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controlled break or verbally restraining the dog?

  • drop the team because the handler spoke to the dog before dog was released

    Votes: 60 36.1%
  • carry the team with stern warning

    Votes: 106 63.9%

controlled break poll

10K views 61 replies 32 participants last post by  Golddogs 
#1 · (Edited)
It is hard to keep track of everyone's opinions on the 'controlled break' thread...

so...

if a sr handler speaks to his dog because he 'feels' the dog is about to break (even tho the dog is NOT making forward movement), do you as a judge drop the dog or carry the dog with appropriate 'penalty'. .. the dog may be 'dancing', may be standing, may be whining..whatever...the bottom line is that the dog has NOT made forward movement.

arm chair judging, regards. ;)

Juli
 
#2 ·
To me if the hunting dog is steady, even if I have to verbally remind him, with all the guns going off, how is my vocalization going to scare away the ducks?? Safety first, talking to the dog should not be scored zero in senior. That's my opinion, but then again who am I?? :)
 
#3 ·
Being a newbie..... I prolly should keep my mouth shut, but here goes. If the rule clearly states no talking to the dog after bird was called. Then you have no choice but to drop them....... I think in the original post, if the handler would have waited for the dog to break (move forward), then said something...... then so be it.... it is a controlled break. I dont agree with this rule, but you need rules, and they are what they are. JMO
 
#5 ·
I primarily run (and judge) HRC but I have run and trained a dog to the Master level and have to "bite my tongue" every time I run and AKC H/T. I have been verbally "warned" several times while running AKC H/T's because of saying "Sit" while the birds are in the air as a force of habit (as you can do in HRC). It has been a while since I have read the AKC H/T rules and I know that you can't talk to your dog after signalling ready and/or until the judges have called 'Dog' (or the dog's #). I personally think it would be a crying shame to drop a dog cause the handler spoke to the dog (if the dog was steady and not making any forward motion). I'm sure that it certainly would be within the judge's right to drop the dog and that "rules are rules", but that would certainly make for a bad day at the line. Now, forward motion while speaking is a whole other deal....CB indeed.
 
#6 ·
Chapter 5, paragraph 11
In senior and master hunting tests a handler shall not hold or touch a dog to keep it steady, or verbally restrain a dog online, except in extraordinary circumstances, from the time the first bird is thrown until the dog's number is called. Violation of any of the provisions of this paragraph is sufficient cause to justify a grade of '0' in trainability.

Juli
 
#7 ·
what are extraordinary circumstances?
 
#9 ·
Frenchy,

please post the parts of the rule book that directly apply to this...I am not going to go through the entire thing....This rule specifically speaks to the issue at hand...the use of verbal restraint.


the rule states you cannot hold, touch or speak to a dog to keep it steady...

a fun debate it is...and will continue to be.. :)

Juli
 
#10 ·
I was wondering about this, my answer was based on what I would want, not what the rules want.

I was at a Senior hunt test and this one dog was steady, up to the point the judge called for the dog, in doing so the dog took off, handler controlled the dog and re-sent. If the handler had just let the dog go he would have been fine, but since he controlled the dog back to heel he was scored as a "Controlled Break", let the buyer beware! :)
 
#11 ·
I love how people want to interpret the rule book in such a way to help their situation...

Maybe we should have another poll that asks that if the dog did the same thing in a Master test and the handler said nothing should the dog be dropped for a controled break. What the dog did has no bearing on why the person was dropped. The person was dropped because they had a brain fart and opened their mouth before the judge said "DOG".
 
#12 ·
since he controlled the dog back to heel he was scored as a "Controlled Break",
I am wondering how the dog could have a controlled break if he was already released by the judges?
 
#14 · (Edited)
Julie, in your poll you have carry the team with a stern warning as a choice. Why the stern warning? The handler should know he said something to the dog. I might remind him he had a controlled break but it wouldn't be a stern warning.

Kinda sounds like you're chewing his a**. :p
 
#24 ·
stern warning was my shorthand for telling the handler that's a serious fault, don't do it again. I'd presume most judges would give some sort of warning to a handler that spoke to steady his dog (while birds were in the air).

I am not an a** chewer, just ask my kids.:cool:

Juli
 
#18 ·
I voted to carry them, but obviously each scenario would have to be judged on it's specific set of circumstances. Someone asked "what's extrordinary circumstances?", I would add the question, "what is verbally restraining"? A quiet "sit", or having to raise one's voice threateningly? Another point of debate may be how can a controlled break be allowed, if it requires a verbal command (restraint) to bring the dog under "control"? Doesn't one allowance in the rules sort of violate the other? Of course judges must follow the rules, but within their discretion, there will surely be some variation amongst different judges. Again withing the regs, I think anything that a hunting buddy would say to his dog as ducks were lighting to restrain him, that you wouldn't mind while sitting next to him, would be ok.
 
#19 ·
I'm a rookie, never even been to a field trial, but I'll say this. In every sport or competition there are rules and there are judges to interpret those rules. It's always subjective at times. What I have always thought was most important was consistency. If a judge calls it the same way every time then its up to the handler to know a little about the judge and handle the dog accordingly. On the other hand, if the judge calls it differently on different occasions, then he/she is a problem.
 
#22 ·
Byron, in my experience that is the ONLY time you have a break, controlled or otherwise. Once the dog is released its impossible to break from the judges point of view. Sadly, I have too much experience in this issue. Got dropped once for talking when I told him to sit when I knew he was going to leave, and dropped the next time for a break because I did not say sit.
 
#27 ·
I am not a judge and have not even attended a judges seminar so I did not vote. I will say that if I were to speak to my dog at any level of AKC HT after I called for the birds I would expect to be dropped. If I did this and was not dropped I would feel that I had been given a gift to a certain extent. Not that a ribbon would be unearned necessarily, the dog still has to do the work, but I would feel that I had dodged a bullet / judges showed mercy for my dumb/poor/possibly ignorant handling. I have been a recipient of mercy before, so I know what it feels like, but fortunately have not needed it for this issue.



I would say that in a controlled break the dog would start to leave (i.e. stand up and take one or more steps forward with the intent to leave) then you could tell the dog to sit/heel and that would be a controlled break (possibly, depending on how far the dog went and how the dog responds to the verbal command). I would think it could be tricky for the judge to determine where creeping stops and breaking begins. Do you speak to your dog for creeping? I dunno. Mine mostly creeps in HRC for some reason.
 
#25 · (Edited)
no forward movement = no break!
saying sit = speaking to dog
speaking to dog = breaking the rules
breaking the rules = consequences!
(I have read this comment several times "the dog is judged on what the judges see, not what the handler thinks" <----- I agree with that, if the dog was judged on what the handler thought then there would be no point of a judge.)
I would also expect that I would be dropped (being new and haven't ran a dog yet) as quickly as some one who has ran a hundred dogs for breaking a rule.
 
#28 ·
I would also expect that I would be dropped (being new and haven't ran a dog yet) as quickly as some one who has ran a hundred dogs for breaking a rule.
That is a good attitude to have. However, the truth is that if you show up at a Junior test, ask questions in the handler's meeting and identify yourself as a first time handler, there is probably a better chance that you would be shown mercy and simply be corrected/warned/educated by the judges for some technical handler error than a more experienced handler would (a known handler or a pro) and I have no problem with that. If a judge is going to show mercy for handler error, a junior hunt test and a newbie handler is a good time to do it if the dog did the work IMO.
 
#26 ·
the penalty for either would be the same; a low trainability score. any unsteadiness in the other marking test would be cause to fail the dog for gross unsteadiness.

the fault in either case is the same; unsteadiness. the senior standard allows for some, but it requires that penalty.-Paul
 
#29 ·
Juli I think you missed the point of the other thread. It was never, for me anyway, about dropping them or not but rather was it a controlled break or just talking to the dog. You do not have to drop a handler for talking to the dog, you may but you do not have too. Likewise you do not have to carry a senior dog for a controlled break, but you may carry that dog.

Classification of Faults
Classification of the many faults which may be exhibited
by retrievers during the course of a hunting test shall be primarily
in terms of generalizations. In the lists which follow,
various infractions are cataloged as I. Serious Faults, II.
Moderate Faults and III. Minor Faults. Each fault should be
considered as a single occurrence, and only to an average
degree. However, such infraction may be so minor in degree
that it scarcely merits the indicated penalty. Conversely, the
degree of a given instance of infraction may be of sufficient
gravity to merit a much more severe penalty that is suggested
— even to the point of elimination from the stake. Also, in
each of these three general categories, all of the faults listed
should not be given equal weight, since they are not of equal
gravity or importance.
Repetition of a fault, particularly time after time, indicates
a “weakness” or a bad habit, and justifies much more penalty
than in an isolated occurrence of this fault. The same
holds true when there is a combination of different faults.
The listing of individual faults within each category has not
been made in the order of their seriousness. A Judge may be
thoroughly justified in moderating a penalty or even in failing
to impose one, if, in his or her opinion, there have been
extenuating circumstances to justify such action.
The faults included in this classification are limited to
those which are observed most often at retriever Hunting
Tests. Others may occur, such as the repeated failure to
exercise gun safety, and this classification may serve as a
helpful guide on such occasions in determining the relative
importance of such unusual offenses.
 
#30 ·
So, basically, it can be okay to talk to your dog in seniors and not get an immediate dq..but rather you can dinged on trainability. If you have a REALLY good dog, then perhaps as a handler you are wise to use this to your advantage.

I guess to me the rule is more cut and dry..and people should train for it...no talking to the dog to 'steady' them. If the dog breaks and you can get him under control, that shows 'some' trainability.
If the dog is 'dancing' at the line and the handler tells him 'sit', then as a judge do you know how much trainability the dog has (with regards to steadiness)?

Personally, I would not want to take the chance of talking to my dog and be dropped for it, or have it added to a low trainability score.

Juli
 
#31 ·
For me as a judge it is not that you can. I would drop you if I thought you were doing it on purpose and you knew better. For me it is more as described in the other thread, a new handler forgetting they cannot talk or an actual controled break (not really talking infraction). If you are just talking for the sake of talking, restraining, or training you stand a good chance of getting dropped. It is much harder to drop someone because they let one word slip, it happens to the best of us
 
#32 ·
I am a trial judge, but the rules are basically the same for a minor stake.

I am not there to judge intent. I am going to give the benefit of the doubt to the dog/handler and score it as a controlled break. I wouldn't give a stern warning either. Handlers should know the rules unless they are new and then I would kindly explain it to them.
 
#34 ·
This is really pretty simple. When the dog stands up or creeps a ways towards the fall it is basically a trainability issue and can be dealt with on that basis. At some point the creep becomes a safety issue and then we have another issue but that isn't the issue at hand here.
The point is that when the dog stood up - the handler for whatever reason (and there really is only one - he knew or suspected that the dog was going to break) said something (doesn't really matter what it was) that served to prevent the dog from further actions.
It isn't a controlled break until the dog manifests the intent to make the retrieve and is successfully stopped. BUUUUUUUUUuttttttt the handler -by telling the dog to stop that crap took the pencil out of the judges hands. He communicated by his actions that the dogs behavior was unacceptable and acted to stop that behavior - and that is a problem. At that point the judges have a decision to make:
1. The handler stopped a break in the birth stages - controlled break rules apply
2. Handler broke the "No talking" rule - immediate disqualification

In the Master stake it reall doesn't matter - no difference both are disqualifying.

In the Senior stake there is room for "SOME" allowances we are expecting a few rough edges.

Either way - I would have to see it to judge it.

Lesson is that unless the dog actually bolts- shut up and trust her to remember her manners.

It's a LOT easier with /pauls dogs - once they decide to go it's all over regards

Bubba
 
#36 ·
Thats because I've trained them not to break, but if you do you better do it with great style....

So, if a dog moves while the birds are going down and the handler makes an effort to stop the dog, should I assume the handler thought he was making an attempt to retrieve?

/Paul
 
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