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2 birds at once

8K views 41 replies 19 participants last post by  Tom Mouer 
#1 ·
I have a friend who is looking to run in HT with his lab. He has been training to duck hunt, but now her wants to put her in tests. Sometimes during a retrieve, she will pick up the long bird first and the on the way back, she will also pick up the other bird, having two birds in her mouth at once. How would this play in a HT? I know about switching, but this is something that I never heard of in a test.
 
#3 · (Edited)
I'm not up on the latest hunt test rules, but do you have a rule to support your position?

It has never happened in a field trial that I have ever seen, so it's probably a moot point, but I too have a dog that can pick up as many as three full size mallards without setting one down to pick up the other, then bring them all back from the long station. I know this because we commonly throw the long bird twice to give the dog another look before we send, my dog is the only dog on the truck that seems compelled to pick up every duck in the area before returning. This has led to heated discussion on how you would judge it if he were to, for example, pick up a tight in-line bird on his way back from the long bird, and did it without dropping, or even shifting his hold on the original bird, bringing both birds back at once. One could argue he should get extra credit for saving time and disturbing less cover.

I would have a hard time dropping that dog, but would have an equal hard time judging it.

John

ps: My advise to the OP would be to get on the come-in whistle hard, and avoid any drama or judges dilemma.
 
#6 ·
I would pass the dog as long as the first bird retrieved was not dropped to pick up the second. Saw a big Chessie do this once with the diversion. Both were brought back and delivered to hand.
Judges passed the dog.
MP
 
#9 ·
On a related note, I once saw a dog win an Open, where in the first series, she picked up the long middle bird second, then took the long way home, running all the way over to stand over the left hand bird, she actually dropped her bird but picked it up again without switching, then after a bit of emphatic come-in whistling returned to the line. Needless to say, she knew right where that check down bird was and pinned it.

There was quite a lively debate in the gallery, pulling the rule book out to look for appropriate clauses, trying to determine if she switched, or should just be dropped on general principal.

John
 
#17 ·
I don't believe that there is only one correct answer. I have a feeling that if more people hunted their retrievers there might be more agreeing with the efficiency of fetching two birds at once. Now mind you, I didn't really say what I train for or what I really think is right. I do have an open mind.
Im not saying there is only one correct answer either. Common practice is dog is sent to retrieve a single bird at a time, training programs at least the ones im familiar train this way. While I have witnessed the guides you refer to, I have also seen the guide's dogs that are trained to break on the first shot, to retrieve. I dont condone that behavior anymore than retrieving multiple marks at the same time. I have said it before and will again, a person who has done any amount of training will devise there own methods to accomplish their own goals. It usually only takes one dog to realize the shortcomings in ones training methods....LMAO. Regards from an avid waterfowler who's dog is trained to pick up one mark at time.
 
#19 ·
Cant it be both ways. For example if a dog has a tendency to pick up two at once but can also be properly trained on a come in whistle, why cant it pick up two when hunting and one at a time in a test. Blow the come in whistle at the test not while hunting and nothing is being ignored. Also I completely believe they 100% now the difference between hunting and test/training/trial would not think it would be very hard to establish the difference especially with a well conditioned come in whistle. Don't know that anyone would teach to pick up more then one or even how you would but if you dog is inclined to do both why not have the best of both worlds?
 
#20 ·
I suspect there will be a wider separation of the birds in a ht situation than in hunting. Without actually knowing, I'll bet the dog is running seasoned or senior. The birds will be fairly wide apart.
 
#23 ·
In HRC, they tie a ribbon on the diversion bird for a reason. Many dogs have delivered both the diversion and the mark at the same time, and passed.

As long as the one on the outside, has the ribbon.
 
#24 ·
A diversion is not a mark (at least in AKC rules)

The OP was talking about a dog going for the long bird and picking up the short on the way back to the line. He established a hunt on the long bird
and was recalled (handled in) and then established another hunt.
 
#25 ·
Bert, I'm not arguing with you, just looking for clarification. It appears you are saying the dog would be dropped for a switch since it hunted two areas.
I would argue that it is not a switch since the dog retrieved two birds on his two hunts.
I consider a switch to be when a dog goes to an AOF, establishes a hunt then leaves that AOF WITHOUT coming up with a bird to go hunt another AOF
 
#26 ·
If it was a seasoned or senior hunt test, the birds (marks) would be widely separated and not returning promptly and directly would be a serious fault, IMHO. I looked in the HRC rule book and didn't see anything that directly applied. Nevertheless, a dog going a 100 yds or so off a reasonable return line would not be an obedient dog, IMHO.

Plus the purpose of the double is to demostrate memory. Maybe he did that but maybe not.

If memory bird was such that he could wind the bird on the way in, was that showing memory?

This is such an easy thing to fix. I am not a judge, so maybe one or two experienced judges could tell us what they think.
 
#29 ·
In a AKC HT a "switch" is defined as a dog leaving a hunt or dropping a bird to go after another. Some years ago a friend had a lab who would routinely pick up the diversion bird on a return w/o dropping the bird in mouth. This past weekend the dog picked up the poison bird blind, then ignored commands to come in and picked up the flyer as well. In the first case, no foul, no harm. In the later, yer out. While it might not cause the dog to be dropped, depending on the situation, it's a habit that - as in the later example - could cause a problem. As suggested, a come-in whistle means just that.
 
#30 ·
The dog has to act like a woman.

It has to change it's mind. Like right when you are ready to leave for dinner, they decide to wear a different dress. Or even worse, when they have to leave the party, and go change because somebody else is wearing the same thing.

There is no penalty for picking up whisky, when they go out for milk.
 
#31 ·
There is no penalty for picking up whisky, when they go out for milk.
Yeah, but if the dog doesn't return with any ice to pour it over, we're gonna' have a problem :cool:

(No mixer allowed either ;))

If there's enough separation between marks that would keep the dog on a line back on a return, yet, if the dog is making a conscious effort to run completely out of it to pick up a second bumper, then I'm in the camp of those who suggest re-enforcing HERE.

Seems that if the OP began teaching Doubles as Singles first, and then brought them both together as Doubles afterwards, that there "should've" been enough REPS for the dog to not even think about running to another mark after hearing a whistle and a verbal HERE, dunno'.

I give the dog a lot of credit-
Why pay for the same real-estate twice! :p
 
#32 ·
she will pick up the long bird first and the on the way back, she will also pick up the other bird, having two birds in her mouth at once. How would this play in a HT.
Section 9.
Upon finding the game, a dog shall quickly pick it up and return briskly to its handler. A dog retrieving a decoy shall be graded "0" on Trainability. A dog shall not drop its game on the ground, but distinction shall be made between deliberately dropping a bird, and readjusting a bad hold or losing its grip because of a struggling bird or running over uneven terrain.
 
#38 ·
I could make a case that the dog did in fact pick up the bird and returned briskly to the handler, scooping the other duck on his way home, the dog didn't pick up a decoy, drop or readjust his hold. I have a dog that can do that, it has never been an issue as I haven't run marks that are that tight where he goes long first, but it could happen.

Like I said, as a handler I wouldn't risk trying it for fear of being dropped, but as a judge I would have a hard time dropping that dog.

John
 
#33 ·
Ken Bora

Yes for hunt test rules but what do you expect from your dogs on Merrymeeting Bay or Lake Champlain in the winter? I know that you have Chessies and they can tolerate it but not everyone has Chessies.

Have you been on Great South Bay when it ices, then the tide breaks it up into ice floes? I think I might break hunt test rules.
 
#34 ·
I have a friend who is looking to run in HT with his lab.
Ken Bora

Yes for hunt test rules but what do you expect......
what I expect while hunting makes no never mind. the OP want to go to a test.
all I expect while hunting on those cold days is for the Chessie to shake the froze drool and duck blood off of his snout afore thrusting it into my half drunk coffee cup.
and stop trying to catch the empty hulls kicked out of the shotgun!
 
#42 ·
I witnessed a similar occurrence at the GRCA Specialty Field Trial held at FT AP Hii,VA in 1978 or 1979.
The dog picked up the second bird while retrieving the long bird. Did not drop either bird on the return. The judges, as I recall, made a minor point deduction on trainability.
Certainly not for marking or perseverance or style.
The dog placed in the ribbons, i don't recall the placement,The dog was an FC/AFC before the FT, so the ribbon was not a "Golden Gift."
The "gallery lawyers" were buzzing as would be expected, but the judges, with "common sense", prevailed.
It was noted that none of the "lawyer" could support their erroneous conclusion(s). Even with the FT Rule in their hands.
They had the book, but not the Chapter or verse!



"The Rightous are not always right" I read that a long time ago and have found it to be a valid observation.
 
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