Classic stuff there Kip
Lastly, I agree with Kip, on post #29. Hope that is clear enough for all.
My singular response to the inquiry is based on the definition of selection in general as defined by Rex and well chronicled by Dennis and others. My first exposure was in 1980 when first bird selection was in vogue. We spent an inordinate amount of time working on the concept in training but as Dennis stated not all dogs were reliable selectors in competition including my Percy (FC-AFC Trumarc's Hot Pursuit). Sometime in the next generation of dogs we followed the principles of second bird selection as defined by Rex and my post #2. Later Rex adopted the let the dog get whatever bird it wants approach which has come to be defined as "ideal selection". While I am still philosophically wedded to second bird selection I find strict adherence to the principle is at times disadvantageous and I stray to some hybrid form of selection. What I have learned is that sometimes you have to try to influence your dog and sometimes you have to let your dog influence you. Such are my objections to hypothetical dog training and labeling. The important part is pick a system which suits you and your dog and be consistent, dogs tend to thrive on order and consistency.
Agreed ...Also as you stated some times we must allow the dog the right to choose or run the show to be successful...
For argument purpose only ...
"Eventually, Rex Carr abandoned primary selection because dogs AND handlers were unreliable at doing it. It wasn’t reasonable to pursue with all dogs. Later, he pursued picking up the short bird last. Dave Rorem trained extensively with Rex in the early 90’s when Rex preached this approach. Dave adopted Rex’s philosophy and later coined the term “Ideal Selection” which today he defines as “getting any bird at any time”. Of course, because Rorem has pursued picking up the short bird last after one or two longer birds, now some people think Ideal selection is short bird last (just as some thing secondary is always short bird second). Steve S
If the dog wants to pick up the last bird down and is allowed/released to do so , is that any type of(handler) selection at all ?????
If the dog is pulled off the last bird down and sent to retrieve any other bird in the setup, is that not primary selection?
When the dog returns with the first bird it has picked up, and the handler then picks out and sends the dog for the second bird to be picked up, no matter in which order it was thrown, or where it resides in the field, why is that not termed secondary selection ? After all it is the bird the handler decided was to be picked up second.
Ed's point about dogs is well described. One of my MH dogs, Trapper, has historically been great at selection for me. Regardless if its a flyer or not, he will pretty much let me pick the birds and off he goes. He is a full brother to Zeus (FC/AFC Pure Labs Skys The Limit) that Pete Goodale owned. While not quite as talented as his brother, he's a very good marking dog and is comfortable on the line letting me pull the trigger. The month we ran a master test at Peppers and in the first series the first bird was a little nothing bird thrown into water towards an island, the middle second bird was the key tough bird down a hill across a road across water onto the backside of an island with thick cover. Most dogs struggled on this bird. Go bird was a flyer down the shore shot into water/lilly pads. Trap watched the birds go down and immediately locked onto the middle bird and I once tried to have him come around for the flyer, he told me clearly he wanted that middle bird. There was no reason to argue with him, it was "the" bird in that series so I let him settle and sent him. Now this was probably the first time ever he's clearly communicated I need this bird and it worked out as he nailed the series and went on to pass. Next two series he was same old Trapper. There is a time and place for selection, regardless of a perceived definition of what it is. Handling is an art. Reading dogs is an art. Knowing the dog your working with is priceless. When i attended the Rorem seminar he talked about Ideal Selection and two things stuck in my head as he talked about it.
1. It takes a very good dog to consistently succeed at Ideal Selection. They have to be a great marker, calm, confident, and wise.
2. It takes an experienced handler to know when not to get in the way of a dog capable of Ideal Marking. In the rare dogs that can do this, handlers typically muck it up trying to follow traditional perceived handling methods brought on by rigid thinking of how things should be done.
As Susan stated, you can debate the definition of what secondary selection is, at the end of the day you have to know your dog, know its strength/weaknesses and know what your game plan is for running the test in front of you. Call it what you want....