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Training for calmness

10K views 39 replies 31 participants last post by  J. Walker 
#1 ·
With the high power dogs how do you train them to be calm?
 
#10 ·
I know...sorry...I kinda threw the bait out there. I truth I know a good trainer and handler can work with high energy dog. No doubt about it. Me....I'm a novice.....I DEFINITELY don't have the experience to handle such a dog.

Sorry for throwing that out there like that.
 
#9 ·
With control you can get your dog to sit in the blind with you. The noise is a different problem. IMO....That is why there are pros out there to help with that. The average trainer doesn't know how to manage a high octane dog and becomes frustrated and either quits or gives the dog up.:)
 
#11 ·
I'm not sure you can change a dogs day to day personality, but I certainly believe you can mold proper behaviors and expectations during training and testing atmospheres. I thinks it's important to note that these high drive dogs HAVE to have an outlet. You have to train for balance, and develop expectations of when its time to go, and when it's time to "not go"

I have a 16 month old that can get pretty darn high,but can turn it off in an instant, and stare a hole through you waiting on the next command. If you can harness this drive, and get the dog to engage you, then you got a dog that is a blast to train!

Bill Hillmann has some excellent material about developing that contrast between hot and cold.

Check out this video. It deals with steadiness, but he talks about how to develop the on and off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn5Fvf08ckY&feature=share&list=PLofKRn7j18jCo1Aj3laz87p3NwunEac1J
 
#28 ·
I'm not sure you can change a dogs day to day personality, but I certainly believe you can mold proper behaviors and expectations during training and testing atmospheres.
I like this I think if you've got a pup with a tendency to be a fire-breather, noise etc. and you never let them develop that particular talent, you can have a high drive, quite, and a calm dog in the same animal. Seems to me every uncontrollable fire-breather that I've ran were sort've allowed to run loose, and never taught to manage their intensity at a young age; then when it was time to steady them they were so out of control that you could only ever try to maintain the intensity. However; I've seen friends buy dogs with tendencies; which they know to be in a line; but they were no tolerance with the trait and never let it develop. Much easier to not let it develop than try to fix it; I'm not of the opinion such things can't be fixed after they are ingrained; they can only ever be maintained, which usually requires someone who knows what they're doing. It's pretty exhausting, for everyone involved.
 
#12 ·
OK... Follow up question. This is a great place to get a variety of opinions. Name some sires (or blood lines) that would qualify as "Pro-only" FC and/or AFC. That is to say, are there superbly trained dogs that would likely never be able to be tolerated in a civilized family situation? A "full time truck dog" if you will?
 
#14 ·
Seriously ? No such type of animal...not even a good urban legend...Do you really think in your heart of hearts that dogs come with a "warning label" saying not to be handled or trained by an amateur...Speculating or naming sires like that not only is a disservice to the dog itself but to all the connections involved
 
#13 ·
Wow, misconception city here. Dogs are situational. I have a high drive, semi-wild field trial dog and a very calm steady-Eddie field trial dog, both dogs are equally calm in the house or duck blind. If you ever watched Don Berard's great Ritz, you would have seen fire and brimstone on line at a field trial, yet Ritz at home was a quiet, relaxed, sleep on the bed dog. I can't turn my amped up fire breather into a calm dog, but starting as a pup and continuing through his whole life in training, I can enforce good line manners.

John
 
#15 ·
I agree with Bon; even some fire breathers have the potential to throw calm dogs. Look at the HT game there are a ton of FC sired dogs that aren't fire breathers, and are trained and handled by amateurs.

I believe it all begins with training and discipline. How you train and discipline your dog to different situations. If the dog is a house dog his whole life with proper training he has the potential to have the on/off switch. If he's not trained how to live in the house i.e. settling down on a bed during dinner. He could drive a family crazy by running amuck
 
#16 ·
The last 3 responses are very correct in their own circumstances, I have a lab that is as high drive as I think I will ever own, I knew what I was getting into and I am happy I did, he lives in the house, he was NUTS on the line when we first started marking, if you shot a gun - GOOD LUCK - but if you follow Lardy then you probably know the phrase "you own what you condone" - if he broke he never got a bird if he creeped then he had to reheel before he would be sent or he wouldn't get the bird.

A lot of guys say "those field trial dogs are nuts and always jump up on you" - wrong it is conditioning puppies want to be near your face so they jump up and try to get near your face - squat down and get your face near them and they don't jump and then later in life they don't jump!!!

keep up standards and let your dogs be a part of your family and they will be good... if you lead them.
 
#17 ·
Interesting thread. My cocker has unreal drive (a predominantly red pedigree) which has made training and hunting a wonderful experience. However I struggle with him in the house. He is well mannered and of course obedient due to all the training but while I wouldn't say he is hyperactive, he certainly cannot sit still. He is constantly pacing with something in his mouth. He doesn't jump up or anything because he knows the rules but the constant pacing can drive you bonkers. No amount of physical and mental stimulation will calm him down to the point where he will just lay down on the floor so after training or hunting I always put him in his crate to give his brain an opportunity to shut down for a bit. I sure hope it improves with age but I doubt it. He's a dream to train and hunt with but hunting season is only 3 months out of the year lol.
 
#18 ·
Instead of using the word calm the word patience is correct term. Teaching a dog to be calm until released is teachable. If you are looking for a high drive dog to be a lap dog good luck. To answer the question about a high drive dog in the boat duck hunting, No problem with a trained dog. Sit means sit and call their name to be released and the dog explodes for the retrieve.
 
#20 ·
I have a fire-breather.... right now he's sleeping at my feet as I type. Been there all day. Perfect house dog.... almost totally submissive in the house. If I look at him crossways, he almost cowers wondering "what the heck did I do wrong now....??"

Hunting he is the perfect gentleman in the blind.. but always attentive and watching for birds. I've gotten lazy... I don't watch like I used to because 99 time out of 100 Deuce will alert me to birds coming in. He has made more retrieves of birds that we would have never bagged without a dog than I can count. He doesn't give up... relentlessly searches on a hunt and will chase a bird forever. I've been warned that I need to watch him because on a hot day he would probably fall over dead from heat stroke before he would ever give up.

At a hunt test, he is full throttle. If the only place I saw him was at a test I would think he is impossible in a hunting blind or in the house. But, he's a GMHRCH.. 1000 point NAHRA dog and in any venue 1000 points says something. At a test he's like punching the throttle on a Ferrari.... oh what a thrill!

Someone already said it.. dogs are situational, just like us! I'm amped up and nervous at hunt tests too... calm and relaxed at home... and hunting.. well, hunting is hunting.

My next dog, I don't want it any other way. Give me a firebreather!
 
#23 ·
I have a fire-breather.... right now he's sleeping at my feet as I type. Been there all day. Perfect house dog.... almost totally submissive in the house. If I look at him crossways, he almost cowers wondering "what the heck did I do wrong now....??"

Hunting he is the perfect gentleman in the blind.. but always attentive and watching for birds. I've gotten lazy... I don't watch like I used to because 99 time out of 100 Deuce will alert me to birds coming in. He has made more retrieves of birds that we would have never bagged without a dog than I can count. He doesn't give up... relentlessly searches on a hunt and will chase a bird forever. I've been warned that I need to watch him because on a hot day he would probably fall over dead from heat stroke before he would ever give up.

At a hunt test, he is full throttle. If the only place I saw him was at a test I would think he is impossible in a hunting blind or in the house. But, he's a GMHRCH.. 1000 point NAHRA dog and in any venue 1000 points says something. At a test he's like punching the throttle on a Ferrari.... oh what a thrill!

Someone already said it.. dogs are situational, just like us! I'm amped up and nervous at hunt tests too... calm and relaxed at home... and hunting.. well, hunting is hunting.

My next dog, I don't want it any other way. Give me a firebreather!
And he's 7 years old. Can you believe it?

I was just thinking about how much I like my littermate to yours. I wish I knew how to get another one just like them.

Dog Mammal Vertebrate Dog breed Canidae
Dog Vertebrate Canidae Dog breed Hunting dog


Chris
 
#24 ·
I don't know. Watched a YouTube of Brit FT. And no one was breaking and they were well controlled but they seemed like pretty salty dogs to me. (Someone should tell the Brits they're sending their dogs with the wrong hand.)
 
#26 ·
I have the mellowest dog you will ever meet, calm, quiet, gentle but he proves himself time and time again in competition. 4XGMPR HRCH Rooster Smasher, MH, QAA. Rooster would have received his GRHRCH this fall if he had not pointed his bird on the upland and refused to break point to flush, he had passed the previous year. He puts calmness into the pups when bred to fire breathing females.
 
#27 ·
Not sure if this is what people consider "calmness", but my 8 mo BLM is a cryer. Its getting to the point that its becoming annoying. At first his vocalness was cute now I can see it becoming a problem. When training he gets really excited/anxious and I try to either wait him out until he stops or call it a day. I believe he has separation anxiety because he will freak out if either my wife or I go to the garage or leave the house, even if the other is still inside. I have and use a squirt bottle but its not always accessible when he's being a baby. I've done a lot of searching through these threads and the internet in general. It seems as though I should just completely ignore the dog when he's whining...i.e. don't look at him, touch him, etc. Any suggestions?
 
#29 · (Edited)
I've done a lot of searching through these threads and the internet in general. It seems as though I should just completely ignore the dog when he's whining...i.e. don't look at him, touch him, etc. Any suggestions?
I think leaving him to cry, and ignoring a dog when he's doing an undesirable behavior; is the worst thing you could do; first it's gonna drive you nuts, second he doesn't learn that what he is doing is wrong. When he cries; You need to address it, grab him by the muzzle and tell him NO_QUITE, and be consistent that you correct him every-time he makes a noise; you don't like. Some dogs don't even know they are making sound, it's never been addressed that they shouldn't and it just becomes natural for them to be vocal. The dog needs to learn that it's unacceptable, or he'll just continue to do it.
 
#30 ·
I have a fire breather who is the best house dog I have ever owned. The problem is he is so excited at a trial, handling him looses the joy. He is skilled, derby list and QAA but just can not stand the excitement at a trial so will be a day training partner for me. You can only put so much money up against an animal who just can not help himself. He drools huge pools on the floor at the sight of a cracker. Can you imagine what he does when he sees ducks?
 
#32 · (Edited)
I'll assume it's a serious question. It's something I deal with on a day in, day out basis with dogs of all sizes and breeds. Pet owners are great for buying high energy working breed puppies and having no time or desire to tire them out.

The first answer is you have to be a good match for what I call a very "busy" dog. As I mentioned a lot of people aren't. I hope the folks here have a much better chance. You then have to, in some ways asses what the reasons are behind their busyness. In the case of a high drive lab it tends to be straight up energy but in a lot of dogs it can be based in anxiety. A very nervous dog that lives in a very chaotic household will do a lot of "therapeutic" behaviors, like chewing and destroying things because it is inherently nervous about it's surroundings. Management of these dogs tends to be somewhat different but it is all based in a couple of things regardless of the "affliction". Good news is a lot of high energy dogs are very motivated for rewards which also makes them very trainable. You may have to accept the fact though, that a particular dog just isn't a house dog. I have one that I think would be a huge pain in the house. She is in at night to sleep in a crate but otherwise kenneled during the day, whether it be in her run, or on the truck travelling around for sales calls and obedience demos. I make sure she gets a fair amount of mental work every day because I can just see the energy pouring off the poor dog, if for some reason I don't get a chance to work with her. She'll parade with a bumper for a half hour when she's in this state. It's something I just have to keep after. I signed up for it when I asked the breeder for "the craziest pup he had" and he gave her to me.

Structure tends to be key for all dogs but especially the nervous and high energy ones. The dog needs to be taught early on how to gain rewards, such as attention/affection, food or being let into or let out the door. This takes a lot of patience, a good read on the dog and a good regimen of reward based training. Sitting for a high energy dog isn't just having their butt on the floor, it also includes ears back, relaxed demeanor, no noise and all four paws on the floor. Long duration "downs" are a big benefit and having a dog that loves their crate is very important. It also helps to teach the dog a number of behaviors otherwise useless like rolling over, playing dead and such, that can be used for mental stimulation when the energy level is at it's highest. After that you just have to think about how you manage a dog like this.

Silly story. As I said, I have a very busy young BLF. I thought she was going to be an absolute nightmare in my barnegat bay sneak box, until I put her up under the dodger and she literally went to sleep on me waiting for the ducks to fly. If you don't know what a dodger is, think dog blind, like a mutt hutt. Having a crate like structure on the boat is absolutely the key to this particular dog. Bank standing or in a jon boat I think you would have to constantly be on her ass but give her something like a crate and make her stay there for a little bit, and she literally starts snoring. I think if I ever end up in one of those situations I am actually going to take a blind and or stand/blind with me. It will make for a much better experience.

Back from that tangent though, if there's one thing I've noticed, it's much more efficient to force a dog to engage it's brain than to engage it's legs. You can road a dog for a fairly long time and it will be back up and playing pretty quickly. Make one work, and I mean really work, to figure out 20 minutes of obedience training or tricks, and it will sleep for a couple of hours (usually). It gets harder in older dogs as you can be continuously teaching new tricks, so that they have something to figure out but you would still be surprised what 15-30 minutes of focused, calm heeling with other behaviors mixed in will bring to the party.

High energy dogs take a lot of patience. We say fast dog, slow handler and it's absolutely true. In fact I think it should probably be "patient" handler. Waiting for one to calm down and do an acceptable behavior can be frustrating at times, but it definitely pays dividends in the longer term.

Learn how to do reward based obedience from someone with a lot of practice with high energy pups and you will find the key to getting good behavior in the house, if that's why you're asking.

I've seen and made a lot of attempts at corrective training for these dogs and while it can suppress a certain amount of behaviors, they tend to keep coming back. Taking one's time and teaching them how to properly earn rewards seems to stick a lot better. It is a lot more time, effort and work though. I usually get a call when frustration is at it's highest with a customer so I tend to use corrective training to shut down the annoying behavior but there is ALWAYS positive training in the background to help reshape the behaviors in the long term. Without it, I just get a call in a month about how the training didn't work.
 
#36 ·
I have a pup that is more then I can currently handle. He is the full nephew of my previous dog so I was hoping to get a similar level of drive – well I got 5x the drive, I’m just a joe hunter type – Not a pro or a hunt test guy. The dog did spend a few months with a pro.
He is just 16 months old – got his JH (4 for 4) last month and was a NUT at the tests (my first HTs btw).
He is a great house dog – calm and obedient. He is becoming tolerable in a duck blind – getting better every time out (mostly because we don’t get a ton of action) – My problem is upland preserve hunting. He is completely off the hook at the bird farm, He does very well on wild upland game like grouse and woodcock, (I can keep him close and he is finding birds) but if I take him to my preserve all bets are off – too much sent and it’s like he is on crack –It didn’t start that way. The first few times out he did great – found all the birds and put them up in range. Electricity has no affect when he gets to the farm. Last time out I had to just put him up and leave the birds in the field. –any advice on how to hunt him at a preserve? – he just gets too high – can it be worked out or should I just keep him off farm pheasants until he has matured a bit more? -
Thanks
JJK
 
#39 · (Edited)
any advice on how to hunt him at a preserve? – he just gets too high – can it be worked out or should I just keep him off farm pheasants until he has matured a bit more? -
Thanks
JJK
The only thing I've done that works with this type is to tire them-out mentally. Basically I get a chair and a drink, and I put psycho dog on a down stay and he is made to stay there until he calms and until I decide he can get up. It's sort've like asking a sugar-high kid to sit and be still, ;).Takes a bit to get them solid on it; at first it's physically and mentally exhausting for all parties involved. But eventually it starts to stick and the dog will take less and less time to calm. Plus side this simple mental exercise of making a psycho dog stay; completely wipes their energy (sometimes your as well ;)). Eventually psycho dog is on a down stay for entire training sessions; with birds and other dogs going every which way. Then we get to the upland field and if dog goes psycho he goes on a down stay again, doesn't get up until he's calm (I don't care how long it takes). Requires a bunch of handler patience(to not kill psycho dog); when he is unable to stay on a down; but it's worked for a couple heavy offenders. Even got a psycho fire-breather his HRCH title, dog couldn't sit but would calm on the down. I remember months of having that dog down out in the middle of a field as others ran; continuously having to put him back on his spot and back in the down; before it stuck that you cannot get up, your not getting birds, after you get birds; you still have to down; I'm not putting you away excited; and I'm more stubborn than you -So you might as well calm down. Dog was 6 yrs. old at the time; I wish I had had him as a pup it would've been so much easier, to control earlier.
 
#38 · (Edited)
I have not read this entire thread. Apologies if this has been covered but my comment is that whatever you do in trying to create a calm dog, none of it will work if you yourself are not calm. Excitable, highly animated people usually don't have calm dogs. Be calm and deliberate in your praise, your corrections, and your general management of the dog. Shouting, screaming, fast hand motions, jumping around, panic in your voice, etc. ... will all make it worse.

Kinda like, "train a fast dog slow and a slow dog fast".

Good luck.

JS
 
#40 ·
There are definitely things that can be done to improve a dog's focus and control. For starters, you need a good obedience regimen. I have one I use that is not related to field training since I haven't seen a field training video with even decent obedience methods. One thing most people don't do is teach the dog something then proof it in gradually more tempting situations. I just had my dogs out this week at kids' soccer games making them do precise heeling and sit-stays and down-stays with people walking by, the kids yelling, balls rolling by, etc. All of that said, some dogs are just never going to be calm as it's not in their nature. They can be under control and very obedient but when they are released, it's a jail-break. My dogs are very obedient but there have been huge differences in their temperaments that are just part of what have made each dog unique. Case in point, my little rescued Golden-Beagle mix is incredibly calm when doing any obedience even in distracting situations. Yet, he'll go after squirrels with a vengeance and sounds like the Tasmanian devil when he's playing with other dogs. My much higher strung field dog will watch squirrels run through the yard with complete disinterest, never making so much as a peep. He'll play with other dogs if he feels like it but often prefers chewing on pine cones. In the field, saying he's wound tight would be an understatement. My point is that much of a dog's calmness or lack thereof is situational based on what motivates that dog.
 
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