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handling question-line

11K views 82 replies 15 participants last post by  Mary Lynn Metras 
#1 ·
so working through pattern blinds with 1 year old CLM and no big deal thought well this was easy he was lining every one of them. till i added the stickman like lardy instructs in diversions. had to handle away from it and on to blind. ran it a few times like that. then threw mark retrieved mark and then ran blind again had to handle away from fall.

my question is this:

in the early stages of handling are you wanting the most straight line you can get or is it ok for a little veer. in other words when he was say 5-10 yards off the line right or left i was met with a dilema. do i follow the saying "Over to the gold, back to the truck" or do i just give him a right/left back and let him drift back on line at this young stage. i went with the over and he'd take it but by the time he ran 5-10 steps and i whistled he'd over ran the line so then it was an opposite over. eventually i went with a back if he was within 5-10 yards off the line and he soon drifted back on line. now if he was well off the line i would of def given an over. luckily i never allowed a huge drift to occur before giving a whistle

obviously you want to keep high standards but at this early in the handling process do you have to build up the standard before you can keep it? or do you just start at the high standard and never drop down?
 
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#2 ·
I don't care about lining the legs on the three-legged-pattern.

I want the dog to go, when I say go. To stop when I say stop, and to carry a cast in the general direction that I give it.

It's a transitional handling drill, that gets you away from the yard drills, and one step closer to handling in the field. You don't need the dog to line the legs. You need to develop casting momentum, and direction that you can take to the field.

There are other ways to get it. But, the three-legged-pattern is a pretty good way to get there.
 
#4 · (Edited)
im not worried about him lining it either. but from what i take from your post you are saying that this drill is more about taking the casts rather than straight lines.

so in essence if i know that a back will get him there but it wont necessarily be a straight line on paper then give it? this will translate into him knowing that my handles lead to blinds (or marks if need be)

Listen to Lardy!!!! He talks about this in the video. On blind drills you are looking for a correction like this. That's the woodie point of the drill.
i planned on re watching that scene tonight. i always re-read the manuals before i go out and start something new then when i run into problems or have free time make sure i'm doing everything correct via dvds
 
#8 ·
In Pattern Blinds, a dog will never take a direct line to the known pile. Most often it'll look like big bananas. You can try all you want to straighten the line out but it'll come back on the next send. This is all about momentum for the dog.
 
#9 ·
in the early stages of handling are you wanting the most straight line you can get or is it ok for a little veer. in other words when he was say 5-10 yards off the line right or left i was met with a dilema. do i follow the saying "Over to the gold, back to the truck" or do i just give him a right/left back and let him drift back on line at this young stage.
I go with the literal cast first. 10 yards off line on a 100 yard blind is enough for me to stop the dog and give a straight back with the opposite hand. 10 yards off line in the middle of a 200 yard blind I'm thinking about handling. If I read or have read suction to the fall I'll handle when I read the suction even if the dog isn't off line very much. I'm trying to read the dog's momentum here.

I'll try not to give the dog an over for a minor line correction. He knows where the blinds are in pattern blinds. If you give an over and he takes a couple steps in the over direction and then scallops back to the blind, you've just taught him to scallop his overs. I don't want my dogs doing that. I'd much rather teach him the literal cast and since he knows where the pattern blind is it could be enough for him to turn away from the suction of the fall to remember the pile and go right to that. Then the dog has a successful repetition of taking a literal cast to the blind. If he scallops or digs back the straight back you stop him again and repeat the cast. If he digs back again you stop him and use attrition. You are teaching casting away from an old fall here. I would much rather move up closer to the dog than go to an over momentum cast. Go to attrition by calling him in stopping and handling again from the closer position after the 2nd or 3rd dig back. Next time I set this up, I probably set the mark further away from the line to the blind than this one was.

Don't get me wrong, everyone will have to go to a momentum cast now and then when training a young dog. I just try to not have to do them very much.
 
#10 ·
gotcha so in this case literal casting is fine and actually instructional to the dog ("oh yea i'm going after a blind not a mark") thats what i needed to hear.

copterdoc i could of swore lardy showed a diagram where he sat up a multiple diversion where one was to the outside of the left pattern blind and another diversion between the middle and right pattern blind
 
#12 · (Edited)
Just curious.

How many of you that ran pattern blinds, then pattern blinds with diversion, had a dog that ran its first COLD blinds competently?
Competently able to take a LOT of whistles, and used to being cast multiple times?? In other words a dog that handled relativly well?

It seems to me , Pattern Blinds,,, might be a step in Lardy, that COULD be skipped.

Gooser
 
#57 ·
I have Gooser. To me pattern blinds is the most important path to cold blinds. I do 5 not 3 and in a location where cover and terrain push the dog off line. Once the dog knows the piles well I start to handle and straighten out those lines. Dog learns momentum, lining, stopping and casting all at the same time. Plenty of whistles and casting here. Then adding marks and diversions leads to more whistles and casting. I spend WAAAAY more time here than TT. I have a dog right now that runs TT flawlessly after just 4 days of it. I see no need to continue and nothing more being learned. If I tried to do things the way Mr Farmer does I would not be able to produce the same results as he. He is THE MAN and I cannot make things work the way he does. I am big on lining, a good lining dog needs less casting but as with everything thee must be balance. A dog that can take and carry a line as well as his casts is what I want to see in my dogs.
 
#15 ·
I think we're missing an important factor, the stickmen. As I read it the dog is doing fine on the pattern field but flaring away from the stickmen. Its important to make sure the dogs get comfortable staying tight to gun stations. Thus the purpose of adding them. Stick to literal casting, keep your standard for holding the line high and be especially careful about corrections around the stickmen. At this stage, mostly attrition vs burns.

/Paul
 
#16 ·
it was actually towards. left pattern blind. stickman was to the left 30 yards and mark was thrown left to right to where it was 15 yards off of the pattern blind line.


yesterday ran blind drills twice. once on left leg then once on the right leg (with stickmen on the outside of the lines). not one handle. it seems that if i dont get a situation to handle in then how will we progress? or has he progressed enough that he knows the cue "dead" means i'm running a blind? i think one more day of blind drills to sure it up then we will go to the more complex diversions where they are between lines of the patterns (i.e. mark thrown between leg 1 and 2 and mark thrown between leg 2 and 3)
 
#17 · (Edited)
Take a look at this past thread on this subject, an take particular noteto /Pauls post #21.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?66989-Pattern-Blinds-and-Throwing-Marks/page2



So, again I ask,,,For those that have run Patterns, How competently does the dog handel?
Is he use to many whistles? Is he use to being given many casts on a blind?

It seems to me, that spending just a mere week on patterns, you still will have to eventually teach the dog to handel..
Why not go straight to that step, just as the dog comes out of the yard with a GOOD DOSED of the T and TT,, and Casting wagon wheels, and lining wagon wheels??

Gooser
 
#19 ·
i cant answer your question as this is my first dog. but it would seem that it goes back to the trust thing. if he knows there is blind out there (taught vs cold) then he's probably more willing to trust your handling. i know if i was to of gone from TT to cold when i would of given an over or probably when i just sent him on back he'd look up and say "wait a minute i didnt see you plant anything there's nothing out there". whereas in pattern blinds he knows its out there and the distance and other factors (diversions, wind, terrain) may deter him momentarily but "have no fear your handler is here" to get you back on track. the dog would then beleive the casts rather than be aprehensive towards it.


nice thread link though. i think the forum has missed out on alot of info by not having captainjack around. he indeed was a Lardy afficianado.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Gooser! You are being naughty, trying to steer someone training their first dog away from their program. Bad Gooser!

I did appreciate the link to the Farmer article, though.

The TRT pattern blinds teach the dog all kinds of things. Dog learns angle backs. Dog learns lining. Dog learns to run blinds and marks on the same field. Dog learns poison bird blinds. Dog learns to run tight to the gunner. Dog learns to run under the arc. One drill does all this. Probably more.

P.S. I looked at the thread you referenced. Not all PBs are created equal. The dog is supposed to learn handling from them in TRT. Once they learn the destinations, the diversions are piled on to teach handling.

P.S.S. I did not understand any of this when I first did them!
 
#23 ·
Gooser, this is the way I see it that Renee stated. There are so many things you teach in pattern blinds and it is because it gives pup familiar ground to work on, a place to build on. If you just skipped it, you would be just finding yourself hunting another way to teach these concepts. Its more that just running to a spot they know. Its adding factors and keeping momentem up.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I'm not trying to convince anyone to stray away from a program they are following,, but rather, just tyring to add discussion..
Its boring to just constantly hear "Just follow the program".

I would think, that the dog that has had a couple a weeks in patterns, will still struggle when sat down, and sent to a cold blind, on a new field.

I mean you are handling to a known location with patterns...

I would agree to the point of not spending much time on patterns,,, just get the dog the basic idea, then move on.... Move on to Cold blinds,, and THEN teach the dog to handel..

Dont see what the big deal is in MAYBE skipping the pattern step...

The dog will progress well as you run MANY, MANY, MANY blinds.. Confidence ,lines, and 'Go" will come in time.
 
#26 ·
I am a strong believer in pattern blinds. They are just another "baby step" to running the dog on cold blinds. However, I don't run the dogs into the ground on them. The major purpose for them is to teach handling in the field with the use of diversions as possible suction zones. I also use them to teach dry shots, poison birds, under the arc, etc. Don't worry about precision casting, cast to get the blind. Lardy advocates a delay from TT to the introduction of patterns to avoid another drill-like atmosphere for the patterns but a more "field retrieve" feel to the blinds. I don't spend nearly the amount of time teaching the locations of the pattern blinds that I would establishing the T in TT and progress to running the legs cold with orange bumpers when the dog is confident of the locations (even if I have to cast away from a diversion). If you have a dog that realizes the difference between running these taught blinds with diversions mixed in I think you've got it and many different setups in the pattern blind field can test the dog on this. I spend maybe 5-7 days doing this then move to taught blinds or simple colds then add diversions in different locations.

IMO running dogs on cold blinds, even simple ones, right out of TT has the potential to create extreme confusion especially if you try and add diversions. Popping, no-goes, bugging, can all be avoided or minimized by using the building blocks of the less drill-like activities such as patterns and simple taught blinds on the way to running blinds cold but that's just my :2c:
 
#27 ·
I guess what I was trying to say was; if you have to handle off the diversion, good! That's the purpose of the activity. "Okay Iam suppose to go to the blind when he says "dead bird" and get the mark when he says "mark"". Don't worry about lining the blinds perfectly that will come in time.
 
#32 · (Edited)
this is just me but i dont think that'd be beneficial in the least. kind of like training to fail. there's no way the dog could win (winning be lining the blind with no casts) to me the whistle is a very minor correction. anytime you blow a sit whistle its because your are trying to stop a behavior from happening or that is happening. if the dog takes off on the way you line him up and then you blow the whistle to cast him to the other blind that is telling the dog "you didnt run a straight enough line" i was lined up to this other blind (even though you weren't)

anybody feel free to correct me on the whistle being a correction. it just seems like when my guy is running hard his head goes down a little when he hears that whistle because he's thinking "oh man i thought i had it right" then when he turns around he's eagerly awaiting the cast to get it right and get the bumper
 
#31 ·
The last part of pattern blinds that Lardy sets up has the blinds listed "A,B, and C" and the guns as "G1 and G2". If I take a dog up to that set-up cold, with orange bumpers at the ends of the pattern blinds and can run A, G1, B, C, G2, A or any other order with a couple or no handles I move on to taught and simple cold blinds with diversions.
 
#39 ·
Does anyone know, would it be consistent with Lardy to direct dog to one of the blinds, or the diversion, and then handle them to a different destination?
this is just me but i dont think that'd be beneficial in the least. kind of like training to fail. there's no way the dog could win (winning be lining the blind with no casts) to me the whistle is a very minor correction. anytime you blow a sit whistle its because your are trying to stop a behavior from happening or that is happening. if the dog takes off on the way you line him up and then you blow the whistle to cast him to the other blind that is telling the dog "you didnt run a straight enough line" i was lined up to this other blind (even though you weren't)anybody feel free to correct me on the whistle being a correction. it just seems like when my guy is running hard his head goes down a little when he hears that whistle because he's thinking "oh man i thought i had it right" then when he turns around he's eagerly awaiting the cast to get it right and get the bumper
I admit I am not the smartest trainer, so let me ask you this Blake,

How is T and TT any different from what you are objecting to here? you line the dog up and stop it and recast to another pile in TRAINING. and you give the dog many "free runs" to the pile.
 
#40 ·
:kevinismybrother thank you for correcting me. i never really thought about that. maybe the topic mitty talks about is worth a little discussion.

:copterdoc yes the blind is taught and yes he knows exactly where its at. but when you get up to diversions you hopefully are having to handle. its a refresher course that shows the dog where you want him to go. example: he fades right. whistle. no i want you to go left back. he fades left. whistle. no i want you to go right back. the dog knows it's back there and is having to jog its memory where its at by your casts. its a one-to-one communication practice and to me establishes trust. trust that like you said prepares for next step. seems like if you skipped this step the dog would have more bad habits instilled into it by going straight to cold blinds. more no-go's. more pops. more cast refusals.
 
#41 · (Edited)
:copterdoc yes the blind is taught and yes he knows exactly where its at. but when you get up to diversions you hopefully are having to handle. its a refresher course that shows the dog where you want him to go. example: he fades right. whistle. no i want you to go left back. he fades left. whistle. no i want you to go right back. the dog knows it's back there and is having to jog its memory where its at by your casts. its a one-to-one communication practice and to me establishes trust. trust that like you said prepares for next step..
Yes.

You ARE trying to "have to" handle.

.....seems like if you skipped this step the dog would have more bad habits instilled into it by going straight to cold blinds. more no-go's. more pops. more cast refusals........
If your idea of "winning" is lining the legs, rather than by successfully handling to a place that the dog doesn't want to go, you are going to keep "winning" for the wrong reasons.

When the dog "wins" for the wrong reason, it learns to do the WRONG THING.
Because, doing the wrong thing, was what worked.

If the dog is so thoroughly conditioned to return to each leg of the pattern blind, that it disregards a sexy diversion due to it's absolute certainty that it will "win" by lining that leg of the pattern, you have actually created a big problem for your early cold blinds.

Because, cold blinds don't have the very element that the dog was relying on to "win".
And since you so thoroughly reinforced the dog's reliance on knowing the destination, rather than relying on YOUR CAST, you shot yourself in the foot.

Now you need to untrain. And THAT'S not going to be easy. It's probably going to get you..........
more no-go's. more pops. more cast refusals
..........that wouldn't have been a big issue, if you had spent more time worrying about handling on the three-legged-pattern, rather than lining the legs.
 
#43 ·
It's not the drills that matter.
It's not the methods, that make the difference.

It's what you get out of them.
It's the objectives.

There is no "perfect drill" that can't be done wrong.
They all have the potential to teach dogs things that we DON'T want the dog to learn.

The key is realizing that "beating" the drill isn't the objective. The objective is to train the dog.
 
#50 · (Edited)
Try this,, any better?

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?76602-Double-T-When-do-you-move-on

Post #5 in particular...

Threw a diversion bird a couple a three times,,, ( different sessions)

had chairs,, other marks ect..

Didnt spend a whole lot of time on it,, timming was at the end of TT and the dog was running it very consistently, only just enough ,, so the person training me told it was time to start casting wagon wheels,, then on to cold blinds...
 
#53 ·
With this dog,,, I decided to try and listen to experience talk,,,,, and not try to figger things out on my own!!!

It has been a wonderful experience...

I owe a very special person the World!!:):)

I still cant figger out why she puts up with me. :):)

Gooser
 
#54 · (Edited)
If there is one thing that was overly stressed to me... "teach the dog to handle."

and,, How quick things can deteriorate, if you dont strive to uphold what things you taught the dog..

another problem of mine,, actually 1 of a long,, long list..
 
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