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Jim Scarborough
05-03-2013, 08:57 AM
What's the news from Stillwater?

HiRollerlabs
05-03-2013, 09:47 AM
Open triple two retireds. middle retired #1 @ 350 yards thrown to right , on back edge of a ridge/path with a bowl behind mark. Right retired #2 @ 325 yards thrown left onto backside of a washed out bowl. Swing back across middle retired & flyer is far left being shot to the right @ 225 yards thrown. Lots of natural terrain to the retireds . Bowls & washouts & trees & a little water in the bowls. Lots of room to go deep if dog misses mark.Wind is blowing to the left at the line. Middle mark is a bugger. If dog is upwind & avoids the bowl, dog goes deep. If dog takes a better line & breaks left before path, dog goes deep. temp is low 40's sunny . cold wind.

It is a wide- open triple.

20 have run. 7 pickups. a few good jobs. others hunted. dogs have gone right through the fall in the middle retired yards& kept on truckin up the hill. 11:30 & lighting on middle retired is not very good imo.

Mike W.
05-03-2013, 12:52 PM
Derby to 2nd...15 back 1 2 3 4 6 7 10 11 12 15 16 17 18 19 20

labsforme
05-03-2013, 01:37 PM
Mike, can't get EE at work. You still in it?

Jeff

HiRollerlabs
05-03-2013, 02:27 PM
Open triple. approximately 46 run. 18 pickups. middle retired is still eating them up.

3:28 Almost done. at least 23 pickups. did not see every dog. Darn middle retired. Wind has picked up w
& is a little more crosswind than earlier. Dogs go right through the middle retired fall & don't check down...just keep on truckin up the hill.

Mike W.
05-03-2013, 04:01 PM
Derby

11 to 3rd.**2 3 6 7 10 11 12 15 16 17 20

Tim West
05-03-2013, 04:16 PM
And they are using ducks too!

HiRollerlabs
05-03-2013, 04:44 PM
Open callbacks after land triple. 20 dogs. 1 3 5 9 13 16 18 24 27 30 32 34 35 36 37 42 43 44 51 56

rotation 23 37 8 51

vanman
05-03-2013, 05:49 PM
Wow.sounds like a bugger

eli reichman
05-03-2013, 06:05 PM
I'd rather pu then get penciled out.

Mike W.
05-03-2013, 07:42 PM
Derby I heard for the 3rd (and final) series, that they ran from the dam. Memory bird thrown R2L where it ended up tight to the Go bird gunner, which would have made the dogs slice a corner of water at about a 10-15 degree angle. Go bird was then thrown R2L where the dogs ran the entire dike, not getting wet, to get the bird.

So, you have young dogs running PAST water down a shoreline to a go bird, then you want them to run down the same dike and take a 10 degree slice into water. So out of six birds you have one water bird that is a cheatie MF. Amazing. Sad.

Sorry for the rant but &%$#!!!

Mike W.
05-03-2013, 08:25 PM
Hey, if it's a wide open triple, and the dogs can see the gunners and the birds, then bravo to the judges.

But I did not see the test. In the open you have to throw down a tough first, then stay tough.

Better than weak-ass first series where they have to come back with a tricked up land blind and pencil whip to get numbers down.

Troopers Mom
05-03-2013, 10:18 PM
I agree....... but, when the field consists of 57 dogs (don't know if there were any scratches) and 37 of those don't make it to the second series (only 20 did), that's a 65% drop in the field in the 1st series. 57 dogs is not an exceptionally large field to have to whittle down either. The description given here of the setup sounded good and doable but maybe the terrain with the bowls and washouts was the problem so that setup was not practical here. I don't know. It is just that trials are getting increasingly more difficult and complex and it worries me that this will become a turnoff for the younger and newer players in the game who probably won't have the financial ability or desire to continually get scrubbed in the first series. Another concern that I hesitantly add is that judges judging the Open have been around awhile and know both the game and dogs well. They know a lot of the dogs strengths and weaknesses so therefore it wouldn't be too difficult to manipulate the test in the favor of certain dogs. I don't like to think that would consciously happen, but stranger things have been known to happen from time to time. I'm an idealist and I would like to think that everyone sets up their tests with all dogs in mind. I also realize that some tests occasionally have to be scrubbed because of totally unforseen difficulties with the layout in that it didn't turn out to be as doable as originally thought or there were dangerous aspects involved. I've heard these concerns voiced but people are afraid to speak up for fear their dog will not get a fair shake. I speak what concerns me and always have and to date, my dog has always gone out when he was supposed to have except possibly maybe once.

Arleen

jollydog
05-03-2013, 10:47 PM
The test was a wide open triple. Well placed birds and the gunners
were easy to pick out as well. All I can say is the work would be very good
Dogs hitting it hard then struggling. Seemed to be that way all afternoon.
Judges had a nice and fair test and I did not hear any complaints from those who ran it.
Land blind was very nice with 5 dogs dropped and 15 going to Wb.

Bustin'
05-03-2013, 11:13 PM
All I heard was Tim Springer won the Derby with Dyna!

Tom Watson
05-04-2013, 05:06 AM
Arleen:

I don't know you, so I ask: have you ever judged or handled in an Open stake? It was a fair test with well placed birds and no tricks. There was no complaining in the gallery. Seems inappropriate to make outlandish accusations, insinuations and disparaging remarks about the judging and set up from hundreds of miles away.

EdA
05-04-2013, 07:01 AM
Sometimes dogs do poorly because they are unable to overcome their handler's, such was the case with one of mine who I convinced to go upwind of a very well placed and very fair mark. No one present was unhappy about anything other than their performance as a handler (me) or their dog's performance.

Rainmaker
05-04-2013, 08:00 AM
Congratulations to Tim Springer/Dynamic Retrievers, & breeder Troy Tilleraas, for Dyna's Derby Win!

Ted Shih
05-04-2013, 09:01 AM
I agree....... but, when the field consists of 57 dogs (don't know if there were any scratches) and 37 of those don't make it to the second series (only 20 did), that's a 65% drop in the field in the 1st series. 57 dogs is not an exceptionally large field to have to whittle down either. The description given here of the setup sounded good and doable but maybe the terrain with the bowls and washouts was the problem so that setup was not practical here. I don't know. It is just that trials are getting increasingly more difficult and complex and it worries me that this will become a turnoff for the younger and newer players in the game who probably won't have the financial ability or desire to continually get scrubbed in the first series. Another concern that I hesitantly add is that judges judging the Open have been around awhile and know both the game and dogs well. They know a lot of the dogs strengths and weaknesses so therefore it wouldn't be too difficult to manipulate the test in the favor of certain dogs. I don't like to think that would consciously happen, but stranger things have been known to happen from time to time. I'm an idealist and I would like to think that everyone sets up their tests with all dogs in mind. I also realize that some tests occasionally have to be scrubbed because of totally unforseen difficulties with the layout in that it didn't turn out to be as doable as originally thought or there were dangerous aspects involved. I've heard these concerns voiced but people are afraid to speak up for fear their dog will not get a fair shake. I speak what concerns me and always have and to date, my dog has always gone out when he was supposed to have except possibly maybe once.

Arleen

My experience is far different than yours. I am not there, so cannot discuss details of test. But I trust Ed, Sylvia, and Robbie Bickley and all believe test was tough - and sound. Moreover, both Bruce and Chip are men of integrity.

First, I do not believe the kind of test manipulation you describe is practicable. I know I am not capable of doing it.

Second, my dogs are not - it seems - as predictable as yours. They miss birds I think they should get and get birds I think they should miss.

Third, as a judge, my primary mission is to find a winner. I want the contestants to enjoy themselves, but that is not what I am tasked to accomplish. As a judge, my primary goal is to find a winner. To that end, I set the test as hard as I can for the given stake. I lack the prescience to know what % of dogs will succeed on a given test.

Ted

jollydog
05-04-2013, 11:24 AM
Open Callbacks to the 4th:
1 3 13 16 30 32 35 43 56

EdA
05-04-2013, 11:52 AM
47 degrees and light rain....Brrrrrr, February in May

Troopers Mom
05-04-2013, 12:48 PM
In answer to Tom: You read what you wanted to into what I said. I never accused or made disparaging remarks about these judges. In fact, I said the setup sounded good and doable but that the terrain may have gone against the grain of the test. 65% drop in 1st series seemed excessive and in fact I have had several private messages stating what I said had merit. It is very difficult to set up a test in a given terrain and be able to predict how many dogs can handle it. The latter part of my discussion was about tests in general and did not refer to this particular test. That part probably should have been done in a separate thread so that some people like you wouldn't get too confused, but instead, try to read how it was intended. I simply voiced some concerns publicly, knowing full well there would be someone just reading words without the ability to understand them. You didn't disappoint me.

To Ted: I may have written the part about my dog badly. What I meant to say is that whenever he was dropped, he deserved it so that he has in my opinion always been handled fairly by the judges except possibly just once and I would say that is pretty darn good odds for over 5 years of running trials. Also Ted, I think by now I know your ethics and your motivations are of the highest in this game. I know most judges don't have the time or the motivation to manipulate tests, but I also realize that to "increase the odds", it can and has been done to a certain degree. Unfortunately, the realization that has been brought forth time and time again on this forum is that only a few are welcome to discuss their concerns, ideas, and opinions. I keep forgetting the rest of us should just keep quiet, read and agree with what has been said.

Arleen

TonyLattuca
05-04-2013, 02:36 PM
Whats the Am looking like

menmon
05-04-2013, 03:46 PM
I agree....... but, when the field consists of 57 dogs (don't know if there were any scratches) and 37 of those don't make it to the second series (only 20 did), that's a 65% drop in the field in the 1st series. 57 dogs is not an exceptionally large field to have to whittle down either. The description given here of the setup sounded good and doable but maybe the terrain with the bowls and washouts was the problem so that setup was not practical here. I don't know. It is just that trials are getting increasingly more difficult and complex and it worries me that this will become a turnoff for the younger and newer players in the game who probably won't have the financial ability or desire to continually get scrubbed in the first series. Another concern that I hesitantly add is that judges judging the Open have been around awhile and know both the game and dogs well. They know a lot of the dogs strengths and weaknesses so therefore it wouldn't be too difficult to manipulate the test in the favor of certain dogs. I don't like to think that would consciously happen, but stranger things have been known to happen from time to time. I'm an idealist and I would like to think that everyone sets up their tests with all dogs in mind. I also realize that some tests occasionally have to be scrubbed because of totally unforseen difficulties with the layout in that it didn't turn out to be as doable as originally thought or there were dangerous aspects involved. I've heard these concerns voiced but people are afraid to speak up for fear their dog will not get a fair shake. I speak what concerns me and always have and to date, my dog has always gone out when he was supposed to have except possibly maybe once.

Arleen

Arleen...given you have a good dog, it still may be several years before your dog can consistently do the 1st series in an all-age-stake that typically the hardest series, unlike derbies. There are many factors that can make a good dog fail...most common is the draw. If your dog runs when condition are less ideal to other times of the day, and dogs are having difficulty...your dog is most likely going to fail it too. When I first started playing this game I would book my hotel room in advance. I don't do that anymore until my dog gets through the first series. Usually there are plently rooms by then.

jollydog
05-04-2013, 04:24 PM
Open Results:
1st Deets Youngblood/ Dave Rorem
2nd Henry Starford/ Tim Milligan
3rd Tubby Aycock/ Ed
4th Onyx Scheig/ Chris
RJ Breeze Burson/ Mark Edwards
Jams 3 16 43

A big congratulations to all !
Thanks to the judges for giving us a
challenging and very fair 4 series.
Tulsa club members work very hard to put this
on and do a great job!

pam ingham
05-04-2013, 04:31 PM
yay- good for amateurs Ed and Chris!! and Lauren and Sylvia too for finishing a tough open-- and congrats as well to Dave, Tim and Mark!

jollydog
05-04-2013, 05:17 PM
Amateur callbacks:
2 3 5 6 8 10 12 16 19 24 26 28 29 33 36
38 39 40 43 44 48 54 55

budsdad
05-04-2013, 05:35 PM
Amateur callbacks:
2 3 5 6 8 10 12 16 19 24 26 28 29 33 36
38 39 40 43 44 48 54 55

Now that's a who's who of Field Trials. Which series are these callbacks?

counciloak
05-04-2013, 07:30 PM
23 pickups? That is absolutely ridiculous.

Really nice test, I wish we could have done it.

Ted Shih
05-04-2013, 08:05 PM
To Ted: I may have written the part about my dog badly. What I meant to say is that whenever he was dropped, he deserved it so that he has in my opinion always been handled fairly by the judges except possibly just once and I would say that is pretty darn good odds for over 5 years of running trials. Also Ted, I think by now I know your ethics and your motivations are of the highest in this game. I know most judges don't have the time or the motivation to manipulate tests, but I also realize that to "increase the odds", it can and has been done to a certain degree. Unfortunately, the realization that has been brought forth time and time again on this forum is that only a few are welcome to discuss their concerns, ideas, and opinions. I keep forgetting the rest of us should just keep quiet, read and agree with what has been said.

Arleen

Arleen

First, I was not aware that my disagreement with your opinions meant that your opinions were not "welcome."

Second, if I were seeking to ensure that my "chosen dog or handler" won, the last thing that I would do is set up a ball buster test with a failure rate of over 50%. That kind of test - if continued through the trial - leads to a very clear winner. Instead, if I were trying to "fix" the results, I would set up a very easy test, that I knew my "chosen dog or handler" would accomplish. I would continue with soft tests, and at the end, there would be 15 winners, of which I could select my "chosen dog or handler." It is much easier to "fix" the results in a soft trial than a hard one. So, again, I disagree with your basic assumptions about what can and cannot be done.

Third, as both a contestant and a judge, I prefer hard, ball buster style tests. It is what I like to run, and what I like to watch. That is simply a statement of taste.

Finally, I would say that many of the contestants that have posted here, have told us that they thought that the test was both fun and fair.

jollydog
05-04-2013, 08:30 PM
Can someone please post callbacks from the
Amateur land blind?
Thanks

Paul Rainbolt
05-04-2013, 09:09 PM
AM call backs water blinds - 2,3,5,6,8,10,12,16,19,24,26,28,33,39,40,43,44,54,5 5

Bruce L
05-04-2013, 11:22 PM
Wow! What an absolute and highest honor it was to have the best seat in the house for the Open; to see every dog try their best to pick up every bird utilizing their natural and trained abilities in very challenging weather conditions (rain, sleet, and mostly 25-35 mph wind) on grounds with superbly difficult land and water.

I was secondarily honored by having the awesome responsibility to be fair to each dog and each handler; and I hope my co-judge and I fulfilled that responsibility. I know we gave it our best and sincerest effort - including liberal callbacks for each series. The trial was clearly difficult and my reflections are more akin to a court reporter than a judge..... we simply recorded the testimony provided by the dogs' performance - followed by a (non-rocket science) ranking of that testimony.

I was thirdly honored and humbled by so many favorable compliments from old and new friends; regardless of whether they went out in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th series..... or placed and/or finished the trial. I know how bad it hurts to go out of a trial; and what gumption and character it takes to pay a compliment when you are hurting for yourself and your dog. One gentleman I had never met, who had just picked up on the water blind said "this is my first Open and I have had a blast". Those words will be with me for a long time.

Congratulations to all who placed, finished, or participated. Thanks to all the club members and everyone else who helped in anyway.

Most of all thanks to the dogs for a splendid weekend.... I am toasting you with a nice snifter of Courvoisier, a warm fireplace, and fond memories of your best efforts.

Bruce Loeffelholz

Tim West
05-05-2013, 12:16 AM
The Amateur was a wide open triple with good birds thrown in places that produced results. There were about 8 or 9 handles or pick ups, maybe more, 8 scratches, and the other dogs dropped for having too many or too large of hunts. Thanks to the judges for donating their time this weekend and thanks to the Tulsa RC for putting on a fine trial in difficult weather conditions. Also, thanks to Joseph McAnn of Rock Erin Kennels for the use of his fabulous facilities.

eli reichman
05-05-2013, 09:56 AM
Bruce, Having sat in the judges seat many times myself, that summation is as respectful a reply to the many trials and tribulations of judging that I've ever had the pleasure to read. Congrats on giving your best efforts and thank you for giving back to the game. Enjoy your hard earned cognac and warm fire, Eli Reichman


Wow! What an absolute and highest honor it was to have the best seat in the house for the Open; to see every dog try their best to pick up every bird utilizing their natural and trained abilities in very challenging weather conditions (rain, sleet, and mostly 25-35 mph wind) on grounds with superbly difficult land and water.

I was secondarily honored by having the awesome responsibility to be fair to each dog and each handler; and I hope my co-judge and I fulfilled that responsibility. I know we gave it our best and sincerest effort - including liberal callbacks for each series. The trial was clearly difficult and my reflections are more akin to a court reporter than a judge..... we simply recorded the testimony provided by the dogs' performance - followed by a (non-rocket science) ranking of that testimony.

I was thirdly honored and humbled by so many favorable compliments from old and new friends; regardless of whether they went out in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th series..... or placed and/or finished the trial. I know how bad it hurts to go out of a trial; and what gumption and character it takes to pay a compliment when you are hurting for yourself and your dog. One gentleman I had never met, who had just picked up on the water blind said "this is my first Open and I have had a blast". Those words will be with me for a long time.

Congratulations to all who placed, finished, or participated. Thanks to all the club members and everyone else who helped in anyway.

Most of all thanks to the dogs for a splendid weekend.... I am toasting you with a nice snifter of Courvoisier, a warm fireplace, and fond memories of your best efforts.

Bruce Loeffelholz

HiRollerlabs
05-05-2013, 10:43 AM
Am wateblind . dry pop on left. land entry of 100+ yards . irregular shoreline. into a small bay of water. stay right of a large brush pile & left of a tree. back into water, a little off shore, in swimming water not running to edge of duke/bird.

jollydog
05-05-2013, 11:16 AM
Am callbacks to the 4th:
2 3 6 8 19 24 28 33 39 40

pam ingham
05-05-2013, 12:03 PM
hmmmm, looks like ValleyView training area is well represented - good luck everybody!!

Jan Helgoth
05-05-2013, 02:38 PM
I agree....... but, when the field consists of 57 dogs (don't know if there were any scratches) and 37 of those don't make it to the second series (only 20 did), that's a 65% drop in the field in the 1st series. 57 dogs is not an exceptionally large field to have to whittle down either. The description given here of the setup sounded good and doable but maybe the terrain with the bowls and washouts was the problem so that setup was not practical here. I don't know. It is just that trials are getting increasingly more difficult and complex and it worries me that this will become a turnoff for the younger and newer players in the game who probably won't have the financial ability or desire to continually get scrubbed in the first series. Another concern that I hesitantly add is that judges judging the Open have been around awhile and know both the game and dogs well. They know a lot of the dogs strengths and weaknesses so therefore it wouldn't be too difficult to manipulate the test in the favor of certain dogs. I don't like to think that would consciously happen, but stranger things have been known to happen from time to time. I'm an idealist and I would like to think that everyone sets up their tests with all dogs in mind. I also realize that some tests occasionally have to be scrubbed because of totally unforseen difficulties with the layout in that it didn't turn out to be as doable as originally thought or there were dangerous aspects involved. I've heard these concerns voiced but people are afraid to speak up for fear their dog will not get a fair shake. I speak what concerns me and always have and to date, my dog has always gone out when he was supposed to have except possibly maybe once.

Arleen

Arleen,

I'm sorry that the boys are being a bit tough on you. It's a really rough crowd! :)

Our dog ran the first series of both the Open and the Amateur and I will give you the scoop as I saw it:

I believe that the reason there were so many pick-ups was not the terrain; it was the cold temperatures and the fierce, north wind that was blowing. I saw dogs (mine included) run with the wind through birds that they would never run through on a calm, warmer day. I saw dogs break big-time that never break. Even our truck dogs were running around like banshees in the wind, not listening, full-speed ahead. Old dogs were acting like puppies and normally slow dogs were hell-bent into the wind.

Both stakes ran less than 55 dogs which is a small field in the TX/OK/LA circuit. I can attest to the fact that the judges absolutely did set up their tests with all of the dogs in mind. We have some of the best dogs in the country winter down here and every dog running is normally awesome. The motto in this area of the country is "To be the best, you have to beat the best". Everyone that signed up knew what the terrain was going to be because most have run this trial before. When you agree to judge, you judge in the terrain that the club gives you and in this area it is all the same - hills, gullys, bowls, washouts. Both the Open and Amateur judges set up excellent tests using the terrain to their best advantage because they knew how great the dogs were and how the handlers in this area love a challenge.

I also agree that if judges are going to be cheaters (and they are out there especially in the all-age stakes) they will not throw a hard, challenging test. They will throw some rinky-dink marks that their friends will do adequately and your dog will pin. Then they will throw a land blind that their friends will go way off-line on and your dog will challenge and stay on-line. Then, their friends will get called back and you will be dropped. This is what "penciling out" is. And as Eli said, it is so much more worthwhile to pick-up because your dog just did not rise to the challenge that given day, than to get "penciled out" when they did a better job than most.

Hope this gives you some insight on this trial. The Tulsa Club always does an excellent job and most always picks knowledgeable, fair judges. If we didn't think so, we would not have made the long drive. :)

DKR
05-05-2013, 06:06 PM
Any reports about the Q?

Paul Rainbolt
05-05-2013, 08:00 PM
Q
1st - 9
2nd - 22
3rd - 17
4th - 24
rj - 14
j - 23

Ted Shih
05-05-2013, 08:05 PM
I heard that Robbie Bickley took 1st in the Am with Skeeter, 3rd with Mannie. Sorry, don't know anything more

Ted

HiRollerlabs
05-05-2013, 08:34 PM
I heard that Robbie Bickley took 1st in the Am with Skeeter, 3rd with Mannie. Sorry, don't know anything more

Ted

Pie Russell would be 2nd. Those 3 r the only dogs that did not handle. 10 went to the water marks. 1 picked up. 1 double handled. Rest single@ handled.

I believe that qualifies Skeeter and Robbie for Amateur National! Congrats to all!

Aaron Homburg
05-05-2013, 11:38 PM
Way to go Team Bickley!!!

Aaron

Kerry Lavin
05-05-2013, 11:53 PM
Q
1st - 9
2nd - 22
3rd - 17
4th - 24
rj - 14
j - 23

Congratulations Paul on Gypsy's placement! Way to go!

Maddie got her first Qual placement last month - a third. Having a ton of fun with her!

Tim West
05-06-2013, 12:25 AM
Congrats to Robbie, John and particularly to Paul! Hard to put on a trial and place in an AA stake. Way to go!

mohaled
05-06-2013, 08:03 AM
Congratulations to Rich Davis Q 2nd and Paul Q 3rd, also team Rorem for winning in open and Qual this weekend.

Gunners Up
05-06-2013, 08:28 AM
Thanks Mo and thank you for your help this weekend. It was greatly appreciated!

mpage
05-06-2013, 09:32 AM
Congrats Robbie

mjh345
05-06-2013, 10:04 AM
Congrats to all who ran and placed; and to all who participated in the Tulsa trial
Also props to the judges, birdboys, landowners and other behind the scenes workers who made the trial happen

I didnt run the trial as I've been busy with puppies that are being weaned; however I have run this trial before and it is always a well run, enjoyable fair event.
I hope to run a trial at Sooner in a few weeks when Ill be picking up and delivering some of these pups.

The reason why I make it a point to run the Okla trials kis due to the fact that there is a great core of retriever folks who work their asses of to get great , knowledgeable judges and put on a great event.

There is a great group of Ams that pitch in and work in this area. People like the Rainbolts, Wests Prices, Davis Roberts, O'Briens, Haleeds, Loggins, Dodds, Freemans, Carters. McCants, Gallaway etc. Most of these people are relatively young andtrain their own dogs and know what they are doing

There are some valid complaints that can be levelled against some FT's around the country. However when you have as large and dedicated a core group that offers up their time, knowledge, and sweat as these OKla folks do that isn't an issue here IMHO

Congrats again to all involved

Marc Healey

jollydog
05-06-2013, 12:31 PM
Amateur Results:
1st Skeeter Bickley/Robbie
2nd Pie Russell/John
3rd Manny Bickley/Robbie
4th Dottie Thompson/Judy Aycock
Jams 6 8 28 39
Congratulations to all who placed or finished!

The judges in both stakes put on challenging
setups that you looked forward to running.
Paul,Mike,Richard, Gary, and all the other club members
thanks again for all your hard work! It paid off to a very successful Field Trial!

Gunners Up
05-06-2013, 03:10 PM
The Tulsa Retriever Club! We are a small but dedicated bunch of Sadomasochists!!!!!! We all work our butts off but the true driving force for this trial happening is Paul Rainbolt. If it were not for Paul I don't think we would have had a trial this spring. The old hippy is a good dude & great amatuer trainer. If you see him at the next trial tell him "thanks" for making it happen. He deserves it!

RD

mohaled
05-06-2013, 06:30 PM
All he wants is just some training bird