[QUOTE=Labs;1145539]A dog that breaks the sit and creeps on the honor is not automatically dropped....[/QUOTThis , breaking sit and creep , is totally different from what the OP described in their post. There the dog got up, left to sniff, and return to the truck.
Forgive me for coming in on your thread from across the sea!
The original post was a clarification on rules. I can't comment on them ..mainly because I don't know all your rules in a test or trial, and I've never entered one.
Over here we train extensively for the honour',whether that be in the shooting field on a walk up on live game being flushed and shot, or whether that is sitting at the line on a driven day with multiple game being shot. We also have zero tolerance to line manners (noise/movement/shuffle/lie downs/sniffing/marking/hard mouth/breaking/belly crawl ,in fact anything other than SIT! ) and all is conducted under the banner of 'Honouring' !...
For 'myself' I do extensive work in the field working multiple dogs 'non-slip' so they all 'honour' each other ,even the fire breather' that ''wants them all''!...I admire them!...because it is 'all of them'.
A fire breather' over here that 'breaks' or does not honour' has not been 'trained' to honour. Handlers that look for rules that exempt the training over here look for excuses in the training ,not the ability of the dog (imo).A dog that breaks/or does not honour in favour of the truck or some other interest over here,deserves the right to be trained right back on that truck before it is allowed to be in the honourable company again,rather than the argumentation or representation of the ruling (purely from my perception of rules;)) ..
It's just my two cents from a 'limeys' view, nothing personal or directive in any way.
I like the post above.
I hate to say this, but I suppose we need to define " Honor"
I think it means respect, and to be in the ready if needed.
The posture if lying down, to me doesn't represent respect.
Much like sitting down during the National Anthem.
Honoring ,to me , is a respectful postures gown to the working dog , much like military standing at attention.
And when it happens its a beautiful thing to watch, in my opinion.
Mike I'm going to disagree with the laying down - you are going to tell a Senior dog that just retrieved who is laying down quietly and honoring the working of the other dog is being disrespectful? I don't think dog's think like we do...I'm sorry but if Flash was here I'd tell him to piss on your leg and eat your samwhich if you told him he couldn't lay down on the honor! ;)
Originally Posted by MooseGooser
It's nothing personal, or even directive any individual dog!
Originally Posted by FOM
I would expect mine to be 'ready again'!?..not thinking ''the job is done''?..perhaps is a better way of explaining/interpretation?...I also believe dogs don't think like 'us'.
But I do believe that I want one that is ready to do it all over again.
Mine lay down in the kennel;)
But I respect your dog.
To answer the OP's question. If the honor dog gets up and leaves the area designated by the Judges, it is failing to complete the honoring portion of the test and warrants a zero in trainability. (The dog/handler chose to avoid a designed portion of the test while under judgement.)
That's about as simple as you can say it!...If you take out the 'by judges' and 'judgement' and replace with 'handler'?
Originally Posted by Swampcollie
One could train for this, rather than 'rule' on it? perhaps.
One of my dogs often lies down on the honor at a Field Trial.
Originally Posted by polmaise
The competitive dogs over here go the the line hundreds (even thousands) of times during their lives. They get so used to honoring for another dog that they know that after the honor the job is done.
You can't blame the dogs for thinking "the job is done"when they have never gotten another retrieve after honoring in their entire lives at a Field Trial...........different game here and not at all related to hunting.
As an aside, when hunting and this same dog is asked to honor while another picks up a bird, he is definitely ready for another retrieve because he has learned that game too.
You cannot compare the two situations.
Wow, tough judges! I take the view that rules are written often without full fleshing out for every conceivable occurrence within their pervue this might be one reason why judging standards differ both in retriever competitions and in the courts.
If the situation the OP describes occurred before me as a judge I would look beyond the Letter of the rule and look at the Intent of the rules concerning the "Honour". The assumption of those who crafted the rules was that any dog on Honour, if it were to leave the line, might reasonably be expected to be headed in the direction of the marks...this is what many of us experience in training and it is understandable that this would be the common expectation in competition. The intent of the honour rule appears to be a test of a dog's ability to stifle its drive and desire and not retrieve or interfere with the retrieve of birds meant for another, this is just my interpretation only but it will affect how I would call this.
If this occurred in a hunt test, I would score down on trainability and nothing more providing there was no drama or disruption caused by the exiting dog.
If this occurred in a Field Trial, I would make note and it would weigh in with all other considerations in deciding upon a placement or otherwise.