INFLATION of all. Dentistry has almost no participation in medicare(limited oral surgery) and none in the rest. For years virtually no dentists would participate in madicaid. Healthcare, energy, banking, education, all segments of the economy each growing at a greater rate than GDP, and all highly regulated by the gov. I wonder why liberals ignore this?

Golddogs
01-09-2013, 06:58 PM
Yes, just as new as the gov. running healthcare. If you would take a look at the explosion in medicare and ESPECIALLY IN MEDICAID, which has unliminted care and pays NOTHING. Whether you will admit it or not, THE GOV. CAUSED THE PROBLEM and now you expect the gov. to fix it. Dentistry has had the least involvement with the gov. than any of the other healthcare professions AND HAS HAD THE LEAST INFLATION of all. Dentistry has almost no participation in medicare(limited oral surgery) and none in the rest. For years virtually no dentists would participate in madicaid. Healthcare, energy, banking, education, all segments of the economy each growing at a greater rate than GDP, and all highly regulated by the gov. I wonder why liberals ignore this?

And has not really changed in it's method of care and delivery of care either. Dentestry has, and always will be a very primitive means of health care, simply by the limits of it's ability to do anything other than what it has done for a hundred years. Products ahve improved and the way they drill, clean and fill has of course improved. But it is still a filling or crown or bridge. It is not in the same league as medicine. No open heart,brain operations, MRI's, Trauma.

Not putting down dentists, but you cannot compare it and related costs to medicine. Just can't do it.

caryalsobrook
01-09-2013, 07:42 PM
And has not really changed in it's method of care and delivery of care either. Dentestry has, and always will be a very primitive means of health care, simply by the limits of it's ability to do anything other than what it has done for a hundred years. Products ahve improved and the way they drill, clean and fill has of course improved. But it is still a filling or crown or bridge. It is not in the same league as medicine. No open heart,brain operations, MRI's, Trauma.

Not putting down dentists, but you cannot compare it and related costs to medicine. Just can't do it.

I certainly take no offense. But let me educate you on just a few advancements in dentistry. Ridge reconsruction, due to periodontal disease or some injury, implants that re too numeros to name, root canals using optics that can see into the canal to determine the shape and curvature. Mandibular resection to correct mandibular prognathisism, maxillary expansion, maxilofacial reconstruction to correct genetic anomolies. There are many practices where fillings, crowns and bridges are but a small part of their work.

If you went to a dental equipment and supply house today, half of the equipment I bought 35 years ago would not even exist today or would be significantly improved, and the other half would be equipment that did not exist then. Materials, equipment have seenmajor advances and as a result procedures that were nonexistant 35 years ago, exist today. If you have not had a need for any of these advancements, then you should consider yourself lucky. Your description of dentistry as primitive reminds me of a patient who once came in and made the statement, "why should I get my teeth fixed, I will lose them someday." My response to him was "why have coronary bypass surgery, you are going to die someday."

If dentistry is "primitive today", then I don't know what I was 35 years ago but it sure wasn't anything like a dentist today.

road kill
01-09-2013, 07:46 PM
Are you saying that it is a new problem?


http://www.aei-ideas.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/health1.jpg
No Buzz, I did not say that.

I asked "So, who and what are responsible for the current insane increase daily for health care???"

Your chart ends a tad early.
NOTHING has been done to curb the problem, it is exponentially spiralling out of control, not getting better.

caryalsobrook
01-09-2013, 08:21 PM
Golddogs, go back and take a look aat the graph that Buzz posted. Medicare and medicaid began in 1965, 43 years ago. Healthcare growth as a peercentage of GDP coincides almost exactly with the introduction of medicare and medicaid. Let Buzz take his graph back another 43 years ago and you will see nothing like the problem we have today. No matter how you want to spin it, before medicare and medicaid, healthcare was market based and after medicare and medicaid, healthcare has been gov. controlled. In 1965 dentistry wanted no part of medicare and the gov. really had no way to force it to do so. That was not the case with physicians. Hospital reles and regulations was a lever that essentially forced them to participate. In retrospect, I suspect that they wished they had said "hell no we won't go!" Had they done so, we would be better off today.

Ken Bora
01-09-2013, 10:13 PM
I would like to hear more about the waste you see in SS every day.

.
I work next to the social security building in Burlington Vermont. I can look out of the kitchen window and look out upon the parking lot of the building.
What I have seen and know.
1- Every summer the parking lot get re-paved. Now one block to the east is the federal court house and across the street is the Vermont district court house and the department of employment and training (welfare office). These other Government buildings get repaved every five years or more and patched as needed. We do get frost damage and all. But Social Security gets repaved every summer.
2- The roof is flat. My Boss remembers when they built the building in 65. Everyone comment at the time but it was a federal design. It is Vermont. We get snow. The flat roof gets re tarred and graveled every spring. The other aforementioned buildings I have never seen anyone on. I have had my view since 1982 and my Boss since 1943. Building management of this building alone is thousands and thousands of unneeded dollars. And it is just one of how many?
3- Leonard Samuel Delmont, Actually a very nice guy. From Rockaway Park NYC. Came to Vermont sent by his Mother to live with relations so he would not get in trouble in the big city. He was a dish washer for us for quite a few years. Even then in his early 20's he was severely over weight. After a while, somehow. He was deemed eligible for ssi. He came in and gave his notice and was so happy. My boss was stunned. Levon, (that was the name he went by) called it his fat check. Said he would never have to work again. ssi gave him a check, and still does, for being fat. Well, not having to work anymore, the only exercise he ever got. He got so much huger. Then the government gave him one of those hover round chairs. He rolled over and showed us. He is so proud. Well not having to walk to the liqueur store!! It is a death sentence for sure. Last time he rolled over he was so big. I felt and feel so bad for him. You and I, Our own government agency is making it possible for this nice guy to kill himself. And we are paying for it.
4- The Blind guy. One day a few years ago My Boss called me to the window saying check this out. A very well dressed middle age man had parked his car in the SS lot and was unfolding a fold up red tip blind person cane. He then put on dark glasses and walked into the building. About 20 minutes later we saw him walk out and get back in his car and drive away. So we asked Mary Ann, one of the girls in the office because we feed them lunch at least once a week and she said she could not comment on individual cases under possible reprimand or something. But we saw a blind guy drive to ssi and walk in!
5 - Homeland Security. Here in humble Burlington. Terror threat zero. Federal court house or even two Senators offices in walking range and are they patrolling those? Nope. But they roll like Jack Bauer in the black SUV's if you dare use the empty lot we all pay for after hours or on the weekend.
And this is just one observation of one building by one person.
this ponzie scheme waists money like there is no tomorrow
I could keep going on these personal observations but my glass is empty

charly_t
01-09-2013, 10:37 PM
I work next to the social security building in Burlington Vermont. I can look out of the kitchen window and look out upon the parking lot of the building.
What I have seen and know.
1- Every summer the parking lot get re-paved. Now one block to the east is the federal court house and across the street is the Vermont district court house and the department of employment and training (welfare office). These other Government buildings get repaved every five years or more and patched as needed. We do get frost damage and all. But Social Security gets repaved every summer.
2- The roof is flat. My Boss remembers when they built the building in 65. Everyone comment at the time but it was a federal design. It is Vermont. We get snow. The flat roof gets re tarred and graveled every spring. The other aforementioned buildings I have never seen anyone on. I have had my view since 1982 and my Boss since 1943. Building management of this building alone is thousands and thousands of unneeded dollars. And it is just one of how many?
3- Leonard Samuel Delmont, Actually a very nice guy. From Rockaway Park NYC. Came to Vermont sent by his Mother to live with relations so he would not get in trouble in the big city. He was a dish washer for us for quite a few years. Even then in his early 20's he was severely over weight. After a while, somehow. He was deemed eligible for ssi. He came in and gave his notice and was so happy. My boss was stunned. Levon, (that was the name he went by) called it his fat check. Said he would never have to work again. ssi gave him a check, and still does, for being fat. Well, not having to work anymore, the only exercise he ever got. He got so much huger. Then the government gave him one of those hover round chairs. He rolled over and showed us. He is so proud. Well not having to walk to the liqueur store!! It is a death sentence for sure. Last time he rolled over he was so big. I felt and feel so bad for him. You and I, Our own government agency is making it possible for this nice guy to kill himself. And we are paying for it.
4- The Blind guy. One day a few years ago My Boss called me to the window saying check this out. A very well dressed middle age man had parked his car in the SS lot and was unfolding a fold up red tip blind person cane. He then put on dark glasses and walked into the building. About 20 minutes later we saw him walk out and get back in his car and drive away. So we asked Mary Ann, one of the girls in the office because we feed them lunch at least once a week and she said she could not comment on individual cases under possible reprimand or something. But we saw a blind guy drive to ssi and walk in!
5 - Homeland Security. Here in humble Burlington. Terror threat zero. Federal court house or even two Senators offices in walking range and are they patrolling those? Nope. But they roll like Jack Bauer in the black SUV's if you dare use the empty lot we all pay for after hours or on the weekend.
And this is just one observation of one building by one person.
this ponzie scheme waists money like there is no tomorrow
I could keep going on these personal observations but my glass is empty


Some years back I knew a lady who got a check because she was overweight. Some years later I took some classes on dementias etc. in older people. I got a chance to ask one of the instructors about the overweight lady drawing SSI. He said yes, it was what some people were drawing SSI for. Another thing used to be that drug addiction was cause for an SSI check. I don't know if drug addiction is still cause for getting an SSI check or not.............it should not be !

M&K's Retrievers
01-09-2013, 10:39 PM
I work next to the social security building in Burlington Vermont. I can look out of the kitchen window and look out upon the parking lot of the building.
What I have seen and know.
1- Every summer the parking lot get re-paved. Now one block to the east is the federal court house and across the street is the Vermont district court house and the department of employment and training (welfare office). These other Government buildings get repaved every five years or more and patched as needed. We do get frost damage and all. But Social Security gets repaved every summer.
2- The roof is flat. My Boss remembers when they built the building in 65. Everyone comment at the time but it was a federal design. It is Vermont. We get snow. The flat roof gets re tarred and graveled every spring. The other aforementioned buildings I have never seen anyone on. I have had my view since 1982 and my Boss since 1943. Building management of this building alone is thousands and thousands of unneeded dollars. And it is just one of how many?
3- Leonard Samuel Delmont, Actually a very nice guy. From Rockaway Park NYC. Came to Vermont sent by his Mother to live with relations so he would not get in trouble in the big city. He was a dish washer for us for quite a few years. Even then in his early 20's he was severely over weight. After a while, somehow. He was deemed eligible for ssi. He came in and gave his notice and was so happy. My boss was stunned. Levon, (that was the name he went by) called it his fat check. Said he would never have to work again. ssi gave him a check, and still does, for being fat. Well, not having to work anymore, the only exercise he ever got. He got so much huger. Then the government gave him one of those hover round chairs. He rolled over and showed us. He is so proud. Well not having to walk to the liqueur store!! It is a death sentence for sure. Last time he rolled over he was so big. I felt and feel so bad for him. You and I, Our own government agency is making it possible for this nice guy to kill himself. And we are paying for it.
4- The Blind guy. One day a few years ago My Boss called me to the window saying check this out. A very well dressed middle age man had parked his car in the SS lot and was unfolding a fold up red tip blind person cane. He then put on dark glasses and walked into the building. About 20 minutes later we saw him walk out and get back in his car and drive away. So we asked Mary Ann, one of the girls in the office because we feed them lunch at least once a week and she said she could not comment on individual cases under possible reprimand or something. But we saw a blind guy drive to ssi and walk in!
5 - Homeland Security. Here in humble Burlington. Terror threat zero. Federal court house or even two Senators offices in walking range and are they patrolling those? Nope. But they roll like Jack Bauer in the black SUV's if you dare use the empty lot we all pay for after hours or on the weekend.
And this is just one observation of one building by one person.
this ponzie scheme waists money like there is no tomorrow
I could keep going on these personal observations but my glass is empty


Ken, have your observations been Swooped, Swoped, Stooped (Bob?) whatever??

Golddogs
01-10-2013, 10:31 AM
Golddogs, go back and take a look aat the graph that Buzz posted. Medicare and medicaid began in 1965, 43 years ago. Healthcare growth as a peercentage of GDP coincides almost exactly with the introduction of medicare and medicaid. Let Buzz take his graph back another 43 years ago and you will see nothing like the problem we have today. No matter how you want to spin it, before medicare and medicaid, healthcare was market based and after medicare and medicaid, healthcare has been gov. controlled. In 1965 dentistry wanted no part of medicare and the gov. really had no way to force it to do so. That was not the case with physicians. Hospital reles and regulations was a lever that essentially forced them to participate. In retrospect, I suspect that they wished they had said "hell no we won't go!" Had they done so, we would be better off today.

No spin intended at all. And I agree, and said as much regarding the way we fix teeth. But the cost of doing so is no where near the costs of equipment or employees or costs to run clinics and hospitals and malpractice insurance to cover teh blood sucking lawyers and lawsuits, nor are as many patients needing proceedures costing tens of thousands of dollars. Dentisry is affordable because it is, for the most part, quite simple in it's application.

I do not include what the reconstructive and oral surgeons do in that opiniion. I look at the cost of a filling or bridge from 15 years ago, and it is still a bargain and with advances in materials, not much more expensive( Unles you go for the gold grill work ) and acording to my Dentist, who I absolutely think is the best , much longer lasting. I am not trying to argue that health costs are not out of control, but the 2 are hard for me to compare. Just the cost of equipment and ways of delivery of care skews the comparison. I also think the industry has done a beter job controling costs itself ( dentestry ). And in dating myself, while medical insurance has been common for ever ( I can only go 50 years back ) Dental insurance has become more common in only the past few decades. So mabe that is a factor in cost control ? Could the insurance companies played a big role in the ever escalting costs?



And for what it's worth, I miss the old spit sinks.

caryalsobrook
01-10-2013, 11:20 AM
No spin intended at all. And I agree, and said as much regarding the way we fix teeth. But the cost of doing so is no where near the costs of equipment or employees or costs to run clinics and hospitals and malpractice insurance to cover teh blood sucking lawyers and lawsuits, nor are as many patients needing proceedures costing tens of thousands of dollars. Dentisry is affordable because it is, for the most part, quite simple in it's application.

I do not include what the reconstructive and oral surgeons do in that opiniion. I look at the cost of a filling or bridge from 15 years ago, and it is still a bargain and with advances in materials, not much more expensive( Unles you go for the gold grill work ) and acording to my Dentist, who I absolutely think is the best , much longer lasting. I am not trying to argue that health costs are not out of control, but the 2 are hard for me to compare. Just the cost of equipment and ways of delivery of care skews the comparison. I also think the industry has done a beter job controling costs itself ( dentestry ). And in dating myself, while medical insurance has been common for ever ( I can only go 50 years back ) Dental insurance has become more common in only the past few decades. So mabe that is a factor in cost control ? Could the insurance companies played a big role in the ever escalting costs?



And for what it's worth, I miss the old spit sinks.As I said, I took no offense. I just wanted to correct your impresson that that had been little change in dentistry as opposed to medical. The fact is that many of the advancements in medical have been incoroported into dentistry. As to oral surgery, you do see the advancements but I assure you there have also been in advancements not only in other areas I cited but also in fillings, crowns and bridges. Advancements in efficiency, materials and preparation of teeth. These are things you probably can't see.

As to insurance companies, my experience was that I did not allow them to influence my practice to any extent. Dentist as a whole are very independent and value that independence and maybe that is the reason for the way that the profession has been so stable. Yes the insurance companies have tried to exert more control but overall they have been unsuccessful. As to malpractics, I suspect that premiums have gone up percentagewise as much as physicians as a whole.

I refer you to Buzz'z chart showing the increase in the cost of healthcare as a % of GDP, It corresponds almost EXACTLY with the creation of medicare and medicaid. Something those in favor of nationalizing healthcare conviently overlook.

Jason Glavich
01-10-2013, 12:55 PM
Fixed Income - we have been in a ZIRP environment for so long that that well has dried up. High rate bonds have been called or matured & CD's that pay anything are just not there. So right now the stool has 3 legs.

.

Milking stools are pretty stable with 3 legs...j/k

Marvin S
01-10-2013, 05:12 PM
Milking stools are pretty stable with 3 legs...j/k

Ours were one legged ;), worked my way through my last two years of HS milking cows. There is nothing like putting your head in the flank of a milk cow on a cold wintery morning to make one realize that's what life is about.

But that's not how I want our income sourced!!!

road kill
01-10-2013, 05:15 PM
Ours were one legged ;), worked my way through my last two years of HS milking cows. There is nothing like putting your head in the flank of a milk cow on a cold wintery morning to make one realize that's what life is about.

But that's not how I want our income sourced!!!
Or a fresh class and a warm biscuit!!!!!

starjack
01-10-2013, 05:44 PM
Milking stools are pretty stable with 3 legs...j/kMilking cows sure wish i could go back to them days.

huntinman
01-10-2013, 05:47 PM
Or a fresh class and a warm biscuit!!!!!

your teacher let you eat in class?

Buzz
01-10-2013, 06:18 PM
As I said, I took no offense. I just wanted to correct your impresson that that had been little change in dentistry as opposed to medical. The fact is that many of the advancements in medical have been incoroported into dentistry. As to oral surgery, you do see the advancements but I assure you there have also been in advancements not only in other areas I cited but also in fillings, crowns and bridges. Advancements in efficiency, materials and preparation of teeth. These are things you probably can't see.

As to insurance companies, my experience was that I did not allow them to influence my practice to any extent. Dentist as a whole are very independent and value that independence and maybe that is the reason for the way that the profession has been so stable. Yes the insurance companies have tried to exert more control but overall they have been unsuccessful. As to malpractics, I suspect that premiums have gone up percentagewise as much as physicians as a whole.

I refer you to Buzz'z chart showing the increase in the cost of healthcare as a % of GDP, It corresponds almost EXACTLY with the creation of medicare and medicaid. Something those in favor of nationalizing healthcare conviently overlook.


My experience with dentistry indicates vast advancement since the days when I got amalgam fillings as a kid. Twenty five years ago I had a root canal. Ten years ago that crown came loose and the post pushed through the root on my tooth. At one time the only option would have been extraction. I was able to go to an oral surgeon how went through my jaw bone, drilled the root, filled it and replaced the post. Then my dentist was able to put on a new crown. The surgeon stated that he couldn't guarantee the fix for 40 years, but noted that he couldn't guarantee anything for that time. He said that the material he used to fill the tooth was relatively new and bio friendly, meaning that my body would not likely reject and that the bone would likely grow back in. Subsequent x-rays have shown that indeed it has.

This fall I bit into a sausage and cracked a tooth on a piece of bone. Tuesday this week I had my appointment to have a crown installed to make the repair. The dentist now has a machine that he can image my teeth. The machine then makes 3-D models of the teeth and from a block of porcelain he mills out a crown while I wait. In 1 1/2 hours I walked out with a new crown that fit perfectly. No temporary and no waiting for a crown on a metal base to come from the lab. No biting into molds. It is amazing. Ten years ago I paid $800 for my crown. The whole process took 1 1/2 weeks. Tuesday I paid $940 for a better crown that I walked out with, same day.

road kill
01-10-2013, 06:53 PM
your teacher let you eat in class?

It's worse than you think, I was trying to spell cup!!!!:-x

huntinman
01-10-2013, 07:00 PM
It's worse than you think, I was trying to spell cup!!!!:-x

You on an iPad? I hate the auto spell

caryalsobrook
01-10-2013, 07:39 PM
My experience with dentistry indicates vast advancement since the days when I got amalgam fillings as a kid. Twenty five years ago I had a root canal. Ten years ago that crown came loose and the post pushed through the root on my tooth. At one time the only option would have been extraction. I was able to go to an oral surgeon how went through my jaw bone, drilled the root, filled it and replaced the post. Then my dentist was able to put on a new crown. The surgeon stated that he couldn't guarantee the fix for 40 years, but noted that he couldn't guarantee anything for that time. He said that the material he used to fill the tooth was relatively new and bio friendly, meaning that my body would not likely reject and that the bone would likely grow back in. Subsequent x-rays have shown that indeed it has.

This fall I bit into a sausage and cracked a tooth on a piece of bone. Tuesday this week I had my appointment to have a crown installed to make the repair. The dentist now has a machine that he can image my teeth. The machine then makes 3-D models of the teeth and from a block of porcelain he mills out a crown while I wait. In 1 1/2 hours I walked out with a new crown that fit perfectly. No temporary and no waiting for a crown on a metal base to come from the lab. No biting into molds. It is amazing. Ten years ago I paid $800 for my crown. The whole process took 1 1/2 weeks. Tuesday I paid $940 for a better crown that I walked out with, same day.
Really glad you had a good experience. when I retired I wasn't quite satisfied with the imaging and milling process, but was sure they would eventually get the bugs out. That milling machine cost about $120,000 when I retired. Don't know what it cost today. By the way, preparing the tooth using that technique requires a much higher proficiency in peparation than it does when I was in practice. Today it would require a lot of changes by me to do such a crown and a lot of time to be comfortable with the technique. Chalenges like that make me miss working.:D

huntinman
01-10-2013, 07:54 PM
Really glad you had a good experience. when I retired I wasn't quite satisfied with the imaging and milling process, but was sure they would eventually get the bugs out. That milling machine cost about $120,000 when I retired. Don't know what it cost today. By the way, preparing the tooth using that technique requires a much higher proficiency in peparation than it does when I was in practice. Today it would require a lot of changes by me to do such a crown and a lot of time to be comfortable with the technique. Chalenges like that make me miss working.:D

Yeah, but then you would be spending less time in the duck blind and chasing the the dogs...

caryalsobrook
01-11-2013, 07:37 AM
Yeah, but then you would be spending less time in the duck blind and chasing the the dogs...

Thought about trying to work part time but then I couldn't take off for months with my dogs like now. I can't wait to see your new pup, with no politics AND JUST DOGS:D

huntinman
01-11-2013, 08:26 AM
Thought about trying to work part time but then I couldn't take off for months with my dogs like now. I can't wait to see your new pup, with no politics AND JUST DOGS:D

Amen on that one...