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Marvin S
02-14-2013, 11:32 AM
Why is the government at any level involved in minimum wage legislation? The Feds have it, States have it, SanFran has it - IMO it is restraint of trade, & should not happen. What say the unionista's?

huntinman
02-14-2013, 02:25 PM
It that a trick question?

BonMallari
02-14-2013, 02:55 PM
as for someone (maybe the only one here) that has an hourly wage (even though I rarely see a paycheck) a rise in the minimum wage would be the worst thing to happen to me and my industry....It will do more harm to the restaurant and tourism industry than you could imagine, jobs will be lost or eliminated, the costs will be passed along to the consumer

road kill
02-14-2013, 03:00 PM
as for someone (maybe the only one here) that has an hourly wage (even though I rarely see a paycheck) a rise in the minimum wage would be the worst thing to happen to me and my industry....It will do more harm to the restaurant and tourism industry than you could imagine, jobs will be lost or eliminated, the costs will be passed along to the consumer
I don't get paid unless I make something happen.
I hate to see anyone lose a job.

huntinman
02-14-2013, 03:05 PM
I don't get paid unless I make something happen.
I hate to see anyone lose a job.

Same here.

road kill
02-14-2013, 03:10 PM
Same here.
"Nothing happens until the sale is made!"

sick lids
02-14-2013, 03:19 PM
If I screw up a bid, or make a mistake on a job I could be wishing I made minimum wage.

HPL
02-14-2013, 04:17 PM
I don't get paid unless I make something happen.
I hate to see anyone lose a job.

Same here, but except for the tax and entitlement ramifications, there are a few who I wouldn't mind seeing lose their jobs, and big cohort that I would really like to see have to at least change jobs (can you guess).

Schmersal
02-14-2013, 04:36 PM
Easy! The government had to do something to make the working class people believe that they were doing something good for them, when in reality they were setting up a system that allows the profiteers to allow wages to grow at a much slower pace than the cost of living. In turn making the working class more dependent on the low wages the profiteers were willing to pay. " a government could not at the same time serve both the profiteers and the victims of the profiteers " a quote from Rose Pastor Stokes. Why does a person that works for a minimal wage not deserve a raise to help cope with the high cost of fuel, groceries, education, and medical care. There are good people in bad situations trying to rise above their current place in society so why not help, after all they could be on welfare!

starjack
02-14-2013, 04:36 PM
Just another way to keep dumbing down. People will get use to that wage and not want to better them self. IMO

HPL
02-14-2013, 04:47 PM
Easy! The government had to do something to make the working class people believe that they were doing something good for them, when in reality they were setting up a system that allows the profiteers to allow wages to grow at a much slower pace than the cost of living. In turn making the working class more dependent on the low wages the profiteers were willing to pay. " a government could not at the same time serve both the profiteers and the victims of the profiteers " a quote from Rose Pastor Stokes. Why does a person that works for a minimal wage not deserve a raise to help cope with the high cost of fuel, groceries, education, and medical care. There are good people in bad situations trying to rise above their current place in society so why not help, after all they could be on welfare!

I can't tell which side of the issue you are on. Are you a lawyer, politician, or both?

Schmersal
02-14-2013, 05:09 PM
I can't tell which side of the issue you are on. Are you a lawyer, politician, or both?
Neither, and I'm not sure what side I'm on either!;-) I just think there are some people in this country that actually try to survive on the minimum wage and not live off the government and they could use the help, as for trying to separate those people from the ones who don't try to improve their lot and want to live off the government I'll have to get back to you on that one.

Uncle Bill
02-14-2013, 05:24 PM
That's why Obama continues to have a following...his dumbed down electorate is 'satisfied' with their various pay scales, be it minimum wages, or unemployment, or staying on welfare and getting those food stamps. As long as he can force the congress to keep extending those unemployment checks to keep that crowd from getting riled up, he's posting good numbers. But as more of the producers "Shrugg" and leave, he will run out of the other peoples money.

UB

Marvin S
02-16-2013, 09:27 PM
as for someone (maybe the only one here) that has an hourly wage (even though I rarely see a paycheck) a rise in the minimum wage would be the worst thing to happen to me and my industry....It will do more harm to the restaurant and tourism industry than you could imagine, jobs will be lost or eliminated, the costs will be passed along to the consumer

Bon, I'm reading in Wired that there are now robots that work as food servers - any in your area? That should make the union folks happy :).


It that a trick question?

I didn't think it was - but judging by some of the answers maybe it was :).

I was really trying to get a discussion going - this is a union issue - they want the Mini wage to provide a floor to work from & want no kids working as some might get some needed job skills.

Here's what I see from listening to my sons who are businessmen. The one with a construction company finds that he needs to be very careful in his dealings with a labor faker as they can go to L & I and languish to their life's content on his nickel. He pays more than mini wage but doesn't seem to matter to those folks. He says the best thing he can do is run out of jobs, not hard to do in this economy, & put them on unemployment.

The other one had a guy with a MA in History that could not even run a lawn mower but would not sign on unless he got more than Mini wage. The guy spent more time on his cell than he did working so was an easy fire.

I guess I have a real problem with folks who have never signed the front of a paycheck determining labor rates of any kind. The nation is creating a large group of folks who are convinced that they are entitled.

But it get's worse, I offer this quote from CATO's letter about BA degrees:


But for the vast majority of undergraduate colleges & universities, you don't know if the person can even write a coherent sentence. You certainly know nothing about whether they have been taught to think rigorously. In short, you know nothing about the kinds of skills that they bring to the job - skills that you could've assumed were there some years before.

Where I worked they would only hire those engineers in the top 25% of their class - when I look back on that, knowing there were some that were still counseled out. How bad are the other 75%?

Schmersal
02-16-2013, 10:51 PM
Marvin I work for a skilled trade union in the construction industry and I gave you an answer from a union point of view, and as far as some of your quotes go here is my point of view.
1) the local that I work for is not against kids ( I am assuming 16 years of age) getting working experience they actually have a by law allowing contractors to hire them for summer help if certain requirements are met. And I answered why the minimum wage should be raised.
2) as for our contractors we also have a by law that allows a contractor to lay off an employee without the chance of rehire (so basically if you don't work for the contractors you don't work) and word gets around that employee A does not do his job and those employees are passed over on the books.
3) you have an issue with people who have never signed the front of a check determining the wages, I have a problem with people expecting PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO WORK to support a family on 7$ an hour and when they can't, needing assistance. If the minimum wage was higher those people may not need federal assistance.
4) as far as entitlements go according to our contract we get no payed vacations and no payed holidays and I'm fine with that if I don't work why should I get paid! I do have a great retirement program and so-so insurance due to giving back so the contractors and the union could keep costs down. Also the contractor that I work for pays us more than our contract says he has to because we are highly skilled,very efficient, and work hard to make him money because if he doesn't make money we don't make money. Just this summer he gave all of his employees the 4 days after Labor Day off because we had worked all summer without taking time off to keep all of our jobs on schedule.


Now I am not blind to the fact that there are people in every walk of life that are all about a free ride, but there are just as many non union free loaders as there are union free loaders. Our union has worked hard to protect our contractors as well as our members, I feel we have a great working relationship and understand that if the contractors don't survive we don't survive. I am a journeyman and a state licensed contractor in my field.

huntinman
02-16-2013, 11:12 PM
Most minimum wage jobs are entry level such as kids in their first jobs... Fast food, retail, go-fer type jobs. Or older folks working to supplement retirement income. Most people are not "supporting families" on minimum wages. That is classic dem propaganda. If an employee proves themselves any value at all, most employers will pay them more just to keep them.

Schmersal
02-17-2013, 07:46 AM
Most minimum wage jobs are entry level such as kids in their first jobs... Fast food, retail, go-fer type jobs. Or older folks working to supplement retirement income. Most people are not "supporting families" on minimum wages. That is classic dem propaganda. If an employee proves themselves any value at all, most employers will pay them more just to keep them.

In this area there are a large number of adults with families working retail, fast food, and go-fer type jobs, that's why kids looking for their entry level jobs are having a hard time finding one. Lets face it minimum wage was created by government for big business to keep costs down and profits up, none of this is classic dem propaganda it's just the way it is. Lets take wal-mart for instance they make millions-billions in profit every year, they only let their management positions work full-time hours while their normal sales floor people are only allowed to work up to a certain number of hours a pay period so they are considered part time (no benefits such as insurance, or retirement ) would it break them to raise the pay scale? No, will it cost them profits yes, but they may end up with a less disgruntled work force willing to do that little extra to make a difference. Husky refinery in this area just went through a strike with in the last year or two, yes the employees make a great living with great benefits but Husky would not budge and the union settled for basically cost of living increases and went back to work, last quarter 2 billion in profits. It was said earlier in this post that an hourly increase would be passed down to the consumer and that is correct but when is it not? If a business is charging you 5$ for a product they will raise their prices to cover the higher cost of manufacturing or sales which ever side it is on, it's not costing them anything but maybe a few sales. Sending jobs over seas was going to lower prices for consumers but guess what, all it did was lower the cost of production and increase big business profits along with making this country weaker, and more dependent on other countries. A government for big business can't be also for the victims of big business it won't work. When unions were being started and labor was asking for fairness and didn't get it and went on strike then government troops were sent in to quell the "uprising" who sent the troops in, the government. Why? To protect big business because they were getting kick backs from big business lobbyists. I am for hard working people making a good living, businesses making a good profit, and people having the opportunity to better themselves. I don't believe that it's the unions fault that people become lazy and satisfied living off the government but I do believe that an increase in the minimum wage can keep some people off of government assistance.

TCFarmer
02-17-2013, 12:07 PM
In this area there are a large number of adults with families working retail, fast food, and go-fer type jobs, that's why kids looking for their entry level jobs are having a hard time finding one.

In 2010 only about 15% of people under the age of 25 were working for federal minimum wage or less, for those over 25 that number drops to 4%. http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2010.htm


Lets face it minimum wage was created by government for big business to keep costs down and profits up, none of this is classic dem propaganda it's just the way it is.

If that was the purpose then why even have a minimum wage.

Marvin S
02-17-2013, 12:26 PM
Neither, and I'm not sure what side I'm on either!;-) .




Marvin I work for a skilled trade union in the construction industry and I gave you an answer from a union point of view, and as far as some of your quotes go here is my point of view. Please see above quote :)

1) the local that I work for is not against kids ( I am assuming 16 years of age) getting working experience they actually have a by law allowing contractors to hire them for summer help if certain requirements are met. And I answered why the minimum wage should be raised. I was a top hand, able to get full farm wages @ 16 because I was working at 9 years of age -

2) as for our contractors we also have a by law that allows a contractor to lay off an employee without the chance of rehire (so basically if you don't work for the contractors you don't work) and word gets around that employee A does not do his job and those employees are passed over on the books.
3) you have an issue with people who have never signed the front of a check determining the wages, I have a problem with people expecting PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO WORK to support a family on 7$ an hour and when they can't, needing assistance. If the minimum wage was higher those people may not need federal assistance. I believe Bill answered this - as for your rebuttal, it's the market, a high mini wage means folks will not look for the job they need

4) as far as entitlements go according to our contract we get no payed vacations and no payed holidays and I'm fine with that if I don't work why should I get paid! I do have a great retirement program and so-so insurance due to giving back so the contractors and the union could keep costs down. Also the contractor that I work for pays us more than our contract says he has to because we are highly skilled,very efficient, and work hard to make him money because if he doesn't make money we don't make money. Just this summer he gave all of his employees the 4 days after Labor Day off because we had worked all summer without taking time off to keep all of our jobs on schedule.


Now I am not blind to the fact that there are people in every walk of life that are all about a free ride, but there are just as many non union free loaders as there are union free loaders. Our union has worked hard to protect our contractors as well as our members, I feel we have a great working relationship and understand that if the contractors don't survive we don't survive. I am a journeyman and a state licensed contractor in my field.

I have not seen a post on these forums stating anything against private sector unions - but the majority are all adamantly opposed to the public sector unions & the government controlling prevailing wage regardless of level.


In this area there are a large number of adults with families working retail, fast food, and go-fer type jobs, that's why kids looking for their entry level jobs are having a hard time finding one. Lets face it minimum wage was created by government for big business to keep costs down and profits up, none of this is classic dem propaganda it's just the way it is. Lets take wal-mart for instance they make millions-billions in profit every year, they only let their management positions work full-time hours while their normal sales floor people are only allowed to work up to a certain number of hours a pay period so they are considered part time (no benefits such as insurance, or retirement ) would it break them to raise the pay scale? No, will it cost them profits yes, but they may end up with a less disgruntled work force willing to do that little extra to make a difference. Husky refinery in this area just went through a strike with in the last year or two, yes the employees make a great living with great benefits but Husky would not budge and the union settled for basically cost of living increases and went back to work, last quarter 2 billion in profits. It was said earlier in this post that an hourly increase would be passed down to the consumer and that is correct but when is it not? If a business is charging you 5$ for a product they will raise their prices to cover the higher cost of manufacturing or sales which ever side it is on, it's not costing them anything but maybe a few sales. Sending jobs over seas was going to lower prices for consumers but guess what, all it did was lower the cost of production and increase big business profits along with making this country weaker, and more dependent on other countries. A government for big business can't be also for the victims of big business it won't work. When unions were being started and labor was asking for fairness and didn't get it and went on strike then government troops were sent in to quell the "uprising" who sent the troops in, the government. Why? To protect big business because they were getting kick backs from big business lobbyists. I am for hard working people making a good living, businesses making a good profit, and people having the opportunity to better themselves. I don't believe that it's the unions fault that people become lazy and satisfied living off the government but I do believe that an increase in the minimum wage can keep some people off of government assistance.

You obviously flunked Econ 101 -

HPL
02-17-2013, 02:47 PM
In this area there are a large number of adults with families working retail, fast food, and go-fer type jobs, that's why kids looking for their entry level jobs are having a hard time finding one. Lets face it minimum wage was created by government for big business to keep costs down and profits up, none of this is classic dem propaganda it's just the way it is. Lets take wal-mart for instance they make millions-billions in profit every year, they only let their management positions work full-time hours while their normal sales floor people are only allowed to work up to a certain number of hours a pay period so they are considered part time (no benefits such as insurance, or retirement ) would it break them to raise the pay scale? No, will it cost them profits yes, but they may end up with a less disgruntled work force willing to do that little extra to make a difference. Husky refinery in this area just went through a strike with in the last year or two, yes the employees make a great living with great benefits but Husky would not budge and the union settled for basically cost of living increases and went back to work, last quarter 2 billion in profits. It was said earlier in this post that an hourly increase would be passed down to the consumer and that is correct but when is it not? If a business is charging you 5$ for a product they will raise their prices to cover the higher cost of manufacturing or sales which ever side it is on, it's not costing them anything but maybe a few sales. Sending jobs over seas was going to lower prices for consumers but guess what, all it did was lower the cost of production and increase big business profits along with making this country weaker, and more dependent on other countries. A government for big business can't be also for the victims of big business it won't work. When unions were being started and labor was asking for fairness and didn't get it and went on strike then government troops were sent in to quell the "uprising" who sent the troops in, the government. Why? To protect big business because they were getting kick backs from big business lobbyists. I am for hard working people making a good living, businesses making a good profit, and people having the opportunity to better themselves. I don't believe that it's the unions fault that people become lazy and satisfied living off the government but I do believe that an increase in the minimum wage can keep some people off of government assistance.

Is Husky a publicly owned company? If so, the way for employees to participate in the profits of the company is to buy stock (although it is almost always a mistake to have your entire portfolio consist of stock in the company for which one works).

How does minimum wage keep wages down? I really don't understand that.

If minimum wage is there to ensure a "living wage" for a family, what do you think that the minimum wage should be? (hint, the federal poverty level for a family of 4 is $23,050.00 and if you work a standard 40hr week,52 wks a year that's 2080hrs/yr).

sick lids
02-17-2013, 03:29 PM
I have no idea how a family of four could survive at the poverty level. My family severely struggled at almost double that for a while. Ironically people making far less lived much better than i did, they got all kinds of free stuff, and didn't have to work half as much.

Schmersal
02-17-2013, 07:54 PM
Is Husky a publicly owned company? If so, the way for employees to participate in the profits of the company is to buy stock (although it is almost always a mistake to have your entire portfolio consist of stock in the company for which one works).
Yes, and I agree (was simply using it as an example, and was not involved in the strike)


How does minimum wage keep wages down? I really don't understand that.
This is just my opinion but if company x knows the least they have to pay an employee is (just say 7$) and the company has no regard for their employees and decide to pay them 7$ an hour no more, then they have no reason to give their employees raises to keep up with the cost of living thus keeping wages lower than average. I understand that people have the chance to change their place of employment but that is if other jobs are available and they have the means to do so.

If minimum wage is there to ensure a "living wage" for a family, what do you think that the minimum wage should be? (hint, the federal poverty level for a family of 4 is $23,050.00 and if you work a standard 40hr week,52 wks a year that's 2080hrs/yr).

I don't expect the minimum wage to be $11.08 according to those figures but I do think a raise in the minimum wage can be helpful to those that need it. I have faith that not all people are along for a free ride and if a raise in the minimum wage can help those that need it we should help. I have been very fortunate to hold a very good job but started out with hardly nothing and worked my way up, maybe my opinions are misguided but I have been there.

huntinman
02-17-2013, 08:26 PM
I don't expect the minimum wage to be $11.08 according to those figures but I do think a raise in the minimum wage can be helpful to those that need it. I have faith that not all people are along for a free ride and if a raise in the minimum wage can help those that need it we should help. I have been very fortunate to hold a very good job but started out with hardly nothing and worked my way up, maybe my opinions are misguided but I have been there.

That's the American way... More should figure out how to do it rather than wait for a handout.

Schmersal
02-17-2013, 08:28 PM
I have not seen a post on these forums stating anything against private sector unions - but the majority are all adamantly opposed to the public sector unions & the government controlling prevailing wage regardless of level.


I was not turning this into a union / non union discussion, I was simply giving some background and if it came off that way it wasn't meant to. But since you brought this up, I believe the anti union folks when they say "we only want to limit the collective bargaining rights of the public employees union and not the private sector unions" about as much as I believe the anti gun folks when they say we only want ban assault weapons, and high capacity magazines, I don't.

You obviously flunked Econ 101 -


Marvin you said earlier in this post that you wanted to have a discussion, so I offered up my opinion and my thoughts on the minimum wage and wanted to have an open minded discussion listening to the opinions of you and other posters and got this " you obviously flunked Econ 101 ". Now I might not have an economics degree or political science degree but I do know when I have a discussion or debate with someone and they are open minded and are offering their opinions in a civil manner the last thing you should do is answer with condescending remarks about their education or intelligence. That is the reason why Washington is the way it is, because nobody wants to listen to to anybody else's opinions they would rather force their beliefs on to those with differing beliefs. I have reread all of my posts on this topic and can find none that were degrading,condescending or mean spirited. You must have flunked Manhood 101 especially the part about the golden rule!

condescending regards

Schmersal
02-17-2013, 08:30 PM
That's the American way... More should figure out how to do it rather than wait for a handout.



Agree 100 percent!

HPL
02-17-2013, 08:46 PM
I don't expect the minimum wage to be $11.08 according to those figures but I do think a raise in the minimum wage can be helpful to those that need it. I have faith that not all people are along for a free ride and if a raise in the minimum wage can help those that need it we should help. I have been very fortunate to hold a very good job but started out with hardly nothing and worked my way up, maybe my opinions are misguided but I have been there.

Why not? If that just gets one to break the "poverty level", and if the minimum wage is there to provide a "living" wage for families, then shouldn't it be at least what would put one slightly above the poverty level, so let's say $12.00 or maybe $15.00/hr. That seems nice to me. Of course if we raise minimum wages, that will make those who have been working their way up feel like they should get a raise also (if you don't believe that, you haven't been paying attention). I think that wage inflation will lead to price inflation making the whole process potentially counter productive. (however, I don't even remember how I did in econ 101 (if I even took it)).

Dan Storts
02-17-2013, 08:56 PM
In this area there are a large number of adults with families working retail, fast food, and go-fer type jobs, that's why kids looking for their entry level jobs are having a hard time finding one. Lets face it minimum wage was created by government for big business to keep costs down and profits up, none of this is classic dem propaganda it's just the way it is. Lets take wal-mart for instance they make millions-billions in profit every year, they only let their management positions work full-time hours while their normal sales floor people are only allowed to work up to a certain number of hours a pay period so they are considered part time (no benefits such as insurance, or retirement ) would it break them to raise the pay scale? No, will it cost them profits yes, but they may end up with a less disgruntled work force willing to do that little extra to make a difference. Husky refinery in this area just went through a strike with in the last year or two, yes the employees make a great living with great benefits but Husky would not budge and the union settled for basically cost of living increases and went back to work, last quarter 2 billion in profits. It was said earlier in this post that an hourly increase would be passed down to the consumer and that is correct but when is it not? If a business is charging you 5$ for a product they will raise their prices to cover the higher cost of manufacturing or sales which ever side it is on, it's not costing them anything but maybe a few sales. Sending jobs over seas was going to lower prices for consumers but guess what, all it did was lower the cost of production and increase big business profits along with making this country weaker, and more dependent on other countries. A government for big business can't be also for the victims of big business it won't work. When unions were being started and labor was asking for fairness and didn't get it and went on strike then government troops were sent in to quell the "uprising" who sent the troops in, the government. Why? To protect big business because they were getting kick backs from big business lobbyists. I am for hard working people making a good living, businesses making a good profit, and people having the opportunity to better themselves. I don't believe that it's the unions fault that people become lazy and satisfied living off the government but I do believe that an increase in the minimum wage can keep some people off of government assistance.

Isn't raising the minimum wage a way to make Unions happy because their wage ratio is tied to the minimum wage? Thus, it increases all the Union members wages automatically.

Marvin S
02-17-2013, 09:09 PM
Marvin you said earlier in this post that you wanted to have a discussion, so I offered up my opinion and my thoughts on the minimum wage and wanted to have an open minded discussion listening to the opinions of you and other posters and got this " you obviously flunked Econ 101 ". Now I might not have an economics degree or political science degree but I do know when I have a discussion or debate with someone and they are open minded and are offering their opinions in a civil manner the last thing you should do is answer with condescending remarks about their education or intelligence. That is the reason why Washington is the way it is, because nobody wants to listen to to anybody else's opinions they would rather force their beliefs on to those with differing beliefs. I have reread all of my posts on this topic and can find none that were degrading,condescending or mean spirited. You must have flunked Manhood 101 especially the part about the golden rule!

condescending regards

I consider myself somewhat perceptive but like HPL, you are a hard guy to come up with anything other than a fence straddle in your posts :). If you're that sensitive about your level of education you should improve on that, it's your choice as it was mine. We do have some posters on this forum who are must reads because of their thoughtful, generally not opinionated posts. I do not know what level of education they reached but they are able to express themselves. The list of those folks here is long. You obviously know little about what makes an economy tick. Join CATO, for a $100 sustaining membership you will gain a lot of knowledge. Read some of the books on the "what are you reading" post, as RK says "some serious horsepower here". Resorting to name calling generally means you believe you lost, but this is a forum to exchange ideas, if an idea is bad you better be able to defend it, which you don't appear to be prepared to do. JD believes I am condescending also, to date JD has contributed zilch to the forum other than calling UB names, which is not a contribution :o. I do believe folks should do the forum readers the courtesy of using spellcheck & proofreading their posts, apparently that's asking a lot. I do recognize the difference between sloppy & stupid :).

Minimum wage jobs are for folks with minimum wage skills - it is not about feeding a family of four on mini wage - while I recognize that some may get into that situation through no fault of their own, it seems to be the norm today. Pop a few kids & figure folks should feel sorry for you & give you things.

I worked my way through college with the aid of the GI Bill (in those days $110 per month for 36 months max) because I wanted to be in charge of my own destiny. I owned no car cause I couldn't afford one. I had no family to support, that's what you did in my day before you assumed that obligation. I had to miss a year contract mining to catch up on my bills. Is there anything wrong with that? Is there anything wrong with expecting others to do the same? I appreciate everything I have including the numerous opportunities to better myself, I would like to see that continue into the future after I'm gone. It will not be so if the government is running the show :confused:.

sick lids
02-17-2013, 09:24 PM
Dose any one know for a fact that raising minimum wage precedes inflation? With our country so far in debt is it possible that we are just going to start printing money and leaking it into the economy? This may have nothing to do with helping the poor.