RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner

Drills for Land Cheating?

4K views 23 replies 9 participants last post by  Purpledawg 
#1 ·
Yes you read it right, I have a land cheating dog, it's almost like she programed to find any body of water. I'll agree 80% of the time it is better to have a dog in the water, however I want to tighten up her lines, and her land avoidance is causing me headaches. On long entries, she hits the water too soon, on shore-line marks she has a tendency to get fat, and she feels the need to hit any pond that might be anywhere in the vicinity of the line to a mark. The correction aspect is an issue as well give her a nick anywhere close and she's in the water, seems like I've been zapping her in mid-air , but she's just not getting the connection, just pushes her into the water faster. Look for suggestion to keep her on land.
 
#2 ·
Instead of correcting the dog for doing what you just trained it to do, set up complex cheaters so that the dog learns to balance itself.

The idea is, that when the dog is too safe on the initial entry, it sets itself up for a tighter cheat on the re-entry.

 
#3 · (Edited)
I wouldn't call it land cheating as much as trying to avoid pressure by going where he feels safe. I don't know your dog and it may be the exception, but usually an overly watery dog is a combination of a natural waterness and training, the training has made water the safe place to be. I would work on balance, take all pressure off around water and use drills to make your dog comfortable running down a shoreline without getting in the water. Getting in fat and taking too much water is usually a trait of a young transisition dog, the long fine entries are more an all age refinement that come with experience.

It's always good to know your dog's tendancies. I have a buddy with a very watery all age dog, I watched him screw his dog up in the fourth series by not trusting his dog. He false lined him into big water, rather than pointing the dog down the shore to the key bird. The dog took the line he was given and made a couragous swim all the way across the water well past the bird. My buddy had chickened out after watching dog after dog cave in and miss the mark, if he had a little faith he could have won that trial.

John
 
#18 ·
We've done this 5pt drill, angles across the pond crossing dikes etc. Not an issue as long as she's in the water, but I could set it up as angles across land, last 2 taking a sliver of water than an angle entry. That might work, I shall try it.
 
#5 ·
And as far as correcting is concerned, here's an example of two dogs. Red line, and purple line.

Purple line, was an Angel. He did no wrong.
Red line, was a vile sinner. Every time he had a choice to make, he chose wrong.



Now, in real life you are going to get a mix of the two lines.
The beauty of a complex cheater like these two, is that being too honest in the first pond, makes it more tempting to cheat the second.

A dog that starts off with the purple line, is far more likely to switch to the red line as it leaves the first pond. And that gives you an opportunity to give a correction that the dog will understand.

If your dog stays on the purple line, there is nothing to correct! Just keep repeating it, and the dog will gradually correct itself. It will "self-straighten".
 
#6 ·
Are you saying if he takes the purple line he is good and you don't correct? Why? and should you not help him a little straighten that line out? How is the other line any different than the purple line??? They are both not straight to the blind if that is the yellow line??? So I am confused and lost???:)
 
#10 ·
If you correct red line dog, his lines will improve.

If you correct purple line dog, you will create new problems, and his lines will get worse.
 
#12 ·
Mary Lynn, put yourself in the mind of the dog as you trace those routes. Following the red line you can see that at every point he had to make a decision between getting in the water or avoiding it, he or she choose land. If you were handling that dog you would handle with or without a correction at each of those points. The purple line dog chose wisely, you let him go even if he overdoes the good with too much water. The OP's dog is at a stage where he is too watery, the challenge there is to let him know it is ok to ease up a little on that waterness without teaching a bad habit. It is all about reading your dog and trying to maintain balance.

John
 
#14 ·
I don't think you're being fair to the dog. The dog is trying to be a good dog and do what he was trained to do. Now you're trying to train for just the opposite and you'll be confusing the dog. But if you’re going to try it. I would do it as cheaty blind then change the blinds to marks. No pressure, at all. I would use attrition. And I would use white stake blinds to straighten the dog out.
But in the long run I believe you're going to create confusion in the dog because now he has to make choice water or land? He may get confused to the point that he starts popping on marks and looking for you to help him out. That would be worse than taking too much water.
As for the diagram it's very nice, but I don't know too many people with access to tech water like that.
 
#16 · (Edited)
For a young dog I'd agree, water good. This is a 5yr. MH who just JAMMed her first Qual, however caving to water took us out of placement. A long water entry where she was supposed to run pass the 1st pond, then angle the second & corner touch the third pond. She caved to the water, hit the first pond, went fat into the 2nd, adjusted to the bird in the 3rd, came back the same way. Most other dogs cheated the water, we went significantly fat. It's an issue that needs to be addressed on her marks if we wish to continue in the FT game, only way I can think to do it is, reverse water de-cheating, however it's competing with normal training, of take the water.

I agree that safety in the water was an issue, used to be if she got wet she shrinks and could pinch off the collar, we've adjusted for that. Still competing with that ghost.
 
#17 ·
For a young dog I'd agree, water good. This is a 5yr. MH who just JAMMed her first Qual, however caving to water took us out of placement. A long water entry where she was supposed to run pass the 1st pond, then angle the second & corner touch the third pond. She caved to the water, hit the first pond, went fat into the 2nd, adjusted to the bird in the 3rd, came back the same way Most other dogs cheated the water, we went significantly fat. It's an issue that needs to be addressed on her marks if we wish to continue in the FT game, only way I can think to do it is, reverse water de-cheating, however it's competing with normal training, of take the water.
I get it, but I still wouldn't put pressure on it. Sombody mentioned tune-up drills, that is an excellent idea as are Chinese drills. I also mentioned sight blinds across water at finer and finer lines with the last down the shore not getting in the water. When your dog starts to bail in early, stop and cast down the shore. Once in the water and you need to tighten up to shore, use a softer whistle and very slow, easy, walking angle cast toward shore. The harder or louder the cast the more the dog will drive away from shore. This is very similar to teaching an "easy" check-down bird. Remove all pressure and ease the dog into it.

Also a five year old MH just starting all age work is still a young dog. Many field trial dogs that ran FTs their whole life are just getting it at that age.

John
 
#21 · (Edited)
The water doesn't need to be super interesting. It's how you use it that's important. If you have water that allows for re-entries, odds are that you can use it "right" or "wrong".

In this example, you would want to run the yellow lines with a dog that tends to go fat.
The red lines, would be for a dog that tends to cheat, or go thin.



The water is nothing special. It's just about how you use it.
 
#23 ·
If purple line was that bad, I went way overkill on previous simple cheaters.
Thank you for saying the above. I looked at the purple lines and I was waaay pissed at me for being so slow on the whistle and the dog for scalloping every cast. I think some water tuneup drills are in order for both the dog and the handler.
 
#24 ·
I watched Billy Sargenti teach 2 of his younger dogs that had come out of water swim by to make long angled water entries running along side water with lots of style and confidence. He began by marking a pile of bumpers and started really close on a channel pond. The first line was an angle across to the pile about down close to the waters edge about 3 yds from the pile. Once the dog retrieved, he backed up a bit, and did it again. When the dog got in at the correct spot he praised it with a GOOD dog, and he backed up, IF the dog went in early, he would whistle sit it, and cast back. NO COLLAR pressure at all. Teaching. He did this over several days. Eventually these dogs were able to ran 150 yds down a road to the entry point confidently after the end of the drill. He then move the concept to another one his ponds.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top