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Remote controlled gun fire?

8K views 41 replies 20 participants last post by  Kenneth Niles Bora 
#1 ·
Training alone using zinger wingers. Is there something I can buy to replicate 2 or 3 shots from a shotgun? The winger fires a shot simultaneously with the launch, but I'd like shots when bird is up to train for that level of excitement when I don't have a bird boy.

Sometimes I feel like all of our work alone to train marking scenarios and live fliers is all for naught when we get to a test and there's so much gunfire causing distraction we haven't trained for.
 
#2 ·
Is your dog steady enough for you to walk out and toss a bird and pop a couple blank 12ga shells? Then walk back and send the dog? I have also stepped out a couple steps away from my dog, and fired a blank 12ga shell when I hit the remote release on the winger. It teaches the dog to look in the direction the gun is pointed in.

They have to make some contraption you are asking about though, I'm sure one of the pro's will be along to point you in the direction of it.
 
#4 ·
Do you have a bumper boy launcher? I have used one in the field loaded with a blank but without setting a bumper on the shaft, I do this for three different training situations;

a) young dog running cold blinds, I will fire the shot from close to, but deep of the planted blind to aid them as is done occasionally in some SH tests

b) used it as part of a marking set up where dog is cued on a mark and expected to make the AoF even though it saw no bird/bumper thrown, birds or bumpers are placed a throws distance to one side or the other of a stick man or prominent hold blind

c) dry diversion shot when running a blind with an advanced dog

Same thing can be done with any remote launchers but timing can be tricky with say a max 5000 and may not work well for shooting at the top of the arc, but of course the max replicates a Shotgun better than a BB, hope this helps.
 
#6 · (Edited)
I use the bumper boy without bumpers also. It takes three hands to work all the electronics and keep on hand on the ecollar. If you wait too long for a third shot he will look back at the stickman or holding blind. So the timing has to be good.

My sequence that I try for in faux flyers, is fire bb, launch, fire bb2.

I also use the bb without dummies for diversions on way back from memory bird prior to running blind. I had a problem with this at his last hunt test where the diversion was from the holding blind on the memory bird. I have done this several times in training and now he doesn't pay any attention to the dry pop.

I use the red loads which are the most powerful and loudest.

Maybe with BB being out of business you can pick up a used one cheap.
 
#12 ·
Wayne this is what I do and sometimes slip up with all the gadgets!!:eek: Dog doesn't care as long as it goes off!:) I use yellow but will have to try red. Thx
 
#9 ·
Jennifer, I too am in need of a multi-shot mechanism.....

i made these "bumper boys" that shoot the retriever r trainer type bumpers, and link w/ the old style tritronic releases

i use them very often in the manner that Wayne suggests.

i REALLY wish i could come up with a 209 primer solution for multi shots, press button BAM, press button BAM....but i've yet to do so!

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17566&d=1394156256
 
#10 ·
Darrin, I can do that all day long and use wingers with live birds, no problem. The problem arises with gunfire. Especially the second and third shots, which is what I need to replicate. Not a big fan of shooting my shotgun from the line, really either due to hearing loss.

pwyxit: That's a neat set up. Would be nice to have a revolver type mechanism with a remote.
 
#11 ·
I guess I was suggesting you go out there with a three shot shotgun and let er rip when you kick the winger.

Then quickly run out and grab the bird when she breaks! Might need too make sure you're not to close to here when you do it, so you have time to get to the bird first.

Btw if you ever hunted your dog out of a duck blind it would be just like shooting from the line.
 
#14 ·
Years ago the folks at BB told me they had rigged a blank shooting revolver to a servo motor. Pushing the remote would cycle the revolver.
 
#18 ·
I wonder if you could get by with a high quality remote-controlled digital audio recorder/player? You could record gunshot, and then place the recorder somewhere nearby but at a location that would keep the dog looking in the correct direction? It wouldn't be ideal of course, but perhaps a less expensive alternative? Kind of like those CD's they sell to get your dogs used to sounds of field trials and hunt tests?
 
#20 ·
Don't think you could get the volume you need out of a recording without a high watt amp and speaker which makes it expensive.

I make gadgets and junk all the time just never build to sell, I'm more of a ******* engineer.
 
#21 ·
I just thought of another way, make a holder for a starter pistol and servo to pull the trigger and with a spring it will return to neutral which will advance the cylinder for the next shot. Wire it to the other side of your release and there you have it, should have a decent firing rate. If you want faster firing just go to a faster rated servo from a model airplane store. I used to fly rc planes and once built an f-14 I fired small rockets off of using a servo switch to light the rocket motors.
 
#23 ·
Jennifer

Heres goofy Goosers suggestion..

Gadgets! Good for training, and making set ups more convenient for us...

I have always had really bad creepy dogs. They moved a LOT at the line... My hunting standards were also very low. I too jump shot exclusivly.

With this new dog...I got help with training. I cannot tell you the number of times at training days that I have been repremanded for missing the opportunity to correct for a "sit " violation.. Most all those times, where instances where I was in the holding blind. approaching the line, or at the line getting ready to run.. Many times also, it was after I had run the set up, and was picking up birds to put back in the rack, or starting a conversation about how we did.. Flinch would move!! Very slightly,,, and I would get scolded as to my sit standard.

I was told,, even during the week,, when with the dog,, to keep my eye open for opportunity to correct for a sit violation. It was amazing the opportunitys that exists that would give you a strong excitement factor, that didnt include field work.. when I started paying more attention to these circumstances,and really being critical about ANY movement,, Any time,, my "Sits" really improved

I think running the Y drill, by yourself, from a very close distance , could help you get instances where you could enforce a very high "sit"standard.

You can watch an example of the "Y " drill on Bill Hillmans Blog on top of page.

My Take!

Gooser
 
#25 ·
I had a few wild dogs last year and I set wingers up and shot flyers from the line. Duck calls live rounds and used my homers as fly away birds and so on. Holding blinds and set ups like the real deal. They know when you are using a popper pistol or a primer pistol or any other fake sound maker.When something is not working you have to try something different. You have to also ask how you got to this point in the first place. Good luck.
 
#26 ·
It is true, I have always been sloppy in training on the way to the line letting her race me to the holding blind, letting her walk 2 feet in front at "heel" to any destination and as Gooser pointed out, on the way off line, letting her fetch up the pile of birds or bumpers from the ground.

For the past month, I've started a new regime. I developed a whole routine for us.
•Instead of her running the field while I set up, she stays in the truck.
•Before I open truck door, I lay a mat on the ground for her to come sit on at heel.
•She sits before I open door, I invite out and she gets on mat.
•Leash up, say "heel" and we walk at heel to first holding blind, stopping and backing up whenever she inches forward.
•I am conscious of being calm and slow. She is invited into the blind or onto the mat.
•We take a moment to survey the set up
•If she creeps when first bird goes, no bird

We've pretty well cured the problem with marks - though I haven't truly tested the theory with real other gunners shooting the gun and live duck, just live pigeon and a .22 .

If I had a remote repeating gun, I could work on withholding reward for the sit, heel standard when training alone. Which would be nice.

Brett - are you MacGruber or something? I hope you invent something so I can buy it!

Waterdogs, I think I may just try that, that sounds like it may work!

Darrin, please advise on your theory. At this point, I feel too close to the problem and am having trouble thinking up conditioning strategy. Thanks for your thoughts.
 
#28 ·
She knows the whole routine, from racing you to the holding blind to beating you to the mat, to creeping when the birds go down.

She knows that when you're standing next to her, the next thing that happens after a gun shot is that she gets released to retrieve.

She also knows that when you're standing out in the field and she sees a fall/hears a shot, she won't be released until you walk back to wherever she is an release her.

She's doing the same task (heel to the line, sit, watch birds and then retrieve them), but in two different contexts. First context you standing next to her. Second context you away from her.

So what would happen if, for some period of time, every time a bird was shot, you had her do one or two other behaviors before she was sent? What would happen if you made the point at which she gets released random? What would happen if for a month she didn't make a retrieve and did nothing but obedience behaviors every time a bird was shot?

What would her expectation of what happens next be after that period of time and what effect might it have on what she does while the birds are going down?

My best guess would be, and this is only a guess, that by resetting her expectation as to what will happen next in the context of you standing next to her, she will do something different when the birds are tossed.

She's just back chaining the bird/shot as part of the release sequence. Change the sequence and make it impossible for her to anticipate the send because she has no idea what's coming next.

Just thinking out loud on how to solve it without corrections.
 
#31 ·
Yep, good ideas. It definitely works to do something unexpected in the sequence. Now that I have read your post, I see we have actually been doing this sort of, without realizing it and it works. Just by switching up every time: several singles, a double, triples, delayed triple, or run a single, two blinds then the other two singles, etc. Her creeping has all but disappeared. Good idea Darrin. This past week, I've even been heeling her facing the opposite direction of the set up, because I saw you do it in one of your videos. When I saw that, I said "That would be very hard to do with my girl". Now that we've done it a few times, it's not hard...

But I would really like to be able to fire a gun shot with a mark whenever I can to desensitize her to that. Get crackin' Brett!
 
#29 ·
Maybe take her to line and run a few blind before marks and if she is crazy just run the blinds. I had dog that was vocal and I did this and it worked pretty well. I am never afraid to call folks I know and brain storm when I have a question. To bad you couldn't get with a training group.
 
#32 · (Edited)
In all honesty Jen, she'd be getting 1 out of every 10 marks right now and there would be a different behavior after every fall...

I might reward those behaviors with a bumper toss off to the side or, in your case, some food, but I would have her actually retrieving only a very small percentage of what she saw thrown. I might also stake her out and have her watch the other dogs work while being denied all the retrieving.

Make a nice happy game out of it but randomize the sequences and the rewards.

I THINK that would go a long way to solving the issue.

The clue is... she'll wait for you to walk back to her from the field without creeping. When the sequence is different, steady dog. You just have to adapt those tactics to what happens when you're together at the line.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Frankly, she is on the verge of breaking. She is a spit fire. I don't allow her to break and make sure she is sitting at heel before sending.

During adjustments, if I am calm and doing it right, she will just move her front feet to adjust her aim. If I'm amped up and being a bad trainer (Picture Mitty's tap dancing daffy duck video) , she picks up her rear to do a whole body adjust.

She is my first real trial bred dog. And since I am not a compulsion based trainer, I have allowed her a lot of lee way in the interest of building momentum. I believe we have achieved a good level of momentum and reliability now, so am starting to really require and refine the line manners. She is doing very well learning to be more precise and in control. But it is a process. And a fun project. She is a special dog who learns very quickly and is great at adapting new details.

My new 4 mos old pup, however, is a hard headed male and will require more steadiness and control from the get-go!
 
#35 ·
I knew a guy who played you tube mp3's out his car stereo. great sound effects
 
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