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interesting (?) observation about ichthyosis affected Goldens

7K views 21 replies 10 participants last post by  hotel4dogs 
#1 ·
Ichthyosis seems to be a fairly common topic on the Golden Retriever Forum lately as people and veterinarians are learning what it is.
One thing that I noticed is that a lot of peope whose Golden has been diagnosed as affected have also commented that the dog has IBD or lots of food intolerances.
I posted and specifically asked whether people have noticed their dog with ichthyosis also has stomach issues, and the answers are coming back "yes".
So just wanted to put it out here, too. Not sure if anyone even has an affected dog, but if you do, or know of one, just curious if the theme of accompanying stomach issues is just a coincidence, or are they more common in Ichthyosis affected dogs???
Thanks for any observations or comments.
 
#6 ·
I have owned several that never had stomach issues. They all live happy healthy lives.I do know that my effected dogs had various degrees of flakingness. From barely noticeable to all out flaking.
I don't think that it is life threatening nor something to panic about. It is more of a pain in the butt. IMHP :)
Sue
 
#7 ·
ah well, there goes that theory!
Thanks for the replies.
My 14 year old boy was affected, but I never knew it until hindsight.
My 5 year old (avatar dog) is a carrier.
 
#10 ·
My Tea has Ich and has NO stomach issues. Very healthy. I find that a superb diet controls skin issues. I know of a second golden with Ich and she is fed RAW. Her coat is spectacular. Is there a direct correlation between diet/skin issues - in this case, ichthyosis? Don't know.
 
#11 ·
Tony,
I fed my effected omega 3 fish oils and they had good diets.It made me feel good , but it didn't really hold down the flakes.
I posted on another threads on this subject what I purchased and used topically. I hated shampooing all the time so I used the topical stuff. it made them smell great and it seemed to work because from what I understand this flakiness is an outer layer dermis ? The more you brush and fuss with the coat the more you aggrevated the coat.
Like I said before.........I think that effected dogs have different degrees of flakiness.
Sue
 
#12 ·
guess my theory had lots of holes in it! Oh well. Just a thought.
In any case, I think it's good to open up discussions about ichthyosis.
 
#14 ·
It is a good question, especially since you had experience with issues that seemed might go along with ichthyosis.

There are, more than likely, not enough responses to this thread to really make a decision..some may not have any other issues...but is there a chance that some dogs do??

Barb, might you direct your question to the research of ichthyosis? ..GRCA and any other resource that recognized the issue, did the science etc.

Our Ranger is clear, but Sebec is a carrier and his sire Steeple Hill Ranger is affected. Would be interesting to know if he (Steeple Hill Ranger) had any of the isses that you describe that your older guy had.

Maybe that was never researched beyond the initial issue..flaking.

Good thread.

Judy
 
#16 ·
I will poke around and see if someone is interested in pursuing the idea. Maybe a vet student looking for a study to do?
It would be hard because so many dogs seem to be affected but asymptomatic.
 
#17 ·
I think that they are symptomatic. (Different degrees of flakiness) Maybe not as much as some I have seen or heard about.
My Ginger had a greasy type coat. She often smelled like a dirty dishcloth left for days . I wonder if that was a type of icth.?
Talking is good. :)
Sue
 
#18 ·
I think you're right, Sue, they are symptomatic to some degree but in some it's so minor, and clears up as they mature, so it's never really diagnosed.
My boy that I lost last year I believe was a classic case.
As a young puppy, he had thin fur on his belly, and lots of flaky skin. His belly skin was very dark. By the time he was about 9 or 10 months old, though, he seemed to have outgrown whatever it was.
Then when he was about 2-ish, he developed very greasy skin, and constant flaking. Sometimes he would get secondary staph infections. The vet diagnosed it as a type of sebohhrea (sp?), secondary to allergies. We tried various allergy prescriptions, none made any difference. Put him on prescription food, again no difference. Were finally able to manage it pretty well with baths twice a week, one with chlor-hexiderm shampoo and the other with a coal-tar (sulphur?) preparation which stunk to high heaven.
After about a year of that, it seemed to clear up and we didn't see any issues in him at all until he was about 8. I'll leave out the long story of his being diagnosed with asymptomatic IBD, but he ended up having his spleen removed at age 8 and then the greasy skin and flakiness came back with a vengance.
He had it until he died at age 14 (unrelated causes).
So looking back, I'm sure that was ichthyosis. When he would be groomed, it looked like snow under him on the table.
 
#19 ·
I emailed the GRCA health foundation, and asked about a link between ichthyosis and stomach issues. Here is the reply I got from Ann Hubbs, GRCA Health and Genetics committee (posted here with permission):

"That is a very interesting hypothesis indeed. The genetic cause of ichthyosis in Golden Retrievers was first described at the Canine and Feline Genomics Conference in 2010 and was published last year (PubMed link is at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22246504 ) . The same genetic mutation that causes ichthyosis in Golden Retrievers also causes a form of ichthyosis in people. Golden Retriever ichthyosis is extremely common in French Golden Retrievers (roughly a third are affected) and when I attended the 2010 conference, there was no mention of other systems being affected. I tried to find my copy of the paper this morning and, of course, could not – but I don’t believe that effects on the GI system have been described. On the other hand, the gene that is mutated in Golden Retriever ichthyosis plays a role in the lipid barrier of the skin – so it is not impossible that it could play a role in GI tract barriers. Now that the gene has been identified, such studies would be possible. Therefore, the short answer is that there is no data that we know about that indicates that anything other than skin is affected, but no studies have been conducted (“the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”).

However, in the email traffic that I receive from the H&G, the most common manifestation that breeders see is dandruff in puppies that becomes almost unnoticeable as they mature, with a smaller group much more severely affected. Of the 3926 currently in our online Health Survey http://www.offa.org/surveys/survey_golden.html , only 7 were reported as being diagnosed with ichthyosis. I strongly suspect that many cases of ichthyosis in Golden Retrievers are misdiagnosed as, or complicated by, other conditions – it is easy to see how changes in the lipid barrier of the skin could increase allergies and seborrhea and clinically would probably not be identified as two conditions (i.e. ichthyosis and atopic dermatitis). My impression is that when American Golden Retrievers are tested, there are a lot more cases and carriers than we thought but less than in France."
 
#20 ·
Ren who is a littermate to Tonys Tea has ich, but it was very mild even as a puppy and she seems to have out grown it. However, she does have sensitivity to certain foods and had ear infections and itchy skin until she was put on venison diet.
Looking back the flaky skin stopped about the time she went on venison. She will have Gi issues, ESP diarrhea if she eats corn.

The omega 3 fish oils I give are not for skin. The omega 3 are proven anti inflammatories and are given to my dogs to help protect their joints. They get omega 3 and Dasuqin daily from the day they come to live with me.

Dawn
 
#21 ·
I just received the following additional email from Ann:

"...I probably should add that I am also very concerned that we do not over select against Goldens with ichthyosis. This is one of the first genetic tests we have available and we know that roughly two thirds of Golden Retrievers of European lines and a significant number of American Golden Retrievers will be either affected or carriers. We also know that in American Goldens, at this time, the most frequent manifestation may be dandruff. While it is reasonable to use the test to guide the breeding of ichthyosis carriers and affected Golden Retrievers, we will undoubtedly soon have genetic tests for diseases that are far more serious than ichthyosis (e.g SAS). I believe that it is important that our gene pool remains diverse and we do not narrow it in an attempt to eliminate the gene for ichthyosis just because we have a test for this gene.



Ann

Ann F. Hubbs DVM, PhD ...."
 
#22 ·
And the response from Rhonda Hovan (GRCA Health committee, AKC Health committee):

"...As Ann mentioned, we're not aware of any GI manifestations of the gene identified as causing ichthyosis. However, the wide variation in expression of the disease among dogs tested as affected indicates that there is still much we don't know about ichthyosis. Factors that cause these differences by modifying gene expression could be another gene, but more likely are epigenetic. Epigenetic factors include all environmental exposures, beginning prenatally. Further, it is also likely (based on early data in dogs but lots of data in humans) that many GI symptoms are also influenced by epigenetic factors, beginning prenatally.

This leads to two ways that ichthyosis and GI disorders can be associated other than by heritable genes. First, they may share environmental factors that increase the expression of each disease. An example of this from humans is that it is now known that the microbiome (the total inventory of all the microbial communities found throughout the body) is altered when a baby is born by C-section instead of vaginally. This is believed to be the cause of elevated rates of GI disorders, asthma, allergy, and many other conditions associated with birth by C-section. In humans, therefore, some children will express both GI disorders and asthma -- but the connection is an epigenetic exposure that increases the risk for expression of each condition, rather than a genetic link.

A second way that two diseases can be linked epigenetically is that expression of one disease can trigger changes in the body that increase expression of the other disease. Again using an example from humans, we know that obesity causes low-grade inflammation that often persists for decades. This inflammation is part of the pathway that leads, over time, to other diseases such as cardiovascular disease, cancer, and diabetes. So most of us have heard that obesity is linked to cardiovascular disease, cancer, and diabetes, and in part that link can be traced to the underlying inflammation caused by obesity.

All in all, your observation is very interesting, and thank you for bringing this to our attention! There is certainly much we don't know yet about ichthyosis, so it's important to take things slowly, because rushing to remove the gene from the population has the potential to harm genetic diversity and lead to greater problems down the road.

Finally, Purina did a wonderful article on this topic a few months ago, attached. This will also appear in the next GRNews, but you are welcome to share it by email too since many people on the various Lists may not be GRCA members. And you have my permission to forward and cross-post my email too.

Best,

Rhonda..."

and a link to the article by Purina Research:

https://purinaproclub.com/Dog/ResourceLibrary/HealthGeneticsTraining/Health/82277930-64c1-4920-9508-674af73746f5
 
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